Mary Ferrell on Judyth
John McAdams
and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
explicit permission.
<Quote on>
Wednesday, December 12, 2001
The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
by my careless words or deeds. I have tried to refrain from talking
about Judyth Vary Baker and her alleged association with Lee Harvey
Oswald for more than a year now - afraid that I might say or do
something that would hurt her or her family. I have been uncertain as
to her motives and preferred to believe that she was delusional and,
although I believed she had actually known and probably worked for a
short time with Lee Harvey Oswald, her "affair" with Lee Oswald was
all something she dreamed up.
Judyth came to my home more than a year ago, late in the
afternoon in November 2000. A charming young woman named Debbee
Reynolds accompanied Judyth. Debbee was and is an employee of
American Airlines. Debbee had managed to obtain free transportation
on American Airlines for Judyth to come from Layfayette, Louisiana, to
visit her sister, Mrs. Tony (Lynda) Bauer, in Dallas.
One of the first things Judyth did when entering my home was
look at a set of the 26 volumes in shelves adjacent to my front door.
Judyth said, "Oh, is that what they look like? I've seen pictures of
them but I've never actually seen them before. I've never read
anything. I just know everything that happened because I knew Lee."
She seated herself on the floor close to my feet and started
telling all about her wonderful love affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.
She told how she met him in April of 1963 in a New Orleans or
Metairie, Louisiana, post office, while standing at the General
Delivery window. She said she and her soon-to-be husband, Robert
Baker, had chosen to write to each other through General Delivery
using code names. One of the names used was similar to Rorke and
either she or Lee misunderstood and thought the name being used was
Alexander Rorke. Judyth said it had been planned that Alexander Rorke
would pick up Lee Oswald in a plane in some part of the Yucatan,
Mexico. She was so startled that she dropped a rolled-up newspaper
that was under her arm and Lee Oswald stooped and retrieved it. When
he handed it to her, she thanked him in Russian.
I asked her why she would use the Russian language to a man
she didn't know standing in a line at the post office in Louisiana.
She claimed that Dr. Oschner and his colleagues had insisted that she
study Russian and become fluent in the language. She never gave a
coherent answer about why she was instructed to learn Russian. She
did ramble off several portions of sentences that did not make sense.
She said, in effect, that she was "thinking" in Russian. (I studied
three years of High School Latin, four years of High School Spanish
and, following the assassination, I used every available text book,
audio aide and visual aides to intensively study Russian for one year.
I was only able to think in English at the end of that year.)
When talking about Alexander Rorke, she said she was to meet
Lee and Rorke in Cancun, Mexico, following the assassination. She had
a book that she claimed David Ferrie had given to her to use as her
pass into Eglin Air Force Base in Florida where she was to be put
aboard a plane and flown to Mexico to meet with Lee. "Eglin Air Force
Base" was stamped on the spine of the book.
I questioned Judyth about her first meeting with Oswald and
the exact date it occurred. She claimed it was within a day or two of
his arrival in New Orleans in April 1963. She also claimed she
accompanied him to visit his father's grave but never gave an exact
location of the grave. (According to the Warren Commission's
investigation, Lee visited his aunt, Mrs. Arthur A. P. Alice Barre, on
St. Charles Avenue in New Orleans, to learn where his father was
buried. Judyth did not answer me when I asked if she was with him
when he visited his aunt.)
At one point, Judyth said, "I can tell you where Lee was on
the two occasions when you don't know where he was." I asked her how
she knew that there were two periods when I didn't know where he was.
She stuttered a bit and finally said that Martin Shakleford had
questioned her from my chronologies. However, she never gave any
explanation of when those two periods were nor where she knew that Lee
was during the two periods.
She said 60 Minutes had intended to film her story but some
unnamed persons had stopped 60 Minutes. She seemed to blame David
Lifton because she said Lifton's book would not be published if her
book were published. She seemed to think Debra Conway had some part
in her dismissal from 60 Minutes because Debra would no longer have
Lancers if Judyth's book were published.
Judyth said the most ironic thing about the whole thing was
that CBS made the decision not to use her in a film on Lee's birthday,
October 18th, a month before her visit to me.
She begged me to help her get her book published. I told her
I would have to read the book first but finally agreed to write a note
to a friend of mine in New York, Frank Weimann of the Literary Group.
On November 27th, I wrote a short note to Frank Weimann on a scrap of
paper. I have since learned that Judyth has circulated Xerox copies
of that note as proof that I endorse her story.
My note read: "Nov. 27, 2000 Dear Frank, I think you
should take a look at this woman's story. I believe she is credible
and I believe her story will sell. Best regards, Mary Ferrell" I
later learned that she placed a small photo of herself in a pose that
looked very much like an early photo of Marina on the note before she
sent it to Frank. I later asked Frank to make a copy of Judyth's
book for me since she refused to let me look at the book. I have
never seen any portion of the book and I now have no desire to see it.
She and Howard Platzman immediately started sending notes to
Frank Weimann wanting to know when he was going to sell the book,
apparently wanting advances. Frank finally sent the whole book back
to them and refused to work with them. Frank apologized to me and I
told him I was surprised that he had tolerated them as long as he had.
Frank told me that the book would have sold but needed rewriting,
which they refused to do.
Until now, I have discussed this matter with only four
people: Robert Chapman, David Lifton, Debra Conway and Louis Girdler.
They have all kept my disclosures in confidence because I begged them
not to do anything that might cause Judyth to harm herself.
It has now reached the point where I believe Howard Platzman
and Judyth are using what they think is a form of blackmail to prod me
into endorsing Judyth and her entire story. Howard wrote a long email
message to me indicating that I must go on camera or write a message
saying that I believed Judyth's story or I would be branded a demented
old woman. Judyth came to visit me, unannounced, Monday night and she
said almost the same words that Howard had used. Then she brought up
a name from my past - the name of a woman I had not even thought of in
almost 50 years. I asked her where she got that name and she said,
"Carol Anne told me." I immediately said to my son, "Judyth is
leaving. Will you see her to the door." Jimmy escorted her to the
door. I called Carol Anne and told her what had happened. Carol Anne
became almost hysterical and said, "Mother, you know I never said
that." I explained that I had not believed she had said it. Carol
Anne said, "Mother, those people act like they are crazy." My son
Jimmy later said he thinks they act like they might be dangerous.
I want to make it clear that I have never believed Judyth's
"story." I have believed that she knew Lee Harvey Oswald, either as a
co-worker or as an employee she remembered after the assassination. I
have NEVER believed the story of the mad, passionate love affair. I
can account for almost every minute of Lee's life from the time he
joined the Marine Corps until the day of his death. There was
absolutely no time for nights of passionate love and Russian poetry
reading. I do not believe that they had sex in the back of trucks in
Adrian Alba's garage. At the very most, Judyth knew Lee a total of
less than five months. She claims that she talked to Lee just two
days before the assassination by way of a Mafia wire-service phone
line. I do not believe this.
Judyth claims that Lee introduced her to David Ferrie. She
claims that Ferrie introduced her to "Sparky" Rubenstein. She claims
that Lee told her that Carlos Marcello called Jack Ruby when Lee was a
child in Fort Worth and asked Ruby to keep an eye on Lee. She claims
that she last saw Ruby in New Orleans in June 1963.
She claims that as soon as she arrived in New Orleans, in
April 1963, Dr. Oschner got her an apartment where prostitutes were
living and the place was immediately raided and everyone taken to jail
except Judyth. She says Lee got her another apartment. They then
lived close to each other and would ride the bus from Reily out to the
end of the line and ride back so they could sit together.
Her first job, after arriving in New Orleans, was as a
waitress in a hamburgher restaurant in Metairie near Carlos Marcello's
Town and Country Motel. She speaks very familiarly of Carlos Marcello
and says that Lee acted as a courier for Carlos and Lee's uncle, Dutz
Murret.
Her story of Lee's reading to her from the small gray book,
The Queen of Spaces, did startle me because I had seen either this
book or a replica of it in Ruth Paine's living room two or three years
following the assassination. Judyth claimed that the library in
Lafayette, Louisiana, did not have the 26 volumes of the Warren
Commission's work and did not have a copy of The Queen of Spades.
When I asked her if she had tried the university library where she
worked, she said they had nothing. Louis Girdler called the
university library and talked to a woman named Sandy who worked there
and they had everything on the assassination and also had a copy of
Pushkin's play, The Queen of Spades.
Judyth tells a fantastic story about the man who wrote
Andersonville - MacKinlay Kantor. She claims that she would walk with
him through a garden, holding a tape recorder and Kantor would dictate
into the recorder. She says that Kantor "fell in love" with her. She
claims she was still a teenager when this happened.
She claims she wrote to Bertrand Russell about her reluctance
to have sex with Lee because she and he were both married at the time.
She says that Russell wrote to her that she must not let anything hold
her back if they were in love. They must have sex. Joan Mellen was
married to Ralph Schoenman for a number of years. Schoenman was the
top aide to Bertrand Russell during the last years of Russell's life.
Schoenman told Joan that during the period Judyth claims this happened
Russell was not even able to read his own mail and he NEVER wrote such
a letter.
I could go on and on for pages about her truly incredible
stories. I just want to emphasize that I have never told her I
believed she and Lee had a romantic relationship. I have assured her
that I do believe she knew him. I can't explain her knowledge about
the book I saw in Ruth Paine's house between Christmas and New Year's
of 1967. I believe the little book was unique and I know that Judyth
described it perfectly. With few exceptions, Judyth's accounts of her
relationship with Lee could have been concocted from things that have
been published. She has repeatedly said that she loves me because I
want to clear Lee's name and reputation. I have only said that I do
not believe that Lee planned, executed and covered up the
assassination alone. I am not at all certain that Lee's name and
reputation can be "cleared."
--
Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Vince
that Mary, who I (we all) greatly respect has thrown a huge damper on
Judyth..."seems" being the operative word.
Vince:)
Altasrecrd
Great to hear from Mary about this. Very enlightening.
--Mary Ferrell wrote to John McAdams:
>I can't explain her knowledge about
>the book I saw in Ruth Paine's house between Christmas and New Year's
>of 1967. --
And I can't either considering Ruth Paine was in Dallas and Oswald and
Judyth were in New Orleans.
FWIW, this issue could be clarified greatly if Mary or someone else on
speaking terms with Ruth Paine could ask her if she obtained this book
from Marina when she lived there.
That's the only way the story could work; if it was a book Oz had somehow
left with Marina who in turn left it at the Paines.
And the bottom line would remain, So What?
Paul Seaton
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com...
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
>
> <Quote on>
>
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
> Her story of Lee's reading to her from the small gray book,
> The Queen of Spaces,
..... [ Spaces? : ) Is this a Freudian slip? Does MF see Judyth as the
'Queen of Spaces', as in 'She Who Regally Fills in the Blanks'? ]
did startle me because I had seen either this
> book or a replica of it in Ruth Paine's living room two or three years
> following the assassination. Judyth claimed that the library in
> Lafayette, Louisiana, did not have the 26 volumes of the Warren
> Commission's work and did not have a copy of The Queen of Spades.
> When I asked her if she had tried the university library where she
> worked, she said they had nothing. Louis Girdler called the
> university library and talked to a woman named Sandy who worked there
> and they had everything on the assassination and also had a copy of
> Pushkin's play, The Queen of Spades.
'atlasrecrd' wrote (a while back) :
<quote>
4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
just skyrocketed."
<unquote>
So the mysterious " ( ) " in that post is presumably Mary Ferrell.
Here's a slice of an old JKO post:
<quote>
The "items #" are items of evidence recovered after the arrrest
of Lee.
1. "ITEM 178: Book published in Moscow 1961 - Fidel Kastro..... Possibly
by mistake but one must consider that it was "special edition" because the
book included one page from the libretto of Pikoyaya Dama
"Pikovaya Dama" is Russian for Pique Dame or Queen of Spades.
In Lee's notes are the translations of Russian words, but he paid special
attention to the words -
*******
'You will receive the death blow...'"
*******
ITEM 180: Program of Russian opera -- Pikovaya Dama (Queen of Spades) with
notes made by Lee.
<unquote>
Presumably 'ITEM 180' made it's way back to the Ruth Paine residence by '2
or three [or 4] years after' the assassination, and Mary Ferrell saw it
there.
<Ferrell>
>I could go on and on for pages about her truly incredible
>stories. I just want to emphasize that I have never told her I
>believed she and Lee had a romantic relationship. I have assured her
>that I do believe she knew him. I can't explain her knowledge about
>the book I saw in Ruth Paine's house between Christmas and New Year's
>of 1967. I believe the little book was unique and I know that Judyth
>described it perfectly.
The possibilities would then be:
1) Judyth guessed lucky about the libretto. (Lucky enough to make
Ferrell's jaw drop. "Judyth described it perfectly.")
2) She found another copy elsewhere and rightly guessed Lee's would be the
same. (Although "I believe the little book was unique " . Then again, very
few books are literally 'unique'. But "..a copy of Pushkin's play, The
Queen of Spades" in the university library is not a copy of the libretto
of the opera.)
3) She found sufficient material in the literature to describe Lee's copy.
(I've tried with no luck.)
4) She really did see Lee's copy. ("I have assured her that I do believe
she knew him.")
If # 4 is true, this would at least establish that Judyth & Lee were on
libretto-reading terms (..did Lord Russell advise it would be ok to 'read
opera' with a married man? **) , whatever else about her story may or may
not be ...er... slightly embroidered .
Would anyone like to try to defend possibilities 1,2 or 3?
** Do other people habitually write to celebrities to get answers to
questions like "What shall I eat for breakfast?" or "Should I stop biting
my nails?". Maybe I'm missing out on something here:
<
Dear Mahatma Gandhi,
Sorry to trouble you - I know you are a busy fellow - but I want your
opinion on whether or not to get my cat Ossie neutered.....
etc etc..
>
--
® Þ§
http://graffiti.virgin.net/paul.seaton1/jfk/eop_entry/eop.htm
GMcNally
Thanks for publishing this. Mary Ferrell has prepared detailed
chronologies of Oswald's life and when she says, "I can account for almost
every minute of Lee's life from the time he joined the Marine Corps until
the day of his death. There was absolutely no time for nights of
passionate love and Russian poetry reading" she provides the exit line for
Team Judyth's project.
To Judyth and Shackleford and the rest of them I say: No Sale!
Jerry
john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
sefirot
It is true I did not know Judy in 1963, but I have known her since 1988.
The relationship is not amicable, but not because of she is an exwife. I
would love to have an amicable relationship with her, but it is impossible
because of the way she tells her "version" of life's events.
ie: historian for the Mormon Church.
the genuine definition of what she did is:
Bishop of the ward asks her is she is willing to be the historian for the
ward (a term used for a designated radius of members, who attended an
assigned meeting place).
Her duties are to: possibly do a newsletter. keep records of activities.
Very similar to the use of a historian in a honor society--or PTA.
A "high position" would be such as a Relief Society President, one who is
trusted with confidentialities of the members who need charity. And who
presides over the sisters in her ward. She was never this in all her years
in the Church.
Her husband did not change as a result of her "voluntary excommunication"
(she asked to be excommunicated, as in the LDS Church, you remain on the
rolls as a member until you are excommunicated, and she did not want to be
on the rolls), he changed because she was involved in actively denouncing
the church and coming home and excorising the demons out of her children. It
was not a pleasant situation to be in the middle of wherever Judy's mind
would take her.
I am sure this public statement of Ms. Ferrell, will create much
consternation and ill will on the part of Judy.
yes, there is foggy memory on when the semester ended, as it was not a
momentous event.
Ms. Ferrell is an elderly lady, and I feel sorry that she has and will be a
target for Judy's displaced anger.
As I said, I was not there in 1963, but I have been a target and so has my
husband, more times than we would like to remember.
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com...
John Leyden
Let me borrow George Burns' exit line here: "Say goodnight, Martin... Say
goodnight, Howard... Say, goodnight, Judyth." It's all over. You've been
busted. Please have the common decency not to bring this subject up
again. Just go away.
JGL
John McAdams
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>
>
>Let me borrow George Burns' exit line here: "Say goodnight, Martin... Say
>goodnight, Howard... Say, goodnight, Judyth." It's all over. You've been
>busted. Please have the common decency not to bring this subject up
>again. Just go away.
>
In all fairness to Team Judyth, we are the ones who keep bringing it
up.
I think they would have preferred that nothing be said until the could
"pop" the Judyth account with the publication of a book.
Admittedly, Martin's "I have a secret witness" routine was what set it
all off.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Louis
I have gotten to know Mary Ferrell well over many years. In the JFK
assassination research community, Mary is a unique individual -- she
combines nearly total recall with a clear, unbiased passion for seeking
the truth of the matter. With respect to the subjective aspects of the
assassination, Mary has correctly maintained a public stance of
neutrality. She does not base opinion on speculation. Wisely, Mary has
not participated in the public and often rancorous debates within the
research community -- and between the research community and those who
sincerely believe Oswald acted alone (like John McAdams).
