LHO's Shooting Ability , " He Was A Expert Shot " .... !
cdddraftsman
( Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO ) :
200 Yard Rapid Fire
Friday , Dec 21 ( Qualification ) : Score of 48 out of maximum of
possible 50 .
Thursday , December 20 ( practice ) : Score of 43 out of maximum of
possible 50 .
Wednesday , December 19 ( practice ) : Score of 49 out of maximum of
possible 50.
Tuesday , December 18 ( practice ) : Score of 73 out of maximum of
possible 80 .
Monday , December 17 ( practice ) : Appears to be a score of 46 out of
maximum of possible 50 .
Thursday : ( prior week ) first day of shooting practice : Score of 24
out of maximum of possible 25 .
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It appears that this 200 yard rapid fire shooting was from the sitting
position , and this also represents some of the best shooting of/by
LHO .
And , the above results demonstrate that LHO was quite proficient with
the rifle , in a rapid fire exercise , at a range of 200 yards , which
happens to be twice the distance of the longest shot
made in Dealy Plaza .
What most are unaware of in the shooting skills of LHO ( & all
Marines ) , is that their qualification , not unlike he ACT/GED/etc ;
etc ; etc ; is based on shooting ability from a number of different
shooting positions , from a variety of ranges/distances .
Therefore , one could shoot absolutely perfect scores at shorter
ranges and from stable firing positions , yet do badly on other
portions of the course at longer ranges and different positions , and
only therefore only qualify to the basic minimum " Marksman " or
" Sharpshooter " ability .
For all practical purposes , LHO initially began shooting in the high
" EXPERT " range for the 200 yard-rapid fire exercise , from the
sitting position . And , even on the day in which he qualified at only
barely a " Sharpshooter ", he still was in the 96 percentile rating
for this particular portion of the qualification which was for the
shorter ranges from a stable firing position ( sitting ) .
The USMC rifle qualification requires shooting from the sitting
position ; kneeling position ; prone position ; and unfortunately for
many , the " Off-Hand " position , which is standing with absolutely
nothing except the feet on the ground for firing position/platform
stability .
In addition , ranges for qualification begin at the 200 yard mark and
thereafter progress to 300 yard targets , and then to 500 yard
targets .
So , based on LHO's initial/entry shooting ability , as well as his
shooting skill at the time of qualification , one can rest assured
that they did not want LHO to be shooting at them at a distance of 200
yards , in a rapid-fire condition , when he had a stable/sitting
position .
And , without going through all of the specifics of his shooting
ability at the 300 yard/rapid fire portion of final qualification , it
should suffice to demonstrate that he fired a score of 46 out of a
maximum possible score of 50 , on this portion of qualification .
___________________________________________________
LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds , rapid fire , at a
target that was 200 yards down range .
His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25 , and four of the
rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-
inch square .
Now , to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21 :
The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5)
different firing stations , which were :
a. 200 yard Rapid Fire
b. 300 yard Rapid Fire
c. 200 yard Slow
d. 300 yard Slow
e. 500 yard Slow
Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points , for 250
points maximum score .
Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were :
a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman
b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter
c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert
Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above , in order
to attain the " EXPERT " qualification .
( 220 divided by 250 = .88 )
December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO :
1. 200 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 48 out of possible
50--------% rating :---96%
Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
range .
2. 300 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 46 out of possible
50--------% rating :--92%
Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
range .
3. 500 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 46 out of possible
50--------% rating :--92%
Classification for this shooting station :--------UPPER EXPERT range.
4. 200 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 39 out of possible
50--------% rating :--78%
Classification for this shooting station :--------- BOTTOM range for
Marksman qualification.
5. 300 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 33 out of possible
50--------% rating :--66%
Classification for this shooting station :-------Failure. Does not
even qualify for Marksman .
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now !
The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
position ) *
The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
position.**
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing
position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing
control , etc ;.
**Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
wind speed increase .
Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
center .
The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>From this information , and that which demonstrates that LHO entered
the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position ,
one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest
and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on , LHO
easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification .
His capability for " Free-Hand "/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported
firing was marginal , and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-
Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct
for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment
through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots
fired .
Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot , knows little of
what they speak .
Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with
absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have
missed JFK on at least one of the three shots .
He was not in a cow pasture .
He was , for all practical purposes , firing from a sitting/bench rest
position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the
weapon for shooting accuracy . ( see Bench Rest for shooting
accuracy ) .
>From which position , LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually
uppermost ranges for EXPERT , and qualified on December 21 in the
uppermost ranges for EXPERT , in a rapid-fire shooting environment .
Ask a Marine shooter about this .
John Blubaugh
> Thomas H. Purvis wrote :
>
> ( Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO ) :
>
> 200 Yard Rapid Fire
>
> Friday , Dec 21 ( Qualification ) : Score of 48 out of maximum of
> possible 50 .
>
> Thursday , December 20 ( practice ) : Score of 43 out of maximum of
> possible 50 .
>
> Wednesday , December 19 ( practice ) : Score of 49 out of maximum of
> possible 50.
>
> Tuesday , December 18 ( practice ) : Score of 73 out of maximum of
> possible 80 .
>
> Monday , December 17 ( practice ) : Appears to be a score of 46 out of
> maximum of possible 50 .
>
> Thursday : ( prior week ) first day of shooting practice : Score of 24
> out of maximum of possible 25 .
>
> Now !
>
> The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
>
> The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
> position ) *
>
> The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
> position.**
>
>
> * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing
> position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
> firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
> to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing
> control , etc ;.
>
> **Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
> for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
> ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
> station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
> adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
> attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
> wind speed increase .
> Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
> that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
> center .
>
> The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
>
I have asked and I qualified in the army. These scores are useless
information. Ask your Marine buddies if ANYONE ever failed to qualify. In
the army, if you failed to qualify, the score was changed. If you needed a
little help to move up a rank, it was readily provided. I put more trust
in the Marines who served with Oswald who said he was a very poor shot and
the fact that the Russians noted he couldn't hit a rabbit with a shotgun.
Oswald was not qualifying with a piece of crap weapon that jammed all of
the time. The next thing you will quote is that experts had no trouble
duplicating Oswald's shots with a rifle like his. What about the rifle he
actually had? How did they do trying to duplicate it with that weapon? The
fact is that Oswald's rifle was not zeroed in to shoot at the distance
necessary and making those shots at that short range would have been
almost impossible.
JB
Brokedad
http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/...php/t-9076.html
In the rapid fire courses, one must go from the standing position to the
firing position, acquire the target, shoot 5 rounds, re-load the weapon
with a new magazine, re-acquire the target, and then complete another
5-round firing.
All in 70 seconds or less.
Which time includes going from the standing position to the actual firing
position and acquiring the target for the first shot, as well as that time
required to reload the weapon, and yet still average a firing time of
7-seconds per shot.
LHO's Record:
200 yard Rapid Fire Station: Score----48 of 50 Percentile
Rating:-------96
300 yard Rapid Fire Station: Score----46 of 50 Percentile
Rating:-------92
mnhay27
> Thomas H. Purvis wrote :
>
> ( Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO ) :
>
> 200 Yard Rapid Fire
>
> Friday , Dec 21 ( Qualification ) : Score of 48 out of maximum of
> possible 50 .
>
> Thursday , December 20 ( practice ) : Score of 43 out of maximum of
> possible 50 .
>
> Wednesday , December 19 ( practice ) : Score of 49 out of maximum of
> possible 50.
>
> Tuesday , December 18 ( practice ) : Score of 73 out of maximum of
> possible 80 .
>
> Monday , December 17 ( practice ) : Appears to be a score of 46 out of
> maximum of possible 50 .
>
> Thursday : ( prior week ) first day of shooting practice : Score of 24
> out of maximum of possible 25 .
>
> Now !
>
> The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
>
> The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
> position ) *
>
> The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
> position.**
>
>
> * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing
> position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
> firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
> to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing
> control , etc ;.
>
> **Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
> for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
> ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
> station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
> adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
> attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
> wind speed increase .
> Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
> that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
> center .
>
> The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
>
It takes a very brave soul indeed to claim that Oswald was an "expert"
shot - even Bugliosi didn't go that far. Because it's not true. Oswald was
nicknamed "shitbird" by his fellow marines for his lack of proficiency
with a rifle. Does that sound like an expert shot? The simple truth is
that he was at best an average rifleman when firing through the iron
sights of his rifle at stationary targets on a flat trajectory. To perform
the feat attributed to him by the Warren Commission required skills and
experience that he simply did not have.
burgundy
>
> - Show quoted text -
Here arises the crucial question: Was Lee Harvey Oswald a "proficient
man with this weapon," with "considerable experience" in his background?
While in the Marines between 1956 and 1959, Oswald was twice tested
for his performance with a rifle. On a scale of expert-
sharpshooter-marksman, Oswald scored two points above the minimum for
sharpshooter on one occasion (December 1956) and only one point above the
minimum requirement for marksman on another (May 1959) -- his last
recorded score. Colonel A. G. Folsom evaluated these scores for the
Commission:
The Marine Corps consider that any reasonable application of the
instructions given to Marines should permit them to become qualified at
least as a marksman. To become qualified as a sharpshooter, the Marine
Corps is of the opinion that most Marines with a reasonable amount of
adaptability to weapons firing can become so qualified. Consequently, a
low marksman qualification indicates a rather poor "shot" and a
sharpshooter qualification indicates a fairly good "shot." (19H17-18)
There exists the possibility that Oswald's scores were either
inaccurately or unfairly recorded, thus accounting for his obviously
mediocre to horrendous performances with a rifle. However, there is other
information independent of the scores to indicate that Oswald was in fact
not a good shot. In his testimony, Colonel Folsom examined the Marine
scorebook that Oswald himself had maintained, and elaborated on his
previous evaluation:
Mr. Ely: I just wonder, after having looked through the whole
scorebook, if we could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this
stage of his career he was not a particularly outstanding shot.
Col. Folsom: No, no, he was not. His scorebook indicates . . . that
he did well at one or two ranges in order to achieve the two points over
the minimum score for sharpshooter.
Mr. Ely: In other words, he had a good day the day he fired for
qualification?
Col. Folsom: I would say so. (8H311) Thus, according to Folsom,
Oswald's best recorded score was the result of having "a good day";
otherwise, Oswald "was not a particularly outstanding shot."
Folsom was not alone in his evaluation of Oswald as other than a
good shot. The following is exerpted [sic] from the testimony of Nelson
Delgado, one of Oswald's closest associates in the Marines:
Mr. Liebeler: Did you fire with Oswald?
Mr. Delgado: Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were
on the same line together, the same time, but not firing at the same
position . . . and I remember seeing his. It was a pretty big joke,
because he got a lot of "maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but
he didn't give a darn.
Mr. Liebeler: Missed the target completely?
Mr. Delgado: He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic
as the rest of us. (8H235)
The Report tried desperately to get around this unanimous body of
credible evidence. First Marine Corps Major Eugene Anderson (who never had
any association with Oswald) is quoted at length about how bad weather,
poor coaching, and an inferior weapon might have accounted for Oswald's
terrible performance in his second recorded test (R191). Here the
Commission scraped the bottom of the barrel, offering this
unsubstantiated, hypothetical excuse-making as apparent fact. Weather
bureau records, which the Commission did not bother to check, show that
perfect firing conditions existed at the time and place Oswald last fired
for qualification -- better conditions in fact, than those prevailing
during the assassination.[5] As for the quality of the weapon fired in the
test, it is probable that at its worst it would have been far superior to
the virtual piece of junk Oswald allegedly owned and used in the
assassination.[6] Perhaps Anderson guessed correctly in suggesting that
Oswald may have had a poor instructor; yet, from the time of his departure
from the Marines in 1959 to the time of the assassination in 1963, Oswald
had no instructor.
For its final "evaluation," the Report again turned to Anderson and
Zahm. Each man is quoted as rating Oswald a good shot, somewhat above
average, as compared to other Marines, and an "excellent" shot as compared
to the average male civilian (R192). That the Commission could even
consider these evaluations is beyond comprehension. Oswald's Marine scores
and their official evaluation showed that he did not possess even "a
reasonable amount of adaptability to weapons firing." If this is better
than average for our Marines, pity the state of our national "defense"!
The testimonies of Folsom and Delgado -- people who had direct association
with Oswald in the Marines -- are not mentioned in the Report.
Thus, Oswald left the Marines in 1959 as a "rather poor shot." If he
is to be credited with a feat such as the assassination, it must be
demonstrated that he engaged in some activity between 1959 and 1963 that
would have greatly developed his rifle capability and maintained it until
the time of the shooting. The Report barely touched on the vital area of
Oswald's rifle practice. In a brief two-paragraph section entitled
"Oswald's Rifle Practice Outside the Marines," the Report painted a very
sketchy picture, entirely inadequate in terms of the nature of the issue
(R192-93). In all, Oswald is associated with a weapon eleven or twelve
times, ending in May 1963.
tomnln
Hendricks, Staley & Miller.
