Continuation -- The Postmark On Oswald's Envelope

[David Von Pein]

On October 15, 2012, while attempting to acquire still more information
about the "12" that appears in the postmark on Oswald's envelope, I sought
the opinion of a man with whom I recently became "friends" at Facebook,
Jimmy Orr, who not only has a great interest in the JFK assassination, but
who is also, coincidentally, a supervisor for the United States Postal
Service. Here is my conversation with Mr. Orr:

Hi Jimmy,

I just noticed that you are a Manager/Supervisor at the U.S. Postal
Service, which is an occupation that comes in mighty handy when
discussing the topic at the link provided in this post. And since
you're also interested in the JFK assassination, you would be the
perfect person to add your USPS expertise to this topic. I've had
several people from the "Post Mark Collectors Club" and the "Machine
Cancel Society" chime in with their views, but there doesn't seem to
be a definitive answer (yet). Here's the discussion:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

David Von Pein
October 15, 2012

================================

http://www.facebook.com/jimmy.orr.54

JIMMY ORR SAID:

At first glance, David . . . the postmark seems to be of a Model G
flyer, of which we still use one in Greenville [South Carolina] to
this day. An electric machine, it probably dates to the 1930's, but is
still useful to cancel heavy, non-automation pieces.

There would have been absolutely NO local zone classification for
cancellations in 1963, as there are absolutely none to date on this
equipment. The number 12, most assuredly, would have indicated a
machine number at the processing plant in Dallas. Nothing more,
nothing less. I have been with USPS for 29 years now. Nothing on a
postmark other than city, state, and zip code has EVER indicated an
origination.

[The] MPO [Main Post Office] in Dallas would have typically had a
large workroom area with multiple flyer machines in 1963. It is also
quite probable that they had as many as twelve mechanized Mark II
cancellation machines. The dies would be nearly identical and would
merely indicate the machine number. I believe, firmly, that no
conclusion can be drawn about the origin of the letter within the
Dallas community by observing the postmark.

Also David, the time of 10:30 [which is also stamped on Commission
Exhibit 773] would indicate the 'clearance' time for delivery.
Anything before 10:30 would constitute next day service. That which
was received later would not. There would have been ABSOLUTELY no
changing of the dies to reflect what time the letter was
received . . . with the letter volume of 1963 as compared to today's
internet generation . . . the notion is ludicrous . . . cancellations
in Dallas at the time were probably upwards of 300,000 letters per
day.

==============================

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you very much, Jimmy. The information you have provided is very
helpful indeed. And doubly so, considering it comes from a 29-year
veteran of the United States Postal Service. I very much appreciate
your valuable assistance on this matter.

[Anthony Marsh]

You should have asked him about the Postal regulations in 1963 about
sending weapons to someone's postal box.
Or what he knows about the standard KGB trick of putting microdots under
the stamps on perfectly innocent correspondence. I once sent another
researcher some information under the mailing label used on an empty
envelope. The key to the code was determined by exactly how many
millimeters the address label was to the right of the left side of the
envelope and how many millimeters above the bottom of the envelope.

[David Von Pein]

More Follow-ups:

-------------

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Hi again Jimmy [Orr],

I'd like to get a clarification if I could about this statement you

made earlier. You said:

"There would have been absolutely NO local zone classification for

cancellations in 1963. .... I have been with USPS for 29 years now.

Nothing on a postmark other than city, state, and zip code has EVER
indicated an origination."

I'm curious to know how you know for a fact that "there would have

been absolutely NO local zone classification for cancellations in

1963"? Since you started working for the USPS in 1983, which was years
after Zip Codes came into existence, it's obvious that you would have
never seen any postmark with a "Postal Zone" code attached to it in
these last 29 years.

I'll also point you to the following quote from a Mr. A.J. Savakis of
the "Machine Cancel Society":

"It [the "12" on Oswald's envelope] could be a postal zone OR a
machine number OR a dial given to a specific postal worker to work a
machine OR represents a special tour of processing mail at a special
point OR any other representation decided by the Dallas postal
authorities. I can't rule it out."

So, Mr. Savakis seems to think that the "12" in the 1963 Dallas
postmark could be a postal zone after all. I'm just trying to pin down
a definitive answer on this matter, if that's possible to do. But, as
you can see, there are some disagreements--even among people who
belong to organizations specializing in all things relating to
postmarks.

Any further observations or information you can provide would be, as
always, appreciated.