In so many ways, Mary has been the "Fountainhead" of the research
community. Her collection of assassination literature is unmatched. Her
command of the facts, allegations, and history of assassination research
is profound. She has selflessly helped dozens of authors and
researchers...all without compensation.
Because Mary graciously helps ALL who seek her council, she has been
wrongly accused of being a partisan for one particular group or another.
Because she assisted the HSCA, she has been wrongly accused of being an
intelligence operative. Those who falsely accuse Mary of bias or hidden
agendas simply do not know her.
After 80 years, Mary's mind is still razor sharp. My respect for Mary
Ferrell is complete. I am privileged to know her.
JUDYTH.
As inferred in Mary Ferrell's e-mail to John McAdams and others (including
myself), I witnessed much of the e-mail traffic within Team Judyth (lead
by Howard Platzman and Martin Shackelford). Over several months, I watch
the amazing story unfold. I kept my "informal" agreement with Howard to
not divulge the particulars of J's story. However, when I heard "drums" in
the research community that there was a new, emerging "witness," I began
to make some inquiries.
I first called Mary Ferrell and asked her what she knew about the
"emerging witness" (not mentioning Judyth by name or any details of what I
knew). Mary -- always far ahead of the field -- already new the substance
of the story, Judyth's name, address, telephone number, occupation, etc.
It seemed that Judyth and her coterie had already peddled her story
amongst the research community soliciting support and endorsements from
others with potential "clout" (e.g., Debra Conway, Peter Dale Scott, and
David Lifton).
What Mary Ferrell has stated about Judyth is totally consistent with what
I know about her. My ONLY difference in Mary Ferrell's assessment of
Judyth is that I am not at all convinced that Judyth -- who apparently
worked for a short time at the Reily Coffee Co., concurrently with Oswald
-- ever "knew" him personally.
RESEARCH 101.
I would like to underscore an important point made earlier (and in spades)
by John Leyden and John McAdams.
When they first learned of the alleged Oswald handwriting samples, Howard
Platzman and Martin Shackelford should have had them subjected to a
handwriting expert and a questioned documents expert. They did not.
Because of the fantastic nature of her story, they should have insisted
that Judyth be subjected to a polygraph examination. They did not. To
confirm many elements of her personal life, they should have interviewed
(among others) her former husband. They did not. Because of Judyth's
emotional extremes and the possibility that she has an "creative memory,"
they should have subjected Judyth to a psychological examination. They
did not.
Martin and Howard should have done the obvious: those simple, basic
(Research 101) things that CBS/60 Minutes HAD to do and did (they have a
legal department and many reputations are at stake) -- and the results of
their (CBS's) efforts speak for themselves: NO SALE.
The lack of financial and human resources -- alleged by Martin and Howard
-- to do the basics is not a sufficient excuse for their lack of "due
diligence." If they truly believed in Judyth, they should have borrowed
the money to have qualified third parties confirm her sanity, veracity,
and aspects of her story that could be investigated.
If fantastic claims cannot be researched and verified — for whatever
reasons — they MUST be held in historical abeyance and labeled with
qualifiers like "alleged" and "unproven." Such stories don't become best
sellers on the non-fiction list. Martin and Howard understand this.
In the beginning, I became interested in part because of my respect for
Martin Shackelford as a research. For months, while doubting the fantastic
elements of Judyth's story (in whole and in part), I held out until CBS/60
Minutes completed their interviews and background investigation of Judyth.
Howard has admitted that he lost his objectivity long ago. Martin has
also, but has not recognized this obvious fact.
Shortly after Judyth's compulsory "interview" CBS/60 Minutes terminated
their interest in Judyth with a very brief e-mail (which I have a copy
of). It came to naught. It was a monumentally wasted effort on my part
and that of so many others.
What we are witnessing is, IMHO, a human tragedy.
Enough, already.
Robert Johnson
: Frank Weimann wanting to know when he was going to sell the
: book, apparently wanting advances.
There must be some mistake here. Howie, Martyn, and Judy have all said
this isn't about money! Surely they wouldn't lie about something like
that?
: blackmail to prod me into endorsing Judyth and her entire story.
: Howard wrote a long email message to me indicating that I must
: go on camera or write a message saying that I believed Judyth's
: story or I would be branded a demented old woman.
Oh my... And I was suppose to feel like a bad person for making comments
about her dog? If that's the case what term should we use for Team Judyth
badgering and threatening a little old grandmother??
No doubt poor Mary's email inbox is now filled with a collection of email
from HP&J. My personal bet on the number from J. within a 24hr timeframe
would be close to a dozen - based on what I know about similar activity on
her part.
So how long before Martyn attempts to hoist the "demented old woman"
defense up the flagpole? Note to Mary - get the paperwork started on an
order of protection and/or a restraining order - I'd trust your grandson's
judgment...
--
---- Robert J. Johnson
Martin Shackelford
For one thing, Mary has posted directly, yet in this case, the post is
by McAdams, alleging the message to be from Mary.
For another, it contradicts things Mary recently said to a close friend,
whom she encouraged to participate in a project supportive of Judyth.
In addition, one of Lifton's close allies has access to Mary's computer
and could send an e-mail under her name.
Further, the "four people" the message says were the only ones with whom
she discussed this issue are all people who have worked behind the
scenes, and sometimes openly, to attack Judyth--the idea that Lifton
kept things "in confidence" is refuted by his posts here.
Lastly, I know of others with whom Mary discussed these matters, so it
is false to say that she only discussed them with the "four."
While it is true that the University library had "The Queen of Spades,"
it wasn't bound in gray, so there would be no reason for Judyth to have
seen it there and then describe it as "a small gray book."
One of the "four" mentioned HAS reported believing Judyth and Lee had an
intimate relationship, based on information never published that was
acquired from Marina.
For these reasons, among others, my best guess is that the message is
not authentic, and that it was manufactured and sent as though it were
from Mary, to McAdams, whom the writer assumed wouldn't spend much time,
if any, questioning its authenticity.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Let me borrow George Burns' exit line here: "Say goodnight, Martin... Say
goodnight, Howard... Say, goodnight, Judyth." It's all over. You've been
busted. Please have the common decency not to bring this subject up
again. Just go away.
JGL
Typical--not even a good try, Leyden.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
should have taken out loans to do what he says should have been done, and
yet he was one of the group at that time and made no effort to do any of
these things which he now says were obvious and demanded to be done.
Hindsight is 20/20, it seems.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
I've always respected Mary Ferrell. I've defended her when others
have attacked her. Anyone who would dismiss her as "a demented old woman"
should have their head examined.
Martin
Robert Johnson
news:3C19A71A...@concentric.net...
: Anyone who would dismiss her as "a demented old woman"
: should have their head examined.
Now the question is - once you confirm that this is what Judy and Howard
attempted to threaten Mary Ferrell with (as she stated) - what are you
going to do about it?
sefirot
have no business discussing the subject.
>From what I see of the other discussions, people are "contributing" to the
understanding of what happened in Dallas so long ago. You are not allowed to
give out the information, so why don't you just quit posting?news:3C199F34...@concentric.net...
sefirot
Judy's. One does not need to know her in 1963 to recognize the pattern. I
really recommend you spending your time getting an advance degree rather
than spending time on the internet, "not discussing" what you are "not
allowed" to discuss. At least the extra schooling will net you a financial
profit.news:3C19A3C9...@concentric.net...
Robert Johnson
: No comment on this until I can determine whether it is authentic.
Any comment now that Debra has stated that she spoke to Mary before and
after she sent the email and has verified that Mary did write this?
---- Robert J. Johnson
John Leyden
Martin began posting about his "witness" in the spring of 2000 and
then on May 5, 2000, he told us indirectly who she was by saying she
worked with Oswald at Reily's. Well, after the Salon article, even
Inspector Closeau could have figured that one out. Several people
identified her as Judyth immediately but no one did much with it until
Sept. 2000 when you asked Shackelford whether Judyth was his "secret
witness." Martin, had two choices at that point. He could have said
"no comment" and stuck to it or do what he did -- alternate "no
comment" post with those that "dribbled out" information. And, of
course, once he started dribbling out information, he only encouraged
further questions. Shackelford just never figure this out. Makes me
wonder if he was defending Judyth, as she seems to think, or trying to
salvage his own reputation as a JFK researcher. Well, it's all
academic now, isn't it!
JGL
John McAdams
>
> Martin, mine was not a trick question. I don't believe for a minute
> that someone other than Mary Ferrell wrote the posting on McAdams'
> newsgroup. That's the point.
>
> This is one of the oddest things I have seen on these very odd
> newsgroups, and, with one exception, it doesn't add up.
>
> Incidentally, there are quite a number of minutes (hours, even days)
> which Mrs. Ferrell hasn't accounted for in Lee Oswald's last year.
> Unfortunately for Judyth's story, none of them had to do with her.
>
> (I wouldn't count on information claimed to have been "aquired" from
> Marina Porter which is supportive of Ms. Baker if I were you. Doesn't
> exist.)
>
> I think you (and I hope Mr Rhiel) will give this some more thought.
> It's never too late. What's at stake is much more important than
> Judyth Baker ever was, even if she had been Oswald's "girlfriend".
>
Note that if Team Judyth gives up on getting this pubished for money,
that doesn't mean it has been "suppressed." It could be put on a web
site, and be like the "Torbitt Document" or the "Gemstone Files" or "The
Taking of America 1-2-3" -- readily available to anybody in the whole
wide world who wants to see it.
> On 14 Dec 2001 07:26:34 GMT, Martin Shackelford
> <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> >No comment on this until I can determine whether it is authentic.
> >For one thing, Mary has posted directly, yet in this case, the post is
> >by McAdams, alleging the message to be from Mary.
> >For another, it contradicts things Mary recently said to a close friend,
> >whom she encouraged to participate in a project supportive of Judyth.
> >In addition, one of Lifton's close allies has access to Mary's computer
> >and could send an e-mail under her name.
> >Further, the "four people" the message says were the only ones with whom
> >she discussed this issue are all people who have worked behind the
> >scenes, and sometimes openly, to attack Judyth--the idea that Lifton
> >kept things "in confidence" is refuted by his posts here.
> >Lastly, I know of others with whom Mary discussed these matters, so it
> >is false to say that she only discussed them with the "four."
> >While it is true that the University library had "The Queen of Spades,"
> >it wasn't bound in gray, so there would be no reason for Judyth to have
> >seen it there and then describe it as "a small gray book."
> >One of the "four" mentioned HAS reported believing Judyth and Lee had an
> >intimate relationship, based on information never published that was
> >acquired from Marina.
> >
> >For these reasons, among others, my best guess is that the message is
> >not authentic, and that it was manufactured and sent as though it were
> >from Mary, to McAdams, whom the writer assumed wouldn't spend much time,
> >if any, questioning its authenticity.
> >
> >Martin
.John
Martin Shackelford
So far, the message's authenticity has been verified only by the four
people mentioned in the message itself, which seems a bit odd. The sudden
flip-flop in Mary's position is also a bit odd. I'm not prepared to assume
that nothing else is going on.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Howard copied the e-mail to me (and others) when he sent it to Mary. It
did NOT threatened to "dismiss her as a demented old woman." At one point,
it indicated concern that Lifton & Co. might take that tack if she came
out in support of Judyth, but Howard definitely made no such threat
against Mary. If he had, I would have apologized to her myself.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
When I need your advice, I'll ask for it.
What business do you have thinking you have any right to tell me
what I can and can't post?
Martin
John Leyden
You sound a lot like some of the coments I've heard over the last 24 hours
from spokesmen in the Arab world about the Bin Ladin tape. They don't
want to believe it so they pretty much have decided they won't.
JGL
John Leyden
> Once I confirm it?
>
> Howard copied the e-mail to me (and others) when he sent it to Mary. It
> did NOT threatened to "dismiss her as a demented old woman." At one point,
> it indicated concern that Lifton & Co. might take that tack if she came
> out in support of Judyth, but Howard definitely made no such threat
> against Mary. If he had, I would have apologized to her myself.
>
> Martin
Have Howard post the e-mail so we can see for ourselves... and please
don't give us that same run around you used re your alleged e-mail to
Bob Baker. The e-mail is Howard's property and he can do what ever he
wants with it -- post it on a billboard in Times Sq. if you've got the
money. BTW, why isn't Howard on here defending himself and Judyth,
too. They seem to have plenty of time to post when they wanted to
accuse unnamed people of "manuscript burning."
JGL
John McAdams
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>For these reasons, among others, my best guess is that the message is
>not authentic, and that it was manufactured and sent as though it were
>from Mary, to McAdams, whom the writer assumed wouldn't spend much time,
>if any, questioning its authenticity.
>
Any comment now?
I assume you've not confirmed that it did come from Mary, right?
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Robert Johnson
: Howard copied the e-mail to me (and others) when he sent it to
: Mary. Itdid NOT threatened to "dismiss her as a demented old
: woman." At one point, it indicated concern that Lifton & Co.
: might take that tack if she came out in support of Judyth
I can't believe Team Judyth is actually going to attempt a form of this
"demented old woman" scenario by trying to disguise it.
The poor old woman didn't really understand what she was reading? The
feeble old thing misunderstood what Judy was saying to her when she simply
showed up recently at her home?
Have you no shame??
Magic Bullet
John Leyden <jleyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e7c2d13.01121...@posting.google.com...
> Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:<3C199F34...@concentric.net>...
>
> You sound a lot like some of the coments I've heard over the last 24
hours
> from spokesmen in the Arab world about the Bin Ladin tape.
They don't> want to believe it so they pretty much have decided they
won't.
A rare moment of glorious insight!
greg
Martin Shackelford
I do know that Mary Ferrell is still very sharp, and have no idea why
her message characterizes Howard's e-mail as it does.
As for posting the e-mail, as your group has demanded in its neverending
push for "more," that would be up to Howard. I don't see any reason that
he should give you guys a damned thing.
Martin
Robert A. Baker III
with 60 minutes.
You keep rallying around "suppressed" information, that you can't give
out. The suggestion on not posting, was definitely in regards to Ms. J's
manuscript. I just think your time could be used more wisely. You
certainly wouldn't want to be in the "hindsight" is always better group,
would you? You are unable to contribute to the group, because of your
confidentiality agreement with Ms. J. So why post in regards to a
"mythical happening"?
Rose
Martin Shackelford
It was "60 Minutes," as I reported, that told us what you posted
wasn't true. Take it up with them.
And aren't you the one who said she wasn't going to post anymore? I
guess that wasn't very credible either.
Martin
John Leyden
> I don't know what happened, Robert.
> I do know that Mary Ferrell is still very sharp, and have no idea why
> her message characterizes Howard's e-mail as it does.
> As for posting the e-mail, as your group has demanded in its neverending
> push for "more," that would be up to Howard. I don't see any reason that
> he should give you guys a damned thing.
>
> Martin
You're the one who told us that Howard's e-mail was significantly
different than what Mary Ferrell said but now you tell us we'll just
have to take that on faith -- i.e., "We don't gotta show you no
steeenkin' badges." BTW, when we are you going to give us your final
answer on the authenticity of the M.F. post? We're waiting.
JGL
Robert Johnson
: And aren't you the one who said she wasn't going to post anymore?
Everyone has the right to change their mind Martin. Many that once
respected you as a researcher are hoping the same will happen in your
case.
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Robert Johnson
: Don't hold your breath, Robert.
You don't have to be concerned on my account. I never had any respect for
you to lose. I don't mean that in demeaning way. I simply had no reason to
have any idea who you were or what your reputation may have been. None of
that matters now.
--
---- Robert J. Johnson
:
:
Martin Shackelford
Martin
John Leyden
> No comment yet.
>
> So far, the message's authenticity has been verified only by the four
> people mentioned in the message itself, which seems a bit odd. The sudden
> flip-flop in Mary's position is also a bit odd. I'm not prepared to assume
> that nothing else is going on.
>
> Martin
Your tactic here is reminiscent of the one you used to try to explain
away "Judyth's Account" when it first showed up here in the NG on
10/29/01 -- deny, deny, deny:
10/29/01: "It wasn't written by Judyth."
10/29: "I don't know who you think wrote this post but it wasn't
Judyth. It appears to be a version of an uncorrected early outline of
some of the documentation."
11/01: I stated the outline was not written by Judyth. That remains
true."
Gradually, you became less militant and took a new tack, telling
McAdams on 12/09: "You have been told repeatedly that it was an early
beginning, only half of what was in the completed version, and yet you
continue to act as though it were a complete document, or a summary of
the 'best evidence.' Both assumptions, once again, are dead wrong.
The outline that has been 'shopped around' isn't the one you have."
Yeah, but it was the work of Judyth (with Platzman), wasn't it.
Wouldn't we save a lot of time here in the NG if you would just cut
out the Shackelford Shuffle on every issue? It doesn't fool anyone
anymore anyway.
