Ray McGovern, former CIA analyst warns of the CIA covert arm
Thalia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
"It’s very well-researched and his conclusion is very alarming.”
On Barack Obama:
"Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
(current CIA Director), and to a degree Obama, are afraid – I never
thought I’d hear myself saying this – I think they are afraid of the
CIA.”
Coondog
If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
to do his dirty work?
So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
Bill Clarke
Thalia
I accept that many fine individuals have worked for the CIA over the
years. However, the CIA (it's covert arm) has acted like an unelected
dictator at times, and involved itself in all sorts of evil schemes.
Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
JFK. Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
the military arm of the corporate elite. Read what President Truman
said about the agency in a published essay in a Washington newpaper,
written just one month after Kennedy's death:
"I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose
and
operations of our Central Intelligence Agency --- CIA... For some time
I
have been disturbed by the way the CIA has been diverted from its
original
assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making
arm
of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded
our
difficulties in several explosive areas.
We have grown up as a nation, respected for our free institutions and
for
our ability to maintain a free and open society. There is something
about
the way the CIA has been functioning that is casting a shadow over
our
historic position and I feel that we need to correct it."
EXPLOSIVE AREAS. What telling words. Those words tell us that he
suspected, as did many in Washington, that the CIA had played a role
on the execution of Kennedy. Funnily enough, the essay was pulled from
the evening edition of the newspaper, and most people, of course,
would never read the essay because no other newpapers picked up the
story, which is strange because Truman was a former President and had
been the one to set the agency up in the first place. Of course, many
editors and journo was "agency assets" and actively participated in
disseminating Agency propaganda in the media.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>>
>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>>
>>
>> On Barack Obama:
>>
>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
>> thought I?d hear myself saying this ? I think they are afraid of the
>> CIA.?
>
> If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
> should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
Oh, you mean the way President Kennedy said that he was going to fire
Richard Helms after he got back from the trip to Dallas? Or the way
Richard Nixon fired Richard Helms and then Helms got his revenge with
Watergate.
> you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
> CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
> the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
> to do his dirty work?
>
Why not take it out on the CIA which always lied and disobeys the
President.
> So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
> the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>
I gave the reason a long time ago. They killed Frank Olson, and
threatened my father and his family.
> Bill Clarke
>
John Blubaugh
I'll give you one reason, plausible deniability. This is the CIA creed and
is poured over everything they do. Do you believe the CIA really reports
to Obama? (sigh) I suppose you do.
JB
Coondog
> On Nov 27, 1:42 pm, Coondog <billcla...@live.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia <thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>
> > > On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>
> > > "It’s very well-researched and his conclusion is very alarming.”
>
> > > On Barack Obama:
>
> > > "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
> > > (current CIA Director), and to a degree Obama, are afraid – I never
> > > thought I’d hear myself saying this – I think they are afraid of the
> > > CIA.”
>
> > If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
> > should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
> > you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
> > CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
> > the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
> > to do his dirty work?
>
> > So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
> > the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>
> > Bill Clarke
>
> I accept that many fine individuals have worked for the CIA over the
> years. However, the CIA (it's covert arm) has acted like an unelected
> dictator at times, and involved itself in all sorts of evil schemes.
How do we know it wasn’t the sitting president that involved them in
these evil schemes? In fact, in many cases we know that it was in
fact the president that had involved them, sometimes against their
will.
> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
> JFK.
We’ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
evidence come back to see me.
> Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
> CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
> seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
> the military arm of the corporate elite.
Some of the clearest examples of the CIA acting as a hired gun for
American industry are the little flaps in Guatemala and Iran where the
U.S. removed one government and replaced it with one more to our liking.
Both operations were approved by Ike so again we are back to the sitting
president. Then there is that nasty little deal which resulted in
Diem’s death but we won’t go there today.
> Read what President Truman
> said about the agency in a published essay in a Washington newpaper,
> written just one month after Kennedy's death:
Truman was no fan of intelligence operations and when he disbanded the OSS
he had no plans to replace it. How naive of him.
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 27, 7:39 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 27, 1:42 pm, Coondog<billcla...@live.com> wrote:
>>> On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>>
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>>
>>>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>>
>>
>>>> On Barack Obama:
>>
>>>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
>>>> thought I�d hear myself saying this � I think they are afraid of the
>>>> CIA.�
>>
>>> If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
>>> should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
>>> you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
>>> CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
>>> the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
>>> to do his dirty work?
>>
>>> So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
>>> the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>>
>>> Bill Clarke
>>
>> I accept that many fine individuals have worked for the CIA over the
>> years. However, the CIA (it's covert arm) has acted like an unelected
>> dictator at times, and involved itself in all sorts of evil schemes.
