Unsolved Mysteries: Beyond The Magic Bullet - Critique on the final simulation
Gerry Simone (H)
SBT problem.
I've got two questions:
1) Prior to making the final experimental shot, they test fired thru the
two SOLID molds made from fibreglass resin. The mold dummies were
positioned as in the final experiment. The entrance hole in the JBC torso
is not elongated (they only commented that the entrance hole was slightly to
the left of the real location of the wound on Connally's back - they didn't
explain its roundness).
Why didn't the bullet from that preliminary test shot yaw after passing
through a solid block dummy representing JFK just before?
2) Then they conduct the test shot through the surrogate bodies (not the
solid molds).
The bullet exits both dummies and the wrist block but can't penetrate the
thigh block because the bullet strikes two ribs not just one, thereby
slowing it down to much.
Moreover, it doesn't shatter the simulated wrist or forearm bone within the
block even though it penetrates that gelatin wrist block
But that's a problem.
If CE-399 goes thru one rib and onwards thru Connally's wrist, how can it
end up in Connally's thigh just after going through two bones (the rib AND
wrist) which the Discovery Channel experiment proved was not possible (to
make matters worse, aren't a wrist + rib bones > two rib bones)?
Gerry Simone (O)
sentence of my post.
"Gerry Simone (H)" <newdec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45d7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Chad Zimmerman
> SBT problem.
>
> I've got two questions:
>
> 1) Prior to making the final experimental shot, they test fired thru the
> two SOLID molds made from fibreglass resin. The mold dummies were
> positioned as in the final experiment. The entrance hole in the JBC torso
> is not elongated (they only commented that the entrance hole was slightly
> to the left of the real location of the wound on Connally's back - they
> didn't explain its roundness).
Obviously that bullet didn't tumble. They don't always tumble. Lattimer's
mock neck shots had 4 of 5 tumble.
>
> Why didn't the bullet from that preliminary test shot yaw after passing
> through a solid block dummy representing JFK just before?
The bullet's long axis didn't destabilize in flight.
>
>
> 2) Then they conduct the test shot through the surrogate bodies (not the
> solid molds).
>
> The bullet exits both dummies and the wrist block but can't penetrate the
> thigh block because the bullet strikes two ribs not just one, thereby
> slowing it down to much.
>
> Moreover, it doesn't shatter the simulated wrist or forearm bone within
> the block even though it penetrates that gelatin wrist block
The wrist did break as per private emails with the producer. It didn't
*shatter* the bone, however.
>
> But that's a problem.
>
> If CE-399 goes thru one rib and onwards thru Connally's wrist, how can it
> end up in Connally's thigh just after going through two bones (the rib AND
> wrist) which the Discovery Channel experiment proved was not possible (to
> make matters worse, aren't a wrist + rib bones > two rib bones)?
Remember, the key here is velocity, as kinetic energy = 1/2 mass times
velocity squared.
Thus, reduction in velocity at the rib impact can severely impede any
further impact.
Chad
Gerry Simone (O)
I think I can answer my own question 2) but it raises another question :-)
This program shows that after hitting two rib bones, their test bullet
still had enough energy to penetrate the gelatin block that represented
Connally's forearm.
Even though no embedded wrist bones were shattered , the wrist block could
also represent Connally's thigh if we can substitute their second damaged
rib bone for a wrist bone, proving that after hitting two bones, the WCC
bullet had enough energy to embed itself into Connally's thigh and then
some (it still had enough energy to bounce off the thigh block and out
onto the ground).
The problem is that it easily passed right thru that gelatin wrist block
after going thru the second rib or bone.
Therefore, in the actual assassination, shouldn't CE 399 have gone deeper
into Connally's thigh (instead of through it since the real thigh is
thicker than the gelatin-wrist block) to sufficiently embed itself such
that it wouldn't simply come out on its own (and fall onto a stretcher)?
"Gerry Simone (H)" <newdec...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:45d7...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
jim....@fuse.net
wrote:
> I think I can answer my own question 2) but it raises another question :-)
>
> This program shows that after hitting two rib bones, their test bullet
> still had enough energy to penetrate the gelatin block that represented
> Connally's forearm.