Volume III pages 446-447.
An NRA Maaster is qualified to shoot in Olympic Shooting Competition.
Oswald NEVER hit anything he aimed at with a SHOTGUN.
Volume V page 405.
"mnhay27" <mnh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1191613188.3...@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
cdddraftsman
have made the shots atributed to him in Dealey Plaza . Thanks for the
replys , for what there worth : One good reply and four who choose to
remain in denail :-( sad face by all when enlightenment strikes
home .........tl
cdddraftsman
>
> - Show quoted text -
Tissk tissk John , the shots must of been made by a terrestrial .
right ? So to say there impossible is kind of like saying someone is
only a little bit pregnant :-( ...tl
cdddraftsman
>
> - Show quoted text -
The easiest shot in the world is the one he attempted ..... from the 6
o'clock bench rest position : http://tinypic.com/view/?pic=4hnd7gj as
the target was moving slowly away from him on a slightly downward angled
street !
No question about it .
On the other hand CTer's attribute a bullseye by a grassy knoll shooter
from the hardest shooting location , the 3 o'clock position .......who
ever came up with that malarky obviously did his homework for writings in
fantasy and got a A+ , that for sure ....:-) .................tl
meta71...@aol.com
DOES THE TERM ADRENLIN DUMP MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?
this man supposely shot the most powerful man in the world and calmly
walked out of the building... are you kidding me???
as a former marine expert rifleman, i know that oswald could not have
made this shot... the poor president was murdered by experts, well
trained in shooting and placement. wake up please...
Brokedad
Although quite well written, as well as often cited, the simple facts
remain:
1. The Model 91/38 Carcano in relatively good condition, hardly rates
as a "virtual piece of junk".
In the event that it did, then beginning with the issue of the M-14 to
all US Armed Forces, then we immediately equipped them with a "virtual
piece of junk", as the Model 91/38 Carcano which was utilized in the
assassination, in bench-test firing, coupled with ammunition produced
to Military Starndard, fired as accurately as did the US issue weapon,
the M-14.
Therefore, your thesis is immediately "slanted" to a non-factual
conclusion.
"garbage in/garbage out" is, if recalled, the correct saying!
2. In shooting application, there are many who, for whatever reason,
(eyesight, etc:) can not hit the side of a barn at various ranges, yet
at other ranges can pop the heads off chickens.
In that regards, one needs to take a look at the ENTIRE Rangefire
Practice as well as Rangefire Qualification of LHO.
In that, anyone who is actually familiar with LHO's entire Rangefire
Record as well as his initial Qualification for Record, and who is
familiar with the actual shooting ability of various individuuals,
should come to the virtual same conclusion.
A. For Record, LHO fired in/above the 90th percentile rating for
three of 5 firing stations. Two stations of which were in the "Rapid
Fire" firing condition.
B. Of the two remaining stations which LHO did poorly, during one of
these stations at which he had demonstrated during practice that he
had the capability of actually doing well at, he did poorly.
10-shots at 5 separate windage adjustments!
This has little to do with whether one is or is not a good shot!
Primarily, it has to do with having accurate information relative to
wind speed and direction, and the correct calculation for a correction
factor to apply to the weapon to compensate for this variable.
That LHO went through 5 separate "windage" settings during this
shooting station is quite indicative that the single most problem was
an incorrect application of windage correction to his sight
adjustments.
Anyone who is of the misconception that LHO was a poor shot, had best
take this Qualification for Record shooting record to someone who
knows something and have them properly evaluate the shot grouping.
And, although LHO quite obviously had not, at this time, developed the
fine points of shooting which would have allowed this type accuracy
virtually all the time, one does not achieve this type shot grouping
by being a poor shot.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0346a.htm
Not suprisingly, LHO did his absolute best firing when faced with the
"Rapid Fire" situation!
"There exists the possibility that Oswald's scores were either
> inaccurately or unfairly recorded, thus accounting for his obviously
> mediocre to horrendous performances with a rifle"
An "inaccurately or unfairly recorded" score has absolutely ZERO to do
with LHO's ability/performance with a rifle.
Since each recruit was responsible for keeping his own score, it
demonstrates that LHO was clearly not that good at math.
Which, would also serve to indicate why he had difficulties in
computation of, and application of the windage correction factor,
which is a mere math problem.
An inaccurate score merely demonstrates that one can not add
correctly. Totally irrelevant as to shooting ability.
As is clearly demonstrated by the fact that LHO "lost" on point at one
firing station during Rangefire Qualification, merely due to an
addition error.
As well as the fact that when one correctly adds all of LHO's totals
from the 5 separate firing stations, they come up with a score of 217,
which actually places him only 3 points below the EXPERT category,
even though he completely failed on firing station and barely passed
another firing station due to what appears to be more "extenuating
circumstances" than actual shooter ability.
In "Academic Terms"
An actual GPA of 86.8 (217/250) does not demonstrate that one is
either smart or dumb.
However, when one looks at those separate grades of 46 of 50/--92nd
percentile; 46 of 50/--92nd percentile; 48 of 50/--96th
percentile; 40 of 50/--80th percentile; & 37 of 50/--74th percentile,
which went into determination of that grade point average, then anyone
who is even vaguely familiar with how we grade our school students can
see that LHO was an absolute "A" student in 3 of four of his classes.
The demonstrated marksmanship ability of LHO, based on the only
factual record which we have, (his Recruit Rangefire Practice &
Qualification Record) clearly demonstrates that LHO was by far, and
even better shot than any LNer, to include John McAdams, was fully
aware of.
Overall average of 88th percentile for the EXPERT RATING!
92nd/92nd/&96th percentile ratings in 3 of 5 IS NOT accidental.
Russ Burr
Thanks for posting this. Very informative. On the show "Frontline: Who Was
Lee Harvey Oswald", A Marine officer stated that "by civilian standards
Oswald was an excellent shot". Others (CT's) will argue that his MC was,
for lack of better words, was a piece of junk or that those tests were
taken years before 11/22/63.
I've seen demonstrations of others shooting the MC, some on T/V and some
in person. Though it wasn't Oswald's rifle. it was plenty accurate as well
as powerful. And as far as the years that went by between his Marine tests
and 1963 he was practicing.....Marina even testified to that and she told
me the same in a difficult interview I had with her in 98.
Russ
Anthony Marsh
> 3 NRA "Masters" could NOT do what the WC attributed to Oswald.
>
The problem is assuming what Oswald did.
> Hendricks, Staley & Miller.
> Volume III pages 446-447.
>
> An NRA Maaster is qualified to shoot in Olympic Shooting Competition.
>
> Oswald NEVER hit anything he aimed at with a SHOTGUN.
> Volume V page 405.
>
What about Schrand?
Anthony Marsh
Thus accounting for he BARELY qualified instead of flunking.
Gee, I wonder what he means by an inferior weapon? And he is the expert.
Yet when I point out that the Mannlicher-Carcano was an inferior weapon,
the WC defenders claim that doesn't matter.
> terrible performance in his second recorded test (R191). Here the
> Commission scraped the bottom of the barrel, offering this
> unsubstantiated, hypothetical excuse-making as apparent fact. Weather
> bureau records, which the Commission did not bother to check, show that
> perfect firing conditions existed at the time and place Oswald last fired
> for qualification -- better conditions in fact, than those prevailing
> during the assassination.[5] As for the quality of the weapon fired in the
> test, it is probable that at its worst it would have been far superior to
> the virtual piece of junk Oswald allegedly owned and used in the
> assassination.[6] Perhaps Anderson guessed correctly in suggesting that
> Oswald may have had a poor instructor; yet, from the time of his departure
> from the Marines in 1959 to the time of the assassination in 1963, Oswald
> had no instructor.
> For its final "evaluation," the Report again turned to Anderson and
> Zahm. Each man is quoted as rating Oswald a good shot, somewhat above
> average, as compared to other Marines, and an "excellent" shot as compared
Hubris. They think that ANY Marine is far superior to the average man.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***When i went through Army basic training, firing an M-16 at Fort Dix, i
had no trouble hitting the closest target, which was a head and shoulders
sillouete. The farthest target, i missed several times.
On a few occasions, long after being out of the military, i have been to a
shooting range, firing at a target at 100 yards. I had no trouble hitting
the target. It did not require great skill or experience to do so. I
have not been to a range in over 5 years, but i doubt i would have trouble
hitting target at 100 yards.
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
Tell everyone what Maggie's Drawers means and what shitbird means.
Anthony Marsh
You are talking about the WC's expert witnesses.
> Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with
> absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have
> missed JFK on at least one of the three shots .
>
So, your theory is that there were no missed shots. Please explain what
each shot hit. This should be fun.
cdddraftsman
We woke up to these :
The Pristine bullet :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J45xnVcgTMY
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 1 6.5 Carcano, Oswald rifle :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACT0aKWEAow&mode=related&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK Part 2 Carcano 6 shots, 11 seconds :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPrI7JnsKeo&mode=related&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 3 , Carcano 7 shots in 6.8 seconds :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-qQBl5ZuPc&mode=related&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 4 Gov Connelly's position :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lCNLa8a4sk&mode=related&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 5 "The Magic Bullet" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om05TQYyuUI&mode=related&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 7, "The Badge Man" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adfkLKXmL6A
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 6 "The Magic Bullet" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOU3pvKkBU8
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 8 "Gordon Arnold" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NprUqYrLWVE&mode=user&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 9 "Case against LHO" :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c8DDEhg6WQ&mode=user&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 10, The Tippit murder. :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpLkUp2j_mw&mode=user&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 11, Brenanns testimony :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTW72kYE6Zc&mode=user&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 12, Mac Wallace's fingerprint :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khA2XdGPQqk&mode=user&search=
Oswald assassinated JFK, Part 13, Head movement :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnYd2qgQnJk&mode=user&search=
Oswald shoot :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBeMaEwwvwU
The Kennedy Assassination - Beyond Conspiracy :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikIRB3lvFvw&mode=related&search=
Lining up the "magic" bullet :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kEh3Kgwhk0&mode=related&search=
Vincent Bugliosi - No Evidence for JFK / Oswald Conspiracies :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JktLkQbtVbE&mode=related&search=
tomnln
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mbydnekgzO9DSJra...@comcast.com...
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***As a former soldier, who's MOS was in signal corps, i had no problem
hitting a target at 100 yards, during or well after my military service,
with substantial time between the times i fired a rifle at a range.
Oswald would have been shooting at a moving vehicle, but one that had
slowed substantially at the time the head shot was fired. Oswald was
capable of firing the shot.
Why would Oswald have had an adrenaline dump, just because of who he would
have been shooting?
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
> Do have any proof to connect Oswald to the death of Schrand Marsh?
>
>
No, it was just a frequent rumor.
Anthony Marsh
> On Oct 5, 7:04 pm, mnhay27 <mnha...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 5, 4:32 pm, cdddraftsman <cdddrafts...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thomas H. Purvis wrote :
>>> ( Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO ) :
>>> 200 Yard Rapid Fire
>>> Friday , Dec 21 ( Qualification ) : Score of 48 out of maximum of
>>> possible 50 .
>>> Thursday , December 20 ( practice ) : Score of 43 out of maximum of
>>> possible 50 .
>>> Wednesday , December 19 ( practice ) : Score of 49 out of maximum of
>>> possible 50.
>>> Tuesday , December 18 ( practice ) : Score of 73 out of maximum of
>>> possible 80 .
f
>>> maximum of possible 50 .
4
>>> out of maximum of possible 25 .
------=AD=AD----------------------
>>> It appears that this 200 yard rapid fire shooting was from the sittin=
g
>>> position , and this also represents some of the best shooting of/by
>>> LHO .
h
>>> the rifle , in a rapid fire exercise , at a range of 200 yards , whic=
h
>>> happens to be twice the distance of the longest shot
>>> made in Dealy Plaza .
>>> What most are unaware of in the shooting skills of LHO ( & all
>>> Marines ) , is that their qualification , not unlike he ACT/GED/etc ;
>>> etc ; etc ; is based on shooting ability from a number of different
>>> shooting positions , from a variety of ranges/distances .
>>> Therefore , one could shoot absolutely perfect scores at shorter
>>> ranges and from stable firing positions , yet do badly on other
>>> portions of the course at longer ranges and different positions , and
>>> only therefore only qualify to the basic minimum " Marksman " or
>>> " Sharpshooter " ability .
>>> For all practical purposes , LHO initially began shooting in the high
>>> " EXPERT " range for the 200 yard-rapid fire exercise , from the
y
>>> barely a " Sharpshooter ", he still was in the 96 percentile rating
>>> for this particular portion of the qualification which was for the
>>> shorter ranges from a stable firing position ( sitting ) .
>>> The USMC rifle qualification requires shooting from the sitting
>>> position ; kneeling position ; prone position ; and unfortunately for
>>> many , the " Off-Hand " position , which is standing with absolutely
>>> nothing except the feet on the ground for firing position/platform
>>> stability .
