There wasn't time...
davidemerling
the conspiracy community.
1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
Warren Commission.
2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
encounter with Officer Tippit.
Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
claims anymore?
It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
of these "there wasn't time" claims?
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
Anthony Marsh
> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> the conspiracy community.
>
> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> Warren Commission.
>
False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
> 2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
> the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> claims anymore?
>
There always will be.
> It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
> certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
The problem is when some people debunk kooky theories by lying about the
evidence.
> I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
> of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
Maybe 5%.
> David Emerling
> Memphis, TN
>
>
John Blubaugh
There are still problems with the time frame in all of these
instances. There is enough of a problem to equal reasonable doubt.
JB
davidemerling
> > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > Warren Commission.
>
> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
Do you really think the young (33yr old) Specter was more concerned
with WW3 than he was with unraveling the murder of a President of the
United States? All those young attorneys, who did the bulk of the work
for the Warren Commission, would have LOVED to have been the one to
identify a conspiracy - IF one existed.
As Burt Griffin once said:
"The accusation that we had a predetermined idea to find that there
was no conspiracy and that Oswald was the assassin is COMPLETELY
false. The one thing I wanted to do was FIND a conspiracy. I was a
32yr-old lawyer at that point and I had political ambitions. If I
could have found that Oswald didn't do it, *I* would have been the
senator from Ohio and not John Glenn."
I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
worked for the commission.
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
bigdog
>
> - Show quoted text -
You fail to understand. The case against Oswald isn't based on any of
the time frames in question. The case against Oswald is based on hard
physical evidence and an eyewitness. The "there wasn't time" arguments
are a form of rebuttal evidence. They are intended to show that what
the hard physical evidence clearly indicates couldn't be true. Since
no one was running a stopwatch on 11/22/63, these time frame arguments
are based on guesses and therefore meaningless. They do nothing to
strike down the evidence of Oswald's guilt and do not create
reasonable doubt in the mind of any reasonable person.
Bud
In unreasonable people. The fact that is all these timing instances
there is little real hard data to work with. CTers just choose to
pretend there is, like they do with the size of the package Oswald
carried into work and a lot of other things.
> JB
Bud
> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > the conspiracy community.
>
> > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > Warren Commission.
>
> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
Actually, he was faced with the task of determining what occurred,
so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
> so now one bullet would
> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > 2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
> > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > claims anymore?
>
> There always will be.
Less and less as years go by. I suspect as this crop of WC
dissenters die off there will few to pick up the cause. Eventually all
that will be left standing is the WCR, and all the people who shook
their fists at it will be forgotten.
> > It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
> > certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
> The problem is when some people debunk kooky theories by lying about the
> evidence.
LNers don`t lie about the evidence, they just look at it in the
proper context. CTers generally look at the evidence in a skewed
manner in their desperation to find justification for their beliefs.
> > I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
> > of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
> Maybe 5%.
Fun to guess, isn`t it?
>
>
>
>
>
> > David Emerling
> > Memphis, TN
Chuck Schuyler
> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > the conspiracy community.
>
> > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > Warren Commission.
>
> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
Are you suggesting WWIII "and the deaths of 40 million Americans,"
hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
This is pretty common Conspiracy 101 baloney, and it deserves to be
put to bed. The SBT wasn't even a working hypothesis until the spring
of 1964--long after the assassination--and any USSR/USA tensions that
may have existed due to the JFK murder had cooled by then.
<snip>
WBurg...@aol.com
> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> the conspiracy community.
>
> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> Warren Commission.
>
> 2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
> the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
HOWARD RUFFMAN PROVED THIS.
>
> 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> claims anymore?
ME. BURGUNDY.
>
> It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
> certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
WEGMAN'S FILM SHOWS BAKER SPRINTING TOWARD THE TSBD. ALL THE
RECREATIONS PUT OSWALD ON ROLLER SKATES AND SNOWSHOES ON OSWALD.
SEE:
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/
PART 3 CHAPTER 8
jas
>
> I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
> worked for the commission.
>
> David Emerling
> Memphis, TN
Didn't Gary Mack put to rest all that time-line stuff? Turns out there
was more than enough time.
Somehow over the years so many conspiracists have developed the idea
that the shooting was the "Impossible Mission" in so many ways, when
it was so easily carried out. Heck Oswald didn't even have to don a
fake beard and sunglasses, or dye his hair. He just had to break down
and reassemble the Carcano.
JFK had it exactly right when he expressed that any nut with a rifle
from a high office building could get him. Spooky premonition maybe --
but more like the real world. He was just being realistic.
WBurg...@aol.com
MAKE THAT SNOWSHOES ON BAKER
WBurg...@aol.com
Jean Davison
>
> > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > the conspiracy community.
>
> > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > Warren Commission.
>
> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
Not according to Specter. In 1966 he told Life magazine that,
given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
concluded that one bullet hit both men."
Jean
davidemerling
> WEGMAN'S FILM SHOWS BAKER SPRINTING TOWARD THE TSBD. ALL THE
> RECREATIONS PUT OSWALD ON ROLLER SKATES AND SNOWSHOES ON OSWALD.
>
> SEE:
>
> http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/
>
> PART 3 CHAPTER 8
"Unsolved History" produced a program called "JFK Conspiracy" in 2003 and
did a very detailed reenactment of the trek from the sniper's nest to the
vestibule on the 2nd floor. Without even running - at a fairly relaxed
pace - the subject reached did it in 48 seconds. That made him go around
boxes (obstacles), hide the rifle, go down the steps, and he wasn't the
least bit out of breath. And he had 32 seconds to spare!
Roller skates? Hardly.
David Emerling
Memphis, TN
Sandy McCroskey
Isn't Marsh's estimate that only 5 percent of CTs still stands by any
of these claims going to make you feel too lonely to hold out in this
position?
I know you like to think you're on the same page as "everybody else."
/sm
WBurg...@aol.com
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Video_Clips_-_Motorcade_Films
COUCH FILM CLEARLY SHOWS BAKER SPRINTING TO TSBD
bigdog
> On Mar 29, 9:37 am, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
> > worked for the commission.
>
> > David Emerling
> > Memphis, TN
>
> Didn't Gary Mack put to rest all that time-line stuff? Turns out there
> was more than enough time.
>
If you want to kill a conspiracy myth, you have to drive a stake through
its heart at midnight. Otherwise, it will keep rising from the dead. Once
a CT has committed himself to a myth, no amount of reason, logic, or
evidence will disuade him.
> Somehow over the years so many conspiracists have developed the idea
> that the shooting was the "Impossible Mission" in so many ways, when
> it was so easily carried out. Heck Oswald didn't even have to don a
> fake beard and sunglasses, or dye his hair. He just had to break down
> and reassemble the Carcano.
>
It's really a tough concept to grasp. I twisted little nobody reads that
the POTUS is going to ride past his workplace in an open top limo so he
goes home to fetch his rifle, sneaks it into work, finds a spot where he
will be alone, and when his target arrives, he sticks that rifle out the
window and shoots the POTUS twice. I guess that's just too simple an
explaination for the CTs. It's never that simple in the movies. There's
always an interesting plot twist. Surely, it couldn't happen that way in
real life either. (I know. Don't call me Shirley).
> JFK had it exactly right when he expressed that any nut with a rifle
> from a high office building could get him. Spooky premonition maybe --
> but more like the real world. He was just being realistic.
Amazing he could figure that out ahead of time but after 47 years,
some folks are still puzzled by it.
WBurg...@aol.com
That bullet hit Connaly and ended up in his wrist/thigh. But of course
Specter had already concluded that there was only one shooter.... he
concluded that early. He had to. So that leads you to one place.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>>
>>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
>>> the conspiracy community.
>>
>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> Are you suggesting WWIII "and the deaths of 40 million Americans,"
> hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
> shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>
If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
would mean conspiracy and that would spark WWIII leading to the death of
40 million Americans.
> This is pretty common Conspiracy 101 baloney, and it deserves to be
> put to bed. The SBT wasn't even a working hypothesis until the spring
> of 1964--long after the assassination--and any USSR/USA tensions that
> may have existed due to the JFK murder had cooled by then.
