For Those Who Care
Brokedad
Thomas H. Purvis says:
One last time for those who actually care!
1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
was the shooter.
4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
It is in fact the second shot fired.
6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
his USMC Rangefire Record.
7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
(slope distance) from the window to the target.
8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.
10. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the
assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were
fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window
(first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this "rushed"
shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and
everyone.
11. There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm
12. With the available evidence, which included a first generation
copy of the Z-film, as well as availability of the witness
testimonies, the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily resolved
the shooting sequence of the shots fired.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm
13. There is absolutely nothing which is complicated in regards to the
shooting sequence which occurred in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.
What is complicated is the extent to which certain members of the WC
went to in order to make an entire shot "disappear", and thereafter
blame the wounds which the bullet created on CE399/aka the "Magic
Bullet".
14. CE399 is not "Magic".
15. In event that one desires to see the TRUE "Magic Bullet", then
might I recommend that they search for the one which disappeared.
There is no Magic!
however:
"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear"
Tom
mark foster
There may be no magic, but there is Truth. Yes, three shots were
fired from the sixth floor by Oswald....but the first shot was at
approximately Z160. It missed the limousine completely.
Z313 was the LAST shot in the sequence. Sorry, but facts is facts.
John Canal
says...
>
>
>
>Thomas H. Purvis says:
>
>One last time for those who actually care!
>
>1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
>
>2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
>on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
>
>3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
>was the shooter.
>
>4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
>
>5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
>It is in fact the second shot fired.
>
>6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
>his USMC Rangefire Record.
>
>7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
>(slope distance) from the window to the target.
>
>8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
>those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
>shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
>
>9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
>the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
>of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.
Are you positing that one bullet hit him near the EOP and another in the
cowlick? If so, there's no solid evidence for a cowlick entry. Indeed, if
a shot did hit him, there where is the cluster or short trail of bone
fragments that would have (because of their light weight) stayed close to
that high entry? Note that those bone fragments would have been from the
beveled out inner table of the skull around that entry.
Also the autopsy docs reported no inshoot type damage to that part of the
brain.
And where is all the lead for a shot entering in the cowlick? Would the
answer be a dog-ate-my-homework type of answer, e.g. the lead deflected
into DP somewhere, without causing any further noticable damage or injury?
Are you saying (like Marsh says) that HB&F were so incompetent they missed
seeing another entry and exit...or are you saying they were in on a
cover-up? If the later, there were a lot of individuals who witnesed the
autopsy, e.g. Siebert & O'Neill....were they in on the cover-up as well?
And he slumped into Jackie's arms after the 312-313 shot, making anther
shot to the head that much more difficult, especially since you say that
last shot was even further away.
John Canal
Anthony Marsh
>
> Thomas H. Purvis says:
>
> One last time for those who actually care!
>
> 1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
>
> 2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
> on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
>
> 3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
> was the shooter.
>
> 4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
>
> 5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
> It is in fact the second shot fired.
>
You try to pretend to be a WC defender and then you invent a wacky
theory like that.
> 6. LHO was a relatively good shooter, as is clearly demonstrated by
> his USMC Rangefire Record.
>
> 7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
> (slope distance) from the window to the target.
>
> 8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
> those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
> shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
>
Apples and oranges, comparing a semi-automatic to a bolt action rifle.
> 9. The third/last/final shot fired in the shooting sequence, impacted
> the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
> of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.
>
Nonsense.
> 10. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts of the
> assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were
> fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window
> (first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this "rushed"
> shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and
> everyone.
>
That was only one possible scenario of three.
> 11. There was no "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"!
>
Then tell us what each shot hit when. You keep ducking that question
because you know any answer will show how wacky your theory is.
burgundy
Re: # 11 : What shot hit the curb that struck James Tague?
claviger
The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
exclaim "My God! I've been hit!" The SS agents in the presidential
limousine testified they plainly heard JFK's familiar voice blurt out
these words.
2) The second shot struck the President in the upper back and exited his
throat, causing such severe damage he was no longer able to speak.
3) The third shot struck the President in the upper part at the back of
his skull and the shock wave of the fragmenting bullet blew out the top of
his head. A fragmenting bullet from a rifle would act as a virtual shotgun
blast exiting the skull.
This sequence explains why Governor Connelly always insisted he was hit by
a different bullet than the first one to strike the President. This
perception would be correct since the President was the only passenger hit
by fragments from the ricochet off the curb. The second shot pierced both
the President and Governor Connelly. A ballistics laboratory in Australia
proved beyond any reasonable doubt the ammunition used in Oswlad's rifle
was capable of penetrating the torso of both JFK and JBC.
Claviger
Martin Shackelford
Martin
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192076171....@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> Tom,
>
> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
>
> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!" The SS agents in the presidential
> limousine testified they plainly heard JFK's familiar voice blurt out
> these words.
>
Nonsense. JFK said nothing. He had a perforated trachea.
Cite and quote the plural SS agents who testified that they heard him
say those words. Plural.
> 2) The second shot struck the President in the upper back and exited his
> throat, causing such severe damage he was no longer able to speak.
>
> 3) The third shot struck the President in the upper part at the back of
> his skull and the shock wave of the fragmenting bullet blew out the top of
> his head. A fragmenting bullet from a rifle would act as a virtual shotgun
> blast exiting the skull.
>
> This sequence explains why Governor Connelly always insisted he was hit by
> a different bullet than the first one to strike the President. This
> perception would be correct since the President was the only passenger hit
> by fragments from the ricochet off the curb. The second shot pierced both
> the President and Governor Connelly. A ballistics laboratory in Australia
> proved beyond any reasonable doubt the ammunition used in Oswlad's rifle
> was capable of penetrating the torso of both JFK and JBC.
>
No, please try to follow. Connally not only said that he was hit by the
second shot, he also said that he was not hit by the same bullet which
hit the President. He always rejected the SBT.
> Claviger
Brokedad
"There may be no magic, but there is Truth. Yes, three shots were fired
from the sixth floor by Oswald....but the first shot was at approximately
Z160. It missed the limousine completely"
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm
Perhaps one should speak with the individual who actually witnessed the
first shot strike JFK in the upper back, exactly where the wound was found
when the autopsy of JFK was full into progress, and which no one was aware
of until this time.
Aftewards, perhaps one should check into the witness testiimony of all of
those who claimed that JFK was observed reacting to being hit by the first
shot.
And, one just may want to dig into the factual evidence to determine
exactly how it was that Time/Life, with the original Zapruder film in
their possession, on 11/26/63, determined that the first shot was fired
just as JFK began to go behind the Stemmons Road Sign.
And, the US Secret Service, on 12/2, 3/ & 4th, during their survey work
and re-enactment, determined that JFK was hit just as he went behind this
road sign, which location was also confirmed by the FBI on 2/7/64 during
their survey work and assassination re-enactment
"Z313 was the LAST shot in the sequence. Sorry, but facts is facts"
SS Agent Glenn Bennet says "second shot"!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm
Emmet Hudson says "second shot"!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm
Charles Brehm says "second shot"!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brehm.htm
along with a whole lot of others.
Were you there????
If not, and since the US Secret Service as well as the FBI clearly
determined that Z313 was the second shot impact location, excuse me, but I
will stick with their judgement.
Especially since they were in possession of a first generation copy of the
Z-film as well as having access to the witness statements.
Not to mention that Emmet Hudson, James Altgens, Malcom Summers, and
others, have clearly stated the approximate location of the Presidential
Limo at the time of the third/last/final shot.
And of course, one can add into that scenario the fact that James Altgens
clearly testified that it was the LAST shot fired that he observed strike
the head of JFK, as well as the fact that Nellie Connally clearly wrote in
her diary that JBC was down with his head fully in her lap when the last
shot blew brain tissue/etc; all over them.
So! Unless you were there, as a definitive witness, have your own film
which demonstrates otherwise, then I will have to go with the witness
testimonies which clearly demonstrate that Z313 was the SECOND SHOT
impact, and that the third/last/final shot occurred, just as he stated it
did, down directly in front of James Altgens, and as Altgens also stated,
it struck JFK in the head.
Although I would not have expected you to be in possession of the US
Secret Service & FBI Survey Plats and survey notes, I would have expected
anyone who claimed knowledge of the assassination to have at least read
the witness testimonies of the WC, as well as other locations, and
thereafter made some effort to correlate this information.
curtjester1
There were two curb shots, and a manhole cover shot. The first curb
shot was to the motorcyclists right just after the TSBD on the north
side of Elm. The other was on the south side of Elm down by the TU
that hit Tague. The manhole cover was on the south side of Elm, and
it deflected off that and went into the grass where there was a
furrow, and picked up by the FBI.
If you have a copy of Six Seconds in Dallas you can see in zapruder
frame 230 that JBC is perfectly still and stoic, where JFK has emerged
from behind the sign with his hands already by his neck, which one
would have to know that he was hit much earlier than when he was
coming from out of the sign at zapruder frame 225. There is also the
Hughes film and Weaver photo that show a man seconds before the
shooting standing in the window next to the so-called SN, so you more
than one at the sixth floor.
There have been accousical studies of echos and spike marks of such
that have had 4, 5, and 6 shots purported.
If you have 313 as a last hit, then obviously you have two shooters if
you feel that one followed. Many do feel there was a simultaneous hit
from the back and front, and if so would account for the tremendous
controvery over the damaged President's head.
CJ
Brokedad
> In article <1192032703.773064.212...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
294 feet (98 yards) slope distance from the sixth floor window to that
point on Elm St. at which JFK was located, to be exact!
As determined by the US Secret Service during their December 2, 3, &
4th survey work and re-enactment, and as verified by the FBI during
their February 7, 1964 survey work and re-enactment.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holland.htm
Mr. HOLLAND - And about that time he went over like that [indicating],
and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as I could
tell.
Mr. STERN - Now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward
and raised your right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - Pulled forward and hand just stood like that
momentarily.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand?
Mr. HOLLAND - His right hand; and that was the first report that I
heard.
Mr. STERN - What did it sound like?
Mr. HOLLAND - Well, it was pretty loud,
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z227.jpg
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isn't it nice to have pictures to put to the words of those who could
not have seen what the film also demonstrates?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. HOLLAND - and Governor Connally turned in this fashion, like that
[indicating] with his hand out, and another report.
Mr. STERN - With his right hand out?
Mr. HOLLAND - Turning to his right.
Mr. STERN - To his right?
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0042a.htm
Z312
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still sounds like relatively accurate testimony to me!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his
seat,
Now, I mean, that was apparently that---she turned back around, and by
the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in---I'd
say along in here [indicating].
Mr. STERN - How do you know that? Did you observe that?
Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the
floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---
Mr. STERN - Did you hear a third report?
Mr. HOLLAND - I heard a third report and I counted four shots
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm
Mr. HUDSON - I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet
hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that
correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a
little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?
Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z313.jpg
Mr. HUDSON - Right along there is about where President Kennedy's car
was when he was hit - at the time I was looking right at him when the
shot struck him, when the bullet struck him.
Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?
Mr. HUDSON - Three.
Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the
head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question
in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here
another shot?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty
close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere
right along in there.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the
head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs.
Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the
neck after he had been hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do
Mr. LIEBELER - He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could
have been hit?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you watch the President after he got hit in the
head like that?
Mr. HUDSON - Well as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you
know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too.
Mr. LIEBELER - So you only saw the President hit once; is that right,
sir?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir; I just saw him hit once.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And you aren't able to say from your own observation
when he was hit in the neck?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - If he was hit in the neck.
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Nonsense."
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0464b.htm
Z313:-------------------------Stationing 4+65.3
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0449a.htm
Last shot impact point:------------------Stationing 4+96* (500 minum 4
= 4+96) *actual survey stationing of the point which was surveyed in
and thereafter placed onto the survey plats was survey stationing
4+95.
Now, the question remains?----Can you do simple math Anthony????
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg
JFK's location at survey stationing 4+95/4+96.
One just may want to take note of the "sprocket hole" film problem,
and in event that they have nothing better to do, compare it with
those frames in/around the Z210 sequence.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which
would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--
about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side
that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.
Mr. ALTGENS - I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the
President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good
closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that
it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area,
and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as
far as I got with my camera.
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg
Mr. LIEBELER - So, it is clear from your testimony that the third
shot--the last shot, rather--hit the President?
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, off and on we have been referring to the third
shot and the fourth shot; but actually, it was the last shot, the shot
did strike the President and there was no other sound like a shot that
was made after that.
Mr. ALTGENS - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of
his head in my direction from where I was standing,
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11215&pid=122167&st=0&
Think:
1. Lead Fragment!
2. Limited velocity!
3. Minor scratch on face.
4. Unknown origin of extremely minor scratch on face, as to caused by
either a piece of concrete curb or small fragment of lead.
5. Tague clearly identified the "sting" as being associated with the
SECOND SHOT/aka the headshot at Z313 in which the bullet severely
fragmented.
6. Completely unknown as to whether the found curb impact mark is or
is not directly related to the slight "scratch" which Tague received,
or whether the scratch was created by a separate fragment.
7. First shot observed striking JFK
8. Second shot observed strilking JFK
9. Third/last/final shot observed striking JFK.
(difficulty rating of ZERO to figure this one out)!
