Oswald's Post Office Boxes
David Von Pein
Bill Kelly
> http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html
Thanks for that David, and for supplying the supporting documents and
records that indicate that what I say in #1 of my list, that there is
no witness, document, records or evidence that Oswald obtained the
rifle from the PO box 2915. He just shows up with it in the photo, and
everything that goes from Point A - Klines, to B. the PO Box 2915 to
C. Oswald, is congecture on the part of anyone.
More Unanswered Questions
If Oswald Did It
Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin
For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.
1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where they were
mailed to someone not entitled to receive mail at the box – A.J.
Hidell, and someone must have handed him the package(s) over the
counter and created some receipt. No witness, no receipt, no evidence
Oswald did this.
But according to DVP he must have because he is seen in the backyard
photo with the guns, therefore he must have got them.
That is despite the fact that he was at work at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval
on the day and the time he reportedly mailed and had postmarked the
money order for the rifle - March 12, and they day it was picked up -
March 25, both Tuesday workdays.
Unlike his job at the TSBD, where they didn't have a Time Card to
punch in, J/C/S was pretty serious about keeping track of what they're
employees were doing and for whom.
Also please note that on the morning that Oswald was supposed to have
mailed the money order for the rifle, he worked on a job for Sam
Bloom, the same guy who helped John Connally and the Secret Service
choose the Trade Mart over the Women's building and thus have the
motorcade drive by the TSBD. And you know, one of the six guys who
worked on the floor laying crew had previously worked as a Post Office
clerk. Maybe he's the one who handed the rifle over the counter to
Oswald/Hidell when he was supposed to working at J/C/S.?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=143843
March 25. When did Oswald pick up the rifle and pistol again?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1139&relPageId=646
Usually it is Conspiracy Theorists who accuse witnesses like Harry
Holmes, who also delayed Oswald leaving the DPD long enough for Ruby
to get into position to kill him. Holmes knew the PO regulation was to
maintain such records for two years, and he keeps saying "They" did
this and "They" did that. Who's "They." And what happened to the
person who handed the rifle over the counter to Oswald/Hidell? They
don't have Post Officer records who tell them who was working at that
PO that day?
Here, instead of J/C/S detailed records in Oswald's handwriting show
he was working that day, we are advised by the author of the
Chronology not to trust the Time Sheets of J/C/S becuase Oswald "lied"
on them. But they didn't ask Stovall if he allowed his employees to
leave the premesis and run around Dallas mailing money orders and
picking up weapons at the Post Office.
Chronology of Oswald in 1962-3 IN THE UNITED STATES
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=56967&relPageId=32
12 March 1963 (Tuesday)
Using a coupon clipped from the February issue of American Rifleman
magazine, Lee went to the main post office and ordered a high-powered
Italian carbine, called a Mannlicher-Carcano, from Klein's Sporting
Goods Company, a mail order house in Chicago. He sent the coupon air
mail with a postal money order for $21.78 for the rifle, $7.17 for the
scope, to be moounted by a gunsmith emplyed by Klein's and $1.50 for
postage and handling). The rifle was delivere to a "A. HIDELL, Post
Office Box 2915, Dallas, Texas.".
(FN: Oswald's time sheet on 12 March is evidence that he proably lied
sometimes about his hours. On the day he ordered the rifle, he signed
n from 8:00 a.m. to 5:15 p.m., (Exhibit no. 1855, Vol. 23, p. 605).
The U.S. Postal Inspector, Dallas, Harry D. Holmes, later testified
that OSWALD'S order for the rifle was issued "early on the morning of
March 12". This appears to have been the case, for the order was
imprinted on Klein's cash register March 13. Since the post office
window opoened only at 8:00 a.m., OSWALD probably lied when he signed
in then. Thus the time sheets have to be used with caution. M&L, .
486.
But to Bill Kelly, instead of Oswald lying on his time sheets, I would
have asked Stovall if Oswald could have left the premesis and if he
wrote "Sam Bloom" on the account sheet, could have had run copy or
graphics over to the Bloom office for approval during the half hour-
hour time that he said he worked on their project?
Checking with Bugliosi, who wrote 2,000 pages on how Oswald killed JFK
all by himself, you would think he would have devoted a few pages to
how Oswald obtained the rifle, but without any witnesses, documents,
records or any evidence he did so, the Bug simply writes:
”By coincidence, both weapons, pistol and carbine, were shipped to him
on the same day a little over a week later, on March 20. 1096 Marina
noticed the rifle several days later in Lee’s ‘office.’ He later
draped a coat over it for concealment.” p. 1097
Thanks to Robert and Greg for the J/C/S/ time sheet links and Rex at
Mary Ferrell for posting them.
BK
David Von Pein
>>> "March 12, and they day it was picked up - March 25, both Tuesday workdays." <<<
March 25 was a Monday, Bill.
And I see you're still pretending to know that Oswald would have had
to pick up BOTH weapons on the same day--and exactly Mon., March 25,
to boot.
Why are you saying this almost every day now, Bill? You have no idea
what day Oswald picked up the gun(s).
David Von Pein
>>> "Thanks for that David, and for supplying the supporting documents and records that indicate that what I say in #1 of my list, that there is no witness, document, records or evidence that Oswald obtained the rifle from the PO box 2915." <<<
OSWALD ordered the rifle from Klein's, paid for the rifle via a $21.45
money order that he (OSWALD) purchased and sent to Klein's, was
shipped a rifle to the same PO Box in Dallas that was rented by
OSWALD, and the rifle was not returned to Klein's.
To Bill Kelly, all of the above (in unison) somehow indicates that
OSWALD didn't pick up that rifle.
I guess nothing short of a photo of Oswald walking out of the P.O.
with the rifle in his mitts will satisfy William Kelly. (Of course,
that photo might have been faked by the Govt. too, you know. The Govt.
will never stop trying to pin some murders on hapless sap Oswald, of
course. No matter how much evidence they have to fake to do it. Right,
William K.?)
IOW--Conspiracy theorists like Bill will choose to believe ANY hunk of
silliness, instead of accepting the obvious truth about a double-
murderer they so desperately seek to exonerate.
What a goofy hobby CTers have.
David Von Pein
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg54308.html#msg54308
MILES SCULL SAID [BY WAY OF COPYING-AND-PASTING ANOTHER PERSON'S WORDS
INTO HIS POST, WITHOUT CREDITING THE REAL AUTHOR OF THESE WORDS]:
Fortunately, Postal Inspector Holmes is not the final authority on
Postal Regulations. The Postal Manual, Section 846.53b, states quite
unequivocally that "Part 3 of the box rental application, identifying
persons other than the applicant authorized to receive mail must be
retained for 2 years after the box is closed."
DVP SAID:
That's nothing but a flat-out lie, Miles.
You should really start doing at least a little bit of research on
your own before slapping together a copy-and-paste post like your last
one about the postal regulations.
First off, you're incorrect on the number of the postal regulation
that you think is going to save the conspiracy theorists from further
embarrassment concerning this issue. It's not 846.53b. The one you're
referring to is the regulation concerning post office boxes, and
that's 846.53h (pictured at the link below).