>
> JGL
>
Martin Shackelford
Howard. You can wait as long as you want, and it still won't be by
Judyth. This is another of your phony non-contradictory "contradictions"
posts. As for the "Ferrell" message, I'm not saying she didn't write it,
nor am I saying she did. I'm waiting for reliable confirmation. It's an
approach you might want to consider more often.
Martin
John Leyden
> No, it wasn't the work of Judyth. It was a first tentative draft by
> Howard. You can wait as long as you want, and it still won't be by
> Judyth. This is another of your phony non-contradictory "contradictions"
> posts. As for the "Ferrell" message, I'm not saying she didn't write it,
> nor am I saying she did. I'm waiting for reliable confirmation. It's an
> approach you might want to consider more often.
>
> Martin
I think it's time for Howard to come forward and defend himself. He
certainly can't want people thinking he wrote that dreadful, obtuse,
incoherent drivel all by himself. Didn't he tell us he has a PhD and
has spent much of his career writing & editing? This certainly is not
something he would want to circulate with his resume. I mean he's
already fallen on his sword re the Cancun thing. How much can you ask
of one man? Actually, the outline, which circulated with both names
on it, reflects both Judyth & Howard. I could go thru it with a
pencil and circle who did what. Try again, Shackelford.
JGL
Martin Shackelford
Howard wrote it. It was a draft, not intended for wide circulation.
First drafts are often a bit rough. So what?
Martin
Altasrecrd
>Howard wrote it. It was a draft, not intended for wide circulation.
>First drafts are often a bit rough. So what?
i really find this to be as disingenuous a statement as is possible.
To me, this is sort of a way of making Howard the fall guy for any
problems that might surface later. "Oh, Howard wrote that, he must have
been mistaken." Except of course that the outline says by Judyth and
Howard. And Judyth never said there was a mistake in the outline. Indeed,
she talked endlessly about every point in it and more.
The outline posted was not a "rough draft". It was *the* draft, and the
one that was sent out to researchers for months, and the one sent to 60
Minutes.
There should be no "rough draft" when it comes to a witness statement.
Judyth's two soldiers are willing to fall on their sword and spin for her
no matter what.
Buyer beware.
David S. Lifton
Please tell us this whole thing is a joke--a joke that simply got out
of control.
Every time I read this Judyth "outline", I alternate between anger
that you and Platzman would attempt to promulgate this nonsense, pity
that Judyth is such a fantast--and then, somewhere around the
periphery of my consciousness, is the idea that maybe, just maybe,
this started out as a practical joke. And then somehow it got out of
control.
Is there any possibility that is really what is going on here?
A practical joke which got out of control and ended up being your own
personal Bay of Pigs? (Because that's the closest connection that I
can see between this "outline" and Cuba.)
Honesty if the best policy, Martin.
Fess up. Just tell us it was supposed to be a joke. It may not make
the Comedy Channel, but at least then we'll understand.
DSL
John Leyden
> No, it wasn't the work of Judyth. It was a first tentative draft by
> Howard. You can wait as long as you want, and it still won't be by
> Judyth. This is another of your phony non-contradictory "contradictions"
> posts. As for the "Ferrell" message, I'm not saying she didn't write it,
> nor am I saying she did. I'm waiting for reliable confirmation. It's an
> approach you might want to consider more often.
>
> Martin
Someone who apparently has grown of your bobbing & weaving on this -- no,
not Lifton or one of his friends who has access to other people's
computers & knows their passwords, etc.-- has sent me a copy of "Deadly
Alliance" by Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D." So knock it
off.
BTW, what "deadly alliance" are we talking about? In a 3/3/2000 post, you
stated: "Oswald remembered Ferrie very well and talked about him to
friends [Judyth?]. He resumed their acquaintance in the summer of 1963
and they worked together on a few things. Shaw was involved with them,
but only peripherally, and [emphasis supplied] NONE OF THEM WERE PLANNING
TO ASSASSINATION KENNEDY." Wait a minute, wasn't that "Plan B?"
JGL
John McAdams
I now have a Microsoft Word copy of the draft as it was sent out by
Team Judyth. It doesn't look "rough." It looks like some work went
into it.
It certainly appears to be, and Martin has admitted it was, something
to send to publishers and TV producers.
I really don't think the "carelessness" excuse can be made for
misstatements in the draft.
.John
--
Martin Shackelford
doesn't.
As noted many times before, the outline was an early draft, and was
written by Howard. Nor does this make him a "fall guy."
Matt raises a red herring by saying the outline was accurate. Of course
it was. It wasn't, however, complete. It was a beginning, not a final
document.
It was not the final draft provided to "60 Minutes."
No one is "falling on swords." Matt is wielding a bludgeon.
He is right about one thing--and it should apply to his post:
"Buyer beware."
Martin
Martin Shackelford
The outline posted on the newsgroup was written by Howard.
All the verbal acrobatics in the world won't change that.
Give it up.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Do you never tire of setting up and knocking down strawmen?
Of course "some work went into" the initial outline. 18 pages
doesn't write itself. Your error is to continue to pretend that it was
complete, or "the best evidence," or some such nonsense.
A more complete summary went to "60 Minutes" and others. Just
because you've read it, don't assume that's all anyone else read.
No one has claimed the outline was done "carelessly" or that it
contains "misstatements" except for your little attack team.
Martin
John Leyden
> I don't care, Leyden, who has sent you what.
> The outline posted on the newsgroup was written by Howard.
> All the verbal acrobatics in the world won't change that.
> Give it up.
>
> Martin
>
JGL
Martin Shackelford
nonsense, and I'll never endorse it.
Martin
John Leyden
> Sorry that I'm not "caving" and endorsing your false theory. It's total
> nonsense, and I'll never endorse it.
>
> Martin
And that's what this whole protracted song & dance is all about, isn't it:
Martin Shackelford refusing to admit he's been wrong! You still think you
can survive this.
Martin Shackelford
something I don't believe isn't the same as "refusing to admit he's been
wrong." One could also say that you are "refusing to admit you are
wrong," as you haven't done so. Think about it.
Martin
Judyth V. Baker
DRIVING A WHITE VAN WHO CANNOT PRESENTLY BE LOCATED, THE NAME OF
'JUDYTH VARY BAKER' HAS ALWAYS BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH GOOD DEEDS AND
HONEST REPORTAGE IN THE PAST. I WILL NOT ALLOW MY GOOD NAME TO BE
CARELESSLY SULLIED BY OTHERS. I WORKED FOR YEARS AS AN HONEST
NEWSPAPER REPORTER WHO COULD NOT BE BOUGHT OFF, AND WAS KNOWN FOR
GOOD, HONEST REPORTAGE. AS SUCH, I MUST MAKE CORRECTIVE COMMENTS
WITHIN THE RECENT MESSAGE POSTED BY JOHN MCADAMS WHICH APPEARS TO HAVE
BEEN WRITTEN BY MARY FERRELL.===JUDYTH VARY BAKER===j
ohn.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
>
> <Quote on>
>
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>
> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
> by my careless words or deeds.
===But she decides to do this anyway. Correct?=====
I have tried to refrain from talking
> about Judyth Vary Baker and her alleged association with Lee Harvey
> Oswald for more than a year now - afraid that I might say or do
> something that would hurt her or her family.
====JUDYTH RESPONDS: Mary Ferrell has been very kind to me. But
kindness that lasts over a year has to have more behind it than that.
Is it possible that Mary Ferrell, known for her sharp wit and her
sharp tingue when necessary, would actually wait an entire year
before speaking up? Could it be posssible, instead, that people may
have changed her opinion, influencing her through their tales to
change her mind? Would she indeed wait an entire year before deciding
to speak up if she always disbelieved me? HOW did she get so close to
me and members of my family to begin with, if she had these
reservations at the start?=============
I have been uncertain as
> to her motives
===JUDYTH: Mary Ferrell said she believed my motive was only to clear
LHO's name. This has always been the only motive.=====
and preferred to believe that she was delusional
=====JUDYTH: This is a word Mr. Robert Chapman had been feeding Mary
for some time. He, Lifton and Conway kept up a steady barrage that I
was delusional. This is Mr. Lifton's favorite term for me. Mary never
used it, and in fact, sheand I exchanged private emails which stated
the opposite. She never said any such word to other persons, such as
Martin Shackelford and Howard Platzman, at any time. Indeed, Mary
shared with me some of her innermost thoughts and feelings. I own
items she gave me of a highly personal nature.====
and,
> although I believed she had actually known and probably worked for a
> short time with Lee Harvey Oswald, her "affair" with Lee Oswald was
> all something she dreamed up.
=====JUDYTH: Mary has gone from 'believe' in her messages to me to
'believed' in this message to the world. She darn well KNOWS I knew
LHO. I contended that he was a good lover, for example, and MF
responded that once Marina oswald actually admitted it, as well. MF
also knows I knew how Marina Oswald acted. and the first thing she
ever said to me in person was, yes, I still looked like Marina, though
Marina was skinny as a toothpick.=====
>
> Judyth came to my home more than a year ago, late in the
> afternoon in November 2000.
==Error. I first saw Mary in october. Lifton, Chapman, etc. have read
a stolen email where this error was accidentally placed. It was
somehow copied here? Mary and i first met in October. WHO plced this
error here? Or is Mary's much-vaunted memory failing her?=========
A charming young woman named Debbee
> Reynolds accompanied Judyth. Debbee was and is an employee of
> American Airlines. Debbee had managed to obtain free transportation
> on American Airlines for Judyth to come from Layfayette, Louisiana, to
> visit her sister, Mrs. Tony (Lynda) Bauer, in Dallas.
===JUDYTH: FALSE. The flight cost $50 or maybe $60-- far below
average, but not free. What has happened to Mary's memory? Although my
sister lives in dallas, my ONLY purpose at this time was to meet Mary
Ferrell. My sister did not accompany me at this time because she was
busy at work. I, myself, made a one-day trip specifically to meet
Mary. What is this about coming to visit my sister? Nice but not the
reason for this trip.===========
>
> One of the first things Judyth did when entering my home was
> look at a set of the 26 volumes in shelves adjacent to my front door.
> Judyth said, "Oh, is that what they look like? I've seen pictures of
> them but I've never actually seen them before. I've never read
> anything. I just know everything that happened because I knew Lee."
====JUDYTH: ERROR. I saw the Warren Commission Report bound with the
26 volumes.One the same shelf was a collection of more books about the
case than i had ever before seen in my life. The entire room was
filkled with them, making it difficult to even find a place to sit
down. every surface was stacked with books. I made appropriate
comments about this amazing sight. I did mention i hadn;t read any of
these books and i still haven;t read very much. Mary knew from
previous correspondence that I had read Marina and Lee and Oswald's
Tale, and by now i had Grodens (sp?) book given to me, which at this
time, though, was in the possession of Sixty Minutes. It is true that
I have frequently commented that I am a witness and do not need to
read what people have written about LHO in New orleans because i had
been there with him most of that time. Soimeho0w, this has been
twisted around. Also, these words, saying, "Oh," etc. sound like
something Mr. David Lifton would write. It is difficult to believe
that Mary Ferrell would make a blanket statement that I said at this
time, "I've never read anything," because I have emails proving I had
told her otherwise. I had especially complained about the lies in
MARINA AND LEE. Has Mary's memory failed her on this account,
too?=====Please forgive any typos...I am not feeling
well.====jvb======
> END PART ONE OF COMMENTS ON MARY FERRELL'S STATEMENTS POSTED BY DOLT-JOHN, ER,SORRY-- DOT-JOHN, McADAMS.
============================================================================
============================================
> She seated herself on the floor close to my feet and started
> telling all about her wonderful love affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.
> She told how she met him in April of 1963 in a New Orleans or
> Metairie, Louisiana, post office, while standing at the General
> Delivery window. She said she and her soon-to-be husband, Robert
> Baker, had chosen to write to each other through General Delivery
> using code names. One of the names used was similar to Rorke and
> either she or Lee misunderstood and thought the name being used was
> Alexander Rorke. Judyth said it had been planned that Alexander Rorke
> would pick up Lee Oswald in a plane in some part of the Yucatan,
> Mexico. She was so startled that she dropped a rolled-up newspaper
> that was under her arm and Lee Oswald stooped and retrieved it. When
> he handed it to her, she thanked him in Russian.
>
> I asked her why she would use the Russian language to a man
> she didn't know standing in a line at the post office in Louisiana.
> She claimed that Dr. Oschner and his colleagues had insisted that she
> study Russian and become fluent in the language. She never gave a
> coherent answer about why she was instructed to learn Russian. She
> did ramble off several portions of sentences that did not make sense.
> She said, in effect, that she was "thinking" in Russian. (I studied
> three years of High School Latin, four years of High School Spanish
> and, following the assassination, I used every available text book,
> audio aide and visual aides to intensively study Russian for one year.
> I was only able to think in English at the end of that year.)
>
> When talking about Alexander Rorke, she said she was to meet
> Lee and Rorke in Cancun, Mexico, following the assassination. She had
> a book that she claimed David Ferrie had given to her to use as her
> pass into Eglin Air Force Base in Florida where she was to be put
> aboard a plane and flown to Mexico to meet with Lee. "Eglin Air Force
> Base" was stamped on the spine of the book.
>
> I questioned Judyth about her first meeting with Oswald and
> the exact date it occurred. She claimed it was within a day or two of
> his arrival in New Orleans in April 1963. She also claimed she
> accompanied him to visit his father's grave but never gave an exact
> location of the grave. (According to the Warren Commission's
> investigation, Lee visited his aunt, Mrs. Arthur A. P. Alice Barre, on
> St. Charles Avenue in New Orleans, to learn where his father was
> buried. Judyth did not answer me when I asked if she was with him
> when he visited his aunt.)
>
> At one point, Judyth said, "I can tell you where Lee was on
> the two occasions when you don't know where he was." I asked her how
> she knew that there were two periods when I didn't know where he was.
> She stuttered a bit and finally said that Martin Shakleford had
> questioned her from my chronologies. However, she never gave any
> explanation of when those two periods were nor where she knew that Lee
> was during the two periods.
>
> She said 60 Minutes had intended to film her story but some
> unnamed persons had stopped 60 Minutes. She seemed to blame David
> Lifton because she said Lifton's book would not be published if her
> book were published. She seemed to think Debra Conway had some part
> in her dismissal from 60 Minutes because Debra would no longer have
> Lancers if Judyth's book were published.
>
> Judyth said the most ironic thing about the whole thing was
> that CBS made the decision not to use her in a film on Lee's birthday,
> October 18th, a month before her visit to me.
>
> She begged me to help her get her book published. I told her
> I would have to read the book first but finally agreed to write a note
> to a friend of mine in New York, Frank Weimann of the Literary Group.
> On November 27th, I wrote a short note to Frank Weimann on a scrap of
> paper. I have since learned that Judyth has circulated Xerox copies
> of that note as proof that I endorse her story.
>
> My note read: "Nov. 27, 2000 Dear Frank, I think you
> should take a look at this woman's story. I believe she is credible
> and I believe her story will sell. Best regards, Mary Ferrell" I
> later learned that she placed a small photo of herself in a pose that
> looked very much like an early photo of Marina on the note before she
> sent it to Frank. I later asked Frank to make a copy of Judyth's
> book for me since she refused to let me look at the book. I have
> never seen any portion of the book and I now have no desire to see it.
>
> She and Howard Platzman immediately started sending notes to
> Frank Weimann wanting to know when he was going to sell the book,
> apparently wanting advances. Frank finally sent the whole book back
> to them and refused to work with them. Frank apologized to me and I
> told him I was surprised that he had tolerated them as long as he had.
> Frank told me that the book would have sold but needed rewriting,
> which they refused to do.
>
> Until now, I have discussed this matter with only four
> people: Robert Chapman, David Lifton, Debra Conway and Louis Girdler.
> They have all kept my disclosures in confidence because I begged them
> not to do anything that might cause Judyth to harm herself.
>
> It has now reached the point where I believe Howard Platzman
> and Judyth are using what they think is a form of blackmail to prod me
> into endorsing Judyth and her entire story. Howard wrote a long email
> message to me indicating that I must go on camera or write a message
> saying that I believed Judyth's story or I would be branded a demented
> old woman. Judyth came to visit me, unannounced, Monday night and she
> said almost the same words that Howard had used. Then she brought up
> a name from my past - the name of a woman I had not even thought of in
> almost 50 years. I asked her where she got that name and she said,
> "Carol Anne told me." I immediately said to my son, "Judyth is
> leaving. Will you see her to the door." Jimmy escorted her to the
> door. I called Carol Anne and told her what had happened. Carol Anne
> became almost hysterical and said, "Mother, you know I never said
> that." I explained that I had not believed she had said it. Carol
> Anne said, "Mother, those people act like they are crazy." My son
> Jimmy later said he thinks they act like they might be dangerous.