>
Then why the continued cover-up? Some people continue the cover-up
without knowing why it was started.
> <snip>
>
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>>
>>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
>>> the conspiracy community.
>>
>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
>
> Actually, he was faced with the task of determining what occurred,
> so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
> dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
>
No, he has explained his reasoning and the fact that two shots so
closely together would indicate a conspiracy.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> Do you really think the young (33yr old) Specter was more concerned
> with WW3 than he was with unraveling the murder of a President of the
> United States? All those young attorneys, who did the bulk of the work
> for the Warren Commission, would have LOVED to have been the one to
> identify a conspiracy - IF one existed.
>
Yes, I know he was. He explained that if not for the SBT he would have
to say it was a conspiracy because Oswald's rifle could not be reloaded
that quickly.
> As Burt Griffin once said:
> "The accusation that we had a predetermined idea to find that there
> was no conspiracy and that Oswald was the assassin is COMPLETELY
> false. The one thing I wanted to do was FIND a conspiracy. I was a
> 32yr-old lawyer at that point and I had political ambitions. If I
> could have found that Oswald didn't do it, *I* would have been the
> senator from Ohio and not John Glenn."
>
He is a liar.
> I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
> worked for the commission.
>
Yes, they were all liars.
That's why you support and admire them.
> David Emerling
> Memphis, TN
>
John Blubaugh
> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > Warren Commission.
>
> > False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> > hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> Do you really think the young (33yr old) Specter was more concerned
> with WW3 than he was with unraveling the murder of a President of the
> United States? All those young attorneys, who did the bulk of the work
> for the Warren Commission, would have LOVED to have been the one to
> identify a conspiracy - IF one existed.
>
I don't think that is true. They knew where their political bread was
buttered and they knew what they were supposed to find. The proceded
to find it or distort the evidence (moving the back wound up) to make
it work. They did anything but ever consider a second shooter. When
you look at the opportunist Specter became at the end of his career,
why would you think any differently?
> As Burt Griffin once said:
> "The accusation that we had a predetermined idea to find that there
> was no conspiracy and that Oswald was the assassin is COMPLETELY
> false. The one thing I wanted to do was FIND a conspiracy. I was a
> 32yr-old lawyer at that point and I had political ambitions. If I
> could have found that Oswald didn't do it, *I* would have been the
> senator from Ohio and not John Glenn."
>
Well, that isn't true. His party would have been sure he never ran for
any office.
> I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
> worked for the commission.
>
> David Emerling
> Memphis, TN
I don't think it represents any of them.
JB
John Blubaugh
> On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:11 pm, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > 2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
> > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > claims anymore?
>
> > > It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
> > > certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
> > > I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
> > > of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
> > > David Emerling
> > > Memphis, TN
>
> > There are still problems with the time frame in all of these
> > instances. There is enough of a problem to equal reasonable doubt.
>
>
> the time frames in question. The case against Oswald is based on hard
> physical evidence and an eyewitness. The "there wasn't time" arguments
> are a form of rebuttal evidence. They are intended to show that what
> the hard physical evidence clearly indicates couldn't be true. Since
> no one was running a stopwatch on 11/22/63, these time frame arguments
> are based on guesses and therefore meaningless. They do nothing to
> strike down the evidence of Oswald's guilt and do not create
> reasonable doubt in the mind of any reasonable person.
So you say but the doubt has been raised in the minds of millions of
reasonable people. The timing issues are just part of it.
JB
John Blubaugh
You don't want there to be any hard data. You choose to ignore it and
there is plenty of reasonable doubt by perfectly reasonable people.
JB
John Blubaugh
The WC supporters are the ones dying off and no one will pick up there
cause. There is a lot of proof that the government lied about many of
the issues surrounding the case and that will feed CTs for all
eternity. Nutters are the doomed species here.
JB
John Blubaugh
> On Mar 28, 9:11 pm, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > the conspiracy community.
>
> > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > Warren Commission.
>
> > 2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
> > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> HOWARD RUFFMAN PROVED THIS.
>
>
>
> > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > claims anymore?
>
> ME. BURGUNDY.
>
>
Bingo!!!
JB
Anthony Marsh
Sure, but how could he be sure that there were no bullet holes in the
limo? Remember that the WC believed the SS lie that the dent of the chrome
topping happened long before the Dallas trip. And they did not resolve the
rumor about a hole in the floor. Fuhrman thinks the bullet which exited
JFK's throat is the one which hit the chrome topping. Guess who was the
person who proved that the chrome topping was not dented before Dealey
Plaza? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't YOU. So tell us again, what exactly
is wrong with the Humes SBT?
WBurg...@aol.com
What, I'm not popular? My views are in the minority? Jeez Sandy, with
people like you in the world we wouldn't have Galileo or Einstein. Or
maybe you do believe the sun revolves around the earth. I suggest you
read Emerson's "Self-Reliance," and figure out how to stand up for
what you believe.
Burgundy
p.s. I'll tell you one thing I agree with Judyth on...and I emphasize
one thing.... the research outlining the truth is Horne, and "JFK: The
Unspeakable...."
Warmst personal regards,
Burgundy
WBurg...@aol.com
Refute Roffman. No one can. THERE'S NO WAY OSWALD HAD TIME. Refute the
Couch film. I'm offering solid evidence. You guys are offering...
"Haven't we killed this yet?" ANSWER NO YOU HAVE NOT BECAUSE IT IS NOT
TRUE.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 29, 9:37 am, davidemerling<davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
>> worked for the commission.
>>
>> David Emerling
>> Memphis, TN
>
> Didn't Gary Mack put to rest all that time-line stuff? Turns out there
> was more than enough time.
>
We can't tell what you are talking about when you snip.
Yes there were plenty of seconds available for 3 shots.
The problem Specter ran into was two shots too close together.
Anthony Marsh
Isn't my estimate that only 10% of the public believes that there was no
conspiracy going to make you feel too lonely to hold out in this position?
John Blubaugh
>
Not everybody else, just the "right" side, the CT side.
JB
Jean Davison
Specter was talking about the bullet that exited JFK's
throat. Where did it go if it didn't hit Connally?
Jean
Jean Davison
> On 3/29/2011 3:23 PM, Jean Davison wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> >>> Warren Commission.
>
> >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> >> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > Not according to Specter. In 1966 he told Life magazine that,
> > given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
> > holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
> > did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
> > concluded that one bullet hit both men."
>
> > Jean
>
> Sure, but how could he be sure that there were no bullet holes in the
> limo? Remember that the WC believed the SS lie that the dent of the chrome
> topping happened long before the Dallas trip. And they did not resolve the
> rumor about a hole in the floor.
The FBI's Robert Frazier testified:
QUOTE:
>>>
Mr. SPECTER - Was your examination a thorough examination of all
aspects of the interior of the automobile?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; for our purpose. However, we did not tear out
all of the rugs on the floor, for instance. We examined the rugs
carefully for holes, for bullet furroughs, for fragments. We examined
the nap of the rug, in the actual nap of the rug, for fragments and
bullet holes. We pulled the rug back as far as we could turn it back
and even tore the glue or adhesive material loose around the cracks at
the edges of the rug so we could observe the cracks to see whether
they had been enlarged, and we examined all of the upholstery
covering, on the back of the front seat, on the doors, and in the rear
seat compartment, the jump seats, the actual rear seat, the back of
the rear seat, and we examined the front seat in a similar manner, and
we found no bullet holes or other bullet impact areas, other than the
one on the inside of the windshield and the dent inside the windshield
chrome.
Mr. SPECTER - Had any of those portions of the automobile been struck
by the bullet exiting from the President's neck, which I have
described hypothetically for you, would you have found some evidence
of striking?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES - When was this examination made?
Mr. FRAZIER - Between 2 and 4:30 a.m. on November 23, 1963.
>>>
UNQUOTE
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm
> Fuhrman thinks the bullet which exited
> JFK's throat is the one which hit the chrome topping.
I don't care what Fuhrman thinks.