And lastly, since there was only one bullet to actually fragment, and
a considerable portion of it's factory weight is completely
unaccounted for, then it truly is not that difficult for one to add 1
+ 1 together to determine that Tague was struck by either one of these
small fragments of lead which had a limited velocity, or else he was
struck by a small piece of concrete which was chipped off from the
concrete curb as a result of the impact of a lead fragment to the
curb.
"Bullets" do not cause a small scratch and minor "sting" to the face.
Copper jacketed bullet impacts to concrete curbs do not leave ONLY
lead residue.
Full velocity bullet impacts to curbs, do considerably more damage
than some small "chip" to the curb.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/tague.htm
And I says, "Well, you know now, I recall something sting me on the
face while I was standing down there."
Mr. LIEBELER. Now, that is where you were standing when you apparently
got hit with this flying, whatever it was?
Mr. TAGUE. Right.
Mr. TAGUE. This man was relating his story of how he was standing
right there as he witnessed the facts. He said it looked like the
President's head exploded. And I said I felt something hit me.
(note: certainly sounds like Z313 to me)
Mr. TAGUE. I felt it at the time, but I didn't associate, didn't make
any connection, and ignored it. And after this happened, or maybe the
second or third shot, I couldn't tell you definitely--I made no
connection.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any idea which bullet might have made that
mark?
Mr. TAGUE. I would guess it was either the second or third. I wouldn't
say definitely on which one.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get
hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third
shot afterwards.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. I heard three shots; yes sir. And I did notice the time on
the Hertz clock. It was 12:29.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. LIEBELER. So you, being in a place where there was no echo, you
were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe so.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you say you heard three shots?
Mr. TAGUE. That is right.
Mr. TAGUE. No; I said I thought that all three shots were accounted
for. All the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were
accounted for.
Mr. LIEBELER. In terms of hitting in the car?
Mr. TAGUE. Hitting into the car; yes.
(one just may want to check this out as it was PRIOR to someone's
determination that perhaps they should not tell us the facts) and
thereafter started this highly publicized rumor:
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, there was a story in the paper more recently that
indicated that one of them might have missed.
Lastly, it is quite unfortunate that you fell for and believed "THE
SHOT THAT MISSED", aka the Warren Commission.
Personally, I was never so naive to believe that ANYONE who possessed
the ability to hit JFK at least two out of three shots, could not at
least hit somewhere within the entire realm of the Presidential Limo
on a third shot. Even if that shot did for some reason miss JFK.
And just in event that it is of any consequence, I too have suffered a
"lead fragment" embedded into my chest as a result of a richochet
fragment in which the bullet struck gravel rocks, fragmented the
bullet, and sent a small lead fragment flying in my direction, which
was completely out of the line of fire.
So! The moral of that story being not to waste time in some attempt to
tell me what bullets and bullet fragments can and can not do!
Brokedad
A "nice story"!
Unfortunately, it does not fit any of the forensic; ballistic;
pathological; and/or physical facts.
Not to mention that it also fits virtually none of the witness
testimony.
Besides the little known fact that the entire curb and gutter of Elm
St., as well as Elm St. itself, was thoroughly searched in attempt to
find some indication of a bullet impact. Yet none was ever found.
Nope! Not some "cock & bull" story from the FBI/SS/DPD/etc;.
Personally relayed to me by Robert West, Surveyor, in his home in
Dallas, TX.
The entire street as well as the concrete curb and gutter were
completely and repeatedly checked, and absolutely no indication of a
bullet impact could be found.
*Ignore the "sparks in the street", as:
1. Copper Jacketed bullets do not create sparks! (too many movies
does this to one)
2. Even steel-jacketed bullets do not create sparks when impacting an
asphalt street, unless for some reason it should penetrate deep enough
into the asphalt to find an aggregate (rock). (again, too many movies
does this to one)
burgundy
> Tom,
>
> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
>
> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!"
If that's the James Tague curb those fragments travelled quite a
distance.
cdddraftsman
Your almost there , but there is no evidence that JFK yelled out
anything in the Z-Film . We would definately see him reacting at Z-160
and all he does is drop his right arm , there's no expression of pain
or body movement , AAMOF all is normal until he emerges from behind
the sign and the second shot per Dale Myers :
See :
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/concl.htm
See:
Conclusions Based on the Computer Analysis
See :
There are three reactions to gunfire evident ......
He's got all the bases covered .........!
Lights Out ......Goodnight Irene ......tl
claviger
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately it did not work for my computer. Do you
remember which witnesses said they heard one more shot after the head
shot?
John Canal
says...
>
>On Oct 10, 11:23?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article <1192032703.773064.212...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>> says...
<TOP POST>
The medical evidence thoroughly trumps witness testimony. Obviously,
though, you've got your mind made up so it doesn't make any sense for me
to argue with you.....maybe someone else will.
John Canal
Brokedad
> In article <1192117297.009449.295...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>
> >Z312
>
> >http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z312.jpg
>
> >-------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------
>
> - Show quoted text -
Actually!
The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
of the head by two separate bullets.
Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
evidence either!
Anthony Marsh
> On Oct 11, 12:12 am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Tom,
>>
>> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
>> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
>>
>> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
>> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
>> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!"
>
> If that's the James Tague curb those fragments travelled quite a
> distance.
>
I don't think that's what he means. I think he meant hit the pavement
behind the limo.
claviger
Roy H. Kellerman
Assistent Special Agent in Charge
11-29-63
____________________________________
As the motorcade completed the main thoroughfare through Dallas, we
made s sharp right turn, for about a block, then curved left turn into
a slight downhill grade, entering an area with little or no
spectators. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of
from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a
firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30
PM.
Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice.
"My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two
additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs.
Kennedy's lap and Governor Connelly fell into Mrs. Connelly's lap. I
heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and
grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police
lead car that we were hit and get us to a hospital.
____________________________________
This testimony corroborates the analysis by the ballistic expert as to
the sequence of shots and the reaction to those shots by passengers in
the President's limousine. Agent Kellerman describes three shots. He
makes it very clear after the first shot, JFK shouts "My God, I'm
hit!" As you mention the President's trachia was so damaged that he
could not speak therefore, the first shot did no damage to his throat.
Kellerman hears two more shots causing the President and Governor to
lean toward their spouses. Governor Connelly is already leaning toward
his wife at the time of the head shot, confirming that both he and the
President were hit by the second shot.
claviger
Are you related to the famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis?
claviger
Somewhere I read where there was an obvious defect in the curb on Elm
Street which was later repaired by a maintenance crew, much to the
chagrin of the research community. I believe witnesses did see a puff
of what must have been cement dust, causing them to believe it was
smoke from a firecracker.
claviger
Anthony,
I checked the testimony of Governor John Connelly and his wife Nellie
to the Warren Commission and HSCA. His testimony is the sound of the
first shot caused him to turn to his right. While turned to the right
he was struck by the second shot. Severly wounded he leaned into his
wife's lap and heard the third shot before losing consciousness. The
testimony of Nellie Connelly confirms the same sequence.
Agent Greer's testimony indicates he has the ability to focus only on
what is to the front and was not fully aware of what was going on
behind him. He makes no mention of hearing the President say anything.
The reason he was slow to react is the first shot sounded to him like
a motorcycle backfiring, a sound he heard more than once during the
motorcade. Kellerman was more aware of what was taking place inside
the limousine and ordered Greer to take off for the hospital.
Kellerman, Greer, and the Connellys testified they heard only three
shots fired at the limousine.
The Connelly's statements confirm the first shot did not wound the
Governor. Kellerman is emphatic he heard the President exclaim that he
was hit. This could only be after the first shot since the second shot
destroyed his trachia and his ability to speak.
A four member panel led by Dr. Russell Fisher, including Dr. Russell
Morgan, Dr. William Carnes, and Dr. Alan Moritz was the first group
outside the government to examine the JFK autopsy materials. They were
the first doctors to analize "Kennedy's Unknown Wound" described on
page 11 of the Bethesda autopsy report:
__________________________________________
Also there is, embedded in the outter table of the skull close to the
lower edge of the [entrance] hole , a large metallic fragment which on
the anteposterior film (#1) lies 25 mm. to the right of the midline.
This fragment as seen in the latter film is round and measures 6.5 mm.
in diameter.
__________________________________________
"Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
all."
So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
Presidential limousine.
Testimony Of Roy H. Kellerman, Special Agent, Secret Service
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm
Brokedad
>From the wonderful response, it is assumed that many here are of the
opinion that they known more about the assassination than did the US
Secret Service.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/22/2295-003.gif
Anthony Marsh
> In article <1192117297.0...@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
> says...
>> On Oct 10, 11:23?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>> In article <1192032703.773064.212...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>>> says...
>
> <TOP POST>
>
> The medical evidence thoroughly trumps witness testimony. Obviously,
> though, you've got your mind made up so it doesn't make any sense for me
> to argue with you.....maybe someone else will.
>
But the medical evidence means only what each person thinks it means.
Everyone does not agree on the interpretation of the medical evidence.
If they did, we wouldn't be here now.
Anthony Marsh
Yeah, the way they looked for the mark Tague saw and Underwood
photographed and they couldn't find it.
Anthony Marsh
How about if you actually prove something instead of insulting people?
You don't even know what locations correspond to which Zapruder frames.
> http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg
>
> http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg
>
> JFK's location at survey stationing 4+95/4+96.
> One just may want to take note of the "sprocket hole" film problem,
> and in event that they have nothing better to do, compare it with
> those frames in/around the Z210 sequence.
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
>
> Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which
> would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--
> about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side
> that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.
>
> Mr. ALTGENS - I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the
> President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good
> closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that
> it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area,
> and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as
> far as I got with my camera.
>
Again, do not rely on eyewitness statements.
John Canal
T. Purvis wrote:
>The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>of the head by two separate bullets.
Would you elaborate on that? What medical evidence specifically shows
there were two shots to the head? Please list that evidence
here__________.
Thank you.
>Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>evidence either!
Oh, there are some highly credible individuals here that might disagree
with you and say I know at least a fair amount about the medical evidence
as it relates to the head shot.
John Canal
John Canal
>But the medical evidence means only what each person thinks it means.
>Everyone does not agree on the interpretation of the medical evidence.
>If they did, we wouldn't be here now.
"Nonsense", to borrow one of your favorite words. You need for there to be
a variety of interpretations of the medical evidence so you you don't have
to make your "wacky" (another of your favorite terms) theory fit what the
autopsy doctors reported.
John Canal
Anthony Marsh
No, you are misrepresenting the evidence. Connally said that he turned to
the right and THEN was in the process of turning back to his left when he
was hit facing almost exactly straight forward. Stick to the facts.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Connally.htm
> wife's lap and heard the third shot before losing consciousness. The
> testimony of Nellie Connelly confirms the same sequence.
>
> Agent Greer's testimony indicates he has the ability to focus only on
> what is to the front and was not fully aware of what was going on
> behind him. He makes no mention of hearing the President say anything.
> The reason he was slow to react is the first shot sounded to him like
> a motorcycle backfiring, a sound he heard more than once during the
> motorcade. Kellerman was more aware of what was taking place inside
> the limousine and ordered Greer to take off for the hospital.
> Kellerman, Greer, and the Connellys testified they heard only three
> shots fired at the limousine.
>
> The Connelly's statements confirm the first shot did not wound the
> Governor. Kellerman is emphatic he heard the President exclaim that he
Precisely because he did not hear the shot which hit him! If you think
there were only three shots, then Connally only heard two. Because he did
not hear the shot which hit him. So again you are misrepresenting the
evidence to claim that the Connallys, plural testified that they heard
only three shots. You are misrepresenting the evidence. If Connally really
did hear three shots, but did not hear the one which hit him, that means
there were four shots. 3+1=4.
> was hit. This could only be after the first shot since the second shot
> destroyed his trachia and his ability to speak.
>
> A four member panel led by Dr. Russell Fisher, including Dr. Russell
> Morgan, Dr. William Carnes, and Dr. Alan Moritz was the first group
> outside the government to examine the JFK autopsy materials. They were
> the first doctors to analize "Kennedy's Unknown Wound" described on
> page 11 of the Bethesda autopsy report:
>
> __________________________________________
>
> Also there is, embedded in the outter table of the skull close to the
> lower edge of the [entrance] hole , a large metallic fragment which on
> the anteposterior film (#1) lies 25 mm. to the right of the midline.
> This fragment as seen in the latter film is round and measures 6.5 mm.
> in diameter.
> ______________
Pure nonsense.
____________________________
>
>
> "Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
> ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
> written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
> all."
>
Why should there be?
>
>
> So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
> embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
> information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
> the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
> Presidential limousine.
>
No, we don't.
Some people think a piece of the bullet which hit the head scraped off.
Anthony Marsh
Somewhere you read? Please! Stick to facts.
> chagrin of the research community. I believe witnesses did see a puff
The way you are describing it indicates the curb near Tague which was
far AHEAD of the President's car.
> of what must have been cement dust, causing them to believe it was
> smoke from a firecracker.
>
I doubt that anyone said there was smoke from a firecracker. Can you
cite and quote such testimony?
>
>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
What are you pretending to quote? Source please. Kellerman did not
misspell his name as Connelly with an "e." That's something that YOU do.
