John Horton, CIA executive
WBurg...@aol.com
He died in 2007. He found the Oswald tapes among other stuff in Win
Scott's office after Scott's death, according to Jefferson Morley's and
Michael Scott's book "Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden
History of the CIA" (2008, University Press of Kansas) (Michael is Win
Scott's son). Does anyone have further information about him?
Burgundy
John McAdams
And what evidence is there that he "found the Oswald tapes?"
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
WBurg...@aol.com
Well John, it's like this. The source is the aforementioned book
written by Jefferson Morley, who is a journalist I assume you are
aware of but he has written for The Washington Post, among other
publications and is currently National Editorial Director for the
Center of Independent Media. Michael Scott is Win's son or adopted son
and he had no idea really what his dad's life was about but one day,
after making formal written requests, he went to CIA headquarters to
get his dad's life story which had been cleared out of his office
under the supervision of Angleton by the aforementioned Horton. The
history was highly redacted and one of the men, unidentified,
explained, The Lee Harvey Oswald portions were classified.
The intro by Michael Scott claims: " In later years, John Horton would
swear it was all Janet Scott's idea.... Win Scott's widow had
voluntarily given the agency all that her late husband possessed in
the way of agency records..."
"Horton was 'amazed' at what he found but he didn't specify why. The
haul included a plethora of secret files, including tapes and
photographs of accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald
visiting communist embassies.... Horton lugged three large cartons and
four suitcases to an unmarked truck parked at the curb. The contents
of Win's home office were shipped back to CIA headquarters.....the
biggest batch, a stack of tapes three or four inches thick, was marked
'OSWALD'.""
Okay, enough. Sources? Yes. Here is what is listed: "See HSCA/Security
Classified Testimony of James Angleton 10/5/78 125-129, HSCA/Security
Classified Testimony 180-10110-1006, John Horton's cables Dispatch,
DIR to C/WH3, April 29, 1971, 8pp.; and Dispatch, Eyes Only to
Director, May 3, 1971. These two cables, written by Horton, Mexico
City Station Chief in 1971, were released by the CIA to Mark Zaid,
attorney for Michael Scott."
Other sources are interviews with Janet Scott and notes Michael kept.
Also, while I have not finished this well-written book, there is a
citation to one Paul Hartmann, a CIA officer, who saw the Oswald tapes
in the mid-1970s. "It was a packet of tapes maybe -- I never opened
the packet because there was no need for it," Hartmann said in secret
sworn testimony in 1978. "It must have been a packet three to four
inchers thick. It looked like several of these reel-to-reel boxes of
tapes. These came to me, I'm almost certain, from the Mexico City
branch....someone cleaned out a safe and sent it to me to put in the
file." SOURCE: HSCA classified testimony of Melbourne Paul Hartmann,
October 10, 1978, 29.
Author concludes tapes were probably destroyed January,
1987.Destruction order "AARB-CIA issues: Win Scott." Mark Zaid
interview, July 2007.
Burgundy
l
Gerry Simone
<WBurg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:31cc04c2-6552-407c...@h11g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
curtjester1
Definetly on my top ten of future reads. I recommend Harvey and Lee by
John Armstrong who spent 93 pages on Mexico City, which in his book is
equivalent to 150+ pages of a normal book. There is no doubt they had to
scramble and cover up down there. Hence, that is why LBJ and Hoover were
playing, 'Who's-On-First' right soon after the assassination of JFK
itself.
CJ
John McAdams
>On Jul 6, 9:04�pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> On 6 Jul 2009 22:04:06 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >He died in 2007. He found the Oswald tapes among other stuff in Win
>> >Scott's office after Scott's death, according to Jefferson Morley's and
>> >Michael Scott's book "Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden
>> >History of the CIA" (2008, University Press of Kansas) (Michael is Win
>> >Scott's son). Does anyone have further information about him?
>>
>> And what evidence is there that he "found the Oswald tapes?"
>>
>> .John
>> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
Well . . . I do appreciate your being willing to discuss evidence,
unlike (ahem) certain people here, who seem to think that assertion
can substitute for evidence.
>Well John, it's like this. The source is the aforementioned book
>written by Jefferson Morley, who is a journalist I assume you are
>aware of but he has written for The Washington Post, among other
>publications and is currently National Editorial Director for the
>Center of Independent Media. Michael Scott is Win's son or adopted son
>and he had no idea really what his dad's life was about but one day,
>after making formal written requests, he went to CIA headquarters to
>get his dad's life story which had been cleared out of his office
>under the supervision of Angleton by the aforementioned Horton. The
>history was highly redacted and one of the men, unidentified,
>explained, The Lee Harvey Oswald portions were classified.