Thanks.

DVP


================================


JIMMY ORR SAID:

David,

True that I have managed a USPS cancellation unit for more years now
than I care to remember and it is true that my remarks were made in
good faith.

In the very beginning I was accustomed to the exact equipment that
would have been used in Dallas in 1963, and I had folks in my unit who
were 'veterans' of that postal era. None of the above precludes the
possibility that my reasoning might be erroneous. I firmly believe
that I am right, but I will do a little investigating of my own now
and get back to you as soon as possible.

Sincerely, J.


================================


JIMMY ORR ADDED:

Just a further note:

My hometown of Greenville [South Carolina] has zip codes that were
established when zip first came into existence in the 1960's. The
codes denote sub-stations in Greenville. Station A, Station B,
Parkplace, Federal Station, Berea Branch, etc.

When the carriers assigned to each of these stations return in the
afternoon, everything is consolidated and trucked to the Sectional
Center Facility, or SCF, as it was known for most of my years and
those previous to my tenure. In this facility (such as in downtown
Dallas) the whole was 'cancelled' in one large workfloor space and
trayed for manual or machine distribution. It is extremely unlikely to
me that this particular mailpiece could have ever been traced back to
a certain municipal or surburban area of Dallas once it was dropped in
the mailbox.

By contrast, as much as things have changed, I think they still tend
to stay the same; somewhat. I have four automated advanced facer
canceller machines running to date in Greenville, and by the postal
indicia stamp killer bars, I cannot tell you where in Greenville the
piece was mailed from, but I can tell you which one of my machines
cancelled the stamp.

It is my professional opinion that the number 12 designates either a
mechanized flyer or perhaps even the more advanced mechanical
canceller, the Mark II. There is nothing logical to me that would
assign the number to a point of origination or to a particular postal
operator. It just doesn't make any sense to me. However, as I said, we
are onto something here, and I will investigate it further, for my own
peace of mind.


================================


DAVID VON PEIN ADDED:

Thanks very much, Jimmy.


-----------------

Full Discussion:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-postmark-on-commission-exhibit-773.html

[David Von Pein]

JIMMY ORR SAID:

David, to cut to the chase . . . it IS my professional opinion that
the letter was cancelled at the Dallas Main Post Office. The number 12
merely indicates a Model G flyer (much like a Singer sewing machine)
or a Mark II unit at the Main Office.

I cannot tell you where it was dropped into a mail slot, could have
been downtown or might have been in Oak Cliff. Delivery zones are for
delivery, there is no such designation for collections. Few living
souls actually realize what 100,000 letters look like, much less how
the tooth-fairy sorts them all out. Dallas City was by 1963 shipping
everything to the SCF. It would not have been practical, nor plausable
to run a cancellation unit in every nook and cranny of the city and
suburbs.


================================


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

There is no doubt (per Dallas Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes' Warren
Commission testimony) that Oswald purchased the $21.45 money order for
his mail-order rifle at the Main Post Office in Dallas. That's
evidently an ironclad fact. Therefore, it stands to reason that he
dropped it in the mail while he was right there inside the post office
on March 12, 1963 (which is the date on the money order and on the
postmark).

The two main "Post Office"-related arguments that conspiracy theorists
have made over the years relating to this particular envelope and mail-
order transaction are:

1.) If the "12" on the envelope represents postal zone #12 for the
city of Dallas, which apparently was located miles from the Main Post
Office, then why did Oswald walk miles out of his way to mail the
letter when he could have mailed it right there at the Main Post
Office? But this argument is pretty much debunked by these words
written by Jimmy Orr: "I cannot tell you where it was dropped into a
mail slot, could have been downtown or might have been in Oak Cliff.
Delivery zones are for delivery, there is no such designation for
collections."

2.) How did Oswald's letter get all the way to Chicago in just 24
hours? It was stamped with a "10:30 AM" postmark on 3/12/63, and
Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago received it and processed the order
for the mail-order rifle the very next day (per Waldman Exhibit No. 7,
which plainly shows a stamped date of "Mar. 13, '63" at the top of
that internal Klein's invoice).

You, Jimmy, being in the postal industry for so many years, can
probably also provide some good information concerning that second
argument made by the conspiracy theorists.

I have no doubt whatsoever in my own mind that Oswald's letter did, in
fact, reach Chicago from Dallas in just one day--departing Dallas on
the morning of March 12, and arriving in Klein's hands in Chicago
sometime on March 13. Every scrap of evidence indicates it DID happen
that way. We must also consider the fact that Oswald mailed the letter
via Air Mail too. Wouldn't that have sped things up quite a bit (circa
1963)?