> ____________________________________
>
> As the motorcade completed the main thoroughfare through Dallas, we
> made s sharp right turn, for about a block, then curved left turn into
> a slight downhill grade, entering an area with little or no
> spectators. We were still traveling at the normal rate of speed of
> from 12 to 15 miles per hour when I heard a noise, similar to a
> firecracker, exploding in the area to the rear of the car, about 12:30
> PM.
>
> Immediately I heard what I firmly believe was the President's voice.
> "My God, I'm hit!" I turned around to find out what happened when two
> additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs.
> Kennedy's lap and Governor Connelly fell into Mrs. Connelly's lap. I
> heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
>
> I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and
> grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police
> lead car that we were hit and get us to a hospital.
> ____________________________________
>
> This testimony corroborates the analysis by the ballistic expert as to
> the sequence of shots and the reaction to those shots by passengers in
No, it does not. You can also find witnesses who reported only two shots
or four shots, or six shots. Never rely on an eyewitness statement to
prove anything.
> the President's limousine. Agent Kellerman describes three shots. He
> makes it very clear after the first shot, JFK shouts "My God, I'm
> hit!" As you mention the President's trachia was so damaged that he
> could not speak therefore, the first shot did no damage to his throat.
Everyone knows that Kellerman was wrong. We now have the Zapruder film
and Kennedy never says anything.
> Kellerman hears two more shots causing the President and Governor to
> lean toward their spouses. Governor Connelly is already leaning toward
> his wife at the time of the head shot, confirming that both he and the
> President were hit by the second shot.
>
You think so. Connally did not.
At least get his name right.
>
>
Brokedad
> Tom,
>
> Are you related to the famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis?
Far distant cousin!
He was quite obviously "off balance" as well, since he ultimately
committed suicide!
Thomas Melville Purvis (Purves), from SC to Alabama, to founding of
Purvis, MS.*
(* the original Town "Seal" for stamping documents is in my family
possession, which I have given to my oldest son)
http://www.lib.usm.edu/~archives/m252.htm
http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgenweb/ms/msphotos/lamar/fillpurv/fillpurv.htm
The "Melville" is where the "Melvin" comes into being.
That and 50-cents may get one a cup of coffee.
However, the "Purvis" name certainly came in handy many years ago
which I used to speak with Frazier; Gallagher; Heilman; Heiberger;
etc; etc; in regards to the JFK issues.
Brokedad
Which one?
The one at Z313 which impacted in the "cowlick" area of the skull and
thus blew off the "skull cap" section of JFK's head?
or:
The one some 30-feet farther down Elm St. which struck JFK in the edge
of the hairline of the neck, traversed through the soft tissue at the
base of the neck/skull, and ultimately struck in the vicinity of the
EOP?
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
In event you have nothing better in life to do, there are those who
will attempt to "sell" you a reduced copy of the WC Survey Plat which
contains markings which claim to be where damage to the curb was
found.
Unfortunately, this rates up there with the "Six-Groove Bullet" and
the "Bottom Mounted Sling" swivel, in factual reality.
During the Time/Life assassination re-enactment and survey work of
11/26/63, as well as again throughout the SS assassination re-
enactment and survey work of 12/2, 3, & 4th, 1963, the entire street
(Elm St.) as well as adjacent curb, street gutter; and sidewalk, curb
inlets, etc; were thoroughly searched in effort to find any indication
of bullet impact.
None was found.
The ONLY area of any identifiable potential bullet impact was the
damage to the curb on Main St. which is associated with the "Tague"
hit.
Per personal conversations with Robert West, Surveyor! (Who by the
way also sent me copies of those photo's claiming bullet impacts down
by the curb inlet and manhole)
Brokedad
>
> > Z313:-------------------------Stationing 4+65.3
>
> >http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0...
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
You don't even know what locations correspond to which Zapruder
frames.
>
Perhaps not!
However, since I am in possession of:
1. 1 full-sized copy of the Time/Life survey plat dated 11/26/63
2. 1 full-sized copy of the US Secret Service survey plat dated
12/5/63
3. 2 full-sized copies of the FBI survey plat of 2/7/64
4. Two full-sized copies of the WC Survey Plat of May 31, 1964
5. Revision to the 2/7/64 FBI Survey Plat, dated 6/25/64
6. Copies of ALL known survey notes for the above assassination re-
enactment survey's.
Then, in all probability, I most likely have a far better idea as to
exactly where the Presidential Limo/President was at any given point
along Elm St., than you will ever have.
John Canal
says...
>
>On Oct 12, 4:49?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> T. Purvis wrote:
>> >The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>> >of the head by two separate bullets.
>>
>> Would you elaborate on that? What medical evidence specifically shows
>> there were two shots to the head? Please list that evidence
>> here__________.
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> >Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>> >evidence either!
>>
>> Oh, there are some highly credible individuals here that might disagree
>> with you and say I know at least a fair amount about the medical evidence
>> as it relates to the head shot.
>>
>> John Canal
>
>
>"as it relates to the head shot."
>
>Which one?
>
>The one at Z313 which impacted in the "cowlick" area of the skull and
>thus blew off the "skull cap" section of JFK's head?
>
>or:
I asked you to list the medical evidence proving your two shots to the
head theory and all you wrote were your conclusions.
Are you going to list the evidence or not?
The physical locations of where you think he was hit do not constitute
medical evidence...even someone who is good at making wisecracks should
know that.
List that medical evdence here_______________.
"or", just say you don't know of any.
John Canal
tomnln
As American Citizens, June & Rachael would STAY in this Country.
"Brokedad" <tempty...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1192277034....@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
> On 10 Oct 2007 16:34:38 -0400, Brokedad <temptypock...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Thomas H. Purvis says:
>
> >One last time for those who actually care!
>
> >1. Three shots were fired in the assassination shooting sequence.
>
> >2. All shots were fired from the 6.5mm Carcano rifle which was found
> >on the sixth floor of the TSDB.
>
> >3. To an extremely high probability (beyond any reasonable doubt), LHO
> >was the shooter.
>
> >4. Each of the three shots fired, struck JFK.
>
> >5. The Z313 headshot IS NOT the final shot in the shooting sequence.
> >It is in fact the second shot fired.
>
> >his USMC Rangefire Record.
>
> >7. The maximum distance of any shot fired was approximately 98 yards
> >(slope distance) from the window to the target.
>
> >8. LHO repeatedly, in the USMC, demonstrated the abililty to shoot in
> >those ranges of accuracy for EXPERT qualification during "Rapid Fire"
> >shooting exercises at targets of 200+ yards.
>
> >the head of JFK some 30-feet farther down Elm St. than that location
> >of the second shot impact at frame# 313 of the Zapruder film.
>
> >assassination in which the WC presented that all of the shots were
> >fired within an approximate 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame window
> >(first shot to Z313 impact point), and that due to this "rushed"
> >shooting scenario, one of the shots completely missed everything and
> >everyone.
>
>
>
> >12. With the available evidence, which included a first generation
> >copy of the Z-film, as well as availability of the witness
> >testimonies, the US Secret Service as well as the FBI, easily resolved
> >the shooting sequence of the shots fired.
>
> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0068a.htm
>
> >13. There is absolutely nothing which is complicated in regards to the
> >shooting sequence which occurred in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63.
> >What is complicated is the extent to which certain members of the WC
> >went to in order to make an entire shot "disappear", and thereafter
> >blame the wounds which the bullet created on CE399/aka the "Magic
> >Bullet".
>
> >14. CE399 is not "Magic".
>
> >15. In event that one desires to see the TRUE "Magic Bullet", then
> >might I recommend that they search for the one which disappeared.
>
> >There is no Magic!
>
> fired from the sixth floor by Oswald....but the first shot was at
> approximately Z160. It missed the limousine completely.
>
> Z313 was the LAST shot in the sequence. Sorry, but facts is facts.- Hide quoted text -
>
***Mr. Zapruder said that he saw JFK slump over after the first report.
Mrs. Connally said she turned around to look at JFK and see his hands at
his throat, after the first report.
In the Altgens photo, 3 agents were turned to the rear. Landis and Hickey
said they turned to the rear after hearing the first report. They were
both, just casually observing the crowd, as they disappeared from the
sprockets of Mr. Zapruder's film, well after Z160.
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
No, you don't, because:
A.) the West map was inaccurate
B.) the FBI and SS surveys were inaccurate
C.) the SS reenactment was inaccurate
D.) the FBI reenactment was inaccurate
E.) the placement of JFK at each Zapruder frame was inaccurate
F.) when you try to determine where the bullet hit for the shot which
you/FBI/SS thought hit Connally you are looking at the location of JFK,
not Connally who was a couple of feet in front of JFK.
Tell everyone when LIFE and the CIA thought each shot hit.
claviger
Anthony,
The Connallys testified there were 3 shots fired at the Presidential
limousine. Governor Connally claims the first shot did not hit him, nor
the third shot. By process of elimination it must have been the second
shot that wounded the Governor. Elementary Doctor Watson!
JFK Assassination Witness Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. IV - Page 129
Testimony of Gov. John Bowden Jr, Connally
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page129.php
Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. IV - Page 146
Testimony of Mrs. John Bowden Jr, Connally
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page146.php
- Show quoted text -
"Pure nonsense."
How so? Check it out for yourself:
The National Archives - JFK Assassination Records
Appendix 9: Autopsy Report and Supplemental Report
http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/
____________________________
> "Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
> ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
> written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
> all."
"Why should there be?"
Isn't that the purpose of an autopsy when a crime has been committed?
> So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
> embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
> information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
> the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
> Presidential limousine.
"No, we don't."
In 1968 Attorney General Ramsey Clark appointed a special panel of medical
experts to review the autopsy report made by the Bethesda Naval Hospital
on the body of President Kennedy. A group of four prominent medical
doctors were selected on the basis of their expertise and professional
reputation to serve on this panel. They were of the opinion this bullet
fragment located in the outer table of the skull beneath the entrance
wound could only have penetrated the scalp from outside the cranium. This
wound would be consistent with the fragmentation of a bullet resulting
from a ricochet off a hard surface.
"Some people think a piece of the bullet which hit the head scraped off."
What people? What does "scraped off" mean?
Anthony Marsh
The autopsy doctors were incompetent. Do you believe that the entrance
wound was shallow and that the bullet fell out during heart massage as
Humes said? That's pretty wacky. Do you believe the shots came from 45 to
60 degrees above as Humes said? That's impossible. Do you believe that
there had been surgery to the top of the head as Humes said? Then you are
a Liftonite.
> John Canal
>
>
claviger
I will try to find the witness who said that but it may take awhile. I've
been reading about this subject for several years and I can't remember
every source, but that should not inhibit discussion. Perhaps someone else
has read the same thing and can help us identify the witness. I also
remember there was a chip or gouge in the curb on Elm Street that was
repaired by a maintenance crew. This was decried by critics of the WC as
an attempt to cover up evidence of an errant shot.
claviger
Kellerman, Roy S. WC Testimony, Original Report Agent, U.S. Secret
Service.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
"Everyone knows that Kellerman was wrong."
Everybody? That's a lot of people! How do they know he's wrong? Why is
he wrong?
"We now have the Zapruder film and Kennedy never says anything."
The Zapruder film shows President Kennedy looking to his right,
relaxed and smiling as the limousine passes behind the Stemmons Fwy
sign. When the limousine emerges from behind the sign his posture is
completely different. He is facing forward and tensed up with his
fists under his chin. Obviously something happened to cause this
physical reaction. If you are trying to read his lips you can't see
his face while blocked by the sign. If the first shot missed the
limousine and hit the cement curb scattering bullet particles like
schrapnel, one fragment which embedded into the back of the Presidents
head, this is when he would be able to still speak the words "My God,
I'm hit!" This wound obviously took place behind the street sign and
is the first shot heard by Gov. Connally causing him to turn to the
right. The next shot pierced the President's back and throat slamming
into Gov. Connally. This wound destroyed the President's trachea so he
could no longer speak. The Connallys heard the third shot realizing it
probably hit the President.
John Canal
No, but I don't posit wacky theories like you, i.e. NO HITS TO THE
BOH????????????? In fact, out of the thousands of JFK researchers, I'd venture
that you're the only one with that "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory.
Now, regarding the relatively inconsequential opinions by Humes that you listed,
for God's sake, what's really important [Duh!] is that he was spot on when he
reported that JFK was hit in the head by ONE shot from behind...and, oh, BTW,
the medical evidence backs him up 100%...as do about a dozen forensic
pathologists.
IMO, your wacky theory is crazier than either the Greer did it or Jackie shot
JFK theories. Indeed, Anthony, you ought to go on tour with your
theories...heck, I can see a standing ovation now...except...they are standing
to leave after your opening statement.
John Canal
>> John Canal
>>
>>
>
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Do you believe that the entrance
> wound was shallow and that the bullet fell out during heart massage as
> Humes said? That's pretty wacky. Do you believe the shots came from 45 to
> 60 degrees above as Humes said? That's impossible."
Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of
that evidence.
As a general rule, it merely means that one either does not
understand, or is incapable of understanding the evidence.
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Better Yet!
Marsh is "inaccurate"!
That pretty well takes care of all ot it!
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ron:
Time/Life, with availability of the original Z-film, on 11/26/63,
determined that the first shot was fired just as JFK passed the
leading edge of the Stemmons Road Sign. This fortunately, is "first
source" information.
Based on the surveyed position, transposed to the much larger WC
Survey Plat, this position equates to approximately the Z204/206
location.