I also find it interesting to note that this particular error about
the number of the regulation is the exact same mistake made by
conspiracy theorist Rob Caprio in an earlier post in this thread. He,
too, seems to think it's 846.53b. (This probably means that Caprio and
Scull are relying on the same conspiracy-flavored kookbook or website
for their "facts" and information.)
Secondly, the copy-and-pasted quote you provided earlier -- "Part 3 of
the box rental application, identifying persons other than the
applicant authorized to receive mail must be retained for 2 years
after the box is closed" -- is nowhere to be found in Postal
Regulation 846.53h (and it's not in 846.53b either). So whoever put
those exact words inside quotation marks is nothing but a liar. Simple
as that.
What probably happened is this: The conspiracy theorist whom Rob
Caprio and Miles Scull trust so dearly with their information
concerning the 1963 United States Postal Regulations likely just
copied the main thrust of Ralph R. Rea's words that appear in Rea's
May 3, 1966, letter to Stewart Galanor.
As we can easily see when doing a comparison, the words are almost
identical in the two quotes. In fact, beginning with the word
"identifying", the quote used by Miles Scull is verbatim to the words
that we find in Ralph Rea's 1966 letter [which can be seen at the link
below].
And Rea's information is obviously not correct, because, as I
mentioned earlier, there's nothing at all in Postal Regulation 846.53h
that says that "Part 3" of a P.O. Box rental application must be
retained for two years after the box is closed.
So many conspiracy myths. And so many people willing to believe in
almost all of them--hook, line, sinker, and P.O. Box application.
Bud
> On Jul 16, 9:02 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html
>
> Thanks for that David, and for supplying the supporting documents and
> records that indicate that what I say in #1 of my list, that there is
> no witness, document, records or evidence that Oswald obtained the
> rifle from the PO box 2915. He just shows up with it in the photo, and
> everything that goes from Point A - Klines, to B. the PO Box 2915 to
> C. Oswald, is congecture on the part of anyone.
>
> More Unanswered Questions
> If Oswald Did It
>
> Things Oswald Must Have Done If He Was The Assassin
> For Which There Is No Evidence, Record or Witness.
>
> 1) Obtain the rifle/pistol from the Post Office, where they were
> mailed to someone not entitled to receive mail at the box – A.J.
> Hidell, and someone must have handed him the package(s) over the
> counter and created some receipt. No witness, no receipt, no evidence
> Oswald did this.
>
> But according to DVP he must have because he is seen in the backyard
> photo with the guns, therefore he must have got them.
Are you saying having a photo of him holding them means he didn`t
receive them?
> That is despite the fact that he was at work at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval
> on the day and the time he reportedly mailed and had postmarked the
> money order for the rifle - March 12, and they day it was picked up -
> March 25, both Tuesday workdays.
As DVP pointed out, the 25th was a Monday. How do you know what time
the money order was sent, I only see the date on it...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=139503
Jaggers/Chives/Stoval was located at 552 Browder street and the Main
Post Office was at 400 North Ervay street, a 14 minute walk according
to google. Oswald had a half hour for lunch, whats the problem? Or he
does it at 8 in the morning, and hustles to work, and comes in 10
minutes late, who would know?
> Unlike his job at the TSBD, where they didn't have a Time Card to
> punch in, J/C/S was pretty serious about keeping track of what they're
> employees were doing and for whom.
>
> Also please note that on the morning that Oswald was supposed to have
> mailed the money order for the rifle, he worked on a job for Sam
> Bloom, the same guy who helped John Connally and the Secret Service
> choose the Trade Mart over the Women's building and thus have the
> motorcade drive by the TSBD.
How do you know it`s the same Sam Bloom? And what could it mean if
it was?
> And you know, one of the six guys who
> worked on the floor laying crew had previously worked as a Post Office
> clerk. Maybe he's the one who handed the rifle over the counter to
> Oswald/Hidell when he was supposed to working at J/C/S.?
I think this conjecture is lacking something. Like everything.
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=sear...
>
> March 25. When did Oswald pick up the rifle and pistol again?
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=113...
>
> Usually it is Conspiracy Theorists who accuse witnesses like Harry
> Holmes, who also delayed Oswald leaving the DPD long enough for Ruby
> to get into position to kill him.
If you are looking for someone to blame, try Oswald, who wouldn`t
have been in custody at all if he hadn`t killed some people.
> Holmes knew the PO regulation was to
> maintain such records for two years, and he keeps saying "They" did
> this and "They" did that. Who's "They."
If he knew he`d be referring to them by name. They have an avalanche
of forms to deal with, you think he should be able to determine
exactly who touched what form?
> And what happened to the
> person who handed the rifle over the counter to Oswald/Hidell? They
> don't have Post Officer records who tell them who was working at that
> PO that day?
What day?
> Here, instead of J/C/S detailed records in Oswald's handwriting show
> he was working that day, we are advised by the author of the
> Chronology not to trust the Time Sheets of J/C/S becuase Oswald "lied"
> on them. But they didn't ask Stovall if he allowed his employees to
> leave the premesis and run around Dallas mailing money orders and
> picking up weapons at the Post Office.
Ordering weapons to kill people would probably be against company
policy, so it is likely Oswald didn`t ask for permission.
> Chronology of Oswald in 1962-3 IN THE UNITED STATES
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=569...
timstter
>
> March 25. When did Oswald pick up the rifle and pistol again?
>
>
> Usually it is Conspiracy Theorists who accuse witnesses like Harry
> Holmes, who also delayed Oswald leaving the DPD long enough for Ruby
> to get into position to kill him. Holmes knew the PO regulation was to
> maintain such records for two years, and he keeps saying "They" did
> this and "They" did that. Who's "They." And what happened to the
> person who handed the rifle over the counter to Oswald/Hidell? They
> don't have Post Officer records who tell them who was working at that
> PO that day?
>
> Here, instead of J/C/S detailed records in Oswald's handwriting show
> he was working that day, we are advised by the author of the
> Chronology not to trust the Time Sheets of J/C/S becuase Oswald "lied"
> on them. But they didn't ask Stovall if he allowed his employees to
> leave the premesis and run around Dallas mailing money orders and
> picking up weapons at the Post Office.
>
> Chronology of Oswald in 1962-3 IN THE UNITED STATES
>
Marina Oswald was sent mail to Oswald's PO Box, Bill. The Soviets
supplied carbon copies of what they sent to Dean Rusk:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0260a.htm
Do you think the average PO worker is going to be REALLY discerning
about who the mail is addressed to @ the average PO Box, Bill? I don't
think so.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
Bud
> http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,2853.msg54308.ht...
>
> MILES SCULL SAID [BY WAY OF COPYING-AND-PASTING ANOTHER PERSON'S WORDS
> INTO HIS POST, WITHOUT CREDITING THE REAL AUTHOR OF THESE WORDS]:
>
> Fortunately, Postal Inspector Holmes is not the final authority on
> Postal Regulations. The Postal Manual, Section 846.53b, states quite
> unequivocally that "Part 3 of the box rental application, identifying
> persons other than the applicant authorized to receive mail must be
> retained for 2 years after the box is closed."
>
> DVP SAID:
>
> That's nothing but a flat-out lie, Miles.
>
> You should really start doing at least a little bit of research on
> your own before slapping together a copy-and-paste post like your last
> one about the postal regulations.