>
> I want to make it clear that I have never believed Judyth's
> "story." I have believed that she knew Lee Harvey Oswald, either as a
> co-worker or as an employee she remembered after the assassination. I
> have NEVER believed the story of the mad, passionate love affair. I
> can account for almost every minute of Lee's life from the time he
> joined the Marine Corps until the day of his death. There was
> absolutely no time for nights of passionate love and Russian poetry
> reading. I do not believe that they had sex in the back of trucks in
> Adrian Alba's garage. At the very most, Judyth knew Lee a total of
> less than five months. She claims that she talked to Lee just two
> days before the assassination by way of a Mafia wire-service phone
> line. I do not believe this.
>
> Judyth claims that Lee introduced her to David Ferrie. She
> claims that Ferrie introduced her to "Sparky" Rubenstein. She claims
> that Lee told her that Carlos Marcello called Jack Ruby when Lee was a
> child in Fort Worth and asked Ruby to keep an eye on Lee. She claims
> that she last saw Ruby in New Orleans in June 1963.
>
> She claims that as soon as she arrived in New Orleans, in
> April 1963, Dr. Oschner got her an apartment where prostitutes were
> living and the place was immediately raided and everyone taken to jail
> except Judyth. She says Lee got her another apartment. They then
> lived close to each other and would ride the bus from Reily out to the
> end of the line and ride back so they could sit together.
>
> Her first job, after arriving in New Orleans, was as a
> waitress in a hamburgher restaurant in Metairie near Carlos Marcello's
> Town and Country Motel. She speaks very familiarly of Carlos Marcello
> and says that Lee acted as a courier for Carlos and Lee's uncle, Dutz
> Murret.
>
> Her story of Lee's reading to her from the small gray book,
> The Queen of Spaces, did startle me because I had seen either this
> book or a replica of it in Ruth Paine's living room two or three years
> following the assassination. Judyth claimed that the library in
> Lafayette, Louisiana, did not have the 26 volumes of the Warren
> Commission's work and did not have a copy of The Queen of Spades.
> When I asked her if she had tried the university library where she
> worked, she said they had nothing. Louis Girdler called the
> university library and talked to a woman named Sandy who worked there
> and they had everything on the assassination and also had a copy of
> Pushkin's play, The Queen of Spades.
>
> Judyth tells a fantastic story about the man who wrote
> Andersonville - MacKinlay Kantor. She claims that she would walk with
> him through a garden, holding a tape recorder and Kantor would dictate
> into the recorder. She says that Kantor "fell in love" with her. She
> claims she was still a teenager when this happened.
>
> She claims she wrote to Bertrand Russell about her reluctance
> to have sex with Lee because she and he were both married at the time.
> She says that Russell wrote to her that she must not let anything hold
> her back if they were in love. They must have sex. Joan Mellen was
> married to Ralph Schoenman for a number of years. Schoenman was the
> top aide to Bertrand Russell during the last years of Russell's life.
> Schoenman told Joan that during the period Judyth claims this happened
> Russell was not even able to read his own mail and he NEVER wrote such
> a letter.
>
> I could go on and on for pages about her truly incredible
> stories. I just want to emphasize that I have never told her I
> believed she and Lee had a romantic relationship. I have assured her
> that I do believe she knew him. I can't explain her knowledge about
> the book I saw in Ruth Paine's house between Christmas and New Year's
> of 1967. I believe the little book was unique and I know that Judyth
> described it perfectly. With few exceptions, Judyth's accounts of her
> relationship with Lee could have been concocted from things that have
> been published. She has repeatedly said that she loves me because I
> want to clear Lee's name and reputation. I have only said that I do
> not believe that Lee planned, executed and covered up the
> assassination alone. I am not at all certain that Lee's name and
> reputation can be "cleared."
Judyth V. Baker
TO MARY FERRELL (IT PROBABLY IS MF'S, BUT HAS IT BEEN DOCTORED?) BY
DR. JOHN MCADAMS.====
john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
>
> <Quote on>
>
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>
> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
> by my careless words or deeds>
===SNIP=======
She seated herself on the floor close to my feet and started
> telling all about her wonderful love affair with Lee Harvey Oswald.
===JUDYTH: I like to sit on the floor. Mary Ferrell noted this and
suddenly said, "You are sitting on the floor? Why?" I answered that I
liked to do this. "That is exactly what Marina Oswald would do. She
would sit at my feet just as you are doing," Mary answered. "You know,
I knew her for years, until recently, when the LaFontaines and Robert
Harris took her away from me. I have to say," Mary added, "That you
also look so much like her." I was very happy when she said that,
because so much time had passed. "Lee often said the same thing," I
finally replied. I felt very shy and put my head down.
Mary leaned toward me, with eagerness, and asked me,
"Please--Judyth--TELL me more about you and Lee."
She did not say 'lee Harvey oswald.' She said 'Lee', which made me
feel much more secure. That is how that conversation began. I write
this in the same way i would have as a newspaper reporter, and I am
using my notes which I wrote down from this first meeting as a
reference. JVB=========================
> She told how she met him in April of 1963 in a New Orleans or
> Metairie, Louisiana, post office, while standing at the General
> Delivery window.
===CORRECTION BY JUDYTH: I SAID WE MET APRIL 26, 1963 AT A POST
POFFICE SO NEW THAT THEY HAD JUST PLANTED THE GRASS OUTSIDE. I COULD
NO LONGER REMEBER ITS ADDRESS. I STILL DO NOT KNOW ITS ADDRESS. Where
did Mary get this additional statement from?=======
She said she and her soon-to-be husband, Robert
> Baker, had chosen to write to each other through General Delivery
> using code names. One of the names used was similar to Rorke and
> either she or Lee misunderstood and thought the name being used was
> Alexander Rorke.
====ELUCIDATION BY JUDYTH: Robert asked me to write to him as if my
name was RALEIGH ROARKE . When i asked at general delivery if a letter
had arrived for ROARKE, from a Robert A. Baker, Lee, who was standing
behind me, later said he heard me mention the names of both 'Rorke';
and 'Robert A. Baker'and this intrigued him. It turned out that Alex
Rorke had that very day --April 26--perhaps been on some flight over
Cuba out of Miami, and secret service agent Robert A. Baker --who was
in Miami-- had been in contact with both Lee and with Rorke earlier in
April or perhaps in March--and there were other indications that Lee
had been in Florida recently. I had just arrived from Florida. there
is more, but my self-apppointed committee of censors don;t want this
book to say how much more. It now turns pout that this same committee
of censors happen to be Mary Ferrell's very closest friends. Mary
promised me that she would never betray my confidence and that i could
trust her never to repeat any of this to debra Conway or to Robert
Chapman, who were in constant contact with Mary. sadly, i did believe
her, because she was so kind to me.==========
Judyth said it had been planned that Alexander Rorke
> would pick up Lee Oswald in a plane in some part of the Yucatan,
> Mexico.
===JUDYTH: MARY FERREL MAKES YET ANOTHER ERROR. MUCH LATER, there was
a plan to use Alex Rorke to take me to the Yucatan-- approxiumately
where Belize is located, but easily found just by remembering the
present-day locarion of cancun. though it was primitive at that time,
which was plainly stated in the book. be that as it may, there was no
mention of such a trip at this meeting. Further, Rorke was supposed to
fly ME from Floirda to the Yucatan, but we heard he got murdered. this
is all messed up and nothing like what was discussed. What has
happened to Mary's memory?==========
She was so startled that she dropped a rolled-up newspaper
> that was under her arm and Lee Oswald stooped and retrieved it. When
> he handed it to her, she thanked him in Russian.
=====ERROR. i have plainly repeated what happened her to many readers.
As i was HANDED the letter, i dropped the rolled-up paper that had a
coded message printed in it: "JARYO...nice here..." etc. It was kissed
with lipstick and LHO noticed it, he later told me. I WAS NEVER
STARTLED BY ANYTHING. He picked it up and handed it to me and I said
thanks, comrade, In Russian, Today, I say "TUSEN TAK" in Norwegian. It
was a habit i had and have always kept, ask any of my friends, to say
'thank you' in various foreign languages. ======
>
> I asked her why she would use the Russian language to a man
> she didn't know standing in a line at the post office in Louisiana.
> She claimed that Dr. Oschner and his colleagues had insisted that she
> study Russian and become fluent in the language.
===ERROR. Dr. Ochsner was never involved in this matter. What has
happened to Mary's memory? At Manatee High School, Col. Philip V.
Doyle and some of his right-wing military friends insisted it was wise
i learn Russian and arranged for me to take a free course in
conversational Russian at (then) Manatee jr. College. I have the
textbook and its provenance is secure, stamped, fulkl of my
handwriting and dates of what to study for ongoing classes. I also
have another textr showing ongoing work i was doing when I went to
college. NOBODY EVER INSISTED I BECOME FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE. I HAVE
NEVER STATED THAT I WAS EVER FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE, OR THAT FLUENCY
WAS EVER REQUIRED. BUT I KNEW ENOUGH RUSSIAN TO BE ABLE TO TALK A
LITTLE TO LEE WHEN WE WERE IN PUBLIC, AND NOBODY COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT
WE SAID TO EACH OTHER.=====
She never gave a
> coherent answer about why she was instructed to learn Russian.
===ERROR: Mary was given the same information that you see
above.======
She
> did ramble off several portions of sentences that did not make sense.
> She said, in effect, that she was "thinking" in Russian. (I studied
> three years of High School Latin, four years of High School Spanish
> and, following the assassination, I used every available text book,
> audio aide and visual aides to intensively study Russian for one year.
> I was only able to think in English at the end of that year.)
=====ERROR: I never, ever said I was 'thinking' in Russian.
Ridiculous. What i did say was that 'thank you' was something I said
automatically in Russian to my friends and sometimes others,
automatically. I still do this today, as all my close friends surely
know, only today i use the Norwegian term, "Tusen Tak.' I quit using
Russian in 1963 after the assassination. Robert never heardn me say a
word in it. Mary and I actually bantered a few p[hrases back and
forth, that was all. I could tell that her russian was very rusty,
just like mine. She told me how long she'd studied it and how much she
had forgotten, and i told her i had not studied it that long and had
forgotten a lot as well.======
>
> When talking about Alexander Rorke, she said she was to meet
> Lee and Rorke in Cancun, Mexico, following the assassination.
====ERROR. I said that Rorke had been murdered and unknown person
would now be flying me to Mexico,, which frightened
me.===================
She had
> a book that she claimed David Ferrie had given to her to use as her
> pass into Eglin Air Force Base in Florida where she was to be put
> aboard a plane and flown to Mexico to meet with Lee. "Eglin Air Force
> Base" was stamped on the spine of the book.
===TRUE. At last a sentence i do not have to correct. it's about
time.======
>
=================================END OF PART TWO====PLEASE FORGIVE ANY
TYOS,,,I AM NOT FEELING WELL. JVB.=======================
Judyth V. Baker
NECESSARY CORRECTIONS. Question: WHAT happened to Mary's
memory?==========j
ohn.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
>
> <Quote on>
>
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>
> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
> by my careless words or deeds.<snip
> I questioned Judyth about her first meeting with Oswald and
> the exact date it occurred. She claimed it was within a day or two of
> his arrival in New Orleans in April 1963.
===ERROR: I never claimed to know when Lee arrived precisely in New
Orleans. I met Lee either April 25 or April 26. it could not have been
later than April 26. In general, I use this date. Lee deliberately
rode a bus out to Royal Castle on Airline to talk to me. I was
waitressing because I needed money. i had come out to New Orleans two
weeks early and supposed ochsner did not know i was here yet. I was
out of money, after paying rent, at the "Y" so had taken a waitressing
job. It was awful for somebody as shy as i was at that time.====
She also claimed she
> accompanied him to visit his father's grave but never gave an exact
> location of the grave. (According to the Warren Commission's
> investigation, Lee visited his aunt, Mrs. Arthur A. P. Alice Barre, on
> St. Charles Avenue in New Orleans, to learn where his father was
> buried. Judyth did not answer me when I asked if she was with him
> when he visited his aunt.)
====ERROR: I told Mary plainly, and i also have plainly inn the book,
in every draft, that Lee had me wait across the street when he went
inside a house to talk to his aunt. He never told me the name of his
aunt. We rode a streetcar and/or bus to everywhere we went that day. i
am notoriously unable to figure out where I am in any town--ask my
sister, who was socked that i could not remember how to get to her
house two minutes away--no way could i remember wqhere the grave was
located among all those cemeteries tofday. BUT I DID SAY I HAD BEEN
OUTSIDE WHEN LEE WENT TO FIND THE LOCATION OF HIS FATHER'S GRAVE. THIS
IS IN THE BOOK WHICH WAS WRITTEN BEFORE I EVER MET MARY FERRELL. The
last time we ever met, MARY ASKED ME THE NAME OF THE AUNT, AND I SAID
I DID NOT KNOW IT. She never asked me if I visited the aunt with
Lee.=====
>
> At one point, Judyth said, "I can tell you where Lee was on
> the two occasions when you don't know where he was."
===JUDYTH:This was my second-last visit with Mary, about five weeks
ago. I told her that on May 4 and 5 I had provided data in the book
which was I had been recently told was not in Mary's chronology. I did
NOT have mary's chronology or access to it. Mary said to me, "Well, at
least i will make sure you now have it!" and she painfully made her
way to her new computer in its new little room in her apartment there
at Vickery Towers. Mary placed every LHO chronology file she had on a
red disk, one by one, for me. "Now, my dear," she said,"You have the
chronology." And sure enough, there for May 4 and 5, it can be seen
that Lee's whereabouts were unknown. But not to me, as the book
plainly reveals. I own that red disk with Mary's handwriting on it. i
reported the date when mary gave me the disk to both Martin and
Howard, as well as to others.===========
I asked her how
> she knew that there were two periods when I didn't know where he was.
> She stuttered a bit and finally said that Martin Shakleford had
> questioned her from my chronologies.
====ERROR: I told her a long time ago about these two days. At some
time in the past, Shackelford had finally verified that the dates fit
well with Mary's chronology, which i had never seen. but I did not
even know HOW they fit 'well.' martin is not much on details. he might
have said more, I don;t think so..===
However, she never gave any
> explanation of when those two periods were nor where she knew that Lee
> was during the two periods.
==ERROR: OF ALL THINGS, THESE TWO DAYS WERE PIVOTAL IN ESTABLISHING
THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN LEE AND ME. In fact, besides cancer research
documents, this material about the raids is always the first I ever
show to anyone. Mary saw it a year earlier. WHAT has happened to
Mary's memory? MARY; I TOLD YOU ABOUT THE RAIDS THE FIRST TIME WE
MET.=======
> She said 60 Minutes had intended to film her story but some
> unnamed persons had stopped 60 Minutes. She seemed to blame David
> Lifton because she said Lifton's book would not be published if her
> book were published. She seemed to think Debra Conway had some part
> in her dismissal from 60 Minutes because Debra would no longer have
> Lancers if Judyth's book were published.
====THIS IS CERTAINLY MY BELIEF, ESPECIALLY AFTER GETTING FEEDBACK
FROM INSIDERS AT SIXTY MINUTES.======
>
> Judyth said the most ironic thing about the whole thing was
> that CBS made the decision not to use her in a film on Lee's birthday,
> October 18th, a month before her visit to me.
====I AM SENSITIVE ABOUT LEE'S BIRTHDAY BECAUSE I CARED ABOUT HIM.
WHAT IS STRANGE ABOUT NOTICING IT WAS HIS BIRTHDAY?===
> She begged me to help her get her book published. I told her
> I would have to read the book first but finally agreed to write a note
> to a friend of mine in New York, Frank Weimann of the Literary Group.
===ERROR: I HAD THE BOOK MANUSCRIPT WITH ME, BUT IN INCOMPLETE FORM. I
CARRIED THAT MANUSCRIPT BACK AND FORTH TO MARY'S HOUSE SEVEN OR EIGHT
TIMES AND SHE NEVER ONICE BROUGHT IT UP AGAIN. THE MANUSCRIPT WAS SENT
TO FRANK. MARY COULD HAVE ASKED HIM TO SEND A COPY TO HER IF SHE
REALLY WISHED, AND I HAD NO OBJECTIONS. I DID NOT HAVE A COMPLETE
COPY--ONLY HOWARD DID. MARY KNEW I DID NOT HAVE A COMPLETE COPY. I
DID NOT NEED A COPY OF MY OWN BOOK BECAUSE IT WAS MY HISTORY, ALL IN
MY MEMORY, SO TO ME IT WAS NOT THAT IMPORTANT. I COULDN'T 'LOSE' MY
BOOK--IT WAS IN MY MEMORY. AFTER ALL. SO I DO NOT CARRY AROUND
COMPLETE MANUSCRIPTS. HOWEVER, I HAD AN INCOMPLETE MANUSCRIPT SHE
COULD LOOK AT AT ANY TIME. SHE NEVER INDICATED BUT ONE TIME THAT SHE
WANTED TO READ THE BOOK. SHE EVEN SAID, 'YOU ARE BETTER THAN THE
MANUSCRIPT, YOU ARE THE LIVING WITNESS.'=====
=============================================END OF PART
THREE========please excuse typos and caps...I am not feeling
well....======================
Judyth V. Baker
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
> <Quote on>
>
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>
> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
> by my careless words or deeds.<snip
> She begged me to help her get her book published.