Jimmy, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an air
mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois (provided
the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas time)?

[David Von Pein]

JIMMY ORR SAID:

I regret that I disappoint you, David. But when you try to ascertain who
mailed their boss a letter bomb or a sack of shit via USPS you might
understand the frustration.

I worked in local law enforcement for eight years prior to my postal
career. It is no small wonder to me that the mystery of the 'anthrax'
letters has never been solved, nor the ricin incident at my own facility
in Greenville and at the White House.

Terms such as Cancellation, Processing, Origin, and Delivery are as
different as night and day in the postal world. It is a complex network.

I certainly believe that Oswald bought the money order at the Dallas
Terminal Annex Facility. I firmly believe that he mailed the envelope
there and that the same was cancelled there perhaps by an antiquated flyer
given the mystic number 12.

Conspiracy's argument that a delivery zone designation constitutes a point
of origin makes no goddamned sense to me. The Zip Code was implemented in
1963 as a delivery device. While in modern perspective it is used in
conjunction with indicia to indicate origin, I have as yet to find such to
be the case in a historical perspective. In short, they either printed the
goddamned town or station name on the cancellation die or not . . . .
Hence, what does Dallas, Tex mean to you ? :)


=========================================

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

When I did I ever give you the impression that I am "disappointed" in you
regarding this matter, Jimmy? Quite the contrary. I greatly appreciate the
time you've taken to explain a lot of this USPS stuff. Each post you've
made concerning this topic has been quite valuable.

In point of fact, though, all of this talk about the "12" on Oswald's
envelope is relatively unimportant in the larger scheme of things relating
to the JFK assassination, because the physical evidence proves, beyond all
reasonable doubt, that Lee Harvey Oswald positively did mail that money
order and rifle coupon to Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago on 3/12/63.
And the evidence further proves, beyond all doubt, that Klein's received
that exact envelope in the mail by March 13, 1963.

But the loony conspiracy theorists aren't satisfied at all with PHYSICAL
evidence all over the place that proves, for all time, that Oswald
ordered, paid for, and was shipped Carcano rifle #C2766. The conspiracists
want to pretend that ALL of the documents associated with that rifle
purchase are phony and fraudulent. That's how bad it is in the JFK
"research community". Pretty soon, I imagine they'll have Jack Ruby
actually ordering the gun instead of "Hidell"/Oswald, and they'll have
Ruby planting it on the sixth floor too.

I'll ask this question again, since you might have missed it the first
time:

Jimmy Orr, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an air

mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois (provided the
letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas time)?

Thanks.

[David Von Pein]

David Von Pein said:

Jimmy Orr, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an

air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois
(provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas
time)?

Jimmy Orr said:

David, Cancelled in Dallas by 10:30 AM and flown to Chicago that
afternoon. Arrival for mail processing at a Chicago General Mail
Facility during the early morning hours of the 13th and on the street
for delivery to Klein's that same day. Makes perfect sense considering
the volumes handled in 1963.


David Von Pein said:

Thank you again, Jimmy. That's exactly what I hoped to hear from you
regarding the next-day delivery.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/16/2012 3:15 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> JIMMY ORR SAID:
>
> David, to cut to the chase . . . it IS my professional opinion that
> the letter was cancelled at the Dallas Main Post Office. The number 12
> merely indicates a Model G flyer (much like a Singer sewing machine)
> or a Mark II unit at the Main Office.
>
> I cannot tell you where it was dropped into a mail slot, could have
> been downtown or might have been in Oak Cliff. Delivery zones are for
> delivery, there is no such designation for collections. Few living
> souls actually realize what 100,000 letters look like, much less how
> the tooth-fairy sorts them all out. Dallas City was by 1963 shipping
> everything to the SCF. It would not have been practical, nor plausable
> to run a cancellation unit in every nook and cranny of the city and
> suburbs.
>
>
> ================================
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
> There is no doubt (per Dallas Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes' Warren
> Commission testimony) that Oswald purchased the $21.45 money order for
> his mail-order rifle at the Main Post Office in Dallas. That's
> evidently an ironclad fact. Therefore, it stands to reason that he
> dropped it in the mail while he was right there inside the post office
> on March 12, 1963 (which is the date on the money order and on the
> postmark).
>

"Stands to reason"? You would be fired by the prosecution for opening
the door to reasonable doubt.
You say things like that because you can't prove anything.