>
> First off, you're incorrect on the number of the postal regulation
> that you think is going to save the conspiracy theorists from further
> embarrassment concerning this issue. It's not 846.53b. The one you're
> referring to is the regulation concerning post office boxes, and
> that's 846.53h (pictured at the link below).
>
>
> I also find it interesting to note that this particular error about
> the number of the regulation is the exact same mistake made by
> conspiracy theorist Rob Caprio in an earlier post in this thread. He,
> too, seems to think it's 846.53b. (This probably means that Caprio and
> Scull are relying on the same conspiracy-flavored kookbook or website
> for their "facts" and information.)
>
> Secondly, the copy-and-pasted quote you provided earlier -- "Part 3 of
> the box rental application, identifying persons other than the
> applicant authorized to receive mail must be retained for 2 years
> after the box is closed" -- is nowhere to be found in Postal
> Regulation 846.53h (and it's not in 846.53b either). So whoever put
> those exact words inside quotation marks is nothing but a liar. Simple
> as that.
>
> What probably happened is this: The conspiracy theorist whom Rob
> Caprio and Miles Scull trust so dearly with their information
> concerning the 1963 United States Postal Regulations likely just
> copied the main thrust of Ralph R. Rea's words that appear in Rea's
> May 3, 1966, letter to Stewart Galanor.
>
> As we can easily see when doing a comparison, the words are almost
> identical in the two quotes. In fact, beginning with the word
> "identifying", the quote used by Miles Scull is verbatim to the words
> that we find in Ralph Rea's 1966 letter [which can be seen at the link
> below].
>
>
> And Rea's information is obviously not correct, because, as I
> mentioned earlier, there's nothing at all in Postal Regulation 846.53h
> that says that "Part 3" of a P.O. Box rental application must be
> retained for two years after the box is closed.
>
> So many conspiracy myths. And so many people willing to believe in
> almost all of them--hook, line, sinker, and P.O. Box application.
I`m extremely skeptical of the information under the part you are
addressing in the Rea letter, where it says that mail in a name other
than the people listed to receive mail at that P.O. box would be
returned. I don`t believe that at all, I went to the main branch
library here in philly, but they didn`t have a book with the postal
regulations. I`ve never seen the people who put the mail into P.O.
boxes have a list in their hands to check who is entitled to get mail
from any particular box when they put mail in them. I`m fairly certain
it is treated like mail to a house, and if the mail is delivered to
the location it is addressed to, with no regard for the name on it.
Bill Kelly
Okay, Dave, I'll back off the March 25 date to pick up the rifle and
pistol packages, I'm only using that date because its the one that is used
in the official chronology and generally accepted by LNs.
I'm just saying that there is no record, witness or evidence that Oswald
actually picked up the rifle and pistol packages from the Post Office at
any time, and that the official records that say he did have no evidence
to back up the assertion.
And that's only one, Number one on my list of things that Oswald is
accused of having done for which there is no witness or document, or
record or evidence of any kind.
I don't have any idea of when Oswald actually picked up the weapons you
accuse him of using to kill the President, and neither do you.
So you acknowledge that my first, number one assertion that there is no
evidence, witness or record of Oswald picking up the weapons, right?
Thanks for being honest with yourself,
Bill Kelly
Bill Kelly
> >>> "Thanks for that David, and for supplying the supporting documents
and records that indicate that what I say in #1 of my list, that there is
no witness, document, records or evidence that Oswald obtained the rifle
from the PO box 2915." <<<
>
> OSWALD ordered the rifle from Klein's, paid for the rifle via a $21.45
> money order that he (OSWALD) purchased and sent to Klein's, was
> shipped a rifle to the same PO Box in Dallas that was rented by
> OSWALD, and the rifle was not returned to Klein's.
>
> To Bill Kelly, all of the above (in unison) somehow indicates that
> OSWALD didn't pick up that rifle.
Hi David,
I just wanted you to know that on your Ruth Paine page you have the wrong
date - 11/22/63 twice of when she went into the garage on the night before
the assassination and found the lights on, evidence used to indicate that
Oswald went to Irving that night to pick up the rifle. That had to be the
11/21/63, right?
And another thing, I say there is no evidence Oswald actually picked up
the weapons at the Post Office, not that he didn't do it, though it is
certainly a possiblity that someone else did. Say Gary Taylor. His address
is on the PO box application, and whoever took the note from the box and
went into the back of the Post Office to pick up the packages and hand
them over the counter - that person would have to give the packages to
Oswald posing as Hidell, or someone else posing as Hidell, or someone with
a key to the PO Box who Oswald had asked to pick up the packages - which
could be done if the PO clerk just thought that if the guy had a key to
the box to get the notice he had to be okay and didn't ask for any id.
What other possibilities are there, especially any non-conspiratorial
possibilities, like Oswald at a different time, Gary Taylor - or even
Marina?
>
> I guess nothing short of a photo of Oswald walking out of the P.O.
> with the rifle in his mitts will satisfy William Kelly.
BK: Na, I don't need positive proof, just something reasonable.
(Of course,
> that photo might have been faked by the Govt. too, you know.
BK: I believe the back yard photos are real. I don't think the Z-film has
been altered, and I don't blame the government for anything. JFK was
killed by individual human beings with names, not generic government
acronoynm agencies.
> The Govt.
> will never stop trying to pin some murders on hapless sap Oswald, of
> course. No matter how much evidence they have to fake to do it. Right,
> William K.?)
>
BK: They don't really have to fake anything. All they had to do was name
Oswald the suspect and kill him before they went to court. Once JFK got to
Dealey Plaza, all they had to do was kill JFK and blame Oswald, and
whatever happened, happened.
> IOW--Conspiracy theorists like Bill will choose to believe ANY hunk of
> silliness, instead of accepting the obvious truth about a double-
> murderer they so desperately seek to exonerate.
>
BK: Lee Harvey Oswald was not a double-murder, and I don't care if he
killed the President or not so I don't desperately seek to exonerate him
or anybody. Oswald was technically classified as a Spree Killer and
assassin, someone who murders victims at different locations, and someone
who kills a person of political power.
The questions are whether or not Oswald was an assassin or patsy, and
whether he acted alone or with others. I can accept Oswald was the lone
assassin, but if he was, I reject your profile of him being a lone nut
loser, because he must have been really good to fool so many people all by
himself.
> What a goofy hobby CTers have.
BK: Not a hobby, a civic duty. And I'm not a Conspiracy Theorist. I hate
CTs more than you do, especially those who claim the Cubans, the Mafia or
the CIA is behind the assassination. There are endless possible scenarios
one can imagine, but it only happened one way, and that is what should be
detected and determined.
Bill Kelly
>
> Do you think the average PO worker is going to be REALLY discerning
> about who the mail is addressed to @ the average PO Box, Bill? I don't
> think so.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Brennan
> Sydney, Australia
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Tim, I agree, Marina maybe even had a key, as Oswald left her one with
the note before embarking on the Walker mission, and in that note he
mentions the post office on Evary, and noted that it where he had her
waite at the nearby pharmacy while he went to empty the PO box. So she had
a key, at least for awhile, and there may have been two keys, and she may
have received mail there too.
And Gary Taylor's address is the same as the address Oswald gave to apply
for the box, so he could have retreived the mail from there if he had a
key.