Which also happens to correspond with what the "blur/jiggle" analysis
of frames 209/210/ & 211, when one computes the approximate time/
distance factor for the sound to have reached Zapruder.
Note: The survey work done for Time/Life by G. Breneman is extremely
poor and would not qualify as a "legal survey".
Due to a variety of problems with this work, attempting to transpose
this data to the considerably larger and more accurate WC survey plat,
has it's limitations to accuracy.
The SS as well as the FBI determined that JFK was fully struck by and
reacting to the impact of the first shot at what would be
approximately Z212/214.
Verification of this came through evaluation of several photo's, and
both ( SS & FBI) separately confirmed this in two separate survey's
and assassination re-enactments.
Brokedad
> On Oct 12, 11:33?am, claviger <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
>
> > Are you related to the famous FBI agent Melvin Purvis?
>
> Far distant cousin!
>
> He was quite obviously "off balance" as well, since he ultimately
> committed suicide!
>
> Thomas Melville Purvis (Purves), from SC to Alabama, to founding of
> Purvis, MS.*
>
> (* the original Town "Seal" for stamping documents is in my family
> possession, which I have given to my oldest son)
>
> http://www.lib.usm.edu/~archives/m252.htm
>
>
> The "Melville" is where the "Melvin" comes into being.
>
> That and 50-cents may get one a cup of coffee.
>
> However, the "Purvis" name certainly came in handy many years ago
> which I used to speak with Frazier; Gallagher; Heilman; Heiberger;
> etc; etc; in regards to the JFK issues.
Back to geneology!
My mother's side of the family donated my "Howell" bloodline!
For another cup of coffee, (add 50-cents to this), the name "Purvis"
as well as "Howell" are written in the diary of LHO.
The "Oswald" family is originally from S. Mississippi,* as is the
"Harvey" family.
LHO's Grandfather was married in Harrison County, MS.
LHO's Mother & Ekdahl were married in S. MS.
Thomas Harvey Purvis was married in Gulfport/Harrison County, MS. (for
whatever that is worth)
"Purvis, MS" is just up the road from New Orleans, LA
*Actually, the Oswald family (of MS) is originally from Wilkinson
County, MS.
As is another famous Southerner:
http://www.rosemontplantation.com/
Who was married to "Varina Howell".
And lastly, Judge Robert H. Oswald, distant cousin of LHO, resides
right down the road in Pascagoula, MS.
And, as a member of the "Jackson County (MS) Citizens Council,
Attorney Robert H. Oswald was highly engaged in keeping the beaches of
Biloxi and Gulfport, MS (Harrison County) segregated, at exactly the
same period in life that LHO was attending Radar Operator School at
Keesler AFB, Gulfport, MS.
Not to mention the fact that in December 1961, Robert H. Oswald wrote
an article in which he severely condemned General Walker for having
not immediately resigned, as opposed to having commanded those troops
which were in charge of the Little Rock desegragation.
Lastly! Another former resident of Pascagoula, MS of some "note",
would be Mr. Farrell.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2243&pid=93386&st=105&#entry93386entry93386
Post #108
Irrelevant as to your interest, the MS Gulf Coast has it all!
Gambling
UFO's
Astronauts
Astronomically Nutty persons
As well as much about the Oswald family.
Brokedad
> In article <1192278955.010823.84...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
"The physical locations of where you think he was hit do not
constitute
> medical evidence...even someone who is good at making wisecracks should
> know that."
Well!
Since you claim to know such a great deal, then it is assumed that you
are hopefully aware of the fact that:
1. The bullet entrance through the skull which the autopsy surgeons
reported was in the vicinity of the EOP.
2. The bullet entrance through the skull which the HSCA observed from
review of the anterior/posterior X-ray, happens to be some 10 cm (4-
inches higher than the EOP location as reported by the autopsy
surgeons).
3. The physical dimensions of the entrance wound through the skull
which the autopsy surgeons measured, does not match the physical
dimensions of the entrance through the skull which the HSCA
determined.
4. The actual point of entrance for the bullet which struck JFK in
the EOP region of the skull was at the edge of the hairline at the
base of the skull.*
*Perhaps you would like to explain exactly how a 2,000 fps copper-
jacketed bullet, fired on a downward angle of from 12- degrees to 18-
degrees, struck in the edge of the hairline at the base of the skull
and thereafter entered the skull some 6 or so inches higher, at the
cowlick area.
NOW! I happen to know a lot of grade school kids who can figure this
one out.
Not to mention that the elongated nature of the EOP entry through the
skull will fully tell one the "angle of attack"/attitude in which the
skull had to have been in, in order to have received this elongated
penetration through the skull.
Lastly, at risk of re-incurring the wrath of Mr. Von Pein:
Point A---------oblique bullet entrance through the coat of JFK at the
edge of the coat collar and slightly right of center of the coat.
Point B---------bullet penetration into the skin of JFK at the edge of
the hairline at the base of the neck, slightly right of center
Point C--------bullet pathway through the soft flesh of the neck of
JFK at the base of the skull.
Point D--------elongated bullet entrance through the skull of JFK,
slightly to the right of center and slightly above the EOP.
Point E--------bullet entrance into the brain of JFK at the upper edge
of the occipital lobe of the brain.
Try "connecting the dots", and if and when you can figure it out, then
get back to me on it and I just may describe the remainder of the
bullet track through the mid-brain!
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
***The blur that Breneman should have looked at was at Z227. It was an
odd jump. It also was in virtual sync with JFK's springing arms and JBC's
springing right arm. I believe the jump at Z227 to be Zapruder's startle
reaction to hearing the first shot.
I believe the LN consensus, missed first shot, needs to be re- evaluated.
***Ron Judge
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
>
***If Oswald was doing all the shooting, he would have seen JFK's lifeless
body, fall back against the seat, after the fatal shot. I imagine he
would have assumed he killed the President. I do not believe he would
have found reason to shoot again.
If there were 2 shooters, if one saw JFK's head explode, it is unlikely he
would have also fired, unless he was coincidently firing at the same time
as the other shooter, or about to fire and reflexively pulled the trigger
in response to the other shot.
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
But what frame did LIFE pick for the first shot in its analysis?
> Which also happens to correspond with what the "blur/jiggle" analysis
> of frames 209/210/ & 211, when one computes the approximate time/
> distance factor for the sound to have reached Zapruder.
>
Whose jiggle analysis shows frames 209/210/211? Source please.
> Note: The survey work done for Time/Life by G. Breneman is extremely
> poor and would not qualify as a "legal survey".
> Due to a variety of problems with this work, attempting to transpose
> this data to the considerably larger and more accurate WC survey plat,
> has it's limitations to accuracy.
>
>
> The SS as well as the FBI determined that JFK was fully struck by and
> reacting to the impact of the first shot at what would be
> approximately Z212/214.
>
They never specified any specific frames.
Anthony Marsh
Why these constant personal attacks. I have a lot more information than
you do. Is it jealousy? My sarcasm was accurate and proves that the
autopsy doctors were incompetent.
Anthony Marsh
> In article <5qqdneJTGdnFD4za...@comcast.com>, Anthony Marsh says...
>> John Canal wrote:
>>> Marsh wrote:
>>>
>>>> But the medical evidence means only what each person thinks it means.
>>>> Everyone does not agree on the interpretation of the medical evidence.
>>>> If they did, we wouldn't be here now.
>>> "Nonsense", to borrow one of your favorite words. You need for there to be
>>> a variety of interpretations of the medical evidence so you you don't have
>>> to make your "wacky" (another of your favorite terms) theory fit what the
>>> autopsy doctors reported.
>>>
>> The autopsy doctors were incompetent. Do you believe that the entrance
>> wound was shallow and that the bullet fell out during heart massage as
>> Humes said? That's pretty wacky. Do you believe the shots came from 45 to
>> 60 degrees above as Humes said? That's impossible. Do you believe that
>> there had been surgery to the top of the head as Humes said? Then you are
>> a Liftonite.
>
> No, but I don't posit wacky theories like you, i.e. NO HITS TO THE
> BOH????????????? In fact, out of the thousands of JFK researchers, I'd venture
> that you're the only one with that "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory.
>
That might have been true before David Wimp's presentation, but now many
researchers such as Josiah Thompson believe that there was only one shot
to the head and it came from the right front.
> Now, regarding the relatively inconsequential opinions by Humes that you listed,
> for God's sake, what's really important [Duh!] is that he was spot on when he
> reported that JFK was hit in the head by ONE shot from behind...and, oh, BTW,
> the medical evidence backs him up 100%...as do about a dozen forensic
> pathologists.
>
No, you miss the point of my sarcasm. Those are examples of how
incompetent the autopsy doctors were. And you can't even admit that
simplest point. Like a doctor operating on the wrong arm or leaving
forceps in the body or leaving the patient on the operating table to go
cash his check.
> IMO, your wacky theory is crazier than either the Greer did it or Jackie shot
> JFK theories. Indeed, Anthony, you ought to go on tour with your
> theories...heck, I can see a standing ovation now...except...they are standing
> to leave after your opening statement.
>
When you have run out of facts you resort to personal attacks.
> John Canal
>
>>> John Canal
>>>
>>>
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Because we've been over this thousands of times, but you never saw the
messages. None of the other passengers in the limo said that Kennedy
spoke at all. He had a torn trachea. The Zapruder film shows that he
never spoke.
>
> "We now have the Zapruder film and Kennedy never says anything."
>
> The Zapruder film shows President Kennedy looking to his right,
> relaxed and smiling as the limousine passes behind the Stemmons Fwy
> sign. When the limousine emerges from behind the sign his posture is
> completely different. He is facing forward and tensed up with his
> fists under his chin. Obviously something happened to cause this
> physical reaction. If you are trying to read his lips you can't see
> his face while blocked by the sign. If the first shot missed the
> limousine and hit the cement curb scattering bullet particles like
> schrapnel, one fragment which embedded into the back of the Presidents
> head, this is when he would be able to still speak the words "My God,
> I'm hit!" This wound obviously took place behind the street sign and
> is the first shot heard by Gov. Connally causing him to turn to the
> right. The next shot pierced the President's back and throat slamming
> into Gov. Connally. This wound destroyed the President's trachea so he
> could no longer speak. The Connallys heard the third shot realizing it
> probably hit the President.
>
>
So your only way out is to think up a shot while he was behind the sign?
That's an old WC trick. But that shot tore through his trachea so he
could not speak. Explain how you have two shots within the range of
frames 210 to 225.
>
>
Anthony Marsh
The problem is that you've read a lot of junk and you get confused.
> every source, but that should not inhibit discussion. Perhaps someone else
Yes, it should inhibit discussion. Don't post some nonsense just because
you think you read it somewhere. You could have seen it in the National
Enquirer.
> has read the same thing and can help us identify the witness. I also
> remember there was a chip or gouge in the curb on Elm Street that was
> repaired by a maintenance crew. This was decried by critics of the WC as
> an attempt to cover up evidence of an errant shot.
You are getting confused again. To help you keep things straight we will
refer to this as Tague's curb. That's what you think you read about. Yes,
the WC tried to cover it up because it thought it was an extra shot.
Anthony Marsh
That is not what you said originally. You said they testified that they
HEARD 3 shots. But John Connally did not hear the shot which hit him. He
knew to add it to the other two he DID hear, because he felt it.
> limousine. Governor Connally claims the first shot did not hit him, nor
> the third shot. By process of elimination it must have been the second
> shot that wounded the Governor. Elementary Doctor Watson!
>
Be careful how you phrase things.
> JFK Assassination Witness Page
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
> Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. IV - Page 129
> Testimony of Gov. John Bowden Jr, Connally
> http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page129.php
> Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. IV - Page 146
> Testimony of Mrs. John Bowden Jr, Connally
> http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page146.php
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
> "Pure nonsense."
>
> How so? Check it out for yourself:
> The National Archives - JFK Assassination Records
> Appendix 9: Autopsy Report and Supplemental Report
> http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/
> ____________________________
>
>> "Even though Fisher said the panel believed the fragment looked like a
>> ricochet fragment, there was no mention of this conjecture in the
>> written report. In fact, there was no explanation for the fragment at
>> all."
>
> "Why should there be?"
>
> Isn't that the purpose of an autopsy when a crime has been committed?
>
The autopsy doctors were incompetent. They missed several things.
>> So we do have medical proof of a wound caused by a ricochet fragment
>> embedded into the back of the President's skull. All of the above
>> information was used by an experienced ballistics expert to determine
>> the sequence of shots and resulting wounds on the passengers in the
>> Presidential limousine.
>
> "No, we don't."
>
> In 1968 Attorney General Ramsey Clark appointed a special panel of medical
> experts to review the autopsy report made by the Bethesda Naval Hospital
> on the body of President Kennedy. A group of four prominent medical
> doctors were selected on the basis of their expertise and professional
> reputation to serve on this panel. They were of the opinion this bullet
> fragment located in the outer table of the skull beneath the entrance
> wound could only have penetrated the scalp from outside the cranium. This
> wound would be consistent with the fragmentation of a bullet resulting
> from a ricochet off a hard surface.
>
That is only YOUR guess, not any official conclusion.
> "Some people think a piece of the bullet which hit the head scraped off."
>
> What people? What does "scraped off" mean?
