Girl in Blue

[laughpr...@aol.com]

I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
came across this site.

For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.

And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.

I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
no conspiracy.

Toni

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/16/2012 4:29 PM, laughpr...@aol.com wrote:
> I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> came across this site.
>
> For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>

If you really are the girl, there is a dispute about how old you were on
11/22/63. I estimated your age at 13, but Gary Mack claims you were a high
school girl.

> And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
> the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
> One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.
>
> I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> no conspiracy.
>

How could you tell there was no conspiracy?
BTW, the position of the little girl on that column prevents Amos Euins
from seeing the sniper in the window.

> Toni

[pjsp...@aol.com]

O.K. So give us the details. What's your name, what did you see, and
how did your observations convince you there was no conspiracy?

[claviger]

Toni,

You say a couple of lucky shots. Do you mean literally, as in 2 shots?
How many shots did you hear that awful day? Why are you sure there was no
conspiracy?

[Anthony Marsh]

I assume that she means that the third shot missed. Did you tell her about
the Secret Service agent shooting the President in the head? Maybe that's
why you think Oswald missed. Only one shot to the head and you think THAT
shot came from the Secret Service agent so that would be why Oswald missed
for your theory.

[Anthony Marsh]

I can't prove it, but I think she is the person who identified herself
to Gary Mack as the girl on the pedestal.
I'll have to double check, but as I remember it Gary Mack said she was a
high school student then.

[Dave Reitzes]

At least a few of us here agree with you. What are you planning to do
with your memoir?

Dave

[Research]

"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:725e7fd7-f1cd-461a...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

On Apr 16, 3:29 pm, laughproffes...@aol.com wrote:
> I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> came across this site.
>
> For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.

> I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> no conspiracy.

You say a couple of lucky shots. Do you mean literally, as in 2 shots?

Jean Hill started that way. She and Mooreman claimed two shots. And before
it was all said they were up to 4 to 6.
And where is the proof of her standing on the wall? If she was standing
where she claims, she would be blocking the view of another more important
eyewitness. Amos Euins claims to have been standing directly behind the wall
where he claims to see Oswald shooting from the dep.

[markusp]

Toni, you should understand that in speaking only for myself, I find it
amazing that you keep quiet for how many years (?), and then post here
claiming matter of factly that there was no conspiracy because you saw a
"panoramic" view...of what? Your name at the top of the posting says,
"unknown". Did you see "one little jerk"? Clearly, your memory is keen. I
hope you can provide many more details. Maybe you should make a statement
and have it notarized.

Because your claim of a panoramic view leads you to state unequivocally
that there was no conspiracy, I would like to know what you saw, and how
you can then use that visual memory to determine lack of confederates.
Your information should be quite definitive, and perhaps Dr. McAdams can
simply shut down this discussion group because you've finally decided to
come forward.

~Mark

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/17/2012 11:38 AM, Research wrote:
> "claviger"<histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:725e7fd7-f1cd-461a...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 16, 3:29 pm, laughproffes...@aol.com wrote:
>> I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
>> came across this site.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
>> of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
>> Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>
>> I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
>> no conspiracy.
>
> You say a couple of lucky shots. Do you mean literally, as in 2 shots?
>
> Jean Hill started that way. She and Mooreman claimed two shots. And before
> it was all said they were up to 4 to 6.

Can you play for me that interview from that afternoon where they both
said they heard two and exact two shot? No, I didn't think so. It's more
fun for you to make up stuff.
Please cite and quote for me when they were both up to 4 to 6 shots.

> And where is the proof of her standing on the wall? If she was standing
> where she claims, she would be blocking the view of another more important
> eyewitness. Amos Euins claims to have been standing directly behind the wall
> where he claims to see Oswald shooting from the dep.
>
>
>
>

Well, don't look for evidence here. McAdams doesn't allow pictures to be
displayed here so that people can prove their points.
From the restored Bell film:

http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/BellAnimation2-1.gif

IMHO the girl in blue atop the pedestal is too tall for an eleven year old.
Amos Euins could not see the sniper's window through her.

[Bud]

On Apr 17, 2:39 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/17/2012 11:38 AM, Research wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "claviger"<historiae.fi...@gmail.com>  wrote in message

Or through the concrete see was standing on. But that doesn`t mean
that Euins could not have seen what he said he saw.

[Don Roberdeau]

On Apr 16, 4:29 pm, laughproffes...@aol.com wrote:

.... Good Day.... FYI....

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.0.html
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a437/wesriddle/7vjawu7gh2zq.gif
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7076/bellseq3lostjfktapes000.png
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/D-122.jpg


Best Regards in Research,

Don


Donald Roberdeau
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker
Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

For your considerations....

Homepage: President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and
Assassination Evidence,Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding
Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html


Dealey Plaza Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations,
Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet trajectories,
Important information & Key Considerations, in One Convenient
Resource.... http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif


Visual Report: "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While
JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "....
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif


Visual Report: Reality versus C.A.D. :
the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif


Discovery: "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and
Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll"....
http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore


For the United States:

http://www.nationalterroralert.com/advisory7regional.gif

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

[Anthony Marsh]

It means exactly that. It proves that he did not see what he claimed.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/16/2012 7:04 PM, pjsp...@AOL.COM wrote:

Here is what Gary Mack reported that she said:

Hi Gerda,

Her name was Toni Glover, she was 11 years old and she did not know who
the other girl was. Toni did an oral history for The Sixth Floor Museum
in 1999, though a transcript has not yet been made. She thought two
shots were fired and she's recently returned to the Museum's Reading
Room to do research for some project.

Gary

[Research]

"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:8ade6601-aa59-4d71...@fo16g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

Oh yeah. Now we can believe the word of an eyewitness. But when it comes to
Newman, you LNers claim you can't trust the words of eyewitnesses. Even when
there is overwhelming eyewitnessings. But yet when the witnesses make claims
supporting the WCR then its alright.

[Ace Kefford]

On Apr 17, 2:39 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 4/17/2012 11:38 AM, Research wrote:
>
>
>

> > "claviger"<historiae.fi...@gmail.com>  wrote in message

I don't quite understand how you can think one person can completely
block a view unless they are inches in front of a person. Even if
that case (if you've ever been at a rock concert in front of the
stage) you can move a little to the side and still be able to see
things.

Why would Euins have lied immediately after the shooting? It's not
like he appeared forty years later or something.

[Research]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4f8d...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

> On 4/17/2012 11:38 AM, Research wrote:
>> "claviger"<histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:725e7fd7-f1cd-461a...@h9g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 16, 3:29 pm, laughproffes...@aol.com wrote:
>>> I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
>>> came across this site.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the
>>> corner
>>> of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
>>> Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>>
>>> I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness,
>>> but
>>> no conspiracy.
>>
>> You say a couple of lucky shots. Do you mean literally, as in 2 shots?
>>
>> Jean Hill started that way. She and Mooreman claimed two shots. And
>> before
>> it was all said they were up to 4 to 6.
>
> Can you play for me that interview from that afternoon where they both
> said they heard two and exact two shot? No, I didn't think so. It's more
> fun for you to make up stuff.
> Please cite and quote for me when they were both up to 4 to 6 shots.

NBC Today did a report about it. They showed a '63 tape where they were
interviewed just after the assassination when they both said they heard two
shots. Moorman has been rather quite over the last fifty years. It was the
last defending witness who has made claims of hearing 4 to 6 shots. Whatever
creditably you add is yours.
If you want any answers as to Moorman's current position. GOOGLE it. Like
you told me, "do your own research!"
I know you think you're a big deal. In your own mind anyway, But nobody has
to circum to your demands.

>> And where is the proof of her standing on the wall? If she was standing
>> where she claims, she would be blocking the view of another more
>> important
>> eyewitness. Amos Euins claims to have been standing directly behind the
>> wall
>> where he claims to see Oswald shooting from the dep.

Just where is Amos Enius is a better question; in the Bell or Hughes or any
other evidence? I don't see him.

[Ken McDonald]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4f8d...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

Your Mark Bell video looks great with the sprocket holes. Would it be
inappropriate to post things like that on alt.binaries.jfkjr.plane.pictures?

>
> IMHO the girl in blue atop the pedestal is too tall for an eleven year
> old.
> Amos Euins could not see the sniper's window through her.
>
>
>

> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 7063 (20120417) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7065 (20120418) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Robin Unger]

Interesting post

FWIW Gary Mack said the girl in blue on the pedestal was Toni Glover

[claviger]

One thing for sure, she was in an elevated position to see everything.

[Anthony Marsh]

Nice to see you here. When you look at the girl in blue on the Bell film
does she look like an 11 year old to you? Can you calculate how tall she
is by knowing the height of the pedestal?

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes. It would be off-topic. Why not post it in alt.fashion.movie-stars?
One reason why people post pictures in alt.binaries.pictures is because
that is what that newsgroup was designed for, general pictures to become
attachments. Also McAdams is so fussy that he doesn't carry all newsgroups
on his server. Wise guys would post pornography there to get him into
trouble. He can't spend every minute of every day sorting through
pornography and checking the censorship laws of every country.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, she and the other girl were inches in front of where Euins said he
was hiding behind the pedestal.

> Why would Euins have lied immediately after the shooting? It's not
> like he appeared forty years later or something.
>

Yes, he did appear 48 years later. So what? Does that automatically make
him a liar?

[Anthony Marsh]

Correct. Forget about HEARING shots. She could SEE everything and being
on the south side of Elm she could see one bullet hitting both Kennedy
and Connally. So maybe she assumes that there were only two shots.

[slats]

Just think: she may have been the last teen girl JFK ever leered at.

[Ken McDonald]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:4f8f0208$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

I only mentioned the above newsgroup because it's the only one that has
jfk in it. I did go there and it's mostly if not all full of porn. Why
does John have to have anything to do with it? We should have a way to
upload photos or videos. Just thought I would through it out there.

[Bud]

On Apr 18, 11:44 am, "Research" <questio...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

What are you talking about, I believe Newman when he says he thought
the shots came from behind him.

> Even when
> there is overwhelming eyewitnessings. But yet when the witnesses make claims
> supporting the WCR then its alright.

Let me explain something to you on weighing the witness testimony in
this case. Had someone seen a person shooting from the knoll, another saw
a man with a rifle there and a few others seen a rifle barrel sticking out
there, and rifle shells and a rifle which matched the bullet fragments
found in the limo were found there then the witnesses who indicated the
knoll would be the ones who were right and the ones who indicated the TSBD
would have been dubious. See how that works?

[Bud]

It means nothing. It`s a meaningless claim.

> It proves that he did not see what he claimed.

Silly. People aren`t statues, they move.

[Bud]

Do you see anyone hiding behind the pedestal?

http://www.the-puzzle-palace.com/BellAnimation2-1.gif

[Anthony Marsh]

No, especially not where Euins demonstrate crouching down.

[Anthony Marsh]

He was not where he said he was. That makes him a liar.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/18/2012 10:04 PM, slats wrote:
> Just think: she may have been the last teen girl JFK ever leered at.
>

That was my question, was she a teen or was she a preteen? She says she
was only 11. She looks older.

[Robin Unger]

Hi Tony

To be honest, i can't really tell her age from the Bell frames, since we only see her from the rear.