>Guess who was the
> person who proved that the chrome topping was not dented before Dealey
> Plaza? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't YOU.
Good for you! Give yourself a big pat on the back, Tony!
>So tell us again, what exactly
> is wrong with the Humes SBT?
Who cares?
Jean
Jean Davison
> On 3/29/2011 12:47 PM, Chuck Schuyler wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> >>> Warren Commission.
>
> >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> >> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > Are you suggesting WWIII "and the deaths of 40 million Americans,"
> > hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
> > shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>
> If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
> would mean conspiracy and that would spark WWIII leading to the death of
> 40 million Americans.
Why's that? Oswald had recently visited the Russian and Cuban
embassies and was a former defector to the USSR. If "they" wanted to drum
up WWIII, who needed a second shooter?
Jean
bigdog
>
Of course he concluded that because that is what the evidence tells
us. If there was another shooter, his shot missed everything, was not
seen firing a gun, left no evidence at the seen, and disappeared
without a trace. Who believes such a thing is reasonably possible.
bigdog
>
> - Show quoted text -
Is there no end to your baseless assumptions?
bigdog
guilt. Most people, even if they believe there was a conspiracy,
beleive Oswald was a/the shooter. Only the desperate anybody-but-
Oswald crowd argues for his innocence. They are the equivalent of the
9/11 truthers, the moon landing doubters, and the Area 51 junkies.
bigdog
you retreat to your "learn to google" dodge.
bigdog
But we will die knowing who killed JFK and you will die confused as
hell. The history books will continue to identify LHO as the assassin
because the CTs will never be able to offer them an alternative or any
hard evidence of anyone else's involvement. You can't replace
something with nothing.
> There is a lot of proof that the government lied about many of
> the issues surrounding the case and that will feed CTs for all
> eternity. Nutters are the doomed species here.
>
I wish it were possible to collect on a bet after we are both pushing
up daisies.
John Blubaugh
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bingo!!
JB
John Blubaugh
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well said and right on the mark.
JB
John Blubaugh
>
> - Show quoted text -
It won't matter. He is not capable of accepting anything that opposes
the WCR. That is the problem with all of the nutters, they can't think
or reason, they can only quote chapter and verse.
JB
John Blubaugh
>
> - Show quoted text -
It hit the chrome above the window in the front of the limo.
JB
John Blubaugh
>
> > Fuhrman thinks the bullet which exited
> > JFK's throat is the one which hit the chrome topping.
>
> I don't care what Fuhrman thinks.
>
Why not? He is one of yours.
> >Guess who was the
> > person who proved that the chrome topping was not dented before Dealey
> > Plaza? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't YOU.
>
> Good for you! Give yourself a big pat on the back, Tony!
>
> >So tell us again, what exactly
> > is wrong with the Humes SBT?
>
> Who cares?
>
And therein lies the problem.
JB
Sandy McCroskey
Any species that doesn't understand the laws of physics better than
you guys is going to have a hard time surviving on this planet.
/sm
WBurg...@aol.com
Jean can you pick apart Roffman's research? I think you're the only LN I
know who has the patience, and perhaps, the interest. See the above
chapter 8 from his book, it is heavily documented. I think he's nailed
something but if he can be proven wrong, in error, mistaken or sloppily
researched, it'd be good to know. Also watch the Couch film...is that not
Baker sprinting to the TSBD?? You are good at this, have resources, and
the mindset. Peace. Burgundy.
Burgundy
bigdog
But we can articulate our positions and cite references and evidence
to back them up. All you can offer us is "learn to google". You are
really taking the intellectual high ground with that ploy.
Anthony Marsh
For some people that is not enough. Like certain people here they think
the only way to prove conspiracy is to find a second shooter.
Anthony Marsh
Too hard for you? I thought your only goal was to correct errors
regardless of which side made them.
> Jean
Anthony Marsh
Oh, I see. We have to absolutely prove where that bullet went, but you
don't have to prove where your missed shot went. It's hypocrisy.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 29, 10:15 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>>
>>>>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
>>>>> the conspiracy community.
>>
>>>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
>>>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>>>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>>>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>>>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>>>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>>>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
>>>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>>
>>> hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
>>> shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>>
>> If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
>> 40 million Americans.
>
> Surely you jest. The SBT wasn't really a functioning theory (as I
> noted) until the spring of 2011.
Hey, what you got against Specter's SBT? Why do you think yours is
superior?
>>
>>> This is pretty common Conspiracy 101 baloney, and it deserves to be
>>> put to bed. The SBT wasn't even a working hypothesis until the spring
>>> of 1964--long after the assassination--and any USSR/USA tensions that
>>> may have existed due to the JFK murder had cooled by then.
>>
>> Then why the continued cover-up? Some people continue the cover-up
>> without knowing why it was started.
>
> Logical fallacy. Begging the Question.
Even Hosty admitted there was a cover-up.
It is not something I made up from my imagination.
Bud
> On 3/29/2011 12:47 PM, Bud wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> >>> Warren Commission.
>
> >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> >> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
>
> > so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
> > dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
>
> closely together would indicate a conspiracy.
Then you should be able to quote him. But the smart money is that
you won`t.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> so now one bullet would
> >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> >>> 2. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from the 6th floor sniper's nest to
> >>> the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> >>> 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> >>> encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> >>> Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> >>> claims anymore?
>
> >> There always will be.
>
> > Less and less as years go by. I suspect as this crop of WC
> > dissenters die off there will few to pick up the cause. Eventually all
> > that will be left standing is the WCR, and all the people who shook
> > their fists at it will be forgotten.
>
> >>> It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
> >>> certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
> >> The problem is when some people debunk kooky theories by lying about the
> >> evidence.
>
> > LNers don`t lie about the evidence, they just look at it in the
> > proper context. CTers generally look at the evidence in a skewed
> > manner in their desperation to find justification for their beliefs.
>
> >>> I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
> >>> of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
> >> Maybe 5%.
>
> > Fun to guess, isn`t it?
>
> >>> David Emerling
> >>> Memphis, TN
Bud
> On Mar 29, 11:49 am, "WBurgha...@aol.com" <WBurgha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 9:11 pm, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
>
> > > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > claims anymore?
>
>
> > > It seems they have all been debunked with what information we know for
> > > certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
> > RECREATIONS PUT OSWALD ON ROLLER SKATES AND SNOWSHOES ON OSWALD.
>
> > SEE:
>
> >http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/PG/
>
> > PART 3 CHAPTER 8
>
> > > I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
> > > of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
> > > Memphis, TN
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Video_Clips_-_Motorcade_Films
>
> COUCH FILM CLEARLY SHOWS BAKER SPRINTING TO TSBD
So we know what Baker did for a short period of time.
Bud
> On 3/29/2011 12:47 PM, Chuck Schuyler wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> >>> Warren Commission.
>
> >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
> > shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>
> If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
> 40 million Americans.
>
> > This is pretty common Conspiracy 101 baloney, and it deserves to be
> > put to bed. The SBT wasn't even a working hypothesis until the spring
> > of 1964--long after the assassination--and any USSR/USA tensions that
> > may have existed due to the JFK murder had cooled by then.
>
> Then why the continued cover-up?
You`d have to ask your fellow CTers why they continue to cover up
Oswald`s guilt.
> Some people continue the cover-up
> without knowing why it was started.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > <snip>
Bud
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 28, 10:11 pm, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > > claims anymore?
>
> > > > certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
> > > > of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
> > > > David Emerling
> > > > Memphis, TN
>
> > > instances. There is enough of a problem to equal reasonable doubt.
>
> > there is little real hard data to work with. CTers just choose to
> > pretend there is, like they do with the size of the package Oswald
> > carried into work and a lot of other things.
>
> You don't want there to be any hard data.
You want to pretend that there is when there isn`t. You want to
keep making absolute statements that are unsupportable.
> You choose to ignore it and
> there is plenty of reasonable doubt by perfectly reasonable people.
No, there really isn`t. There are people who are desperate to
pretend that there is justifications for their position.
> JB
Bud
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
>
> > so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
> > dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
>
> > > hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > > > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > > claims anymore?