And no, the average PO worker is not going to be that discerning, but I
believe that if they at any time on any day handed over two packages that
contained a rifle and a pistol, after the assassination they would
remember. And the Post Office could have located witnesses to this
transfer if there were any. But there aren't.
And one of the six guys who were paid by the hour in cash and didn't keep
a time card for, who laid the new floor on the Sixth Floor of the TSBD,
one of those guys had previously worked as a postal clerk in Dallas. I
will tell you his name when I get a chance to look it up.
In any case, #1 on my list - that there is no witness, record or evidence
of any kind that Lee Harvey Oswald picked up the weapons said to have used
to kill the President from the Post Office?
And yes, John, I will take a bet with anyone that the Sam Bloom that
Oswald wrote down on his J/C/S work sheet in his handwriting is the same,
the one and the Same Sam Bloom who was instrumental in getting the Trade
Center chosen over the Women's Building as the site of the doomed
luncheon, and thus steer the motorcade past the TSBD during the one hour
that JFK could have been killed. Any takers that it's a different Sam
Bloom?
Bill Kelly
Bill Kelly
>
Yo! Bud! I agree, I think the PO clerks would have handed the rifle and
pistol over to anybody who asked for them, and not bothered to take
notice, as this was Texas, 1963, before such clerks became famous for
"going postal," as Oswald is unfairly being accused of doing.
Yo, Bud, you from Philly? There's almost as many Philly connections to the
assassination as there are in Dallas. You know Oswald had four Philly
addresses in his little black notebook? If he really killed the President,
don't you think they would have been checked out?
BK
Bud
> On Jul 17, 9:41 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> "March 12, and they day it was picked up - March 25, both Tuesday workdays." <<<
>
> > March 25 was a Monday, Bill.
>
> > And I see you're still pretending to know that Oswald would have had
> > to pick up BOTH weapons on the same day--and exactly Mon., March 25,
> > to boot.
>
> > Why are you saying this almost every day now, Bill? You have no idea
> > what day Oswald picked up the gun(s).
>
> Okay, Dave, I'll back off the March 25 date to pick up the rifle and
> pistol packages, I'm only using that date because its the one that is used
> in the official chronology and generally accepted by LNs.
All that is known for sure is when they were shipped, the 20th.
> I'm just saying that there is no record, witness or evidence that Oswald
> actually picked up the rifle and pistol packages from the Post Office at
> any time, and that the official records that say he did have no evidence
> to back up the assertion.
And what you are saying is wrong, there is evidence he picked up the
rifle. The fact that he had the rifle is evidence he picked it up.
Bud
<snicker> You have to support your claims, it isn`t up to others to
disprove them.
But it probably is, Sam Bloom was in advertising, and he might need
J/C/S`s services (quite a bit, Oswald worked on Bloom work just about
every day, sometimes twice a day.), so what? Again, you have to take
this stuff somewhere, not just pretend that it in and off itself this
information shows anything suspicious.
> Bill Kelly
David Von Pein
>>> "Okay, Dave, I'll back off the March 25 date to pick up the rifle and pistol packages, I'm only using that date because it's the one that is used in the official chronology and generally accepted by LNs." <<<
What "official chronology" has "March 25" as THE EXACT DATE that
Oswald picked up BOTH the rifle and pistol? I've never heard or seen
such an "official chronology" in my life.
(You wouldn't be pulling stuff out of your hat, now would you Bill?)
>>> "So you acknowledge that my first, number one assertion that there is no evidence, witness or record of Oswald picking up the weapons, right?" <<<
There's no "witness" or "record", no. To that I agree. Naturally.
But there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to establish as
rock-solid FACT that Oswald did pick up Rifle C2766 from HIS OWN POST
OFFICE BOX. (I emphasize those last words for a reason--because just
ordinardy common sense and ODDS are going to suggest that the person
who ordered and paid for the rifle and pistol and had them mailed to
his own PO Box, is probably also the person who fetched them from HIS
OWN POST OFFICE BOX.)
Oswald was photographed with the Carcano within days of it being
mailed to OSWALD'S POST OFFICE BOX.
Does a person need to be an expert in high mathematics to figure this
one out, William? I think not.
P.S. -- You're obviously a sharp man, Bill. So let me ask you this --
Why on Earth do you spend so much time trying to prove something that
is so obviously stupid--i.e., the notion that Oswald himself did not
pick up the rifle and pistol, even though those two items were
positively ordered and paid for by LHO and were positively shipped by
two separate companies to LHO's own PO Box?
David Von Pein
WILLIAM KELLY SAID:
>>> "Hi David, I just wanted you to know that on your Ruth Paine page
[http://Ruth-Paine.blogspot.com] you have the wrong date - 11/22/63 twice
of when she went into the garage on the night before the assassination and
found the lights on, evidence used to indicate that Oswald went to Irving
that ni ght to pick up the rifle. That had to be 11/21/63, right?" <<<
DAVID R. VON PEIN SAID:
Thank you for noticing that error, Bill. (It's nice to know that
someone is actually reading some of my JFK ramblings on the Internet.)
I have corrected the mistake about the date, although I only found one
such error in my Ruth Paine blog, not two. If you could point out the
second error, I'll fix that one too. The one I fixed is in this passage
(which has the corrected date here):
"And here we have some additional deeply-detailed data and info
being revealed by way of Albert Jenner's "in Ruth's house" WC session with
Mrs. Paine -- this segment of testimony dealing with the precise wattage
of the light bulb that was left burning in Paine's garage on the night of
11/21/63..."
http://Ruth-Paine.blogspot.com
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "I say there is no evidence Oswald actually picked up the weapons at
the Post Office, not that he didn't do it, though it is certainly a
possiblity that someone else did. Say Gary Taylor. His address is on the
PO box application, and whoever took the note from the box and went into
the back of the Post Office to pick up the packages and hand them over the
counter - that person would have to give the packages to Oswald posing as
Hidell, or someone else posing as Hidell, or someone with a key to the PO
Box who Oswald had asked to pick up the packages - which could be done if
the PO clerk just thought that if the guy had a key to the box to get the
notice he had to be okay and didn't ask for any id. What other
possibilities are there, especially any non-conspiratorial possibilities,
like Oswald at a different time, Gary Taylor - or even Marina?" <<<
DVP SAID:
Okay. But the by far the MOST LIKELY answer is that the PERSON WHO ORDERED
AND PAID FOR THE GUNS AND WOULD HAVE BEEN EXPECTING THOSE GUNS TO ARRIVE
IN LATE MARCH 1963 AT HIS OWN POST OFFICE BOX is probably the person who
went to the Post Office himself to pick them up.
Why bring Gary Taylor into the mix needlessly? He didn't order and pay for
the rifle and the revolver. Oswald did.
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "I believe the back yard photos are real. I don't think the Z-film has
been altered, and I don't blame the government for anything. JFK was
killed by individual human beings with names, not generic government
acronym agencies." <<<
DVP SAID:
Congrats, Bill! Welcome to the world of LNers!
Via your last comments above, it almost looks like you've been converted
(except for the pluralization you utilized when you said "individual human
beings with names"). There's no need for the plural to be used there, of
course. Oswald was only ONE single person. Not two or more. :)
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "They don't really have to fake anything. All they had to do was name
Oswald the suspect and kill him before they went to court. Once JFK got to
Dealey Plaza, all they had to do was kill JFK and blame Oswald, and
whatever happened, happened." <<<
But why the need to complicate the uncomplicated, Bill?
