Oswald Could Not Possibly Have Gotten His Unemployment Check Before Sept. 25
John McAdams
I didn't know how thoroughly the FBI nailed this down, but they did.
CE 2938
CE 2939
CE 2940
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
yeuhd
checks at the post office. From that point onward, whether the checks
reached a certain destination at a certain time is speculation based on
statistics. Marina remembered the unemployment checks always arriving on
Tuesdays, a fact she probably took note of due to their hand-to-mouth
finances.
John McAdams
Actually, it was not speculation. All mail from Austin went by truck
to Houston, and was then put on a train for New Orleans. Several
postal employees found records indicating the arrival and departure
times on Sept. 23 and Sept. 24.
It just doesn't work out for the check to be in the box until (at the
soonest) 5:00 a.m. on the morning of the 25th.
I will look at Marina's testimony (it's what Jean Davison uses). But
given the FBI investigation, it has a huge burden of contrary evidence
to overcome.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Jean Davison
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:48ihg59a2koj01u4c...@4ax.com...
Marina's statement is at XXIII, 388, right side of page: "She said
OSWALD went every Tuesday to pick up his unemployment check."
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh23/html/WH_Vol23_0210b.htm
Also, the Warren Report claims that Oswald cashed his unemployment
check at Winn-Dixie on a Tuesday just a week before this, September 17.
(WR, 308, 10th line from the bottom):
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0166b.htm
It seems inconsistent that he could cash one check on Tuesday the
17th but couldn't have received a check from the same agency on Tuesday the
24th.
I'm also wondering why Oswald would've filled out his change of
address card to take effect on Sept. 24 if he didn't expect his check to
arrive until the 25th. If I remember correctly, he stayed behind in N.O.
after Marina left for Texas so that he could cash this unemployment check
to use on his trip to Mexico.
Of course, I could be wrong. There are arguments to be made on
both sides.
Jean
>
> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
<jjdavison...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I know. I have your book on my desk now. :-)
Unfortunately, there is no citation for this assertion in the WCR.
It's also the case that when the FBI tried to run down the cashing of
all his checks, the report didn't reflect that they could precisely
date anything.
CE 1161
> It seems inconsistent that he could cash one check on Tuesday the
>17th but couldn't have received a check from the same agency on Tuesday the
>24th.
>
True, but I can't find a source other than the very early Marina
interview for the Tuesday cashing.
> I'm also wondering why Oswald would've filled out his change of
>address card to take effect on Sept. 24 if he didn't expect his check to
>arrive until the 25th. If I remember correctly, he stayed behind in N.O.
>after Marina left for Texas so that he could cash this unemployment check
>to use on his trip to Mexico.
>
Maybe he filled it out on the 24th, knowing he was going to the
Lafayette Street station the next day, and would turn the change of
address in after he got the check.
> Of course, I could be wrong. There are arguments to be made on
>both sides.
Odio is really the Mother of All Oswald Sightings.
I'm pretty much convinced by CE 2938, CE 2939 and CE 2940 that the
check could not possibly have arrived until the morning of the 25th.
Of course, the problem there is that if we posit Oswald going by
private car, a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario works, especially if we
put Twiford on Tuesday night -- which you suggest in a footnote.
Of course, your "Oswald as infiltrator" theory explains Odio pretty
well, but I don't see how it would involve Twiford.
I'm inclined to write it off as just another "sighting." But I'll
admit you have a good point about the lack of evidence that Oswald
took that bus from New Orleans to Houston.
John Fiorentino
possible, if not probable that LHO actually left NO on the 24th. and not the
25.
The following is my reasoning and backup.
The change of address dated sept. 24.
WCR pg. 308 re: Sept. 17 Unemployment check (no citation in the report)
Marina Oswald Testimony re: LHO always getting his checks on a Tuesday.
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
San Antonio, Texas
April 1, 1964
RE : LEE HARVEY OSWALD
JACK BURCHAM, Texas Employment Commission, Austin,
Texas, on April 1, 1964, advised Special Agent H . T . BURK
Texas warrant dated September 23, 1963, payable to LEE
HARVEY OSWALD, Post Office Box 30061, New Orleans, Louisiana,
in payment of his unemployment claim, was mailed in a window
envelope direct to OSWALD at above post office box in New
Orleans, Louisiana, on September 23, 1963, via regular mail
which was picked up about 5 :15 p .m ., September 23, 1963, at
Texas Employment Commission Building, Austin, Texas, by
U . S . Post Office Department .
(Approx drive time by US Postal Truck from Austin to Houston - distance:
approx. 165 mi. 2 hrs. 45 mins.)
CE 1915--- FBI 302 of Eric Rogers....(excerpts)
"He recalls that OSWALD had packed household effects
and clothes in a station wagon one afternoon and that OSWALD's
wife and child departed with the woman who drove the station
wagon on the following morning . He said on the following
day he saw OSWALD running to catch a bus on the corner,
carrying two suitcases . That was the last time he saw him ."
(That would be Sept. 24, and not the 25th)
.John may wish to re-confirm the following:
"Actually, it was not speculation. All mail from Austin went by truck
to Houston, and was then put on a train for New Orleans. Several
postal employees found records indicating the arrival and departure
times on Sept. 23 and Sept. 24."
also re:
"It's also the case that when the FBI tried to run down the cashing of
all his checks, the report didn't reflect that they could precisely
date anything."
CE 1161
While that would seem true on the surface, and indeed no specific dates are
mentioned in CE 1161. The fact is they COULD (and probably did) confirm the
exact dates as the check information re: the Winn Dixie cashings indicated
Oswald at least once used his Marine Corp. ID to cash the check. If that ID
was on ANY check, so was the date.
Anyway, 1161 really doesn't indicate they couldn't precisely date
anything......it just indicates it's not in that exhibit.
So, it appears more likely than not, that Oswald actually left New Orleans
on Sept. 24, 1963.
John F.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:4b09f435....@news.supernews.com...
Jean Davison
True, but maybe there was a source that didn't make the
footnotes. The Mary Ferrell site lists a large number of hits for "Winn
Dixie."
I've just found out that there were two daily mail runs from
Austin to New Orleans, and that the earlier one *could* have arrived at
Oswald's mail box on Sept. 24. See the second paragraph of CE 3109:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0388a.htm
Has this earlier mail run been ruled out completely? I don't
know.
>
> It's also the case that when the FBI tried to run down the cashing of
> all his checks, the report didn't reflect that they could precisely
> date anything.
>
> CE 1161
>
>
>> It seems inconsistent that he could cash one check on Tuesday
>> the
>>17th but couldn't have received a check from the same agency on Tuesday
>>the
>>24th.
>>
>
> True, but I can't find a source other than the very early Marina
> interview for the Tuesday cashing.
Rankin quotes Marina saying that Oswald had told her he planned
to leave on the 24th, and Oswald's neighbors recalled that he did leave on
that date. Third para, left side here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0316b.htm
Of course witnesses are often wrong.
>
>
>> I'm also wondering why Oswald would've filled out his change of
>>address card to take effect on Sept. 24 if he didn't expect his check to
>>arrive until the 25th. If I remember correctly, he stayed behind in N.O.
>>after Marina left for Texas so that he could cash this unemployment check
>>to use on his trip to Mexico.
>>
>
> Maybe he filled it out on the 24th, knowing he was going to the
> Lafayette Street station the next day, and would turn the change of
> address in after he got the check.
>
>
>> Of course, I could be wrong. There are arguments to be made on
>>both sides.
>
> Odio is really the Mother of All Oswald Sightings.