>
>
> > Less and less as years go by. I suspect as this crop of WC
> > dissenters die off there will few to pick up the cause. Eventually all
> > that will be left standing is the WCR, and all the people who shook
> > their fists at it will be forgotten.
>
> cause. There is a lot of proof that the government lied about many of
> the issues surrounding the case and that will feed CTs for all
> eternity. Nutters are the doomed species here.
The truth doesn`t need supporters, it can stand on it`s own. And the
WCR will stand it`s own long after all the dissenters fall silent. One
generation and the critics are done.
> JB
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 29, 12:37 pm, davidemerling<davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
>>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>>
>> with WW3 than he was with unraveling the murder of a President of the
>> United States? All those young attorneys, who did the bulk of the work
>> for the Warren Commission, would have LOVED to have been the one to
>> identify a conspiracy - IF one existed.
>>
>
> I don't think that is true. They knew where their political bread was
> buttered and they knew what they were supposed to find. The proceded
> to find it or distort the evidence (moving the back wound up) to make
> it work. They did anything but ever consider a second shooter. When
> you look at the opportunist Specter became at the end of his career,
> why would you think any differently?
>
>> As Burt Griffin once said:
>> "The accusation that we had a predetermined idea to find that there
>> was no conspiracy and that Oswald was the assassin is COMPLETELY
>> false. The one thing I wanted to do was FIND a conspiracy. I was a
>> 32yr-old lawyer at that point and I had political ambitions. If I
>> could have found that Oswald didn't do it, *I* would have been the
>> senator from Ohio and not John Glenn."
>>
>
> Well, that isn't true. His party would have been sure he never ran for
> any office.
>
Maybe this is why the Republican Party didn't kick him out until 2009.
Members of the WC cover-up were promoted and supported by the Republican
Party for their assistance in the cover-up of the assassination of a
Democratic President.
>
>> I'll bet his sentiments were typical of all the young attorneys who
>> worked for the commission.
>>
>> David Emerling
>> Memphis, TN
>
Bud
> On Mar 29, 6:17 pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 3:12 pm, jas <lle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 29, 9:37 am, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > worked for the commission.
>
> > > > David Emerling
> > > > Memphis, TN
>
All he offers is guesses. There is little hard data.
> THERE'S NO WAY OSWALD HAD TIME.
Thats the claim.
>Refute the
> Couch film.
Had Couch followed Baker the whole way to the second floor of the
TSBD we might have hard data to work with. He didn`t and we don`t.
> I'm offering solid evidence.
For a few seconds.
>You guys are offering...
> "Haven't we killed this yet?" ANSWER NO YOU HAVE NOT BECAUSE IT IS NOT
> TRUE.
What isn`t true?
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 29, 2:23 pm, Jean Davison<jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
>>>> the conspiracy community.
>>
>>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
>>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>>
>> given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
>> holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
>> did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
>> concluded that one bullet hit both men."
>>
>> Jean
>
> That bullet hit Connaly and ended up in his wrist/thigh. But of course
Excuse me? I have never seen the X-rays showing the bullet in Connally's
wrist. Can you dig those up for me? I think what you mean is that some
bullet fragments still remain in his wrist and in his thigh.
> Specter had already concluded that there was only one shooter.... he
> concluded that early. He had to. So that leads you to one place.
>
Can you figure out a way that the two men were hit by separate bullets
without it being a conspiracy?
Jean Davison
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:4d938277$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
You still haven't told me why finding a conspiracy would "spark
WWIII."
Jean
John Blubaugh
>
They are only baseless in your eyes.... and you can't see for the WC
mud in them (I'm trying to be nice calling it mud).
JB
John Blubaugh
> On Mar 29, 11:15 pm, "WBurgha...@aol.com" <WBurgha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 2:23 pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> > > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > > False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > > thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > > hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > > fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > > of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> > > > hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
> > > holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
> > > did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
> > > concluded that one bullet hit both men."
>
> > > Jean
>
> > That bullet hit Connaly and ended up in his wrist/thigh. But of course
> > concluded that early. He had to. So that leads you to one place.
> Of course he concluded that because that is what the evidence tells
> us. If there was another shooter, his shot missed everything, was not
> seen firing a gun, left no evidence at the seen, and disappeared
> without a trace. Who believes such a thing is reasonably possible.
LHO wasn't seen firing a gun unless you want to give credit to
Brennen. I don't.
Jb
John Blubaugh
> On Mar 29, 10:15 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 3/29/2011 12:47 PM, Chuck Schuyler wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> > >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > >>> Warren Commission.
>
> > >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > >> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> > >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
> > > shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>
> > If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
> > would mean conspiracy and that would spark WWIII leading to the death of
> > 40 million Americans.
>
> Why's that? Oswald had recently visited the Russian and Cuban
> embassies and was a former defector to the USSR. If "they" wanted to drum
> up WWIII, who needed a second shooter?
>
He did visit those embassies? Are you sure about that? What is the
proof?
JB
John Blubaugh
>
You don't understand the laws of physics. You have never studies
physics. Some of us have.
JB
John Blubaugh
You take the intellectual low ground with your continually asking for the
same information over and over and over again. I never ask you for any
refeferences because most of your positions are just to absurd to even
consider.
JB
mucher1
[Bugliosi, Endnote 839: the critics vehemently disagree]
The chief architect of what has become known in assassination circles
as “Oswald’s alibi” is the late Harold Weisberg, the former OSS agent
and U.S. Senate investigator turned chicken farmer who penned and self-
published his critique of the Warren Commission investigation in his
1965, now classic Whitewash: The Report on the Warren Report. However,
the most coherent and comprehensive (though equally incorrect)
critical analysis of the Commission’s timing of the Oswald-Baker
encounter (much of it borrowed from Weisberg’s earlier version), and
the basis for virtually every subsequent discussion, was offered ten
years later by twenty-three-year-old conspiracy theorist and author
Howard Roffman, who wrote, “From beginning to end, the execution of
the [Commission’s] reconstruction was in disregard of the known
actions of the participants, stretching—if not by intent, certainly in
effect—the time consumed for Baker to have arrived on the second floor
and shrinking the time for the ‘assassin’s’ descent” (Roffman,
Presumed Guilty, p.203). Ironically, Roffman managed to perform the
opposite feat in his own analysis.
To begin, Roffman charged that the Commission was fudging with regard
to the reconstructed timings of Baker and Truly, and he sought to
reduce their time, thereby making it less likely that Oswald, if he
had been on the sixth floor, could have gotten down to the second-
floor lunchroom in time to meet Baker when he did. Roffman pointed out
that although on the day of the assassination Baker started toward the
Book Depository Building after the third shot (3 H 247, WCT Marrion L.
Baker), the Commission may have timed Baker’s reconstruction movement
from the sound of the first shot (3 H 252, WCT Marrion L. Baker)*—the
effect being that Baker had more time (approximately 8.4 more seconds,
the time between Zapruder frames 160 and 313) to ascend to the second-
floor lunchroom, thereby likewise giving a gunman on the sixth floor
the necessary extra time it was determined he would need to get to the
second floor just before Baker did. Next, Roffman offered still frames
from a news film shot by WFAA-TV cameraman Malcolm O. Couch as
evidence that Baker actually entered the Depository earlier than the
Commission estimated. According to Roffman, the still frames show
Baker’s unmanned motorcycle parked at the Elm Street curb just 10
seconds after the last shot, leading Roffman to conclude that Baker
was already at the entrance to the Depository by then—quicker, by at
least 5 seconds, than the Commission calculated. (Roffman, Presumed
Guilty, pp.206–207; 7 H 593, WC affidavit of Marrion L. Baker) Roffman
was equally critical of the Commission’s timing of the rest of Baker’s
movements as he made his way to the second-floor landing. Roffman
calculated that Baker “reached the second floor in under 85 seconds,”
and that the Couch film “introduces the possibility that it may have
taken as little as 70 seconds” (Roffman, Presumed Guilty, pp.208–209).