>
>The intro by Michael Scott claims: " In later years, John Horton would
>swear it was all Janet Scott's idea.... Win Scott's widow had
>voluntarily given the agency all that her late husband possessed in
>the way of agency records..."
>
>"Horton was 'amazed' at what he found but he didn't specify why. The
>haul included a plethora of secret files, including tapes and
>photographs of accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald
>visiting communist embassies....
BZZZZZ!
My factoid detector goes off here.
I understand that there is a conspiracy scenario for why the CIA would
make the tapes disappear.
Unfortunately, internal secret CIA documents from the Sunday after the
assassination say the tapes had been erased.
We are not talking a CIA press release. We are not talking about what
the CIA told the WC or the HSCA. We are talking secret internal
documents.
As for "photographs of accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald
visiting communist embassies....," there is no way in the world that
the CIA would have any reason to conceal any Oswald photos. They
would fit the "official story."
Further, failure to produce the photos was a source of embarrassment
for the Agency.
>Horton lugged three large cartons and
>four suitcases to an unmarked truck parked at the curb. The contents
>of Win's home office were shipped back to CIA headquarters.....the
>biggest batch, a stack of tapes three or four inches thick, was marked
>'OSWALD'.""
>
>Okay, enough. Sources? Yes. Here is what is listed: "See HSCA/Security
>Classified Testimony of James Angleton 10/5/78 125-129, HSCA/Security
>Classified Testimony 180-10110-1006, John Horton's cables Dispatch,
>DIR to C/WH3, April 29, 1971, 8pp.; and Dispatch, Eyes Only to
>Director, May 3, 1971. These two cables, written by Horton, Mexico
>City Station Chief in 1971, were released by the CIA to Mark Zaid,
>attorney for Michael Scott."
Any idea which of these sources is the one for the "tapes of Oswald"
and the "photos of Oswald?"
>
>Other sources are interviews with Janet Scott and notes Michael kept.
Uh, oh! Sounds like another of those "witness comes forward with
explosive information after 45 years" things.
>Also, while I have not finished this well-written book, there is a
>citation to one Paul Hartmann, a CIA officer, who saw the Oswald tapes
>in the mid-1970s. "It was a packet of tapes maybe -- I never opened
>the packet because there was no need for it," Hartmann said in secret
>sworn testimony in 1978. "It must have been a packet three to four
>inchers thick. It looked like several of these reel-to-reel boxes of
>tapes. These came to me, I'm almost certain, from the Mexico City
>branch....someone cleaned out a safe and sent it to me to put in the
>file." SOURCE: HSCA classified testimony of Melbourne Paul Hartmann,
>October 10, 1978, 29.
I'm afraid I can't find this on the Mary Ferrell Archive, although I
did find a reference to this testimony. But the fellow in question
appears to have testified about the HTLINGUAL program, not about
Mexico City.
The AARC website appears to have the testimony, but it is down right
now.
So let's see what his testimony says when it becomes available.
>
>Author concludes tapes were probably destroyed January,
>1987.Destruction order "AARB-CIA issues: Win Scott." Mark Zaid
>interview, July 2007.
>
Looks like speculation.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
WBurg...@aol.com
> So another case of obstruction of justice?
>
Well I don't know. I've been trying to chase down these citations but I am
having some computer trouble finding them. At least we have names. In
further reading the book, I discover Michael Scott asked his stepmother
for his father's navy uniforms which his sister kept in a storage locker
and told him to help himself. He opened this trunk and found uniforms and
a ton of papers and correspondence, much about his real mother, and
datebooks and some interesting stuff about Philby and Angleton and Helms
and Dulles. The book is footnoted and Michael Scott is often the source or
the correspondence or the datebook. I've checked Newman's books and don't
find Horton or Hartmann in the INDEX. Anne Goodpasture is cited a lot but
I'm not there yet. Like the Waldrom book, I'm trying to find something
better than some anonymous source.
Burgundy
WBurg...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree CJ. These tapes are the Rosetta Stone. Notice they always say
"tapes were erased" but never say "we made copies" Typical CIA
doublespeak.