>>> In addition , ranges for qualification begin at the 200 yard mark and
>>> thereafter progress to 300 yard targets , and then to 500 yard
>>> targets .
>>> So , based on LHO's initial/entry shooting ability , as well as his
>>> shooting skill at the time of qualification , one can rest assured
0
>>> yards , in a rapid-fire condition , when he had a stable/sitting
>>> position .
>>> And , without going through all of the specifics of his shooting
t
>>> should suffice to demonstrate that he fired a score of 46 out of a
>>> maximum possible score of 50 , on this portion of qualification .
>>> ___________________________________________________
>>> LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds , rapid fire , at a
>>> target that was 200 yards down range .
>>> His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25 , and four of the
>>> rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-
>>> inch square .
>>> Now , to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21 :
>>> The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5)
>>> different firing stations , which were :
>>> a. 200 yard Rapid Fire
>>> b. 300 yard Rapid Fire
>>> c. 200 yard Slow
>>> d. 300 yard Slow
>>> e. 500 yard Slow
>>> Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points , for 250
>>> points maximum score .
>>> Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were :
>>> a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman
>>> b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter
>>> c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert
r
>>> to attain the " EXPERT " qualification .
>>> December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO :
>>> 1. 200 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 48 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :---96%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
>>> range .
>>> 2. 300 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 46 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--92%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
>>> range .
>>> 3. 500 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 46 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--92%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :--------UPPER EXPERT range.
>>> 4. 200 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 39 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--78%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :--------- BOTTOM range for
>>> Marksman qualification.
>>> 5. 300 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 33 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--66%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :-------Failure. Does not
>>> even qualify for Marksman .
------=AD=AD-------------------
>>> Now !
>>> The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
>>> The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
>>> The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
>>> The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
>>> position ) *
>>> The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
>>> position.**
------=AD=AD--------------------
>>> * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing
>>> position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
>>> firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
g
>>> control , etc ;.
>>> **Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
>>> for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
>>> ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
>>> station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
>>> adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
>>> attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
>>> wind speed increase .
>>> Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
>>> that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
>>> center .
>>> The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
------=AD=AD---------------------
>>> >From this information , and that which demonstrates that LHO entered
>>> the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position ,
>>> one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest
>>> and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on , LHO
>>> easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification .
>>> His capability for " Free-Hand "/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported
>>> firing was marginal , and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-
>>> Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct
>>> for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment
>>> through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots
>>> fired .
f
>>> what they speak .
>>> Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with
>>> absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have
>>> missed JFK on at least one of the three shots .
>>> He was not in a cow pasture .
t
>>> position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the
>>> weapon for shooting accuracy . ( see Bench Rest for shooting
>>> accuracy ) .
>>> >From which position , LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually
>>> uppermost ranges for EXPERT , and qualified on December 21 in the
>>> uppermost ranges for EXPERT , in a rapid-fire shooting environment .
>>> Ask a Marine shooter about this .
>> It takes a very brave soul indeed to claim that Oswald was an "expert"
was
>> nicknamed "shitbird" by his fellow marines for his lack of proficiency
>> with a rifle. Does that sound like an expert shot? The simple truth is
>> that he was at best an average rifleman when firing through the iron
form
>> the feat attributed to him by the Warren Commission required skills an=
d
>> experience that he simply did not have.
>=20
> ***When i went through Army basic training, firing an M-16 at Fort Dix,=
i=20
> had no trouble hitting the closest target, which was a head and shoulde=
rs=20
> sillouete. The farthest target, i missed several times.
Because that particular rifle has a very flat trajectory. Depending on
what distance it is zeroed to, the maximum height attained might be an
inch or so.
> On a few occasions, long after being out of the military, i have been t=
o a=20
> shooting range, firing at a target at 100 yards. I had no trouble hitt=
ing=20
> the target. It did not require great skill or experience to do so. I=20
> have not been to a range in over 5 years, but i doubt i would have trou=
ble=20
> hitting target at 100 yards.
>=20
Not with a Mannlicher-Carcano. You are comparing apples and oranges.
> ***Ron Judge
>=20
>=20
Anthony Marsh
You are misstating the facts. The M-C is not as accurate as the M-14. The
M-14 has a very flat trajectory. The M-C has a very high trajectory.
> Therefore, your thesis is immediately "slanted" to a non-factual
> conclusion.
>
> "garbage in/garbage out" is, if recalled, the correct saying!
>
> 2. In shooting application, there are many who, for whatever reason,
> (eyesight, etc:) can not hit the side of a barn at various ranges, yet
> at other ranges can pop the heads off chickens.
> In that regards, one needs to take a look at the ENTIRE Rangefire
> Practice as well as Rangefire Qualification of LHO.
>
No, you are comparing apples and oranges.
> In that, anyone who is actually familiar with LHO's entire Rangefire
> Record as well as his initial Qualification for Record, and who is
> familiar with the actual shooting ability of various individuuals,
> should come to the virtual same conclusion.
>
> A. For Record, LHO fired in/above the 90th percentile rating for
> three of 5 firing stations. Two stations of which were in the "Rapid
> Fire" firing condition.
>
Nonsense. You are being selective. Oswald barely qualified.
> B. Of the two remaining stations which LHO did poorly, during one of
> these stations at which he had demonstrated during practice that he
> had the capability of actually doing well at, he did poorly.
>
> 10-shots at 5 separate windage adjustments!
>
> This has little to do with whether one is or is not a good shot!
> Primarily, it has to do with having accurate information relative to
> wind speed and direction, and the correct calculation for a correction
> factor to apply to the weapon to compensate for this variable.
>
> That LHO went through 5 separate "windage" settings during this
> shooting station is quite indicative that the single most problem was
> an incorrect application of windage correction to his sight
> adjustments.
>
>
>
> Anyone who is of the misconception that LHO was a poor shot, had best
> take this Qualification for Record shooting record to someone who
> knows something and have them properly evaluate the shot grouping.
>
You are disrespecting the WC's own experts.
How do you explain the fact that Oswald missed Walker at 120 feet?
> And, although LHO quite obviously had not, at this time, developed the
> fine points of shooting which would have allowed this type accuracy
> virtually all the time, one does not achieve this type shot grouping
> by being a poor shot.
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0346a.htm
>
> Not suprisingly, LHO did his absolute best firing when faced with the
> "Rapid Fire" situation!
>
Not using a bolt action rifle.
>
> "There exists the possibility that Oswald's scores were either
>> inaccurately or unfairly recorded, thus accounting for his obviously
>> mediocre to horrendous performances with a rifle"
>
> An "inaccurately or unfairly recorded" score has absolutely ZERO to do
> with LHO's ability/performance with a rifle.
> Since each recruit was responsible for keeping his own score, it
> demonstrates that LHO was clearly not that good at math.
He suffered from Dyslexia.
Maggie's Drawers is not equal to 92nd percentile.
>
>
Anthony Marsh
The grassy knoll shot was very easy. Even YOU could not miss at 105 feet.
Anthony Marsh
I think almost anyone could have missed twice out of three shots.
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"So, your theory is that there were no missed shots. Please explain
what
> each shot hit. This should be fun."
JFK!
Brokedad
If one so desires, they can locate and contact Massad Ayoob.
His "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" article of years ago is an excellent beginning,
as well as the fact that it was not only he who fired the same type weapon
in testing.
Nice thing about Massad, he admits that he entered the arena with some of
the preconceived concepts which many hold towards the Carcano.
However, after his actual experience, he at least had the reliability to
admit his own error.
Marina's testimonies and statements are, in fact quite revealing in many
ways.
That LHO sat and repeatedly operated the bolt action of the rifle is
indicative of someone who has some anticipation of a "rapid fire" exercise
in the near future.
tomnln
able to do
what the WCR attributed to Oswald.?
WHY would you change the subject?
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:_6Kdna27a-h9rZTa...@comcast.com...
Anthony Marsh
> Then why did you bring it up whenb the subject was 3 NRA Masters NOT
> being able to do
> what the WCR attributed to Oswald.?
>
> WHY would you change the subject?
>
I was making fun of your assumptions.
Anthony Marsh
If there were such a need.
Alternatively you might figure out which person scanned in the original
article and has it online.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Ayoob%201.jpg
> His "AMERICAN HANDGUNNER" article of years ago is an excellent beginning,
> as well as the fact that it was not only he who fired the same type weapon
> in testing.
>
Yes, but his particular theory is extremely wacky.
Anthony Marsh
WC defenders claim that of course none of the government's expert shooters
could duplicate what they claim Oswald did, but that Oswald could not miss
because he was pumped up with the idea of shooting someone famous.
> ***Ron Judge
>
>
>
>
>
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
> r2bzju...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
SNIP
> > On a few occasions, long after being out of the military, i have
been t=
> o a=20
> > shooting range, firing at a target at 100 yards. I had no trouble hitt=
> ing=20
> > the target. It did not require great skill or experience to do so. I=20
> > have not been to a range in over 5 years, but i doubt i would have trou=
> ble=20
> > hitting target at 100 yards.
> >=20
>
> Not with a Mannlicher-Carcano. You are comparing apples and oranges.> ***Ron Judge
> >=20
> >=20
***With an M-16, i had no trouble hitting the closest target. Same
with a co-workers M-1 Garand, which i had never fired before. i do
not think i am comparing apples and oranges.
***Ron Judge
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***It is the critics that have claimed that the government's expert
shooters have never been able to accomplish what Oswald is claimed to
have done.
The government's shooters did not know what Oswald is supposed to have
done, however. So how were they supposed to duplicate it?
None of the expert shooters missed the first shot. Zapruder said that
JFK slumped over after the first shot. That part i think they
duplicated, except likely the actual distance.
The government's shooters fired at stationary targets at set distances
that may not have matched the distances at which
Oswald would have fired 3 shots. Target 2 was closer to 3 than to 1.
Would Oswald have fired shot 2 closer to 3 than to 1?
A majority of ear witnesses recall it that way, but were they
correct? Incorrect placement of targets, based on faulty ear witness
recollection would possibly affect the outcome of test shooting.
***Ron Judge
Brokedad
>
> > The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
>
> > The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> > The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> > The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
> > position ) *
>
> > The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
> > position.**
>
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
>
> > position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
> > firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
> > to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing
> > control , etc ;.
>
> > **Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
> > for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
> > ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
> > station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
> > adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
> > attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
> > wind speed increase .
> > Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
> > that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
> > center .
>
> > The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm
TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. ZAHM
Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I
consider it a very easy shot.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1966-Wiesbaden-World Shooting Championships
Walter R. Walsh
Lawrence Enterkin
William Pullum
Marianne Driver
David R. Breeding
Emory F. Coleman
James A. Zahm
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse me, but I would prefer to stick with what appears to be a far
more credible source.
Anthony Marsh
They were told what the FBI believed, that all three shots hit the men.
> None of the expert shooters missed the first shot. Zapruder said that
> JFK slumped over after the first shot. That part i think they
> duplicated, except likely the actual distance.
>
OK, but again that is only the first shot that Zapruder heard, not
necessarily the very first shot. Remember that Zapruder only remembered
hearing TWO shots, and could not tell if the head shot was one or two.
> The government's shooters fired at stationary targets at set distances
> that may not have matched the distances at which
> Oswald would have fired 3 shots. Target 2 was closer to 3 than to 1.
> Would Oswald have fired shot 2 closer to 3 than to 1?
So what? It never promised to be a perfect replication.
> A majority of ear witnesses recall it that way, but were they
> correct? Incorrect placement of targets, based on faulty ear witness
> recollection would possibly affect the outcome of test shooting.
>
Do not rely on ear witnesses.
> ***Ron Judge
>
>
Anthony Marsh
Yes, you are. The midrange trajectories are vastly different.
> ***Ron Judge
>
>
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"You are talking about the WC's expert witnesses."
No!
I am speaking of "EXPERTS"!
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/zahm.htm
TESTIMONY OF SGT. JAMES A. ZAHM
Sergeant ZAHM. With the equipment he had and with his ability, I
consider it a very easy shot.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
"WC defenders claim that of course none of the government's expert
shooters
> could duplicate what they claim Oswald did, but that Oswald could not miss
> because he was pumped up with the idea of shooting someone famous."
Excuse me, but!
1. I hardly qualify as a "WC defender"!
2. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts (aka lie)
of the shooting sequence.
3. As one who was never naive enough to fall for "THE SHOT THAT
MISSED", as expounded upon considerably by the WC,* , I also felt
that either the original investigation by the US Secret Service and/or
the FBI, was by far more likely to be the factual truths than was the
WC.
*When a politician begins to "talk in circles/speak in tongues", one
had best check into exactly what it is that they are attempting to not
answer!
4.Since I have never liked "rigged tests", as I have also repeatedly
stated, why not give all of these EXPERTS, the factual shooting
sequence and thereafter get a second/third/fourth/& even fifth opinion
on this subject matter.
5. When one "corrects" the misconceptions and thereafter ceases to
attempt to "stuff" three shots within a 5.6 to 5.9 second time frame
limit, the variables have now changed considerably as to exactly what
is and what is not difficult.