While Roffman may be correct that the Commission erred in comparing
Oswald’s and Baker’s movements against two different start times
(i.e., having Baker begin at the sound of the first shot, and the
Secret Service agent portraying Oswald, John Joe Howlett, necessarily
beginning after the last shot [7 H 592, WC affidavit of John Joe
Howlett]), the other assumptions in Roffman’s own calculations more
than make up for the difference. In particular, Roffman’s suggestion
that Baker may have been entering the Depository just 10 seconds after
the last shot (compared to the Commission’s reenacted timing of 15
seconds) is wrong. Roffman based his claim on several still frames of
the Couch film that showed Baker’s motorcycle parked at the Elm Street
curb. As indicated, Roffman guessed that the film was made about “ten
seconds after the last shot” and that Baker must have been entering
the Depository by then. Yet the actual motion sequence from which the
still frames were taken shows not only Baker’s motorcycle at curbside,
as Roffman reported, but something Roffman apparently missed—Baker
himself is still outside the building, running toward the front
entrance of the Book Depository. (Roffman, Presumed Guilty, pp.206–
207, 287 note 3; Malcolm O. Couch footage, WFAA-TV Collection, Sixth
Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza) The beginning of the Couch news film
sequence, which depicts a portion of Baker’s dash to the front of the
Depository (Baker disappears from the film footage before he reaches
the Depository entrance), synchronizes to a point approximately 18
seconds after the last shot.** Even then, Baker is still sixty-two
feet away from entering the front door, which realistically would have
taken him an additional 13 seconds or so to cover at the pace depicted
in the Couch film. (Todd W. Vaughan, “The Baker/Oswald Encounter,”
Unpublished manuscript, March 1998, pp.8–9) All totaled, Officer Baker
would have arrived at the front door of the Depository approximately
31 seconds after the last shot—21 seconds later than Roffman
concluded, and a little more than twice the minimum time of 15 seconds
calculated by Baker for the Warren Commission (7 H 593, WC affidavit
of Marrion L. Baker; WR, p.152).
The rest of Roffman’s (and other critics’) calculations regarding
Baker’s actions are mostly a matter of semantics. No one can really be
sure of the precise timing of all of the actions that Baker and Truly
took between the time they entered the Depository and the time Baker
arrived in the second-floor lunchroom, certainly not to the degree
that conspiracy theorists have tried to break down each and every move
that Baker and Truly might have made. The Warren Commission was right
to propose a range of times—both minimum and maximum—in which Baker
might have arrived on the second floor. Note that even if we adjust
the Commission’s calculated range downward by 8.4 seconds (so that
both Baker’s and Oswald’s movements are timed from the same point,
i.e., the time of the last shot), then add an additional 16 seconds
(to account for the news film that indicates Baker entered the
Depository later than the Commission thought), we still end up with
Officer Baker arriving on the second floor somewhere between 83 and 98
seconds after the last shot—9 to 23 seconds later than the
Commission’s previous calculation of 74 seconds during the second
test.
While Roffman sought to collapse the time it took Baker to get up to
the second floor after the shots, making it impossible for Oswald to
have already been on the second floor when Baker arrived there, he
worked diligently to expand the time it would have taken Oswald to
descend four flights of stairs to the second-floor lunchroom. Although
there is eyewitness testimony that the assassin slowly pulled the
barrel of the rifle back into the window after the last shot (2 H 159,
WCT Robert Hill Jackson), then lingered “for another second as though
to assure [himself] that he hit his mark” (3 H 144, WCT Howard Leslie
Brennan; Decker Exhibit No. 5323, 19 H 470; CD 5, p.13), neither of
which were figured into the Warren Commission’s calculations, these
additional actions would have delayed Oswald by only a few seconds at
best. Roffman claimed that crime scene photographs of the boxes (CE
723, 726, 17 H 504, 506), and Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney’s testimony
that he had to turn sideways to get into the sniper’s nest (3 H 285),
indicate that the physical arrangement of the boxes would have
“prevented immediate evacuation of the area” (Roffman, Presumed
Guilty, pp.210–211). Yet, an additional crime scene photograph (CE
513, 17 H 224), taken from a different angle than those cited by
Roffman, shows an approximately one-foot gap in the wall of boxes that
would have allowed a relatively easy exit from the sniper’s nest,
especially given Oswald’s slender build.
Roffman is particularly imaginative in conjuring up an additional “15
to 20 seconds,” which he says the assassin would have needed to hide
the rifle near the back staircase. He points to a number of crime
scene photographs, as well as the testimony of several police officers
who were present when the rifle was found, in his bid to convince
readers that the assassin spent a significant amount of time
concealing the rifle. Roffman quotes Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone
telling the Warren Commission that the rifle was “stuffed down between
two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it” (3
H 293) and Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney saying he “had to get around to
the right angle” before he could see the rifle (3 H 289). Also, Deputy
Constable Seymour Weitzman saying the rifle “was covered with boxes.
It was very well protected as far as the naked eye” (7 H 107). Roffman
noted that crime scene photographs of the area “corroborate what these
men have described and add other information,” particularly “that the
rifle had been pushed upright on its side between two rows of boxes
that partially overlapped the top, thus eliminating the possibility
that the rifle had merely been dropped between the stacks” (Roffman,
Presumed Guilty, pp.212–213). Roffman went on to suggest that the
boxes surrounding the rifle had been moved before the crime scene
photographs had been taken, citing Deputy Weitzman, who told CBS News
in 1967 that he and Boone moved two boxes to uncover the rifle
(Transcript of CBS News Inquiry: The Warren Report, part I, June 25,
1967, p.9, CBS Television Archives). “Hence,” Roffman wrote, “the
concealment of the rifle required much maneuvering. In addition to
squeezing in between boxes, the gunman had to move certain cartons
filled with books. The rifle itself had been very carefully placed in
position. Doubtless this would have added at least 15, perhaps 20,
seconds to the reconstructed time” (Roffman, Presumed Guilty, p.213).
While the crime scene photographs support police testimony that the
rifle was well hidden, Roffman’s claim that concealing the rifle in
such a manner required considerable effort (and consequently,
significantly delayed the assassin’s escape) is not well taken. In
particular, the assertion that Oswald had to move several cartons of
books in order to hide the rifle (or that police subsequently had to
move boxes to uncover the rifle) is false. As indicated, to support
his claim, Roffman cited Deputy Weitzman’s statements to CBS News in
1967 in which he said, “[Deputy Boone] was climbing on top, and I was
down on my knees looking, and I moved a box, and he moved a carton,
and there it was” (i.e., without their moving boxes, they wouldn’t
have been able to see the weapon) (Transcript of CBS News Inquiry: The
Warren Report, part I, June 25, 1967, p.9, CBS Television Archives).
It sounds good for a national TV audience, doesn’t it, that you had to
work hard to find the weapon that murdered the president? But three
years earlier, while testifying under oath before the Warren
Commission, both Deputy Boone and Weitzman described a different
scene. “I had my [flash]light in my hand,” Boone told the Commission.
“I was slinging it around on the floor, and I caught a glimpse of the
rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so
pulled over on top of it” (3 H 293). Likewise, Weitzman testified, “I
was on the floor looking under the flat [sic] at the same time he was
looking on the top side and we saw the gun, I would say
simultaneously, and I said, ‘There it is’ and he started hollering,
‘We got it’” (7 H 107). Neither deputy said that they had to move any
boxes to see the rifle, as Weitzman later told CBS.
Boone told the Commission that after the Carcano was discovered, “some
of the other officers came over to look at it. I told them to stand
back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some
of the boxes, and not to touch the rifle” (3 H 293). Weitzman
concurred with Boone’s account. “[We] made a mantight barricade until
the crime lab came up and removed the gun itself” (7 H 107). Captain
Fritz testified that when he arrived, he told the officers present
“not to move [the rifle], not to touch it, not to move any of the
boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as Lieutenant Day could
get over there he made pictures of that” (4 H 205).*** The two close-
up crime scene photographs that were subsequently taken show that the
rifle had been slipped into a crevice between two rows of boxes, with
two of the boxes from one row overhanging, thereby slightly covering
the top of the rifle (CE 514, 17 H 224; CE 517, 17 H 226; see also CE
718, 17 H 501; Studebaker Exhibit C, 21 H 645). While Roffman cites
Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig’s testimony that both ends of the crevice
were closed off with boxes (conjuring up images that the rifle had
been effectively sealed in its hiding place by the gunman), crime
scene photographs actually show the crevice was open on both ends,
more so on the west side (closest to the rifle’s stock). In fact,
Lieutenant Day testified that the rifle was easily lifted from the
spot where it was placed, “It came out without moving any boxes. It
wasn’t wedged in” (4 H 262).