But i would have assumed the girl in blue to be a few years older than 11-years


As a comparison we might look at Tina Towner in Dorman
i understand that she was 13 - years old at the time of the assassination.

[Robin Unger]

Euins placed himself crouching down at the foot of the girl in blue's pedestal


http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/quaneeri2/Euins.jpg


If that was actually the case, then we would clearly see him in Bell
crouching down behind the pedestal.

BUT WE DON'T

[Research]

"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:2c5cfb77-b2d7-418c...@er9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

Thanks for posting this link. As I viewed the Bell slide, I see a person
standing on the pedestal, wearing a blue sweater or something. The figure
doesn't seem to be a little girl. She must be older than an 11 year old
girl. Even could have been one of those (long-haired hippy types) wearing
short pants and black bobby socks? Even see a man in a trench coat and a
woman behind him. But no Amos Enius. Standing behind the pedestal as he
claimed. So researchers, where is he? Its not that he lied. But more of
evidence that proves he was where he claimed to be. That would prove he
did see Oswald or someone in the assassin window. But like Brenner, his
evidence falls apart under scrunity.

> > Why would Euins have lied immediately after the shooting? It's not
> > like he appeared forty years later or something.
>
> Yes, he did appear 48 years later. So what? Does that automatically make
> him a liar?

Why would he have lied to begin with? So he would seem to be important.
And continues the lie for the same reason. Maybe now its more of a
finanical reason?

[claviger]

A photo is a snapshot of one moment in time. Euins did not stay in
one place during the shooting:

Mr. EUINS. I was standing here on the comer. And then the President
come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was
waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there
but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And
then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it
was a pipe, some kind of pipe.

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the
corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this
pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention
to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around,
thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around.
Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this
fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a
little fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and
then he shot again.

Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing back
here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the
window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track
vicinity.
Mr. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us.
When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point
where you marked with an "A" on 365?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little--
Mr. SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here.
Mr. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time
the second shot occurred.
(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.
Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where
were you looking then?
Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B?
Mr. EUINS. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window?
Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the
fourth shot?
Mr. EUINS. The first shot I was standing here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you
were standing at the first shot.
Mr. EUINS. Right here.
(Witness marking.)
Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another
shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing
right in there, at this point B.
Mr. SPECTER. At point B, on 365?
Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again.
Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.
Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he
fired on that fourth time.
Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.
Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?
Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the
fourth shot?
Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?
Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window,
I ran this way, and went across the tracks.
Mr. SPECTER. All right.
You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path
of where you ran on 365.
Mr. EUINS. I was here at "B."

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 16, 7:04 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:

> On 4/16/2012 4:29 PM, laughproffes...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> > came across this site.
>
> > For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> > of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> > Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>

> If you really are the girl, there is a dispute about how old you were on
> 11/22/63. I estimated your age at 13, but Gary Mack claims you were a high
> school girl.

>
> > And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
> > the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
> > One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.
>

> > I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> > no conspiracy.
>

> How could you tell there was no conspiracy?
> BTW, the position of the little girl on that column prevents Amos Euins
> from seeing the sniper in the window.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Toni

Oh Lordy. I have stepped into it. I knew nothing about this site. It was
late and I searched my name and Kennedy. When John's work showed up I was
stunned and wrote a stupid email. Let's start over.

My name is Toni (Antoinette) Glover. I was born in Dallas, Texas at
Methodist Hospital on February, 14, 1952. (That's right, Valentine's Day)
I lived in Oak Cliff, about 5 minutes from downtown. I was eleven. After a
lot of begging, my mom took me to the parade. We went straight to Dealey
Plaza thinking the end of the parade would have the least people. I don't
remember anyone else there when we arrived. An excited 11 year old, I kept
running back and forth from my "perch" to Main Street looking down it to
see if I could tell the cars were coming. I did this several times. On one
of those trips to Main, a guy had a seizure at Main and Houston. I was
afraid they would divert the parade because of the ambulance. I went back
to my cement block before they turned onto Houston. When the limo passed
he looked up, waved and smiled. Then he turned the corner and a couple of
seconds later, his head exploded. There is a column that blocked my view
for a couple of seconds, but then the car reappeared and bang. From my
perspective, the plume of brains and blood sparkled a little in the Texas
sun. I told my mom someone threw sparklers in the car!!!!

I have no other evidence of any kind about the assassination.

Announcing that Oswald was, "an idiot" and other remarkable statements I
made were at best ill-informed. I am not an historian. I will stick to
telling my experience and let you historians figure out who did what. My
personal belief is that Oswald acted alone. But that's just my opinion. I
didn't see anything like odd individuals, or flashes or anything else that
would make me think otherwise. Loud noises echo in downtown Dallas. I
"think" I heard 2 shots, but I have always qualified that by saying
"everything echoes down there". I'm not sure how anyone can tell where the
shots came from. But many feel otherwise.

I'm happy to answer questions about my life and experience, but drawing
conclusions is above my pay grade. I know I was standing on the cement
block the entire time Kennedy was on Houston and Elm. I have no idea who's
view I blocked. And I'm not sure who is on the block with me. I doubt my
mom would have crawled up that high.

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 18, 10:04 pm, slats <o...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Just think: she may have been the last teen girl JFK ever leered at.

Wow. No leering. Just a smile and a wave.

Some answers:

At eleven I was 5' 6", had a long pony tail, and I'll go to my grave
before telling anyone what I weighed. The deal I made with my mom was: If
I went to school, she would pick me up at 11:00 and take me to the parade.
That's the only reason I had on a skirt. We had horses and I usually wore
jeans. The sagging knee socks were worn because I was jealous of a new
girl in my class and was trying to copy her.

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 17, 2:37 pm, markusp <markina...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Monday, April 16, 2012 3:29:27 PM UTC-5, (unknown) wrote:
> > I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> > came across this site.
>
> > For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> > of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> > Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>

> > And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
> > the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
> > One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.
>
> > I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> > no conspiracy.
>

> > Toni
>
> Toni, you should understand that in speaking only for myself, I find it
> amazing that you keep quiet for how many years (?), and then post here
> claiming matter of factly that there was no conspiracy because you saw a
> "panoramic" view...of what? Your name at the top of the posting says,
> "unknown". Did you see "one little jerk"? Clearly, your memory is keen. I
> hope you can provide many more details. Maybe you should make a statement
> and have it notarized.
>
> Because your claim of a panoramic view leads you to state unequivocally
> that there was no conspiracy, I would like to know what you saw, and how
> you can then use that visual memory to determine lack of confederates.
> Your information should be quite definitive, and perhaps Dr. McAdams can
> simply shut down this discussion group because you've finally decided to
> come forward.
>
> ~Mark

Mark. Sorry if I offended. Many witnesses waited 25-35-40 years to
come forward. Gary would know how many, but it isn't uncommon.

[Anthony Marsh]

Excuse me? Did you watch the show The Lost Bullet? Of course not. Then
you don't know what you are talking about as usual. He DEMONSTRATED how
he was crouching down behind that pedestal. He told the WC that is where
he was standing. If he was standing on the curb at Houston Street then
he was not behind the pedestal.
In other words he lied.

>>> Why would Euins have lied immediately after the shooting? It's not
>>> like he appeared forty years later or something.
>>
>> Yes, he did appear 48 years later. So what? Does that automatically make
>> him a liar?
>
> Why would he have lied to begin with? So he would seem to be important.
> And continues the lie for the same reason. Maybe now its more of a
> finanical reason?
>
>

To make himself important. He thought he was the only one who saw that
the shooter was a black man.

>
>

[Bud]

So he couldn`t be blocked, could he? Of course people move, they aren`t
statues. At some times he might be able to see things that at different
times he might be able to. This is why making absolute statements about
what he could or couldn`t see is silly.

[timstter]

On Apr 18, 1:40 pm, Don Roberdeau <droberd...@aol.com> wrote:

> On Apr 16, 4:29 pm, laughproffes...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> > came across this site.
>
> > For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> > of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> > Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>

> > And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
> > the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
> > One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.
>

> > I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> > no conspiracy.
>

> > Toni
>
> .... Good Day.... FYI....
>
> http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,5834.0.htmlhttp://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a437/wesriddle/7vjawu7gh2zq.gifhttp://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7076/bellseq3lostjfktapes000.pnghttp://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/D-122.jpg
>
> Best  Regards  in  Research,
>
>         Don
>
> Donald  Roberdeau
> U.S.S.  John  F.  Kennedy,  CV-67,  plank  walker
> Sooner,  or  later,  The  Truth  emerges  Clearly
>
> For  your  considerations....
>
> Homepage:  President KENNEDY  "Men  of  Courage"  speech, and
> Assassination Evidence,Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding
> Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassina...
>
> Dealey  Plaza  Map  Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise  locations,
> Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet trajectories,
> Important  information &  Key Considerations, in  One  Convenient
> Resource....http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif
>
> Visual Report:  "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While
> JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "....http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif
>
> Visual Report:  Reality versus C.A.D. :
> the  Real World,  versus,  Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif
>
> Discovery:  "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
> Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and
> Directly  Towards  the  Grassy  Knoll"....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassinat...
>
> T  ogether
> E  veryone
> A  chieves
> M  ore
>
>         For the United States:
>
>        http://www.nationalterroralert.com/advisory7regional.gif
>
>        http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

Hi Don,

Thanks for supplying the interesting images.

Regards,

Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*

[timstter]

Hi Toni,

I think you about got it right in your first post.

Oswald wasn't an idiot but he WAS a fanatical Marxist who worshipped
Fidel Castro.

JFK had made a sabre rattling speech in Miami earlier that week,
virtually encouraging a Cuban coup, and it is very likely that Oswald
read of this in the Dallas newspapers.

Oswald was also a very good shot, despite what you hear. He shot a 212
in the USMC to qualify as a Sharpshooter a few years earlier.

Your point about the argument with his wife is a good one. If they'd
reconciled the previous night, he may have dropped his idea of taking
his rifle to work and trying to kill President Kennedy.

Thanks for sharing your memories.

Kind Regards,

[Anthony Marsh]

Of course people move. So he lied about where he was standing. I'm not
that interested in what he could see an hour before the shooting or an
hour after the shooting. But he claims that he was crouching down behind
the column during the shooting and the photographic evidence proves he
wasn't. So you you have to become an alterationist and claim the film was
fake. NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES. Get it?

[Anthony Marsh]

So in the space of 2 seconds Euins goes from standing on the corner and
not seeing the rifle to hiding behind the column and SEEING the last shot.

If Specter knows he is lying is that called suborning perjury?

> Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you
> were standing at the first shot.
> Mr. EUINS. Right here.
> (Witness marking.)

Jeez, isn't a good thing that McAdams won't allow you to post WC exhibit
so that people can see for themselves where he was supposed to be?

[timstter]

You can't determine that from that Bell gif you posted, Marsh.

Bell's camera follows the limo down Elm and that part of the masonry
Toni is standing on disappears from view.

A few less sweeping statements in the debate would be nice, Mr Marsh.

Corrective Regards,

[Jean Davison]

On Apr 19, 2:29 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/19/2012 11:30 AM, Research wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > "Bud"<sirsl...@fast.net>  wrote in message

No, he did not lie.

What is it with so many CTs, that they leap right over
"human error" to rush to "he lied"? Who can explain that to me?