>
> Even though no embedded wrist bones were shattered , the wrist block could
> also represent Connally's thigh if we can substitute their second damaged
> rib bone for a wrist bone, proving that after hitting two bones, the WCC
> bullet had enough energy to embed itself into Connally's thigh and then
> some (it still had enough energy to bounce off the thigh block and out
> onto the ground).
>
> The problem is that it easily passed right thru that gelatin wrist block
> after going thru the second rib or bone.
>
> Therefore, in the actual assassination, shouldn't CE 399 have gone deeper
> into Connally's thigh (instead of through it since the real thigh is
> thicker than the gelatin-wrist block) to sufficiently embed itself such
> that it wouldn't simply come out on its own (and fall onto a stretcher)?
>
>
> > This was an excellent experiment, but what it shows doesn't not solve the
> > SBT problem.
>
> > I've got two questions:
>
> > 1) Prior to making the final experimental shot, they test fired thru the
> > two SOLID molds made from fibreglass resin. The mold dummies were
> > positioned as in the final experiment. The entrance hole in the JBC torso
> > is not elongated (they only commented that the entrance hole was slightly to
> > the left of the real location of the wound on Connally's back - they didn't
> > explain its roundness).
>
> > Why didn't the bullet from that preliminary test shot yaw after passing
> > through a solid block dummy representing JFK just before?
>
> > 2) Then they conduct the test shot through the surrogate bodies (not the
> > solid molds).
>
> > The bullet exits both dummies and the wrist block but can't penetrate the
> > thigh block because the bullet strikes two ribs not just one, thereby
> > slowing it down to much.
>
> > Moreover, it doesn't shatter the simulated wrist or forearm bone within the
> > block even though it penetrates that gelatin wrist block
>
> > But that's a problem.
>
> > If CE-399 goes thru one rib and onwards thru Connally's wrist, how can it
> > end up in Connally's thigh just after going through two bones (the rib AND
> > wrist) which the Discovery Channel experiment proved was not possible (to
> > make matters worse, aren't a wrist + rib bones > two rib bones)?
I too was impressed by the meticulous preparation and by how
accurately the Australian LNers tried to replicate what actually
happened in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/63. However, one of the Discovery
Channel program's major malfunctions is the ASSUMPTION that the "Magic
Bullet" shot was the second shot. It has been proven on this forum
that JFK was hit in the neck with the first shot which was fired right
after Z186 and immediately before JFK goes behind the Stemmons sign at
Z 202 referenced the Zapruder frame and by Phil Willis' photo Number
5. Furthermore, the shot target on the back of the JFK torso was
inaccurately placed too high so the trajectory would come closer to
hitting the bullet wound in the front of JFK's neck. If they had not
have elevated the back shot target location to the inaccurate Gerald
Ford position, they KNEW the shot would not work. Even with that
higher placement the Australian team couldn't get the SBT to work! If
you look closely at the bullet emerging from the front of the JFK
torso you can readily see that IT EXITED WAY BELOW JFK's ACTUAL NECK
WOUND LOCATION. The Discovery Channel program does not show where the
shot exited the front of the JFK dummy torso neck because it exited in
the chest area BELOW JFK's ACTUAL NECK WOUND THAT DR. PERRY OBSERVED
at Parkland! Connally himself said he was not hit by the first shot
and did not hear the shot that hit him which happened after JFK was
hit in the neck. While the Discovery program was interesting the
disacterous result kills the SBT myth. According to Dr. Perry's first
hand observation at Parkland Hospital of the President's front of the
neck wound he observed some tearing and damage to the right side of
the 3rd tracheal ring. The Australian guys who made the dummy torsos
of JFK and Connally said that the Kennedy torso had a trachea in the
neck. But when their shot came out way below the front of the neck
wound they did not mention where their shot went nor if it hit the
trachea at all. All they wanted to talk about at that point was
Connally's wounds. Never-mind the angle through Kennedy was way off
which makes the Connally wounds useless. These guys on the Discovery
program did not come close to what actually happened in Dealey plaza.