6. And, since the Z313 impact was in fact the SECOND shot impact, had
LHO been a smoker, then he almost had time to "light one up" between
the elapsed time of the first shot and the impact of the SECOND shot
some 5+ seconds later.
cdddraftsman
Non-sense ! The 3 0'clock position is the most difficult shot to make and
everyone who's ever done any shooting knows it's ten times harder then the
6 o'clock position . That's official ! .............tl
cdddraftsman
But LHO didn't , that's the point ! ..............tl
Anthony Marsh
The TSBD shooter did.
Anthony Marsh
Nonsense. Anyone could make that shot.
You've obviously never done any shooting.
Anthony Marsh
I didn't say that YOU are a WC defender.
> 2. The WC is an intentional misrepresentation of the facts (aka lie)
> of the shooting sequence.
They offered three possible solutions.
The SBT was born out of necessity to ward off finding conspiracy.
> 3. As one who was never naive enough to fall for "THE SHOT THAT
> MISSED", as expounded upon considerably by the WC,* , I also felt
> that either the original investigation by the US Secret Service and/or
> the FBI, was by far more likely to be the factual truths than was the
> WC.
>
The SS and FBI were never able to explain exactly how their shooting
sequence accounts for the medical evidence.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
***Oswald would not have been firing at a target over 100 yards away,
thus it is irrelavent what the difference is between an M-16 and an
M-1, at 300 yards, in terms of trajectories. Oswald had trouble
hitting the farther range target, and so did i, regardless of the
differences of trajectory of the particular rifle.
A target at 300 yards is smaller than a target at 100 yards and thus
from that perspective alone, is harder to hit.
***Ron Judge
Anthony Marsh
You are wrong again. I said MIDRANGE trajectories. You don't know what
that means. For a flat trajectory the bullet may rise less than an inch at
its highest point along the distance from the rifle to the target with
zeroing of 100 yards or even 200 yards. For a Mannlicher-Carcano which has
a very HIGH midrange trajectory the bullet can rise to 10 inches at its
highest point along the distance from the rifle to the target at the same
comparable 100 yard or 200 yard zeroing.
Brokedad
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Oswald had trouble hitting the farther range target"
Actually!
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0341b.htm
LHO, on the 500 yard slow-fire range, scored 46 out of a possible 50
points. (92nd percentile)
Whereas it required only the 88th percentile overall average for
qualification for EXPERT.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0346a.htm
On the 300- yard rapid fire range, he also scored 46 out of a possible
50 points.
Again demonstrating his marksmanship ability.
However!
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0340a.htm
During the 300-yard slow fire exercise, the winds had increased to a
purported 5mph, coming almost directly from left to right.
Which in turn affected/carried bullet impact farther to the right.
LHO began shooting with a windage of:------------2R
After one shot, he changed this to only:-----------1R (moved sighting
back to left to compensate for wind)
Then he again changed the windage to:-------------0 (moved sighting
further back to left to compensate)
Then he again changed the windage to:-----------1L (moved sighting
further back to left to compensate)
Then he again changed the windage to:-----------2L (moved sighting
further back to left to compensate)
Thus! LHO was, through trial & error, attempting to correct his
shooting accuracy during actual rangefire qualification.
Final Score: 37 out of possible 50 = 74th percentile
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0332b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0334a.htm
According to the "Windage" formula, 1.5 clicks to the left should have
corrected for the purported 5mph crosswind.
(3 X 5 = 15/10 = 1.5 clicks).
However, LHO ultimately moved his sighting by 4-clicks to the left
(+2R initially to -2L final), and yet, was still impacting fully right
of target.
Based on the actual shot pattern grouping, this is more in line with
an incorrect reported wind speed, than what would appear to be shooter
error.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0340a.htm
This is re-inforced by his previous day's practice in which he finally
acquired the "ZERO" setting of 2R, and thereafter placed shots# 8, 9,
& 10 within the "5"/"4" & "4" target circles.
It would appear that all of these purported "shooters", as well as
many others, have been far too busy chasing mythological beings and
have thusly not had time to deal with the FACTS of LHO's excellent
marksmanship abililty.
Of course, one must understand something before they can explain it to
others!
Anthony Marsh
Very misleading. You are generalizing from the exception. Tell everyone
what Maggie's Drawers means.
All of his Marine experience could not help him with the piece of junk
Mannlicher-Carcano.
Brokedad
>
> > LHO, on the 500 yard slow-fire range, scored 46 out of a possible 50
> > points. (92nd percentile)
> > Whereas it required only the 88th percentile overall average for
> > qualification for EXPERT.
>
>
> > On the 300- yard rapid fire range, he also scored 46 out of a possible
> > 50 points.
> > Again demonstrating his marksmanship ability.
>
> Very misleading. You are generalizing from the exception. Tell everyone
> what Maggie's Drawers means.
>
>
>
>
>
> > However!
>
>
> > During the 300-yard slow fire exercise, the winds had increased to a
> > purported 5mph, coming almost directly from left to right.
> > Which in turn affected/carried bullet impact farther to the right.
>
> > LHO began shooting with a windage of:------------2R
> > After one shot, he changed this to only:-----------1R (moved sighting
> > back to left to compensate for wind)
> > Then he again changed the windage to:-------------0 (moved sighting
> > further back to left to compensate)
> > Then he again changed the windage to:-----------1L (moved sighting
> > further back to left to compensate)
> > Then he again changed the windage to:-----------2L (moved sighting
> > further back to left to compensate)
>
> > Thus! LHO was, through trial & error, attempting to correct his
> > shooting accuracy during actual rangefire qualification.
>
> > Final Score: 37 out of possible 50 = 74th percentile
>
>
> >http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...
>
> > According to the "Windage" formula, 1.5 clicks to the left should have
> > corrected for the purported 5mph crosswind.
> > (3 X 5 = 15/10 = 1.5 clicks).
>
> > However, LHO ultimately moved his sighting by 4-clicks to the left
> > (+2R initially to -2L final), and yet, was still impacting fully right
> > of target.
> > Based on the actual shot pattern grouping, this is more in line with
> > an incorrect reported wind speed, than what would appear to be shooter
> > error.
>
>
> > This is re-inforced by his previous day's practice in which he finally
> > acquired the "ZERO" setting of 2R, and thereafter placed shots# 8, 9,
> > & 10 within the "5"/"4" & "4" target circles.
>
> > It would appear that all of these purported "shooters", as well as
> > many others, have been far too busy chasing mythological beings and
> > have thusly not had time to deal with the FACTS of LHO's excellent
> > marksmanship abililty.
>
> > Of course, one must understand something before they can explain it to
> > others!
>
> All of his Marine experience could not help him with the piece of junk
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0343b.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0344a.htm
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0345a.htm
Note: 12--"5's & 6- "4"'s certainly looks like a "shooter" to me!
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0346a.htm
46 out of possible 50----aka 92 out of possible 100-----aka 92nd
percentile rating.
Anthony!
Since "higher math" appears to be above you, perhaps the pictures will
help.
P.S. Add the total for the actual day of Rangefire Qualification, and one
comes to a total score of 417, not the "handwirtten" score of 412/ mm
which has been forged into LHO's Service Record.
417 = 3 points below that score necessary to qualify as EXPERT (420), and
this with having completely "blown" one firing station.
P.P.S. Exactly what about application for Albert Schweitzer College in
March 1959, when the purported requalification firing record of 191
occurred in May 1959. Do you think LHO gave a RA about anything related to
the USMC when he was already working towards an "Early Out" based on a
quite fraudulent 'Hardship" discharge?
Exactlly what portion of "Don't give a Rat's A** " was it that you also
failed to understand?
tomnln
Volume VIII pages 236-239.
Oswald was a Lousy shot.
We sometimes ALTERED scores to make the unit look good.
Oswald never hit anything he aimed at with a SHOTGUN
Volume V page 405.
"Brokedad" <tempty...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1192716552.9...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Brokedad
>
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...
>
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol...
>
> Note: 12--"5's & 6- "4"'s certainly looks like a "shooter" to me!
>
>
> 46 out of possible 50----aka 92 out of possible 100-----aka 92nd
> percentile rating.
>
> Anthony!
>
> Since "higher math" appears to be above you, perhaps the pictures will
> help.
>
> P.S. Add the total for the actual day of Rangefire Qualification, and one
> comes to a total score of 417, not the "handwirtten" score of 412/ mm
> which has been forged into LHO's Service Record.
>
> 417 = 3 points below that score necessary to qualify as EXPERT (420), and
> this with having completely "blown" one firing station.
>
> P.P.S. Exactly what about application for Albert Schweitzer College in
> March 1959, when the purported requalification firing record of 191
> occurred in May 1959. Do you think LHO gave a RA about anything related to
> the USMC when he was already working towards an "Early Out" based on a
> quite fraudulent 'Hardship" discharge?
>
> Exactlly what portion of "Don't give a Rat's A** " was it that you also
>
> - Show quoted text -
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/01/0145-001.gif
Anthony: Did you not understand the reading assignment?
Exactly what part of 8 or 10 rounds fired and all of them with the
exception of one struck the bullseye, was it that you did not
understand?
And, in event that you will read all of the applicable testimonies,
then you will find that LHO did this shooting feat in a "rapid fire"
situation.
Of course one could also point out to those others who do not bother
to do their homework, as to why none of LHO's cartridge hulls were
found at the Sprots Drone Rifle Range.
And, the correct answer is: Because he caught them, placed them into
his pocket, and took them with him.
Anthony Marsh
So, you are claiming that someone forged evidence? Who did it? And prove
that.
> 417 = 3 points below that score necessary to qualify as EXPERT (420), and
> this with having completely "blown" one firing station.
>
Show me where 420 is the qualification for expert.
> P.P.S. Exactly what about application for Albert Schweitzer College in
> March 1959, when the purported requalification firing record of 191
> occurred in May 1959. Do you think LHO gave a RA about anything related to
> the USMC when he was already working towards an "Early Out" based on a
> quite fraudulent 'Hardship" discharge?
>
> Exactlly what portion of "Don't give a Rat's A** " was it that you also
> failed to understand?
>
So, your idea is that the scores are meaningless because Oswald was
intentionally trying to fail?
>
tomnln
> Of course one could also point out to those others who do not bother
> to do their homework, as to why none of LHO's cartridge hulls were
> found at the Sprots Drone Rifle Range.
>
> And, the correct answer is: Because he caught them, placed them into
> his pocket, and took them with him.
Where were those cartridge hulls found?
Oswald's rooming house?
Ruth Paine's house?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Marsh
Maybe you missed my previous reply.
Not stated in that account is the range of the target. A
Mannlicher-Carcano can hit the bullseye at the zero range of 200 yards
using the undamaged scope, yet hit high and to the right at much closer
distances such as in Dealey Plaza.
The trajectory of a Mannlicher-Carcano is very curved instead of flat
like the M-1 he used in the Marines. So, hitting bullseyes at the
correct distance it can miss by a wide margin at closer distances.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Whelan81.jpg
> Exactly what part of 8 or 10 rounds fired and all of them with the
> exception of one struck the bullseye, was it that you did not
> understand?
>
Why should I accept such hearsay as a fact?
> And, in event that you will read all of the applicable testimonies,
> then you will find that LHO did this shooting feat in a "rapid fire"
> situation.
>
> Of course one could also point out to those others who do not bother
> to do their homework, as to why none of LHO's cartridge hulls were
> found at the Sprots Drone Rifle Range.
>
There is no proof that Oswald was at the Sportdome Gun Range.
> And, the correct answer is: Because he caught them, placed them into
> his pocket, and took them with him.
>
Caught them? In mid air?
>
>
claviger
According to the discipline of Formal Logic this discussion is an exercise
in futility. One of the tenets of Formal Logic is you can't prove a
negative. There is no way to prove what LHO could NOT do, only what he DID
do. Even LHO doesn't know what he cannot do until he tries. The same is
true for all of us.
Of course, that fact won't stand in the way of a good argument. One factor
is LHO qualified with a semi-automatic M1 Garand, did he not? I'm assuming
this to be the case based on the time frame he was in the Marine Corp.
Nevertheless, Oswald did a more than adequate job in Marine Quals. He
proved he could point a rifle and hit the target.
One hearsay story that has never been verified is that GnySgt Carlos
Hathcock and a group of Marines tried to duplicate Oswald's shooting
performance at MCB Quantico. Supposedly after several attempts not one
Marine could do what Oswald did in Dealey Plaza: hit a slow moving target
at less than 100 yards from a 60' tower 2 out of 3 times with a
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. I called MCB Quantico and asked the Marine Corp
historian about this test and no one knows anything about it. The
historian was skeptical this test ever took place because the are no
records and he never heard any oral history about it either.