==I SURE DID.======
I told her
> I would have to read the book first
=====ERROR: MARY FERRELL NEVER STATED THIS. SHE ASKED TO READ THE BOOK
AND I SAID I HAD A COPY, BUT IT WAS INCOMPLETE. I BROUGHT THIS COPY
AGAIN AND AGAIUN TO HER, BUT SHE NEVER ASKED TO READ IT AGAIN.========
but finally agreed to write a note
> to a friend of mine in New York, Frank Weimann of the Literary Group.
> On November 27th, I wrote a short note to Frank Weimann on a scrap of
> paper. I have since learned that Judyth has circulated Xerox copies
> of that note as proof that I endorse her story.
=====CORRECTION: I ASKED MARY FERRELL'S PERMISSION TO USE HER NOTE
WITH OTHER PUBLISHERS AND WITH PERSONS SUCH AS REPORTERS, ETC. AND SHE
EVENTUALLY GAVE ME POERMISSION TO DO SO. I placed on the internet
that very day she said it was okay to do so.========
>
> My note read: "Nov. 27, 2000 Dear Frank, I think you
> should take a look at this woman's story. I believe she is credible
> and I believe her story will sell. Best regards, Mary Ferrell" I
> later learned that she placed a small photo of herself in a pose that
> looked very much like an early photo of Marina on the note before she
> sent it to Frank.
=====ERROR: in the presence of debbee reynolds, Mary asked for a
piece of paper. I had nothing but xeroxes and handed her one that
already had the pictures on it. She wrote to ONE SIDE on it, at an
angle, due to the presence of the pictures themselves. I have the
original in ink, and it is obvious that this was exacrtly the case.
Mary actually commented that the pictures of me and of Marina were
convincingly similar. BY THE WAY, HOW MANY PEOPLE CAN PROVE THEY
LEARNED SOME RUSSIAN, LIVED IN NEW ORLEANS, HUSBAND OUT OF TOWN,
WORKED WITH LEE OSWALD, LIVED QUITE NEAR HIM AND MOVED THERE SAME
WEEK, AND ALSO LOOKED LIKE MARINA OSWALD, AND YET WAS ENGAGED IN
CANCER RESEARCH, WELL KNOWN TO OCHSNER -- FUNDER OF INCA--TO WHICH
REILY CO. HEADS BELONGED--YET SOMEHOW BECAME A SECRETARY FOR A VICE
PRESIDENT OF REILY'S, WITHOUT ANY OUTWARD WORK BEING DONE AT OCHSNER'S
CANCER CLINIC? MY RESEMBLANCE TO MARINA AND ALL THE REST OF THIS, PLUS
MY DOCUMENTATION, SHOULD START TO MAKE SENSE AS TO MY INVOLVEMENT WITH
LHO TO SOME READER OUT THERE.=======
I later asked Frank to make a copy of Judyth's
> book for me since she refused to let me look at the book.
===A CRUEL AND CALLOUS STATEMENT. I BROUGHT THE BOOK WITH ME FOR MANY
VISITS. I TOLD MARY ONCE TIME THAT FRANK HAD THE ENTIRE MANUSCRIPT AND
TO ASK HIM TO SEND HER A COPY,AND I CAN;T HELP IT THAT HE NEVER
HONORED HER REQUEST. I CARRIED TWQO SUITCASES FULL OF DOCUMENTS AND
THE MANUSCRIPT WITH ME EVERY TIME I CAME TO SEE MARY UNTIL SHE MOVED
TO VICKERY TOWERS. ALL SHE HAD TO DO WAS ASK. I HAVE NEVER REFUSED
ANYONE'S HONEST REQUEST FOR EVIDENCE OR COPIES OF ANYTHING. AND I HAVE
ALWAYS PAID FOR THESE MYSELF.====
I have
> never seen any portion of the book and I now have no desire to see it.
==THIS MEANS FRANK NEVER SENT HER THE BOOK. I NEVER KNEW HE FAILED TO
HONOR HER REQUEST. I THINK IT REMARKABLE THAT NOW MARY HAS 'NO DESIRE'
TO SEE THE BOOK. BUT SHE DID SEE PORTIONS OF THE BOOK. I HAD A STACK
OF MANUSCRIPT PAGES FOR HER TO LOOK AT. MARY INSTEAD KEPT ASKING
QUESTIONS.===============
>
> She and Howard Platzman immediately started sending notes to
> Frank Weimann wanting to know when he was going to sell the book,
> apparently wanting advances.
=====ANOTHER CRUEL AND CALLOUS STATEMENT. IMMEDIATELY? WE WAITED FOR
WEEKS AND FINALLY FOUND OUT THAT HE 'LOVED' THE BOOK. SO WE WAITED.
AND WAITED. WE WAITED THREE MONTHS WITHOUT HEARING FROM FRANK W.
FINALLY, WE CONTACTED HIM. HE WAS IRRITATED AND INSINUATED THAT WE HAD
OVERSTEPPED OUTRSELVES BY CONTACTING HIM. I HAD NEVER BEFORE HEARD
SUCH STUFF. WE WERE WQORRIED AND WONDERED IF SOMEBODY HAD 'GOT' TO
HIM. INDEED, THAT TURNED OUT TO HAVE TO BE THE CASE, AS
THIS MAN WHO SAID HE 'LOVED' THE BOOK SAT ON IT FOR MONTHS AND FINALY
SENT IT BACK, WITHOUT EVER SHOWING IT TO A SINGLE PUBLISHER.=====
Frank finally sent the whole book back
> to them and refused to work with them. Frank apologized to me and I
> told him I was surprised that he had tolerated them as long as he had.
==ANOTHER SURPRISINGLY CRUEL AND CALLOUS REMARK, SINCE MARY, ON OUR
END OF THINGS, SAID FRAK WAS A MAN WE SHOULD NOT EVER BOTHER, TOP OF
HIS LINE, AND SHE WAS SORRY, THAT WAS THE WAY HE WAS AND WE WULD HAVE
TO BE VERY PATIENT FOR THREE MORE MONTHS. FRANK W. KEPT THE BOOK
ANOTHER THREE MONTHS AND THEN SENT IT SUDDENLY BACK TO HOWARD PLATZMAN
WITHOUT EVEN A NOTE WITH IT. WE NEVER ASKED FOR A PENNY. WE NEVER
ASKED FOR A CONTRACT., WE ONLY ASKED THAT HE DO THE JOB HE HAD FIRST
AGREED TO DO-- SELL THE BOOK PROPERLY AND IN A TIMELY MANNER. INSTEAD,
HE SAT ON IT. THIS STATEMENT BY MARY FERRELL IS ABOUT THE MOST CRUEL
THING I HAVE READ COMING FROM HER, SINCE SHE HELD ME IN HER ARMS AND
COMFORTED ME ABOUT FRANK'S BEHAVIOR. SHE TOLD ME, 'IF FRANK CAN;T SELL
IT, BETER GIVE UP. NOBODY WILL BUY IT-- THEY WILL STOP IT FROM EVER
GETYING P8UBLISHED.'====
> Frank told me that the book would have sold but needed rewriting,
> which they refused to do.
===FRANK NEVER ASKED A THING OF US. HE TOLD US NOT TO BOTHER HIM. WE
WOULD HAVE REWRITTEN THE BOOK HAD HE ASKED. THIS IS A LIE, EITHER BY
FRANK OR BY MARY.======
>
> Until now, I have discussed this matter with only four
> people: Robert Chapman, David Lifton, Debra Conway and Louis Girdler.
==ERROR: WHILE ALL FOUR OF THESE PEOPLE ARE LONGTIME BUDDIES, MARY
NEVER TOLD ME SHE DISCUSSED THE MATTER WITH THEM,IN TIS MANNER. SHE
INDICATED THAT SHE WAS BEING HARRASSED AND PRESSURED TO COME OUT
AGAINST ME. I FINALLY REPORTED THIS TO POTHER PERSONS, AS MARY HAD GOT
TO THE STAGE WHERE SHE SAID SHE DID NOT EWANT TO BOTHER WITH AY OF IT
ANYMORE. MARY GAVE ME TWO CHECKS FOR A HUNDRED DOLLARS EACH AT THIS
TIME TO HELP ME WITH EXPENSES DUE TO A RUINED CAR. SHE EVEN OFFERED
ME A BRAND NEW CAR. I DECLINED THAT OFFER. IS THIS THE SAME WOMAN WHO
SAID SHE ONLY DISCUSSED THIS MATTER WITH FOUR PEOPLE? I KNOW SHE
CONTACTED ADDITIONAL PEOPLE.====
> They have all kept my disclosures in confidence because I begged them
> not to do anything that might cause Judyth to harm herself.
====ANOTHER CRUEL AND MALICIOUS STATEMENT. WHILE I HAVE BEEN HARMED BY
MARY, WHILE I HAVE BEEN HARMED BY A VAN PLOWING INTO AND TOTALING MY
CAR, WHILE I HAVE BEEN HARMED BY DELIBERATE DISTORTIONS AND BY VICIOUS
LIES, I AM NOT OF THE SORT TO DO HARM TO MYSELF. GOOD GOD, I LOVE
LIFE AND WOULD NEVER HARM A FLEA (WELL, MAYBE FLEAS). THIS IS A CRUEL
STATEMENT FROM A WOMAN WHO RECEIVED POEMS FR0M ME ABOUT THE BEAUTY AND
JOY OF LIFE -- TO CHEER HER UP IN HER LONG SEIGES OF ILLNESS---THAT I
COMPOSED AND SENT TO HER.====
===================================END OF PART FOUR=====PLEASE FORGIVE
TYPOS AND CAPS... AM NOT FEELING WELL AND APOLOGIZE...EASIER TO TYPE
AND SEE ALL CAPS...===========
John McAdams
wrote:
>==PART TWO OF JUDYTH'S MESSAGE CORRECTING ERRORS IN A POST ATTRIBUTED
>TO MARY FERRELL (IT PROBABLY IS MF'S, BUT HAS IT BEEN DOCTORED?) BY
>DR. JOHN MCADAMS.====
>
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
>> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
>> explicit permission.
>>
>> <Quote on>
>>
>> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>>
>> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
>> by my careless words or deeds>
>===SNIP=======
>
>> She told how she met him in April of 1963 in a New Orleans or
>> Metairie, Louisiana, post office, while standing at the General
>> Delivery window.
>
>===CORRECTION BY JUDYTH: I SAID WE MET APRIL 26, 1963 AT A POST
>POFFICE SO NEW THAT THEY HAD JUST PLANTED THE GRASS OUTSIDE. I COULD
>NO LONGER REMEBER ITS ADDRESS. I STILL DO NOT KNOW ITS ADDRESS. Where
>did Mary get this additional statement from?=======
>
> She said she and her soon-to-be husband, Robert
>> Baker, had chosen to write to each other through General Delivery
>> using code names. One of the names used was similar to Rorke and
>> either she or Lee misunderstood and thought the name being used was
>> Alexander Rorke.
>
>====ELUCIDATION BY JUDYTH: Robert asked me to write to him as if my
>name was RALEIGH ROARKE .
Huh? Was Robert Baker a spook too?
>When i asked at general delivery if a letter
>had arrived for ROARKE, from a Robert A. Baker, Lee, who was standing
>behind me, later said he heard me mention the names of both 'Rorke';
>and 'Robert A. Baker'and this intrigued him. It turned out that Alex
>Rorke had that very day --April 26--perhaps been on some flight over
>Cuba out of Miami, and secret service agent Robert A. Baker --who was
>in Miami-- had been in contact with both Lee and with Rorke earlier in
>April or perhaps in March--and there were other indications that Lee
>had been in Florida recently.
Great. We now have Lee Oswald in Florida "recently" as of April 1963.
That's not possible.
So let me see whether I understand this: Judyth and Lee, both of whom
were tasked by the Evil Minions to be part of the "cancer research
project" just happened to meet *by accident* at the post office?
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
wrote:
>==PART TWO OF JUDYTH'S MESSAGE CORRECTING ERRORS IN A POST ATTRIBUTED
>TO MARY FERRELL (IT PROBABLY IS MF'S, BUT HAS IT BEEN DOCTORED?) BY
>DR. JOHN MCADAMS.====
>
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
>> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
>> explicit permission.
>>
>> <Quote on>
>>
>> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>>
>> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
>> by my careless words or deeds>
>===SNIP=======
>
>Judyth said it had been planned that Alexander Rorke
>> would pick up Lee Oswald in a plane in some part of the Yucatan,
>> Mexico.
>
>===JUDYTH: MARY FERREL MAKES YET ANOTHER ERROR. MUCH LATER, there was
>a plan to use Alex Rorke to take me to the Yucatan-- approxiumately
>where Belize is located, but easily found just by remembering the
>present-day locarion of cancun. though it was primitive at that time,
>which was plainly stated in the book.
Huh? The "official version" from Team Judyth was that the book said
"fine hotel in Cancun, but that wasn't Judyth's fault. It was Howard
Platzman who put that in.
Or, alternatively, it was Peter Cox her first agent.
>be that as it may, there was no
>mention of such a trip at this meeting. Further, Rorke was supposed to
>fly ME from Floirda to the Yucatan, but we heard he got murdered. this
>is all messed up and nothing like what was discussed. What has
>happened to Mary's memory?==========
>
Well . . . maybe Mary's memory is slipping. Or maybe the story is
changing, and the version Mary remembers is no longer "operative."
John McAdams
wrote:
>==PART TWO OF JUDYTH'S MESSAGE CORRECTING ERRORS IN A POST ATTRIBUTED
>TO MARY FERRELL (IT PROBABLY IS MF'S, BUT HAS IT BEEN DOCTORED?) BY
>DR. JOHN MCADAMS.====
>
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
>> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
>> explicit permission.
>>
>> <Quote on>
>>
>> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>>
>> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
>> by my careless words or deeds>
>===SNIP=======
>
>She was so startled that she dropped a rolled-up newspaper
>> that was under her arm and Lee Oswald stooped and retrieved it. When
>> he handed it to her, she thanked him in Russian.
>
>=====ERROR. i have plainly repeated what happened her to many readers.
> As i was HANDED the letter, i dropped the rolled-up paper that had a
>coded message printed in it: "JARYO...nice here..." etc. It was kissed
>with lipstick and LHO noticed it, he later told me. I WAS NEVER
>STARTLED BY ANYTHING. He picked it up and handed it to me and I said
>thanks, comrade, In Russian, Today, I say "TUSEN TAK" in Norwegian. It
>was a habit i had and have always kept, ask any of my friends, to say
>'thank you' in various foreign languages. ======
>>
>> I asked her why she would use the Russian language to a man
>> she didn't know standing in a line at the post office in Louisiana.
>> She claimed that Dr. Oschner and his colleagues had insisted that she
>> study Russian and become fluent in the language.
>
>===ERROR. Dr. Ochsner was never involved in this matter. What has
>happened to Mary's memory? At Manatee High School, Col. Philip V.
>Doyle and some of his right-wing military friends insisted it was wise
>i learn Russian and arranged for me to take a free course in
>conversational Russian at (then) Manatee jr. College. I have the
>textbook and its provenance is secure, stamped, fulkl of my
>handwriting and dates of what to study for ongoing classes.
Where is the transcript?
>I also
>have another textr showing ongoing work i was doing when I went to
>college. NOBODY EVER INSISTED I BECOME FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE. I HAVE
>NEVER STATED THAT I WAS EVER FLUENT IN THE LANGUAGE, OR THAT FLUENCY
>WAS EVER REQUIRED. BUT I KNEW ENOUGH RUSSIAN TO BE ABLE TO TALK A
>LITTLE TO LEE WHEN WE WERE IN PUBLIC, AND NOBODY COULD UNDERSTAND WHAT
>WE SAID TO EACH OTHER.=====
>
> She never gave a
>> coherent answer about why she was instructed to learn Russian.
>
>===ERROR: Mary was given the same information that you see
>above.======
>
But it doesn't constitute a "coherent answer."
Since Lee spoke English, it wasn't necessary to speak Russian to
communicate with him.
>>
>> When talking about Alexander Rorke, she said she was to meet
>> Lee and Rorke in Cancun, Mexico, following the assassination.
>
Looks like we have the "Cancun" thing again, this time from Mary.
>====ERROR. I said that Rorke had been murdered and unknown person
>would now be flying me to Mexico,, which frightened
>me.===================
>
Yep, Cancun was certainly part of the story, until it got sanitized
out.