If they had don't you think they would have shown us the front of the
neck wound AND the wound on the right side of the trachea? Why did
they hide that information? So when the shot through the Kennedy
dummy torso didn't work how can anyone presume the Connally wounds
were accurate? What the backers of the Discovery program want us to
do is ignore the Kennedy torso mistakes and focus on how accurate the
Connally torso part was. The only useful information to emerge from
the Discovery program was the empirical evidence that the SBT is still
just another unworkable THEORY in this murder case. Regards, Jim
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
>
***Firing from a crane platform, at 2 replica's placed close to what their
positions were at about the time an SBT shot would have occured, a bullet
was shot through both replicas. The bullet exiting the JFK replica struck
the JBC replica in the ribs on the right side of the torso.
The Australian team had one shot at one set of duplicates. The test
shoooter was firing from what was not the most stable of platforms, on the
extended arm of a crane. The rifleman was also using his his own ability
to aim the rifle, rather than the rifle being bolted in place, with the
rifle mechanically sighted and locked on the determined entrance point.
The test shooter missed the determined entrance wound, thus throwing off
the trajectory of the bullet through the other wound sites. Thus a near
perfect replication of JFK's non fatal wound did not occur.
Even though the bullet did not strike the JFK replica as the actual wounds
occured, the bullet still struck the JBC replica in the right rib cage.
I do not believe that the test proved the SB theory to be unworkable, as
the trajectory was not on correct alignment to strike the determined JFK
entrance wound. The test should simply be performed again, from a stable
platform and with the rifle locked into position, so that the bullet will
hit spot on.
***Ron Judge
Gerry Simone (O)
If they are as dense as styrafoam or a little more, that might not be
enough.
Wish they commented on it though.
Also, in my own follow-up herein, I concede that after hitting two rib
bones, it penetrated the wrist block which could be viewed alternatively,
as the thigh itself. So yes, you easily and correctly answered my
question. Thanks.
Yes, I think you're right that there was minimal damage to a wrist bone (I
wasn't sure but the CAT scan looked like it showed a crack from a
'glancing blow' perhaps) which makes sense in light of the bullet smashing
thru two rib bones just before instead of just one as was planned.
Thanks again.
"Chad Zimmerman" <doc...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:45d7bcb2$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Andrew Mason
I couldn't agree more. The first shot was around z200 - after z186 and
very close to z202. This is corroborated by Betzner, Phil Willis, Greer,
Brennan, Linda Willis, and TE Moore.
The evidence makes it abundantly clear that JFK was hit in the neck on the
first shot. That is all you really need to eliminate the second shot SBT.
Connally's evidence makes it hard to believe that he was hit in the back
on the first shot. That eliminates the first shot SBT (if the trajectory
doesn't eliminate it itself).
But it is a serious mistake to think that the demise of the SBT requires a
second shooter. In my view, this is a collossal mistake that the LNers
make (except me, and Caeruleo, LNers who think that JBC was hit much later
around z270). The shot pattern evidence 1........2....3 proves that there
was only one shot before z240. I put the shots at z200, z270, z313. It is
not only the shot pattern that shows this. It fits the evidence of Greer,
Powers, the Newells, Altgens, SA Kinney, SA Hickey and it fits the zfilm
perfectly.
Andrew Mason
Anthony Marsh
The throat wound was NOT an entrance wound. It was an exit wound.
Kennedy was struck in the back and that bullet exited his throat.
> inaccurately placed too high so the trajectory would come closer to
> hitting the bullet wound in the front of JFK's neck. If they had not
> have elevated the back shot target location to the inaccurate Gerald
> Ford position, they KNEW the shot would not work. Even with that
> higher placement the Australian team couldn't get the SBT to work! If
> you look closely at the bullet emerging from the front of the JFK
> torso you can readily see that IT EXITED WAY BELOW JFK's ACTUAL NECK
> WOUND LOCATION. The Discovery Channel program does not show where the
That proves that the bullet which hit Kennedy's back did not continue
downwards at 20 some degrees.
Herbert Blenner
wrote:
> This was an excellent experiment, but what it shows doesn't not solve the
> SBT problem.
>
> I've got two questions:
>
> 1) Prior to making the final experimental shot, they test fired thru the
> two SOLID molds made from fibreglass resin. The mold dummies were
> positioned as in the final experiment. The entrance hole in the JBC torso
> is not elongated (they only commented that the entrance hole was slightly to
> the left of the real location of the wound on Connally's back - they didn't
> explain its roundness).