For the sake of argument let's assume the story is true. How could well
trained snipers at Quantico not equal Oswald's shooting feat of 3 shots in
6 seconds with 2/3 hits on the target? I've given this some thought and
the only explanation I can come up with is this. The Marine sniper motto
is "One shot, one kill." The emphasis is on the first shot, not rapid
fire. Had a trained Marine sniper been on the Sixth Floor that day only
one shot would have been needed. The fact it took three shots to kill the
target is proof of a less than professional shooter on the Sixth Floor.
My theory is on the first shot LHO had what is known as "Buck fever."
Almost every hunter has experienced this phenomenon at some point in their
life. It is a nervous condition where the shooter has a pounding heatbeat
and cannot control his breathing. When this happens it is difficult to
keep the crosshair on the target. The shooter has to make the decision
whether to pull the trigger or not. Once the rifle is fired another
phenomenon takes over. The shooter goes on autopilot so to speak. He
simply reacts without thinking. Some hunters call this "Zen" shooting
because it just happens by instinct. Amazing second and third shots have
been made this way at moving targets.
The limousine was moving down Elm Street where the slope favored the
shooter. As the vehicle curved left it presented a stationary inline
target to the position on the Sixth Floor. The curve in the trajectory of
the MC could have actually compensated for the inability of LHO to lead
the target correctly. No one has mentioned where the top of the trajectory
is. Would it be 100 yards? If I remember correctly all 3 shots took place
inside 65 yards from the window.
No one knew the feel of the bolt action on that particular rifle better
than LHO. Marina noticed he would sit on the couch and work the bolt
action over and over again. He was probably trying to smooth out the
action which can be stiff if it hasn't been fired much. Using this same
rifle LHO would have a major advantage in a contest with a better shooter
because of familiarity with the instinctive feel of the bolt action. This
may explain why well trained Marine snipers were unable to match the
shooting performance with a rifle they were unfamiliar with.
tomnln
ps;
Three NRA "Masters" (Staley/Miller/Hendricks) could NOT duplicate what the
WC attributed to Oswald.
(Using CE-139)
Volume III pages 446-447.
An NRA "Master" is qualified to shoot in Olympic Competition.
Would You like to be Convicted on Evidence/testimony or, A THEORY?
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193072333.9...@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
claviger
> Just like the WCR, you offer "Theories" that can NOT be proven.
>
> ps;
> Three NRA "Masters" (Staley/Miller/Hendricks) could NOT duplicate what the
> WC attributed to Oswald.
> (Using CE-139)
> Volume III pages 446-447.
>
> An NRA "Master" is qualified to shoot in Olympic Competition.
>
> Would You like to be Convicted on Evidence/testimony or, A THEORY?
>
tomnin,
What we are all trying to do is figure out what really happened that day
in Dealey Plaza and why. We might be able to figure out how it happened,
but never figure out why. Part of the process of reaching a conclusion is
to develop a theory and see if the evidence points in that direction.
Obviously there are numerous theories about this assassination. One might
be right or none might be right.
You are offering a negative theory concerning LHO by presenting as
evidence the experiment where these 3 Master marksmen could not duplicate
Oswald's shooting feat. Do we draw from this conclusion that if 3 experts
can't do it then nobody can? The apocryphal story of GnySgt Carlos
Hathcock and Marine snipers who could not match Oswald's performance would
seem to confirm this conclusion. So if experts can't do it then no one
can! It seems a logical conclusion, right?
Yet someone shot the President from the Sixth Floor window. We have
several witnesses who saw a human being with a rifle shooting at the
motorcade. The majority of medical experts are of the opinion all shots
which struck the body came from behind the limousine. The HSCA concluded
there was a shot from the GK but it missed, so all lethal shots striking
the President were fired from somewhere in back of the limousine.
Furthermore, during the CBS test in 1967 several non- Masters not only
duplicated Oswald's shooting performance, some actually surpassed it! We
seem to have a paradox where experts can't match Oswald but amateurs can.
Is there a reason why?
My guess is Military and Competition shooting is focused on strict
discipline of breathing, trigger squeeze, analysis of windage and
distance, etc. There is a methodical approach to every shot. What experts
had a hard time matching is 3 rounds in 5.6 seconds with 2/3 hits on a
moving target. My guess is every Master marksman and Marine sniper would
have needed only one shot to make a lethal hit on the target. Only an
amateur needed a second and third shot. The Masters and Marines are not
trained in speed shooting. They are trained in accurate shooting.
So how is it the shooter on the Sixth Floor who outperformed the experts
missed the entire limousine with his first shot? Some think he fired
through tree branches and one of them deflected the bullet which caromed
off the pavement. We have six witnesses who testified they saw something
like a firecracker explode next to the limousine. There is no proof any
firecrackers were tossed at the limousine, so it must have been something
else. Like a bullet making impact with the pavement. If the bullet
disintegrated on impact particles of various sizes may spread in several
directions. Judging from the Zapruder film JFK was waving to the crowd to
his right when this happened. A fragment and superficial wounds were found
on the back of his head during the autopsy. These wounds are consistent
with a bullet ricochet from behind the President.
There is nothing wrong with this analysis. However, I have my own theory
why the first shot missed. One might think LHO was extremely nervous prior
to his ambush of the motorcade. Whatever thoughts and emotions go through
his mind take place before he pulls the trigger the first time. I believe
he was gripped with "buck fever" when aiming his first shot. With heart
pounding and elevated breathing it is difficult, if not impossible, to
keep the crosshair on target. He takes the shot anyway jerking the
trigger, causing a wild shot that misses the limousine altogether. As soon
as the first shot is over he automatically reacts with something so
familiar he doesn't need to think about it. He instinctively works the
bolt like he's done a thousand times since he received the rifle, puts the
crosshair on the target, and pulls the trigger. The target seems
unaffected by this shot too. A second miss! He rechambers one more time
and fires again. This time he sees the impact on the target. His evil deed
is done and now it's time to find out if escape is a possibilty.
There is one more theory needs to be considered. LHO was able to get off
only two shots. The first was off target and the second struck the
President. Before he can fire a third time he hears a loud report of a
rifle on the street level. It sounds like it came from the motorcade
itself! He stares dumnfounded as the President's head explodes. Where did
this shot come from? The President's head is knocked backward by the shot.
Is somebody shooting from the fence on the hill to the right of the
motorcade? LHO earlier considered this position but didn't like the odds
of escaping after the shot. He especially didn't like the idea someone in
the RR tower might be watching his every move and call the cops. He
decides instead to build a wall of boxes to screen his shooting position.
The only thing is the shot sounded like it was closer than that. What the
heck is going on? He hides the rifle and makes for the exit.
tomnln
"Theory" is what Lost all credibility for the WC
You neglect to mention that all the "Original Reports" stated that the
shots came from the grassy knoll.
You neglect to mention that Everyone raced to the grassy knoll.
All except two Proven Liars. (Baker/Brennan)
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1193182462....@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
claviger
> Your "Theory" is as tenable as the WCR.
>
> "Theory" is what Lost all credibility for the WC
>
> You neglect to mention that all the "Original Reports" stated that the
> shots came from the grassy knoll.
tomnin,
I read somewhere the first impression by many witnesses is the shots
came from the Triple Underpass (meaning the RR overpass) or viaduct as
the locals call it. When it was determined that two DPD officers were
on top the RR crossing at the time shots were fired attention shifted
to the Grassy Knoll. Lee Bowers said he thought the shots either came
from the RR overpass or the TSBD building. There are a couple of
reasons why he thought so. First, as he explained he was familiar with
sounds that echo in this area from having heard construction noise
when work was done on the TSBD building. Second, he could see the area
behind the fence and there was no one back there. He could see two men
near "the mouth of the Triple Overpass", that's all. As he explains he
saw a "commotion" involving these two onlookers. He also said they
remained there when police came up to them. Evidently they were
unarmed bystanders. Nowhere does Lee Bowers ever say he saw anyone run
from the GK to the RR boxcars. That story comes from James R Sterling
and there is no way to verify Bowers ever said that.
> You neglect to mention that Everyone raced to the grassy knoll.
Then let me mention it now. Police and the crowd of onlookers
converged on the Grassy Knoll from two directions in 60 seconds or
less, according to some witnesses. The RR workers on top the overpass
ran down the slope into the area behind the wooden fence to see if
anybody was there. On the other side DPD Smith led the charge up the
Grassy Knoll followed by several onlookers and DCSD deputies. All the
while Lee Bowers is watching this excitement take place. No person was
seen with a rifle in hand. How did a shooter get away that fast? Even
the James R Sterling story sounds too slow to avoid being seen by
somebody in this stampede up the Knoll.
> All except two Proven Liars. (Baker/Brennan)
Why are they proven liars?
Anthony Marsh
That is not true. Many of the WC defenders do not want to know.
> but never figure out why. Part of the process of reaching a conclusion is
> to develop a theory and see if the evidence points in that direction.
It also helps to actually look at the evidence.
> Obviously there are numerous theories about this assassination. One might
> be right or none might be right.
>
> You are offering a negative theory concerning LHO by presenting as
> evidence the experiment where these 3 Master marksmen could not duplicate
> Oswald's shooting feat. Do we draw from this conclusion that if 3 experts
> can't do it then nobody can? The apocryphal story of GnySgt Carlos
> Hathcock and Marine snipers who could not match Oswald's performance would
> seem to confirm this conclusion. So if experts can't do it then no one
> can! It seems a logical conclusion, right?
>
> Yet someone shot the President from the Sixth Floor window. We have
> several witnesses who saw a human being with a rifle shooting at the
> motorcade. The majority of medical experts are of the opinion all shots
> which struck the body came from behind the limousine. The HSCA concluded
They are wrong.
> there was a shot from the GK but it missed, so all lethal shots striking
> the President were fired from somewhere in back of the limousine.
They were wrong. And the acoustical scientists think the grassy knoll
shot hit.
> Furthermore, during the CBS test in 1967 several non- Masters not only
> duplicated Oswald's shooting performance, some actually surpassed it! We
> seem to have a paradox where experts can't match Oswald but amateurs can.
> Is there a reason why?
>
> My guess is Military and Competition shooting is focused on strict
> discipline of breathing, trigger squeeze, analysis of windage and
> distance, etc. There is a methodical approach to every shot. What experts
> had a hard time matching is 3 rounds in 5.6 seconds with 2/3 hits on a
> moving target. My guess is every Master marksman and Marine sniper would
That is not hard at all.
The grassy knoll shot came too close to the last shot from the TSBD to
startle the TSBD into hesitating. Less than a second.
tomnln
Thanks for asking>>>
HSCA Volume 1 NO ECHO
Mr. FITHIAN. One last question, Mr. Chairman. When you heard any of
the two shots that you heard, Governor, or any of the three that you
heard, Mrs. Connally, was there any echo; did you hear any echo from the
building, or was there any sort of a sound effect along with it?
Mrs. CONNALLY. No.
Page 55
55
Baker gave FIVE (5) Different accounts of the lunchroom encounter with
Oswald.
Brennan requesred IMMUNITY from the HSCA.
Have you read the Wc's 26 Volumes of evidence/testimony Sir?
Anthony Marsh
Not that fast. It took at least a minute for the crowd to rush the
grassy knoll. Plenty of time for someone to get away.
cdddraftsman
> cdddraftsman wrote:
> > I think the point has been made that he was more then qualified to
> > have made the shots atributed to him in Dealey Plaza . Thanks for the
> > replys , for what there worth : One good reply and four who choose to
> > remain in denail :-( sad face by all when enlightenment strikes
> > home .........tl
>
> I think almost anyone could have missed twice out of three shots.
In the 67 CBS trials one man hit 3 out of 3 in 5.6 sec. LHO had 8.3 sec.
Case closed !
John Blubaugh
He wasn't using Oswald's piece of crap weapon that jammed all the time.
That weapon was remanufactured to prevent the jamming. I doubt that given
four tries with Oswald's weapon as found that anyone could fast shoot that
rifle three times without it jamming on three of the four attempts.
JB
Anthony Marsh
More nonsense. The TSBD shooter did not hit 3 out of 3.
Blakey fired two shots within 1.6 seconds. So what?
claviger
> "claviger" <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
What are the 5 different accounts? Surely you can briefly summerize
what they are.
1
2
3
4
5
Brennen was just one of many witnesses. Why would he need immunity
from the HSCA?
tomnln
> What are the 5 different accounts? Surely you can briefly summerize
> what they are.
>
> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5
ALL 5 HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
> Brennen was just one of many witnesses. Why would he need immunity
> from the HSCA?
Because he LIED Under Oath.
You Forgot this one>>> Have you read the Wc's 26 Volumes of
evidence/testimony Sir?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Marsh
Maybe because he knew he lied.
>
>
Anthony Marsh
> On Oct 25, 9:58 pm, cdddraftsman <cdddrafts...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 7, 7:08 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> cdddraftsman wrote:
>>>> I think the point has been made that he was more then qualified to
>>>> have made the shots atributed to him in Dealey Plaza . Thanks for the
>>>> replys , for what there worth : One good reply and four who choose to
>>>> remain in denail :-( sad face by all when enlightenment strikes
>>>> home .........tl
>>> I think almost anyone could have missed twice out of three shots.