Obviously, Roffman’s contention that hiding the rifle added 15 to 20
seconds to the time it would have taken Oswald to get down to the
second-floor lunchroom is incorrect. Oswald didn’t have to squeeze
behind some boxes, carefully place the rifle on the floor, and
rearrange several boxes around it, as Roffman claimed, but merely had
to lean over a single row of cartons and slip the rifle into place. In
their 1998 reconstruction of Oswald’s movements, which included an
accurate mock-up of the area where the rifle was found and a
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle identical to the model Oswald used,
assassination researchers Todd W. Vaughan and Dale Myers determined
that it would have taken Oswald approximately 5 seconds to lean over
the row of boxes closest to the stairwell, slide the rifle into the
crevice from the west (barrel first), and begin his descent down the
stairs (Todd W. Vaughan, “The Baker/Oswald Encounter,” Unpublished
manuscript, March 1998, p.15).
In the end, Roffman calculates that it would have taken the sixth-
floor gunman “at least a minute and 35 seconds to a minute and 41
seconds” to reach the second floor lunchroom (21 to 23 seconds longer
than the Commission’s estimate), which means of course, that “had
Oswald been the assassin, he would have arrived in the lunchroom at
least five to eleven seconds after Baker reached the second floor,”
assuming Baker arrived in 85 seconds, and might even have arrived “at
least 25 seconds” after Baker, assuming Baker managed to ascend to the
second floor in 70 seconds. “Either case removes the possibility that
Oswald descended from the sixth floor,” Roffman wrote, “for on
November 22 he had unquestionably arrived in the lunchroom before
Baker” (Roffman, Presumed Guilty, pp.213–214). Unfortunately for
conspiracy theorists, Roffman’s calculations are not, as we have seen,
supported by the known facts, nor by commonsense inferences from those
facts.
In further support of Oswald’s purported alibi, Roffman invokes
angles, pathways, and lines of sight to ultimately conclude that when
Baker initially caught a glimpse of Oswald moving away from him as
Oswald walked through the vestibule into the lunchroom on the second
floor (3 H 250, 255, WCT Marrion L. Baker), Baker could only see, from
his position looking through the small window of the second-floor
door, into the “southeast portion” of the vestibule. But, Roffman
argues, the “only way” Oswald could have been in this area of the
vestibule visible to Baker is if he entered the vestibule through “the
southernmost door,” a door “accessible to him only had he come up from
the first floor,” not down from the sixth floor as the Warren
Commission postulated. (Roffman, Presumed Guilty, pp.217–221; location
of Baker when he saw Oswald: CE 1118, 22 H 85) But if Roffman concedes
that Baker was able to enter the vestibule leading to the lunchroom
after having entered the second floor from the northwest corner of the
building (coming up the stairs from the first floor), why couldn’t
Oswald enter the second floor from this same northwest corner of the
building (coming down the same stairs from the sixth floor) seconds
before Truly and Baker and proceed to the lunchroom through the same
vestibule door Baker eventually did? (3 H 256, WCT Marrion L. Baker)
*I say “may have” because it isn’t completely clear when the timing of
Baker began. Commissioner Allen Dulles wanted to know from what time
the reconstruction commenced. He asked Baker, “The last shot?” Baker
answered, “From the last shot.” Then Assistant Counsel David Belin
interjected, “The first shot,” the implication being that he was
correcting Baker. Dulles then asked, “The first shot?” and Baker said,
in contradiction to what he had just said, “The first shot.” (3 H 252)
Prior to these leading questions and answers, Baker, on his own, told
the Commission that he did not start to rev up his engine and proceed
to the Book Depository Building until after all three shots had been
fired (3 H 247).
**Events depicted in the Couch footage can be related, within a second
or so, to the same events photographed by Dave Wiegman, another
motorcade cameraman. Wiegman’s news film also captured the
presidential limousine just before it passed under the Triple
Underpass (at the equivalent of Zapruder frame 450).
***Harold Weisberg charged that the rifle was better hidden than the
crime scene photographs show, citing the testimony of Deputy Weitzman
to support his claim (Weisberg, Whitewash, p.36). When the Warren
Commission showed Deputy Weitzman several crime scene photographs of
the area where the rifle was found, he actually said several
contradictory things like, “I believe there were more books in here
[indicating where the rifle was found]”; “. . . at the time we found
the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun”; and “it was more
hidden than there [indicating a photograph, Weitzman Exhibit D]” (7 H
108; Weitzman Exhibit D, 21 H 723; see also CE 514, 17 H 224).
Although the Commission’s counsel didn’t specifically clear up what he
meant by these comments (giving added fodder to conspiracy theorists
like Weisberg), Weitzman’s remarks obviously refer to an isolated
close-up photograph (Weitzman Exhibit D, 21 H 723) of the area
immediately surrounding the rifle. When shown two other, wide-angle
views of the same area (Weitzman Exhibits E and F, 21 H 724), and
asked, “Does that look anything like the area where the gun was
found?” Weitzman answered, “Yes, sir; it does,” and “Yes, sir, as well
as I remember” (7 H 108).
Sandy McCroskey
> On Mar 29, 6:07 pm, Sandy McCroskey <gwmccros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 28, 10:11 pm, davidemerling <davidemerl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > > > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > > claims anymore?
>
> > > > certain and by filling in any unknown gaps with logical assumptions.
>
> > > > I'm curious, is there anybody in this forum that is still standing by any
> > > > of these "there wasn't time" claims?
>
> > > > David Emerling
> > > > Memphis, TN
>
> > > There are still problems with the time frame in all of these
> > > instances. There is enough of a problem to equal reasonable doubt.
>
>
> > Isn't Marsh's estimate that only 5 percent of CTs still stands by any
> > of these claims going to make you feel too lonely to hold out in this
> > position?
> > I know you like to think you're on the same page as "everybody else."
> > /sm
>
> What, I'm not popular? My views are in the minority? Jeez Sandy, with
> people like you in the world we wouldn't have Galileo or Einstein. Or
> maybe you do believe the sun revolves around the earth. I suggest you
> read Emerson's "Self-Reliance," and figure out how to stand up for
> what you believe.
>
Not sure how you got my meaning exactly backwards, but I was replying to
John Blubaugh, who constantly reiterates that he is in the majority
worldwide when it comes to believing that JFK was killed by a conspiracy.
Of course it doesn't matter how many people believe something, it can be
quite wrong nonetheless.
/sm
Sandy McCroskey
> conspiracy going to make you feel too lonely to hold out in this position?
If it had any effect at all, though I believe it shouldn't, it would
be to make me proud of my independence and intellectual integrity.
However, I don't think it's a brilliant deduction at all to realize
that Oswald killed Kennedy and that it is most likely that no one knew
of his plan. It's just, uh, common sense—which may be an ironic name
for something that often too few people have!
/sm
Sandy McCroskey
> On Mar 29, 11:25 pm, "WBurgha...@aol.com" <WBurgha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > people like you in the world we wouldn't have Galileo or Einstein. Or
> > maybe you do believe the sun revolves around the earth. I suggest you
> > read Emerson's "Self-Reliance," and figure out how to stand up for
> > what you believe.
>
>
> > p.s. I'll tell you one thing I agree with Judyth on...and I emphasize
> > one thing.... the research outlining the truth is Horne, and "JFK: The
> > Unspeakable...."
>
> > Warmst personal regards,
>
> > Burgundy
>
> Well said and right on the mark.
>
> JB
Actually, he totally misconstrued my meaning. As well as yours,
apparently.