It was OSWALD'S rifle, OSWALD'S shells, OSWALD'S bullet fragments in the
limousine, OSWALD'S prints deep inside the Sniper's Nest, OSWALD'S lies
that he told to the police, OSWALD left the building within minutes of the
shooting, OSWALD shot Tippit, OSWALD was acting "funny" in front of Johnny
Brewer's shoe store, and it was OSWALD who pulled a gun on Officer
McDonald in the theater.
If those are the actions of an innocent patsy....please wake me up when
sanity has been restored. Because given the above laundry list, OSWALD is
as guilty as he can possibly be.
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "Lee Harvey Oswald was not a double-murder[er]..." <<<
DVP SAID:
Oh, shucks! Just when Bill Kelly was making a little headway toward
seeing the obvious truth, he goes and says something silly again.
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "The questions are whether or not Oswald was an assassin or patsy, and
whether he acted alone or with others. I can accept Oswald was the lone
assassin, but if he was, I reject your profile of him being a lone nut
loser, because he must have been really good to fool so many people all by
himself." <<<
DVP SAID:
I'm not quite sure what you mean here, Bill. Oswald didn't "fool" anybody.
(Except perhaps a bunch of conspiracy theorists; Oswald certainly fooled
them into actually believing him when he said he was "just a patsy".)
But he certainly didn't "fool" any of the authorities or investigative
committees that looked into the murders. Far from it. Oswald signed his
name to both of his murders by leaving his popcorn trail of evidence for
both the JFK and Tippit slayings.
So, besides the gullible CTers, who was it that you think Oswald was
"fooling" in November 1963?
Or are you possibly referring to Oswald being able to mask his identity as
"Future Presidential Assassin" in the days/weeks/months leading up to
11/22/63? Is that what you mean by Oswald being able to "fool so many
people all by himself"?
DVP SAID [IN AN EARLIER POST]:
>>> "What a goofy hobby CTers have." <<<
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "Not a hobby, a civic duty." <<<
DVP SAID:
You have a civic duty to embrace silly ideas?
That's weird, Bill.
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "And I'm not a Conspiracy Theorist." <<<
DVP SAID:
You could've fooled me.
BILL KELLY SAID:
>>> "I hate CTs more than you do, especially those who claim the Cubans,
the Mafia or the CIA is behind the assassination. There are endless
possible scenarios one can imagine, but it only happened one way, and that
is what should be detected and determined." <<<
DVP SAID:
That's already been done -- back in '63 and '64. You just don't want to
believe the DPD, FBI, and WC got it right. You prefer your own
explanations better than the perfectly reasonable ones supplied by the
Dallas Police, FBI, and Warren Commission.
Right, Bill?
Bud
Can`t address the ideas raised, Bill? Why the strawman about handing
them to anybody when it has been explained to you that the person who had
the P.O. box would get a note left in the P.O. box that a package too big
for the box could be had at the desk? So, no, they don`t give it to
anyone, Oswald would get a note inside his box.. But this is just
misdirection away the bad ideas you expressed that you can`t support,
isn`t it?
> Yo, Bud, you from Philly?
Yah. You are originally from Camden, Philadelphia`s armpit, right?
> There's almost as many Philly connections to the
> assassination as there are in Dallas. You know Oswald had four Philly
> addresses in his little black notebook?
I saw that. I was thinking about checking them out once.
> If he really killed the President,
> don't you think they would have been checked out?
Ah, no Bill, I don`t. Don`t think they checked out the people in
OJ`s address book either.
> BK
tomnln
"Bill Kelly" <billk...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8053263e-c753-4cff...@j8g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
timstter
Hi Bill,
I think the bottom line is that a numbered rifle was sent to Oswald's PO
Box in Dallas, he was photographed holding this rifle by his wife and it
was the same rifle that was retrieved from his place of employment after
the shooting, a place where he had left ample evidence that he was the
culprit.
Silly theories like a postal worker should remember in November giving a
parcel to someone in March don't fly in the face of the physical evidence
that the rifle was in Oswald's possession.
Bill Kelly
Hi Tim,
I don't think that it's a silly conspiracy theory to ask for any
document, record or witness to the accussed assassin picking up the
weapons he is accused of killing the President and a cop with from the
Post Office, who were required by law to keep such records for two
years.
And since the weapon found at the scene of one of the crimes can be
associated with Oswald from the photo, his wife, DeMohrenschildt and
his ownership of the PO box the weapons were sent to, why do we have
to assume that Oswald himself picked up the weapons?
Especially if he is certified by his own handwriting as working the
days the money order was mailed for the rifle and the days that he
said to have picked up the rifle from the PO box, why couldn't he have
given the key to the PO Box and the Hidel ID to someone else to pick
up for him?
The Official Oswald Chronology uses his J/C/S worksheet to narrow down
when he took the photos of the Walker house, so why can't we use them
to narrow down when he mailed the money order and picked up the
weapons?
Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
ownership?
The silly theory isn't why no one from the PO remembers handing the
rifle over the counter to the future assassin of the President, the
silly theory is why isn't there ANY record, document or witness to the
accused assassin doing it?
I would think that anyone would remember if they handed Ned Kelly a
weapon that he used to kill a cop. Why wouldn't they remember Oswald
after the assassination if not before?
I think they would if they did, and nobody seems to have done so.
Bill Kelly
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
>weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
>the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
>would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
>ownership?
Interesting observation.
Some LNs (John McAdams, for example) believe Oswald only decided to
shoot JFK a few days before Nov. 22, 1963.
These LNs don't believe the Hidell alias has anything to do with a
long-term plan to assasinate JFK. Oswald's plan was spur of the
moment, so to speak.
Perhaps, Oswald had an idea in the back of his head that someday he
might use the weapon for a nefarious purpose (shooting a human being,
for example. If so,) then the Hidell alias might come in handy.
OF course, if that was his intent, keeping the Hidell card in his
wallet was rather stupid, or a monumental oversight on his part.
"Ooops."
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Bud
> On 22 Jul 2010 10:59:45 -0400, Bill Kelly <billkel...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
> >weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
> >the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
> >would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
> >ownership?
>
> Interesting observation.
>
> Some LNs (John McAdams, for example) believe Oswald only decided to
> shoot JFK a few days before Nov. 22, 1963.
>
> These LNs don't believe the Hidell alias has anything to do with a
> long-term plan to assasinate JFK. Oswald's plan was spur of the
> moment, so to speak.
>
> Perhaps, Oswald had an idea in the back of his head that someday he
> might use the weapon for a nefarious purpose (shooting a human being,
> for example. If so,) then the Hidell alias might come in handy.
He bought the rifle to shoot Walker, get up to speed, Peter.
> OF course, if that was his intent, keeping the Hidell card in his
> wallet was rather stupid, or a monumental oversight on his part.
If there was a dragnet to capture Oswald, perhaps flashing the Hidell ID
could get him out of trouble (perhaps he thought he was known to police
for his earlier murder when Tippit stopped him, and tried to use the Hidel
ID on Tippit without success). CTers rarely think of Oswald as a man whos
first priority is accomplishing his goals, not avoiding prosecution. Jail
or death was not a deterrent when he embarked on these adventures, he was
willing to suffer these things to accomplish his goals.