Euins told the WC that he was standing on the corner of Elm
and Houston when the shooting started, and that after he heard two
shots, *then* he sought cover by crouching behind the pedestal.

Euins marked his position on CE 365. A is where he was
originally, on the corner across from the TSBD; B is his position
after the second shot:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0493a.htm

Decades later, he remembered it a little differently. There
is nothing unusual about that at all. It's *normal* for memories to
change over time. Look it up, if you don't believe me.

There was no reason for Euins to be behind the pedestal on
the Bell film, when he could get a better view from the corner.

Euins reported what he saw to the police right away and gave
a statement that afternoon. He wasn't a witness-come-lately like so
many others.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif

Jean

[Bud]

Produce your film of him the whole time so we can see this.

> I'm not
> that interested in what he could see an hour before the shooting or an
> hour after the shooting.

Or even during the shooting, apparently.

> But he claims that he was crouching down behind
> the column during the shooting

I thought I explained this to you already, people move, they aren`t
statues.

> and the photographic evidence proves he
> wasn't.

By all means, produce your photos of Euins throughout the attack.

> So you you have to become an alterationist and claim the film was
> fake.

False dilemma fallacy.

> NEVER RELY ON WITNESSES.

NEVER RELY ON TONY MARSH`S ABSOLUTE ASSERTIONS ABOUT WHAT EUINS
COULD OR COULD NOT SEE.

>Get it?

Got it.

[Bud]

I think so. CTers generally don`t know how to weigh information. If
they could they wouldn`t be CTers.

>           Euins told the WC that he was standing on the corner of Elm
> and Houston when the shooting started, and that after he heard two
> shots, *then* he sought cover by crouching behind the pedestal.
>
>           Euins marked his position on CE 365.  A is where he was
> originally, on the corner across from the TSBD; B is his position
> after the second shot:
>

>  http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...

Look Tony, Jean managed to produce this evidence. You claimed .John
was preventing you from doing so. Why do you think there are forces
working against you?

[Robin Unger]

Hi Toni

Thanks for the information you have kindly shared with us.

Would you have a photo of yourself which you would be willing to share !


Cheers.

Robin Unger

My assassination image galleries.
which include many images of yourself standing on the pedestal ( Bell, Hughes )galleries

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/

[claviger]

Anthony,

> So in the space of 2 seconds Euins goes from standing on the corner and
> not seeing the rifle to hiding behind the column and SEEING the last shot.

The shooting took 10 seconds and yes someone can change position in
that time span, especially when scared.

[Anthony Marsh]

That's the whole God Damned point! There is no film of him the whole
time. The film shows he was not there.

>> I'm not
>> that interested in what he could see an hour before the shooting or an
>> hour after the shooting.
>
> Or even during the shooting, apparently.
>

I am very interested in what he could or could not see during the
shooting. And the film evidence proves that he was lying.

>> But he claims that he was crouching down behind
>> the column during the shooting
>
> I thought I explained this to you already, people move, they aren`t
> statues.
>

Simplistic. The little girl did not move. If Euins was really crouched
down behind the pedestal as he said then he could NOT have seen the
sniper's nest.

>> and the photographic evidence proves he
>> wasn't.
>
> By all means, produce your photos of Euins throughout the attack.
>

That's my point. They don't exist because he wasn't where he said he was.

[Anthony Marsh]

Have you watched the show The Lost Bullet? Of course not, because you
were afraid that it might be a conspiracy show. So you don't even know
what Euins said in that show. So don't don't pretend to defend Euins
when you don't even know what he said?

> What is it with so many CTs, that they leap right over
> "human error" to rush to "he lied"? Who can explain that to me?
>
> Euins told the WC that he was standing on the corner of Elm
> and Houston when the shooting started, and that after he heard two
> shots, *then* he sought cover by crouching behind the pedestal.
>

The little girl was still there like a statue on the pedestal. If Euins
had crouched down behind the pedestal as he said and you allege, then he
could not have seen the third shot.

> Euins marked his position on CE 365. A is where he was
> originally, on the corner across from the TSBD; B is his position
> after the second shot:
>

That should have been uploaded by the original poster when citing the
Euins testimony so that people could see it in context.

> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0493a.htm
>

Not that helpful. It doesn't show exactly where Euins was standing. And
the resolution is so bad that most people can not tell the difference
between the A and the B.

> Decades later, he remembered it a little differently. There
> is nothing unusual about that at all. It's *normal* for memories to
> change over time. Look it up, if you don't believe me.
>

And memories can be changed by outside influences. Look up Elizabeth Loftus.

> There was no reason for Euins to be behind the pedestal on
> the Bell film, when he could get a better view from the corner.
>

The Bell film is not the only one and I did not use it to show where Euins
was. If he was where he said he was he should be seen on the Dorman film.
But YOU can't show Euins on the Dorman film. I didn't say that Euins
started at the pedestal. He said he started at the corner and ducked
behind the pedestal between the 2nd shot and the 3rd shot.

Euins is not seen at the corner of Elm and Houston in any film or photo.

> Euins reported what he saw to the police right away and gave
> a statement that afternoon. He wasn't a witness-come-lately like so
> many others.
>
> http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif
>
> Jean
>

That's why it is so good to have you here. To come to the rescue of the
cover-up. A few honest people listened to what I said and looked at the
films and agree that Euins was not where he said he was. So you have to
repair his reputation to make him a star witness. But in doing so you
throw Loftus under the bus and ignore her advice to always go to the
EARLIEST statement before there is time for the person to be influenced.
You don't tell us when that statement was typed up. But I can guarantee
you that it was not within minutes of the shooting and not typed up in the
middle of Dealey Plaza. Euins's earliest statement was made to the police
and reporters right in Dealey Plaza within minutes of the shooting. And
Euins told the cop and the reporters that the shooter was a black man. By
the time he got home his mother told him that people had called and
threatened his family for saying the shooter was a black man, so he had to
change his story. Loftus and other memory experts do tests where they
stage a fake crime and then ask the spectators what they saw. Some
spectators will claim that they clearly saw something which they could not
possibly have seen. And the videotape proves it did not happen that way.
So here I am pointing out that the films prove that it did not happen the
way Euins said it did and you throw out the photographic evidence and rely
on a witness.

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, I can and that is not the only film that shows that area.

> Bell's camera follows the limo down Elm and that part of the masonry
> Toni is standing on disappears from view.
>

Do you have a point? I was merely showing where she was standing.

> A few less sweeping statements in the debate would be nice, Mr Marsh.
>

I'd like to make some more sweeping statements, but they get deleted.

[Ken McDonald]

"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message

news:3e33c6d4-f217-4f06...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

You only see Toni for a second. I think that you can see on Anthony's
video, Mark Bell just begins to move his camera to the left to follow the
limo and then goes back to the beginnning. As Mark Bell follows the limo,
he moves his camera to the left and and stops beween the tree (s) and the
pergola (?) where you can see Rosemary Willis running by. Then, he films
the limo racing down Elm St. after the shots were fired. I'm going from
memory because I can't view the film right now. I looked up Mark Bell on
the internet and came across this website that has the Robert Hughs' film
on it. You can see Toni and the author mentions the movement she makes
with her arms and questions whether or not it was a signal for the
assassins ( what will they come up with next?). Most likely, I wouldn't be
able to find it again because when I'm searching, I keep changing the
search expressions. What I really should do is open new tabs.

Ken

[Bud]

Great! Now we are finally going to get somewhere, you are going to
divulge your point. I was beginning to wonder if there was one.

> There is no film of him the whole
> time.

Ok, you admit you have no film tracking his movements, thats a
start.

> The film shows he was not there.

Wait a minute, you just said there was no film! Now you refer to a
film.

If this film doesn`t show him the whole time it doesn`t do much to
establish what he could or couldn`t see, does it?

> >> I'm not
> >> that interested in what he could see an hour before the shooting or an
> >> hour after the shooting.
>
> >    Or even during the shooting, apparently.
>
> I am very interested in what he could or could not see during the
> shooting. And the film evidence proves that he was lying.

You just said there is no film of him the whole time. Without that
how do you know what he could see or not see?

> >> But he claims that he was crouching down behind
> >> the column during the shooting
>
> >    I thought I explained this to you already, people move, they aren`t
> > statues.
>
> Simplistic.

The truth often is.

> The little girl did not move.

You have film of her the whole time?

> If Euins was really crouched
> down behind the pedestal as he said then he could NOT have seen the
> sniper's nest.

Would you say that this little girl cannot see the cameraman or is
not behind the tree?

http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-81312790/stock-photo-two-little-children-hiding-behind-tree.html

> >> and the photographic evidence proves he
> >> wasn't.
>
> >    By all means, produce your photos of Euins throughout the attack.
>
> That's my point. They don't exist because he wasn't where he said he was.

Then show the empty area behind the pedestal during the whole
attack. For God`s sake show something to support you absolute
assertions.

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 20, 4:13 pm, "Ken McDonald" <kRmEcMdOoVnEaJlFd...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

Cross my heart, I was just trying to get him to look up at me again.
The only other person I knew in Dealey Plaza that day was my mom.

Toni

[Anthony Marsh]

Yes, this all started by accident. We originally were interested on in
timing Rosemary's speed running around the top of the reflecting pool. The
someone uploaded this small clip which also showed the girl in blue. And
we also noticed her in the Dorman film. So people started speculating
about it. And I played by the parts of The Lost Bullet where Euins
demonstrated how he crouched down behind the pedestal. I realized that
from that angle Euins could not see the sniper's because the girl in blue
would block his view. But because I am a conspiracy believer all the WC
defenders have to claim that Euins was there an could see the sniper's
nest. The only way that could work is if they are alterationists who claim
that their witness is correct so the photographic evidence must be fake.

[Anthony Marsh]

The frame in question is not the entire time of the assassination. Just
the gap between the second shot and the third shot according to what he
said.

I played a trick on you. I chose 2 seconds because that is the gap between
the second shot and the head shot, rounded down, according to some WC
defenders. I know there was actually a gap of no shot before the head shot
of almost 5 seconds.

And yes Euins could have run the 100 yard dash in that 10 seconds if he
were scared.

[Robin Unger]

On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:59:27 AM UTC+9:30, (unknown) wrote:
> I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> came across this site.
>
> For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>

> And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
> the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
> One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.
>

> I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> no conspiracy.
>

> Toni

Very Nice animated Bell GIF (Zoomed ) Credit: Gerda Dunckel
probably the clearest view we have of Toni on the pedestal.


http://www.abload.de/img/toniinbellugkw0.gif

[Anthony Marsh]

Was that your mom in front of you on that pedestal? It looks like you're
playing with her hair.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/20/2012 4:13 PM, Ken McDonald wrote:
>

You can also see the girl in blue (starting to sound like a Picasso
painting) in the Dorman film. Here is a frame. Notice how
enthusiastically she is waving at Kennedy.
Can you see Euins anywhere? Can you point him out to me?

http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/albums/userpics/10001/D-122.jpg

[Don Roberdeau]

.... Good Day Toni .... Thank You very much for your help + taking the
time to search and share for this newsgroup your observations and thoughts
with respect to 11-22-63.