> The two main "Post Office"-related arguments that conspiracy theorists
> have made over the years relating to this particular envelope and mail-
> order transaction are:
>
> 1.) If the "12" on the envelope represents postal zone #12 for the
> city of Dallas, which apparently was located miles from the Main Post
> Office, then why did Oswald walk miles out of his way to mail the
> letter when he could have mailed it right there at the Main Post
> Office? But this argument is pretty much debunked by these words
> written by Jimmy Orr: "I cannot tell you where it was dropped into a
> mail slot, could have been downtown or might have been in Oak Cliff.
> Delivery zones are for delivery, there is no such designation for
> collections."
>
> 2.) How did Oswald's letter get all the way to Chicago in just 24
> hours? It was stamped with a "10:30 AM" postmark on 3/12/63, and
> Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago received it and processed the order
> for the mail-order rifle the very next day (per Waldman Exhibit No. 7,
> which plainly shows a stamped date of "Mar. 13, '63" at the top of
> that internal Klein's invoice).
>

This is not meant as a slur, but in the old days they sometimes
delivered mail more quickly.

> You, Jimmy, being in the postal industry for so many years, can
> probably also provide some good information concerning that second
> argument made by the conspiracy theorists.
>
> I have no doubt whatsoever in my own mind that Oswald's letter did, in
> fact, reach Chicago from Dallas in just one day--departing Dallas on
> the morning of March 12, and arriving in Klein's hands in Chicago
> sometime on March 13. Every scrap of evidence indicates it DID happen
> that way. We must also consider the fact that Oswald mailed the letter
> via Air Mail too. Wouldn't that have sped things up quite a bit (circa
> 1963)?
>
> Jimmy, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an air
> mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois (provided
> the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas time)?
>

You mean today? Maybe 6 days. Try marking it airmail and see what happens.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/16/2012 7:53 PM, David Von Pein wrote:
> JIMMY ORR SAID:
>
> I regret that I disappoint you, David. But when you try to ascertain who
> mailed their boss a letter bomb or a sack of shit via USPS you might
> understand the frustration.
>
> I worked in local law enforcement for eight years prior to my postal
> career. It is no small wonder to me that the mystery of the 'anthrax'
> letters has never been solved, nor the ricin incident at my own facility
> in Greenville and at the White House.
>

Maybe it has been solved already, but you don't have high enough
clearance to know the details.

> Terms such as Cancellation, Processing, Origin, and Delivery are as
> different as night and day in the postal world. It is a complex network.
>
> I certainly believe that Oswald bought the money order at the Dallas
> Terminal Annex Facility. I firmly believe that he mailed the envelope
> there and that the same was cancelled there perhaps by an antiquated flyer
> given the mystic number 12.
>
> Conspiracy's argument that a delivery zone designation constitutes a point
> of origin makes no goddamned sense to me. The Zip Code was implemented in
> 1963 as a delivery device. While in modern perspective it is used in
> conjunction with indicia to indicate origin, I have as yet to find such to
> be the case in a historical perspective. In short, they either printed the
> goddamned town or station name on the cancellation die or not . . . .
> Hence, what does Dallas, Tex mean to you ? :)
>
>

Is someone intentionally trying to conflate delivery Zip Codes with
stamp cancellation codes?

[David Von Pein]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

A related topic for USPS manager Jimmy Orr (regarding the application
forms filled out by Lee Harvey Oswald for Dallas Post Office Box No.
2915):

Any thoughts, Jimmy O., about the controversy discussed in the article
linked below? ....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/post-office-applications.html

=================================

JIMMY ORR SAID:

The subject of whether Hidell was on the [post office box] application
or not is irrelevant. Post Office Window Clerks do not reference
applications when delivering parcels across the counter. Not even by
today's security standards.

If Oswald was required to sign for the delivery, he simply produced a
DD-217 bearing the name ALEK JAMES HIDELL. We are talking about a
moment in time when there was no such thing as a picture ID, and a
driver's license was little more than an engraved metal dog tag. My
first law enforcement credentials in South Carolina during the mid
1970's did not bear a photograph.

The handwriting analysis performed is sufficient alone to indicate him
as to the box rental and the order of the rifle. Also, the
interpretation of Postal Regulation varies from office to office.
There is generally no prescribed enforcement, not then, and not now.