>
> these evil schemes? In fact, in many cases we know that it was in
> fact the president that had involved them, sometimes against their
> will.
>
How do you KNOW anything involving the President and the CIA? Prove it,
right here right now. You speculate.
>> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
>> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
>> JFK.
>
> We�ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
> evidence come back to see me.
>
Eisenhower and Nixon were the ones who approved the Castro plots.
Not Kennedy.
>> Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
>> CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
>> seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
>> the military arm of the corporate elite.
>
> Some of the clearest examples of the CIA acting as a hired gun for
> American industry are the little flaps in Guatemala and Iran where the
> U.S. removed one government and replaced it with one more to our liking.
Hired gun? I'd like to see you document that Dulles was paid by United
Fruit rather than obeying Presidential orders.
> Both operations were approved by Ike so again we are back to the sitting
> president. Then there is that nasty little deal which resulted in
> Diem�s death but we won�t go there today.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 27, 1:42 pm, Coondog<billcla...@live.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>>
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>>
>>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>>
>>
>>> On Barack Obama:
>>
>>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
>>> CIA.�
>>
>> If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
>> should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
>> you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
>> CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
>> the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
>> to do his dirty work?
>>
>> So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
>> the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>>
>> Bill Clarke
>
> I accept that many fine individuals have worked for the CIA over the
> years. However, the CIA (it's covert arm) has acted like an unelected
> dictator at times, and involved itself in all sorts of evil schemes.
And continues to do so.
> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
The Castro plots were authorized by President Eisenhower and overseen by
Vice-President Nixon.
> JFK. Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
> CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
> seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
> the military arm of the corporate elite. Read what President Truman
> said about the agency in a published essay in a Washington newpaper,
> written just one month after Kennedy's death:
>
> "I think it has become necessary to take another look at the purpose
> and
> operations of our Central Intelligence Agency --- CIA... For some time
> I
> have been disturbed by the way the CIA has been diverted from its
> original
> assignment. It has become an operational and at times a policy-making
> arm
> of the Government. This has led to trouble and may have compounded
> our
> difficulties in several explosive areas.
>
>
Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Coondog
> On 11/27/2009 12:42 AM, Coondog wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>
> >> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>
> >> "It?s very well-researched and his conclusion is very alarming.?
>
> >> On Barack Obama:
>
> >> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
> >> (current CIA Director), and to a degree Obama, are afraid ? I never
> >> thought I?d hear myself saying this ? I think they are afraid of the
> >> CIA.?
>
> > If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
> > should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
>
> Oh, you mean the way President Kennedy said that he was going to fire
> Richard Helms after he got back from the trip to Dallas? Or the way
> Richard Nixon fired Richard Helms and then Helms got his revenge with
> Watergate.
I guess the moral of this story is it is best not to mess with Dick
Helms.
> > you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
> > CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
> > the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
> > to do his dirty work?
>
> Why not take it out on the CIA which always lied and disobeys the
> President.
This is a false statement and you make many of them. Your use of
“always” and “all” doom many of your messages to the dust bin.
> > So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
> > the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>
> I gave the reason a long time ago. They killed Frank Olson, and
> threatened my father and his family.
So they threatened you as well? Damn Marsh, that is pretty heavy.
I’m sorry for your mistreatment.
Bill Clarke
Coondog
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bless you. I’ve been preaching plausible denial but didn’t think
anyone was tuned in.
Bill Clarke
Coondog
> On 11/27/2009 1:44 PM, Coondog wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 27, 7:39 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 27, 1:42 pm, Coondog<billcla...@live.com> wrote:
> >>> On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>
> >>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>
> >>>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>
>
> >>>> On Barack Obama:
>
> >>>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
> >>>> thought I’d hear myself saying this – I think they are afraid of the
> >>>> CIA.”
>
> >>> If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
> >>> should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
> >>> you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
> >>> CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
> >>> the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
> >>> to do his dirty work?
>
> >>> So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
> >>> the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>
> >>> Bill Clarke
>
> >> I accept that many fine individuals have worked for the CIA over the
> >> years. However, the CIA (it's covert arm) has acted like an unelected
> >> dictator at times, and involved itself in all sorts of evil schemes.
>
> > these evil schemes? In fact, in many cases we know that it was in
> > fact the president that had involved them, sometimes against their
> > will.
>
> How do you KNOW anything involving the President and the CIA? Prove it,
> right here right now. You speculate.
Well ,Jesus Angleton, perhaps I have a mole in place at the CIA. What
I know about the CIA comes from what I read. Just like you. I can’t
prove it just like you can’t prove it.
> >> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
> >> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
> >> JFK.