I positively do recall Gary Mack mentioning several years ago (seems like
it was around 1999 ?) about a woman walking into the Sixth Floor Museum
and claiming to be an assassination witness, and that woman was trying to
find photographic evidence of her being in Dealey Plaza on 11-22-63. (I
will search in my extensive news timeline archive, emails, and notes for
his mentioning that) A couple months ago I also read on another JFK forum
thread that Gary did mention you by name, and I provided that other thread
link in this thread's earlier post of mine.

Off the top of my head....

Before 11-22-63 did you have any experience firing a weapon, and / or,
being around other persons firing a weapon? (I always ask every Dealey
Plaza witness about this because of the 42 witnesses I have contacted,
several of them did have weapons experience and / or around gunfire from
the time they were a young child) ....Have you fired a weapon and/or been
around gunfire since 11-22-63?

What is your Mom's name? (same on 11-22-63?)

What time did you and your Mom arrive near / in Dealey Plaza that
day?

Where did your Mom park her car?

What did you and your Mom do after arriving, and before the
presidential limousine came into Dealey Plaza?

Do you remember any other details about the man having the epileptic
seizures close to "your" North Reflecting Pool cement pedestal, just
minutes before JFK came into the plaza?

Did you remain on "your" elevated cement pedestal after President
Kennedy turned onto Elm Street and had already passed you?

Were you still up on that cement pedestal during the shots? (if not,
where?)

Could you see the presidential limousine when the first shot that you
remembered hearing was fired? (if not, what did you see?)

What direction were you facing when you heard the first shot? ....the
second?

Could you please specifically estimate how much time was there between
the 2 shots that you remembered hearing?

Did each shot sound the same in loudness and pitch, or, did each
sound different?

Where did each of the shots seem to originate from, relative to your
standing elevated location on "your" pedestal?

Did you realize that the 2 shots were gunfire, or, did you think that
one or both of them were something else?

What were your reactions between the shots, then, immediately
afterwards?

Where did you first look towards for each of the shots, then, where
did you look immediately afterwards?

Please describe any echoes from the shots in terms of loudness,
length, number of echoes, etc.

Did you smell anything noticeable or distinctly different right after
the shots ended?

Along with when you were able to see the presidential limousine
occupants, did you view any of the other cars or police cyclists
personal actions and reactions during or right after the shots?

Do you remember any of your nearby co-witnesses doing, saying, etc
anything specific during the shots, or in the aftermath?

From where you were during the shots, did you hear a high level of
crowd noise, yells, or clapping, etc?

Where was your Mom standing during the shots?

What does your Mom say about what she remembers about the shots, the
assassination, and its aftermath, etc?

Would she be willing to detail her observations for us publicly, or
her details passed on for us from her, through you?

How long did you both stay in Dealey Plaza after the assassination
ended? ....The reason I ask Toni is because if you stayed in Dealey
Plaza for even a minimum of minutes, there is a decent chance that you
were photographed and/or filmed, and we might be able to help locate
you within the many aftermath photos/films. The longer you and your
Mom stayed, the higher the chances are that you were photographed/
filmed.... In relation to that, what was your Mom wearing that
day? ....her height? ....hair color? ....hair style? ....was she
carrying a purse? ....Etc., etc

Were there any other friends of yours and/or your Mom's that were also
in Dealey Plaza? (: hopefully, with a camera, or movie camera! :)

Since that day, have you met any other assassination witnesses?

How closely have you followed the assassination investigations by the
U.S. government, books, magazines, radio, internet, TV documentaries,
etc?

Are you and your Mom going to provide the Sixth Floor Museum with an
jointly done oral history for their archives?

I will be adding you and your Mom's name and precise location within
my Dealey Plaza map (: I have been steadily updating the map for
several months, and will provide it updated for everyone, soon :)
Also adding you and your Mom for my detailed, referenced list of DP
witnesses and before/after events-persons.

Thanks again for your help.

Best Regards in Research,

Don

Donald Roberdeau,
DRoberdeau @ aol.com (no spaces)
United States Navy

U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker
Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges Clearly

For your key considerations....

Homepage: President KENNEDY "Men of Courage" speech, and
Assassination Evidence,Witnesses, Suspects + Outstanding
Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

Dealey Plaza Map Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise locations,
Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet trajectories,
Important information & Key Considerations, in One Convenient
Resource....
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif


Visual Report: "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While
JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "....
http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif


Visual Report: Reality versus C.A.D. :
the Real World, versus, Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....
http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif


Discovery: "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and
Directly Towards the Grassy Knoll"....

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

[Bud]

Everyone seems to be accepting that it is this girl Toni on the
pedestal. Is this based something other than her say-so?

[Ken McDonald]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4f92130f$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

I don't see him. He may have been in Dealey Plaza, but I would be hard
pressed to prove he was using films of photos.

Ken


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7074 (20120421) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

[Ken McDonald]

<darby...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aaa69db3-0ad9-427b...@n5g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...

I believe you, but there are some kooks out there that will come up with
anything. Anything to point to a conspriacy. So sorry to have to tell you
you're implicated. I tried to find that page again to show you what some
wacko thinks, but couldn't find it.

Ken

[claviger]

Notice a few people are changing positions.

[Robin Unger]

Gary Mack has spoken to Toni at the sixth floor museum.

He was the one who identified toni as being the girl in blue on the
pedestal and that was well over two months ago.

Gary was the one who gave us her real name (Toni Glover)

This was long before Toni posted to this newsgroup

[Robin Unger]

Euins shown in his standing position.( Lost Bullet DVD )

If Euins was standing in this position BEFORE he ducked behind the
pedestal. i would have thought he could have been seen in Dorman.

I searched all the Dorman frames and couldn't find him !


[IMG]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/quaneeri2/Euins2-2.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/quaneeri2/Euins2-1.jpg[/IMG]

[Jean Davison]

Of course I've seen the show. That's what I was talking
about when I said that Euins's memory had changed.

>
> >            What is it with so many CTs, that they leap right over
> > "human error" to rush to "he lied"?  Who can explain that to me?
>
> >            Euins told the WC that he was standing on the corner of Elm
> > and Houston when the shooting started, and that after he heard two
> > shots, *then* he sought cover by crouching behind the pedestal.
>
> The little girl was still there like a statue on the pedestal. If Euins
> had crouched down behind the pedestal as he said and you allege, then he
> could not have seen the third shot.

He could've looked around the side of the pedestal (as Bud's
photos show). I don't "allege" he was behind the pedestal during the
brief time covered by the Bell film.

>
> >            Euins marked his position on CE 365.  A is where he was
> > originally, on the corner across from the TSBD; B is his position
> > after the second shot:
>
> That should have been uploaded by the original poster when citing the
> Euins testimony so that people could see it in context.
>

> >    http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...

>
> Not that helpful. It doesn't show exactly where Euins was standing. And
> the resolution is so bad that most people can not tell the difference
> between the A and the B.
>
> >           Decades later, he remembered it a little differently.  There
> > is nothing unusual about that at all.  It's *normal* for memories to
> > change over time.  Look it up, if you don't believe me.
>
> And memories can be changed by outside influences. Look up Elizabeth Loftus.

Memories change for all kinds of reasons. Look up Elizabeth
Loftus yourself.

>
> >            There was no reason for Euins to be behind the pedestal on
> > the Bell film, when he could get a better view from the corner.
>
> The Bell film is not the only one and I did not use it to show where Euins
> was. If he was where he said he was he should be seen on the Dorman film.
> But YOU can't show Euins on the Dorman film. I didn't say that Euins
> started at the pedestal. He said he started at the corner and ducked
> behind the pedestal between the 2nd shot and the 3rd shot.
>
> Euins is not seen at the corner of Elm and Houston in any film or photo.

That may be, but not everyone in them can be IDed. Other photos
show him in front of the TSBD shortly after the shooting. Here he is
talking to Officer Harkness:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/lostBullet/FIG11_122111.jpg

Are you claiming he didn't see a shooter and made the whole
thing up?

> >           Euins reported what he saw to the police right away and gave
> > a statement that afternoon.  He wasn't a witness-come-lately like so
> > many others.
>
> >            http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif
>
> > Jean
>
> That's why it is so good to have you here. To come to the rescue of the
> cover-up. A few honest people listened to what I said and looked at the
> films and agree that Euins was not where he said he was. So you have to
> repair his reputation to make him a star witness.

Nonsense, Tony. It's the CTs who use Euins to suggest that the
man he saw wasn't Oswald. How many times have you quoted him saying the
man was black?

>But in doing so you
> throw Loftus under the bus and ignore her advice to always go to the
> EARLIEST statement before there is time for the person to be influenced.

Huh? His EARLIEST statement is that he was standing on the
corner when the shooting started. NOT behind the pedestal. The Bell film
shows that area only while the limo is turning down Elm. There was no
reason for him to get behind a pedestal that early.

> You don't tell us when that statement was typed up.

It's dated November 22, 1963.

>But I can guarantee
> you that it was not within minutes of the shooting and not typed up in the
> middle of Dealey Plaza. Euins's earliest statement was made to the police
> and reporters right in Dealey Plaza within minutes of the shooting. And
> Euins told the cop and the reporters that the shooter was a black man. By
> the time he got home his mother told him that people had called and
> threatened his family for saying the shooter was a black man, so he had to
> change his story.

The source is a newspaper article saying, "before Euins
testified, according to his mother the family received threatening
telephone calls." It doesn't say the calls came before he got home on
11/22, or exactly what the threats were about.

> Loftus and other memory experts do tests where they
> stage a fake crime and then ask the spectators what they saw. Some
> spectators will claim that they clearly saw something which they could not
> possibly have seen. And the videotape proves it did not happen that way.
> So here I am pointing out that the films prove that it did not happen the
> way Euins said it did and you throw out the photographic evidence and rely
> on a witness.

No! Euins's original statement and testimony are perfectly
consistent with the Bell film in that he didn't place himself at the
pedestal that early.

All I'm saying is, witnesses are often mistaken, and memories
change. That doesn't mean they are *lying*.

Jean

[darby...@aol.com]

> Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassina...

>
> Dealey  Plaza  Map  Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise  locations,
> Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet trajectories,
> Important  information &  Key Considerations, in  One  Convenient

> Resource....http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif

>
> Visual Report:  "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While

> JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "....http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif

>
> Visual Report:  Reality versus C.A.D. :

> the  Real World,  versus,  Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif

>
> Discovery:  "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
> Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and

> Directly  Towards  the  Grassy  Knoll"....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassinat...

>
> T  ogether
> E  veryone
> A  chieves
> M  ore
>
>         For the United States:
>
>        http://www.nationalterroralert.com/advisory7regional.gif
>
>        http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

I'll do my best to answer the questions.

1. My mom's name was Dorothy Glover in 1963. My parents divorced in 1958,
and she kept the name until she remarried in 1973 to Jake Best. I'm the
youngest of six. They had a boy, and then 5 girls. Mom was born October
30, 1918, named Dorothy Mae Haley in either Dallas or Rising Star, Texas.
I'll look it up.


2. We were wayyyyyy early. We probably got there around 11:15. Lots of
time for me to run around looking for the best view. I was so anxious. I
went down Elm on the grass, came back up and finally decided on the
pedestal. I do not remember anyone else there that early. I think we were
the first ones there. Someone might be able to dispute that. But that's
what I remember. Then I ran back and forth from my perch on the pedestal
to the intersection of Main and Houston to see if the motorcade coming
down Main.