Steve Thomas
Just how many people do you think are involved in all these cover
ups? lol
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
I believe that the people down in Mexico City said that they had made
film a day that Oswald would have allegedly visited an embassy, and
had 16 photographs for the day, but they stopped filming for early
afternoon (D.A. Phillips) when the allegee would have been there. The
HSCA discovered that 10 feet of film had been removed. There were so
many discrepancies that being the Cuban Consulate vs. the Embassy and
paperwork on the 26th said the Pulse System was working fine by CIA
communication, and later denied the systems was there until December.
Even the photos of the mystery man didn't even jive when scrutinized
closely when Oswald was even in Mexico City. Basically, as I see it,
they just lied at will, and never even sent the CIA any of the photos
and tapes. There were leaks though...:).
CJ
curtjester1
investigation was to go with what protocol and monitoring the evidence
considered. Angleton and Dulles controlled the CIA and Hoover the FBI
and Dulles the WC. Once the boundaries are set with 'Oswald-only',
the rest just streamlined their investigations under them, or just
went along with mistakes and hiding of things, because that would be
considered being a good soldier. It probably bugged a lot of people,
but most knew if they were to go against the grain, their might be a
high price to pay.
CJ
> Hence, that is why LBJ and Hoover were
>
>
>
> > playing, 'Who's-On-First' right soon after the assassination of JFK
> > itself.
>
> > CJ- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Anthony Marsh
And those who did question were taken off the case and replaced.
Anthony Marsh
219,673.
Anthony Marsh
Which tapes? You mean the ones they say were erased BEFORE the
assassination, the ones which Win Scott, FBI agents and WC lawyers
listened to AFTER the assassination and said were NOT Oswald? Those tapes?
Or the real tapes which they destroyed after the assassination? You know,
the ones where Oswald is heard threatening to shoot the President? Do you
mean those tapes?
> We are not talking a CIA press release. We are not talking about what
> the CIA told the WC or the HSCA. We are talking secret internal
> documents.
>
You mean the TOP SECRET official lies to each other?
> As for "photographs of accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald
> visiting communist embassies....," there is no way in the world that
> the CIA would have any reason to conceal any Oswald photos. They
> would fit the "official story."
>
Sure, sure. Always apologize for The Agency no matter what.
> Further, failure to produce the photos was a source of embarrassment
> for the Agency.
>
I think they got over it. Imagine how embarrassed they'd be if it came out
that they recorded Oswald threatening to kill the President and covered it
up!
Sandy McCroskey
Speaking of reading lists, have you gotten around to Bugliosi's book
yet?
(And that's a rhetorical question, folks!)
Anthony Marsh
Speaking of reading lists, have you EVER gotten around to actually
reading the Warren Commission Report? No, I didn't think so. That's why
you are able to defend it.
WBurg...@aol.com
On the Mary Ferrel website, Melbourne Paul Hartmann's testimony is
there under HSCA Security Testimony and the pages are about 28-35 and
the ending. He received the box of tapes. He didn't listen to them
because "there was no need to." which seems because he was into every
other file available on "the idiot" (his words) so I don't think he is
being totally candid. He said the package was too bulky to file in an
ordinary file. Also one chapter from the aforementioned book (chapter
15) is available for reading. Phillips, Angleton and other testimony
is also in this section of the site. I haven't for some reason been
able to create a link to this testimony.
Burgundy
WBurg...@aol.com
Charlotte Bustos -- whoever she may be --- found a photo of Oswald at
CIA headquarters before the assassination according to the questioning
of Anne Goodpasture. Also, I learned from the Win Scott bio that Julia
Child (the cook) worked for the OSS. Did you guys know that? I asked
my wife who is reading the Julia and Julia book that they made this
Meryls Streep movie of if she knew that and she said, "Of course you
newbie idiot. Everyone knows that." Her name is Marcia... I now call
her Marsh.
Burgundy
Anthony Marsh
We knew that a long time ago. BTW, she lived in our area and I used to
see her in the grocery stores. Also Priscilla McMillan.
John McAdams
>On Jul 6, 9:04�pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>> On 6 Jul 2009 22:04:06 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >He died in 2007. He found the Oswald tapes among other stuff in Win
>> >Scott's office after Scott's death, according to Jefferson Morley's and
>> >Michael Scott's book "Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden
>> >History of the CIA" (2008, University Press of Kansas) (Michael is Win
>> >Scott's son). Does anyone have further information about him?
>>
>> And what evidence is there that he "found the Oswald tapes?"
>>
>> .John
>> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
>On the Mary Ferrel website, Melbourne Paul Hartmann's testimony is
>there under HSCA Security Testimony and the pages are about 28-35 and
>the ending.
Do you perhaps mean "History Matters?"