> She had
>> a book that she claimed David Ferrie had given to her to use as her
>> pass into Eglin Air Force Base in Florida where she was to be put
>> aboard a plane and flown to Mexico to meet with Lee. "Eglin Air Force
>> Base" was stamped on the spine of the book.
So the U.S. Air Force was in on The Conspiracy too?
Who in the world uses a *book* as a pass?
Why not just give her an airline ticket? Or just hire a private
pilot? Involving the Air Force seems a bit insecure for any well-run
conspiracy.
>===TRUE. At last a sentence i do not have to correct. it's about
>time.======
>>
.John
Judyth V. Baker
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
12,2001========RESPONSE BY JUDYTH VARY BAKER========
> <Quote on>
>
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>
> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
>> MARY FERRELL(APPARENTLY) WROTE:
> It has now reached the point where I believe Howard Platzman
> and Judyth are using what they think is a form of blackmail
==THIS IS ANOTHER SURPRISING AND DISMAYING ASSESSMENT WHICH REEKS OF
MALICE.======
to prod me
> into endorsing Judyth and her entire story.
==NOBODY CAN PROD MARY TO DO ANYTHING. OR CAN THEY?=====
Howard wrote a long email
> message to me indicating that I must go on camera or write a message
> saying that I believed Judyth's story or I would be branded a demented
> old woman.
=====ANYONE CAN REFERENCE HOWARD'S ACTUAL EMAIL ON THE INTERNET TO SEE
WHAT HOWARD ACTUALLY WROTE. TO READ AS MARY APPARENTLY READ IT SHOWS
A LACK OF MENTAL ACUITY THAT IS DISTRESSING TO ME. THE WORDS ABOVE ARE
A MERE A PARODY OF WHAT HE SAID AND CONSTITUTE AN IRRESPONSIBLE
STATEMENT HARDLY WORTHY OF A LADY OF QUALITY SUCH AS MARY FERRELL,
WHICH IS ONE REASON IT IS DIFFICULT FOR US TO BELIEVE SHE ACTUALLY
WROTE THIS LETTER.===
Judyth came to visit me, unannounced, Monday night
=====I HAD BEEN WELCOMED THREE DAYS EARLIER INTO MARY'S NEW APARTMENT
AND HAD HELPED HER FRIEND SARAH BRING BOOKS AND DISKS INTO MARY;S
APARTMENT FROM STORAGE, AS MARY HAD NO ACCESS TO ANYTHING FOR COMPUTER
USE. HER FILES, MOST OF HER BOOKS, ETCV. HAD BEEN SOLD OFF. WE WERE
TRYING TO PUT TOGETHER STUFF SO SHE COULD USE HER COMPUTER. I HOOKED
UP HER PRINTER PROPERLY, AS WELL. AT THE END OF THAT TIME, WE TALKED,
AND MARY SAID I COULD COME OVER DAY OR NIGHT AT ANY TIME AND WOULD BE
WELCOME. I CALLED SUNDAY TO TELL HER I WOULD BE COMING MONDAY, BUT
MARY MISSED MY CALL, WHICH WAS, HOWEVER, SHOWN ON HER MACHINE. MARY
WOULD CALL ME AT MIDNIGHT AND TALK TO ME. SHE HAD CALLED ME TWICE THE
PRIOR WEEK TO INVITE ME OVER. TO SAY THAT I CAME UNANNOUNCED IS A REAL
BREACH OF TRUST, AS SHE TOLD ME I WAS WELCOME AT ANY TIME. SHE ALSO
APOLOGIZED THAT HER PHONE WAS TURNED DOWN IN ITS RINGER VOLUME AND
THAT SHE HAD NOT HEARD MY RINGING.======
and she
> said almost the same words that Howard had used.
====MARY ASKED ME TO EXPLAIN HOWARD'S EMAIL, SO I DID. WE WERE
CONCERNED THAT PEOPLE WOULD ATTACK MARY FOR SUPPORTING ME. WE HAD
HEARD THAT IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. I TOLD MARY PLAINLY THAT I HOPED
SHE WOULD WRITE ANOTHER NOTE ENDORSING THE BOOK, THAT WAS WHAT I HOPED
FOR, FOR OUR NEW LITERARY AGENT. MARY SAID SHE WOULD DO SO AND MARY
EVEN APOLOGIZED FOR MISINTERPRETING HOWARD'S EMAIL. I THOUGHT
EVERYTHING WAS EXPLAINED, BUT THEN THIS HAPPENED===SEE NEXT
SENTENCE====
Then she brought up
> a name from my past - the name of a woman I had not even thought of in
> almost 50 years. I asked her where she got that name and she said,
> "Carol Anne told me."
===ERRONEOUS STATEMENT: Carol Ann was throwing out a large stack of
correspondence and papers that had the name "Mary dean" on them and
also "Mrs. Mary Dean" on the cover. Mary told me she had taken a
correspondence course in bookkeeping years ago and at that time had
this name to secretly take the course as quickly as possible, as she
had just been hired for a job and had faked her actual credentials as
having learned bookkeeping. Mary said she finished the course weeks
ahead of the entire semester schedule by means of this correspondence,
but that nobody at the time ever suspected she did not know
bookkeeping when she began the job she applied for. "I learned
everything just in time," Mary told me. She WAS upset that I had seen
this material, but it had Mary's handwriting all over it, and Carol
Ann never hesitated to say it was her mother's stuff, so of course i
repeated this to mary. i had no idea it would upset her. We talked for
awhile. jack and the beanstalk was being shown, and we watched it in
silence for about fifteen minutes. Then I remembered i had a matchbox
collection of Mary's. I opened the sack during commercial break and
sowed her i had rescued her matchbox collection from being thrown in
the trash. mary told me i could keep the matches--she only wanted the
two brown woven baskets in which the collection had been stashed. So i
poured the collection into the paper sack and gave her the two
baskets. Mary said, "I got those from all over tis country and
europe." We talked about some of the matches. I rubbed Mary's back
and neck. She thanked me, and said I had "healing hands." that made me
so happy to do something nice for Mary. mary said she had not eaten
anything since breakfast.
Jimmy at tis time came over and showed me an album with a card in it
from Margueritre Oswald, written in her fine, elegant poenmanship,
sent upon the birth of his daughter. mary talked about marguerite for
awhile. then I said i had to go. i had papers to grade. I think we
had watched Who Wants to Be A Millionaire all the way through by now.I
had been there a long time. We had also seen Wheel of Fortune and the
news together. I did try to urge mary to eat something and found out
that there were no snacks poffered to residents. Jimmy said if they
missed their meal, that was it until breakfast time. that made me
angry. I was determined to bring some snacks for mary's refrigerator.
jimmy worked at Prego's all day long and sometimes also worked at
night or was gone elsewhere at night. they had still not installed the
dog door in the sliding glass door for mary's dog, oso. I had taught
oso how to sit and shake hands byu now and demonstrated this to Mary.
then it was time to go.=====
I immediately said to my son, "Judyth is
> leaving. Will you see her to the door."
==THIS IS NOT TRUE. I WAS THERE AT LEAST AN HOUR AFTER THE STATEMENTS
MADE ABOUT MRS. MARY DEAN. JIMMY SHOWED ME THER MARGUERITE OSWALD
CARD, FOR EXAMPLE. BEFORE I LEFT, MARY KISSED ME AND HUGGED ME AND
SAID PLEASE COME AGAIN SOON.=====
Jimmy escorted her to the
> door.
===JIMMY DID MORE THAN ESCORT ME TO THE DOOR. JIMMY ESCORTED ME ALL
THE WAY DOWN THE HALL AND HUGGED AND KISWED ME GOODBYE. I SAID I
WOULD LIKE TO GO TO PREGO'S AND TRY THE FOOD THERE. HE SAID HE WOULD
LOOK FORWARD TO THAT. JIMMY AND I LIKED EACH OTHER. HE STOOD AT THE
DOORWAY AT THE ENTRANCE AS I GOT INTO MY CAR.====
I called Carol Anne and told her what had happened. Carol Anne
> became almost hysterical and said, "Mother, you know I never said
> that."
==it is difficult to believe that a sensible woiman such as carol Ann
'became almost hysterical' about the name of Mary Dean being
mentioned. the fact that mary lied on her employment application
does, however, prove that at one time in her life, Mary was capable of
deception. Is this what worried her, or people finding out that her
name used to be Mrs. Mary Dean? ======
I explained that I had not believed she had said it. Carol
> Anne said, "Mother, those people act like they are crazy." My son
> Jimmy later said he thinks they act like they might be dangerous.
==MORE CRUEL AND CALLOUS STATEMENTS, IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENTS. WHAT
PEOPLE ARE CRAZY AND DANGEROUS? ?= ME? MY SISTER? HOWARD? MARTIN?
DEBBEE REYNOLDS, DESCRIBED EARLIER IN THIS SAME MESSAGE AS 'CHARMING'?
CAROL ANN SAID 'MARY DEAN' WAS HER MOTHER. HOW WOULD I KNOW IF SHE HAD
NOT TOLD ME? I ONLY KNEW MARY'S NAME AS MARY FERRELL. APPARENTLY,
THIS IS AN IMPORTANT THING, THIS FORMER NAME OF MARY'S. WELL, NOW IT
IS OUT IN THE OPEN.===========
>
> I want to make it clear that I have never believed Judyth's
> "story."
===='NEVER' IS A STRONG WORD, MARY. YOU SURE FOOLED ME. WHY DID YOU
WRITE THAT MY STORY WAS 'CREDIBLE' THEN, TO YOUR FRIEND THE LITERARY
AGENT? YOU SIGNED IT AND DATED IT. ====
I have believed that she knew Lee Harvey Oswald, either as a
> co-worker or as an employee she remembered after the assassination.
=====SHE CERTAINLY DID, AND FOR GOOD REASON.======
I
> have NEVER believed the story of the mad, passionate love affair.
===ERROR: SHE CWROTE THAT SHE BELIEVED MY STORY WAS CREDIBLE, SIGNED
AND DATED IT. SHE WAS ESPECIALLY OF THE BELIEF THAT THE STORY WOULD
SELL BECAUSE OF THE LOVE AFFAIR. AFTER ALL, JUST KNOWING LEE OSWALD AT
REILY WOULD NOT HAVE MADE A SELLING STORTY. WHY IS MARY (OR WHOEVER IS
USING MARY'S NAME) SAYING AN UNTRUTH LIKE THIS?=====
I
> can account for almost every minute of Lee's life from the time he
> joined the Marine Corps until the day of his death.
===TIS IS IMPOSSIBLE AND IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF A WILD AND
IRRESPONSIBLE STATEMENT THAT MAKES ME THINK THIS IS NOT THE MARY
FERRELL THAT I KNEW AND LOVED. WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO HER?=====
There was
> absolutely no time for nights of passionate love and Russian poetry
> reading.
=====NOT SO. HER OWN CHRONOLOGY STATES THERE ARE DAYS AT A TIME IN
APRIL WHEN LEE'S WHEREABOUTS WERE UNKNOWN., BUT NO, WE WEREN;T
SLEEPING TOGETHER AT THAT TIME. I MADE PLAIN TO MARY AND EVERYONE THAT
OUR MEETINGS IN THIS MANNER OCCDURRED IN DAYLIGHT HOURS. NOT AT NIGHT.
MARY SEEMS TO HAVE FORGOTTEN NEARLY EVERYTHING I TOLD HER.=====
I do not believe that they had sex in the back of trucks in
> Adrian Alba's garage.
==WE DID HAVE ONE ENCOUNTER INSIDE OF, NOT IN THE BACK OF, A RED VAN
THAT WAS IN THAT GARAGE. WE ROASTED AND IT WAS STUPID. THAT WAS IT.
THAT IS SINGULAR. NO 'TRUCKS' PLURAL. NO TRUCKS AT ALL. NOT IN THE
BACK OF ANY TRUCK. HOW ABOUT SOME ACCURACY HERE?======
At the very most, Judyth knew Lee a total of
> less than five months.
====I KNEW HIM IN NEW ORLEANS BETWEEN APRIL 26 AND SEPTEMBER 1, 1963.
tHAT'S 127 DAYS OF POSSIBLE DIRECT CONTACT. DEBRA CONWAY HAS CONTENDED
LEE DROPPED ME LIKE A HOT POTATO AFTER THAT BECAUSE SHE SIMPLY DIDN'T
BELIEVE HE'D EVER CALL ME AFTER THAT. BUT HE CERTAINLY DID. IF YOU ADD
THOSE MONTHS ON TO THE END-OF-APRIL-MAY-JUNE-JULY-AUGUST-FIRST OF
SEPTEMBER LIST,YOU CAN ADD OCTOBER, NOVEMBER TO THOSE FIVE MONTHS.
THAT'S SEVEN MONTHS OF CONTACT (NONE THROUGHOUT SEPTEMBER). EVEN FIVE
MONTHS OF CONTACT WITH A MAN IS ENOUGH TIME TO HAVE AN AFFAIR WITH
HIM. WHO ELSE CAN CLAIM A CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH LEE OSWALD DURING
HIS TIME IN NREW ORLEANS, AND WHY IS 'LESS THAN FIVE MONTHS' NOT A
SIGNIFICANT LENGTH OF TIME TO BEGIN AND CONDUCT AN AFFAIR IN?======
She claims that she talked to Lee just two
> days before the assassination by way of a Mafia wire-service phone
> line. I do not believe this.
=====MARY NEVER ARGUED WITH THIS. DEBRA CONWAY BROUGHT THIS UP
CONSTANTLY. I HAVE PROOF THAT SUCH LINES EXISTED. 'I DO NOT BELIEVE
THIS' DOES NOT CONSTITUTE EVIDENCE, ONLY OPINION.=====
=========END OF PART FIVE OF SIX PARTS.APOLOGIES FOR TYPOS,
ETC.===========
Judyth V. Baker
> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
> explicit permission.
>
> ===JUDYTH'S REPLY TO MARY FERRELL'S 9SUPPOSED) POST, PART SIX OF SIX: WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MARY FERRELL?==========
> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>
> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
> by my careless words or deeds.<SNIP> >
> >
>
Judyth claims that Lee introduced her to David Ferrie.
=====THIS IS TRUE.====
She
> claims that Ferrie introduced her to "Sparky" Rubenstein.
===BOTH LEE AND DAVE F. INTRODUCED ME TO HIM TOGETHER.======
She claims
> that Lee told her that Carlos Marcello called Jack Ruby when Lee was a
> child in Fort Worth and asked Ruby to keep an eye on Lee.
===I SAID THAT WHEN THE TEENAGED LEE MOVED TO FORT WORTH, JACK RUBY
WAS ASKED BY MARCELLO OR BY SOMEBODY IN HIS ORGANIZATION TO KEEP AN
EYE ON HIM. THERE WERE WARS FOR CONTROL OF DALLAS, I THINK, GOING ON,
BY THE MAFIA. MARGUERITE WAS WORRIED ABOUT LEE AND SEEMED TO HAVE SOME
INPUT WITH THE MAFIA IN TIS MATTER. JACK RUBY MET LEE AT ABOUT THIS
TIME BEFORE HE WENT INTO THE MARINES.=====
She claims
> that she last saw Ruby in New Orleans in June 1963.
=====THIS IS TRUE, AS BEST AS I CAN RECALL. =====
>
> She claims that as soon as she arrived in New Orleans, in
> April 1963, Dr. Oschner got her an apartment where prostitutes were
> living and the place was immediately raided and everyone taken to jail
> except Judyth.
===ERROR, BIG TIME ERROR! OCHSNER DID NOT KNOW I WAS IN TOWN. NOT AN
APARTMENT. A ROOM. SO MUCH WRONG HERE IT'S RIDICULOUS. I SPENT TEN
DAYS OR SO AT THE YWCA IN NEW ORLEANS, AS A LETTER I HAVE CLEARLY
STATES TO ROBERT BAKER. JUST AS LEE SPENT HIS FIRST DAYS IN NEW
ORLEANS AT THE YMCA. THERE IS SO MUCH WRONG IN THIS WHOLE STATEMENT
THAT I NOW WONDER HOW MARY GOT ANYTHING RIGHT, BECAUSE THIS WAS A VERY
PIVOTAL TIME THAT MADE THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ME AND LEE BEGIN, AND
MARY HAS IT ALL WRONG.======
She says Lee got her another apartment.
===THIS IS TRUE. OCHSNER WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN THIS MATTER AT THIS
TIME.===
They then
> lived close to each other and would ride the bus from Reily out to the
> end of the line and ride back so they could sit together.