3 We parked on Elm in the first block from Houston. We were so early, we
intended to drive through Dealey Plaza and see how many people there were.
and this street parking spot appeared close to Houston, and we pulled in
considering it a stroke of good luck. I cannot tell your exactly how far
down Elm we were parked. My memory says in the first block from Houston.
If anyone gets a picture of the first two blocks down Elm. I "should" be
able to pick out her car. My older sisters and brother might know the make
and model. I don't. I remember colors, and I think the car was purple with
fins. Go figure.

4. I knew a woman who had seizures so I knew what they looked like. I
remember him on the ground on the west side of Houston, I'm not sure
whether it was the north or south corners. Main street was blocked off at
Houston because it a two-way street, and he might have been very close to
lying in the street. But I think he was on the NW corner. My instinct was
to help, but there were cops calling for an ambulance, and I was so
distracted by the coming parade, that this event wasn't nearly as
important as "is the car EVER going to get to Houston!!"

5. The instant the limo disappeared onto the highway, I whirled around to
get down and the was a guy sitting on the grass, leaning against the
pedestal on the Houston side. I probably wouldn't have noticed him at all
except he wouldn't move to let me down so I had to crawl to the stone
fence to get down. I don't know who he was or where he was before I turned
around. Mom and I were shocked he wouldn't move. PLEASE, folks on the
list, I know nothing else about this guy. To the best of my memory no one
ever hid on the south end of the pedestal. BUt guys, let me qualify all
this. I was transfixed in the president's limo. I wouldn't have noticed
Mickey Mouse standing next to me during the time I had eyes on the
president. BUT when something happens that makes you change your path (not
jump off but crawl to the fence) it's memorable. I remember him being dark
complected, but mom and I thought he was Hispanic not black. Don't know
what this does to the Euins discussion, but that's what we both saw and
talked about at home. My sisters remember us telling them that, too.

6. Yes. I was up on the pedestal from the moment the limo turned onto
Houston, to the second it went under the Triple Underpass.So I was up
there for the shots. This March I was in Dallas doing research in the
Museum's Reading Room, and I decided to walk across the street to Dealey
Plaza. I climbed up on the pedestal (not an easy task at 60) and took a
video of my view, panning from Main all the way around to the underpass. I
also took a picture of my view of the head shot from the pedestal. Happy
to send either.

Let me reiterate here that I am researching people's emotional reaction
and how it effected them throughout there lives. That's why I've watched
hours of oral histories. I have never done research on who shot the
president or why.

7. There is a column in the PLaza that blocked my view for a second. I
think the first shot was when my view was blocked. I'll send the video and
you can see exactly when I could see what.

8. I have no idea how many shots were fired (I think I heard 2), but
anyone serious about this needs to go down there and listen to how much it
echoes in the canyons of downtown Dallas. I have always qualified my
answer by saying it echoed so much, I couldn't tell how many shots (at
least 2) or where any of them came from. After the first shot, I looked at
my mom, but other than that, my eyes were glued on the car. It was an
extraordinarily emotional time for me. I don't know how many people have
seen a human head explode, but I was eleven and it traumatized me. So
remembering details is mixed with a LOT of emotion. I do my best.

9. Didn't smell anything (certain on that one).

10. I saw there were cars following, but again, my gaze was transfixed on
the president's car. You can see in one of the photos I'm waving my arms
at the president as he turned the corner onto Elm. I didn't pay any
attention to the other cars.

11. In the aftermath people were stunned at first, then it became chaotic.
I had yelled "someone threw fireworks in the car" and I remember people
looking up at me cause they couldn't see anything and I could. But that
lasted only second, because I immediately tried to get down and people had
started moving down Elm.

12. As soon as I got down, I looked around for sources that might know
what's really happening, and saw a police motorcycle (maybe 2?) parked in
front of the SBD steps. I ran over there to listen to what the police were
being told. I tried not to act like I was listening. I was there for maybe
30 seconds (I don't know exactly) when I heard the words "shot in the
head." I immediately ran back to my mom. She had a heart condition and we
were always trying to protect her from stress, so I lied and said, "It
only grazed his head, let's go home." We walked the block to our car and
drove straight down Elm like any other day. It wasn't blocked off. It
amazes me that they let cars drive through the scene 5 minutes after the
assassination. Now that we have all the crime solving TV, it seems odd
that a crime scene was not blocked off. SO, in a nutshell: I was on the
pedestal until the car vanished, I got off and ran across the street to
listen to the police radios, I went back to my mom (still near the
pedestal) and told her his head was grazed and that we should leave right
away. I was acutely aware of her heart condition and wanted to get her out
of there ASAP. SO I was in the Plaza 2-3 minutes after the final shot?
Timing this is very difficult for me. It could have been 1 minute, but not
more than 5. I'm guessing it took 2-3 minutes for me to go hear the
radios, get back to my mom and leave. I know it was fast.

13. Mom died in 1996. In fact it was her death that made me start thinking
I needed to contact someone at the Museum. The thing she talked about most
was the guy who wouldn't let us down. Geez it's hard for me to remember
what she wore. I know I tried to get her up on the pedestal, but it was
high. At one point when we were waiting, we both sat on the stone fence.
But that was long before anything happened. I want to say that's mom next
to me, but I can't be sure. Logically, it would have been odd for her to
lose all dignity and climb up there. But it looks like her coat in Dorman.
the woman could definitely be my mom. It looks like I hug her as the limo
turns onto Elm. The top of the pedestal is slanted, very slightly from the
edge to the center. That made it a little tricky not to fall off. I was
probably trying to steady whoever is up there. That's the best I can do
unless I find a family picture of her in that coat. I'll tell my sisters
to go through some family albums.

14. No friends there. Only me and mom.

15. After viewing a number of oral histories, I found 2-3 that were near
my age. The museum graciously let me hold a mini "private symposium,"
focusing on their emotional journey. Neither one of them were witnesses in
Dallas that day, but they had emotional reactions similar to mine.

15. I have not followed anything in 40 years. The first few years when all
kinds of theories were coming out, I paid attention. But not since. I was
shocked to find this group. Let me interject something I know a lot about.
Many, many witnesses developed a completely irrational yet paralyzing fear
that "if I talk, someone will come get me and kill me." Laugh if you want,
but go look at the oral histories at the Sixth Floor Museum. I've watched
grown people weeping as they try to retell their experience. I've seen
professionals choke through tears. Many people did not come forward for 30
- 45 years out of a fear that someone would come get them and kill them.
My first attempt to talk to the historians at the museum was in 1988(?),
but I left. I was still afraid. I KNOW. NOT RATIONAL. Then I finally did
an oral history in 1999, and another in March this year.

I wish I had an exact schematic drawing of my end of the reflecting pool
to the corner curb. I could point out exactly where I was and when. Trying
to explain it with words doesn't produce a clear picture.

Did I answer all the questions. Parts are clear and some parts are fuzzy.
I can only do my best. That's how memory works, well my does. Clear
pieces/fuzzy pieces. Sometimes a picture clears up a fuzzy memory. I
thought trees blocked my view for that second I couldn't see the car, but
when I went back in March, I climbed up on the pedestal and discovered it
was the column, not a tree, that blocked my view. Things like that show
you how memory tries to fill in the blanks.

Toni

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 21, 10:14 am, Don Roberdeau <droberd...@aol.com> wrote:

> Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassina...

>
> Dealey  Plaza  Map  Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise  locations,
> Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet trajectories,
> Important  information &  Key Considerations, in  One  Convenient

> Resource....http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif

>
> Visual Report:  "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While

> JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "....http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif

>
> Visual Report:  Reality versus C.A.D. :

> the  Real World,  versus,  Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif

>
> Discovery:  "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
> Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and

> Directly  Towards  the  Grassy  Knoll"....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassinat...

>
> T  ogether
> E  veryone
> A  chieves
> M  ore
>
>         For the United States:
>
>        http://www.nationalterroralert.com/advisory7regional.gif
>
>        http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

I forgot the first question. My family did not hunt, but dad always had a
gun. He taught me how to fire a rifle. I was pretty good, but it was just
for fun out in the pasture. When I looked out the sniper's window last
year (for the first time), the shot looked amazingly easy to me.
Perspective is everything.

[darby...@aol.com]

And you ask me why I didn't come forward sooner?

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 20, 11:08 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/20/2012 4:13 PM, Ken McDonald wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

I WISH I was a Picasso!

For those interested. FACT: The top of the pedestal has a slight rise from
the edges to the center of it. The top is shaped like the little roof of a
house, with a peak down the middle running N. to S. It's only a 2-3 "
rise, but it's just enough to feel unstable when you're up there. It's not
flat on top. Your feet are standing at an slight angle. And as I said, it
was a long way down. Look at my height compared to the height of the
block. I say this because yes, usually people move around, but it wasn't
easy keeping your balance up there especially when you turned. I'm
GUESSING that we stayed pretty much still, until we turned toward Elm.
Then you see me kind of holding and steadying the other person when we
turned and looked at Elm. We had to go from 2 feet standing toes
down/heels up on the same side of the slant watching Houston, to one foot
on either side of the slant. The turn was tricky. That's why it doesn't
help to identify the woman as my mom "because I was holding her." IT COULD
BE MY MOM. I'm just saying I would have 'steadied' anyone I was up there
with.

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 21, 12:08 pm, "Ken McDonald" <kRmEcMdOoVnEaJlFd...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Anthony Marsh" <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message

>
> news:4f92130f$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 4/20/2012 4:13 PM, Ken McDonald wrote:
>

> >> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message

Just a thought. Someone might ask Euins what color my underwear was,
because if he crouched where he indicated, he could of seen straight up my
skirt. Just a thought.

[darby...@aol.com]

On Apr 21, 10:14 am, Don Roberdeau <droberd...@aol.com> wrote:

> Researchers Discoveries and Considerations....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassina...

>
> Dealey  Plaza  Map  Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise  locations,
> Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet trajectories,
> Important  information &  Key Considerations, in  One  Convenient

> Resource....http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/dpupdated110110.gif

>
> Visual Report:  "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While

> JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree' "....http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif

>
> Visual Report:  Reality versus C.A.D. :

> the  Real World,  versus,  Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif

>
> Discovery:  "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
> Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and

> Directly  Towards  the  Grassy  Knoll"....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassinat...

>
> T  ogether
> E  veryone
> A  chieves
> M  ore
>
>         For the United States:
>
>        http://www.nationalterroralert.com/advisory7regional.gif
>
>        http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/

When I finally talked to the Museum, I said I'd never seen a picture that
showed where I was. They sent me to Bob Porter's office. He asked what I
was wearing. I knew I had the blue ski jacket with me, but I "reasoned"
that I probably had on jeans. Then he pulled up Mark Bell's film and
stopped it on me. I literally sank to the floor, speechless. Like being
hit by a truck. There I was. Bob leaned down and said, "You had on a black
skirt, " and I instantly remembered mom picked me up at school! THAT's why
I had on a skirt. We had to wear skirts to school back then. That's the
ONLY reason I'd be wearing one. Bob also did my first oral history a few
months later.