The search on the Mary Ferrell only turns up some stuff relating to
LTLINGUAL.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
WBurg...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
No it's on the Ferrell Site under "HSCA Security Classified Testimony."
Page 2. #29. HSCA Interview Melbourne Paul Hartmann. 10 Oct. 1978. Page 29
et seq. It may be on the other site but he talks about the package of
tapes and it's got to be the same thing Horton removed because of the size
and that it came from Mexico. Later on in the Morley book Michael Scott
attempts to get these tapes (Approx Jan 1987) and that's when Morley
concludes they were destroyed because of his request. And they may not
have just "the Oswald phone calls".. it could be anything relating to the
Oswald portion of the case, such as Sylvia Duran interrogation stuff.
Win Scott kept meticulous records. He was lied to by Langley. They sent
him what they say was the most recent stuff on Oswald but it was not. They
knew this. They knew this because Helm's boys Karamessines and Joannides
were running the Cuban DRE young folks through the SAS department and they
knew who Oswald was. Early. And didn't tell Scott. John, you have Morley's
original research on this via his interview with Jane Roman on your site.
What's new is that they intentionally kept Scott out of the loop but it
appears Phillips knew. I'll let you know more when I finish the book. By
the way the chapter on cutting Scott out of the loop is available on the
Ferrell website.
Burgundy
WBurg...@aol.com
> On Jul 11, 1:17 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 9 Jul 2009 16:26:47 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > >On Jul 6, 9:04 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> > >> On 6 Jul 2009 22:04:06 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > >> >He died in 2007. He found the Oswald tapes among other stuff in Win
> > >> >Scott's office after Scott's death, according to Jefferson Morley's and
> > >> >Michael Scott's book "Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden
> > >> >History of the CIA" (2008, University Press of Kansas) (Michael is Win
> > >> >Scott's son). Does anyone have further information about him?
>
> > >> And what evidence is there that he "found the Oswald tapes?"
>
> > >> .John
> > >> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> > >On the Mary Ferrel website, Melbourne Paul Hartmann's testimony is
> > >there under HSCA Security Testimony and the pages are about 28-35 and
> > >the ending.
>
> > Do you perhaps mean "History Matters?"
>
> > The search on the Mary Ferrell only turns up some stuff relating to
> > LTLINGUAL.
>
> > .John
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> No it's on the Ferrell Site under "HSCA Security Classified Testimony."
> Page 2. #29. HSCA Interview Melbourne Paul Hartmann. 10 Oct. 1978. Page 29
> et seq. It may be on the other site but he talks about the package of
> tapes and it's got to be the same thing Horton removed because of the size
> and that it came from Mexico. Later on in the Morley book Michael Scott
> attempts to get these tapes (Approx Jan 1987) and that's when Morley
> concludes they were destroyed because of his request. And they may not
> have just "the Oswald phone calls".. it could be anything relating to the
> Oswald portion of the case, such as Sylvia Duran interrogation stuff.
>
> Win Scott kept meticulous records. He was lied to by Langley. They sent
> him what they say was the most recent stuff on Oswald but it was not. They
> knew this. They knew this because Helm's boys Karamessines and Joannides
> were running the Cuban DRE young folks through the SAS department and they
> knew who Oswald was. Early. And didn't tell Scott. John, you have Morley's
> original research on this via his interview with Jane Roman on your site.
> What's new is that they intentionally kept Scott out of the loop but it
> appears Phillips knew. I'll let you know more when I finish the book. By
> the way the chapter on cutting Scott out of the loop is available on the
> Ferrell website.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Cut off at the bottom of the page of these testimonies on the Ferrell
website is "Courtesy of History Matters." If that makes a difference.
Hartmann's testimony touches on HTLINGUAL but these tapes were not about
that. He says so.
Dave Yandell
> On Jul 11, 3:09 pm, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 1:17 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>
> > > On 9 Jul 2009 16:26:47 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > >On Jul 6, 9:04 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> > > >> On 6 Jul 2009 22:04:06 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > >> >He died in 2007. He found the Oswald tapes among other stuff in Win
> > > >> >Scott's office after Scott's death, according to Jefferson Morley's and
> > > >> >Michael Scott's book "Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden
> > > >> >History of the CIA" (2008, University Press of Kansas) (Michael is Win
> > > >> >Scott's son). Does anyone have further information about him?
>
> > > >> And what evidence is there that he "found the Oswald tapes?"