==LEE MOVED IN WITHIN DAYS OF MY MOVING IN. WE WERE INTERVIEWED THE
SAME DAY, WE WERE HIRED THE SAME DAY, WE RODE INTO REILY'S ON SAME
BUSLINE EVERY SINGLE DAY, YES. AND ON THE WAY HOME, WHEN WE RODE
TOGETHER, WE DID RIDE PAST OUR PLACES TO THE PARK SO WE COULD THEN
TAKE ANOTHER BUS TOWARD TOWN AND SIT TOGETHER UNOBSERVED ON THE WAY
BACK TO OUR APARTMENTS.====
>
> Her first job, after arriving in New Orleans, was as a
> waitress in a hamburgher restaurant in Metairie near Carlos Marcello's
> Town and Country Motel.
==IT WAS EITHER THAT OR GO TO PLAYBOY BUNNY SCHOOL. I WANTED TO TRY TO
TAKE CARE OF MYSELF. MY LIFE WAS BEING RUN EVERY SINGLE DAY BY OTHER
PEOPLE UNTIL NOW.====
She speaks very familiarly of Carlos Marcello
> and says that Lee acted as a courier for Carlos and Lee's uncle, Dutz
> Murret.
==THIS IS TRUE.HE DID IT ONCE, AT LEAST. LEE KNEW ABOUT EVERYONE IN
MARCELLO'S ORGANIZATON.=======
>
> Her story of Lee's reading to her from the small gray book,
> The Queen of Spaces, did startle me because I had seen either this
> book or a replica of it
==A REPLICA OF IT? WHAT DOES SHE MEAN?=====
in Ruth Paine's living room two or three years
> following the assassination.
=====THE BOOK WAS VERY IMPORTANT AND WAS LINKED TO THE LIBRETTO OF THE
OPERA IN SOME WAY.MARY TOLD ME SHE HAD LUIS GIRDLER INVESTIGATE THE
LIBRARY AND THE ONLY BOOK THEY HAD LIKE IT WAS BOUND DIFFERENTLY. SHE
ALSO QUETIONED ME THAT WAS I SURE IT WAS A GRAY COVER? I INSISTED IT
WAS AND WENT INTO A LOT OF DETAIL. SHE SAID THE ONLY COPIES SHE KNEW
OF LIKE IT ALL HAD RED COVERS. BUT LEE;S WAS A FLIMSY GREY COVER, AND
I STUCK TO MY ST0RY, WHICH WAS THE TRUTH.=====================
Judyth claimed that the library in
> Lafayette, Louisiana, did not have the 26 volumes of the Warren
> Commission's work
==ABSLUTELY NOT TRUE! I SAID I DID NOT PHYSICALLY HAVE ACCESS TO THESE
AS THEY HAD BEEN BOXED UP AT ONE POINT DURING LIBRARY CONSTRUCTION. I
HAVE A PHYSICAL DISABILITY THAT MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH THEESE
VOLUMES AS THE ELEVATORS DIDN;T WORK IN THE BUILDING FOR A WHOLE
YEAR.====
and did not have a copy of The Queen of Spades.
==I SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE GRAY BOOK THAT WAS LIKE
LEE'S. NO WAY. THERE WAS A COPY IN RUSSIAN OF PUSHKIN'S WORKS,
INCLUDING THAT STORY,AND ALSO A COLLECTION OF PUSHKIN'S STORIES, INCL.
Q OF S, IN ENGLISH. ENGLISH, AMONG COLLECTED SHORT STORIES, BOUND VERY
DIFFERENTLY FROM WHAT I DESCRIBED TO MARY FERRELL.===
> When I asked her if she had tried the university library where she
> worked, she said they had nothing.
==THIS IS NOT TRUE. DR. JOSEPH RIEHL KNOWS EXACTLY HOW I SUED THAT
LIBRARY, THANK GOD. THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT MISINTERPRETATION OIF THE
FACTS. THAT I WAS LIMITED IN ACCESS IS ABSOLUTELY THE CASE DUE TO
CONSTRUCTION IN THE LIBRARY. WHOLE SECTIONS WERE INACCESSIBLE FOR A
YEAR, SOME WERE NOT ACCESSIBLE TO ME FOR A YEAR AND A HALF. I HAD TO
HAVE SOMEBODY LOCATE A VOLUME OF THE 26 VOLUMES FOR ME. SOMETIMES THEY
COULD NOT FIND THESE BOOKS ON THE SHELF, OR WHEN THEY WENT INTO BOXES,
AT ALL. ===
Louis Girdler called the
> university library and talked to a woman named Sandy who worked there
> and they had everything on the assassination
==NOT SO. THEY DON;T HAVE MUCH OF ANYTHING 'ON THE ASSASSINATION.' WHY
DIDN'T THEY ASK DR. JOE RIEHL? I ASKED HIM WHAT IN THE WORLD WAS
AVAILABLE. HE TOLD ME TO GO TO THE LOCAL CITY LIBRARY. LATER HE TOLD
ME THEY ALSO HAD MAFIA KINGFISH AT THE LOCAL LIBRARY. THE UNIVERSITY
LIBRARY HAAD SURPRINGINGLY LITTLE ON THE ASSASSINATION WRITTEN BY
INDIVIDUALS. AND A LOT OF IT WAS INACCESSIBLE TO ME ANYWAY, OIN THAT I
COULD NOT HUNT THIS STUFF UP.===
and also had a copy of
> Pushkin's play, The Queen of Spades.
==BIG DEAL...IT WAS NOT BOUND IN GRAY. IT WAS NOT THE BOOK LEE HAD.
VERY DIFFERENT STUFF, AS ALREADY DESCRIBED ABOVE. MARY FERRELL IS
RESTRUCTURING THE ACTUAL ACCOUNT TO FIT SOME KIND OF AGENDA.===
>
> Judyth tells a fantastic story about the man who wrote
> Andersonville - MacKinlay Kantor. She claims that she would walk with
> him through a garden, holding a tape recorder and Kantor would dictate
> into the recorder. She says that Kantor "fell in
==I HAVE PROOF THAT KANTOR CAME TO MY VERY ENGLISH CLASS. I WAS TH
BEST WRITER AND WAS INTRODUCED TO HIM., I CAN PROVE THAT KANTOR
CREATED HIS BOOK SPIRIT LAKE BY THIS VERY METHOD, AND I WAS HIS
ACQUAINTANCE. HE NEVER FELL IN LOVE WITH ME, BUT HE LIKED ME VERY
MUCH, I SAW HIM HALF A DOZEN TIMES. A LOT OF PEOPLE DO NOT REALIZE HE
LIVED ONLY A FEW MILES FROM ME AND ALSO MY SCHOOL PRINCIPAL,PAUL
DAVIS, ON SIESTA KEY IN SARASOTA. HE WAS WRITING THE BIOGRAPHY OF
CURTIS LEMAY AND KNEW LEMAY. MY NAME GOT PASSED AROUND AMONG A LOT OF
RIGHTWING MILITARY PEOPLE.=======
>
> She claims she wrote to Bertrand Russell about her reluctance
> to have sex with Lee because she and he were both married at the time.
> She says that Russell wrote to her that she must not let anything hold
> her back if they were in love. They must have sex.
===THIS WAS JUST A NOTE, NOT A LETTER===
Joan Mellen was
> married to Ralph Schoenman for a number of years. Schoenman was the
> top aide to Bertrand Russell during the last years of Russell's life.
> Schoenman told Joan that during the period Judyth claims this happened
> Russell was not even able to read his own mail and he NEVER wrote such
> a letter.
=====THERE IS A LAWSUIT WHERE HE SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE THAT IS ONNTE
RECORD, WHEN HE DEFENDED HIMSELF AGAINST CLAIMS THAT HE WAS RUNNING
ALL OF RUSSELL'S CORRESPONDENCE. JOAN MELLEN'S WORD IS HARDLY
RELIABLE. SHE IS PREJUDICED AGAINST ME. SHE WROTE ME AN EMAIL TELLING
ME MARY N-E-V-E-R WANTED TO SEE ME AGAIN. SHE LATER WAS FORCED TO
ADMIT THAT SHE LIED AND THAT MARY HAD NEVER SAID SUCH A THING, THAT
SHE HAD DONE THIS TO 'PROTECT' MARY FERRELL FROM ME, AND THAT SHE WAS
SORRY, MARY WAS SO ANGRY ABOUT THAT THAT SHE REFUSED TO WRITE JOAN FOR
A LONG TIME.MARY DID COMPLAIN TO ME THAT ALL HER FRIENDS WERE AGAINST
HER BECAUSE SHE STUCK UP FOR ME AND SHE WAS GETTING WEARY DEFENDING
ME. SHE ALSO COMPLAINED THAT ADELE EDISEN NO LONGER WAS WRITING TO HER
BECAUSE OF ME. ======
>
> I could go on and on
==SO COULD I====
for pages about her truly incredible
> stories.
===IF SHE DOES, I WILL EXPLAIN WHAT SHE HAS FORGOTTEN OR
MISUNDERSTOOD.=====
I just want to emphasize that I have never told her I
> believed she and Lee had a romantic relationship.
==THAT IS NOT WHAT SHE TOLD ME, TIME AND AGAIN. I COULD MENTION WHAT
SHE TOLD ME ABOUT HER PERSONAL ROMATIC EXPERIENCES WITH BUCK, BUT I
WILL FORBEAR===
I have assured her
> that I do believe she knew him.
====HOW KIND AND GENEROUS AFTER SAYING ALL OF THIS! DEAR GOD, MARY,
YOU SAID YOU LOVED ME AND WOULD DEFEND ME BECAUSE OF ALL THE THINGS IU
TOLD YOU THAT CONVINCED YOU I KNEW HIM!====WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MY
MARY?====
I can't explain her knowledge about
> the book I saw in Ruth Paine's house between Christmas and New Year's
> of 1967. I believe the little book was unique and I know that Judyth
> described it perfectly.
==YES, IT WAS UNIQUE. IT WAS LEE'S TREASURE. THE QUEEN OF SPADES WAS
OF GREAT IMPORTANCE TO LEE, HE EVEN HAD TO MEMORIZE IT. THE BOOK TELLS
WHY. IT IS PROOF I KNEW LEE CLOSELY ENOUGH THAT HE CONFIDED THIS
BOOK'S CONTENTS TO ME. THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE MY MOUTH
SHUT FOR KNOWING ABOUT THIS BOOK.====
With few exceptions, Judyth's accounts of her
> relationship with Lee could have been concocted from things that have
> been published.
==GOOD GOD, HIS LIFE HAS BEEN STUDIED SO CLOSELY, IT IS A MIRACLE THAT
ANYTHING I REMEMBER HASN;T BEEN DISCOVERED ABOUT HIM ALREADY. FOR
EXAMPLE, THE BOOK STANDS AS ONE OF THOSE PROOFS THAT I KNEW HIM.====
She has repeatedly said that she loves me because I
> want to clear Lee's name and reputation. I have only said that I do
> not believe that Lee planned, executed and covered up the
> assassination alone. I am not at all certain that Lee's name and
> reputation can be "cleared."
==THIS WAS WHY MARY DESTROYED SO MANY OF HER FILES THAT STATED HER
PERSONAL THOUGHTS. SHE WANTS TO BE REMEMBERED AS THE 'IMPARTIAL'
RESEARCHER, BUT SHE WAS NOT IMPARTIAL. AND NOW THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT,
RETAINING HER REPUTATION FOR IMPARTIALITY, THAN DEFENDING THE LAST
IMPOORTANT WITNESS IN TIS CASE FROM DEMOLITION BY HER COORDINATED PACK
OF ENEMIES.======
Judyth V. Baker
Judyth V. Baker
REF:> > Wednesday, December 12, 2001
> >
> > "The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
> > by my careless words or deeds"
> ===CONTINUING THE RESPONSE, WHERE WE LEFT OFF:===========
"MF" WROTE:
> "...She seated herself on the floor close to my feet and started
> TYPOS. I AM NOT FEELING WELL. JVB.=======================
>
> > ==the next section, section three, continues to correct the procession
of ongoing errors and misinformation presented as 'fact' in this missive
supposedly from Mary Ferrell. While i have no doubt that major portions of
this message were written by Mary, it seems that some of the text was
influenced by others in a manner that at one time Mary ferrell would never
have allowed. The message implies that Mary 'fooled' me for over a year,
and led me on, including writing a note that I was credible to a literary
agent. Would anyone deceive somebody for so long simply to avoid 'hurting'
them or fearing that person might harm herself-- and yet allow this
message to be displayed in such a manner on the internet? The reasons
Mary gives include my dropping a name---Mary Dean---and her statement that
she be,ieves we were trying to blackmail her, based on an email that is
easily accessed on the internet. A reading of that email does not give
evidence of any 'blackmail' attempt by Platzman. mMry Ferrell seems to
have been influenced very negatively by that email and by her so-called
'friends' who have not hesitated to expose Mary, via this letter, in her
present frailties of logic, memory and clarity of thought. i am very sorry
to have to defend myself, but i have no choice. Judyth Vary Baker.
John McAdams
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Ridiculous, Robert.
>You seem to be trying to start a new smear.
>Mary Ferrell remains sharp, and no one is calling her a "demented old
>woman," certainly not us.
>
Well, Martin, things do change. As I write this on the evening of
Dec. 30, Judyth is pretty much doing exactly that.
.John
--
John McAdams
wrote:
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
>> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
>> explicit permission.
>> ==================PART FOUR: RESPONSE TO MARY FERRELL'S ALLEGED 9AND SEEMINGLY IS HER) POST PLACED BY JOHNNY MCADAMS ON THIS NEWSGROUP====
>> <Quote on>
>>
>> Wednesday, December 12, 2001
>>
>> The last thing I would ever want to do is harm another person
>> by my careless words or deeds.<snip
>
>> She begged me to help her get her book published.
>==I SURE DID.======
>
> I told her
>> I would have to read the book first
>
>=====ERROR: MARY FERRELL NEVER STATED THIS.
>
> but finally agreed to write a note
>> to a friend of mine in New York, Frank Weimann of the Literary Group.
>> On November 27th, I wrote a short note to Frank Weimann on a scrap of
>> paper. I have since learned that Judyth has circulated Xerox copies
>> of that note as proof that I endorse her story.
>
>=====CORRECTION: I ASKED MARY FERRELL'S PERMISSION TO USE HER NOTE
>WITH OTHER PUBLISHERS AND WITH PERSONS SUCH AS REPORTERS, ETC. AND SHE
>EVENTUALLY GAVE ME POERMISSION TO DO SO. I placed on the internet
>that very day she said it was okay to do so.========
>>
>> My note read: "Nov. 27, 2000 Dear Frank, I think you
>> should take a look at this woman's story. I believe she is credible
>> and I believe her story will sell. Best regards, Mary Ferrell" I
>> later learned that she placed a small photo of herself in a pose that
>> looked very much like an early photo of Marina on the note before she
>> sent it to Frank.
>
>=====ERROR: in the presence of debbee reynolds, Mary asked for a
>piece of paper.
> I later asked Frank to make a copy of Judyth's
>> book for me since she refused to let me look at the book.
>
>===A CRUEL AND CALLOUS STATEMENT.
>
>>
>> She and Howard Platzman immediately started sending notes to
>> Frank Weimann wanting to know when he was going to sell the book,
>> apparently wanting advances.
>
>=====ANOTHER CRUEL AND CALLOUS STATEMENT.
>
> Frank finally sent the whole book back
>> to them and refused to work with them. Frank apologized to me and I
>> told him I was surprised that he had tolerated them as long as he had.
>
>==ANOTHER SURPRISINGLY CRUEL AND CALLOUS REMARK,
>
>> Frank told me that the book would have sold but needed rewriting,
>> which they refused to do.
>
>===FRANK NEVER ASKED A THING OF US. HE TOLD US NOT TO BOTHER HIM. WE
>WOULD HAVE REWRITTEN THE BOOK HAD HE ASKED. THIS IS A LIE, EITHER BY
>FRANK OR BY MARY.======
>>
>> Until now, I have discussed this matter with only four
>> people: Robert Chapman, David Lifton, Debra Conway and Louis Girdler.
>
>
>==ERROR: WHILE ALL FOUR OF THESE PEOPLE ARE LONGTIME BUDDIES, MARY
>NEVER TOLD ME SHE DISCUSSED THE MATTER WITH THEM,IN TIS MANNER.
>
>> They have all kept my disclosures in confidence because I begged them
>> not to do anything that might cause Judyth to harm herself.
>
>
>====ANOTHER CRUEL AND MALICIOUS STATEMENT.
It had to happen. Mary Ferrell comes out and says she doesn't believe
Judyth's account, and now she is under attack.
John McAdams
wrote:
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
>> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
>> explicit permission.
>>
>> <Quote on>
>>
>> Her first job, after arriving in New Orleans, was as a
>> waitress in a hamburgher restaurant in Metairie near Carlos Marcello's
>> Town and Country Motel.
>
>==IT WAS EITHER THAT OR GO TO PLAYBOY BUNNY SCHOOL. I WANTED TO TRY TO
>TAKE CARE OF MYSELF. MY LIFE WAS BEING RUN EVERY SINGLE DAY BY OTHER
>PEOPLE UNTIL NOW.====
>
But I thought you were sent to New Orleans by the sinister forces of
The Conspiracy, Judyth?