[Anthony Marsh]

We had the same problem with Gordon Arnold. He can not be seen in any
photos and films of Dealey Plaza. Now, arguendo, if he were not dressed as
he claims he was and not where he claimed he was then he might have a
chance of seeing himself in some photo somewhere. But I even doubt that he
was in Dallas that day. And certainly the photographic evidence disproves
his claims. The same is now true with Euins. I know he was there
somewhere. We can see Harkness talking to him shortly after the shooting.

[Anthony Marsh]

No, in case you didn't notice, I expressed my doubts.
Never rely on witnesses. Always doublecheck the photographic evidence
and documents.

[Bud]

On Apr 21, 9:08 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 4/21/2012 12:07 PM, Bud wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 20, 10:12 pm, Robin Unger<quanee...@yahoo.com>  wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, April 17, 2012 5:59:27 AM UTC+9:30, (unknown) wrote:
> >>> I've been writing a memoir about watching Kennedy's head explode, and I
> >>> came across this site.
>
> >>> For what it's worth, I was standing on top of a cement block at the corner
> >>> of Houston and Elm. Eleven year old girl in a blue ski jacket. Robert
> >>> Hughes, Mark Bell and Frances Dornan films all catch glimpses.
>
> >>> And as hard as it is for folks to believe it, one little jerk fired from
> >>> the window and got off a couple of lucky shots. An idiot killed Kennedy.
> >>> One idiot who had a huge fight with his wife that morning.
>
> >>> I had a panoramic view, and there was no conspiracy. Terrible sadness, but
> >>> no conspiracy.
>
> >>> Toni
>
> >> Very Nice animated Bell GIF  (Zoomed ) Credit: Gerda Dunckel
> >> probably the clearest view we have of Toni on the pedestal.
>
> >>http://www.abload.de/img/toniinbellugkw0.gif
>
> >    Everyone seems to be accepting that it is this girl Toni on the
> > pedestal. Is this based something other than her say-so?
>
> No,

Then what else is it based on?

[Bud]

Did I?

I thought I was asking if anyone had any corroboration to your
story.

[Ken McDonald]

<darby...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ed1bc4fb-302f-40a4...@12g2000vba.googlegroups.com...

I hope that didn't happen. Someone posted a link showing Euins talking to a
police officer after the shooting, but there are no films or photos showing
him crouched behind you. I'm not saying he wasn't there, but it's only his
word that he was. As far as I know, no one else saw him there either.

Ken


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7075 (20120421) __________

[Robin Unger]

B
Do you have any corroboration to say that she is not who she claims to be

Bud

Do you have any corroboration to say that she is NOT who she claims to be ?

[Anthony Marsh]

His descriptions and reenactment do not show that. He also could have
jumped up above her. He could have looked through her legs. But the
films show that he wasn't even there where he said he was. Like Gordon
Arnold. You call Arnold a liar, but not your star witness Euins, even
when Euins said the shooter was a black man.

And that's why I say that he is slightly different from Gordon Arnold
because at least we can prove that he was actually in Dealey Plaza.
But let's say that arguendo we find a film showing him standing behind
Column B at the time of the shots. That would prove that he could not
have seen the sniper at the time of the shooting. He could have seen him
before or after the shooting.

> Are you claiming he didn't see a shooter and made the whole
> thing up?
>

My claim is that he saw one of the black men on the fifth floor and
after the shooting saw part of the rifle in the sniper's nest.

>
>>> Euins reported what he saw to the police right away and gave
>>> a statement that afternoon. He wasn't a witness-come-lately like so
>>> many others.
>>
>>> http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif
>>
>>> Jean
>>
>> That's why it is so good to have you here. To come to the rescue of the
>> cover-up. A few honest people listened to what I said and looked at the
>> films and agree that Euins was not where he said he was. So you have to
>> repair his reputation to make him a star witness.
>
> Nonsense, Tony. It's the CTs who use Euins to suggest that the
> man he saw wasn't Oswald. How many times have you quoted him saying the
> man was black?
>

I have only been able to quote it 278 times. I wish I could get that up
to 4,000 and then maybe a certain person here would see it.

>
>> But in doing so you
>> throw Loftus under the bus and ignore her advice to always go to the
>> EARLIEST statement before there is time for the person to be influenced.
>
> Huh? His EARLIEST statement is that he was standing on the
> corner when the shooting started. NOT behind the pedestal. The Bell film
> shows that area only while the limo is turning down Elm. There was no
> reason for him to get behind a pedestal that early.
>

No one even remotely resembling Euins is anywhere near that pedestal as
the limo turns the corner.

What are you calling his EARLIEST statement? The typed deposition was
not his EARLIEST statement.

>> You don't tell us when that statement was typed up.
>
> It's dated November 22, 1963.
>

Yeah, at least three hours after the shooting.

>
>> But I can guarantee
>> you that it was not within minutes of the shooting and not typed up in the
>> middle of Dealey Plaza. Euins's earliest statement was made to the police
>> and reporters right in Dealey Plaza within minutes of the shooting. And
>> Euins told the cop and the reporters that the shooter was a black man. By
>> the time he got home his mother told him that people had called and
>> threatened his family for saying the shooter was a black man, so he had to
>> change his story.
>
> The source is a newspaper article saying, "before Euins
> testified, according to his mother the family received threatening
> telephone calls." It doesn't say the calls came before he got home on
> 11/22, or exactly what the threats were about.
>

Fine, and don't dare to investigate it any further than that. And don't
ask which cop told him that it would be safer for his family if he said
the man he saw was white.
You have to be a little suspicious when a witness brings up a detail
which the lawyer was not asking about.
Like the guy who runs into the police station and screams out that he
did not shoot that 80-year-old woman and the detective says to him,
"What 80 year old woman? We haven't heard anything about a woman being
killed. I just call you in to remind you about these unpaid parking
tickets."

>
>> Loftus and other memory experts do tests where they
>> stage a fake crime and then ask the spectators what they saw. Some
>> spectators will claim that they clearly saw something which they could not
>> possibly have seen. And the videotape proves it did not happen that way.
>> So here I am pointing out that the films prove that it did not happen the
>> way Euins said it did and you throw out the photographic evidence and rely
>> on a witness.
>
> No! Euins's original statement and testimony are perfectly
> consistent with the Bell film in that he didn't place himself at the
> pedestal that early.
>

He was never at that pedestal and he was nowhere near it when the
shooting started.

> All I'm saying is, witnesses are often mistaken, and memories
> change. That doesn't mean they are *lying*.
>

I like the way you cover up government corruption. Maybe those billions
of dollars just fell off the truck and landed in Cheney's pockets.
Reminds me of the excuse the Mafia punks would always make up.

> Jean
>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

Not good enough. You didn't check the Martin film or the Towner film or
the Hughes film or the Couch film or the Jeffries photo. Wasn't it YOU
who spotted Rosemary in the Jeffries photo?

[Anthony Marsh]

Jeez, you're not trying hard enough. You should be claiming that Jack
White calls her a shooter.
Badge Girl.

[darby...@aol.com]

Ah. And I have none other than the back of my head. Anyone could
reasonably consider that inadequate. I think this group is for people
who study the assassination and know enough to argue about it. I am a
witness, not an expert. If you want to keep in touch, feel free. But
I'll leave this discussion to the experts, of which I am not. It's
been fun. I hope I answered your questions adequately. Toni

[Robin Unger]

Tony

Feel free to check the films for yourself

Why do i have to do all the leg work.( Hours and hours searching the films
frame after frame )

Robin.

[Bud]

<snicker> Is that how you think it`s done?

[Ken McDonald]

<darby...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a657c34c-999f-4186...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

I hope you're not planning on leaving. You have been refreshing. I hope
you can see that you generated much discussion and everyone has treated
you with respect. There are many quality researches here that may jog your
memories by asking questions. You just never know.

Ken

[Bud]

Yes. It`s hard to give any weight to your claims unless your
identity as the girl on the pedestal can be established.

I tend to think you are that person, but my skeptical nature has
some reservations. I don`t think I can remember much about anything at
all when I was eleven, including envy of classmates (or even names),
clothes I wore, details about things I stood on, ect.

[pjsp...@aol.com]

Thank you, Toni. Chapters 5 through 9 on my website, Patspeer.com,
comprise a comprehensive collection of witness statements. I have added
your comments to chapter 7b, and have classified your statements as
supporting the dominant scenario. Over the last few decades, people
anxious to pin the shooting on Oswald and Oswald alone have tried to give
him more time to have fired the shots by pretending the first shot was
fired while the limo was directly in front of the depository, or even as
it just made the turn. Your comments support that it came shortly
afterward--too close to the time Connally was first hit for Oswald to have
fired both shots. Which means--if they were hit by the same shot--it was
the first one.

While one can muse that you simply failed to hear the first shot, the fact
is that a number of those closest to Kennedy at the time of the first shot
also heard but two shots, and saw him react to the first, and that those
furthest from the shots heard the last two shots together bang bang. As a
result, one can only conclude that those hearing but two shots heard this
bang bang as one bang.

Is that about right? Was there a 5 second or so gap between the shots you
heard? Or did you hear the two shots bang bang?

[Anthony Marsh]

You mean the way they did with James Files and Gordon Arnold?

[Anthony Marsh]

Because everyone depends on your keen eye.
I started this by posting that Euins is nowhere to be seen and even if
he was behind the pedestal the little girl would have blocked his view.
And within seconds the WC defenders rallied to deny the obvious.

[Jean Davison]

Do you really not get it? Oh, well.

I've never called Arnold a liar. I think the poor man
believed he was there.

So where do you think he was standing, that he could see
the men on the fifth floor but couldn't see the sniper directly above
them?

>
>
>
> >>>            Euins reported what he saw to the police right away and gave
> >>> a statement that afternoon.  He wasn't a witness-come-lately like so
> >>> many others.
>
> >>>            http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/12/1284-001.gif
>
> >>> Jean
>
> >> That's why it is so good to have you here. To come to the rescue of the
> >> cover-up. A few honest people listened to what I said and looked at the
> >> films and agree that Euins was not where he said he was. So you have to
> >> repair his reputation to make him a star witness.
>
> >            Nonsense, Tony.  It's the CTs who use Euins to suggest that the
> > man he saw wasn't Oswald.  How many times have you quoted him saying the
> > man was black?
>
> I have only been able to quote it 278 times. I wish I could get that up
> to 4,000 and then maybe a certain person here would see it.

You've called him a liar, but you want to quote him 4,000
times. Okay.

>
>
>
> >> But in doing so you
> >> throw Loftus under the bus and ignore her advice to always go to the
> >> EARLIEST statement before there is time for the person to be influenced.
>
> >             Huh?  His EARLIEST statement is that he was standing on the
> > corner when the shooting started.  NOT behind the pedestal.  The Bell film
> > shows that area only while the limo is turning down Elm.  There was no
> > reason for him to get behind a pedestal that early.
>
> No one even remotely resembling Euins is anywhere near that pedestal as
> the limo turns the corner.

No one has positively ID-ed him in any film or photo, but that
doesn't mean he's not there. Euins looks very short in this photo with
Harkness. Maybe he's hidden behind someone or some object.

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/images/news/lostBullet/FIG11_122111.jpg

>
> What are you calling his EARLIEST statement? The typed deposition was
> not his EARLIEST statement.