Could be. Since I first wrote about Odio I've learned how
unreliable such identifications can be. Still, I think this sighting is
unusual in that unlike most of the others, it sounds like Oswald, and it
comes during an unusual gap in Oswald's known whereabouts. No one
reported seeing him in N.O. after the afternoon of the 24th, and he was
next seen on a bus early on the 26th.
>
> I'm pretty much convinced by CE 2938, CE 2939 and CE 2940 that the
> check could not possibly have arrived until the morning of the 25th.
>
> Of course, the problem there is that if we posit Oswald going by
> private car, a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario works, especially if we
> put Twiford on Tuesday night -- which you suggest in a footnote.
>
> Of course, your "Oswald as infiltrator" theory explains Odio pretty
> well, but I don't see how it would involve Twiford.
Yes, how Twiford fits in I do not know.
>
> I'm inclined to write it off as just another "sighting." But I'll
> admit you have a good point about the lack of evidence that Oswald
> took that bus from New Orleans to Houston.
Liebeler speculated that Oswald might've gotten to Dallas by
car and later got on the bus at Alice, Texas, which is about when the
record of passengers seeing him begins. It's total speculation, though.
It would be wonderful if someone would review all the
records now available and try to piece together everything known about the
checks, the bus schedules, distances, driving times, and so on. I no
longer have the time (or desire) to do it myself. The Mary Ferrell site
would be a good place to start, imo, if anyone is interested.
Jean
John McAdams
<jjdavison...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
>news:4b09f435....@news.supernews.com...
>> On 22 Nov 2009 09:32:54 -0500, "Jean Davison"
>> <jjdavison...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>> I know. I have your book on my desk now. :-)
>>
>> Unfortunately, there is no citation for this assertion in the WCR.
>
> True, but maybe there was a source that didn't make the
>footnotes. The Mary Ferrell site lists a large number of hits for "Winn
>Dixie."
>
Yes, I probably should go through all of them. The one document I
found showing the FBI's attempt to pin down the check cashing dates
doesn't show any success in precisely determining the dates.
> I've just found out that there were two daily mail runs from
>Austin to New Orleans, and that the earlier one *could* have arrived at
>Oswald's mail box on Sept. 24. See the second paragraph of CE 3109:
>
>http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0388a.htm
>
> Has this earlier mail run been ruled out completely? I don't
>know.
>
That's interesting.
CE 2131 (24H715) has the fellow at the Texas Employment Commission
flatly saying that the checks would have been picked up at 5:15.
Of course, bureaucrats have been wrong before. I would think that two
pickups at a mailroom would be rare, but I can't be sure.
>>
>> It's also the case that when the FBI tried to run down the cashing of
>> all his checks, the report didn't reflect that they could precisely
>> date anything.
>>
>> CE 1161
>>
>>
>>> It seems inconsistent that he could cash one check on Tuesday
>>> the
>>>17th but couldn't have received a check from the same agency on Tuesday
>>>the
>>>24th.
>>>
>>
>> True, but I can't find a source other than the very early Marina
>> interview for the Tuesday cashing.
>
> Rankin quotes Marina saying that Oswald had told her he planned
>to leave on the 24th, and Oswald's neighbors recalled that he did leave on
>that date. Third para, left side here:
>
>http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0316b.htm
>
> Of course witnesses are often wrong.
>
As are bureaucrats.
It's true he was not seen in NO after the afternoon of the 24th. The
WC had to posit that he was around -- either returning to his
apartment to sleep or in a cheap hotel.
>>
>>
>>> I'm also wondering why Oswald would've filled out his change of
>>>address card to take effect on Sept. 24 if he didn't expect his check to
>>>arrive until the 25th. If I remember correctly, he stayed behind in N.O.
>>>after Marina left for Texas so that he could cash this unemployment check
>>>to use on his trip to Mexico.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe he filled it out on the 24th, knowing he was going to the
>> Lafayette Street station the next day, and would turn the change of
>> address in after he got the check.
>>
>>
>>> Of course, I could be wrong. There are arguments to be made on
>>>both sides.
>>
>> Odio is really the Mother of All Oswald Sightings.
>
> Could be. Since I first wrote about Odio I've learned how
>unreliable such identifications can be. Still, I think this sighting is
>unusual in that unlike most of the others, it sounds like Oswald, and it
>comes during an unusual gap in Oswald's known whereabouts. No one
>reported seeing him in N.O. after the afternoon of the 24th, and he was
>next seen on a bus early on the 26th.
>
Actually, a lot of the others do "sound like Oswald" in some vague
way. Either involving guns, or anti-Kennedy talk, or being a Marine
and a shooter, or going back to Russia, or some such.
Even Alice, TX involved a slovenly guy with a wife who spoke a foreign
language and a babe in arms. Not the real Oswald family, but perhaps
the stereotype of the unkempt Beatnick who might shoot a president --
and the babe in arms corresponding to pictures of Marina *after* the
assassination.
It is true that this does sound a *lot* like the Bringuier thing.
>>
>> I'm pretty much convinced by CE 2938, CE 2939 and CE 2940 that the
>> check could not possibly have arrived until the morning of the 25th.
>>
>> Of course, the problem there is that if we posit Oswald going by
>> private car, a "Twiford plus Odio" scenario works, especially if we
>> put Twiford on Tuesday night -- which you suggest in a footnote.
>>
>> Of course, your "Oswald as infiltrator" theory explains Odio pretty
>> well, but I don't see how it would involve Twiford.
>
> Yes, how Twiford fits in I do not know.
*If* he picked up the check on the 25th, a scenario involving a
private car and both Twiford and Odio becomes difficult, since the
sort of people who would drive him to Houston to see Twiford aren't
the sort who would drive him to Dallas to see Odio.
>
>>
>> I'm inclined to write it off as just another "sighting." But I'll
>> admit you have a good point about the lack of evidence that Oswald
>> took that bus from New Orleans to Houston.
>
> Liebeler speculated that Oswald might've gotten to Dallas by
>car and later got on the bus at Alice, Texas, which is about when the
>record of passengers seeing him begins. It's total speculation, though.
>
> It would be wonderful if someone would review all the
>records now available and try to piece together everything known about the
>checks, the bus schedules, distances, driving times, and so on. I no
>longer have the time (or desire) to do it myself. The Mary Ferrell site
>would be a good place to start, imo, if anyone is interested.
>
It would be if the relevant material is there. I was surprised that
the FBI apparently did not have copies of Oswald's cancelled checks,
showing the date on which Winn-Dixie cashed them.
yeuhd
> *If* he picked up the check on the 25th, a scenario involving a
> private car and both Twiford and Odio becomes difficult, since the
> sort of people who would drive him to Houston to see Twiford aren't
> the sort who would drive him to Dallas to see Odio.
That's assuming Oswald told his companions about who Twiford was and why
Oswald wanted to meet him. Oswald could have said he wanted to get in a
touch with an old friend in Houston, made his telephone call to the
Twiford home out of earshot of his companions, hoping to meet with Twiford
at the bus station in Houston after he was dropped off.
John Fiorentino
FBI apparently did not have copies of Oswald's cancelled checks, showing
the date on which Winn-Dixie cashed them."
I think you're confusing the non-reporting of the dates, with not having
the info. They had it John. See my prior post.
John F.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:4b0ae6e9....@news.supernews.com...
jas
> On 22 Nov 2009 09:32:54 -0500, "Jean Davison"
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >"John McAdams" <john.mcad...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
> >news:48ihg59a2koj01u4c...@4ax.com...
> >> On 22 Nov 2009 00:15:12 -0500, yeuhd <needleswax...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>But note that the known facts end with the deposit of the unemployment
> >>>checks at the post office. From that point onward, whether the checks
> >>>reached a certain destination at a certain time is speculation based on
> >>>statistics. Marina remembered the unemployment checks always arriving on
> >>>Tuesdays, a fact she probably took note of due to their hand-to-mouth
> >>>finances.