/sm
Sandy McCroskey
It seems that's what the CTs have been trying to do—or claiming to have
already done—with the fairy tales about the grassy knoll, "back and to
the left," the supposed fourth shot in the phantasmic "acoustic
evidence"...
It would be more down to earth and believable by far to think that a
conspiracy might entail somebody influencing and/or somehow abetting
Oswald. After all, all the evidence points at Oswald and too many
outlandish scenarios are necessary to even attempt to make it all go away
or explain the uncanny congruence of all the little pieces in the puzzle
that comes together to show that Oswald was the killer.
But where is the evidence of Oswald being indoctrinated, egged on or
helped in any way with his rather slapdash, though ultimately effective,
plan to kill the president? I just haven't seen any.
/sandy
Jean Davison
> On Mar 29, 11:43 pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 10:15 pm, "WBurgha...@aol.com" <WBurgha...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 29, 2:23 pm, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > > > False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > > > thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > > > hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > > > fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > > > of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> > > > > hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
> > > > holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
> > > > did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
> > > > concluded that one bullet hit both men."
>
> > > > Jean
>
> > > That bullet hit Connaly and ended up in his wrist/thigh. But of course
> > > Specter had already concluded that there was only one shooter.... he
> > > concluded that early. He had to. So that leads you to one place.
>
> > Jean- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> It hit the chrome above the window in the front of the limo.
>
> JB-
So a bullet exiting JFK's throat missed Connally and flew up
to the windshield frame? I'd love to see that trajectory.
http://www.awesomestories.com/images/user/6e8d6b45b0.jpg
Jean
Jean Davison
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 10:20 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 3/29/2011 3:23 PM, Jean Davison wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> > > >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > >>> Warren Commission.
>
> > > >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > >> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> > > >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > Not according to Specter. In 1966 he told Life magazine that,
> > > > given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
> > > > holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
> > > > did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
> > > > concluded that one bullet hit both men."
>
> > > > Jean
>
>
> > > Fuhrman thinks the bullet which exited
> > > JFK's throat is the one which hit the chrome topping.
>
> > I don't care what Fuhrman thinks.
>
Like you agree with all conspiracy theorists? Really?
>
> > >Guess who was the
> > > person who proved that the chrome topping was not dented before Dealey
> > > Plaza? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't YOU.
>
> > Good for you! Give yourself a big pat on the back, Tony!
>
> > >So tell us again, what exactly
> > > is wrong with the Humes SBT?
>
> > Who cares?
>
> And therein lies the problem.
We were talking about Specter and holes in the limo when
Tony pulled Humes out of his hat. I call that "changing the
subject."
Jean
Jean Davison
> On Mar 30, 9:20 am, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 10:15 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 3/29/2011 12:47 PM, Chuck Schuyler wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> > > >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > >>> Warren Commission.
>
> > > >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > >> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one bullet would
> > > >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
> > > > shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>
> > > If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
> > > would mean conspiracy and that would spark WWIII leading to the death of
> > > 40 million Americans.
>
> > Why's that? Oswald had recently visited the Russian and Cuban
> > embassies and was a former defector to the USSR. If "they" wanted to drum
> > up WWIII, who needed a second shooter?
>
> > Jean
>
> know who has the patience, and perhaps, the interest. See the above
> chapter 8 from his book, it is heavily documented. I think he's nailed
> something but if he can be proven wrong, in error, mistaken or sloppily
> researched, it'd be good to know. Also watch the Couch film...is that not
> Baker sprinting to the TSBD?? You are good at this, have resources, and
> the mindset. Peace. Burgundy.
>
Thanks, Burgundy. Roffman has been discussed here in the past.
Baker is seen running to the TSBD... but when? Researchers have given
various estimates, but most I've seen say the Couch film puts Baker at the
Depository door around 20 to 24 seconds after the head shot. Roffman got
him there in about 10 seconds, if I remember correctly.
Notice in the Couch film how the crowd has scattered and the limo
is already out of sight. Baker is seen in the first few seconds running
from left to right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OYN8VLf_04
We'll never know exactly how long it took Truly and Baker to
get to the lunchroom, because they themselves didn't know.
"Heavily documented" doesn't necessarily mean "accurate."
Jean
Jean Davison
I need a rubber stamp saying "That's not what I said, Tony!"
I bet I could sell a lot of those.
Jean
Jean Davison
Your question makes me think you've read Mark Lane's Plausible
Denial. Have you?
Jean
Jason Burke
Uh, JB, what about your continual "learn to google"? It seems to be all
you have.
Jason Burke
Name some of us.
Obviously not John Blubaugh.
Or if he did, he certainly didn't learn / retain any of it.
Sandy McCroskey
More utterly unsupported assertions from John Blubaugh.
But I would actually expect what's happening in Z-frames 312 and 313
to be obvious and intuitively understandable to just *about* anyone,
without the need to recall any particular textbook formulas.
/sm
Sandy McCroskey
Put me down for a gross.
/sm
Anthony Marsh
Wrong tactic. Why aren't you disavowing Fuhrman and calling him a
conspiracy believer? Why are you embracing him? Can you explain how a
die-hard WC defender can believe that Kennedy was hit by the first
bullet and Connally hit by the second bullet?
>>
>>>> Guess who was the
>>>> person who proved that the chrome topping was not dented before Dealey
>>>> Plaza? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't YOU.
>>
>>> Good for you! Give yourself a big pat on the back, Tony!
>>
>>>> So tell us again, what exactly
>>>> is wrong with the Humes SBT?
>>
>>> Who cares?
>>
>> And therein lies the problem.
>
> We were talking about Specter and holes in the limo when
> Tony pulled Humes out of his hat. I call that "changing the
> subject."
>
The Humes SBT is an alternative to the WC's SBT.
Maybe you just aren't familiar with it. Maybe that's why I asked you to
explain it. To show that you aren't familiar with it.
> Jean
Anthony Marsh
Except that Jean seems to think that Castro knew of his plan.
Bud
This is strange, JB claimed that no one could refute Roffman.
Bud
Tony is the middleweight strawman champion of North America. He
doesn`t do so well addressing the points actually made by the person
he is responding to.
John Blubaugh
> On Mar 29, 11:19 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > > False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > > thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > > hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > > fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > > of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
>
> > > so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
> > > dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
>
> > > > hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > > > > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > > > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > > > claims anymore?
>
>
> > > Less and less as years go by. I suspect as this crop of WC
> > > dissenters die off there will few to pick up the cause. Eventually all
> > > that will be left standing is the WCR, and all the people who shook
> > > their fists at it will be forgotten.
>
> > The WC supporters are the ones dying off and no one will pick up there
> > cause. There is a lot of proof that the government lied about many of
> > the issues surrounding the case and that will feed CTs for all
> > eternity. Nutters are the doomed species here.
>
> WCR will stand it`s own long after all the dissenters fall silent. One
> generation and the critics are done.
>
\
You should wake up. The WCR has been throroughly discredited over the
years and its dissenters will never fall silent. The government lied
to the people. They will never give up and the WCR will continue to be
painted as the hoax it was.
JB
Jean Davison
Yet another claim you couldn't support to save your life,
because it's totally false.
Jean
Jean Davison
Will do. I had a feeling you might be interested in this
product.
Jean
Jean Davison
Which was rejected for the WC's SBT. It didn't make the cut.
> Maybe you just aren't familiar with it. Maybe that's why I asked you to
> explain it. To show that you aren't familiar with it.
>
So you were changing the subject. That's what I thought.
QUOTE:
>>>>
Mr. SPECTER - Now assuming that there were only three missiles fired, and
bearing in mind the positions of President Kennedy and Governor Connally
from the photograph marked Commission Exhibit 398, do you have an opinion
as to the source of the missiles which inflicted the wound on President
Kennedy marked 385-C to D, and the wound in Governor Connally's chest
which you have just referred to?
Commander HUMES - Yes. I would preface this statement by the following: As
I testified earlier in the afternoon, as much as we could ascertain from
our X-rays and physical examinations, this missile struck no bony
structures in traversing the body of the late President. Therefore, I
believe it was moving at its exit from the President's body at only very
slightly less than that velocity, so it was still traveling at great
speed.