That's his earliest firsthand statement so far as I know.
If you want to count statements from Underwood and Biffle, go ahead, but
what does that have to do with where he was standing? In his earliest
statement and in his testimony, he didn't place himself behind the
pedestal during the time covered by the Bell film. Why do you ignore that
and go with a reenactment many years later? (Remember what you said about
Elizabeth Loftus.)

>
> >> You don't tell us when that statement was typed up.
>
> >              It's dated November 22, 1963.
>
> Yeah, at least three hours after the shooting.
>
>
>
> >> But I can guarantee
> >> you that it was not within minutes of the shooting and not typed up in the
> >> middle of Dealey Plaza. Euins's earliest statement was made to the police
> >> and reporters right in Dealey Plaza within minutes of the shooting. And
> >> Euins told the cop and the reporters that the shooter was a black man. By
> >> the time he got home his mother told him that people had called and
> >> threatened his family for saying the shooter was a black man, so he had to
> >> change his story.
>
> >           The source is a newspaper article saying, "before Euins
> > testified, according to his mother the family received threatening
> > telephone calls."  It doesn't say the calls came before he got home on
> > 11/22, or exactly what the threats were about.
>
> Fine, and don't dare to investigate it any further than that. And don't
> ask which cop told him that it would be safer for his family if he said
> the man he saw was white.

What cop?

> You have to be a little suspicious when a witness brings up a detail
> which the lawyer was not asking about.
> Like the guy who runs into the police station and screams out that he
> did not shoot that 80-year-old woman and the detective says to him,
> "What 80 year old woman? We haven't heard anything about a woman being
> killed. I just call you in to remind you about these unpaid parking
> tickets."

????

>
>
>
> >> Loftus and other memory experts do tests where they
> >> stage a fake crime and then ask the spectators what they saw. Some
> >> spectators will claim that they clearly saw something which they could not
> >> possibly have seen. And the videotape proves it did not happen that way.
> >> So here I am pointing out that the films prove that it did not happen the
> >> way Euins said it did and you throw out the photographic evidence and rely
> >> on a witness.
>
> >              No!  Euins's original statement and testimony are perfectly
> > consistent with the Bell film in that he didn't place himself at the
> > pedestal that early.
>
> He was never at that pedestal and he was nowhere near it when the
> shooting started.

An unsupportable claim, Tony.

>
> > All I'm saying is, witnesses are often mistaken, and memories
> > change.  That doesn't mean they are *lying*.
>
> I like the way you cover up government corruption. Maybe those billions
> of dollars just fell off the truck and landed in Cheney's pockets.
> Reminds me of the excuse the Mafia punks would always make up.

How the heck did I cover up government corruption?? I'm
no Cheney fan, but I did enjoy those Mafia punks in "The Sopranos."


Jean

[Anthony Marsh]

That means nothing. No one said that they saw the Black Dog Man until many
years later when Rosemary Willis said she saw that man there. And Zapruder
and Sitzman were only a few feet behind him. We even have some WC
defenders who are so desperate to cover up ANYTHING that they claim there
was no person there. One claims it was a tree trunk. One kook claims it
was a black woman holding her baby. But photographic experts prove that it
was a white man in a black suit. Do we ever see him again in any other
film? Maybe, maybe not. But that is not necessary to prove that there was
a person behind the retaining wall during the shooting. I leave it to the
kooks to make up stories that he was a shooter. I know there was no shot
fired from there.

[Bud]

What was obvious was that you couldn`t support your assertion.

[Don Roberdeau]

> I'll do my best to answer the questions.
>
> 1. My mom's name was Dorothy Glover in 1963. My parents divorced in 1958,
> and she kept the name until she remarried in 1973 to Jake Best. I'm the
> youngest of six. They had a boy, and then 5 girls. Mom was born October
> 30, 1918, named Dorothy Mae Haley in either Dallas or Rising Star, Texas.
> I'll look it up.
>
> 2. We were wayyyyyy early. We probably got there around 11:15. Lots of
> time for me to run around looking for the best view. I was so anxious. I
> went down Elm on the grass, came back up and finally decided on the
> pedestal. I do not remember anyone else there that early. I think we were
> the first ones there. Someone might be able to dispute that. But that's
> what I remember. Then I ran back and forth from my perch on the pedestal
> to the intersection of Main and Houston to see if the motorcade coming
> down Main.
>
> 3 We parked on Elm in the first block from Houston. We were so early, we
> intended to drive through Dealey Plaza and see how many people there were.
> and this street parking spot appeared close to Houston, and we pulled in
> considering it a stroke of good luck. I cannot tell your exactly how far
> down Elm we were parked. My memory says in the first block from Houston.
> If anyone gets a picture of the first two blocks down Elm. I "should" be
> able to pick out her car. My older sisters and brother might know the make
> and model. I don't. I remember colors, and I think the car was purple with
> fins. Go figure.
>
> 4. I knew a woman who had seizures so I knew what they looked like. I
> remember him on the ground on the west side of Houston, I'm not sure
> whether it was the north or south corners. Main street was blocked off at
> Houston because it a two-way street, and he might have been very close to
> lying in the street. But I think he was on the NW corner. My instinct was
> to help, but there were cops calling for an ambulance, and I was so
> distracted by the coming parade, that this event wasn't nearly as
> important as "is the car EVER going to get to Houston!!"
>
> 5. The instant the limo disappeared onto the highway, I whirled around to
> get down and the was a guy sitting on the grass, leaning against the
> pedestal on the Houston side. I probably wouldn't have noticed him at all
> except he wouldn't move to let me down so I had to crawl to the stone
> fence to get down. I don't know who he was or where he was before I turned
> around. Mom and I were shocked he wouldn't move. PLEASE, folks on the
> list, I know nothing else about this guy. To the best of my memory no one
> ever hid on the south end of the pedestal. BUt guys, let me qualify all
> this. I was transfixed in the president's limo. I wouldn't have noticed
> Mickey Mouse standing next to me during the time I had eyes on the
> president. BUT when something happens that makes you change your path (not
> jump off but crawl to the fence) it's memorable. I remember him being dark
> complected, but mom and I thought he was Hispanic not black. Don't know
> what this does to the Euins discussion, but that's what we both saw and
> talked about at home. My sisters remember us telling them that, too.
>
> 6. Yes. I was up on the pedestal from the moment the limo turned onto
> Houston, to the second it went under the Triple Underpass.So I was up
> there for the shots. This March I was in Dallas doing research in the
> Museum's Reading Room, and I decided to walk across the street to Dealey
> Plaza. I climbed up on the pedestal (not an easy task at 60) and took a
> video of my view, panning from Main all the way around to the underpass. I
> also took a picture of my view of the head shot from the pedestal. Happy
> to send either.
>
> Let me reiterate here that I am researching people's emotional reaction
> and how it effected them throughout there lives. That's why I've watched
> hours of oral histories. I have never done research on who shot the
> president or why.
>
> 7. There is a column in the PLaza that blocked my view for a second. I
> think the first shot was when my view was blocked. I'll send the video and
> you can see exactly when I could see what.
>
> 8. I have no idea how many shots were fired (I think I heard 2), but
> anyone serious about this needs to go down there and listen to how much it
> echoes in the canyons of downtown Dallas. I have always qualified my
> answer by saying it echoed so much, I couldn't tell how many shots (at
> least 2) or where any of them came from. After the first shot, I looked at
> my mom, but other than that, my eyes were glued on the car. It was an
> extraordinarily emotional time for me. I don't know how many people have
> seen a human head explode, but I was eleven and it traumatized me. So
> remembering details is mixed with a LOT of emotion. I do my best.
>
> 9. Didn't smell anything (certain on that one).
>
> 10. I saw there were cars following, but again, my gaze was transfixed on
> the president's car. You can see in one of the photos I'm waving my arms
> at the president as he turned the corner onto Elm. I didn't pay any
> attention to the other cars.
>
> 11. In the aftermath people were stunned at first, then it became chaotic.
> I had yelled "someone threw fireworks in the car" and I remember people
> looking up at me cause they couldn't see anything and I could. But that
> lasted only second, because I immediately tried to get down and people had
> started moving down Elm.
>
> 12. As soon as I got down, I looked around for sources that might know
> what's really happening, and saw a police motorcycle (maybe 2?) parked in
> front of the SBD steps. I ran over there to listen to what the police were
> being told. I tried not to act like I was listening. I was there for maybe
> 30 seconds (I don't know exactly) when I heard the words "shot in the
> head." I immediately ran back to my mom. She had a heart condition and we
> were always trying to protect her from stress, so I lied and said, "It
> only grazed his head, let's go home." We walked the block to our car and
> drove straight down Elm like any other day. It wasn't blocked off. It
> amazes me that they let cars drive through the scene 5 minutes after the
> assassination. Now that we have all the crime solving TV, it seems odd
> that a crime scene was not blocked off. SO, in a nutshell: I was on the
> pedestal until the car vanished, I got off and ran across the street to
> listen to the police radios, I went back to my mom (still near the
> pedestal) and told her his head was grazed and that we should leave right
> away. I was acutely aware of her heart condition and wanted to get her out
> of there ASAP. SO I was in the Plaza 2-3 minutes after the final shot?
> Timing this is very difficult for me. It could have been 1 minute, but not
> more than 5. I'm guessing it took 2-3 minutes for me to go hear the
> radios, get back to my mom and leave. I know it was fast.
>
> 13. Mom died in 1996. In fact it was her death that made me start thinking
> I needed to contact someone at the Museum. The thing she talked about most
> was the guy who wouldn't let us down. Geez it's hard for me to remember
> what she wore. I know I tried to get her up on the pedestal, but it was
> high. At one point when we were waiting, we both sat on the stone fence.
> But that was long before anything happened. I want to say that's mom next
> to me, but I can't be sure. Logically, it would have been odd for her to
> lose all dignity and climb up there. But it looks like her coat in Dorman.
> the woman could definitely be my mom. It looks like I hug her as the limo
> turns onto Elm. The top of the pedestal is slanted, very slightly from the
> edge to the center. That made it a little tricky not to fall off. I was
> probably trying to steady whoever is up there. That's the best I can do
> unless I find a family picture of her in that coat. I'll tell my sisters
> to go through some family albums.
>
> 14. No friends there. Only me and mom.
>
> 15. After viewing a number of oral histories, I found 2-3 that were near
> my age. The museum graciously let me hold a mini "private symposium,"
> focusing on their emotional journey. Neither one of them were witnesses in
> Dallas that day, but they had emotional reactions similar to mine.
>
> 15. I have not followed anything in 40 years. The first few years when all
> kinds of theories were coming out, I paid attention. But not since. I was
> shocked to find this group. Let me interject something I know a lot about.
> Many, many witnesses developed a completely irrational yet paralyzing fear
> that "if I talk, someone will come get me and kill me." Laugh if you want,
> but go look at the oral histories at the Sixth Floor Museum. I've watched
> grown people weeping as they try to retell their experience. I've seen
> professionals choke through tears. Many people did not come forward for 30
> - 45 years out of a fear that someone would come get them and kill them.
> My first attempt to talk to the historians at the museum was in 1988(?),
> but I left. I was still afraid. I KNOW. NOT RATIONAL. Then I finally did
> an oral history in 1999, and another in March this year.
>
> I wish I had an exact schematic drawing of my end of the reflecting pool
> to the corner curb. I could point out exactly where I was and when. Trying
> to explain it with words doesn't produce a clear picture.
>
> Did I answer all the questions. Parts are clear and some parts are fuzzy.
> I can only do my best. That's how memory works, well my does. Clear
> pieces/fuzzy pieces. Sometimes a picture clears up a fuzzy memory. I
> thought trees blocked my view for that second I couldn't see the car, but
> when I went back in March, I climbed up on the pedestal and discovered it
> was the column, not a tree, that blocked my view. Things like that show
> you how memory tries to fill in the blanks.
>
> Toni


.... Good  Day Toni .... Sorry to hear about your Mom passing on. Please
accept my very sincere condolences.