>
> >> Actually, it was not speculation. All mail from Austin went by truck
> >> to Houston, and was then put on a train for New Orleans. Several
> >> postal employees found records indicating the arrival and departure
> >> times on Sept. 23 and Sept. 24.
>
> >> It just doesn't work out for the check to be in the box until (at the
> >> soonest) 5:00 a.m. on the morning of the 25th.
>
> >> I will look at Marina's testimony (it's what Jean Davison uses). But
> >> given the FBI investigation, it has a huge burden of contrary evidence
> >> to overcome.
>
> > Marina's statement is at XXIII, 388, right side of page: "She said
> >OSWALD went every Tuesday to pick up his unemployment check."
>
The lack of any bus schedule evidence of Oswald leaving New Orleans
doesn't really mean anything. He could have hitched a ride with someone
who could have been a felon wanted by the authorities and, after seeing
Oswald on TV after the assassination, wanted to keep his identity under
wraps and simply not come forward.
Heck, Oswald could have grabbed a ride in the back of someone's pickup
hauling horse apples for all we know, with the driver hardly even looking
at him, then spent the rest of the 25th in an alley in Houston somewhere,
sleeping or reading. After all, he was the type of person who wouldn't
have minded cheap and uninviting transportation and accommodations.
I feel it's best to conclude Oswald picked up his check early Wed. the
25th, cashed it that morning, and left New Orleans that afternoon. He
arrived in Houston that night, tried to get in touch with Twiford from the
area (saving himself the cost of a long-distance call, as was his MO),
then at 2:30 AM on the 26th boarded the bus to Laredo.
Simple common sense. All the over-convoluted conspiracy stuff of him
getting a ride with anti-Castro types and burning up the road to get to
Dallas that night, stop at Odio's, and then turn and burn up the road back
to Houston by 2:30 AM is too far-fetched.
yeuhd
> Simple common sense. All the over-convoluted conspiracy stuff of him
> getting a ride with anti-Castro types and burning up the road to get to
> Dallas that night, stop at Odio's, and then turn and burn up the road back
> to Houston by 2:30 AM is too far-fetched.
No one here has suggested that Oswald first went to Houston, then to
Dallas, then back to Houston.
I theorized that Oswald called the Twiford home from Dallas, to set up
a meeting later that night in Houston.
John Fiorentino
G 459698 9/23/63
Result of examination:
It was concluded that LEE HARVEY OSWALD, K4 and K5
in this case, wrote the signatures and endorsements on Qc68
through Qc70 except no conclusion was reached with respect
to the warrants in Qc68 dated 9/9/63, 8/26/63, 9/3/63,
9/13/63, 9/23/63, 10/1/63 and on the LA Forms 1B-2 in dated Qc69 dated
8/27/63 and 9/3/63 which are too indistinct for an
adequate handwriting comparison.
The FBI examined these items (and others) and issued the results on Dec. 2,
1963. The specimens were received Dec. 1, 1963 from FBI, San Antonio.
(Note******Qc68 consisted of eleven photocopies of Texas State Comptroller
warrants issued to Lee H. Oswald)
Warrant number G 459698 Dated 9/23/63 is the one in question here.
SO, YES, the FBI could in fact place SPECIFIC DATES to these items. This is
contrary to .John's interpretation of CE 1161, where admittedly no specific
dates were supplied.
HOWEVER, as noted above, and specifically as to the 9/23/63 Unemployment
warrant, the FBI was UNABLE to reach a firm conclusion re: the signatures
and endorsements as being those of Lee Harvey Oswald.
The above info. can be referenced in CE 2462.
John F.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:48ihg59a2koj01u4c...@4ax.com...
jas
I should have made that clearer. I was actually meaning Oswald traveling
straight to Dallas from New Orleans, not to Houston.
What's the mileage to Dallas from New Orleans, about 450 some miles? The
mileage to Houston from New Orleans, about 350? If we place Oswald leaving
NO at after 12 PM, he easily could have been in the Houston area before 10
PM for the Twiford call, and on the bus to Laredo by 2:30 AM.
This makes much more sense than alleging that he traveled the 450 miles to
Dallas, appeared at Odio's late the evening of the 25th, which is when he
would have been there after a trip that long -- late -- then turning
around and high-tailing it back to Houston, about a 230 mile trip, and
boarding the bus to Laredo by 2:30 am.
Unless Oswald was riding in a car going unusually fast, able to duck the
cops after speeding the entire way, there's little chance he would make it
to Dallas, then back to Houston by 2:30 am.
And to me the most nagging question regarding the CT scenario is: why
would Oswald be in such a hurry in the first place? No one was expecting
him to be on the 2:30 am Laredo bus, or be in Mexico City at any appointed
time. He was moving on his own schedule. He could have easily taken a
later bus to Laredo.
James K. Olmstead
some conflicts dealing with the signatures
of all the "payroll" and "unemployment" checks.......I don't have the files
loaded on this computer to point out
which ones at this time...but if there is some major interest on both sides
to address the conflicts and problems
I will load files and share all that I have on the checks.
Both the WC and HSCA looked into these checks and I honestly believe that
this specific Sept 24-25th check
is critical in rrelationship to Oswald's activities at this time.
I disregard Odio.....and Twillford was in New Orleans on the 24th (he
hurried home after talking to his wife).
I do not believe Oswald was in New Orleans on the 25th and I don't believe
Oswald was with those that
dropped by to see Odio.
I'm glad to see some open minds addressing this....so if anyone wants to
discuss this in depth I will find
the time.....(have to put down the fly rod anyway since the temp is
dropping). I'm not looking for
a fight....but I think you will all agree this is a critical issue.
jko
"Jean Davison" <jjdavison...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4b0adc13$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
yeuhd
You keep saying "back to Houston" although you say you don't mean he
was going back to Houston. Which is it?
yeuhd
> mileage to Houston from New Orleans, about 350? If we place Oswald leaving
> NO at after 12 PM, he easily could have been in the Houston area before 10
> PM for the Twiford call, and on the bus to Laredo by 2:30 AM.
>
> This makes much more sense than alleging that he traveled the 450 miles to
> Dallas, appeared at Odio's late the evening of the 25th, which is when he
> would have been there after a trip that long -- late -- then turning
> around and high-tailing it back to Houston, about a 230 mile trip, and
> boarding the bus to Laredo by 2:30 am.
Oswald's apartment in New Orleans to Sylvia Odio's apartment in Dallas
was 518 miles, about 8 hours 10 minutes driving.
Odio's apt. in Dallas to Houston was 244 miles, about 3 hours 53
minutes driving.
jas
What's the hang-up in understanding my post?
As is widely known, CTs allege Oswald traveled from NO to Dallas the
night of the 25th, was at Odio's door, then BACK to Houston to be on
the 2:30 am bus to Laredo.
The WC, and LNs like myself, maintain that he traveled straight to
Houston from NO, no Dallas interlude.
Do you want me to change "back to Houston" to "traveled to Houston"?
Ok.
yeuhd
Yes, because the adverb "back" means "to, toward, or in a place from
which a person or thing came". If Oswald didn't come from Houston, he
couldn't be going "back" to Houston.
John Fiorentino
I doubt there will be any "fight" at least not on my end.
Frankly, I was dismayed by my own lack of investigative prowess, as I
(apparently) let some of these dates go flying over my head. So,
unfortunately, and I mean that sincerely, I suppose I will have to
continue looking into Oz's activities re: NO, Dallas and Mexico City.
After looking at much of this I don't believe Oswald was in NO on the 25th
either. I believe he left on Sept. 24, which admittedly opens up a
potential can of worms.