> "Ooops."
>
> Peter Fokes,
> Toronto
Bud
When they have a package too big to fit in a P.O. box and hand it to the
person personally, they have to make a record of that exchange and keep it
for two years. Or are you mixing concepts again?
> And since the weapon found at the scene of one of the crimes can be
> associated with Oswald from the photo, his wife, DeMohrenschildt and
> his ownership of the PO box the weapons were sent to, why do we have
> to assume that Oswald himself picked up the weapons?
Why would we need to imagine someone else picking up the rifle
Oswald ordered and giving it to Oswald?
Only someone with a key to the box could get the the note that told
them they had an oversized package waiting for them at the counter.
> Especially if he is certified by his own handwriting
You mean the known liar? He couldn`t have gotten the money order at
the post office when they opened at 8, hurried to work and then
claimed on his timesheet that he arrived at 8?
> as working the
> days the money order was mailed for the rifle and the days that he
> said to have picked up the rifle from the PO box, why couldn't he have
> given the key to the PO Box and the Hidel ID to someone else to pick
> up for him?
You don`t understand the basics about the PO box, even after it has been
explained to you. You don`t need ID, you need the note they leave in the
PO box alerting the owner of the box that there is mail that couldn`t fit
in the box that can be had at the counter.
> The Official Oswald Chronology uses his J/C/S worksheet to narrow down
> when he took the photos of the Walker house, so why can't we use them
> to narrow down when he mailed the money order and picked up the
> weapons?
If he punched in and out on a machine you might have a case. You
don`t, so you don`t.
> Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
> weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
> the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
> would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
> ownership?
Because at the time in order to buy a firearm from a store you
needed license or registration. Oswald had neither.
> The silly theory isn't why no one from the PO remembers handing the
> rifle over the counter to the future assassin of the President, the
> silly theory is why isn't there ANY record, document or witness to the
> accused assassin doing it?
There is no paperwork because no paperwork is generated in the
process. There is no witness because human beings don`t remember every
action or mundane encounter during the course of their day months
later.
> I would think that anyone would remember if they handed Ned Kelly a
> weapon that he used to kill a cop. Why wouldn't they remember Oswald
> after the assassination if not before?
Why do you think they must?
> I think they would if they did, and nobody seems to have done so.
Yet that doesn`t make you question your assumption. Odd.
> Bill Kelly
Peter Fokes
>On Jul 22, 11:18 am, Peter Fokes <pfo...@rogers.com> wrote:
>> On 22 Jul 2010 10:59:45 -0400, Bill Kelly <billkel...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
>> >weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
>> >the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
>> >would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
>> >ownership?
>>
>> Interesting observation.
>>
>> Some LNs (John McAdams, for example) believe Oswald only decided to
>> shoot JFK a few days before Nov. 22, 1963.
>>
>> These LNs don't believe the Hidell alias has anything to do with a
>> long-term plan to assasinate JFK. Oswald's plan was spur of the
>> moment, so to speak.
>>
>> Perhaps, Oswald had an idea in the back of his head that someday he
>> might use the weapon for a nefarious purpose (shooting a human being,
>> for example. If so,) then the Hidell alias might come in handy.
>
> He bought the rifle to shoot Walker, get up to speed, Peter.
I don't mind your help.
What evidence is available prior to Oswald placing the order for the
rifle that he specifically intended to use that rifle to shoot at
Walker?
>
>> OF course, if that was his intent, keeping the Hidell card in his
>> wallet was rather stupid, or a monumental oversight on his part.
>
> If there was a dragnet to capture Oswald, perhaps flashing the Hidell ID
>could get him out of trouble
> (perhaps he thought he was known to police
>for his earlier murder when Tippit stopped him, and tried to use the Hidel
>ID on Tippit without success).
What evidence is available proving Oswald flashed the Hidell ID at
Tippit?
> CTers rarely think of Oswald as a man whos
>first priority is accomplishing his goals, not avoiding prosecution.
I'll let you speak for CTs, but not for me. It is always wiser to
speak for yourself though.
Why would anyone think Oswald would not want to accomplish his goals?
Do you believe Oswald tried to escape? And if you do believe he tried
to escape, why did he do so? To avoid capture and prosecution?
> Jail
>or death was not a deterrent when he embarked on these adventures, he was
>willing to suffer these things to accomplish his goals.
So you believe he was not trying to avoid capture, or death?
Why did he leave the TSBD then? Why didn't he just surrender?
>> "Ooops."
>>
>> Peter Fokes,
>> Toronto
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
>
Anthony Marsh
> On 22 Jul 2010 22:44:13 -0400, Bud<sirs...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 22, 11:18 am, Peter Fokes<pfo...@rogers.com> wrote:
>>> On 22 Jul 2010 10:59:45 -0400, Bill Kelly<billkel...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
>>>> weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
>>>> the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
>>>> would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
>>>> ownership?
>>>
>>> Interesting observation.
>>>
>>> Some LNs (John McAdams, for example) believe Oswald only decided to
>>> shoot JFK a few days before Nov. 22, 1963.
>>>
>>> These LNs don't believe the Hidell alias has anything to do with a
>>> long-term plan to assasinate JFK. Oswald's plan was spur of the
>>> moment, so to speak.
>>>
>>> Perhaps, Oswald had an idea in the back of his head that someday he
>>> might use the weapon for a nefarious purpose (shooting a human being,
>>> for example. If so,) then the Hidell alias might come in handy.
>>
>> He bought the rifle to shoot Walker, get up to speed, Peter.
>
> I don't mind your help.
>
> What evidence is available prior to Oswald placing the order for the
> rifle that he specifically intended to use that rifle to shoot at
> Walker?
>
Not sure. Maybe attending the meetings at Walker's house and taking so
many pictures of it. What some people call casing the joint.
Peter Fokes
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Indeed. Although it is not direct evidence, we could make a strong
circumstantial case Oswald was preparing to do harm to Walker by
pointing out the apparent short timeline between Oswald's photographic
excursion to Walker's house and his subsequent ordering of rifle.
Is that your strongest evidence though?
PF
>>>
>
Bud
> On 22 Jul 2010 22:44:13 -0400, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jul 22, 11:18 am, Peter Fokes <pfo...@rogers.com> wrote:
> >> On 22 Jul 2010 10:59:45 -0400, Bill Kelly <billkel...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
> >> >weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
> >> >the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
> >> >would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
> >> >ownership?
>
> >> Interesting observation.
>
> >> Some LNs (John McAdams, for example) believe Oswald only decided to
> >> shoot JFK a few days before Nov. 22, 1963.
>
> >> These LNs don't believe the Hidell alias has anything to do with a
> >> long-term plan to assasinate JFK. Oswald's plan was spur of the
> >> moment, so to speak.
>
> >> Perhaps, Oswald had an idea in the back of his head that someday he
> >> might use the weapon for a nefarious purpose (shooting a human being,
> >> for example. If so,) then the Hidell alias might come in handy.
>
> > He bought the rifle to shoot Walker, get up to speed, Peter.
>
> I don't mind your help.
>
> What evidence is available prior to Oswald placing the order for the
> rifle that he specifically intended to use that rifle to shoot at
> Walker?