Why didn't you start your cancer research immediately?
Why did the sinister forces of The Conspiracy make you earn a living
serving burgers?
Flounderball
FB
John McAdams
wrote:
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c181cef...@news.newsguy.com>...
>> The following was sent as an e-mail attachment from Mary Ferrell to me
>> and a few other people this afternoon. It is posted here with her
>> explicit permission.
>>
>> <Quote on>
>> ===JUDYTH'S REPLY TO MARY FERRELL'S 9SUPPOSED) POST, PART SIX OF SIX: WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MARY FERRELL?==========
>
[snipping]
>
> Judyth claimed that the library in
>> Lafayette, Louisiana, did not have the 26 volumes of the Warren
>> Commission's work
>
>==ABSLUTELY NOT TRUE! I SAID I DID NOT PHYSICALLY HAVE ACCESS TO THESE
>AS THEY HAD BEEN BOXED UP AT ONE POINT DURING LIBRARY CONSTRUCTION. I
>HAVE A PHYSICAL DISABILITY THAT MADE IT VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH THEESE
>VOLUMES AS THE ELEVATORS DIDN;T WORK IN THE BUILDING FOR A WHOLE
>YEAR.====
>
>and did not have a copy of The Queen of Spades.
>
>==I SAID THEY DID NOT HAVE A COPY OF THE GRAY BOOK THAT WAS LIKE
>LEE'S. NO WAY. THERE WAS A COPY IN RUSSIAN OF PUSHKIN'S WORKS,
>INCLUDING THAT STORY,AND ALSO A COLLECTION OF PUSHKIN'S STORIES, INCL.
>Q OF S, IN ENGLISH. ENGLISH, AMONG COLLECTED SHORT STORIES, BOUND VERY
>DIFFERENTLY FROM WHAT I DESCRIBED TO MARY FERRELL.===
>
>
>
>> When I asked her if she had tried the university library where she
>> worked, she said they had nothing.
>==THIS IS NOT TRUE. DR. JOSEPH RIEHL KNOWS EXACTLY HOW I SUED THAT
>LIBRARY, THANK GOD.
Is this really "sued," or is that a typo for "used?"
Since you made a bit deal of a typo of mine ("hit" for "hid"), it
seems worth asking.
>THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT MISINTERPRETATION OIF THE
>FACTS. THAT I WAS LIMITED IN ACCESS IS ABSOLUTELY THE CASE DUE TO
>CONSTRUCTION IN THE LIBRARY. WHOLE SECTIONS WERE INACCESSIBLE FOR A
>YEAR, SOME WERE NOT ACCESSIBLE TO ME FOR A YEAR AND A HALF. I HAD TO
>HAVE SOMEBODY LOCATE A VOLUME OF THE 26 VOLUMES FOR ME. SOMETIMES THEY
>COULD NOT FIND THESE BOOKS ON THE SHELF, OR WHEN THEY WENT INTO BOXES,
>AT ALL. ===
>
>
Sounds like you were doing some heavy-duty research, Judyth.
Judyth V. Baker
FLOUNDERBALL SAID "OOPS! DID NOT MEAN TO POST THIS ON THE INTERNET!" BUT
HERE IT IS, A PRIVATE POST BETWEEN ME AND 'FLOUNDERBALL.' WOULD ONE CALL
THIS A STOLEN EMAIL? WHAT AM I TO THINK? HERE'S AN EMAIL MESSAGE NOT AN
HOUR OLD ALREADY POSTED TO THE NEWSGROUP. FLOUNDERBALL, THIS WAS NEVER
MEANT FOR OTHER EYES. I DO NOT LIKE TO GOSSIP AND WAS SIMPLY TELLING YOU
THE AWFUL TRUTH. THAT IS WHAT I ALWAYS DO, BUT I TRY NOT TO TALK ABOUT
ANYONE IN PUBLIC EXCEPT TO DEFEND MYSELF. I APOLOGIZE TO MS. EDISEN,
ALTHOUGH THIS DOES SEEM TO BE THE SITUATION AS FAR AS I COULD DISCERN IT
FROM WHAT MARY FERRELL ACTUALLY TOLD ME.
flound...@aol.com (Flounderball) wrote in message news:<20011230215941...@mb-df.aol.com>...
Martin Shackelford
The error appeared in one draft of a chapter. So what?
Martin
Martin Shackelford
arrogance!
Martin
Flounderball
& SENT TO NG. SO EMAILED J & SAID "OOPS" BUT DID NEVER POST AN THING PRIVATE OF
J---ONLY "QUOTE" FROM NG POST.
NEVRMIND. BETTER FOR FB TO STAY OUT OF IT.
>Subject: Re: Mary Ferrell on Judyth
>From: elect...@aol.com (Judyth V. Baker)
>Date: 12/31/01 1:20 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <ba6b02a7.01123...@posting.google.com>
Martin Shackelford
in its place. This is getting old, John, and you aren't fooling anyone.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
to be imposed on someone else's statements.
Martin
Judyth V. Baker
FERRELL. NOW WHEN JUDYTH MUST DEFEND HERSELF FROM FERRELL'S ATTACK,
JOHN 'LOO' MCADAMS LABELS HER DEFENSE AS AN 'ATTACK.' THE USUAL
DEFAMING TRICK LEARNED IN MARQUETTE'S RHETORIC COURSES, JOHN. YOU
ALSO DUBBED MY HISTORY AS A 'LITANY.' JESUIT CATHOLIC RHETORIC, EH?
==JVB==
john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c2fd848...@news.newsguy.com>...
Judyth V. Baker
constraints. Thanks to everyone who is honest and who cares. Long
after the book was already written, I began hunting up materials such
as Lee's clock in and clock out records and his paycheck stubs. Of
course these materials are useful, since I made assertions that relied
on the record. For example, i wrote that we began work the same day,
May 10, 1963. I have personal records proving that is when i was
hired. the 26 volumes--somewhere--there was no index-- contained the
information that Lee oswald began work may 10, 1963. I did find that
information. it became a valuable footnote. The research i did was to
prove what I had in my records matched what was out there in Lee's
records. I think this would clarify things for you, John, but I am
sure --by now-- that nothing I or martin or anyone else says means a
thing to you. All you want to do is weasel out information about the
book that you've trashed without reading a page. I am grateful that
decent people out there have written and expressed support. Of all who
wrote, at my invitation, only two of them had something negative to
say. of course, YOU never wrote to me. Nor did any of the dedicated
'researchers' such as Leyden, McNally, Johnson, etc. I believe I have
answered everyone's questions to satisfaction. Those of you who have
not written to me to obtain answers will have to be reminded that
you've had a chance to do so for an entire year. That's long enough.
martin, i hope, will remind you that you COULD HAVE ASKED ME FOR
UP TO A YEAR, BUT DID NOT. So don't bother him or me anymore with your
questions here: you have had months to ask me at elect...@aol.com.
That email address has been published everywhere now, and honest folks
are getting their answers. YOU wouldn't bother to do that.
Thanks to EVERYONE WHO MADE HONEST INQUIRIES-- you give me the
strength to go on! Your moral support, your kindness, and
especially, your concern, mean a lot. God bless you all.
I now must depart from posting on the newsgroups. I appreciate your
patience and apologize for posting so much. I knew my window of time
to post would be severely limited: now it is closed.
Happy new year. My hope is that the children and grandchildren of
Lee Oswald will be able to one day lift their heads without shame.
Their father was a good man. The book will establish that fact.
===Judyth Vary Baker====
john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c2fe755...@news.newsguy.com>...
James K. Olmstead
"third person". It has been my experience that Judyth's claims that her
email or newsgroup posts are in fact a major concern to her. She has a
style
of correspondance that at times drives you nuts....trying to figure out if
this is really her, one of "her team" or a hijacked posting.
Over the last week there has been several posts that cause me some
concern on who exactly is posting or emailing. I have informed her of
my concerns in the past.....and feel in all fairness some points should be
raised to warn followers and lurkers that not all posts seem "kosher".
Any post that contains the following style should be watched if they
appear from Judyth:
> IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT JUDYTH EXPRESSED LOVE AND ADMIRATION FOR MARY
> FERRELL. NOW WHEN JUDYTH MUST DEFEND HERSELF FROM FERRELL'S ATTACK,
> JOHN 'LOO' MCADAMS LABELS HER DEFENSE AS AN 'ATTACK.'
This post can be from her....but one still has to watch carefully what is
being
said and how.
John has alot of enemies on the internet and it can be "assumed" that
individuals
may be taking some advantage her....but then Judyth does not really consider
John a close friend....so one must be carefull.
It is important that Judyth be allowed to present her "defense" and my hats
off
to John for providing the opportunity...without censure. (at least none that
is known)
BTW thanks for the holiday card from all the moderators.
Also in all emails where Judyth has mentioned Mary to me....she has shown
her nothing but respect for Mary's work. Mary used to post alot of
interesting
material on the internet and was a welcomed addition to any thread....I've
never met her.....but I do not see how anyone could not like her.
I do not consider any response by Judyth to be any " public attack" on my
work or postings. I would like to suggest that everyone take into
considerations
years of attacks on her story.....without the insight as to what it
contains.
I do not plan to walk on eggs in any exchange with her...but I do plan to
give her the opportunity to express herself..
HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL
This next year advances can be made by all into a better understanding of
the
events of 1963.
James K. Olmstead
"Judyth V. Baker" <elect...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ba6b02a7.01123...@posting.google.com...
Martin Shackelford
phony claim that the research was done BEFORE she wrote her account--it
was done after, John. Reality is never going to conform to your biased
assumptions.
Martin
GMcNally
There's deep pathos in the turn this ugly discussion has taken.
Apparently Judyth will stop at nothing to harm those who stand in her
way.
I hope that the last card has been played and this back-and-forth with
Martin and Judyth will not continue into the new year.
Enough!
Jerry
Martin Shackelford
The newsgroup needs more contributers like you.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
victory and tells the other side to stop posting.
It's not happening.
Martin
John McAdams
wrote:
>i AM GOING TO MAKE ONE ANSWER, AND THAT'S ALL THE TIME AND STRENGTH I
>HAVE LEFT, TO YOUR STATEMENT ABOUT MY GETTING A JOB FLIPPING BURGERS.
>YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOK. WHEN YOU DO, EVERYTHING WILL BECOME CLEAR
>TO YOU. UNTIL THEN, CONTINUE YOUR RIDICULOUS SPECULATIONS. YOU MAKE
>MOUNTAINS OUT OF MOLEHILLS.
[Nasty rhetoric from the Nuthouse deleted]
So basically Judyth punts.
Faced with a vastly implausible element in her story, she does the
usual Shackelford Shuffle and fails to answer.
Then she follows with nasty invective inappropriate for the moderated
newsgroup.
>
>john.m...@marquette.edu (John McAdams) wrote in message news:<3c2fda46...@news.newsguy.com>...
Doesn't make any sense.
John McAdams
wrote:
Note this absurdly windy response to my question which could have been
answered with a simple "I meant used; it was a typo."
--
James K. Olmstead
There is alot to learn and when one stops learning they stop living.
jko
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:3C314BF7...@concentric.net...
alle...@webtv.net
involvemnet with Lee during your time with him. Maybe now that you have
decided to cease bickering with the "Shark" , you will finally published
the book so I can add it to my collection. As for the "Shark" , I still am
waiting for his answer about Marie Hyde and Lee. Does John still dispute
that it was not her with Lee and that the Naman and Kramer pictures were
buried from the WC ? Can John dispute the fact that Marie was married to
the OSS chief, Dulles long time friend? Allen Martin
Martin Shackelford
When you ask for more from Judyth, and she doesn't provide it, you
accuse of us "concealing evidence." When she replies at length, you
dismiss it as "this absurdly windy response." Your agenda is apparent.
Martin
Paul Seaton
> The newsgroup needs more contributers like you.
Personal opinion, & no offence to Jim, but I think it needs more
contributors like Ms. Baker.
Think of what she brought to these tired old ng's, with their endlessly
predictable tired old 3456th re-run debates: -
Drama, poetry, emotion, family feuds, paranoia, jealousy, rage, envy,
adultery, theatrical invention, sex in a truck, science, rats, Russian
literature, impersonation, e mail fraud, more emotion, car crashes, the
complete history of Mormonism, death in a thermos, non existent holiday
destinations, mass
perjury, a wholly novel workhouse time clock arrangement, AIDS, Egyptian
Archaeology, cancer, betrayal, a wonderful glimpse into the inner
workings of the publishing industry & a crazed landlord burning stolen
jewelry on a midnight bonfire just as the police convoy arrives.
It'll be a drab ole place without the girl, God bless her.
® ާ
http://graffiti.virgin.net/paul.seaton1/jfk/eop_entry/eop.htm
--
"Get your facts first, & then you can distort them as much as you please"
(Mark Twain)
>
> Martin
>
John McAdams
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
It's one thing to actually supply the information requested, and
another to go off on a windy tangent.
.John
--
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
James K. Olmstead
attention that hers does....therefore your point is well taken.
jko
"Paul Seaton" <paul....@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:a0vdac$qod$1...@helle.btinternet.com...
JLeyden900
>WRITTEN.>Date: 12/31/2001 11:25 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <ba6b02a7.01123...@posting.google.com>
>
Ah, Dallas Redux. Looks like Platzman & Shackelford have muzzled you
again. However, for what it's worth, I thought you were doing great.
JGL
Martin Shackelford
should read her posts carefully enough to know why she's no longer
posting--she's recovering from a traffic accident, you goof.
Martin
Altasrecrd
>you
>should read her posts carefully enough to know why she's no longer
>posting--she's recovering from a traffic accident, you goof.
yeah, her injuries must be getting worse, eh?
She can post last week but not now, huh?
Hey Martin, the moon is made of green cheese, I swear.
russ & carrie burr
> More of the great "muzzle" myth. If you think she's doing so "great," you
> should read her posts carefully enough to know why she's no longer
> posting--she's recovering from a traffic accident, you goof.
>
> Martin
Tell her to take a longer rest. Anyone that accepts this alleged
"mistress" that claims to know so much about Oswald, almost 40 years after
the fact, should join her.
Or better yet post it on Harris's NG or the Nuthouse.
Russ
John Leyden
> More of the great "muzzle" myth. If you think she's doing so "great," you
> should read her posts carefully enough to know why she's no longer
> posting--she's recovering from a traffic accident, you goof.
>
> Martin
You should know by now that I read your and Judyth’s post with the
greatest care. How else do you think I catch the two of you on all
your... ah, discrepancies. For example, in her latest spate of posts,
Judyth tells us that her accident happened more than a month ago because
she discussed it with Mary Ferrell at their meeting on Dec. 10. In fact,
three days earlier she was fit enuff, she says, to help M.R. move into her
new apartment. So, she was out and about at that time and has been posting
like a banshee ever since. Now, all of a sudden, she can’t go on and
you would have us to believe that you & Platzman didn’t muzzle her.
No matter. It’s a bit late to close the barn door now.
JGL
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
the McAdams team like a sheep on this matter. Your past history tells me
you are better than that.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
that you read for what you're looking for to support your biases, and
see little else.
You're "discrepancies" hunt has been an exercise in misinterpretation,
in seeing contradictions that exist only between your assumptions, not
between anything you are attempting to discredit.
I'm hard-pressed to determine what gave you the idea that Judyth's car
was smashed into "more than a month ago." That's ridiculous.
And you can't seem to give up the idea that Howard and I control what
she posts. What tenacious faith in your own misinformation!!
Martin
GMcNally
Martin,
Seven messages from you today and all of the following type:
> I see that even your wit is escaping you.
Perhaps you see some point to the above. I see none.
What is your purpose, Martin?
Jerry
JLeyden900
>WRITTEN.
>Date: 01/04/2002 8:13 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <3C356A73...@concentric.net>
>
>I know nothing of the sort--in fact, the contents of your posts suggest
>that you read for what you're looking for to support your biases, and
>see little else.
>You're "discrepancies" hunt has been an exercise in misinterpretation,
>in seeing contradictions that exist only between your assumptions, not
>between anything you are attempting to discredit.
>I'm hard-pressed to determine what gave you the idea that Judyth's car
>was smashed into "more than a month ago." That's ridiculous.
>And you can't seem to give up the idea that Howard and I control what
>she posts. What tenacious faith in your own misinformation!!
>
>Martin
Try reading Part 4 of her recent, disgusting screed aimed at Mary Ferrell:
"Mary gave me two checks for a hundred dollars each at this time [12/10/01] to
help me with expenses due to a RUINED CAR. She even offered me a brand new
car." (No good deed goes unpunished -- at least with Judyth.)
BTW, didn't J have insurance or is she one of these irresponsible people who
drive around without it making life miserable for the rest of us?
As I've said before, Team Judyth needs to get its act together if you want
people to take you seriously.
JGL