>
> > We’ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
> > evidence come back to see me.
>
> Eisenhower and Nixon were the ones who approved the Castro plots.
> Not Kennedy.
Yes, that is true. What is also true is that Kennedy ended up the goat
for not stopping the fool operation. There is, of course, a parallel to
this; Nixon and Ike also planned and approved the Castro assassinations
and Kennedy ended up the goat for not stopping the fool operation. Some
say Bobby escalated the attempts!
> >> Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
> >> CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
> >> seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
> >> the military arm of the corporate elite.
>
> > Some of the clearest examples of the CIA acting as a hired gun for
> > American industry are the little flaps in Guatemala and Iran where the
> > U.S. removed one government and replaced it with one more to our liking.
>
> Hired gun? I'd like to see you document that Dulles was paid by United
> Fruit rather than obeying Presidential orders.
Since no one would be stupid to leave this paper trail I’ll admit that
it is going to be impossible for me to prove this. With this said, you
know how it works, Marsh. United Fruit doesn’t give the money to Helms
in the first place. Favors done, favors returned on down the road.
Bill Clarke
cdddraftsman
I'd be much more afraid of school teachers who play the movie 'JFK' as
though it were a real history lesson. The CIA will tell everyone what to
do when needed, don't worry about that. tl
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 27, 11:53 am, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 11/27/2009 1:44 PM, Coondog wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 27, 7:39 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Nov 27, 1:42 pm, Coondog<billcla...@live.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>>
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>>
>>>>>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>>
>>
>>>>>> On Barack Obama:
>>
>>>>>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
>>>>>> CIA.?
>>
>>>>> If this is the case then someone needs to tell Obama that he can, and
>>>>> should, fire people in the CIA that cause this fear. The last reference
>>>>> you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
>>>>> CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
>>>>> the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
>>>>> to do his dirty work?
>>
>>>>> So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
>>>>> the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>>
>>>>> Bill Clarke
>>
>>>> I accept that many fine individuals have worked for the CIA over the
>>>> years. However, the CIA (it's covert arm) has acted like an unelected
>>>> dictator at times, and involved itself in all sorts of evil schemes.
>>
>>> these evil schemes? In fact, in many cases we know that it was in
>>> fact the president that had involved them, sometimes against their
>>> will.
>>
>> How do you KNOW anything involving the President and the CIA? Prove it,
>> right here right now. You speculate.
>
> Well ,Jesus Angleton, perhaps I have a mole in place at the CIA. What
> prove it just like you can?t prove it.
>
I know a lot more about the CIA than you do and it does not come only from
reading, although obviously I have read a lot more than you have. My
father was an NSA officer who was the liaison to the CIA. He was one of
the victims of the CIA's MK/ULTRA program. He participated in many joint
projects with the CIA. His contact at CIA was John Paisley who believed he
found out who the mole really was and then was killed by the KGB when they
found out that he double-crossed them.
He told Angleton and then Angleton told Rothschildt who turned out to be
the real mole and instantly told the KGB that Paisley was working for
Angleton when he was supposed to be retired.
>>>> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
>>>> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
>>>> JFK.
>>
>>> We?ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
>>> evidence come back to see me.
>>
>> Eisenhower and Nixon were the ones who approved the Castro plots.
>> Not Kennedy.
>
> Yes, that is true. What is also true is that Kennedy ended up the goat
> for not stopping the fool operation. There is, of course, a parallel to
The CIA blackmailed Kennedy into going ahead with the Bay of Pigs invasion
by telling him that he'd have a "disposal problem" if he canceled it.
> this; Nixon and Ike also planned and approved the Castro assassinations
> and Kennedy ended up the goat for not stopping the fool operation. Some
> say Bobby escalated the attempts!
>
Just for the record, just because conservative Republicans start nightmare
operations does not mean that Liberal Democrats know how to stop them on a
dime.
>>>> Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
>>>> CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
>>>> seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
>>>> the military arm of the corporate elite.
>>
>>> Some of the clearest examples of the CIA acting as a hired gun for
>>> American industry are the little flaps in Guatemala and Iran where the
>>> U.S. removed one government and replaced it with one more to our liking.
>>
>> Hired gun? I'd like to see you document that Dulles was paid by United
>> Fruit rather than obeying Presidential orders.
>
> Since no one would be stupid to leave this paper trail I?ll admit that
> it is going to be impossible for me to prove this. With this said, you
Of course people would be stupid enough to leave a paper trail. This is
the CIA you are talking about. Follow the money.
> know how it works, Marsh. United Fruit doesn?t give the money to Helms
> in the first place. Favors done, favors returned on down the road.