The signature discrepancies on the warrants combined with the "3546" form
of Oct. 11, 63 (at least on surface) paint an odd picture indeed.
I also agree, I doubt Oz was ever at Odio's.
I also have much more info. on this on another computer of mine, which I
mentioned previously to .John.
So, bring it on James, and let's see what you have.
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b0c6098$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
jas
I'll watch my grammar next time.
I think what I was referring to in the CT scenario when I said "back,"
probably subconsciously, was that Houston's location, on a trip from New
Orleans to Laredo and Mexico City is "back" from the more northern Dallas
location, making a trip to Dallas effectively out of the way in a route
beginning from the southern city of New Orleans where we know Oswald
started out from. In other words, Houston's location is latitudinally more
in line with New Orleans, so given the narrow time line, a side-trip to
Dallas was unlikely.
James K. Olmstead
tying materials tonight...tied enough for now and looking forward to a open
discussion......got interested and loaded the files...some brief comments
and then some details of interest towards the end.
I don't have anything solid on where Lee would have
stayed after the 24th. We know he used the YMCA
in Dallas after Mexico, when he could have stayed
with the Paines....no reason not to. I'm sure the Y
in NO was checked as were the "cheaper hotels".
Nobody in NO ever came forward to putting him up
for the night. In the past my only suspect was one of his cousins,
who did not live with his aunt and uncle...but I don't
have anything beyond a gut feeling about his cousin
who tried to teach Lee to drive...not sure even if he
had his own place or a friend, who also knew Lee and
allowed Lee to "hang out" there...with or without his
cousin being there. The investigation does not show
"alibi's" for relatives for the 24th....since no crime was
committed. So I can't really add anything to where
he would have stayed the night on the 24th in New Orleans.
I'm going on the premise that since it can't be established
that he actually stayed in New Orleans, it's open to consideration
that he had left shortly after Ruth and Marina by means
other then riding with them at least part of the way.
I have been working on a lead concerning another
assassination plot that has solid New Orleans connections
since April 63 that ties into Lee's activities, but I'm
just starting the detailed investigation into that and it
might tie into the check cashing, transportation, signature
issues....as well as the libaray book. I will be trying to interview
associates during Jan-Mar. Anything mentioned now would
be speculation on my part.
Here are some notes and exhibit numbers
There are only 6 mail related exhibits for Sept:
Dobbs Ex 10 1 Sept........SWP
Johnson Ex 6 1 Sept........CPUSA
Hunley Ex 3 3 Sept.......Texas Unemployment
Johnson Ex 4-A 19 Sept..CPUSA
CE 75 29 Sept..Khontuleva letter to Marina
So it seems Lee was note corresponding after the 19th.
Here is a partial list of Exhibits and Reports dealing with some of these
issues:
CE 1157 (11 checks)
CE 2476
CE 3105
CE 3109
Cadigan Ex 13
14
22
Creel Ex 5
HSCA Record Number 179-30002-10262 dated 08/17/1977 dealing with Oswald's
signatures and
handwriting is "Postpone in Full"
PO Reports
CE 1152
CE 1158
CE 1390
CE 1799
CE 2937
CE 2938
CE 2940
CE 3190
Handwriting...
CE 2342
CE 2376
***KEY****Holmes 3-A.......conflict indicated in Holmes testimony on form
3575
QUOTE ON
Mr. Liebeler. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting.
Mr. Holmes. That's is my opinion, too.
Mr. Liebeler. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office
filled this form out?
Mr. Holmes. They could have done it over a telephone instruction,
long-distance telephone call.
QUOTE OFF
The change of address card form 3575.....could have been filled out by
anyone *except* Oswald since it is
not his handwriting. I would like to read opinions on this issue....I
couldn't find a good copy of
the form 3575.....to many files it could be in...will look tommorrow.
Let's establish first if Oswald or another filled out this card since it's a
critical element and everyone
is looking at the same COA form 3575 before we go much further.
jko
"John Fiorentino" <johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b0db8bf$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
> James:
>
> Thanks. The PO form in question is "3546" not 3575 as you mention. I've
> attached pdf of it to this post. This form was filled out in NO on Oct.
> 11,
> 63. Oswald of course was in Dallas on the 11th.
>
> It's not in Oswald's handwriting, as stated by Liebeler and agreed to by
> Holmes.
> ======================================================
John: Thanks for the correct exhibit and form that you are concerned with.
I was going by the testimony break down in my files:
>Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; you have handed me a postcard, Post Office Department
>Form 3546, Notice to Change Forwarding Order.
Mr. HOLMES. That is different from our 3575 in that this is simply a
forwarding order. This is to change a forwarding order. To interpret it,
Lee Oswald, on October 11, 1963, in New Orleans, gave his box 2915 in
Dallas as the last address. He had given a forwarding order on this box to
this box 30061 in New Orleans on May 14, 1963. Now then, he is again
forwarding from this box. Not again, but it is a second forwarding.
>We know for a faact Lee was NOT in NO on the 11th.
The next question mentions the form "3546" at the end I assumed they were
still dealing with the form "3575":
>Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that instructions had been given to
>forward
from box 2915 here in Dallas?
Mr. HOLMES. Direct without going through----
Mr. LIEBELER. This would indicate that all together, he had first issued
instructions that mail should be forwarded from box 2915 in Dallas to box
30061 in New Orleans, and this would now indicate that mail was to be
forwarded to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.,-and that is dated
October 11, 1963. Now, there are several postmarks appearing on this form.
There is one Dallas postmark of October 16 on both sides, and there is
also a postmark in New Orleans, which is difficult to read, but it is
sometime in October. Now you suggested perhaps October 11, 1963. What do
you interpret happened with regard to this notice, Post Office Department
Form 3546? Can you tell from looking at it where, in the ordinary course
of events, he would have first prepared this form?
<
Now your image of form 3546 adds prior overlooked or forgotton issues.
1. Holmes indicates that on Friday 22 Nov ALL of the Dallas postal
paperwork was sent to either a specially combined or two seperate teams
for handwriting valadation. He mentions the SS and FBI, but is not clear
on several points.
a. Was this form 3546 sent with all the others?
b. Was the other form 3575 sent as well?
c. Was the exam of postal documents done in Dallas or D.C.?
d. Who handled this Fri night exam (in charge)
e. If the exam was to validate who filled out the rifle purchase MO why
wasn't the conflict noted. This makes the entire Fri exam process
"exclupatory"...IF this document was included and there is no grounds for
it to be excluded.
f. Where are the exhibit(s) or reports concerning the details of this
exam.
g. Where and when did they assemble the needed examplars of Oswald's
writings/signatures
for the exam.
As a side note there is the additional issue of noexamplars of Oswald
writing out and or printing A. J. Hidell needed for the validation of the
Postal Money Order/Rifle Purchase/delivery issues. They had Marina write
out A. J. Hidell 7 times for samples of her writing the name, but they did
not at anytime Friday afternoon or evening write out Lee Harvey Oswald or
A. J. Hidell.
>
> As far as Oz needing someone to put him up for the night of the 24th. That
> really wouldn't have necessarily been needed depending on where the bus
> was
> going that Oswald's neighbor witnessed him running to catch carrying 2
> suitcases. (CE 1915--- FBI 302 of Eric Rogers)
>
> He could have slept on the bus, or in a bus station for that matter.
Agreed sleeping is not any major issue.....but lugging around two
suitcases aimlessly is......unless the bus he caught took him directly to
his transportation departure point.
>
> Also re: the 24th, Marina stated that Lee said an Unemployment check
> would
> be forwarded to the Paine's. Thus, the change of address dated Sept. 24,
> which IS in his handwriting.
This clearly indicates that there was no need to stay in NO for the check,
if he wasn't going to keep it for the trip.