>> In the 67 CBS trials one man hit 3 out of 3 in 5.6 sec. LHO had 8.3 sec.
>>
>> Case closed !
>
> He wasn't using Oswald's piece of crap weapon that jammed all the time.
> That weapon was remanufactured to prevent the jamming. I doubt that given
How was it remanufactured, by whom, and prove it.
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
> On Oct 5, 11:32 am, cdddraftsman <cdddrafts...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thomas H. Purvis wrote :
>
> > ( Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO ) :
>
> > 200 Yard Rapid Fire
>
> > Friday , Dec 21 ( Qualification ) : Score of 48 out of maximum of
> > possible 50 .
>
> > Thursday , December 20 ( practice ) : Score of 43 out of maximum of
> > possible 50 .
>
> > Wednesday , December 19 ( practice ) : Score of 49 out of maximum of
> > possible 50.
>
> > Tuesday , December 18 ( practice ) : Score of 73 out of maximum of
> > possible 80 .
>
> > Monday , December 17 ( practice ) : Appears to be a score of 46 out of
> > maximum of possible 50 .
>
> > Thursday : ( prior week ) first day of shooting practice : Score of 24
> > out of maximum of possible 25 .
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > It appears that this 200 yard rapid fire shooting was from the sitting
> > position , and this also represents some of the best shooting of/by
> > LHO .
>
> > And , the above results demonstrate that LHO was quite proficient with
> > the rifle , in a rapid fire exercise , at a range of 200 yards , which
> > happens to be twice the distance of the longest shot
> > made in Dealy Plaza .
>
> > What most are unaware of in the shooting skills of LHO ( & all
> > Marines ) , is that their qualification , not unlike he ACT/GED/etc ;
> > etc ; etc ; is based on shooting ability from a number of different
> > shooting positions , from a variety of ranges/distances .
>
> > Therefore , one could shoot absolutely perfect scores at shorter
> > ranges and from stable firing positions , yet do badly on other
> > portions of the course at longer ranges and different positions , and
> > only therefore only qualify to the basic minimum " Marksman " or
> > " Sharpshooter " ability .
>
> > For all practical purposes , LHO initially began shooting in the high
> > " EXPERT " range for the 200 yard-rapid fire exercise , from the
> > sitting position . And , even on the day in which he qualified at only
> > barely a " Sharpshooter ", he still was in the 96 percentile rating
> > for this particular portion of the qualification which was for the
> > shorter ranges from a stable firing position ( sitting ) .
>
> > The USMC rifle qualification requires shooting from the sitting
> > position ; kneeling position ; prone position ; and unfortunately for
> > many , the " Off-Hand " position , which is standing with absolutely
> > nothing except the feet on the ground for firing position/platform
> > stability .
>
> > In addition , ranges for qualification begin at the 200 yard mark and
> > thereafter progress to 300 yard targets , and then to 500 yard
> > targets .
>
> > So , based on LHO's initial/entry shooting ability , as well as his
> > shooting skill at the time of qualification , one can rest assured
> > that they did not want LHO to be shooting at them at a distance of 200
> > yards , in a rapid-fire condition , when he had a stable/sitting
> > position .
>
> > And , without going through all of the specifics of his shooting
> > ability at the 300 yard/rapid fire portion of final qualification , it
> > should suffice to demonstrate that he fired a score of 46 out of a
> > maximum possible score of 50 , on this portion of qualification .
>
> > ___________________________________________________
>
> > LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds , rapid fire , at a
> > target that was 200 yards down range .
>
> > His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25 , and four of the
> > rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-
> > inch square .
>
> > Now , to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21 :
>
> > The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5)
> > different firing stations , which were :
>
> > a. 200 yard Rapid Fire
> > b. 300 yard Rapid Fire
> > c. 200 yard Slow
> > d. 300 yard Slow
> > e. 500 yard Slow
>
> > Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points , for 250
> > points maximum score .
>
> > Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were :
>
> > a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman
> > b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter
> > c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert
>
> > Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above , in order
> > to attain the " EXPERT " qualification .
> > ( 220 divided by 250 = .88 )
>
> > December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO :
>
> > 1. 200 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 48 out of possible
> > 50--------% rating :---96%
> > Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
> > range .
>
> > 2. 300 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 46 out of possible
> > 50--------% rating :--92%
> > Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
> > range .
>
> > 3. 500 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 46 out of possible
> > 50--------% rating :--92%
> > Classification for this shooting station :--------UPPER EXPERT range.
>
> > 4. 200 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 39 out of possible
> > 50--------% rating :--78%
> > Classification for this shooting station :--------- BOTTOM range for
> > Marksman qualification.
>
> > 5. 300 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 33 out of possible
> > 50--------% rating :--66%
> > Classification for this shooting station :-------Failure. Does not
> > even qualify for Marksman .
>
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Now !
>
> > The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
>
> > The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> > The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
>
> > The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
> > position ) *
>
> > The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
> > position.**
>
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing
> > position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
> > firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
> > to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathing
> > control , etc ;.
>
> > **Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
> > for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
> > ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
> > station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
> > adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
> > attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
> > wind speed increase .
> > Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
> > that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
> > center .
>
> > The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
>
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > >From this information , and that which demonstrates that LHO entered
>
> > the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position ,
> > one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest
> > and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on , LHO
> > easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification .
>
> > His capability for " Free-Hand "/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported
> > firing was marginal , and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-
> > Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct
> > for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment
> > through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots
> > fired .
>
> > Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot , knows little of
> > what they speak .
>
> > Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with
> > absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have
> > missed JFK on at least one of the three shots .
>
> > He was not in a cow pasture .
>
> > He was , for all practical purposes , firing from a sitting/bench rest
> > position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the
> > weapon for shooting accuracy . ( see Bench Rest for shooting
> > accuracy ) .
>
> > >From which position , LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually
>
> > uppermost ranges for EXPERT , and qualified on December 21 in the
> > uppermost ranges for EXPERT , in a rapid-fire shooting environment .
>
> > Ask a Marine shooter about this .
>
> I have asked and I qualified in the army. These scores are useless
> information. Ask your Marine buddies if ANYONE ever failed to qualify. In
> the army, if you failed to qualify, the score was changed. If you needed a
> little help to move up a rank, it was readily provided. I put more trust
> in the Marines who served with Oswald who said he was a very poor shot and
> the fact that the Russians noted he couldn't hit a rabbit with a shotgun.
> Oswald was not qualifying with a piece of crap weapon that jammed all of
> the time. The next thing you will quote is that experts had no trouble
> duplicating Oswald's shots with a rifle like his. What about the rifle he
> actually had? How did they do trying to duplicate it with that weapon? The
> fact is that Oswald's rifle was not zeroed in to shoot at the distance
> necessary and making those shots at that short range would have been
> almost impossible.
>
***I went through Army basic and i never heard that anyone's score was
changed. I had never fired a rifle before basic and had no trouble at
all, hitting the closest target. I would doubt that anyone's score would
have to be changed in order for them to get a minimum passing grade.
What evidence do you have for what distance Oswald's M/C was zeroed for?
The scope was off, high and to the right, when test fired, but the scope
was not the only means of sighting the rifle.
***Ron Judge
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net
> Brokedad wrote:
>
> > In the rapid fire courses, one must go from the standing position to the
> > firing position, acquire the target, shoot 5 rounds, re-load the weapon
> > with a new magazine, re-acquire the target, and then complete another
> > 5-round firing.
>
> > All in 70 seconds or less.
>
> > Which time includes going from the standing position to the actual firing
> > position and acquiring the target for the first shot, as well as that time
> > required to reload the weapon, and yet still average a firing time of
> > 7-seconds per shot.
>
> > LHO's Record:
>
> > 200 yard Rapid Fire Station: Score----48 of 50 Percentile
> > Rating:-------96
>
> > 300 yard Rapid Fire Station: Score----46 of 50 Percentile
> > Rating:-------92
>
> Tell everyone what Maggie's Drawers means and what shitbird means.- Hide quoted text -
***Tell everyone what shooting for record means.
John Blubaugh
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I saw it done in army basic training It was done to get poor shots
through and to boost the companies overall score.
JB
Anthony Marsh
r2bz...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
> On Oct 5, 6:38 pm, John Blubaugh <jbluba...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Oct 5, 11:32 am, cdddraftsman <cdddrafts...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Thomas H. Purvis wrote :
>>> ( Pre-Qualification shooting of LHO ) :
>>> 200 Yard Rapid Fire
>>> Friday , Dec 21 ( Qualification ) : Score of 48 out of maximum of
>>> possible 50 .
>>> Thursday , December 20 ( practice ) : Score of 43 out of maximum of
>>> possible 50 .
>>> Wednesday , December 19 ( practice ) : Score of 49 out of maximum of
>>> possible 50.
>>> Tuesday , December 18 ( practice ) : Score of 73 out of maximum of
>>> possible 80 .
>>> Monday , December 17 ( practice ) : Appears to be a score of 46 out o=
f
>>> maximum of possible 50 .
>>> Thursday : ( prior week ) first day of shooting practice : Score of 2=
4
>>> out of maximum of possible 25 .
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=AD=AD----------------------
>>> It appears that this 200 yard rapid fire shooting was from the sittin=
g
>>> position , and this also represents some of the best shooting of/by
>>> LHO .
>>> And , the above results demonstrate that LHO was quite proficient wit=
h
>>> the rifle , in a rapid fire exercise , at a range of 200 yards , whic=
h
>>> happens to be twice the distance of the longest shot
>>> made in Dealy Plaza .
>>> What most are unaware of in the shooting skills of LHO ( & all
>>> Marines ) , is that their qualification , not unlike he ACT/GED/etc ;
>>> etc ; etc ; is based on shooting ability from a number of different
>>> shooting positions , from a variety of ranges/distances .
>>> Therefore , one could shoot absolutely perfect scores at shorter
>>> ranges and from stable firing positions , yet do badly on other
>>> portions of the course at longer ranges and different positions , and
>>> only therefore only qualify to the basic minimum " Marksman " or
>>> " Sharpshooter " ability .
>>> For all practical purposes , LHO initially began shooting in the high
>>> " EXPERT " range for the 200 yard-rapid fire exercise , from the
>>> sitting position . And , even on the day in which he qualified at onl=
y
>>> barely a " Sharpshooter ", he still was in the 96 percentile rating
>>> for this particular portion of the qualification which was for the
>>> shorter ranges from a stable firing position ( sitting ) .
>>> The USMC rifle qualification requires shooting from the sitting
>>> position ; kneeling position ; prone position ; and unfortunately for
>>> many , the " Off-Hand " position , which is standing with absolutely
>>> nothing except the feet on the ground for firing position/platform
>>> stability .
>>> In addition , ranges for qualification begin at the 200 yard mark and
>>> thereafter progress to 300 yard targets , and then to 500 yard
>>> targets .
>>> So , based on LHO's initial/entry shooting ability , as well as his
>>> shooting skill at the time of qualification , one can rest assured
>>> that they did not want LHO to be shooting at them at a distance of 20=
0
>>> yards , in a rapid-fire condition , when he had a stable/sitting
>>> position .
>>> And , without going through all of the specifics of his shooting
>>> ability at the 300 yard/rapid fire portion of final qualification , i=
t
>>> should suffice to demonstrate that he fired a score of 46 out of a
>>> maximum possible score of 50 , on this portion of qualification .
>>> ___________________________________________________
>>> LHO stepped up to the plate and fired five rounds , rapid fire , at a
>>> target that was 200 yards down range .
>>> His score was a 24 our of a possible maximum of 25 , and four of the
>>> rounds fired struck within a shot pattern grouping of less than a 4-
>>> inch square .
>>> Now , to LHO's final Range Fire Qualification on December 21 :
>>> The USMC Range Fire Qualification consisted of firing on five (5)
>>> different firing stations , which were :
>>> a. 200 yard Rapid Fire
>>> b. 300 yard Rapid Fire
>>> c. 200 yard Slow
>>> d. 300 yard Slow
>>> e. 500 yard Slow
>>> Each station carried a weight/maximum points of 50 points , for 250
>>> points maximum score .
>>> Marksmanship qualifications ratings for the earned scores were :
>>> a. 190 to 209 score-----------------Marksman
>>> b. 210 to 219 score-----------------Sharpshooter
>>> c. 220 to 250 score-----------------Expert
>>> Therefore, one had to shoot in the 88th percentile or above , in orde=
r
>>> to attain the " EXPERT " qualification .
>>> ( 220 divided by 250 =3D .88 )
>>> December 21 Range Fire Qualification of LHO :
>>> 1. 200 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 48 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :---96%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
>>> range .
>>> 2. 300 yard Rapid Fire :-------------Score : 46 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--92%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :---------UPPER EXPERT
>>> range .
>>> 3. 500 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 46 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--92%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :--------UPPER EXPERT range.