>
> Why didn't the bullet from that preliminary test shot yaw after passing
> through a solid block dummy representing JFK just before?
A understanding of what imparts an active yaw to bullet is required to
answer your question. In short the block must contain a material that is
struck and not penetrated by the bullet. This requirement is similar to a
bullet that grazes without breaking a bone while smashing softer tissues.
So by designing a sold block devoid of internal structures the showmen
biased the outcome of their so-called experiment.
>
> 2) Then they conduct the test shot through the surrogate bodies (not the
> solid molds).
>
> The bullet exits both dummies and the wrist block but can't penetrate the
> thigh block because the bullet strikes two ribs not just one, thereby
> slowing it down to much.
>
> Moreover, it doesn't shatter the simulated wrist or forearm bone within the
> block even though it penetrates that gelatin wrist block
>
> But that's a problem.
>
> If CE-399 goes thru one rib and onwards thru Connally's wrist, how can it
> end up in Connally's thigh just after going through two bones (the rib AND
> wrist) which the Discovery Channel experiment proved was not possible (to
> make matters worse, aren't a wrist + rib bones > two rib bones)?
Their troublesome results reflect problems with their experimental
design.
Herbert
Herbert Blenner
President Kennedy had no obstacle in his body that was capable of
deflecting by twenty degrees a MC bullet with striking speed in excess of
nineteen hundred feet per second. Further the cost of a deflection by
twenty degrees is 51% of the bullet's kinetic energy. This consumption
would not have allowed the bullet inflict the five additions wounds on
Governor Connally.
Herbert
jim....@fuse.net
Ron you still don't get it. You can't have it both ways. If the back
shot was placed where witness who observed JFK's wounds first hand
(Dr. Burkley, 3rd thoracic vertebra, Navy corpsman Paul O'Connor, who
assisted HBF during the autopsy said the back wound he saw was 3 or 3
1/2 inches below the C-7 bump on the president's spine, SSA Clint Hill
who saw JFK's wounds to the head in Dealey Plaza but looked at the
remains of JFK's body in the Bethesda Morgue observed a wound in the
back about 6 inches below the neck line and about 2 inches to the
right of the spine. If a shot from the rear were actually lined up
properly and accurately to exit where the wound in the front of JFK's
neck actually was as you suggest, the shot that inflicted JFK's back
wound would not have originated on the 6th floor of the TSBD. It would
have to have come from a much lower position due to the less steep
trajectory required to make the shot work. Regards, Jim
Anthony Marsh
You make no sense. We are talking about a bullet being deflected by the
vertebra. Something forensic pathologists see every day. You equations are
junk. Let me ask you a question and challenge you to answer it. Use all
the equations you want.
Fire a .44 up towards the ceiling. The bullet hits an acoustic ceiling
tile. Does it go through that tile or is it deflected off it and merely
scrape it?
>
> Herbert
WhiskyJoe
> However, one of the Discovery
> Channel program's major
> malfunctions is the ASSUMPTION
> that the "Magic Bullet" shot was
> the second shot. It has been
> proven on this forum that JFK
> was hit in the neck with the
> first shot which was fired right
> after Z186 and immediately before
> JFK goes behind the Stemmons sign
> at Z 202 referenced the Zapruder
> frame and by Phil Willis' photo
> Number 5.
No, it has not been proven that JFK was hit right after Z186. Between
eyewitness memories and the Zapruder film, I will always go with the
Zapruder film.
Looking at:
http://jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov
it appears JFK and Connally start reacting at the same time, just
after emerging from behind the sign.
It is also clear that if JFK was hit just after 186 then:
For the next 40 frames, he did not raise his elbows. With the sign in
the way, it's hard to tell if there is any reaction, but as he emerges
from behind the sign, the elbows are down.
Then, at frame 226, he goes into his main reaction phase, raising his
elbows up high and holding them there, for the next 87 frames.
More curiously, this main reaction phase occurs just after Connally's
coat bulges forward and Connally's right arm flies up in front of his
face. The same coat and side of the coat that was struck by a bullet,
the same arm that was struck by a bullet. Besides JFK and Connally, no
one else in the limousine is reacting in an agitated way at frame 226.