The photos he took of Walkers house prior to the attempt. He kept a
notebook where he made plans for the attempt, but he burned it at Marina`s
suggestion. That he ordered the camera using his "Hidel" alias indicates
this was part of the same plan. And of course the fact that he shot at
Walker with the rifle indicates the rifle was purchased to shoot Walker
with it. The hunter of Fascists on the photo of Oswald is another
indication.
> >> OF course, if that was his intent, keeping the Hidell card in his
> >> wallet was rather stupid, or a monumental oversight on his part.
>
> > If there was a dragnet to capture Oswald, perhaps flashing the Hidell ID
> >could get him out of trouble
> > (perhaps he thought he was known to police
> >for his earlier murder when Tippit stopped him, and tried to use the Hidel
> >ID on Tippit without success).
>
> What evidence is available proving Oswald flashed the Hidell ID at
> Tippit?
Did I say there was any? You indicated that you thought Oswald carrying
the Hidel ID was a mistake (Ooops!), I was only pointing out that Oswald
have purposely kept it because it might be useful to him in certain
circumstances, especially when his name surfaced in connection with the
murder he committed earlier.
> > CTers rarely think of Oswald as a man whos
> >first priority is accomplishing his goals, not avoiding prosecution.
>
> I'll let you speak for CTs, but not for me. It is always wiser to
> speak for yourself though.
I observe in these newsgroups the ideas commonly expressed by CTers.
These ideas seem to run more towards Oswald avoiding prosecution than
Oswald trying to achieve goals.
> Why would anyone think Oswald would not want to accomplish his goals?
For the most part, CTers don`t want to believe Oswald is guilty of
killing Kennedy. So they contrive reasons to believe he didn`t, by raising
what they perceive to be difficulties. These usually consist of asking why
Oswald did this or that. Often they focus on Oswald avoiding culpability
instead of Oswald taking the best course of action to achieve his goals.
> Do you believe Oswald tried to escape?
How could he? His time as a free man, or possibly a live man was
limited. He knew it was only a matter of time before his name surfaced.
Having the cab that took him to the boardinghouse go past the
boardinghouse instead of to it indicates either Oswald thought his name
might be known to authorities already, or he didn`t want Whaley seeing a
photo of Oswald and taking police to where Oswald lived.
> And if you do believe he tried
> to escape, why did he do so? To avoid capture and prosecution?
To stay free long enough to kill Walker. Thats what the pistol was
for. When Oswald was stopped he was heading towards the train station,
to take the train or one of the buses up into Walker`s neck of the
woods.
> > Jail
> >or death was not a deterrent when he embarked on these adventures, he was
> >willing to suffer these things to accomplish his goals.
>
> So you believe he was not trying to avoid capture, or death?
Being dead or captured prevented his from accomplishing his goals.
> Why did he leave the TSBD then? Why didn't he just surrender?
Hes a dead man, he realizes that. If he can take Walker out, it`s a
bonus.
bigdog
> On 22 Jul 2010 22:44:13 -0400, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > Jail
> >or death was not a deterrent when he embarked on these adventures, he was
> >willing to suffer these things to accomplish his goals.
>
> So you believe he was not trying to avoid capture, or death?
>
> Why did he leave the TSBD then? Why didn't he just surrender?
>
>
> Toronto
Next time I see him, I'll ask him that.
Peter Fokes
I think you are probably going up the ladder to angels, not down the
ladder to fire and brimstone.
PF
Anthony Marsh
Circumstantial will have to do for now unless you have a recording or a
letter or his diary.
Peter Fokes
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
Didn't Marina say he told her he had been planning the attempt to kill
Walker for several months?
PF
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:0e6e9e9c-be58-43e6...@t10g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
Could be, but maybe not literally months. Anyway we can't use that
hearsay as proof.
timstter
Hi Bill. I think you're changing the argument here. I said it was
silly to posit that a PO worker is going to remember handing a package
to someone in March when they are questioned about it in November.
Postal workers give out many items a day, Bill.
BTW, I think DVP has demonstrated that the PO was NOT required to keep
any such record, Bill. That part of the application was discarded. Why
are you claiming otherwise?
> And since the weapon found at the scene of one of the crimes can be
> associated with Oswald from the photo, his wife, DeMohrenschildt and
> his ownership of the PO box the weapons were sent to, why do we have
> to assume that Oswald himself picked up the weapons?
>
Well he ordered them, Bill. He had a vested interest in getting them
so it is the logical assumption to make. You don't agree?
> Especially if he is certified by his own handwriting as working the
> days the money order was mailed for the rifle and the days that he
> said to have picked up the rifle from the PO box, why couldn't he have
> given the key to the PO Box and the Hidel ID to someone else to pick
> up for him?
>
A vague posibility that would appear to clash with almost everything
that is known about Oswald and they way he operated, in my view.
> The Official Oswald Chronology uses his J/C/S worksheet to narrow down
> when he took the photos of the Walker house, so why can't we use them
> to narrow down when he mailed the money order and picked up the
> weapons?
>
Go ahead and take an educated guess, Bill, but we'll have to weigh
your conclusions against other statements you make, l,ike you believe
there is no evidence that rifle picked up a rifle from PO Box 2915.
> Why use the Hidel alias and PO box at all, and not just buy the
> weapons with cash at any department store or sporting goods story in
> the entire state of Texas, and not have a record of it or anyone who
> would remember you, unless you wanted to establish the record of
> ownership?
>
Well, Oswald was 23 years old, Bill. Maybe he hadn't thought it all
out? Using the Hidell alias seems an obvious attempt to muddy the
waters. His name was Lee Oswald. Alek Hidell was the one who ordered
the rifle.
> The silly theory isn't why no one from the PO remembers handing the
> rifle over the counter to the future assassin of the President, the
> silly theory is why isn't there ANY record, document or witness to the
> accused assassin doing it?
>
We have the facts that the rifle was mailed to the box and that he was
the holder of the key to the box. He filled out the application for
the rifle, Bill. His having the rifle in his possession is the
evidence he received it, Bill. Read the testimony of Holmes, Bill.
It's quite clear that the documentary record that exists is as strong
as you'll get from postal records.
> I would think that anyone would remember if they handed Ned Kelly a
> weapon that he used to kill a cop. Why wouldn't they remember Oswald
> after the assassination if not before?
>
Because it was just a routine parcel pick up, probably to an addressee
who was entitled to receive mail at the box, ie Hidell.
> I think they would if they did, and nobody seems to have done so.
>
They might remember, they might not. Much more likely that they
WOULDN'T remember, Bill. It was months and months after the
pedesstrian event of his (gasp) picking up a coupla parcels at a
(gasp) Post Office, Bill. (ie a place that routinely hands out parcels
and packages on a daily basis).
> Bill Kelly
Bill Kelly
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
What's interesting is that Oswald orders the pistol first - in January
- or at least fills out the form and dates it January,
then he meets Volkmar Schmidt at the party set up to introduce Oswald
to the Paines, and using the psychosymatic
reverse psychology techniques he was taught by Prof. Keutmeyer in
Heildelberg, Germany, Schmidt suggests to Oswald
that Walker should be assassinated like they should have assassinated
Hitler.