>>> 4. 200 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 39 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--78%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :--------- BOTTOM range for
>>> Marksman qualification.
>>> 5. 300 yard Slow Fire :--------------Score : 33 out of possible
>>> 50--------% rating :--66%
>>> Classification for this shooting station :-------Failure. Does not
>>> even qualify for Marksman .
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=AD=AD-------------------
>>> Now !
>>> The 200 yard Rapid Fire was shot from the sitting position .
>>> The 300 yard Raid Fire was shot from the prone position .
>>> The 500 yard Slow Fire was shot from the prone position .
>>> The 200 yard Slow Fire was shot from the off-hand ( standing
>>> position ) *
>>> The 300 yard slow fire appears to have been from the kneeling
>>> position.**
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=AD=AD--------------------
>>> * The 200 yard SLOW FIRE station is shot from the Off-Hand/ standing
>>> position in which the shooter must provide the stable platform for
>>> firing . It is one of the most difficult shooting positions for most
>>> to master and requires considerable concentration along with breathin=
g
>>> control , etc ;.
>>> **Although the 300 yard " SLOW-FIRE " station was a complete failure
>>> for LHO , it is noted that wind speeds had increased from virtually
>>> ZERO at previous stations to 5mph by the time that he fired this
>>> station . And , during this firing station , his " Windage " sight
>>> adjustment was changed through four different adjustments in an
>>> attempt to get the correct sighting which would compensate for the
>>> wind speed increase .
>>> Even with this , LHO managed a relative good " shot grouping ", just
>>> that they were all concentrated just below and to the right of target
>>> center .
>>> The 300 yard Slow Fire was shot from the kneeling position .
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
------=AD=AD---------------------
>>> >From this information , and that which demonstrates that LHO entered
>>> the USMC shooting virtually EXPERT from any stable firing position ,
>>> one can see that given a fixed firing position such as a bench rest
>>> and/or a window ledge and cardboard boxes to sit and rest on , LHO
>>> easily fired in the UPPER EXPERT ranges for the USMC qualification .
>>> His capability for " Free-Hand "/Off-Hand/standing & unsupported
>>> firing was marginal , and his virtual failure at the 300 yard Slow-
>>> Fire station is directly attributal to repeated attempts to correct
>>> for an increase in wind speed by changing his windage adjustment
>>> through 4 different positions through the course of the 10 shots
>>> fired .
>>> Anyone who thinks that LHO was not an excellent shot , knows little o=
f
>>> what they speak .
>>> Now, had he been standing in the middle of a cow pasture with
>>> absolutely no means of support, then he most probably would have
>>> missed JFK on at least one of the three shots .
>>> He was not in a cow pasture .
>>> He was , for all practical purposes , firing from a sitting/bench res=
t
>>> position in which he could support his entire arms as well as the
>>> weapon for shooting accuracy . ( see Bench Rest for shooting
>>> accuracy ) .
>>> >From which position , LHO entered the USMC shooting virtually
>>> uppermost ranges for EXPERT , and qualified on December 21 in the
>>> uppermost ranges for EXPERT , in a rapid-fire shooting environment .
>>> Ask a Marine shooter about this .
>> I have asked and I qualified in the army. These scores are useless
>> information. Ask your Marine buddies if ANYONE ever failed to qualify.=
In
>> the army, if you failed to qualify, the score was changed. If you need=
ed a
>> little help to move up a rank, it was readily provided. I put more tru=
st
>> in the Marines who served with Oswald who said he was a very poor shot=
and
>> the fact that the Russians noted he couldn't hit a rabbit with a shotg=
un.
>> Oswald was not qualifying with a piece of crap weapon that jammed all =
of
>> the time. The next thing you will quote is that experts had no trouble
>> duplicating Oswald's shots with a rifle like his. What about the rifle=
he
>> actually had? How did they do trying to duplicate it with that weapon?=
The
>> fact is that Oswald's rifle was not zeroed in to shoot at the distance
>> necessary and making those shots at that short range would have been
>> almost impossible.
>>
>=20
> ***I went through Army basic and i never heard that anyone's score was=20
> changed. I had never fired a rifle before basic and had no trouble at=20
> all, hitting the closest target. I would doubt that anyone's score wou=
ld=20
> have to be changed in order for them to get a minimum passing grade.
>=20
Apples and oranges. You were Army. Oswald was Marine. We are pointing out
what his fellow Marines said.
> What evidence do you have for what distance Oswald's M/C was zeroed for=
? =20
The scope was set at Klein's for 200 yards. The iron sights are preset=20
and fixed at 300 meters. Oswald could not change them.
> The scope was off, high and to the right, when test fired, but the scop=
e=20
> was not the only means of sighting the rifle.
>=20
The iron sights were preset for 300 meters, making the problem even worse.
tomnln
"John Blubaugh" <jblu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1193686737.3...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
JB
Also stated in the testimony of Nelson Delgado.
Oswald's Sgt. Volume VIII pages 236-239.
bigdog
> All of his Marine experience could not help him with the piece of junk
> Mannlicher-Carcano.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
That "piece of junk Mannlicher-Carcano" was the murder weapon.
Ballistics testing proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Obviously
someone killed JFK with that weapon and Oswald had the skill to be
that someone.
Anthony Marsh
No. Obviously someone wounded JFK with one hit out of three by pure
luck. The shot from the grassy knoll killed JFK. And the grassy knoll
shooter only took that shot because Oswald's rifle jammed.
claviger
Anthony,
Are you claiming there were 4 shots? The conclusion of the HSCA is
there were two shooters in Dealey Plaza. According to their
investigation the shooter on the 6th floor of the TSBD is the one who
did all the damage, because the shooter on the GK missed. The HSCA
relied completely on the acoustic evidence to support the theory of a
second shooter. As you know this acoustic evidence has been thoroughly
debunked.
There is no other evidence to support a shooter on the Knoll. Witness
Charles Brehm, who was familiar with bolt action rifles, emphatically
states there was no shot from the Knoll. It was quite apparent to him
the shots came from one of two buildings at the corner of Elm and
Houston streets.
claviger
bigdog,
You might find these articles interesting reading:
Italys Mannlicher-Carcano: how did such a good rifle get such a bad
reputation?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_53/ai_n19313646
6.5x52
Chuck Hawks shares his knowledge about the 6.5x52 Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle. ...
http://www.chuckhawks.com/mannlicher-carcano_rifle.htm
_________________________________________________________
The one real virtue of the M-91 is that it was a fast to operate.
Perhaps this was partly because the action was not real tight, and
partly due to the Mannlicher design. But for whatever reason, the bolt
slid very easily and very fast in its recess. A buddy of mine owned an
M-91 Carbine, and I remember it as being the fastest bolt action
military rifle I ever cycled. Practically anyone, with a minimum of
practice, could shoot a Mannlicher-Carcano rifle quickly.
_________________________________________________________
claviger
Anthony Marsh
> On Oct 30, 7:23 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> bigdog wrote:
>>> On Oct 15, 9:30 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> All of his Marine experience could not help him with the piece of junk
>>>> Mannlicher-Carcano.- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> That "piece of junk Mannlicher-Carcano" was the murder weapon.
>>> Ballistics testing proved this beyond a shadow of a doubt. Obviously
>>> someone killed JFK with that weapon and Oswald had the skill to be
>>> that someone.
>> No. Obviously someone wounded JFK with one hit out of three by pure
>> luck. The shot from the grassy knoll killed JFK. And the grassy knoll
>> shooter only took that shot because Oswald's rifle jammed.
>
> Anthony,
>
> Are you claiming there were 4 shots? The conclusion of the HSCA is
No, I am claiming there were 5 shots. I believe the HSCA unfairly
rejected one on the tape.
> there were two shooters in Dealey Plaza. According to their
> investigation the shooter on the 6th floor of the TSBD is the one who
> did all the damage, because the shooter on the GK missed. The HSCA
> relied completely on the acoustic evidence to support the theory of a
> second shooter. As you know this acoustic evidence has been thoroughly
> debunked.
>
Yes, as you know I think the HSCA was wrong.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/headshot.txt
> There is no other evidence to support a shooter on the Knoll. Witness
Lots.
> Charles Brehm, who was familiar with bolt action rifles, emphatically
> states there was no shot from the Knoll. It was quite apparent to him
> the shots came from one of two buildings at the corner of Elm and
> Houston streets.
>
So what? Do not rely on one witness.
>
>
tomnln
The "Specific" weapon in question is CE-139.
FBI Expert took 2.3 seconds to cycle the bolt (bolted down to a bench)
Oswald was NO Expert.
claviger
tomnin,
I've read your website about DPD Baker three times and I cannot understand
the subtle differences you place so much emphasis on. I don't see where
he's lying about anything. His story is verified by Roy Truly, yet you
don't accuse him of lying. In his first statement (Affidavit 11/222/63)
Baker gets the wrong floor where the confrontation took place, but Truly
can correct this misstatement. Where does Baker lie about anything?
Obviously he saw movement by someone that caught his attention as he was
following Truly up the stairs. That someone turned out to be LHO. This
confrontation took place in the lunchroom. Both Baker and Truly state that
Oswald's hands were empty. No gun and no Coke can.
As soon as Truly confirmed Oswald was an employee the confrontation was
over and they proceeded up the stairs while Oswald no doubt breathed a big
sigh of relief, and then vacated the premises before DPD could secure the
building. To accuse Baker of lying is to accuse Truly of lying too. What
possible reason do they have to lie? If anything Baker should have lied
that he never saw Oswald at all. Why? Because allowing Oswald to escape
cost another DPD officer his life. No doubt that reality weighed heavy on
his mind for the rest of his life. The DPD was simply not trained on how
to respond to a situation like this and its painfully obvious they made
numerous mistakes.
claviger
Anthony,
Five shots. Three from the TSBD and two from the Grassy Knoll?
So now you agree with Gordon Arnold?
tomnln
Read them AGAIN;
Baker places himself in three different positions when he spotted Oswald.
Baker places Oswald in three different positions when spotting him.
http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anthony Marsh
Nope. Four from the TSBD and one from the grassy knoll.
> So now you agree with Gordon Arnold?
>
>
No, if you mean HIS theory of the shooting. Everyone can make up a
theory. But he was not even in Dealey Plaza that day.
>
claviger
tomnin,
Or in retelling the story Baker used different words to describe the
incident. Investigators generally consider the first interview the most
accurate. Sometimes witnesses can't remember small details and try to
guess at them. The bottom line is Truly tells the same story as Baker.
They were climbing the stairs with Truly leading the way. He noticed Baker
was not behind him and went back to see why. He found Baker pointing his
gun at LHO in the lunch room. After confirming LHO was an employee they
continued their search. What is your point in splitting hairs on how Baker
saw Oswald? The main point is he did see someone moving in the area and
stopped to check him out, and Truly confirms Baker did indeed confront an
empty handed Lee Harvey Oswald in the lunch room of the TSBD building.
Just because Baker doesn't remember exactly how he saw Oswald doesn't
change the basic facts of the story.
claviger
> "claviger" <historiae.fi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
tomnin,
> The "Specific" weapon in question is CE-139.
Yes.
> FBI Expert took 2.3 seconds to cycle the bolt (bolted down to a bench)
During the HSCA investigation Robert Blakey did it 1.5 sec and Gary
Cornwell did it in 1.2 sec with the same rifle, not bolted down.
> Oswald was NO Expert.
I agree with that opinion. An expert wouldn't have needed 3 shots.
claviger
Anthony,
> No. Obviously someone wounded JFK with one hit out of three by pure
> luck. The shot from the grassy knoll killed JFK. And the grassy knoll
> shooter only took that shot because Oswald's rifle jammed.
What kind of rifle did the GKS use, an SKS? How do you know Oswald's
rifle jammed?
> No, I am claiming there were 5 shots. I believe the HSCA unfairly
> rejected one on the tape.
Why unfairly?
> >> Yes, as you know I think the HSCA was wrong.
About the acoustic evidence?
>> There is no other evidence to support a shooter on the Knoll.
> Lots.
Lots of evidence? Such as?
> Nope. Four from the TSBD and one from the grassy knoll.
Four from the TSBD might require 2 shooters. Where were they located
and who were they? Did they act as a team or was one not aware of the
other?
>Everyone can make up a theory.
Of course. Many theories about this case. Only evidence can sort out
what really happenned.
tomnln
Show us Where Truly Supports Baker's Other 4 stories?
Was Oswald in the hallway between the 3rd floor Stairs/lunchroom?
Was Oswald inside the lunchroom Drinking a Coke"?
Was Oswald inside the lunchroom without a coke?
Was Oswald between the 2 lunchroom doors (foyer)?
Was Baker on the hallway between the 3rd floor stairs/lunchroom?
Was Baker standing at the outter door of the lunchroom when spotting Oswald?
Was Baker standing at the top step of the 1st floor stairs when spotting
Oswald?
THOSE are Baker's "Multiple Stories".
ALL HERE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
ALL Official.
tomnln
Please give Citation for these?
I seem to remember it was 1.66 seconds.