It seems an awful lot starts happening at frame 224-226, which is best
explained by a bullet strike on both JFK and Connally at frame 222.
Yes, it is possible that JFK was struck at 190 and had a long delayed
reaction before raising both his elbows and keeping them there and
this main reaction just happened to start at the same time Connally
starts reacting, but if we follow the principles of Occam's Razor, the
simplest and most probable explanation is a bullet at frame 222.
> Furthermore, the shot target
> on the back of the JFK torso was
> inaccurately placed too high so
> the trajectory would come closer
> to hitting the bullet wound in
> the front of JFK's neck. If they
> had not have elevated the back
> shot target location to the
> inaccurate Gerald Ford position,
> they KNEW the shot would not work.
If this is true, if the wounds were caused by two different bullets,
it was an amazing coincidence that the wounds came within an inch or
two of being in just the right locations for the SBT theory to work.
All the conspirators had to do was misrepresent the wounds by an inch
or two and they could push for the SBT.
Let's imagine two mythical lands.
In Cteria, there were ten pairs of politicians shot with two bullets.
In ten of ten, or certainly nine of ten cases, the people trying to
misrepresent these wounds as being caused by one bullet in each case
would have a major problem. Generally, the wounds would be off by 6
inches or more of where they need to be for the SBT to be true.
In contrast, in Lneria, there were ten pairs of politicians shot with
one bullet. In ten of ten cases, the people trying to misrepresent
these wounds as being caused by two bullets would always say the
wounds were off by one or two inches for the SBT to work.
The wounds to JFK (back and neck) and Connally (back) are the sort of
wounds more typically made in Lneria than Cteria. If they were made by
two bullets, it is astounding that they:
* are so close to the correct position for being in a straight line
around frame 226, just when both JFK and Connally start reacting
* that the sniper's nest also happens to be on or pretty near that
same straight line
* If JFK and Connally were hit at the same time, as they appear to be,
it's amazing the bullet that hit JFK did not continue on to hit
Connally (and no, it is not typical for rifle bullets to stop after
two inches, unless JFK carried a lead bible in his neck) and equally
amazing that the bullet that caused Connally's chest wound did not
strike JFK first.
If the wounds were caused by two different bullets, the conspirators
were incredibly lucky in the location of the wounds.
Using Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is that JFK and Connally
were struck by one bullet, not two bullets that by sheer luck struck
in places that would mimic the effects of one bullet.
In conclusion, it is best to try to avoid theories that make use of
coincidences. The problem with a strike at Z190 is that one has to
admit that it was a coincidence that JFK and Connally start reacting
at the same time, Z226. The problem with claiming the wounds are off
by a couple of inches is that one has to admit that it was a
coincidence that the wounds came within a couple of inches of lining
up with each other and the sniper's nest.
Andrew Mason
>>However, one of the Discovery
>>Channel program's major
>>malfunctions is the ASSUMPTION
>>that the "Magic Bullet" shot was
>>the second shot. It has been
>>proven on this forum that JFK
>>was hit in the neck with the
>>first shot which was fired right
>>after Z186 and immediately before
>>JFK goes behind the Stemmons sign
>>at Z 202 referenced the Zapruder
>>frame and by Phil Willis' photo
>>Number 5.
>
>
> No, it has not been proven that JFK was hit right after Z186. Between
> eyewitness memories and the Zapruder film, I will always go with the
> Zapruder film.
You mean your theory as to what is causing the things you see in the zfilm.
Personally, I would want to look at all the evidence just to be sure
that my interpretion fits with other bodies of reliable evidence before
reaching a firm conclusion. The remarkable number of witnesses along Elm
who pinpoint the location of the first shot around z200 is a little
difficult to explain if the first shot was at z160. As is the shot
pattern evidence. As is the large number of witnesses who observed JFK
reacting to the first shot.
Andrew Mason
Anthony Marsh
I don't follow you. So what if there was a shot at exactly Z-200? There
could also be a shot at Z-160, even from the same weapon. That's only 40
frames difference, which at 18.3 frames per second gives the shooter 2.2
seconds to reload.