>
Hmm, I didn't say Helms. He was not DCI then. I said Dulles. What they can
do is FUND the operations so that those in the CIA can pocket the taxpayer
money allocated for the operation. It's called money laundering.
> Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
>
Do I really care what you think? No.
>>> So why this blind hatred of the CIA? Are you A. Marsh in drag? He hates
>>> the CIA too you know. No reason given far as I know.
>>
>> I gave the reason a long time ago. They killed Frank Olson, and
>> threatened my father and his family.
>
> So they threatened you as well? Damn Marsh, that is pretty heavy.
> I�m sorry for your mistreatment.
>
> Bill Clarke
>
John Blubaugh
> I'd be much more afraid of school teachers who play the movie 'JFK' as
> though it were a real history lesson. The CIA will tell everyone what to
> do when needed, don't worry about that. tl
Any school teacher who did that and promoted that movie as a fact should
be fired. I am more concerned about McAdams sharing Bugs propoganda as
fact to his university students. I wonder if he will show them the new
show when it comes out? Do you think he will tell them that there are many
errors and many people do not agree with Bugs? I don't think so.
JB
Mitch
On Nov 28, 6:47 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 11/28/2009 12:56 AM, Coondog wrote:
> > On Nov 27, 8:29 am, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 11/27/2009 12:42 AM, Coondog wrote:
> >>> you gave on how terrible the CIA had been in most cases stated that the
> >>> CIA was working under orders from the president. So why take it out on
> >>> the CIA all the time? Why not take it out on the president that sent them
> >>> to do his dirty work?
>
> >> Why not take it out on the CIA which always lied and disobeys the
> >> President.
>
> > This is a false statement and you make many of them. Your use of
> > “always” and “all” doom many of your messages to the dust bin.
>
> Do I really care what you think? No.
Which explains why you keep replying to his posts, I take it?
jas
Oh I wouldn't be too concerned. I'm sure that, being at the university
level, his students are quite capable of understanding the truth of what
happened after studying both sides of the coin, i.e., no evidence of a
conspiracy, as "Bugs" has so thoroughly explored.
Any work such as the magnitude of Bugliosi's book, being 1600 plus pages
in length, is going to have errors, just like the massive investigation of
the Warren Commission did. This doesn't mean the conclusions are in error.
The only "errors" I can see re the JFK assassination and disinformation
spin meisters such as yourself is your error in judgment in touting a
false conspiracy.
John Blubaugh
I do not have the faith in young college students that you do. If you
are a professor and you lie to them they will tend to believe what
they are being taught. Do you really believe they get a good view of
both sides of the issue? I do not. I am no spin meister, I do not
offer theories but I do not believe that Oswald acted alone as do 75%
of all Americans. Our government lies to us or have they suddenly
found WMDs or terrorists bases in Iraq? If the truth had been told to
begin with perhaps all of this doubt would not exist. If the
government would open all of the files they have now perhaps all of
the questions would answered. But, I guess they would have already
released them if that were the case.
JB
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 26, 7:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>>
>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>>
>>
>> On Barack Obama:
>>
>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
>> CIA.�
>
> I'd be much more afraid of school teachers who play the movie 'JFK' as
> though it were a real history lesson. The CIA will tell everyone what to
> do when needed, don't worry about that. tl
>
>
I don't think there are any who do. Stone made it clear that he was
presenting a counter myth.
Thalia
Wow! I didn't see you in my classroom when I played the movie "JFK" so
I am confused as to how you think you know what I told my students
about the film. Next time you visit, make sure you say hello!
Coondog
Your father’s knowledge and experience of the CIA is so noted. Yours
is still in question.
> >>>> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
> >>>> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
> >>>> JFK.
>
> >>> We?ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
> >>> evidence come back to see me.
>
> >> Eisenhower and Nixon were the ones who approved the Castro plots.
> >> Not Kennedy.
>
> > Yes, that is true. What is also true is that Kennedy ended up the goat
> > for not stopping the fool operation. There is, of course, a parallel to
>
> The CIA blackmailed Kennedy into going ahead with the Bay of Pigs invasion
> by telling him that he'd have a "disposal problem" if he canceled it.
Gee, it was hardly a case of “blackmail”! What to do with those
troops, who were becoming restless in the camps, was indeed an actual
problem and the CIA would have been negligent if they hadn’t warned
JFK. Since you “hate” the CIA you take their correct actions here and
make it“blackmail”! Golly!
> > this; Nixon and Ike also planned and approved the Castro assassinations
> > and Kennedy ended up the goat for not stopping the fool operation. Some
> > say Bobby escalated the attempts!
>
> Just for the record, just because conservative Republicans start nightmare
> operations does not mean that Liberal Democrats know how to stop them on a
> dime.