Scraped off is their crazy theory that some of the bullet sheared off the
base when the lead core was squeezed out on impact. Remember that the
fragment in the front of the car was only the copper jacket and the lead
core had been squeezed out. The problem for them is that the lead core is
only about 4.5 mm wide, not 6.5 mm. Someone overlooked that fact when
making up the story about the object being shaved off the back of the
bullet. They had remembered that Oswald's rifle caliber was 6.5 mm so they
thought their fragment must be 6.5 mm to have come from his rifle. This
error indicates the flaw in their cover-up story.
John Canal
says...
Ok, I'm actually a little new at this, so maybe I don't understand the
head shot medical evidence that well.
Even so, maybe you, seeing that you know it so much better than me, could
list right here for me (in easy-to-understand terms) the medical evidence
that shows JFK was hit in the BOH twice.
This is the third time I've asked you this...but, perhaps you think I'll
just be confused with your answers and that's why you haven't complied
with my request? How about trying anyway....put that medical ev. for two
BOH hits right here________________________.
John Canal
John Canal
If you plan to state facts, you're off to a lousy start...when did I ever
claim to know a "great deal"?
>then it is assumed that you
>are hopefully aware of the fact that:
>
>1. The bullet entrance through the skull which the autopsy surgeons
>reported was in the vicinity of the EOP.
Ok.
>2. The bullet entrance through the skull which the HSCA observed from
>review of the anterior/posterior X-ray, happens to be some 10 cm (4-
>inches higher than the EOP location as reported by the autopsy
>surgeons).
Well, that did take long for you to shoot your own theory in the foot. The
HSCA agreed with Humes that the semicircular beveled defect seen in F8 was
****THE****, as in singular, ENTRY......they just disagreed on the
location of that defect.....the HSCA agreeing with the Clark Panel on it
being appx. 4 inches above the EOP and Humes saying it was only slightly
above the EOP.
We really don't have to go past this point, but I know you won't listen.
Heck, no one on this NG has ever admitted being wrong about a significant
issue regardless of the number of facts that may have been presented to
them by other posters showing them that they were wrong....why should you
be different.
>3. The physical dimensions of the entrance wound through the skull
>which the autopsy surgeons measured, does not match the physical
>dimensions of the entrance through the skull which the HSCA
>determined.
They disagreed on a lot more than that...but they agreed there was only
ONE entry.
>4. The actual point of entrance for the bullet which struck JFK in
>the EOP region of the skull was at the edge of the hairline at the
>base of the skull.*
B/S. Read the autopsy report. The entry in the scalp was slightly above
the EOP and the hole in the skull corresponded to it. Sure Humes talked
later about some tunelling, but he said many things later that conflicted
with what he wrote in the autopsy report......one has to put the greatest
evidenciary weight on the report...not something he said later, e.g. such
as when he was being grilled by the FPP.
In any case, support for what Humes wrote in the report about the the hole
in scalp and skull being in the same place comes from Dr. Zimmerman-he
examined the original photo #45 and could see a bluish light showing
through both the entrance hole in the scalp and skull. Humes also said
this in his HSCA deposition.
>*Perhaps you would like to explain exactly how a 2,000 fps copper-
>jacketed bullet, fired on a downward angle of from 12- degrees to 18-
>degrees, struck in the edge of the hairline at the base of the skull
>and thereafter entered the skull some 6 or so inches higher, at the
>cowlick area.
Wow, that's a toughy. The bullet deformed as it penetrated near the EOP
and deflected up about 20 degrees. Lattimer, who fired hundreds of 6.5 mm
MC rounds from his Mannlicher-Carcano into wrapped human skulls realized
that the bullets often deflected....and wrote that in his book. Hell, the
nose of the bullet was badly deformed...so it would have been a ballistics
miracle, if not impossibility, for a bullet to NOT deflect with its nose
deformed like that.
Take Z-312 (I know you won't but others might)...and draw a straight line
from his EOP to the windshield damage and notice that the line passes very
close to, or precisely though the coronal suture exit. You can call that a
coincidence if you want, but I think most exercising common sense would
call it more than that.
>NOW! I happen to know a lot of grade school kids who can figure this
>one out.
IMO, if you were one-tenth as good at interpreting the medical evidence as
it pertains to the head shot as you are at making wisecracks we wouldn't
be having this discussion.
>Not to mention that the elongated nature of the EOP entry through the
>skull will fully tell one the "angle of attack"/attitude in which the
>skull had to have been in, in order to have received this elongated
>penetration through the skull.
Because the bullet deflected up of course there was somewhat of an oval
entry.
>Lastly, at risk of re-incurring the wrath of Mr. Von Pein:
[....]
>Point B---------bullet penetration into the skin of JFK at the edge of
>the hairline at the base of the neck, slightly right of center
B/S-See above.
>Point C--------bullet pathway through the soft flesh of the neck of
>JFK at the base of the skull.
Bizarre B/S-see above.
>Point D--------elongated bullet entrance through the skull of JFK,
>slightly to the right of center and slightly above the EOP.
>Point E--------bullet entrance into the brain of JFK at the upper edge
>of the occipital lobe of the brain.
Upper edge? Wrong. That would be near the parietal lobe. Humes wrote "TIP"
of the occipital lobe which just happens to sit, vertically, near the EOP.
>Try "connecting the dots", and if and when you can figure it out, then
>get back to me on it and I just may describe the remainder of the
>bullet track through the mid-brain!
Believe me, I've connected the dots on this a long time ago....and don't
bother to get back to me...I don't want to hear anymore B/S than I have
to. Anyway, draw a straight line from the EOP to the coronal suture exit,
with JFK leaning forward about 26 deg. and you'll see that track goes
through mid-brain....and, yes, a grade-school kid can figure that out.
Here's the bottom line. FWIW, I consider your two hits to the BOH and
Marsh's no hits to the BOH theories about equal in feasibility. That said,
there aren't any judges here to say who makes the best arguments.....which
also means nobody but me is going to declare your arguments fatally
flawed........so you might as well keep on truckin...anyway, you've
invested too much time, effort and expense in your silly theory to back
out now.
John Canal
Anthony Marsh
Where is this imaginary semi-circular entrance? Show it to me.
> We really don't have to go past this point, but I know you won't listen.
> Heck, no one on this NG has ever admitted being wrong about a significant
> issue regardless of the number of facts that may have been presented to
> them by other posters showing them that they were wrong....why should you
> be different.
>
>> 3. The physical dimensions of the entrance wound through the skull
>> which the autopsy surgeons measured, does not match the physical
>> dimensions of the entrance through the skull which the HSCA
>> determined.
>
> They disagreed on a lot more than that...but they agreed there was only
> ONE entry.
>
>> 4. The actual point of entrance for the bullet which struck JFK in
>> the EOP region of the skull was at the edge of the hairline at the
>> base of the skull.*
>
> B/S. Read the autopsy report. The entry in the scalp was slightly above
> the EOP and the hole in the skull corresponded to it. Sure Humes talked
There is no entry on the scalp in the back of the head. Show me the hole.
> later about some tunelling, but he said many things later that conflicted
> with what he wrote in the autopsy report......one has to put the greatest
> evidenciary weight on the report...not something he said later, e.g. such
> as when he was being grilled by the FPP.
>
> In any case, support for what Humes wrote in the report about the the hole
> in scalp and skull being in the same place comes from Dr. Zimmerman-he
> examined the original photo #45 and could see a bluish light showing
> through both the entrance hole in the scalp and skull. Humes also said
> this in his HSCA deposition.
>
Yes, that is the glimmer off the blood clot.
>> *Perhaps you would like to explain exactly how a 2,000 fps copper-
>> jacketed bullet, fired on a downward angle of from 12- degrees to 18-
>> degrees, struck in the edge of the hairline at the base of the skull
>> and thereafter entered the skull some 6 or so inches higher, at the
>> cowlick area.
>
> Wow, that's a toughy. The bullet deformed as it penetrated near the EOP
> and deflected up about 20 degrees. Lattimer, who fired hundreds of 6.5 mm
> MC rounds from his Mannlicher-Carcano into wrapped human skulls realized
> that the bullets often deflected....and wrote that in his book. Hell, the
> nose of the bullet was badly deformed...so it would have been a ballistics
> miracle, if not impossibility, for a bullet to NOT deflect with its nose
> deformed like that.
>
The nose of what bullet? No one proved which fragments came from the
head shot. Show me this badly deformed bullet you are talking about.
> Take Z-312 (I know you won't but others might)...and draw a straight line
> from his EOP to the windshield damage and notice that the line passes very
> close to, or precisely though the coronal suture exit. You can call that a
> coincidence if you want, but I think most exercising common sense would
> call it more than that.
>
There is no coronal suture exit. There is however a semi-circular defect
in the frontal bone. Which fragment caused that and draw a straight line
through that and tell us what it pointed to.
You refuse to connect the dots to include the semi-circular defect in
the frontal bone.
John Canal
THIS EARLIER....SO I'M SENDING IT AGAIN.
>> HSCA agreed with Humes that the semicircular beveled defect seen in F8 was
>> ****THE****, as in singular, ENTRY......they just disagreed on the
>> location of that defect.....the HSCA agreeing with the Clark Panel on it
>> being appx. 4 inches above the EOP and Humes saying it was only slightly
>> above the EOP.
>>
>
>Where is this imaginary semi-circular entrance? >Show it to me.
I'm not a miracle worker...I can't make you see what you don't want to
see.
And the reason you don't want to see the entry, that everyone else I know
of CAN see, is because, if you admitted that you CAN see it, you'd also be
admitting your dumb "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory was, er...dumb.
So, please stop wasting m time and that f the moderators with your
ridiculous questions.
Thanks....ya, right, that'll be the day. :-(
John Canal
claviger
>
> >>> Tom,
> >>> The most convincing research and opinion I've read about this shooting
> >>> incident was by an experienced ballistics expert who concluded:
> >>> 1) The first shot missed the limousine and hit the curb. Fragments from
> >>> the bullet embedded into the back of the President's skull causing him to
> >>> exclaim "My God! I've been hit!" The SS agents in the presidential
> >>> limousine testified they plainly heard JFK's familiar voice blurt out
> >>> these words.
> >>> throat, causing such severe damage he was no longer able to speak.
> >>> 3) The third shot struck the President in the upper part at the back of
> >>> his skull and the shock wave of the fragmenting bullet blew out the top of
> >>> his head. A fragmenting bullet from a rifle would act as a virtual shotgun
> >>> blast exiting the skull.
> >>> This sequence explains why Governor Connelly always insisted he was hit by
> >>> a different bullet than the first one to strike the President. This
> >>> perception would be correct since the President was the only passenger hit
> >>> by fragments from the ricochet off the curb. The second shot pierced both
> >>> the President and Governor Connelly. A ballistics laboratory in Australia
> >>> proved beyond any reasonable doubt the ammunition used in Oswlad's rifle
> >>> was capable of penetrating the torso of both JFK and JBC.
These witnesses saw a shot hit the pavement beside the limousine:
JFK assassination witnesses
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
Mrs. Donald Baker
Royce Skelton
Harry D. Holmes
Warren Taylor
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sherrif Bill Decker
DPD Starvis Ellis
DEALEY PLAZA CONSPIRACY WITNESS Staff Report of the Select ... On August
5, 1978, the committee received information from former Dallas policeman
Starvis Ellis that Ellis had also seen a missile hit the ground in the ...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/hscawtns.htm
124. On August 5, 1978, the committee received information from former
Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis that Ellis had also seen a missile hit the
ground in the area of the motorcade at the time of the assassination.
Ellis said he rode on a motorcycle alongside the first car in the
motorcade, approximately 100 to 125 feet in front of the car carrying
President Kennedy.(351) Ellis said that just as he started down the hill
of Elm Street, he looked back toward President Kennedy's car and saw
debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb. (352) Ellis thought it
was a fragment grenade.(353)
125. Ellis said also that President Kennedy turned around and looked over
his shoulder.(354) The second shot then hit him, and the third shot "blew
his head up."(355)
THE GUNS OF DEALEY PLAZA
[95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125 feet
in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from the ground
at a ...
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html
[95] Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis, who rode a motorcycle 100 to 125
feet in front of the presidential limousine, saw debris come up from
the ground at a nearby curb when he looked back toward Kennedy's car.
[96]
[PDF] The JFK Assassination Medical Reference: Part 5
284) DPD Stavis "Steve" Ellis, one of the five lead motorcycle officers
in. the motorcade [Starvis]:. a) WC references: 7 H 581; 12 H 135; 19 H
134; ...