Along with your observations, I was truly hoping to also learn the details
that your Mom recalled with respect to the assassination. Can you please
detail what she shared about 11-22-63? Was she wearing a longish, light
colored coat (possibly beige) that day?; in clear Zapruder frames there
looks to be someone sitting atop the North Reflecting Pool’s east side
wall, about 5’ to 6’ south of the pedesta l you stood on, facing
towards you.

Recently also lost a Loved One who was a Best Friend, and have a Longtime
Friend who was a 3x-un-defeated football fellow-Champion Teammate
fellow-linebacker who is “knockin’ on heaven’s door” since his
being stricken with pancreas, liver, and spinal tumors.

Thank You, very much,  for providing your additional details for us from
my questions, and for your emails and sharing your photos and video. I am
looking forward to speaking with you.


All of your observations are truly interesting, and, several of them
are very, very interesting....

~ ~ ~ ~ E-e-e-especially interesting is your primary observation
that you could  NOT  see President Kennedy when the  first shot that
you remembered hearing was fired….


I simply must ask again,  so  everything  is  crystal  clear….  Are
you 100% certain that JFK had already gone out of your view when
you heard the first shot? …. If not, how many  second(s)  had he
already been  out  of your view?)


….That key time stamping detail of JFK being out of your view when a
shot was fired led me to photo-grammatically locate your exact
location, as determined by the multiple, intersecting lines-of-sight
for you as seen in the Bell, Hughes, and Dorman films, and I
determined your precise location to be here, shown on my scaled,
accurate Dealey Plaza map….

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/711/toniglover042212.gif

(if that map appears small when you initially open it, simply click
on it to enlarge)

(: An aside…. On that map I have had the scaled presidential limousine
placed at that specific location for many, many years, and, the
location of President Kennedy’s head within that limo is exactly even
with you, Toni :)


Very interestingly, and exactly as your detailed assassination
observations stated, President Kennedy could have first gone out of
your view when the pyracantha tree foliage a few feet north of the
large, tall cement column-monument first started to block JFK from
your view at  Z-174 to 175 (labeled “TGt-1” for your line-of-sight to
JFK on my DP map) (the pyracantha tree foliage round outline is
colored in green and sized on my scaled, accurate DP map exactly as it
was seen in photos and films on 11-22-63)

If the pyracantha tree did  not  first block your view of JFK, then,
exactly as you stated, the tall column-monument’s north, pointed
side definitely would have first started to block President Kennedy
from your view at  Z-180 to 181 (labeled “TGc-1” for your line-of-
sight on my DP map)


Then, as you stated, President Kennedy would have been visible to you,
again, just past the south side of the tall column-monument, starting
at  Z-217 to 218 (labeled “TGc-2” for your line-of-sight on my DP map)

(employing the standard AVERAGE running time of the Zapruder film of
18.3 frames-per-second,  JFK would have been out of your view for
exactly 2.3 seconds  (if the pyracantha tree first blocked him),  to
 2.0 seconds (if the column-monument first blocked him)

I will also say that your timing of the first shot that you heard
happening between Z-174 and 218 is right in line with many of the
close witnesses and close weapons-experienced witnesses who stated
that JFK, first, started waving (which he starts at Z-170 to 171),
 and after he first started waving,  THEN  the first shot happened and
he immediately, dramatically, physically quickly reacted to it
impacting him ultra-rapidly snapping his head 87-degrees at Z-203 to
206, shaking his head, raising his arms/hands, and then facing back
towards and leaning towards his wife.


Here’s something I discovered today that am sure that you will
appreciate,  and that since you have not mentioned it, you have not
noticed, nor has anyone pointed out for you….until now….

Being very familiar with the plaza, its perspectives, measurements,
etc,  I had a feeling about something,  so, I drew the line-of-sight
on my scaled, accurate DP map  from Mr. Zapruder’s camera lens,  to
you….


. . . . I  am  absolutely  certain  that  you  are  in  the  Zapruder
 film !!!!


Including on my accurate map Mr. Zapruder’s camera line-of-sight to
your location led me to closely examining several of the clear
Zapruder frames between 177 and about 216.

There  surely  is,  what  positively  appears to be to me,  your  blue-
coated arm + hand that is lowered and still away from your side (since
the torso, vertical side of your coat is not seen).

Your arm/hand  can just be seen in the Zapruder film along the south
side of the column-monument (along the right side of the column-
monument as seen in the Zap film).  I can provide the Zap frames for
you, if you want.

As you stated when you continued to strive to see JFK, this was
probably your arm and hand because you had  turned and  were then
facing  the  grassy kno!!

(and/or, striving to keep safely balanced atop your pedestal, as you
stated)

Your arm/hand also looks like they changed positions a bit during
during those 2.1 seconds between Z-177 to 216

Your arm/hand also appear at what would have been the correct height
while you were, as you stated, still standing up elevated on
 “Glover’s  pedestal”  during the shots

(:  Yes…. I now think we researchers should label that pedestal for
you!  :)

Also, I have actually stood atop and videotaped from what is, now and
forever, for me,  “Glover’s pedestal,”  and I know that you could have
seen over the North Peristyle’s western-most cement (lower wall), and
also westward you could have seen through the open spaces underneath
the 2 trees foliage, and that, as you stated earlier, you could have
seen President Kennedy at Z-313.  (I have also just finished checking
photos and films captured from 11-22-63 and the days thereafter to
confirm those trees had enough viewing clearance under them, then)

And just to make certain it is asked…. The president’s head did
explode simultaneously with the 2nd shot you heard?

Quick question…. after JFK first was hidden from your view at Z-174 to
181 ,  and then,  the first shot that you remembered was fired,  do
you recall if you backed-up a foot or two southward on your pedestal,
or, did you stand un-moving? …. Do you recall if the first shot you
remembered hearing while JFK was out of your view made your upper body/
arms jump some or a lot in startlement?

Can you please estimate exactly how many seconds were there between
the 2 shots you heard?

Best  Regards  in  Research,

        Don


Donald  Roberdeau

DRoberdeau @ aol.com (no spaces)
United  States  Navy
U.S.S.  John  F.  Kennedy,  CV-67,  plank  walker
Sooner,  or  later,  The  Truth  emerges  Clearly

For  your  key  considerations....

Homepages:  President KENNEDY  "Men  of  Courage"  speech, and

Assassination Evidence,Witnesses, Suspects + OutstandingResearchers
Discoveries and Considerations....http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/

2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

Dealey  Plaza  Map  Detailing 11-22-63 Victims precise  locations,
Evidence, Witnesses, Films & Photos, Suspected bullet

trajectories,Important  information &  Key Considerations, in  One

 Convenient  Resource....http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/2192/
dpupdated110110.gif


Visual Report:  "The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While
JFK was Still Hidden Under the 'Magic-limbed-ricochet-
tree' "....http://img504.imageshack.us/
img504/2446/206cropjfk1102308ms8.gif


Visual Report:  Reality versus C.A.D. :
the  Real World,  versus,  Garbage-In, Garbage-Out....http://
img248.imageshack.us/img248/8543/realityvscad.gif


Discovery:  "Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS
Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, andDirectly
 Towards  the  Grassy  Knoll".... http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/

2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html


T  together

[Ken McDonald]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:4f9454ce$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

I'm basically a newbie here. I try to answer questions that I know about,
but have a ton of questions myself. I wasn't aware that James Files and
Gordon Arnold were here on this mewsgroup. I don't believe you are saying
that, but want to cover my bases. I depend on guys like you to point out
my mistakes and point me in the right direction because you are an actual
researcher. So far you're the only one because I'm basically ignored by
everyone except you. I've ordered at least three DVDs because of you and
I'm not trying to become your buddy or swell your head. Just stating fact.

I don't know James Files. As far as I know, the only photo that has the
remote possibility that Arnold was there, is the Moorman photo and he's in
the shadows with badgeman. I don't believe Arnold's story. I think he said
that some law enfrorcement official made him give his camera to him, but
no one saw that and he isn't in any other film or photo. I know Senator
Yarborough said that he saw someone in a uniform hit the deck so to speak,
but I think he saw Bill Newman.

As far as Toni goes, there is something that bothers me. As far as I know,
school was out that day so the kids could see the motorcade. Can't
remember where I saw it or read about it. She could be mistaken because
it's been 49 years for her if she was 11 so I'm giving her the benifit of
doubt.

Ken

[Ken McDonald]

"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:4f945817$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

> On 4/22/2012 2:37 PM, Robin Unger wrote:
>> On Sunday, April 22, 2012 9:16:45 PM UTC+9:30, Anthony Marsh wrote:
>>> On 4/21/2012 9:01 PM, Robin Unger wrote:
>>>> Euins shown in his standing position.( Lost Bullet DVD )
>>>>
>>>> If Euins was standing in this position BEFORE he ducked behind the
>>>> pedestal. i would have thought he could have been seen in Dorman.
>>>>
>>>> I searched all the Dorman frames and couldn't find him !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [IMG]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/quaneeri2/Euins2-2.jpg[/IMG]
>>>>
>>>> [IMG]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/quaneeri2/Euins2-1.jpg[/IMG]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not good enough. You didn't check the Martin film or the Towner film or
>>> the Hughes film or the Couch film or the Jeffries photo. Wasn't it YOU
>>> who spotted Rosemary in the Jeffries photo?
>>
>> Tony
>>
>> Feel free to check the films for yourself
>>
>> Why do i have to do all the leg work.( Hours and hours searching the
>> films
>> frame after frame )
>>
>> Robin.
>>

All I ask of Anthony is to point me in the right direction. I don't mind
doing the leg work. He has his own projects to work on. Why should he? I'm
here to learn and doing my own leg work is teaching me to become a
researcher. I've worked on things that have taken me days. I've become
burned out and have had to give it a rest, and come back to it. Maybe I'll
see something that everyone has overlooked. You never know.

Ken

>
> Because everyone depends on your keen eye.
> I started this by posting that Euins is nowhere to be seen and even if he
> was behind the pedestal the little girl would have blocked his view. And
> within seconds the WC defenders rallied to deny the obvious.
>

I agree that if he tried, he couldn't have seen through the little girl,
but the possibility that he could have found another way to see the
snipers nest exists. Unless you know he couldn't have seen the snipers
nest by looking around the little girl or looking around the cement block
while in a crouched position it could have happened. I realize it's only
his word that he crouched behind the cement block and there are not films
or photos to prove he did.

Ken

[Anthony Marsh]

Most people agreed with my assertion. Only a certain habitual naysayer
disagreed.