>
> The Commission also had some other concerns with this scenario as outlined
> below:
>
> "We are also concerned about the possibility that Oswald
> may have left New Orleans on September 24, 1963 instead of
> September 25, 1963 as has been previously thought.
As far as I can remember about the bus scheduling/ticket purchases, I
believe that they did look at the 24th as well as the 25th and came up
with no solid evidence of being on any bus.
In that
> connection Marina Oswald has recently advised us that her husband
> told her he intended to leave New Orleans the very next day
> following her departure on September 23, 1963 She also indicated
> that he told her an unemployment check would be forwarded to
> Mrs. Ruth Paine's address in Irving from his post office box in
> New Orleans . We also have testimony that Oswald left his apartment
> on the evening of September 24, 1963 carrying two suitcases. It
> also seems improbable to us that Oswald would have gone all the
> way back to the Wynn-Dixie store at 4303 Magazine Street to cash
> the unemployment check which he supposedly picked up at the Lafayette
> branch of the post office when he could have cashed it at Martin's
> Restaurant, where he had previously cashed many of his Reily checks
> and one unemployment check. That is particularly true if he received
> the check on September 25, 1963, as previously thought, and had
> left his apartment with his suitcases the evening before . (CE 3045)
There were any number of places that checks could be cashed where the
person cashing it is known to be sloppy/casual or bribed to cash anything
handed to them that looks offical.
>
> Then we have the handwriting problem on the check. The FBI was unable to
> match it to Oz.
More on this later, since it is a very critcal issue that I have to
assemble facts on to share.
It's also noteworthy that the forwarding order from his NO
> PO Box to the Paine's wouldn't have taken effect until Sept 26, when it
> was
> received at Lafayette Station.
>
> Theoretically, someone else could have picked that check up and cashed it.
> I'm not saying that happened, just that it appears to be a possibility.
It's a major consideration IMHO based on the signature and 9 other
possible forgeries of his signature.
>
> So, if I wanted to piece together a scenario that fits. -- Oz fills out a
> forwarding order to the Paine's on the 24th in NO.
It could have been earlier the 24th because now all of the related forms
are established as being "question documents".
He then leaves by bus
> later in the day for points unknown. Someone picks up his mail at PO box
> 30061 on the 25th. The mail includes his UI check because the forwarding
> order isn't received in Lafayette Station until the following day, (26th).
> The check is then cashed at the Winn Dixie on the 25th.
>
> Now I sound like a CT'r??????????
No.... just open minded and concerned with addressing the facts under
consideration.
>
> I tell ya, it does make you scratch your head.
I had to stop alot of my research to save my thining scalp.
>
> I'm also extremely intrigued by some of the other info. I've recently
> reviewed, that again, must have gone over my head years ago. More on that
> later.....
There is alot to cover....I spent several hours today reviewing files and
have marked down at least 50 additional questions/points to address.
I need a few games of online poker to clear my head abit.
jko
John Fiorentino
HSCA Record Number 179-30002-10262 dated 08/17/1977 was never released
through the ARRB? I can't find it. This is STILL sealed?
Also looking for a GOOD copy of WCD 227, I have a good copy of CE 2119.
BTW, remember the guy "Winfred C. Barnes" who crossed the border on the
same date and time as Oswald? (copy of his tourist card info. is contained
in CE 2119 along with the others)
The FBI indicated they couldn't locate Mr. Barnes (in spite of all the info.
on the tourist card)
How is it then, that I have just located him 46 years later!!!!????? I NOW
know his wife's maiden name, the names of his children, and some other info.
which I don't want to divulge at this time. (as I haven't completed my
follow-through)
I also think, (and admittedly this sounds a little wacky) PERHAPS the FBI
wasn't "interested" in speaking with Barnes. Especially in light of some of
the subsequent info. I have uncovered about him.
VERY ODD INDEED!!!! And that's coming from a confirmed LN.......more later
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b0f...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John McAdams
<johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote:
I disagree, but the odd thing is that one would *think* that any
cancelled check would have some notation as to when it was cashed by
Winn-Dixie, and I can't find a copy of the actual check.
John McAdams
Possible, but if he was engaged in the Very Important Task of setting
himself up as the assassin (or even "infiltrating" the anti-Castro
forces) it's hard to see why he would have fooled with Twiford.
John Fiorentino
I love ya, but it's all gone over your head (apparently) as it admittedly
went over mine for years. To the best of my knowledge (copies of the
checks) are STILL sealed.
I think the check was cashed at Winn-Dixie on the 25th, but the question
might be....by whom?
The FBI admits, it can't match the writing or endorsements on that warrant
to LHO.
I don't think OZ was in NO on the 25th. In fact there is more evidence
that he wasn't, than there is that he was. I've straightened out, (I
believe) the issue of the WCR *mistake* pg. 308, re: Sept. 17, 63. And,
most probably Marina's misconceptions about him getting his checks on
Tuesdays.
I also NOW agree that warrant check probably wasn't available in PO Box
30016 until the 25th. But that is really not the issue.
What you may have considered at one time to be a "Red Herring" ie., the
"3546" form just may be an integral part of this entire puzzle.
There's MUCH more to this .John.
John F.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:4b141fe9....@news.supernews.com...
James K. Olmstead
question as well as others included in WCE 1157....I would really like to
see them.
4 of the 11 cks seem to be unsigned in WCE 1157. 1 of these 4 does have
address endoresement.
ck # G459693 not signed
ck # G246347 address but no signature
ck # G353037 not signed
ck # G421381 not signed
These Texas Unemployment checks were NOT part of the HSCA handwriting
investigation.
As to information concerning Oswald's actions on the 24th, there is one
record that deals with his activities associated with this check issue.
This information can be found in WCE 2121.
Oswald was required to fill out the yellow "form 13-2" to receive his
check for the week ending Sept 27th.
Mr. Christen's office was at 630 Camp St. and he states in WCE 2121 that
Oswald was in his office to fill out that "form 13-2" on the 24th.
In my past research I never followed through with any research concerning
this "form 13-2" dealing with Oswald's trip to Mexico and I can't find it
within my files concerning Oswald's signatures. However I do believe I
have seen related exhibits concerning his claim for unemployment
paperwork......I will continue to look to see if this specific form is
included.
The known exhibits are the Hunley Exhibits....(7 exhibits).
I have Ex's 2,3,5,7 but do not have 1,4 and 6 unless they are lost in the
signature files.
****John this would be a good student project to look for the form 13-2
buried in related exhibits.
If the yellow "form 13-2" is signed by Oswald ( which it should be) it is
possible that there is a "time" recorded of the visit. This time stamp
would establish a solid documented "alibi" for where Oswald was at some
time during 24 September, 1963.
My file notes for the trip to Mexico dealing with leaving New Orleans on
this show:
"According to John Russell Rachal, affidavit signed 22 June, 1964.
Oswald's visits were recorded on Form 1-B-2."
There are two exhibits relating to the above..Rachal Exhibits Nos. 2 and
3.
In my signature files I have:
" The signaturres appearing on the attached Interstate Claims, labelled as
Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibits Nos. 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9, and the
Interstate Request for Recommendation of Monetary Deteermination,
Louisiana Department of Labor Exhibit Nos. 3 and 6 are my signatures.
Signed this 16th day of June 1964 Bobb W. Hunley"
These exhibits were re-labeled Hunley Exhibits Nos 1-7.
If the Form 13-2 does not have a time indicated the Form 1-B-2 should have.
Since Oswald would be at 630 Camp St at some time on the 24th, there is
some concern here that it is too close to 544 Camp St for comfort.