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v4n2/v4n2part5.pdf
284) DPD Stavis "Steve" Ellis, one of the five lead motorcycle
officers in
the motorcade [Starvis]:
a) WC references: 7 H 581; 12 H 135; 19 H 134; 20 H 489;
b) [see Kinney above];
c) 4/21/71 interview with Gil Toff (for "Murder From Within" [see also
"Best Evidence", pages 370-371n])---saw a hole in the windshield;
d) CFTR radio CANADA interview 1976;
e) 8/5/78 interview with the HSCA (12 HSCA 23; see also "Crossfire" by Jim
Marrs, p. 14, "High Treason", p. 22, "Who's Who in the JFK Assassination"
by Michael Benson, p. 125, and "A Complete Book of Facts" by Duffy and
Ricci", p. 171)---reported seeing a bullet strike the pavement "alongside
the first car in the motorcade, approximately 100 to 125 feet in front of
the car carrying Presi- dent Kennedy. Ellis said that just as he started
down the hill of Elm Street, he looked back toward President Kennedy's car
and saw debris come up from the ground at a nearby curb. Ellis thought it
was a fragment grenade. Ellis said also that President Kennedy turned
around and looked over his shoulder [?]. The second shot then hit him, and
the third shot 'blew his head up'." ;
f) interview with Todd Wayne Vaughan (see Vaughan's book, page 4);
g) "Pictures of the Pain" by Richard Trask (1994), pages 61, 234, 475,
616;
h) "No More Silence" by Larry Sneed (1998), pp. 142-153+photos;
i) 9/8/98 letter to Vince Palamara---"Yes, I did see a hole in the
limousine windshield at Parkland Hospital. I did not see the bone
fragment. The of- ficer on the escort with me said there was one fragment,
approximately 6 or 7 inches around.";
j) "Murder In Dealey Plaza" by James Fetzer (2000), pages 36, 147, 148,
172, 139-140
[PDF] NOVEMBER 22, 1963 (Friday)
Motorcycle officer, Starvis Ellis also will testify he sees a bullet hit
the. pavement. (Neither Decker nor Ellis will ever be questioned about
this by the ...
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf
When JFK is embalmed, Thomas Evan Robison, one of the undertakers will
describe three small wounds on the right side of the President's face -
one in the temple and two small shrapnel wounds in the face. Some
researchers have described the wound in the temple as a bullet wound and
the two "shrapnel wounds" as having hit the President when one of the
bullets missed its target and hit the pavement, causing debris to fly up
and strike the President on the right side of his face. It is further
noted in the film that JFK abruptly stops waving and lowers his right arm
just as the limo passes behind the Stemmons Freeway sign in the Zapruder
film. Researchers have suggested that he has heard the sound of the first
shot that has missed the limo and has instead hit the pavement of Elm
Street - causing stinging debris to strike the right side of his face.
If this is the case, JFK doesn't have time to fully react to being hit by
the debris before he is struck by another bullet and propelled forward.
In an interview conducted on May 26, 1992 by Certified Legal Investigator
Joe West, Thomas Evan Robison will describe JFK's wounds and partial
embalming process as follows:
Wounds:
Large gaping hole in back of head. Patched by placing piece of
rubber.....over it.
Thinks skull full of Plaster of Paris.
Smaller wound in right temple. Crescent shaped, flapped down
(3")
(approx 2) Small shrapnel wounds in face. Packed with wax.
* SHOTS ARE FIRED AT THE MOTORCADE
At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze;
his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head
moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based
on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind
the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe
external stimulus. (HSCA)
Gerry Patrick Hemming states: "The one thing we do know is none of the
[assassination] teams knew the existence of the others ...when they heard
the shots, they would flinch because they weren't sure that they'd been
spotted and somebody was trying to take them out. ... you can put a smile
on the shooter's face because then he realizes that it's a super-pro job
and there are backup and decoy teams and that's where those shots are
coming from. Silencers were used extensively. These were sonic silencers
purchased through Mitchell Werbell." BT
On hearing the first burst of firing, Sheriff Bill Decker glances back and
thinks he sees a bullet bouncing off the street pavement. Motorcycle
officer, Starvis Ellis also will testify he sees a bullet hit the
pavement. (Neither Decker nor Ellis will ever be questioned about this by
the Warren Commission.) Motorcycle officer James Chaney will also tell
newsmen this day that the first shot missed. It is suggested that JFK is
hit by small pieces of the street pavement, and stops waving for a moment.
John McAdams
wrote:
1.) It's "Stavis" Ellis.
2.) Don't bother citing Hemming. He has no credibility.
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
claviger
I called the Sixth Floor Museum today and asked about bullet marks on the
pavement. Here is their response:
1. No bullet mark was ever found on Elm Street. A newspaper reporter named
Earl Golds thought he found a bullet mark on the sidewalk and eventually
had a core taken around the the mark and removed with permission from the
City of Dallas. The core was analysed and the mark was found to be a strip
of cloth that had dropped in the wet cement when the sidewalk was first
poured sometime in the 1930s. To the Museum the story of a bullet mark
somewhere on Elm Street being covered up by a maintenance crew falls under
the category of an "urban legend."
2. A bullet mark on the curb near James Tague was eventually sawed out and
removed as evidence. It is now kept in the National Archives and analysis
confirms their is a lead smear on the mark. Also, Tague did not even know
his cheek was cut until a policeman asked him about it.
tomnln
sidewalk of Elm Street.
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1192502598....@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
claviger
>
> read more »
More info on Stavis Ellis:
Stavis "Steve" Ellis
[1] The name Stavis has been a curiosity to a number of researchers,
including
the author. Sergeant Ellis's father was a Greek immigrant who entered
Ellis ...
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/JFK/history/the_deed/Sneed/Ellis.html
Anthony Marsh
Not what I asked for. I asked for a quote about someone thinking it was
smoke from a firecracker. Did you find that?
Anthony Marsh
> THIS MAY BE A DOUBLE POST...MY WEBTV CRASHED JUST WHEN I TRIED TO SUBMIT
> THIS EARLIER....SO I'M SENDING IT AGAIN.
>
>>> HSCA agreed with Humes that the semicircular beveled defect seen in F8 was
>>> ****THE****, as in singular, ENTRY......they just disagreed on the
>>> location of that defect.....the HSCA agreeing with the Clark Panel on it
>>> being appx. 4 inches above the EOP and Humes saying it was only slightly
>>> above the EOP.
>>>
>> Where is this imaginary semi-circular entrance? >Show it to me.
>
> I'm not a miracle worker...I can't make you see what you don't want to
> see.
>
> And the reason you don't want to see the entry, that everyone else I know
> of CAN see, is because, if you admitted that you CAN see it, you'd also be
> admitting your dumb "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory was, er...dumb.
>
You can't even admit to the semi-circular defect in the frontal bone
that Dr. Angel thinks is THE exit wound.
robc...@netscape.com
> Actually!
>
> The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
> of the head by two separate bullets.
>
> evidence either!
What medical evidence are you refering to? The autoposy photographs have
been shown to be faked by many sources but check out High Treason and High
Treason 2 for the most details regarding the matte lines on the photos.
You also have the entire staff at Parkland who said the back of his head
was missing. It depends on who you look to for providing the evidence.
John Canal
robc...@netscape.com says...
>
>
>> Actually!
>>
>> The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>> of the head by two separate bullets.
>>
>> Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>> evidence either!
>
>What medical evidence are you refering to? The autoposy photographs have
>been shown to be faked by many sources but check out High Treason and High
>Treason 2 for the most details regarding the matte lines on the photos.
How did those doctoring the photos do their magic on all the B & W and
color prints too? All but impossible to pull under those circumstances,
IMO.
Most who feel that the photos were faked speak to precisely what you did,
i.e. the inconsistency between what the PH witnesses said (large BOH
wound) and what the BOH photos show (no large BOH wound).
The explanation is that the BOH photo was not taken when the body was
first received, but much later in the autopsy for the purpose of
demonstrating the entry hole in the scalp...and it did that. Now, had a
photo been taken from the same perspective as soon as the body was
received from Dallas, IMO, we would have seen a large BOH wound....and
that begs the question: what happened to that large BOH wound.
First, while the rear skull was shattered by the bullet fired from the SN
hitting him in the BOH, no rear bone was missing. Undoubtedly, however, at
least one of those loose rear pieces moved out of position, and because of
the explosiveness of the temporary cavity a good deal of brain tissue made
its way out that opening by the time he was wheeled into TR1.
Of course, that would have required a tear in the scalp in additon to any
piece/s of rear skull being moved....and there surely was a tear there. In
fact, look at the BOH photos and you'll see a what appears to be a tear
exending anteriorly from the entry. Boswell testified to the ARRB that a
large laceration extended from the occipital to the frontal.....he was
talking about that same tear.
John Canal
John McAdams
When you cite the Livingstone books, you are citing a quack who has no
expertise in photo analysis.
Want to know what real experts believe?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/autopsy1.txt
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/fakeda.txt
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/autopsy2.txt
.John
--
Anthony Marsh
> In article <1192556625.7...@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> robc...@netscape.com says...
>>
>>> Actually!
>>>
>>> The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>>> of the head by two separate bullets.
>>>
>>> Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>>> evidence either!
>> What medical evidence are you refering to? The autoposy photographs have
>> been shown to be faked by many sources but check out High Treason and High
>> Treason 2 for the most details regarding the matte lines on the photos.
>
> How did those doctoring the photos do their magic on all the B & W and
> color prints too? All but impossible to pull under those circumstances,
> IMO.
>
> Most who feel that the photos were faked speak to precisely what you did,
> i.e. the inconsistency between what the PH witnesses said (large BOH
> wound) and what the BOH photos show (no large BOH wound).
>
> The explanation is that the BOH photo was not taken when the body was
> first received, but much later in the autopsy for the purpose of
> demonstrating the entry hole in the scalp...and it did that. Now, had a
It does not show ANY hole in the scalp. Show me this hole in the photo.
Anthony Marsh
>> Actually!
>>
>> The medical evidence fully demonsrates that JFK was struck in the rear
>> of the head by two separate bullets.
>>
>> Thusly, I would take it that you do not understand the medical
>> evidence either!
>
> What medical evidence are you refering to? The autoposy photographs have
> been shown to be faked by many sources but check out High Treason and High
> Treason 2 for the most details regarding the matte lines on the photos.
Those sources are unreliable. And even Robert Groden who used to think
that changed his opinion when he worked for the HSCA and saw their
analysis.
> You also have the entire staff at Parkland who said the back of his head
> was missing. It depends on who you look to for providing the evidence.
Not quite.
tomnln
"John Canal" <John_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:ff3pi...@drn.newsguy.com...
tomnln
http://whokilledjfk.net/horne__report.htm
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:471575ad...@news.newsguy.com...
tomnln
That Report proves you Wrong Marsh.
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:0NudnXYJh7pliYva...@comcast.com...
Brokedad
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> > Time/Life, with availability of the original Z-film, on 11/26/63,
> > determined that the first shot was fired just as JFK passed the
> > leading edge of the Stemmons Road Sign. This fortunately, is "first
> > source" information.
>
> > Based on the surveyed position, transposed to the much larger WC
> > Survey Plat, this position equates to approximately the Z204/206
> > location.
> > of frames 209/210/ & 211, when one computes the approximate time/
> > distance factor for the sound to have reached Zapruder.
>
> > poor and would not qualify as a "legal survey".
> > Due to a variety of problems with this work, attempting to transpose
> > this data to the considerably larger and more accurate WC survey plat,
> > has it's limitations to accuracy.
>
> > The SS as well as the FBI determined that JFK was fully struck by and
> > reacting to the impact of the first shot at what would be
> > approximately Z212/214.
>
> > both ( SS & FBI) separately confirmed this in two separate survey's
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> odd jump. It also was in virtual sync with JFK's springing arms and JBC's
> springing right arm. I believe the jump at Z227 to be Zapruder's startle
> reaction to hearing the first shot.
>
> I believe the LN consensus, missed first shot, needs to be re- evaluated.
>
> ***Ron Judge- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
1. Even were one to have access to the absolutely original Zapruder
film, the "blur/Jiggle" analysis is merely a substantive indicator.
2. The witness testimonies clearly establish that the first shot
struck JFK and he was seen reacting to it. The US Secret Service as
well as the FBI, established this reaction as being at some point from
the Z204/206 point at which JFK begins to disappear behind the
Stemmons sign, and that point at approximately Z212/214.
3. The witness testimonies clearly establish that the headshot at
Z313 was the SECOND SHOT in the shooting sequence, as well as
establishing the impact to the head of JFK, of which the Z-film
clearly shows.
4. The witness testimonies clearly establish to approximate location
of the Presidential Limo at the time of the third/last/final shot.
And, this location was considerably farther down Elm St. from that
point of the Z313 impact.
5. James Altgens clearly states of haveing observed the result of the
impact to the head of JFK by the LAST shot fired.
6. Nellie Connally clearly states of having observed as well as felt
the cerebral tissue of JFK being blown all over her and JBC from the
LAST SHOT fired, which she also clearly states that JBC was down
laying across the seats with his head in her lap at the time of this
shot.
Rest assured! There is nothing difficult in resolving exactly where
each shot was fired, as well as exactly who these shots impacted upon.
Thankfully, I was never under some misconception that even the worst
shot in the USMC could not hit a slow moving target at ranges which
did not exceed 98 yards.
And, since LHO was a relatively good to excellent shot, I most
assuredly never believed the WC's "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".
Brokedad
Me, You, and the CIA!
Confusing people with the facts!
Tom
P.S. Not unlike the great majority of information, there is little
that is complicated in regards to the events of the actual
assassination, as well as the medical evidence.
To include how Humes & Boswell (Finck had not arrived yet) missed the
"Cowlick" entry through the skull.
Brokedad
> In article <1192357919.076195.229...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
Brokedad
> In article <1192359724.257925.64...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm
Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound,
right here.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the
right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hopefully, one would not be so lacking in understanding of human
anatomy that they would confuse a point which is at the lowere edge of
the hairline, and immediately to the right of the lower third of the
ear, with a point which is almost in the top center of the head
(cowlick area).