Maybe so, maybe not. The liberals certainly know how to start these
little deals on their own anyway. The Diem fiasco comes to mind.
Bill Clarke
> >>>> Many, many people have grave concerns about the operations of the
> >>>> CIA, and the lack of oversight that has been carried out on them. They
> >>>> seem accountable to no-one. The covert arm went "rogue" and acted like
> >>>> the military arm of the corporate elite.
>
> >>> Some of the clearest examples of the CIA acting as a hired gun for
> >>> American industry are the little flaps in Guatemala and Iran where the
> >>> U.S. removed one government and replaced it with one more to our liking.
>
> >> Hired gun? I'd like to see you document that Dulles was paid by United
> >> Fruit rather than obeying Presidential orders.
>
> > Since no one would be stupid to leave this paper trail I?ll admit that
> > it is going to be impossible for me to prove this. With this said, you
>
> Of course people would be stupid enough to leave a paper trail. This is
> the CIA you are talking about. Follow the money.
>
> > know how it works, Marsh. United Fruit doesn?t give the money to Helms
> > in the first place. Favors done, favors returned on down the road.
>
> Hmm, I didn't say Helms. He was not DCI then. I said Dulles. What they can
> do is FUND the operations so that those in the CIA can pocket the taxpayer
> money allocated for the operation. It's called money laundering.
>
>
>
> > Bill Clarke- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Anthony Marsh
> is still in question.
>
No. Do I really have to spell it out for you? I guess so since you don't
understand the obvious. You claim that all my knowledge about the CIA
comes from ONLY reading books. Then how would I know Ramsey Clark's code
name when it has never been published in a book? I know because I got that
information from my father. I had just been reading a book about Angleton
and it dealt with his search for the mole. So, I asked my father if he
knew Angleton and if he thought that Angelton was just crazy or whether
there ever was really a mole. That is when he told me the background story
that there really was a mole and that John Paisley had found out who it
was.
>>>>>> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
>>>>>> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
>>>>>> JFK.
>>
>>>>> We?ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
>>>>> evidence come back to see me.
>>
>>>> Eisenhower and Nixon were the ones who approved the Castro plots.
>>>> Not Kennedy.
>>
>>> Yes, that is true. What is also true is that Kennedy ended up the goat
>>> for not stopping the fool operation. There is, of course, a parallel to
>>
>> The CIA blackmailed Kennedy into going ahead with the Bay of Pigs invasion
>> by telling him that he'd have a "disposal problem" if he canceled it.
>
> Gee, it was hardly a case of ?blackmail?! What to do with those
> troops, who were becoming restless in the camps, was indeed an actual
> problem and the CIA would have been negligent if they hadn?t warned
> JFK. Since you ?hate? the CIA you take their correct actions here and
> make it?blackmail?! Golly!
>
So, the correct action for the CIA to take is to blackmail the President?
How about following orders. Why did JFK have to send US Marshals in to
close the Exile training camps?
>>> this; Nixon and Ike also planned and approved the Castro assassinations
>>> and Kennedy ended up the goat for not stopping the fool operation. Some
>>> say Bobby escalated the attempts!
>>
>> Just for the record, just because conservative Republicans start nightmare
>> operations does not mean that Liberal Democrats know how to stop them on a
>> dime.
>
> Maybe so, maybe not. The liberals certainly know how to start these
> little deals on their own anyway. The Diem fiasco comes to mind.
JFK authorized the coup, not the assassination. He later regretted it.
Anthony Marsh
48 Hours did an interesting experiment. They staged a fake robbery in a
college classroom. The professor was in on the staging and played the role
of inserting false information. When they discussed what had happened the
Professor noted that the suspect wore a goatee although he KNEW the guy
was clean shaven. They wanted to see how many students would
subconsciously pick up on that information. And indeed when the students
were asked to describe the man they saw many of them said he wore a
goatee.
Coondog
Boy howdy, thanks for the thrilling war story, Anthony. It must have been
hell sitting there in the safety of your own home with your dad while the
dastardly CIA moved into their attack position. I bet you have trouble
sleeping too.
> >>>>>> Attempting to kill Castro was one (and any presidents who greenlight
> >>>>>> such opeartions also get the blame) Another scheme was the murder of
> >>>>>> JFK.
>
> >>>>> We?ll just agree to disagree here and move on. You get some credible
> >>>>> evidence come back to see me.
>
> >>>> Eisenhower and Nixon were the ones who approved the Castro plots.
> >>>> Not Kennedy.
>
> >>> Yes, that is true. What is also true is that Kennedy ended up the goat
> >>> for not stopping the fool operation. There is, of course, a parallel to
>
> >> The CIA blackmailed Kennedy into going ahead with the Bay of Pigs invasion
> >> by telling him that he'd have a "disposal problem" if he canceled it.