Oswald then cases out Walker's house, takes the photos on a Sunday,
and THEN orders the rifle.
That's the correct sequence of events - orders pistol, meets Schmidt,
cases out and photos Walker's residence and then orders rifle.
BK
Bill Kelly
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tim says that it's ridiculious to think that a postal clerk would
remember handing a rifle
over the counter to a customer.
But the Post Office has records of its employees hours and could tell
who was working the day
Oswald was supposed to have picked up the rifle and pistol, shortly
after they were shipped on the
same day. They could have at least checked to see who was working and
asked them.
Now a Lone Nutter is saying that instead of just buying the MC and
pistol at Green's in Dallas or
anywhere in the state of Texas with cash, Oswald went the mail/money
order/.PO box alias route
BECAUSE he didn't want a sales person to recognize and remember him.
You use both ways as an excuse.
And Bud says above that the reason Oswald used the mail route/alias/
money order and PO box
was because he needed a license and registation to buy the guns over
the counter, but so far,
that doesn't appear to be the case.
We have seen no Texas or Federal law that requires a person in 1963 to
show identification when
buying a weapon over the counter.
So why did Oswald buy his weapons through the mails when he could have
just as easily bought them
at Green's, or the pawn shop where Hinkley got his guns, or Ray's
Hardware store?
BK
Peter Fokes
wrote:
>On Jul 23, 12:43 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
Well, I'd say Bud should provide some proof a license and registration
was required in Texas.
>We have seen no Texas or Federal law that requires a person in 1963 to
>show identification when
>buying a weapon over the counter.
Well, Bud might pull a rabbit out of his hat. Lets give him a chance.
>
>So why did Oswald buy his weapons through the mails when he could have
>just as easily bought them
>at Green's, or the pawn shop where Hinkley got his guns, or Ray's
>Hardware store?
Split personality? He really thought he was Hidell at times?
OR
If the gun was faulty, he could return it without having to present
himself to a salesperson?
Or
???
>
>BK
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
Anthony Marsh
Unfair tactic. He can't, he's a WC defender. It is very rude to ask them
to prove their nonsense.
>
>> We have seen no Texas or Federal law that requires a person in 1963 to
>> show identification when
>> buying a weapon over the counter.
>
> Well, Bud might pull a rabbit out of his hat. Lets give him a chance.
>
Not bloody likely. If he ever had any proof of anything he would have
cited it and quoted it at the time. All he has is some bullshit that his
drinking buddies tell him.
bigdog
>
> - Show quoted text -
This is a silly argument. Oswald had the choice of buying weapons via
mail order or in person. He chose mail order. So what? I'm sure he
wasn't the only one who bought a mail order gun in 1963. Today people
have similar choices. Buy from a brick and mortar store or buy through
an online retailer. Some choose one way and some choose the other.
Each person has his or her reasons for choosing the means to get what
they want. Like many others, Oswald had a choice in 1963. He chose to
buy his gun through the mail, just like many other buyers did. Other
folks chose to buy through local gun dealers. How is the choice of
where a person buys a weapon indicative of their guilt or innocence in
regard to a gun crime?
Anthony Marsh
False charge. I never said anything about a postal clerk being able to
identify Oswald. And how would the postal clerk know it was a rifle?
Or a handgun? Are those the ONLY packages Oswald ever picked up at the
post office?
> And Bud says above that the reason Oswald used the mail route/alias/
> money order and PO box
> was because he needed a license and registation to buy the guns over
> the counter, but so far,
> that doesn't appear to be the case.
>
Why should you even believe anything Bud says for one second?
He never cites and never quotes the evidence.
> We have seen no Texas or Federal law that requires a person in 1963 to
> show identification when
> buying a weapon over the counter.
>
> So why did Oswald buy his weapons through the mails when he could have
> just as easily bought them
> at Green's, or the pawn shop where Hinkley got his guns, or Ray's
> Hardware store?
>
So that Hosty would not see him shopping for weapons.
> BK
>
Bud
> On 21 Aug 2010 10:13:06 -0400, Bill Kelly <billkel...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jul 23, 12:43 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 7/22/2010 11:57 PM, Peter Fokes wrote:
>
> >money order and PO box
> >was because he needed a license and registation to buy the guns over
> >the counter, but so far,
> >that doesn't appear to be the case.
>
> was required in Texas.
Al I can do is provide what I can access. When I did a google search for
"time-line/purchase/firearms" the search produced a timeline which linked
to an article. Part of that article could be read, and what could be seen
included the following...
"But there are nine states which require registration or license to
purchase firearms. Texas is one of these states."
The article was written November 26th, 1963.
Here is where the article can be order. Perhaps .John, if Marquette has
the resources available, and .John has the interest, could access the full
article. It can be found here (providing the link works)...
> >We have seen no Texas or Federal law that requires a person in 1963 to
> >show identification when
> >buying a weapon over the counter.
>
> Well,Budmight pull a rabbit out of his hat. Lets give him a chance.
Bud understands that if a conspiracy monger makes a claim like "Oswald
could purchase firearms over the counter without any paper trail", that it
is up to the conspiracy monger making the claim to support the idea, it
isn`t incumbent upon LNers to disprove the claim.
Bud
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 7/22/2010 11:57 PM, Peter Fokes wrote:
>
He would have handed a package, not a rifle.
> But the Post Office has records of its employees hours and could tell
> who was working the day
> Oswald was supposed to have picked up the rifle and pistol, shortly
> after they were shipped on the
> same day. They could have at least checked to see who was working and
> asked them.
Holmes said they did check.
> Now a Lone Nutter is saying that instead of just buying the MC and
> pistol at Green's in Dallas or
> anywhere in the state of Texas with cash, Oswald went the mail/money
> order/.PO box alias route
> BECAUSE he didn't want a sales person to recognize and remember him.
>
> You use both ways as an excuse.
No, they are both offered as possibilities. As Jean correctly pointed
out, Oswald didn`t say why he choose to purchase the weapon through mail
order. What is clear is that he did, but conspiracy mongers don`t like
"clear", they prefer "muddy".
> AndBudsays above that the reason Oswald used the mail route/alias/
> money order and PO box
> was because he needed a license and registation to buy the guns over
> the counter, but so far,
> that doesn't appear to be the case.
But it is the case.
> We have seen no Texas or Federal law that requires a person in 1963 to
> show identification when
> buying a weapon over the counter.
And we`ve seen nothing offered by the people who say that a firearm
could be purchased over the counter with no paper trail. Since they are
making the claim, it`s up to these people to produce that statutes that
back it up.
> So why did Oswald buy his weapons through the mails when he could have
> just as easily bought them
> at Green's, or the pawn shop where Hinkley got his guns, or Ray's
> Hardware store?
You are just repeating the same claim, you aren`t offering a thing
in support of the idea.
> BK
Anthony Marsh
Right. According to Klein's records, how many Mannlicher-Carcanos did
they ship to the Dallas area in 1963?
> have similar choices. Buy from a brick and mortar store or buy through
> an online retailer. Some choose one way and some choose the other.
> Each person has his or her reasons for choosing the means to get what
> they want. Like many others, Oswald had a choice in 1963. He chose to
> buy his gun through the mail, just like many other buyers did. Other
Maybe he liked the fact that the rifle already had a scope mounted on it.