[John Fiorentino]

David:

Since this is a related topic, can you help me with this? I posted it on
another thread.

On another thread here something brought back a question to my mind.

Did we ever find out what was waiting for Oswald at the Post Office re: his
attempt to deliver mail notice found at Ruth Paine's dated Nov. 20, 1963??

Anybody know??

John F.




Thanks

John F.






"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d9fa3563-3416-4737...@4g2000yql.googlegroups.com...

[John Reagor King]

In article
<d9fa3563-3416-4737...@4g2000yql.googlegroups.com>,

Ah yes, looks like this might be yet another factoid that is now
conclusively debunked. I also found this comment on your blog to be
interesting, referring to two images of Dallas postmarks immediately
below this text:

'The 1967 postmark has "3B" following the Dallas notation; while the
1968 postmark example has "1B" stamped on it. So, unless Dallas had
postal zones labeled with a mixture of numbers and letters (which I've
never seen before), then those markings seen in these postmarks can't
represent postal zones.'

I am looking right now at a letter sent to me by a relative, and
immediately after the date the postmark has this:

6 T

Literally nothing else appears in the entire postmark except for the
city, state, zip code, and date.

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Did we ever find out what was waiting for Oswald at the Post Office
re: his attempt to deliver mail notice found at Ruth Paine's dated Nov.
20, 1963?" <<<

John F.,

I do not know, but does your inquiry pertain in some way to the
"mystery bag" that was sent to "Oswald" at "Nassau St." (or some
similar street where Oswald never lived)?

The CTers love to make huge mountains out of that "mystery bag" (even
though it goes absolutely nowhere, of course). Is your question
related to that?

[Anthony Marsh]

SHH! Those are secret codes that you are not allowed to ask about. They
might think you are a terrorist.

[Anthony Marsh]

Are you guys talking about this package?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YwYqFBoL3ZA/S0nxNLG3A0I/AAAAAAAAAI8/Urm8NzsEjkg/s400/PaperBagPackage.jpg

Someone wrote a blog page about it.

http://oswaldsmother.blogspot.com/2010/01/mysterious-package.html



Essays on the assassination of JFK
Sunday, January 10, 2010
The Mysterious Package

One of the more obscure pieces of evidence in the Kennedy assassination
is the package mailed to Lee Oswald shortly before the assassination
from Irving, Texas. There are two things wrong with it. One, the street
address is wrong and two, there was insufficient postage. There was no
return address either. Discovered in the dead letter department of the
Irving, Texas post office two weeks after the assassination, it was a
package Oswald never saw or most likely never knew had been mailed to
him. The framing of the guilty man?

The Package Contents
The package was discovered by C. G. Twilley on December 4, 1963. It was
addressed to Lee Oswald, but the address was for 601 West Nassau Street.
A street that did not exist in Dallas, Texas. The package was short $.12
on the postage. Odd, as it was metered postage and not stamps.

The package was opened by Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes, a
controversial figure in the course of the investigation. (He was the
only non-police officer to question Oswald.) The package contained a
long, empty paper bag similar to the one found in the sixth floor of the
Texas school book depository building. This the bag Oswald allegedly
used to sneak the rifle into work that morning. More controversy sounds
this as only one witness, Wesley Frasier saw Oswald with the package. He
flunked his polygraph examination as well. Also, Oswald’s fingerprints
were never found on the paper bag discovered by Dallas police
detectives. But that is the topic for another article.

So here we have a second paper bag. This means that either Oswald was
truly a nut that went around mailing empty paper bags to himself using
phony addresses, which also would incriminate him for the crime; or two,
he was part of a conspiracy and his fellow conspirators knew of his role
in the plot and were out to frame him for the assassination. A package
mailed without sufficient postage, with no return address to a
non-existent mailing address is a package designed to arrive at a
location and be discovered. Which it would be as the FBI would be very
interested in all arriving mail to Lee Oswald after the assassination
and seeking clues.

The Postage Due Card
As if all of this were not strange enough, on November 23, a post due
card arrives at Ruth Paine’s address at 2515 W. 5th Street in Irving.
It’s $.12 due, just as the package with the phony Nassau street address
was. But there is no package for Oswald waiting for him with Ruth
Paine’s address on it. Only the one with the Nassau address which is
unknown till two weeks later. So the postage due card should never have
been sent in the first place unless somebody at the post office knew Lee
Oswald was using the 2515 W. 5th Street address as a drop-off. If that
is the case, we’ll never know who or why.