And rest assured, I am not making reference to Roy Kellerman!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md20/html/Image03.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Now!
It is hardly my fault if you can not resolve the pathological fact
that the entrance wound through the SCALP of JFK, which the autopsy
surgeons located, was BELOW the EOP, and that the actual entrance
wound through the skull of JFK was ABOVE the EOP.
Most decent anatomy books will thoroughly explain the difference
between SCALP and SKULL, as they represent completely separate parts
of the human anatomy.
"Dr. Petty- Then this is the entrance wound. The one down by the
margin of the hair in the back."
"Dr. Humes- Yes, sir."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Now! If one will take the time and effort to go back and review the
medical information, they will find that the shot to the head, which
the autopsy surgeons all saw, (to include Roy Kellerman), entered the
rear of the head through the scalp at a point which was at the lower
edge of the hairline at the base of the skull.
Thereafter, the bullet traversed through the soft flesh at the base of
the neck (upwards when the head is held erect), to penetrate the skull
2.5cm right and slightly above the EOP.
In addition to this oblique angle of entry, the bullet left a
completely tell-tale "oblique/acute" angle of penetration through the
skull of JFK in what would be an upwards direction (were the head in a
vertical position at the time of impact).
---------------------------------------------------------------
There exists a bullet penetration through the skull of JFK in the
vicinity of the "Cowlick", as is readily determinable by review of the
available anterior/posterior X-ray.
Penetration through the scalp for this entry point is also readily
determinable from the autopsy photographs, and is also located in the
cowlick area of the skull.
The HSCA determined that this bullet penetration location WAS NOT
where the three autopsy surgeons reported having observed the entrance
into the skull which they observed, and the entrance wound throught
the skull, according to the HSCA Medical Panel, did not match in
measurements, those measurements which the three autopsy surgeons
measured for the entrance wound which they located.
Some 10cm/4-inches below the HSCA determined entrance wound (the
cowlick entry), the three autopsy surgeons (as well as others present)
observed the bullet entrance through the scalp at the rear of JFK's
head. This entrance location was at the edge of the hairline, and
approximately even with the lower one-third of the ear lobe.
The bullet pathway thereafter passed through the soft tissuej of the
neck (on what would be an upward position, were the head held erect),
and thereafter struck the skull 2.5cm and slightly above the EOP, and
in so doing created an extremely acute angle of penetration through
the skull.
The EOP entry being some 4-inches lower than the Cowlick entry, as
well as having completely different measurements for the angle of
penetration through the skull.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Time to bring in the Kindergarden students, who for the most part, can
easily figure this one out!
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
The "Cowlick" entry was caused by that impact of the SECOND SHOT
FIRED, as is clearly observed in the Zapruder film at approximately
(purported) frame# Z313.
The "EOP" entry was caused by the impact of the THIRD/LAST/FINAL SHOT
FIRED, which was that impact in which the Presidential Limo was down
in front of James Altgens position, and which impact James Altgens
observed to the head of JFK, and which impact also blew cerebral
tissue forward, all over Nellie Connally & JBC.
And, which impact occured only afyter JBC was fully down in the seats
with his head in Nellie Connally's lap, thus exposing his right
shoulder to the bullet after it had passed through the head of JFK.
Lastly!
Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear!
claviger
> "I doubt that anyone said there was smoke from a firecracker. Can you
> cite and quote such testimony?"
>
> These witnesses saw a shot hit the pavement beside the limousine:
>
> JFK assassination witnesses
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wit.htm
>
> Mrs. Donald Baker
>
> Royce Skelton
>
> Harry D. Holmes
>
> Warren Taylor
>
> Not what I asked for. I asked for a quote about someone thinking it was
> smoke from a firecracker. Did you find that?
Mrs. Donald Baker_______________________________
Mrs. BAKER. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I
thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the
pavement.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is
that right?
Mrs. BAKER. Yes.
...................................................................
Mrs. BAKER. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked
just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a
firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get
in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down
below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.
Royce Skelton__________________________________
Mr. BALL. Did the shots sound like they came from where you were
standing?
Mr. SKELTON. No, sir; definitely not. It sounded like they were right
there more or less like motorcycle backfire, but I thought that they
were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because I could see
the smoke coming up off the cement.
Mr. BALL. You saw some smoke come off of the cement?
Mr. SKELTON. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what
direction?
Mr. SKELTON. Towards the President's car.
Harry D. Holmes________________________________
Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the
motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm
where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass.
As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me
sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were
three of them. I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car
all the time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were
dodging somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or
something, but I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in
the air.
Warren Taylor__________________________________
Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are
unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible
firecracker--the sound coming from my right rear. Out of the corner of my
eye and off slightly to the right rear of our car, I noticed what now
seems to me might have been a short piece of streamer flying in the air
close to the ground, but due to the confusion of the moment, I thought
that it was a firecracker going off.
John Canal
>
>John Canal wrote:
>> THIS MAY BE A DOUBLE POST...MY WEBTV CRASHED JUST WHEN I TRIED TO SUBMIT
>> THIS EARLIER....SO I'M SENDING IT AGAIN.
>>
>>>> HSCA agreed with Humes that the semicircular beveled defect seen in F8 was
>>>> ****THE****, as in singular, ENTRY......they just disagreed on the
>>>> location of that defect.....the HSCA agreeing with the Clark Panel on it
>>>> being appx. 4 inches above the EOP and Humes saying it was only slightly
>>>> above the EOP.
>>>>
>>> Where is this imaginary semi-circular entrance? >Show it to me.
>>
>> I'm not a miracle worker...I can't make you see what you don't want to
>> see.
>>
>> And the reason you don't want to see the entry, that everyone else I know
>> of CAN see, is because, if you admitted that you CAN see it, you'd also be
>> admitting your dumb "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory was, er...dumb.
>>
>
>You can't even admit to the semi-circular defect in the frontal bone
>that Dr. Angel thinks is THE exit wound.
Earth to Anthony...now hear this. Angel was not the only one who
mistakenly called your semicircular defect in the frontal bone an exit.
Artwohl, Baden, and Sturdivan did as well.there probably were more. Inany
case, the reason they made that mistake is that they never saw the
body...only the photos....and, yes, that defect does look like a bullet
wound...photographically, anyway. But it's not a bullet wound. indeed, no
one who saw the body mentioned that defect was caused by a bullet.
Also, look at the blow-up of that defect...it surely doesn't look like it
was caused by a bullet in that pic.
Now, I know your silly comeback...HB&F were so incompetent they missed
seeing your defect. That's what I call a desperate attempt to save a
sinking theory...give it up and be real, why don't you.
John Canal
John Canal
says...
>
>On Oct 14, 11:19?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> In article <1192359724.257925.64...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>> says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Oct 13, 9:25?pm, John Canal
<TOP POST>
ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
1. The autopsy doctors stated in ***their report*** (read it) the hole in
the scalp corresponded with the hole in the skull. For God's sake doesn't
that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
2. Zimmerman and Sturdvan examined the originals and stated that they
could see a blue color showing through BOTH THE HOLE IN THE SCALP AND THE
HOLE IN THE SKULL....WHICH IS ALSO WHAT HUMES SAID. For God's sake doesn't
that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
3. And, BTW, how does a bullet shoot up under the scalpan then make a
dramatic tunr to enter the skull...could you post a blow-up type graphic
for me on that?
4. And how on earth do over a dozen forensic pathologists, who examined
either the body or the originals, conclude there was only one entry to the
BOH....and you, who have seen neither, come on like God's gift to the
resolution of every issue in this case, aying there were two hits to the
BOH??????????????????
One thing's for sure. you've got nerve.
John Canal
Brokedad
>
> "Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear"
>
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11215&pid=123069&st=45&#entry123069entry123069
Post #53
Antti (& any others);
I am currently in argument with one of the so-called greats of the
medical evidence on another talk show, and since this has more or less
been my home for the longest time, then it would be supposed that it
should be explained here.
1. Many think there is confusion on the part of Dr. Humes/Boswell/
Finck in locating the entrance wound into the back of the head of
JFK. (Above the EOP/Below the EOP)
Actually, not unlike most of the other evidence, the confusion lies in
those who are not listening to what is stated.
The entry point through the SCALP was at the lower edge of the
hairline at the back of the neck/base of the skull of JFK, and was
BELOW the level of the EOP.
The bullet tunnelled through the soft tissue at the base of the neck,
to strike the skull ABOVE the EOP.
NOW!
Were JFK sitting in an erect position (as he is at Z313) and such a
bullet impact struck on a downward firing angle of approximately 15-
degrees downward, then it would be physically impossible for that
bullet to have immediately, upon impact, to have turned upwards on an
angle which would have taken it through the soft tissue at the base of
the skull, to ultimately impact with the skull in the EOP vicinity.
So!
1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at
the junction of where the collar turns down.
Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of
impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and
although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes
are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.
2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere
edge of the hairline.
3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact,
leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly
turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/
horizontal-downward position.
4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the
base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the
soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the
vicinity of the EOP.
5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of
JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull
on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat
and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.
Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction
of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was
made.
When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:
Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue
of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above
EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe
of brain---------------
Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the
trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or
else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of
impact of this bullet.
[b]I do find your take here to be quite sound. A few follow-up
questions, since you say there were two shots to the head, and the
second shot to the head (the final shot) occurred at James Altgens
position, what film, or photo would have captured this event? Can you
give an approximate Zapruder film frame or other?[/b]
Not unlike other things in the Zapruder film that one will not see,
they will not see the impact of this, the final shot.
However, one may want to take a close look at:
http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg
(as well as those frames on each side of Z341)
As well as questioning exactly why the "Sprocket Holes" have the same
demonstrated problem as those once missing frames of the film in the
Z210 range.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm
Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which
would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--
about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side
that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.
Mr. ALTGENS - I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had
prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it
happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.
Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the
President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time
that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of
celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me
so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that
I was hoping to make.
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from
behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as
he was struck
There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my
direction from where I was standing,
And, as Mr. Paul Harvey once stated: "Now, you know the rest of the
story".
At least as to why Jackie determined it prudent to vacate the
Limosine!
[b]Can you show supporting evidence for your claim? I would refer to
their testimonies and the Zapruder film, which both indicate to me,
that John Connally was already seriously wounded at the time that his
wife pulled him down, and out of the line of fire.[/b]
JBC suffered a broken wrist from impact of a bullet fragment from the
Z313 headshot at the time that he went over into Nellie's side of the
car with his head in her lap.
Nellie did not "pull him down", she merely grabbed JBC when he went
into her direction and held onto him after he went over into her
direction and began slumping down into the seat.
Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was
him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband
was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the
right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over
to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The
jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he
slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over
into my lap, which he did not.
I just pulled him over into my arms
And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat.
I thought he was dead. When you see a big man totally defenseless like
that, then you do whatever you think you can do to help most and the
only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line
of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get
him down, maybe they wouldn't hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down
in my lap.
We learned later--I read a lot of stories that upset me later because
they said we slipped down into the floor, that John slid off, fell
over into my lap. Those little jump seats were not very big and there
was no way that he could have slid to the floor, there is no way
either of us could have got to the floor.
The only thing I could do was pull him down and by leaning over him, I
hoped if anything else happened, they wouldn't hurt him anymore. I
never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they
have shot my husband."
[b]and out of the line of fire.[/b][/b]
NOPE!
When JBC went over/down across the seats with his head in Nellie's
lap, he exposed his back and right shoulder to the bullet which exited
the head of JFK (aka the third/last/final shot).
When this bullet exited:
Mrs. CONNALLY- The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent
buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see
that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter,
all over the car and both of us.
MR. Altgens - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of
his head in my direction from where I was standing,
Thus, JBC in fact went over/was partially pulled down, directly into
the line of fire for the bullet as it traversed through the mid-brain
of JFK, exited the skull in the frontal lobe, and thereafter struck
JBC in the shoulder which was exposed across the open area between the
jump seats where JBC & Nellie were located.
And, as Mr. Paul Harvey stated: "And, now you know the rest of the
story". as regards the WHY that JBC's coat had to be laundered prior
to being examined.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm
Mr. FRAZIER - It is different in that the President's clothing had not
been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However,
the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.
Sitting upright in the jump seat at Z313, it was physically impossible
for cerebral tissue from the head of JFK to have splattered all over
the back side of the coat worn by JBC.
However, when leaning across the open area between the jump seats with
his back and shoulder exposed, at the time of the third/last/final
shot impact, which also blew cerebral tissue forward in the limosine,
the entire backside of JBC's coat would have been covered with blood/
cerebral tissue.
One would have thought that some of these "Blood Splatter" experts
would have taken the time to have figured this one out also.
Tom
Anthony Marsh
> In article <1192713274....@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
> says...
>> On Oct 14, 11:19?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>> In article <1192359724.257925.64...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>>> says...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 13, 9:25?pm, John Canal
>
> <TOP POST>
>
> ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
>
> 1. The autopsy doctors stated in ***their report*** (read it) the hole in
> the scalp corresponded with the hole in the skull. For God's sake doesn't
> that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
>
Show me this hole on the scalp.