>
> > Gee, it was hardly a case of ?blackmail?! What to do with those
> > troops, who were becoming restless in the camps, was indeed an actual
> > problem and the CIA would have been negligent if they hadn?t warned
> > JFK. Since you ?hate? the CIA you take their correct actions here and
> > make it?blackmail?! Golly!
>
> So, the correct action for the CIA to take is to blackmail the President?
> How about following orders. Why did JFK have to send US Marshals in to
> close the Exile training camps?
The correct action was for the CIA to inform the president of this
“disposable” problem. They did this. Only in your world could you
make a case for “blackmail” here. Only in your world.
Anthony Marsh
> make a case for ?blackmail? here. Only in your world.
>
The point is that it was a deliberate lie. There was no real disposal
problem. If the exiles really wanted to invade Cuba they could have done
so on their own without any US support. Of course their chances would then
have been zero, but heck it's better than sitting around doing nothing. In
fact their CIA handlers told them to do exactly that. If the President
canceled the invasion, lock them up and go ahead with the invasion on
their own.
cdddraftsman
Well he'd be a minority . From what I know about college prof.'s ,
they're 95% left-wing , anti-USG , conspiracy prone and turn out
students best ready to file for immediate emergency unemployment
programs . All in all I think he's done a excellent job . I can tell
by the amount of hatred thrown his way on other groups . I don't see
many conclusive debunkings of material presented on his web site . His
proof is redundent , multi-tiered , and interlocking . When it isn't
and suggests a alternate conspiracy conclusion , the alternate usually
falls by it's own weight due to unsurmountable flaws in logic or some
other well known CT deficientcys in investigative prowess .
tl
cdddraftsman
False conclusion . Opening files does not prevent a plethora of non-
sense by conspiracy cult members or from harrassing individuals or
stop them from spinning yarns , it only encourages them .
tl
cdddraftsman
and
How do you know I wasn't in your classroom ?
At the risk of you thinking me perhaps a little 'nutty' I'm going to
reveil the 'Company's' newest program :
'School Kid Midgets for Infiltration'
It's obvious to me now that our CIA program has been less successful
than we at first thought .
Thanks for the tip . I owe you one .
tl
cdddraftsman
continuously :
JFK's first priority as President was the Assassination of Prime
Minister Lumumba of the Congo, President Trujillo of the Dominican
Republic
and
Premier Diem of South Vietnam :
11/1/63
JFK instigated a plot to overthrow & kill South Vietnam's Premiere
Diem. The fundamental planning document was the 8/30/63, memo to Sec.
of State Dean Rusk from Roger Hilsman, Assistant Sec. State for Far
Eastern Affairs.
It said among other things, "We should encourage the coup group to
destroy the palace if necessary to gain victory..." and in point 10 it
ordered the death of Diem.
end .....
I have a new JFK conspiracy theory !
JFK like LBJ was going to pour 500,000 troops into VN .
All troops were to be ordered to walk in backwards , to make everyone
think they were leaving .
tl
cdddraftsman
>
> Boy howdy, thanks for the thrilling war story, Anthony. It must have been
> hell sitting there in the safety of your own home with your dad while the
> dastardly CIA moved into their attack position. I bet you have trouble
> sleeping too.
>
>
Don't forget while they sweated it out there were hardships . Their
"lunch of cold vichyssoise, stuffed brandied squab with wild rice, a
vegetable dish of peas and onions, and mixed green salad w/Italian
dressing, all finished off by cofee and chocolate tarts" plentiful in
their flak jackets" is a hell of a way to digest information :-)
tl
cdddraftsman
>
> The point is that it was a deliberate lie. There was no real disposal
> problem. If the exiles really wanted to invade Cuba they could have done
> so on their own without any US support. Of course their chances would then
> have been zero, but heck it's better than sitting around doing nothing. In
> fact their CIA handlers told them to do exactly that. If the President
> canceled the invasion, lock them up and go ahead with the invasion on
> their own.
>
>
JFK could of done worse . He could of put those troops in 'The Peace
Corps' which was basically paid voluntarism for unskilled JFK do-
gooders or was it JFK's idea of peacefull invasions of foriegn
countrys ? Whatever ..... It doesn't matter .
Bay of Pigs, Cuba, April 15, 1961
JFK interfered with the military operation both in planning and
execution to make it worse ; did not keep commitments he had made for
airstrikes ; made public statements that the US would not support
insurrection in Cuba which discouraged resistance to Castro, blamed
others for its failure , lied to the public about it and weakened the
original plan to make it virtually certain to fail
(CIA planners Esterline & Hawkins threatened to resign over the
changes).