So if you don’t want to believe in a conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy
then don’t. But you’ll always have the empty paper bag to deal with.

Sources:
Armstrong, John, Harvey and Lee; Marrs, Jim, Crossfire;
www.history-matters.com; www.ctka.net (Probe Magazine article archive)

[John Fiorentino]

Anthony:

I think the blog is a little mixed up here:

"As if all of this were not strange enough, on November 23, a post due

card arrives at Ruth Paine?s address at 2515 W. 5th Street in Irving. It?s

$.12 due, just as the package with the phony Nassau street address was."

The Stovall Exhibit B contradicts this part of the story.

I see no connection between the Paine Notice and the parcel mailed to
Nassau St.

The Paine inventory shows plainly "Notice of attempt to deliver mail" a
parcel to be picked up. Nothing about any postage due.

John F.



"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:507f74fa$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

> examination as well. Also, Oswald?s fingerprints were never found on the

> paper bag discovered by Dallas police detectives. But that is the topic
> for another article.
>
> So here we have a second paper bag. This means that either Oswald was
> truly a nut that went around mailing empty paper bags to himself using
> phony addresses, which also would incriminate him for the crime; or two,
> he was part of a conspiracy and his fellow conspirators knew of his role
> in the plot and were out to frame him for the assassination. A package
> mailed without sufficient postage, with no return address to a
> non-existent mailing address is a package designed to arrive at a location
> and be discovered. Which it would be as the FBI would be very interested
> in all arriving mail to Lee Oswald after the assassination and seeking
> clues.
>
> The Postage Due Card
> As if all of this were not strange enough, on November 23, a post due card

> arrives at Ruth Paine?s address at 2515 W. 5th Street in Irving. It?s $.12

> due, just as the package with the phony Nassau street address was. But

> there is no package for Oswald waiting for him with Ruth Paine?s address

> on it. Only the one with the Nassau address which is unknown till two
> weeks later. So the postage due card should never have been sent in the
> first place unless somebody at the post office knew Lee Oswald was using

> the 2515 W. 5th Street address as a drop-off. If that is the case, we?ll

> never know who or why.
>

> So if you don?t want to believe in a conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy
> then don?t. But you?ll always have the empty paper bag to deal with.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/18/2012 4:28 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> Anthony:
>

> I think the blog is a little mixed up here:
>
> "As if all of this were not strange enough, on November 23, a post due
> card arrives at Ruth Paine?s address at 2515 W. 5th Street in Irving.
> It?s $.12 due, just as the package with the phony Nassau street address
> was."
>
> The Stovall Exhibit B contradicts this part of the story.
>
> I see no connection between the Paine Notice and the parcel mailed to
> Nassau St.
>
> The Paine inventory shows plainly "Notice of attempt to deliver mail" a
> parcel to be picked up. Nothing about any postage due.
>

THe inventory is not the note itself, just a summation of what it
represents.

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/18/2012 4:24 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> David:
>
> No, this was a notice re: "attempt to deliver mail" dated November 20,
> 1963 which was found at Ruth Paine's home and addressed to "Mr. Lee
> Oswald."
>
> See attached Stovall Exhibit B
>
> John F.
>

Yes, the package could not be delivered because there was postage due.

>
> "David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message

> news:09d2befc-9380-4893...@g4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

[John Fiorentino]

First Tony,

The article said a postage due note was sent to Paine's and received 11/23.

The Stovall inventory was taken on 11/23 at Paine's. The "attempt to deliver
mail" notice was dated 11/20/63.

And of course WHY would ANY notice be sent to Paine's house?

Something isn't quite right?

Help anyone??

John F.



"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:5080a0db$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

[John Fiorentino]

Yea, and another thing, the label on the package seems to have been placed
over the original address on the package, as the handwritten Irving Texas
would seem to indicate.

Stovall also indicates "Mr." Lee Oswald, but the package label says simply
"Lee Oswald."

Was the handwriting ever analyzed??

John F.



"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:50809e38$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...

[John Fiorentino]

David:

"(even though it goes absolutely nowhere, of course)."

Could that be because the FBI dropped the ball?

John F.


"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:09d2befc-9380-4893...@g4g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...

[David Von Pein]

JOHN F. SAID:

>>> "Could that be because the FBI dropped the ball?" <<<

DVP:

Could be. Or: it could be because it really does lead nowhere.