> 2. Zimmerman and Sturdvan examined the originals and stated that they
> could see a blue color showing through BOTH THE HOLE IN THE SCALP AND THE
> HOLE IN THE SKULL....WHICH IS ALSO WHAT HUMES SAID. For God's sake doesn't
> that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
>
No, they did not see any hole. There is no hole.
> 3. And, BTW, how does a bullet shoot up under the scalpan then make a
> dramatic tunr to enter the skull...could you post a blow-up type graphic
> for me on that?
>
Bullets can do strange things. I think it was Artwohl who found a case
of a bullet entering the scalp, then going around the skull and exiting
the scalp close to the entrance without ever penetrating the skull.
> 4. And how on earth do over a dozen forensic pathologists, who examined
> either the body or the originals, conclude there was only one entry to the
> BOH....and you, who have seen neither, come on like God's gift to the
> resolution of every issue in this case, aying there were two hits to the
> BOH??????????????????
>
They HAD to, or else admit conspiracy.
Anthony Marsh
> In article <e9SdneNA6qegTYna...@comcast.com>, Anthony Marsh says...
>> John Canal wrote:
>>> THIS MAY BE A DOUBLE POST...MY WEBTV CRASHED JUST WHEN I TRIED TO SUBMIT
>>> THIS EARLIER....SO I'M SENDING IT AGAIN.
>>>
>>>>> HSCA agreed with Humes that the semicircular beveled defect seen in F8 was
>>>>> ****THE****, as in singular, ENTRY......they just disagreed on the
>>>>> location of that defect.....the HSCA agreeing with the Clark Panel on it
>>>>> being appx. 4 inches above the EOP and Humes saying it was only slightly
>>>>> above the EOP.
>>>>>
>>>> Where is this imaginary semi-circular entrance? >Show it to me.
>>> I'm not a miracle worker...I can't make you see what you don't want to
>>> see.
>>>
>>> And the reason you don't want to see the entry, that everyone else I know
>>> of CAN see, is because, if you admitted that you CAN see it, you'd also be
>>> admitting your dumb "no-hits-to-the-BOH" theory was, er...dumb.
>>>
>> You can't even admit to the semi-circular defect in the frontal bone
>> that Dr. Angel thinks is THE exit wound.
>
> Earth to Anthony...now hear this. Angel was not the only one who
> mistakenly called your semicircular defect in the frontal bone an exit.
> Artwohl, Baden, and Sturdivan did as well.there probably were more. Inany
No, Baden thinks the semi-circular defect is on the coronal suture. He
rejected Angel.
Again, you can't even admit that the semi-circular defect exists on the
frontal bone.
> case, the reason they made that mistake is that they never saw the
> body...only the photos....and, yes, that defect does look like a bullet
> wound...photographically, anyway. But it's not a bullet wound. indeed, no
> one who saw the body mentioned that defect was caused by a bullet.
>
So, you say it isn't a bullet wound. Then what is it? Are you claiming
that JFK was born that way?
> Also, look at the blow-up of that defect...it surely doesn't look like it
> was caused by a bullet in that pic.
>
Of course it does, including the beveling on the outer table, which is
why the HSCA FPP thought it was an exit wound.
> Now, I know your silly comeback...HB&F were so incompetent they missed
> seeing your defect. That's what I call a desperate attempt to save a
> sinking theory...give it up and be real, why don't you.
>
Show me anything where HB&F remarked on it.
> John Canal
Anthony Marsh
OK, so you mean that dumbballs are firecrackers and he thought that was
smoke from a firecracker?
> Harry D. Holmes________________________________
>
> Mr. HOLMES. To Elm is really not more than a good full block, but the
> motorcade turned north on Houston and went to Elm and turned left on Elm
> where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass.
> As it turned in front of the School Book Depository, I heard what to me
> sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were
> three of them. I had my binoculars on this car, on the Presidential car
> all the time. I realized something was wrong, but I thought they were
> dodging somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or
> something, but I did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in
> the air.
>
>
Dust is not smoke.
>
> Warren Taylor__________________________________
>
> Our automobile had just turned a corner (the names of the streets are
> unknown to me) when I heard a bang which sounded to me like a possible
> firecracker--the sound coming from my right rear. Out of the corner of my
> eye and off slightly to the right rear of our car, I noticed what now
> seems to me might have been a short piece of streamer flying in the air
> close to the ground, but due to the confusion of the moment, I thought
> that it was a firecracker going off.
>
>
No smoke. And the only smoke you found was on the pavement, no wafting
from the grassy knoll.
>
>
John Canal
>
>John Canal wrote:
>> In article <1192713274....@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>> says...
>>> On Oct 14, 11:19?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <1192359724.257925.64...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>>>> says...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 13, 9:25?pm, John Canal
>>
>> <TOP POST>
>>
>> ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
>>
>> 1. The autopsy doctors stated in ***their report*** (read it) the hole in
>> the scalp corresponded with the hole in the skull. For God's sake doesn't
>> that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
>>
>
>Show me this hole on the scalp.
Anthony, you're so much in a hurry to submit your usual, what 30 posts a
day (?), that you don't take the time to consider what the person you're
replying to is saying. Now..s-l-o-w-l-y: The autopsy docs stated that in
their report.....how on earth am I supposed to how you what they said they
saw...exume the body?
>> 2. Zimmerman and Sturdvan examined the originals and stated that they
>> could see a blue color showing through BOTH THE HOLE IN THE SCALP AND THE
>> HOLE IN THE SKULL....WHICH IS ALSO WHAT HUMES SAID. For God's sake doesn't
>> that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
>>
>
>No, they did not see any hole. There is no hole.
Oh, you were there? One learns something new about this case every day. So
they were lying, eh? Was there anyone involved with collecting evidence in
this case that wasn't a liar, totally incompetent, or have the
intelligence of a 2nd grader...in your highly respected opinion?
>> 3. And, BTW, how does a bullet shoot up under the scalpan then make a
>> dramatic tunr to enter the skull...could you post a blow-up type graphic
>> for me on that?
>>
>
>Bullets can do strange things. I think it was Artwohl who found a case
>of a bullet entering the scalp, then going around the skull and exiting
>the scalp close to the entrance without ever penetrating the skull.
I don't think Purvis is up to it, so how about you posting a diagram of such a
bullet track as it could apply to JFK's wounds?
>> 4. And how on earth do over a dozen forensic pathologists, who examined
>> either the body or the originals, conclude there was only one entry to the
>> BOH....and you, who have seen neither, come on like God's gift to the
>> resolution of every issue in this case, aying there were two hits to the
>> BOH??????????????????
>>
>
>They HAD to, or else admit conspiracy.
Of course....ya, right.
John Canal
Anthony Marsh
When they use the word "this" what object do you think they are talking
about? It can not be a hole. There was no hole near the hairline. The only
thing close is a dab of tissue. Dr. Robert Artwohl thinks it is not brain,
but fat tissue as it looks yellowish.
I think that Humes saw the dab of tissue and assumed it was brain tissue
oozing out of the head through the entrance wound.
But the HSCA analyzed it and found that the dab of tissue was on top of
the hair.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Now! If one will take the time and effort to go back and review the
> medical information, they will find that the shot to the head, which
> the autopsy surgeons all saw, (to include Roy Kellerman), entered the
> rear of the head through the scalp at a point which was at the lower
> edge of the hairline at the base of the skull.
> Thereafter, the bullet traversed through the soft flesh at the base of
> the neck (upwards when the head is held erect), to penetrate the skull
> 2.5cm right and slightly above the EOP.
There is no hole there.
> In addition to this oblique angle of entry, the bullet left a
> completely tell-tale "oblique/acute" angle of penetration through the
> skull of JFK in what would be an upwards direction (were the head in a
> vertical position at the time of impact).
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> There exists a bullet penetration through the skull of JFK in the
> vicinity of the "Cowlick", as is readily determinable by review of the
> available anterior/posterior X-ray.
> Penetration through the scalp for this entry point is also readily
> determinable from the autopsy photographs, and is also located in the
> cowlick area of the skull.
No hole.
Do not rely on distorting witness statements the way Robert Harris did.
> And, which impact occured only afyter JBC was fully down in the seats
> with his head in Nellie Connally's lap, thus exposing his right
> shoulder to the bullet after it had passed through the head of JFK.
>
Connally was hit in the back BEFORE the head shot.
Anthony Marsh
Again, show me where the SS and FBI specified frames 204-206. Is that in
a report or a memo?
> 3. The witness testimonies clearly establish that the headshot at
> Z313 was the SECOND SHOT in the shooting sequence, as well as
> establishing the impact to the head of JFK, of which the Z-film
> clearly shows.
>
No. Connally said that HE was hit by the second bullet. He should know.
He was there. He was the person hit. You were not there. You were not hit.
> 4. The witness testimonies clearly establish to approximate location
> of the Presidential Limo at the time of the third/last/final shot.
> And, this location was considerably farther down Elm St. from that
> point of the Z313 impact.
>
Specify your frame and give the Cartesian coordinates.
> 5. James Altgens clearly states of haveing observed the result of the
> impact to the head of JFK by the LAST shot fired.
>
> 6. Nellie Connally clearly states of having observed as well as felt
> the cerebral tissue of JFK being blown all over her and JBC from the
> LAST SHOT fired, which she also clearly states that JBC was down
> laying across the seats with his head in her lap at the time of this
> shot.
>
>
> Rest assured! There is nothing difficult in resolving exactly where
> each shot was fired, as well as exactly who these shots impacted upon.
>
Then plot those locations on the HSCA map if you think it is so easy.
> Thankfully, I was never under some misconception that even the worst
> shot in the USMC could not hit a slow moving target at ranges which
> did not exceed 98 yards.
>
> And, since LHO was a relatively good to excellent shot, I most
> assuredly never believed the WC's "THE SHOT THAT MISSED".
>
What about the Magic Twig Theory or the light pole theory?
>
>
Brokedad
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=11215&st=45&gopid=123401&#entry123401
Post #57
The "EOP" entry was caused by the impact of the THIRD/LAST/FINAL SHOT
> FIRED, which was that impact in which the Presidential Limo was down
> in front of James Altgens position, and which impact James Altgens
> observed to the head of JFK, and which impact also blew cerebral
> tissue forward, all over Nellie Connally & JBC.
And, for Mr. Von Pein:
This, the third/last/final shot, is the bullet which went through the
coat of JFK at the edge of the collar, on the same acute/oblique angle
at which the bullet struck JFK.
After having passed through the coat, the bullet struck JFK at the
edge of the hairline of the neck, and thereafter passed through the
soft tissue of the neck to ultimately strike the skull 2.5cm right and
slightly above the EOP.
Did you truly believe that it was a mere coincidence that there was an
oblique penetration through the coat and liner of JFK's coat, which
was in direct alignment with the edge of the hairline entry point into
JFK's head which was caused by a bullet.
Or, not unlike many others, did you merely not read the WC testimonies
and bother to take the time to follow up on the evidence?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to
have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to
the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a
defect, one margin of which is semicircular.
Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Von Pein! You most assuredly are not that "sharp" if you let
Specter & Company pull this one over on you!
"THE SHOT THAT MISSED"---------------did not miss!
Anthony Marsh
> In article <x5ydnZNHcNYBI4Xa...@comcast.com>, Anthony Marsh says...
>> John Canal wrote:
>>> In article <1192713274....@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>>> says...
>>>> On Oct 14, 11:19?pm, John Canal <John_mem...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <1192359724.257925.64...@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com>, Brokedad
>>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 13, 9:25?pm, John Canal
>>> <TOP POST>
>>>
>>> ABSOLUTE NONSENSE.
>>>
>>> 1. The autopsy doctors stated in ***their report*** (read it) the hole in
>>> the scalp corresponded with the hole in the skull. For God's sake doesn't
>>> that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
>>>
>> Show me this hole on the scalp.
>
> Anthony, you're so much in a hurry to submit your usual, what 30 posts a
> day (?), that you don't take the time to consider what the person you're
> replying to is saying. Now..s-l-o-w-l-y: The autopsy docs stated that in
> their report.....how on earth am I supposed to how you what they said they
> saw...exume the body?
>
I did not ask you to recite their lies. I asked YOU to show me this
hole. There is no hole.
>>> 2. Zimmerman and Sturdvan examined the originals and stated that they
>>> could see a blue color showing through BOTH THE HOLE IN THE SCALP AND THE
>>> HOLE IN THE SKULL....WHICH IS ALSO WHAT HUMES SAID. For God's sake doesn't
>>> that count for anything with you? Ya, I know, "NO" it doesn't. Sad.
>>>
>> No, they did not see any hole. There is no hole.
>
> Oh, you were there? One learns something new about this case every day. So
> they were lying, eh? Was there anyone involved with collecting evidence in
> this case that wasn't a liar, totally incompetent, or have the
> intelligence of a 2nd grader...in your highly respected opinion?
You are asking a highly hypothetically question.
>
>>> 3. And, BTW, how does a bullet shoot up under the scalpan then make a
>>> dramatic tunr to enter the skull...could you post a blow-up type graphic
>>> for me on that?
>>>
>> Bullets can do strange things. I think it was Artwohl who found a case
>> of a bullet entering the scalp, then going around the skull and exiting
>> the scalp close to the entrance without ever penetrating the skull.
>
> I don't think Purvis is up to it, so how about you posting a diagram of such a
> bullet track as it could apply to JFK's wounds?
>
Huh? Artwohl's example does not apply to JFK's wounds.