JFK was directly told by Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Lemnitzer that
the invasion "would have very little chance of success." The Joint
Chiefs in a memorandum of January 27, 1961 wrote "The current
Political-Para-Military Plan does not assure the accomplishment of the
above objective nor has there been detailed follow-up planning to
exploit that plan if it succeeds or for any direct action that might
be required if the plan is found to be inadequate."
JFK as CIC blundered , instead of calling for a force comparison
between US v BoP Invaders he went ahead with the plan, according to
Arthur Schlesinger, to impress Eisenhower and Kruschev. A quick
comparison of what it would of took US troops v Cuban's would of told
him immediately , even with massive public support , the invasion
force was doomed .
RFK led the cover-up to protect the president with a shield of lies
that he had received bad advice and really didn't know much about it.
Esterline says now "What I find so unacceptable is how cavalier they
were in taking nearly 2,000 people and putting them out as animal
bait."
4 Americans and 114 CIA-trained Cubans were killed ,
1,189 were captured and $52 Million in aid went to Castro and Cuba , a
man and a country bent our our destruction , to get back the
hostages .
I would think they would of been grateful to JFK for getting them back
instead of CT construct # 34,876 (KILL KENNEDY ! WE NEED ANOTHER BOOK
CONTRACT ASAP)
THE NEW TERRORIST ON THE BLOCK ?
JFK Ordered the CIA (100 million dollar Operation Mongoose) to
sabotage the Cuban economy and assassinate Fidel Castro, showing an
irresponsibility and lack of judgment bordering on dereliction. The
CIA offered a 150,000 dollar open contract on Castro. Samuel Halpern,
the CIA executive in charge of Task Force W (sole purpose :
assassinate Castro) wrote that they obsessed about wanting Castro dead
"for personal reasons -
The family name was besmirched by the 'Bay of Pigs'."
Mark my words , while Castro lives the 'Bay of Pigs' will never be
avenged !
That's Offi'cia'l !
end ....
tl ...
..
.
John Blubaugh
> On Nov 28, 4:50 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > I'd be much more afraid of school teachers who play the movie 'JFK' as
> > > though it were a real history lesson. The CIA will tell everyone what to
> > > do when needed, don't worry about that. tl
>
> > Any school teacher who did that and promoted that movie as a fact should
> > be fired. I am more concerned about McAdams sharing Bugs propoganda as
> > fact to his university students. I wonder if he will show them the new
> > show when it comes out? Do you think he will tell them that there are many
> > errors and many people do not agree with Bugs? I don't think so.
>
> > JB
>
> Well he'd be a minority . From what I know about college prof.'s ,
> they're 95% left-wing , anti-USG , conspiracy prone and turn out
> students best ready to file for immediate emergency unemployment
> programs . All in all I think he's done a excellent job . I can tell
> by the amount of hatred thrown his way on other groups . I don't see
> many conclusive debunkings of material presented on his web site . His
> and suggests a alternate conspiracy conclusion, the alternate usually
> falls by it's own weight due to unsurmountable flaws in logic or some
> other well known CT deficientcys in investigative prowess .
>
> tl
Well, if your description of the college professors is correct then I
think CT rhought must be the way to go. That is a lot of brain power that
apparently agrees.
JB
74030...@compuserve.com
> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>
> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>
>
> On Barack Obama:
>
> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
> CIA.”
This is bullshit. McGovern has been saying wild things. Do a google
swarch on him. He shows up as an anti-Semite. At least one source
discredits him. The book he reviews is junk. Soon I will cover the
LIES in the book, starting with the alleged firing of Dulles and
Cabell
s/f Dolan
Anthony Marsh
> On Dec 1, 9:29 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> The point is that it was a deliberate lie. There was no real disposal
>> problem. If the exiles really wanted to invade Cuba they could have done
>> so on their own without any US support. Of course their chances would then
>> have been zero, but heck it's better than sitting around doing nothing. In
>> fact their CIA handlers told them to do exactly that. If the President
>> canceled the invasion, lock them up and go ahead with the invasion on
>> their own.
>>
>>
> There seems to be a bad connectivity here :
>
> JFK could of done worse . He could of put those troops in 'The Peace
> Corps' which was basically paid voluntarism for unskilled JFK do-
> gooders or was it JFK's idea of peacefull invasions of foriegn
> countrys ? Whatever ..... It doesn't matter .
>
> Bay of Pigs, Cuba, April 15, 1961
>
> JFK interfered with the military operation both in planning and
That is true. He changed the landing area trying to make it a quiter
operation.