Anthony Marsh
Neither of those men were qualified to make any such assessment of the
location of the wound. Vast numbers of people have no idea exactly where
the vertebrae are located on various individuals, including doctors.
> who saw JFK's wounds to the head in Dealey Plaza but looked at the
> remains of JFK's body in the Bethesda Morgue observed a wound in the
> back about 6 inches below the neck line and about 2 inches to the
> right of the spine. If a shot from the rear were actually lined up
> properly and accurately to exit where the wound in the front of JFK's
> neck actually was as you suggest, the shot that inflicted JFK's back
> wound would not have originated on the 6th floor of the TSBD. It would
> have to have come from a much lower position due to the less steep
> trajectory required to make the shot work. Regards, Jim
>
>
In fact, if you have JFK seated upright and place the back wound where
you think it was, the bullet would never exit the throat. On a straight
line downward trajectory it would have to hit the manubrium.
That is considerably lower than the throat wound.
>
Andrew Mason
Anthony Marsh wrote:
There can only be one first shot.
Andrew Mason
Gerry Simone (O)
"Andrew Mason" <a.m...@dufourlaw.com> wrote in message
news:12tha6d...@corp.supernews.com...
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
>
> - Show quoted text -
*** I am not trying to have it both ways. The first hand placement of the
back wound is from the autopsy photo, which shows the actual wound
placement.
The autopsy photo of Kennedy's back does not show a bullet wound 6 inches
down and 2 inches to the right of the spine. If Kennedy had been shot
there, i don't know that kennedy would remained sitting upright until he
was shot in the head. Connally was not able to remain upright with a
chest wound, until Z313.
***Ron Judge
Gerry Simone (O)
The continuous block materail will maintain it's steadiness in flight,
whereas, striking different material or of different density will cause it
to go off tilter, or wobble, etc.
"Herbert Blenner" <a1e...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1171848214.6...@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 17, 8:48?pm, "Gerry Simone (H)" <newdecent...@hotmail.com>
Gerry Simone (H)
<jim....@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:1171814978.2...@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Gerry Simone (O)
<jim....@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:1171894579....@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Gerry Simone (O)
The rifle looked like it was taped to the cage.
<r2bz...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1171823223.7...@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Andrew Mason
> Fuhrman proposes a lone assassin SBT too
I think you mean Lone assassin, no SBT too.
He thinks CE399 hit the windshield. I say it entered his thigh. He also
ignores the shot pattern evidence and the cogent, consistent evidence
putting it at z200 or so. See my last post to cdddraftsman. It is
unanswerable - although I am sure some will try to answer it.
Andrew Mason
Anthony Marsh
> Gerry Simone (O) wrote:
>
>> Fuhrman proposes a lone assassin SBT too
>
> I think you mean Lone assassin, no SBT too.
>
> He thinks CE399 hit the windshield. I say it entered his thigh. He also
I seriously doubt that. Maybe you haven't actually read his book. He does
not claim that it was CE 399 which hit the windshield. He thinks CE 399
went through Connally ONLY. This is known as the Modified Single Bullet
Theory (now public domain). The bullet which he thinks went through
Kennedy is the one he thinks hit the chrome topping above the windshield
and was never recovered.
You can call Fuhrman an idiot, but don't misrepresent his theories to
prove it.
Anthony Marsh
Kennedy in fact did not remain sitting upright until he was shot in the
head.
Andrew Mason
Anthony Marsh wrote:
> Andrew Mason wrote:
>
>> Gerry Simone (O) wrote:
>>
>>> Fuhrman proposes a lone assassin SBT too
>>
>>
>> I think you mean Lone assassin, no SBT too.
>>
>> He thinks CE399 hit the windshield. I say it entered his thigh. He also
>
>
> I seriously doubt that. Maybe you haven't actually read his book. He
> does not claim that it was CE 399 which hit the windshield. He thinks
> CE 399 went through Connally ONLY. This is known as the Modified
> Single Bullet Theory (now public domain). The bullet which he thinks
> went through Kennedy is the one he thinks hit the chrome topping above
> the windshield and was never recovered.
I confess I haven't read his book - just some reviews.
Andrew Mason