Oswald was not a failure
leo sgouros
actually had friends, but gave it up to go Russia, alone. a20 year old,
and managed to keep the door open to come back. In Russia, HE GETS A
LIFE. Girls, a good job, a decent apartment, and eventually a family.
Then he gives THAT up to come back to America. He comes back with his
family. His diary was a very valuable document for CIA REALITIES. How
they got it, well...Then he takes a nove dive, apparently, and ends with
the death of the Prez and himself. I say he was a SUCCESS before he came
back. Leo
--
"The only way to abolish war is to make peace heroic"-
John Dewey
Clark Wilkins
Agreed. Even if one chooses not to consider him a success it is hard to
call him a "failure".
.Clark
Russell Burr
It's really all relative...but I don't agree with the assessment that
he was a success before he arrived stateside in 1962. Let's take a look
at the record for a minute.
While in the Marines:
WCR page 386:
His difficulty in relating to other people and his general
dissatisfaction with the world around him continued while he was in the
Marine Corps. Kerry Thornley, a marine associate, who, shortly after
Oswald's defection, wrote an as yet unpublished novel based in
considerable part on 0swald's life, testified that "definitely the
Marine Corps was not what he had expected it to be when he joined." He
said that Oswald "seemed to guard against developing real close
friendships." Daniel Powers, another marine who was stationed with
Oswald for part of his marine career, testified that Oswald seemed
"always [to be] striving for a relationship, but whenever he did ...
his general personality would alienate the group against him." Other
marines also testified that Oswald had few friends and kept very much
to himself.
While there is nothing in Oswald's military records to indicate that he
was mentally unstable or otherwise psychologically unfit for duty in
the Marine Corps, he did not adjust well to conditions which he found
in that service. He did not rise above the rank of private first class,
even though he had passed a qualifying examination for the rank of
corporal. His Marine career was not helped by his attitude that he was
a man of great ability and intelligence and that many of his superiors
in the Marine Corps were not sufficiently competent to give him orders.
While Oswald did not seem to object to authority in the abstract, he
did think that he should be the one to exercise it. John E.
Donovan, one of his former officers, testified that Oswald thought
"that authority, particularly the Marine Corps, ought to be able to
recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college
degree, and put them in positions of prominence"
Oswald manifested this feeling about authority by baiting his officers.
He led them into discussions of foreign affairs about which they often
knew less than he did, since he had apparently devoted considerable
time to a study of such matters. When the officers were unable to
discuss foreign affairs satisfactorily with him, Oswald regarded them
as unfit to exercise command over him. Nelson Delgado, one of Oswald's
fellow Marines, testified that Oswald tried to "cut up anybody
that was high ranking" in those arguments "and make himself come out
top dog.". Oswald probably engaged his superiors in arguments on
subject that he had studied in an attempt to attract attention to
himself and to support his exaggerated idea of his own abilities.
Thornley also testified that he thought that Oswald's extreme personal
sloppiness in the Marine Corps "fitted into a general personality
pattern of his: to do whatever was not wanted of him, a recalcitrant
trend in his personality." Oswald "seemed to be a person who would go
out of his way to get into trouble" and then used the "special
treatment" he received as an example of the way in which he was being
picked on and "as a means of getting or attempting to get sympathy." In
Thornley's view, Oswald labored under a persecution complex which he
strove to maintain and '"felt the Marine Corps kept a pretty close
watch on him because of his 'subversive' activities." Thornley added:
"I think it was kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being
picked on. It wasn't anything extreme. I wouldn't go as far as to call
it, call him a paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that
direction, I think."
SNIPPING......
While in Japan, Oswald's new found apparent self confidence and
pugnaciousness led to an incident in which he spilled a drink on one of
his sergeants and abusively challenged him to fight. At the
court-martial hearing which followed, Oswald admitted that he had been
rather drunk when the incident occurred. He testified that he had felt
the sergeant had a grudge against him and that he had unsuccessfully
sought a transfer from the sergeant's unit. He said that he had simply
wanted to discuss the question with the sergeant and the drink had been
spilled accidentally. The hearing officer agreed with the latter claim
but found Oswald guilty of wrongfully using provoking words and
sentenced him to 28 days, canceling the suspension of a 20-day sentence
that Oswald had received in an earlier court-martial for possessing an
unauthorized pistol with which he had accidentally shot himself.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A real success, huh?
In the Soviet Union he did make friends but was totally unmotivated
when it came to participating in traditional Soviet affairs...his
claims to be a Marxist were superficial at best...rather than attend
May Day activities he avoids them by sleeping in that day. His job
performance was poor at best..like most things he would involve himself
in, he started well but would gradually become unmotivated and
undisiplined. His idealistic views of the Soviet Union quickly are
replaced with by the realities of Soviet life and as a result decides
to chuck it all and go home to the US. You call this experience a
success? Even Oswald didn't see it as a success. He failed in the
Marines and he failed in his attempts at being a Soviet citizin. Even
the KGB saw nothing of propaganda value in his efforts to assimilate to
Soviet life.
His marriage was marked by a great deal of verbal arguements....and
that was while he was still in the Soviet Union. It only got worse when
he came home.
And he didn't *get* a job or an apartment...he was *given* a job and an
apartment.
And if he hadn't tried to kill himself he would have been sent packing
within weeks of arriving in the USSR.
I don't see how you can call this guy a success in any terms.