[David Von Pein]

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Jimmy Orr, in your experience, in general, how long does it take an
air mail letter to go from Dallas, Texas, to Chicago, Illinois
(provided the letter was mailed no later than 10:30 AM local Dallas
time)?

USPS EMPLOYEE JIMMY ORR SAID:

David, Cancelled in Dallas by 10:30 AM and flown to Chicago that
afternoon. Arrival for mail processing at a Chicago General Mail
Facility during the early morning hours of the 13th and on the street
for delivery to Klein's that same day. Makes perfect sense considering
the volumes handled in 1963.

DAVID VON PEIN NOW SAYS:

Sometimes sources of information can come from the funniest places.
Like the following audio clip from an episode of Groucho Marx's quiz
show "You Bet Your Life". Groucho is interviewing a contestant who
works for a helicopter Air Mail service in Los Angeles. The contestant
is talking about how it's possible to mail a letter in California
"tonight" and have that letter arrive in New York "tomorrow morning".

And keep in mind that the date of this Groucho Marx show is January 9,
1952, which is 11 years before Lee Harvey Oswald had his mail travel
the 802 miles from Dallas to Chicago, which is many fewer miles than
the California-to-New York journey discussed during the Groucho
excerpt. And it's also SIX YEARS before jet aircraft became a
commonplace mode of transportation in the United States.

So the next-day mail service being discussed in this 1952 Groucho clip
was certainly being accomplished via slower, propeller-driven aircraft
and helicopters (when compared to the type of faster air mail service
that was very likely being utilized when Oswald sent his order form to
Klein's Sporting Goods in the year 1963).

http://www.box.com/s/efa74dw67xv2t372npky

Funny, isn't it? The places you can find useful information. :-)

[Anthony Marsh]

That's because back then they had airmail service and that is what
Oswald paid extra for. Plus the air currents were running west to east
and they had several direct flights from California to New York every
day. Dallas to Chicago is slower.

> So the next-day mail service being discussed in this 1952 Groucho clip
> was certainly being accomplished via slower, propeller-driven aircraft
> and helicopters (when compared to the type of faster air mail service
> that was very likely being utilized when Oswald sent his order form to
> Klein's Sporting Goods in the year 1963).
>

Yeah, those SR-71s were a lot faster.
Is all this nonsense to refute one kook who doubts that his order could
get there the next day? You need an atomic bomb to kill a mosquito?

[Anthony Marsh]

On 10/19/2012 3:23 PM, John Fiorentino wrote:
> First Tony,
>
> The article said a postage due note was sent to Paine's and received 11/23.
>
> The Stovall inventory was taken on 11/23 at Paine's. The "attempt to
> deliver mail" notice was dated 11/20/63.
>
> And of course WHY would ANY notice be sent to Paine's house?
>

I don't think anyone said the notice was SENT to the Paine's house.
Just found at the Paine's house. Theoretically Oswald could have taken
it out there on Thursday night.

[John Fiorentino]

David:

DAVID SAID:

Could be. Or: it could be because it really does lead nowhere

JF

Most likely, but I'm going to look at it more closely.

I thought I knew it all at one point, and now with some other things I'm
investigating, I not so sure.

John F.



"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:6f1a1892-0e3c-48b5...@y8g2000yqy.googlegroups.com...

[David Von Pein]

TONY MARSH SAID:

>>> "Is all this nonsense to refute one kook who doubts that his order
could get there the next day?" <<<

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

It's not just "one kook", Tony. There are many CTers who believe that
it was physically impossible for Oswald's rifle order to get to
Chicago in 24 hours, despite the ironclad proof that it did make the
trip from Dallas to Chicago in one day's time in March of 1963. And
that proof is CE773 in conjunction with Waldman Exhibit No. 7.

http://www.box.com/s/efa74dw67xv2t372npky

I just happened to stumble across the Groucho Marx audio excerpt
(above) featuring the contestant who talked about next-day coast-to-
coast mail service, so I decided to use it as an extra layer of
corroboration to support the idea that a piece of U.S. mail can travel
great distances in just 24 hours (or less) -- even in 1952. And I
utilized USPS employee Jimmy Orr's remarks as further corroboration as
well.

[John Fiorentino]

Tony:

It had her address on it. Who cares really if he brought it there?

Frankly, that would be impossible, wouldn't you say?

John F.



"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:50824056$1...@mcadams.posc.mu.edu...