> execution to make it worse ; did not keep commitments he had made for
> airstrikes ; made public statements that the US would not support
That is not true. He changed the number of planes and strikes to make it
more plausibly deniable. But he did authorize the second airstrike,
contrary to CIA lies.
> insurrection in Cuba which discouraged resistance to Castro, blamed
That is not the reason why there was no insurrection in Cuba. First, the
CIA lied about the people rising up against Castro. And second Castro
knew every detail about the invasion and rounded up hundreds of
thousands of potential resistors.
> others for its failure , lied to the public about it and weakened the
> original plan to make it virtually certain to fail
>
> (CIA planners Esterline& Hawkins threatened to resign over the
> changes).
>
Yes, they had a valid point. But like good little stooges they went
through with it.
> JFK was directly told by Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Lemnitzer that
> the invasion "would have very little chance of success." The Joint
Yes, a few people realized it would not work. But by then the US was
firmly committed to it.
> Chiefs in a memorandum of January 27, 1961 wrote "The current
> Political-Para-Military Plan does not assure the accomplishment of the
> above objective nor has there been detailed follow-up planning to
> exploit that plan if it succeeds or for any direct action that might
> be required if the plan is found to be inadequate."
>
Yes, they though it needed US military involvement and were sure that
Kennedy would acquiesce to sending in the Marines if it failed.
> JFK as CIC blundered , instead of calling for a force comparison
> between US v BoP Invaders he went ahead with the plan, according to
Excuse me? You said US invaders. The plan forbade US invaders.
> Arthur Schlesinger, to impress Eisenhower and Kruschev. A quick
> comparison of what it would of took US troops v Cuban's would of told
> him immediately , even with massive public support , the invasion
> force was doomed .
>
The US had 50,000 Marines offshort waiting to go in.
> RFK led the cover-up to protect the president with a shield of lies
> that he had received bad advice and really didn't know much about it.
>
> Esterline says now "What I find so unacceptable is how cavalier they
> were in taking nearly 2,000 people and putting them out as animal
> bait."
>
Wow, as if the US never has done anything like that. A tad naive for a
military man.
> 4 Americans and 114 CIA-trained Cubans were killed ,
>
> 1,189 were captured and $52 Million in aid went to Castro and Cuba , a
> man and a country bent our our destruction , to get back the
> hostages .
>
Cuba was never bent on our destruction. That is propaganda.
> I would think they would of been grateful to JFK for getting them back
> instead of CT construct # 34,876 (KILL KENNEDY ! WE NEED ANOTHER BOOK
> CONTRACT ASAP)
>
> THE NEW TERRORIST ON THE BLOCK ?
>
> JFK Ordered the CIA (100 million dollar Operation Mongoose) to
> sabotage the Cuban economy and assassinate Fidel Castro, showing an
> irresponsibility and lack of judgment bordering on dereliction. The
The CIA is always involved in sabotage and subversion. That is their
raison d'etre.
> CIA offered a 150,000 dollar open contract on Castro. Samuel Halpern,
> the CIA executive in charge of Task Force W (sole purpose :
> assassinate Castro) wrote that they obsessed about wanting Castro dead
> "for personal reasons -
>
Silly, the Castro plots started before Kennedy was elected.
Anthony Marsh
Nonsense. You are talking about Eisenhower, not Kennedy.
> and
>
> Premier Diem of South Vietnam :
>
> 11/1/63
>
> JFK instigated a plot to overthrow& kill South Vietnam's Premiere
> Diem. The fundamental planning document was the 8/30/63, memo to Sec.
> of State Dean Rusk from Roger Hilsman, Assistant Sec. State for Far
> Eastern Affairs.
>
> It said among other things, "We should encourage the coup group to
> destroy the palace if necessary to gain victory..." and in point 10 it
> ordered the death of Diem.
>
Are you pretending to quote something? No source given. You are just
making up crap again. The plan was safe haven in the US embassy and then
exile in Paris.
Anthony Marsh
> On Nov 26, 10:40 am, Thalia<thaliac...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> People do speak out - it's just unusual for anyone to listen
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0Au_OqNCYk
>>
>> On the book "JFK and the Unspeakable":
>>
>>
>> On Barack Obama:
>>
>> "Let me leave you with this thought, and that is that I think Panetta
>> CIA.�
>
> This is bullshit. McGovern has been saying wild things. Do a google
> swarch on him. He shows up as an anti-Semite. At least one source
> discredits him. The book he reviews is junk. Soon I will cover the
> LIES in the book, starting with the alleged firing of Dulles and
> Cabell
> s/f Dolan
>
Alleged? What planet do you come from? CIA world?
Alleged? YOU of all people should know that a forced resignation is
exactly the same thing as being fired.