(From Chris Dodd)
claviger
tomnin,
Why does this matter? If Baker were to say "I just don't remember that
part." would you be satisfied? It sounds like you are suggesting the
rest of the story must be untrue because Baker doesn't remember this
one part of the story. Why don't you use the fact Baker didn't
remember which floor the lunch room was on to discount his story as
well?
Truly confirms what happened and where it happened. He doesn't know
how Baker caught a glimpse of movement and obviously neither does
Baker. So what? Baker did confront Oswald in the lunch room, there is
no disputing that. Why is this issue so important? Do you believe
Oswald is an innocent "patsy" and the DPD is framing Oswald with the
help of Roy Truly? Is that where your'e going with all this hair
splitting?
Can you not understand this was a shocking situation and a police
officer didn't have the luxury of timing himself and making notes
along the way? Baker rushed into the building asking for help in
finding the stairs to the roof where he thought the shots probably
came from. Truly saw him and offered assistance. After trying to get
an elevator they began climbing the stairway on the way to the roof
when Baker saw movement and decided to check it out. Do you fault him
for doing this? As a matter of fact he had the sniper in front of him
but didn't realize it. Too bad because Oswald was unarmed at this
point and could have been arrested easily. DPD Tippit was not so
lucky. Baker was satisfied this guy looked harmless and proceeded to
the roof. What is so hard to understand about this episode?
Anthony Marsh
No, the smoke did not come from the rifle. I think it was a
Mannlicher-Carcano, probably a carbine.
One of the shells found in the TSBD had a dented lip. That could only
happen by trying to reload too quickly, which caused the rifle to jam
and paused the shooting for five seconds.
>
>> No, I am claiming there were 5 shots. I believe the HSCA unfairly
>> rejected one on the tape.
>
> Why unfairly?
>
Because their only reason was that they said they had a better shot and
Oswald could not reload that quickly.
>
>>>> Yes, as you know I think the HSCA was wrong.
>
> About the acoustic evidence?
>
Sure, their match-up.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/headshot.txt
>
>>> There is no other evidence to support a shooter on the Knoll.
>
>> Lots.
>
> Lots of evidence? Such as?
Photographic. Medical. Physical.
>
>> Nope. Four from the TSBD and one from the grassy knoll.
>
> Four from the TSBD might require 2 shooters. Where were they located
> and who were they? Did they act as a team or was one not aware of the
> other?
>
The next open window would be #10.
Don't start with the two stranger theory.
robc...@netscape.com
sudden do okay in live fire?
According to the Warren Report, "Oswald was trained in the use of the
M-1 rifle. His practice scores were not very good, but when his
company fired for record on December 21, he scored 212, 2 points above
the score necessary to qualify as a "sharpshooter" on a marksman/
sharpshooter/expert scale."
Here's his fellow marines:
Nelson Delgado, Sherman Cooley, and James R. Persons served with
Oswald in the Marines and saw him shoot. Here is some of what they had
to say about his marksmanship ability:
Q. Did you fire with Oswald?
DELGADO. Right; I was in the same line. By that I mean we were on line
together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at
the same time, and I remember seeing his [shooting]. It was a pretty
big joke, because he got a lot of "Maggie's drawers," you know, a lot
of misses, but he didn't give a darn.
Q. Missed the target completely?
DELGADO. He just qualified, that's it. He wasn't as enthusiastic as
the rest of us. We all loved--liked, you know going to the range. (8 H
235)
In a filmed interview with attorney Mark Lane:
LANE. Was Oswald interested in guns?
DELGADO. They [the Warren Commission] say he was a gun enthusiast, but
I recall many instances where we stood inspections, and he was
constantly being gigged for having a dirty weapon and for taking
improper care of his weapon. He was always reminded when he had to
clean the weapon. He never took it upon himself to do so.
LANE. Do you have personal knowledge of Oswald's ability with a rifle?
DELGADO. At the range he couldn't prove by me that he was a good shot.
LANE. How did the FBI react to your statement that Oswald was a poor
shot?
DELGADO. They tried to disprove it. They did not like the idea when I
came up with the statement that Oswald, as far as I knew, was a very
poor shot.
This is my favorite quote:
* Sherman Cooley
Cooley said the following in an interview with former Rockefeller
Foundation fellow Henry Hurt:
If I had to pick one man in the whole United States to shoot me, I'd
pick Oswald. I saw the man shoot. There's no way he could have ever
learned to shoot well enough to do what they accused him of doing in
Dallas. (REASONABLE DOUBT, New York: Holt, Rinehart, and Winston,
1985, p. 99)
* James R. Persons
Hurt reported on what Persons said about Oswald's coordination and
shooting ability:
He [Persons] also remembers that Oswald possessed a lack of
coordination that contributed to his being very poor in rifle
marksmanship. (REASONABLE DOUBT, photo page 14, caption)
In addition to Sherman Cooley, Henry Hurt interviewed over fifty other
former Marine colleagues of Oswald's. Hurt reported the results of
those interviews:
On the subject of Oswald's shooting ability, there was virtually no
exception to Delgado's opinion that it was laughable. . . .
Many of the Marines mentioned that Oswald had a certain lack of
coordination that, they felt, was responsible for the fact that he had
difficulty learning to shoot. They believed it was the same deficiency
in coordination responsible for his reported inability to drive a car.
(REASONABLE DOUBT, pp. 99-100)
tomnln
WHY am I NOT surprised that you don't understyand that Baker LIEDE a
minimum of FOUR (4) Times?.
claviger
> WHY am I NOT surprised that you don't understyand that Baker LIEDE a
> minimum of FOUR (4) Times?.
>
> http://whokilledjfk.net/officer_m.htm
Tomnin,
Did he lie or did he just not remember the details? So to answer the
question he tried to rationalize how it happened. Again, why does it
matter when Truly verified every other part of the story? In fact, he
verified the most important part of the story: Baker had a face to face
confromtation with Lee Harvey Oswald in the lunch room. How do we know,
because Baker had no idea who the guy was? It was Truly who ID'd Oswald,
not Baker. Based on confirmation by Truly, Officer Baker decided to stop
wasting time with this guy and get to the roof which was his main
objective to begin with.
Little did he know the killer was in the lunch room, not on the roof. If I
were Baker I'd wish I never saw Oswald. Then I wouldn't have to second
guess my decision the rest of my life to let him go and kill a fellow DPD
officer that very afternoon. I would think about why didn't I stay on task
and get to the roof first, and then work my way back down, floor by floor.
Or better yet, why I didn't ask for back-up to guard all exits immediately
and trap the killer in the building. That could have led to a hostage
situation, but so could rushing to the roof.
The confrontation with Oswald doesn't prove a heck of a lot anyway. The
lunch room was closer to the ground floor than the 6th floor. Oswald could
claim he was on the ground floor with everybody else. Who could say he was
or wasn't? He could claim he was simply walking back to the 6th floor for
the same reason Baker and Truly had to, the elevator was too slow, and
besides that he could get a Coke on the way up. Baker and Truly could only
testify LHO was seen in the lunch room and they don't know if he was going
or coming.
All this chance meeting did was verify Oswald was in the building
immediately after the shooting. It has nothing to do with proving he was
the shooter. It was the rifle and shells, and no curtin rods, that
implicated Oswald. That and the fact Oswald was the only employee to take
off and run. Shooting a DPD cop dead didn't help bolster his claim of
innocence, plus trying to shoot at police inside the theater. None of this
is how an innocent man would react. It is how a guilty assassin would be
expected to respond.
So tell me again why does this matter and what does it prove? Even if
Baker lied, what does it prove? And why would he lie? Maybe he heard
footsteps and never actually saw Oswald until he entered the lunch room.
So What???
claviger
robcap,
Anecdotal stories are interesting but the records are what they are. Some
Marines have a slower learning curve but eventually get the hang of it.
For one thing if a recruit can't make it on the shooting range the Marines
usually wash out non-quals. Oswald didn't wash out so you now have to
prove the tests were rigged to keep him in. Why would they care if he's
not up to basic Marine standards?
As a matter of fact Marine expert witnesses testified his shooting was
about average and better than average in some instances. Were his Marine
buddies there beside him every time he practiced or shot for quals?
Doubtful, and besides they need to tend to their own business and not be
watching Oswald every minute. You are trying to prove a negative, which is
impossible. You can't prove what Owald could not do, because even he
doesn't know until he tries. You are also trying to prove he was incapable
of improvement. All human beings are capable of improvement given the
right kind of training, practice, and motivation.
The sequence of shots from the 6th floor is evidence in itself the shooter
was probably Oswald, because it was a repeat of Oswald's shooting
experience in Marine training. The 1st shot miss was a non- qual, the 2nd
shot hit was marksman, and the 3rd shot was sharpshooter. Had the last
shot been the first we could even rate it expert. However, each shot was
better than the one before, demonstrating this shooter improved each time.
The shots were not that difficult, all under 100 yards. Some hunters I
know don't even bother to use a scope at that close-in distance. Novices
and children can hit targets at under 100 yards. Having gone through
Marine Corp training Oswald had the ability to make all the shots in
Dealey Plaza. To say he didn't is an insult to the Marine Corp. They have
a saying "Even a bad Marine is a good shot compared to the rest of the
world."
tomnln
Baker LIED about Oswald's position.
WHICH of Baker's stories did Truly verify?
1?
2?
3?
4?
or 5?
We're talking about American Justice here claviger, NOT Nazi Justice.
"claviger" <histori...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1194058665.0...@v29g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
claviger
> Baker LIED about his own position.
> Baker LIED about Oswald's position.
>
> WHICH of Baker's stories did Truly verify?
> 1?
> 2?
> 3?
> 4?
> or 5?
>
> We're talking about American Justice here claviger, NOT Nazi Justice.
>
tomnin,
> We're talking about American Justice here claviger, NOT Nazi Justice.
Is it American Justice to smear a police officer's reputation because
in the middle of a very stressful situation he doesn't remember
exactly how he saw movement out of the corner of his eye, only that he
did and found a person passing through the lunch room? He didn't rush
in and shoot the guy dead, he told the him to halt which he did. As
soon as he was verified as an employee by the manager Baker lost
interest in this individual and continued up the stairway to the roof.
This seems pretty benign to me. The Nazis would have grabbed the guy
and tortured him till he confessed. Ironically they would have the
right guy but that is beside the point. In no way did Officer Baker
act like a Nazi bully. Perhaps he should have and J D Tippit might
still be alive. The point is Baker briefly checked out this employee
and moved on. Nazi justice would have punished Baker for respecting
the rights of this suspect and allowing him to escape.
I still don't understand the relevance of your complaint. The biggest
mistake Baker made was his preconceived notion of where the shots came
from. He was wrong. They did not come from the roof but all his
actions were predicated on this assumption. Rather than racing through
the building without back-up he should have organized an immediate
security perimeter around the building closing all possible exits.
Next he should have organized a methodical floor to floor search.
Pretty simple strategy. By running to the roof without back-up both
Baker and Truly could have been shot dead. Baker was motivated by
instinct rather than intellect. I'm sure he later realized all the
mistakes he made that day. That doesn't make him a liar.
What Baker should have said was, "You know what, I really don't
remember how I saw movement, I just reacted knowing someone was in
there." Instead it sounds like he is speculating on his own actions,
which is what got him in hot water with you condemning him as a liar.
Let me ask you a question, was Jean Hill a liar?
And one more time, can you explain to me the relevance of this issue?
Anthony Marsh
Quite often the police rush to beat a confession out a suspect which
lets the real criminal get away.
> I still don't understand the relevance of your complaint. The biggest
> mistake Baker made was his preconceived notion of where the shots came
> from. He was wrong. They did not come from the roof but all his
He did not say only roof. It could have been the top floor.
> actions were predicated on this assumption. Rather than racing through
> the building without back-up he should have organized an immediate
> security perimeter around the building closing all possible exits.
Not with a killer on the loose.
> Next he should have organized a methodical floor to floor search.
> Pretty simple strategy. By running to the roof without back-up both
> Baker and Truly could have been shot dead. Baker was motivated by
No, not against Baker. Remember the ending of the Texas Tower incident.
> instinct rather than intellect. I'm sure he later realized all the
> mistakes he made that day. That doesn't make him a liar.
>
> What Baker should have said was, "You know what, I really don't
> remember how I saw movement, I just reacted knowing someone was in
> there." Instead it sounds like he is speculating on his own actions,
> which is what got him in hot water with you condemning him as a liar.
>
Maybe he saw the movement of the door.
> Let me ask you a question, was Jean Hill a liar?
>
No, she was confused.
Anthony Marsh
Because it would reflect poorly on his superiors and might result in
disciplinary action against them.
claviger
tomnin,
Probe V6N1: The Sins of Robert Blakey Part II
Blakey and Gary Cornwell, Blakey's closest associate, knew that one of
the reasons
..... Blakey and Cornwell, fired two consecutive shots within 1.5 and
1.2 ...
http://www.ctka.net/pr1198-blakey.html