The research that I'm conducting in Las Vegas during Jan-Mar of next year
concerns a man associated with Cuban gambling operations, which include
the Hotel National operations, who went to New Orleans in April of 1963
around the same time as Oswald. He is a suspect in a Castro/Jagen
assassination plot. Oswald mentions the Jagen government in his radio
debate.
One of the concerns that I have is that this individual picked up Oswald
at the restrauant across the street from 544 Camp St. on the 24th and
drove him to Larado, on his way back to Las Vegas. This man is associated
with individuals known to Jack Ruby.
I can't discuss details of this research at this time.
jko
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:4b141fe9....@news.supernews.com...
James K. Olmstead
> James:
>
> HSCA Record Number 179-30002-10262 dated 08/17/1977 was never released
> through the ARRB? I can't find it. This is STILL sealed?
John: It's been over two years since I looked into the records dealing
with Oswalds writings, at that time I was unable to finish research due to
medical issues that I'm still over coming. As far as I know it's still
postponed in full, but it might have changed since then.
>
> Also looking for a GOOD copy of WCD 227, I have a good copy of CE 2119.
>
> BTW, remember the guy "Winfred C. Barnes" who crossed the border on the
> same date and time as Oswald? (copy of his tourist card info. is
> contained in CE 2119 along with the others)
The name "escapes me" at this time since I haven't looked at 2119 in
awhile. However I'm very much interested in your work on this. I only have
"plane" marked beside his name on CE 2119.
>
> The FBI indicated they couldn't locate Mr. Barnes (in spite of all the
> info. on the tourist card)
>
> How is it then, that I have just located him 46 years later!!!!????? I NOW
> know his wife's maiden name, the names of his children, and some other
> info. which I don't want to divulge at this time. (as I haven't completed
> my follow-through)
>
> I also think, (and admittedly this sounds a little wacky) PERHAPS the FBI
> wasn't "interested" in speaking with Barnes. Especially in light of some
> of the subsequent info. I have uncovered about him.
>
> VERY ODD INDEED!!!! And that's coming from a confirmed LN.......more later
Well John I never held your LN leanings against you....HOWEVER I don't
know if I could handle the competition if you became a bona-fide CT.
If you are interested and want to email me before Dec 26th (I leave for
Las Vegas) I would like to discuss two of the individuals I'm looking into
over the next four months. This way if you switch over to the CT camp I'll
be able to better handle the competition. You can maintain the LN view of
the material I'm working on as a "counter balance" to your CT leanings.
To help you I would take on the LN position in your area of interest.
jko
John Fiorentino
I'd be happy to discuss anything you wish. I've taken to doing much of my
research by phone, as it is simply faster, and the involved parties can
"give and take" unencumbered by this medium we are in now.
But please, don't place me in any CT camp.
I'm an investigator, admittedly reviewing material I first looked at years
ago, and again admittedly confounded (and a bit dismayed) at my own lack
of attention to detail.
I always thought the OZ/Mexico, yada yada thing was the weakest part of
the official investigation, and perhaps my judgment was a bit clouded by
the overwhelming physical evidence in the case.
I openly admit now, I didn't pay as much attention to some of this as I
perhaps should have.
I need to proceed with proper investigative techniques and see where all
of this leads. I will avoid speculating, and thus have no "conspiracy
theories" to impart.
The official investigation might found to be less than adequate, without
any conspiratorial implications per se.
In any event, if you give me a private e-mail, I'll be happy to contact
you off the record if you wish. Or, I can give you my phone #, or you can
give me yours, and I will be happy to call.
BTW - That goes for any other interested parties reading this.
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b14...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John Fiorentino
Thanks for all of that. I'm in the process now of wading through much of
this. Frankly, not looking forward to it either.
I believe I remember something about the 24th regarding his UI, and that
would make sense, as he certified on 17/Sept also.
Frankly, I think he left NO in late afternoon/early eve by bus on the 24th.
We have a witness, partial corroboration from the bus driver, Oz's
statements to Marina, etc. to back that up.
More.......coming
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b143c52$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
Stugrad98
forum in years. In terms of everyone being willing to keep an open mind
on these issues. I happen to think the weight of the evidence favors that
someone visited Odio's who was represented in way that certainly made one
think it was Oswald-- comes from New Orleans, closely resembles him in
looks, phone call IDs him as "Leon" and he is associating with exiles (per
the phone call) in much the same way he associated with Bringuier. I lean
toward it being Oswald. If it wasn't, it certainly appears, especially in
light of the phone call, that it was meant for Odio and possibly others to
think it was Oswald.
While I welcome thoughts/criticisms of that, I am much more interested in
what John F/James are developing...
(1) Please clarify the issue with this Oct 11 controversy if possible; as
in the background of the controversy.
(2) Any further word on Barnes would be interesting. He has been of
interest to researchers for a while. FBI reports indicate that he had
information about Oswald associates at the border crossing. It would be
interesting to know if that report was correct and if it fully represents
what he says.
-Stu
tomnln
http://whokilledjfk.net/invitation.htm
"John Fiorentino" <johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b147476$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
insure he gets to sign the required form...any later and there maybe too
many in line ahead of him. Most go as early as possible because of the
long lines. 1963 was a bad year for employment in many cities such as New
Orleans.
I know many believe that Lee left New Orleans via bus. I don't rule out a
ride by auto with a second party heading west. I don't doubt that Lee
left the area of his Magizine St. via bus...but the FBI could just not put
him in any bus seat heading out of New Orleans.
jko
"John Fiorentino" <johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b1476ee$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
On the Oct 11 issue, it basically boils down to some off the record
activities of the Post Office in Dallas and New Orleans. Holmes (FBI
informant T-7) in my opinion, based on the offical reports, was tracking
Oswald from the time he opened the PO Box in Dallas "after" Lee's return
from Mexico. Holmes is covering up key details because any "phone call"
authorization from Dallas concerning the New Orleans PO box and forwarding
any mail had to come from "his office". Holmes indicates that the
transaction was or could have been conducted via "phone". But that is not
according to Postal Regulations. Holmes was in charge of any and all
postal investigation of any PO Box holder in Dallas....that was his
primary FBI informant responsiblity. He would have sent Oswald's name to
the FBI when Lee opened the Dallas P.O. Box.
Minutes after the arrest of Oswald (maybe an hour) Holmes opened Lee's PO
Box. There is no clear record of when he did open the box...and the two
books indicated to be in the box maybe missing from the evidence
inventory. I say maybe because I really have never looked for them in the
evidence inventory, they never seemed to be a major issue that needed
looking for. The only place I've seen the two books mentioned is on our
friend Ken R's website.
Lee was in Dallas on Oct 11 and could not have filled out the COA (change
of address) card. A New Orleans postal offical had to.....against
regulations.
As to the Odio incident....I do not believe it was Oswald, but if the
incident did in fact accure....Oswald was to be "suspected" of being
there, even if he wasn't.
The work that I'm doing at this time does relate to people that can be
associated with those that did visit Odio. If I had a 1963 photo of my
main suspect I could tell if he could pass for Oswald, it would be no
problem for him to drop Lee off in Larado and then head back to Houston,
to hang out at bus station and then go to Odio's.
I do not have a 1963 photo of this man but hope to obtain one in January.
jko
"Stugrad98" <wext...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0c48c8a6-b496-42ea...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
John Fiorentino
I think most regular posters/lurkers here know that you and I have been at
odds on many things. I won't rehash any of that now as I believe most are
aware of most of it.
My only interest is getting at the truth, and the truth of course is for the
benefit of all - even adversaries.
I must say I did appreciate your comment here: "I have to say this is
about the most productive thread I have seen on this forum in years."