Russ
Amethyst
>
> leo sgouros <lsgo...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> >
> >I dont think Oswald should be called a failure. He became Marine and
> >actually had friends, but gave it up to go Russia, alone. a20 year old,
> >and managed to keep the door open to come back. In Russia, HE GETS A
> >LIFE. Girls, a good job, a decent apartment, and eventually a family.
> >Then he gives THAT up to come back to America. He comes back with his
> >family. His diary was a very valuable document for CIA REALITIES. How
> >they got it, well...Then he takes a nove dive, apparently, and ends
> with
> >the death of the Prez and himself. I say he was a SUCCESS before he
> came
> >back. Leo
> >
> >--
> >"The only way to abolish war is to make peace heroic"-
> >John Dewey
> >
>
> Agreed. Even if one chooses not to consider him a success it is hard to
> call him a "failure".
>
> .Clark
Clark,
Then why was Oswald so dissatisfied?
Didn't he feel that he was a great man whose greatness was not
recognized by those around him? Didn't he say that in Cuba they'd
appreciate his special abilities and he'd be made a prime minister?
Isn't that acknowledgement that he had failed - at least in the US and
USSR?
Just imagine his situation in '63. He's been turned down for travel to
Cuba - his last hope. His wife has left him; he can't tempt her back.
She lives with a woman who Lee has to ask permission from to come out
and visit.
He works in a dingy building with the likes of out-to-lunch Jack
Dougherty and Charles Givens, who calls him 'boy'.
He lives in a single room and subsists on bananas and anything he can
get cheap that doesn't need cooking.
He has to ask a 19-yr-old for a ride home! Of course he cant drive and
there's not much prospect of him owning a car.
Put yourself in that position and tell me if you would have considered
yourself a success if you were he.
Jerry
Jerry Organ
> I dont think Oswald should be called a failure.
Oswald did accomplish something unique -- he remains the LAST ASSASSIN of
an American President.
> He became Marine
Where he learned the only skill he would ever apply -- marksmanship.
> and actually had friends, but gave it up to go Russia, alone. a20 year old,
> and managed to keep the door open to come back.
Whaaat? He wanted to come back because he was a misfit who hated the
Soviet system. When he first landed in Moscow, he was so disillusioned by
the Soviet bureaucracy that he attempted to commit suicide.
> In Russia, HE GETS A LIFE.
The job was given to him -- he didn't apply for it.
> Girls, a good job, a decent apartment, and eventually a family.
The job and apartment was the Soviets' way of keeping defectors happy.
[snip]
> I say he was a SUCCESS before he came back.
Oswald got "SUCCESS" only by challenging the system or officials. He hated
authority -- that's why he ended up a Marine with a dishonable discharge
working at a menial job in a Dallas West End warehouse, with his family
being cared for through the kindness of strangers. The "SUCCESS STORY"
would have abandoned Marina and his own kids if he would have gotten into
Cuba a month before.
Jerry Organ
Michael Russ
>
> Oswald was not a failure
>
> From: leo sgouros <lsgo...@tampabay.rr.com>
> I dont think Oswald should be called a failure. He became Marine and
> actually had friends,
His marine experience was a miserable failure. The other Marines made fun
of him and called him Ozzie Rabbit. He was court-martialed twice and left
the marines as a private first class.
> but gave it up to go Russia, alone.
He went to Russia in part because he was such a failure in the marines.
> a20 year old,
> and managed to keep the door open to come back.
I think he managed to come back in spite of himself, he wanted to renounce
his american citizenship, and he wasn't allowed too. If he had been
succcesfull in that endeavor, he wouldn't have been allowed back in the
U.S.
> In Russia, HE GETS A
> LIFE. Girls, a good job, a decent apartment, and eventually a family.
It was not a good job in LHO's opinion, and even his family was a failure.
He settled for Marina because the woman he really loved turned him down.
And even though I do believe he truly loved his daughter, He always wanted
a son.
> Then he gives THAT up to come back to America.
So, if he was so successfull in the USSR why did he want to come back to
the USA.
>He comes back with his
> family. His diary was a very valuable document for CIA REALITIES. How
> they got it, well...
I don't understand, could you please clarify this.
Mike
leo sgouros
Russell Burr wrote:
Hello Russ
I cant argue with the way you feel about him. He had problems and of course
he was resentful of authority. But it seems that he was actually getting his
act together.He found out Russia was not what he thought it would be, and
went back to slouching on the job and arguing and fighting with his wife. I
think if he was a true Marxist , his disappointment manifested itself in his
job and home life. Russia was no place to build another revolution as he saw
it, and he learned that the communist system there was a system of a few
haves and a few have nots. Is it surprising that he was dismayed with the
bigotry and virulant right wing atmosphere he found himself in when he
returned? He seemed to be truly against the racism he saw against the
minorities.I dont buy what was said that he sat with the blck folks at court
just to piss off the Cubans.His political ideology probably had done alot of
growing up un Russia and when he comes back he sees America through different
eyes.So maybe Cuba can be a place to start out fresh, a struggling
revolutionary state that he could teach some things about real Communism to.
Of course he was a malcontent. He had powerful convictions, though, and he
seems to have acted on them in strange ways. All I am really saying here is
that the WC found him guilty and painted an unfair picture of the guy.Their
"mommas-boy" evaluation of him was natural He was hated, and rightly so, for
he was the Presidents assassin{you know by now I dont think he Killed Kennedy
but DID kill Tippit}I take into account that I could be wrong. No problem. Can
any of you L.N ers look at the other side of the coin? And if he didnt we will
have come to discover that we not onlyconvicted an innocent man but destroyed
any humanity he might have had. I sound like a bleeding liberal but what if
you guys are wrong? Leo