>
> > > >> .John
> > > >> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> > > >On the Mary Ferrel website, Melbourne Paul Hartmann's testimony is
> > > >there under HSCA Security Testimony and the pages are about 28-35 and
> > > >the ending.
>
> > > Do you perhaps mean "History Matters?"
>
> > > The search on the Mary Ferrell only turns up some stuff relating to
> > > LTLINGUAL.
>
> > > .John
>
> - Show quoted text -
Er, Hartman says that sometime in "the latter 60s" (pp. 30, 36).
someone (he "couldn't even begin to guess" (p. 41) whether it was Win
Scott or not when this is suggested) sent him a package of reel-to-
reel tapes (that he filed without opening) to file with the CIA's
Oswald file. He was unsure whether they had come in recently from
Mexico or been at the Mexico Desk at the CIA for some time.
As to what was on the tapes, Hartman testified as follows: "Now I
can't answer these were Oswald's voice or that they were some of the
other tapes of some of the other taps, but I know that I received a
package of tapes concerning the Oswald case sometime a number of years
after the assassination. I don't know whose those tapes were or of
whom they were but I know they were tapes." (p. 30 of his testimony)
So, all Hartman said about tapes is that he filed (in a "bulky") some
tapes relating to the Oswald file that he believed had come from
Mexico at some point before the late 60s.
Best,
Dave
WBurg...@aol.com
> On Jul 11, 8:25 pm, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 3:09 pm, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 11, 1:17 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
>
> > > > On 9 Jul 2009 16:26:47 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > > >On Jul 6, 9:04 pm, John McAdams <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote:
> > > > >> On 6 Jul 2009 22:04:06 -0400, WBurgha...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > > > >> >He died in 2007. He found the Oswald tapes among other stuff in Win
> > > > >> >Scott's office after Scott's death, according to Jefferson Morley's and
> > > > >> >Michael Scott's book "Our Man in Mexico: Winston Scott and the Hidden
> > > > >> >History of the CIA" (2008, University Press of Kansas) (Michael is Win
> > > > >> >Scott's son). Does anyone have further information about him?
>
> > > > >> And what evidence is there that he "found the Oswald tapes?"
>
> > > > >> .John
> > > > >> --------------http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
>
> > > > >On the Mary Ferrel website, Melbourne Paul Hartmann's testimony is
> > > > >there under HSCA Security Testimony and the pages are about 28-35 and
> > > > >the ending.
>
> > > > Do you perhaps mean "History Matters?"
>
> > > > The search on the Mary Ferrell only turns up some stuff relating to
> > > > LTLINGUAL.
>
> > > > .John
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes but when you compare that to what John Horton removed from Win Scott's
office, the size of the package and descriptor "OSWALD" match. So where
are the tapes and what is on them?????? The source for this is cables sent
by Horton to Langley (cited earlier in this post thread) though where
those cables are online, if at all, I don't know.
I'll paste that here for convenience:
QUOTE ON
"Horton was 'amazed' at what he found but he didn't specify why. The haul
included a plethora of secret files, including tapes and photographs of
accused presidential assassin Lee Harvey Oswald visiting communist
embassies.... Horton lugged three large cartons and four suitcases to an
unmarked truck parked at the curb. The contents of Win's home office were
shipped back to CIA headquarters.....the biggest batch, a stack of tapes
three or four inches thick, was marked 'OSWALD'.""
Okay, enough. Sources? Yes. Here is what is listed: "See HSCA/ Security
Classified Testimony of James Angleton 10/5/78 125-129, HSCA/Security
Classified Testimony 180-10110-1006, John Horton's cables Dispatch, DIR to
C/WH3, April 29, 1971, 8pp.; and Dispatch, Eyes Only to Director, May 3,
1971. These two cables, written by Horton, Mexico City Station Chief in
1971, were released by the CIA to Mark Zaid, attorney for Michael Scott."
Other sources are interviews with Janet Scott and notes Michael kept.
Also, while I have not finished this well-written book, there is a
citation to one Paul Hartmann, a CIA officer, who saw the Oswald tapes in
the mid-1970s. "It was a packet of tapes maybe -- I never opened the
packet because there was no need for it," Hartmann said in secret sworn
testimony in 1978. "It must have been a packet three to four inchers
thick. It looked like several of these reel-to-reel boxes of tapes. These
came to me, I'm almost certain, from the Mexico City branch....someone
cleaned out a safe and sent it to me to put in the file." SOURCE: HSCA
classified testimony of Melbourne Paul Hartmann, October 10, 1978, 29.
QUOTE OFF
Warmest personal regards,
Burgundy.