In any event to try and answer your concerns:
Re: 11/Oct - A postal form "3546" was filled out in NO on instant date. The
form directed that mail from PO Box 2915 in Dallas be forwarded to Ruth
Paine's.
Box 2915 in Dallas was closed on 14/May 63. The form was not in Oswald's
handwriting, and of course Oswald was in Dallas on 11/Oct. and not in NO.
Liebeler and Postal Inspector Holmes had an exchange about this, relevant
portion here:
Mr. LIEBELER. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence that
Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it?
Mr. HOLMES. No; that is right.
Mr. LIEBELER. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting.
Mr. HOLMES. That is my opinion, too.
Re: Barnes - This I'm still looking into. The relevant things I can impart
so far is the FBI claimed they couldn't locate Barnes, even with all of the
info. obtained from his tourist card. He crossed the border at the same time
as alleged to Oswald.
I have located Barnes (I won't go into details now) I find the FBI assertion
incredulous.
However, based on some of the information I've uncovered, it seems
*possible* the FBI may not in fact have been able to locate him at the time.
Now if I can demonstrate why - then I think we open up the proverbial "can
of worms."
If I can't explain why - then it falls back on the FBI mush-mouth about not
being able to locate him. Also, in my opinion another "can of worms."
So, this is a work in progress.
Also FYI for everyone here. I sent this to .John as part of an e-mail
discussing some of these things. These are just excerpts from that
communication, but offer some insight into my current position on some
related issues:
1. I NEVER believed Oswald left NO on the 25th. I think he left on the 24th.
2. I NEVER believed Oswald visited Odio
3. I NEVER believed Dannelly was a "hoaxer" as Hoover opined.
4. I ALWAYS believed the evidence re: Oswald/Mexico/Sept etc. was lacking
much substance.
5. I ALWAYS believed that the inquiry by J. D. Vinson of the Isaac Detective
Agency smelled a little fishy. NO FBI follow-up that I have yet found.
6. I ALWAYS believed that Hoover was less than concerned with getting ALL of
the facts.
John F.
"Stugrad98" <wext...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0c48c8a6-b496-42ea...@o9g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...
John Fiorentino
witness got it wrong, and he also mentioned leaving to Marina. Though
obviously, I wouldn't count on Oswald for much in the way of the truth.
Theoretically, though you are correct that doesn't necessarily eliminate
your scenario.
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b14...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
timstter
> John: Lee has to be at 630 Camp St before 3 pm (estimate on my part) to
> insure he gets to sign the required form...any later and there maybe too
> many in line ahead of him. Most go as early as possible because of the
> long lines. 1963 was a bad year for employment in many cities such as New
> Orleans.
>
> I know many believe that Lee left New Orleans via bus. I don't rule out a
> ride by auto with a second party heading west. I don't doubt that Lee
> left the area of his Magizine St. via bus...but the FBI could just not put
> him in any bus seat heading out of New Orleans.
>
> jko
>
>
> news:4b1476ee$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
>
> > James:
>
> > Thanks for all of that. I'm in the process now of wading through much of
> > this. Frankly, not looking forward to it either.
>
> > I believe I remember something about the 24th regarding his UI, and that
> > would make sense, as he certified on 17/Sept also.
>
> > Frankly, I think he left NO in late afternoon/early eve by bus on the
> > 24th. We have a witness, partial corroboration from the bus driver, Oz's
> > statements to Marina, etc. to back that up.
>
> > More.......coming
>
> > John F.
>
> >>news:4b141fe9....@news.supernews.com...
> >>> On 23 Nov 2009 10:11:37 -0500, "John Fiorentino"
Hi James,
This seems to be the last, by date order, of the Hunley Exhibits:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0112b.htm
All these exhibits are date stamped on the back. Looks like Oswald
spent a lot of time on Camp Street!
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup(s) Commentator*
James K. Olmstead
Based on this form 1-B-2, being filled out as seen by Hunley Ex 2, for 3
September, 1963 We could pinpoint Oswald's last known location on the 24th
to the hour.
The circular standard time stamp has both the date and time of processing.
Now the question is and this is a major consideration for "both sides of
the debate"....
Where is the form for the 24th?
jko
"timstter" <tims...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:39e3cb52-8a52-455a...@k17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
> John and John: If anyone comes up with a good copy of the check in
> question as well as others included in WCE 1157....I would really like to
> see them.
>
> 4 of the 11 cks seem to be unsigned in WCE 1157. 1 of these 4 does have
> address endoresement.
>
> ck # G459693 not signed
> ck # G246347 address but no signature
> ck # G353037 not signed
> ck # G421381 not signed
>
I know nothing about Texas unemployment in 1963 because I never lived in
Texas and was never unemployed in 1963. So what I am wondering is if
someone could cash an unemployment check without signing it?
> These Texas Unemployment checks were NOT part of the HSCA handwriting
> investigation.
>
> As to information concerning Oswald's actions on the 24th, there is one
> record that deals with his activities associated with this check issue.
> This information can be found in WCE 2121.
>
> Oswald was required to fill out the yellow "form 13-2" to receive his
> check for the week ending Sept 27th.
>
Here I am confused. I thought that an applicant would be certifying for
the previous complete week, not anticipating for the current week.
Anthony Marsh
> .John:
>
> I love ya, but it's all gone over your head (apparently) as it
> admittedly went over mine for years. To the best of my knowledge (copies
> of the checks) are STILL sealed.
>
> I think the check was cashed at Winn-Dixie on the 25th, but the question
> might be....by whom?
>
Hey, you have the makings of a great wacky theory there. Maybe the checks
were signed by the (wait for the scary music) Oswald's double!
> The FBI admits, it can't match the writing or endorsements on that
> warrant to LHO.
>
> I don't think OZ was in NO on the 25th. In fact there is more evidence
> that he wasn't, than there is that he was. I've straightened out, (I
> believe) the issue of the WCR *mistake* pg. 308, re: Sept. 17, 63. And,
> most probably Marina's misconceptions about him getting his checks on
> Tuesdays.
>
Why does it matter exactly where Oswald was on the 25th?
John Fiorentino
Mr. Barnes is so far proving to be a *very interesting* fellow. I should
have more soon.
John F.
"John Fiorentino" <johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b1521ee$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
yeuhd
wrote:
> All:
>
> Mr. Barnes is so far proving to be a *very interesting* fellow. I should
> have more soon.
Social Security Death Index:
Name: Winfred Barnes
SSN: 461-07-1717
ZIP code of last residence: 32960 (Vero Beach, Indian River County,
Florida)
Born: 1 May 1912
Died: Sep 1980
State (Year) SSN issued: Texas (1936–1950)
1920 U.S. Census:
Name: Winfred Barnes
Home in 1920: Pearsall, Frio County, Texas
Age: 7 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1913
Birthplace: Texas
Relation to Head of House: Son
Father's Name: Shaw A
Father's Birth Place: Texas
Mother's Name: Velma
Mother's Birth Place: Texas
Marital Status: Single
Race: White
Sex: Male
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Image: 428
U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938–1946:
Name: Winfred C Barnes
Birth Year: 1912
Race: White, citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: Texas
State of Residence: Texas
County or City: Bexar
Enlistment Date: 11 Mar 1942
Enlistment State: Texas
Enlistment City: Fort Sam Houston
Grade: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other
emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President
or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life
Education: 2 years of college
Civil Occupation: Accountants and auditors
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 71
Weight: 156
Nevada divorce index, 1968–2005:
Name: Winfred Clark Barnes
Record Type: Defendant
Spouse's name: Lois E Barnes
Divorce Date: 21 May 1975
County: Clark
Control Certificate Number: 35600
Court Code: 8
Florida death index, 1877–1998:
Name: Winfred Clark Barnes
Death Date: 19 Sep 1980
County of Death: Indian River
State of Death: Florida
Age at Death: 68
Race: White
Birth Date: 1 May 1912
greg
wrote:
Re: Barnes - This I'm still looking into. The relevant things I can
impart
so far is the FBI claimed they couldn't locate Barnes, even with all
of the
info. obtained from his tourist card. He crossed the border at the
same time
as alleged to Oswald.