I believe in looking at Exhibit 398, which purports to be at approximately
the time the President was struck, I see that Governor Connally is sitting
directly in front of the late President, and suggest the possibility that
this missile, having traversed the low neck of the late President, in fact
traversed the chest of Governor Connally.
>>>>
UNQUOTE
Humes' version didn't include the wrist and thigh wounds.
Jean
Coondog
I'm not so sure Blubaugh isn't actually Mark Lane. Think about it!
Bill Clarke
Anthony Marsh
Well, you just demanded that we say where the bullet went. But you won't
say where YOUR missed shot went. It's hypocrisy.
Anthony Marsh
>
> "Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:4d938277$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>> On 3/30/2011 10:20 AM, Jean Davison wrote:
>>> On Mar 29, 10:15 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 3/29/2011 12:47 PM, Chuck Schuyler wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times
>>>>>>> throughout
>>>>>>> the conspiracy community.
>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed
>>>>>>> by the
>>>>>>> Warren Commission.
>>>>
>>>>>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>>>>>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not
>>>>>> have been
>>>>>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to
>>>>>> reload and
>>>>>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and
>>>>>> the death
>>>>>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out, so now one
>>>>>> bullet would
>>>>>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>>>>
>>>>> hinged on whether or not Specter (or somebody else) could explain the
>>>>> shot sequence in a way to pin it on Oswald? How silly.
>>>>
>>>> If Specter was forced to conclude that there were two shooters that
>>>> death of
>>>> 40 million Americans.
>>>
>>> Why's that? Oswald had recently visited the Russian and Cuban
>>> embassies and was a former defector to the USSR. If "they" wanted to
>>> drum
>>> up WWIII, who needed a second shooter?
>>>
>>
>> For some people that is not enough. Like certain people here they
>> think the only way to prove conspiracy is to find a second shooter.
>>
>
> Jean
>
>
>
>
Because the rumors were that Castro was behind the conspiracy and that
might force the US to attack Cuba and the USSR told us that such a move
would mean WWIII.
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 29, 11:19 pm, John Blubaugh<jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Mar 29, 12:47 pm, Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 28, 11:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>>
>>>>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
>>>>> the conspiracy community.
>>
>>>>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
>>>>> Warren Commission.
>>
>>>> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
>>>> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
>>>> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
>>>> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
>>>> of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
>>
>>> so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
>>> dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
>>
>>>> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>>
>>>>> the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>>
>>>>> 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
>>>>> encounter with Officer Tippit.
>>
>>>>> Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
>>>>> claims anymore?
>>
>>
>>> Less and less as years go by. I suspect as this crop of WC
>>> dissenters die off there will few to pick up the cause. Eventually all
>>> that will be left standing is the WCR, and all the people who shook
>>> their fists at it will be forgotten.
>>
>> The WC supporters are the ones dying off and no one will pick up there
>> cause. There is a lot of proof that the government lied about many of
>> the issues surrounding the case and that will feed CTs for all
>> eternity. Nutters are the doomed species here.
>>
>
> Any species that doesn't understand the laws of physics better than
> you guys is going to have a hard time surviving on this planet.
> /sm
>
Silly. Billions of species before man have survived for a long time
without knowing the laws of physics.
Bud
> On Mar 30, 12:25 am, Jean Davison <jean.davis...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 10:20 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On 3/29/2011 3:23 PM, Jean Davison wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 28, 10:40 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >> On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > >>> This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > >>> the conspiracy community.
>
> > > >>> 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > >>> Warren Commission.
>
> > > >> False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > >> thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > >> hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > >> fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > >> hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > given the bullet's trajectory and the FBI report that there were no bullet
> > > > holes in the limo, the question became: "Where, if it didn't hit Connally,
> > > > did that bullet go? This is the single most compelling reason why I
> > > > concluded that one bullet hit both men."
>
> > > > Jean
>
No, he is wrong, which makes him one of yours.
> > >Guess who was the
> > > person who proved that the chrome topping was not dented before Dealey
> > > Plaza? I'll give you a hint. It wasn't YOU.
>
> > Good for you! Give yourself a big pat on the back, Tony!
>
> > >So tell us again, what exactly
> > > is wrong with the Humes SBT?
>
> > Who cares?
>
> And therein lies the problem.
Yah, that is one of the problems of discussing things with CTers,
they tend to bring up issues outside of what is being discussed and
expect LNers to follow them where ever their minds wander.
> JB
bigdog
> On Mar 30, 1:57 pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Is there no end to your baseless assumptions?- Hide quoted text -
>
> They are only baseless in your eyes.... and you can't see for the WC
> mud in them (I'm trying to be nice calling it mud).
>
They will be baseless until you are ready, willing, and able to provide
the basis for them.
bigdog
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 29, 11:19 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 29, 12:47 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
> > > > > On 3/28/2011 10:11 PM, davidemerling wrote:
>
> > > > > > This is a common theme that has been repeated countless times throughout
> > > > > > the conspiracy community.
>
> > > > > > 1. There wasn't time for Oswald to have taken the shots claimed by the
> > > > > > Warren Commission.
>
> > > > > False. The only reason that Specter invented the SBT was because he
> > > > > thought that JFK was not hit before Z-210 and Connally could not have been
> > > > > hit after Z-240. That did not give the shooter enough time to reload and
> > > > > fire two separate shots, hence conspiracy. Faced with WWIII and the death
> > > > > of 40 million Americans he had to find a way out,
>
> > > > so he looked at the evidence and determined what that was. Not as
> > > > dramatic as your rendering, but closer to the mark.
>
> > > > > hit both men. Not satisfied with the Humes SBT he invented his own.
>
> > > > > > the 2nd floor lunchroom for his encounter with Officer Baker.
>
> > > > > > 3. There wasn't time for Oswald to get from his boarding house to his
> > > > > > encounter with Officer Tippit.
>
> > > > > > Is there really anybody standing by any of these "there wasn't time"
> > > > > > claims anymore?
>
> > > > > There always will be.
>
> > > > Less and less as years go by. I suspect as this crop of WC
> > > > dissenters die off there will few to pick up the cause. Eventually all
> > > > that will be left standing is the WCR, and all the people who shook
> > > > their fists at it will be forgotten.
>
> > > The WC supporters are the ones dying off and no one will pick up there
> > > cause. There is a lot of proof that the government lied about many of
> > > the issues surrounding the case and that will feed CTs for all
> > > eternity. Nutters are the doomed species here.
>
> > > JB
>
> > Any species that doesn't understand the laws of physics better than
> > you guys is going to have a hard time surviving on this planet.
>
> You don't understand the laws of physics. You have never studies
> physics. Some of us have.
>
I don't think Sandy understands Blubaugh's Laws of Motion. None of us do.
They seem to have little in common with the laws of physics.
bigdog
> On Mar 30, 5:21 pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
The reason we keep asking for the same information over and over again is
because you keep making the same arguments over and over again without
EVER providing the basis for them. You claim you have done so in the past
but that simply isn't true. You NEVER do that because you can't. You
simply make stuff up and expect everybody to accept it because you say so.
Guess what? We don't.
The reason you don't ask me to support my arguments is because it makes
you look bad when I do it and you don't. I have never once refused to cite
the basis for my arguments no matter how many times I have made the same
cites in the past.
John Blubaugh
So where do you think the bullet that hit the windshield frame came from.
Since when did a nutter ever care about trajectory? The WC had to lie
about the position of the back wound so they could get it to exit the
neck.
JB
John Blubaugh
It is all I need until I post something new.
JB
bigdog
We wouldn't want them to. It's cheap entertainment.
> The government lied
> to the people.
There's a news flash. The problem is the bastards don't lie to us all the
time. Sometimes they cross us up by telling us the truth. The WCR is one
example of that. The HSCA tried to correct that when they lied to us and
told us there was a probable conspiracy. A lot of people bought that line
of BS. Fortunately, there are still quite a few of us who don't believe
everything the government tells us.
> They will never give up and the WCR will continue to be
> painted as the hoax it was.
>
And that paint is nothing but graffiti on the walls of history.