Barnes was not the only one who crossed the border at the same time
and place as Oswald is alleged to have done who the FBI could not
locate:
http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/jfk-f1/border-crossing-was-it-oswald-t5.htm
On the issue of when Oswald left New Orleans, here are what his
neighbours said:
Mr & Mrs Alexander Eanes, III
Secret Service interview 1/14/64. Stated saw Marina leave in two tone
blue s/w about mid-day. Said LHO stayed in his apartment for several
days after Marina left and thought he must have left at night as they
did not see him go. Said LHO had very few visitors, but did recall
WDSU radio people there. (note: RP's s/w was a '55 Chevy, green and in
need of paint according to her testimony. DPD memo dated Dec 23, '63
states it was "two-tone green")
Eric Rogers:
FBI interview 11/27/63 said Marina left in Station Wagon on 9/23, but
does not say whether he personally witnessed this. Did see Oswald
leave next day to catch bus carrying two bags. Mentions only one
visitor - a Latino who came prior to LHO Aug arrest(1). Secret Service
interview 1/14/64 said he saw Marina leave in lt brown Ford or Chev s/
w with a male and female. Male described as in 40s, short and stocky.
Confirms saw LHO leave next day. Stated LHO had several visitors at
various intervals - one American - rest Latinos . During testimony
taken 7/21/64 said no visitors except one latino and some radio
people. In answer to question on ever seeing LHO with rifle, stated
LHO received a "big package" during summer. Said LHO was wearing
goggles when packing s/w and that he did NOT see s/w leave. Said
wife's opinion was it left early before the Roger's were out of bed.
Said color of s/w was "kind of gray". Incredibly, not asked what make.
Does not mention man in s/w - but then was not asked. Only asked to
confirm a female.(3) See also Alexander P Eanes III entry. (note:
RP's s/w was a '55 Chevy, green and in need of paint according to her
testimony. DPD memo dated Dec 23, '63 states it was "two-tone green")
Did Oswald leave and someone else stay in the apartment for a couple
of days?
John Fiorentino
John F.
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1700ebd1-b884-4f15...@e27g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 2, 10:59 pm, "John Fiorentino" <johnfiorent...@optonline.net>
wrote:
> All:
>
> Mr. Barnes is so far proving to be a *very interesting* fellow. I should
> have more soon.
Social Security Death Index:
Name: Winfred Barnes
SSN: 461-07-1717
ZIP code of last residence: 32960 (Vero Beach, Indian River County,
Florida)
Born: 1 May 1912
Died: Sep 1980
State (Year) SSN issued: Texas (1936?1950)
1920 U.S. Census:
Name: Winfred Barnes
Home in 1920: Pearsall, Frio County, Texas
Age: 7 years
Estimated birth year: abt 1913
Birthplace: Texas
Relation to Head of House: Son
Father's Name: Shaw A
Father's Birth Place: Texas
Mother's Name: Velma
Mother's Birth Place: Texas
Marital Status: Single
Race: White
Sex: Male
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Image: 428
U.S. World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938?1946:
Name: Winfred C Barnes
Birth Year: 1912
Race: White, citizen (White)
Nativity State or Country: Texas
State of Residence: Texas
County or City: Bexar
Enlistment Date: 11 Mar 1942
Enlistment State: Texas
Enlistment City: Fort Sam Houston
Grade: Private
Term of Enlistment: Enlistment for the duration of the War or other
emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President
or otherwise according to law
Component: Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source: Civil Life
Education: 2 years of college
Civil Occupation: Accountants and auditors
Marital Status: Single, without dependents
Height: 71
Weight: 156
Nevada divorce index, 1968?2005:
Name: Winfred Clark Barnes
Record Type: Defendant
Spouse's name: Lois E Barnes
Divorce Date: 21 May 1975
County: Clark
Control Certificate Number: 35600
Court Code: 8
Florida death index, 1877?1998:
John Fiorentino
Yes, there is much more work to be done on this. I do believe Oz left NO on
the 24th. Late afternoon, early evening.
John F.
"greg" <greg....@dockearth.com> wrote in message
news:53f2bc36-3368-4b2c...@m33g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
yeuhd
wrote:
> It appears the only thing you've found is the divorce. Nice work though!
>
> John F.
>
"It appears the only thing you've found is the divorce." ???
Obviously, I also found his record in the Social Security Death Index,
the Florida Death Index, the U.S. Army Enlistment Records of World War
II, and the 1920 U.S. Census.
John Fiorentino
the Florida Death Index, the U.S. Army Enlistment Records of World War
II, and the 1920 U.S. Census."
Well, you found some, not necessarily *his*
John F.
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2a5d5b51-d1f0-43dc...@9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
yeuhd
wrote:
> "Obviously, I also found his record in the Social Security Death Index,
> the Florida Death Index, the U.S. Army Enlistment Records of World War
> II, and the 1920 U.S. Census."
>
> Well, you found some, not necessarily *his*
>
> John F.
They are all the same person. Apparently you are bothered that someone
posted this information before you.
James K. Olmstead
jko
Peter Fokes
<jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>Well.....It's back to tying flies and online poker
>
>jko
Don't put all your fish in one basket!
Peter Fokes,
Toronto
John Fiorentino
You just need to review what you've found. As a matter of fact, I believe
I made an error when I first read your post re: the divorce.
It's very easy to "latch on to the wrong balloon" when doing these things.
That's why I haven't posted anything yet. I just may NEVER post anything.
I've sent some preliminary info. to a few people for their review, but as
far as publicly posting, I'd have to be 100% sure I was on to something.
A simple search of SS records, birth and death/divorce etc., is not going
to get it done in this case. Don't you think it's been done a myriad of
times in the intervening 46 years since JFK was killed? Of course it has.
So, I'm not "upset" nor am I discouraging your efforts. If you want to
post preliminary results go right ahead.
The issue by the way is not what you've found may refer to "the same
person" but rather is it the RIGHT person.
The true issues here are (among others) "Why was the FBI unable to locate
Mr. Barnes?" "Was the information provided by Barnes telephonically to the
FBI accurate?" and "Was the information provided by Barnes on his tourist
card accurate?"
So, I would just caution you to review ALL information carefully.
John F.
"yeuhd" <needle...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8443fd91-05fb-4163...@b2g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
John Fiorentino
Are you following the original thread? I don't know how this thing wound
up here?
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b1a73d8$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
James K. Olmstead
thread moves towards a new direction I don't like to waste time until the
material is ready for discussion. This thread is moving and I just bought
some new wools and poly/acrlic yarns to play with until this threaad gets
back on track.
I'm going on a major research trip in 3 weeks and will be off line for 3
months....part of this trip deals with testing flies in western waters.
I will follow this and add to it if it gets back on Oswald's check/PO
box/signatures...otherwise I'm tying flies.
jko
"John Fiorentino" <johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b1a96c5$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John Fiorentino
I wish you luck on your trip. Though the thread might be perceived as
moving in another direction, my personal investigation really isn't. All
of this may be intertwined and needs to be looked at.
I just yesterday read your post on Tim Prado Chapa.
Anyway, best wishes on your journey.
John F.
"James K. Olmstead" <jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4b1b1dcb$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...
John Fiorentino
See my update on Barnes in the thread "Challenge to buffs: David Ferrie"
John F.
"John Fiorentino" <johnfio...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b1a3fcd$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...