Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
he was offered citizenship:
(131)
On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but requested his residential passport be extended .
Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the USSR?
> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> he was offered citizenship:
> (131)
> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> requested his residential passport be extended .
> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
> USSR?
> Pamela Brown
> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly. As for his suicide attempt, the report indicates that he only received four stitches, which suggests it was a minor wound and not a serious attempted suicide. Aline Mosby is mentioned, although her first name is given as "Alice". As I recall, she interviewed Oswald for about two hours; Oswald claims he refused an interview with her and another UPI reporter. No mention is made of Priscilla Johnson's interview a week or so after Aline's. No mention is made of the birthplace error on Oswald's exit visa, in which he listed it as "New Orleans, Texas, USA" (in Russian, translated by the U.S. State Dep't with "sic" next to "Texas"). According to Marina, as told to Priscilla, Lee had brought home five copies of the exit visa application, in case he made a mistake. Priscilla was not aware of this error, when I asked her about it in the late 1980s, but Marina was (possibly through her contact with Michael Eddowes). The report indicates Oswald was not debriefed by the CIA, even though Robert Webster was (extensively). - prwhitmey
>Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing >research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet >citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him >to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently >refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>he was offered citizenship:
>(131)
>On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport >office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but >requested his residential passport be extended .
> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> he was offered citizenship:
> (131)
> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> requested his residential passport be extended .
> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
> USSR?
> Pamela Brown
> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
I wrote about my brief contact with Aline Mosby in the late 1990s, and
the article is available at Clint Bradford's site:
http://www.jfk-info.com/whitmey7.htm. - prw
> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
More mindless attacks because you've decided that you need to create enemies to puff up your importance. Tilting at windmills.
> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
And as usual you have to make up false claims to create strawman arguments. You are forgetting about one very important factor. Time. At the time that Oswald got to Russian he really did want to be granted Soviet citizenship. Not so much after actually living there for a year. It's one thing to have a rosy view of some place you've never been to. The reality of living there is different.
> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
I read it long before you did.
> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> he was offered citizenship:
> (131)
> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> requested his residential passport be extended .
Look at the damn date. 1961 for Christ's sake. Oswald tried to renounce his US citizenship and gain Soviet citizenship almost immediately when he arrived in Russia.
On October 31, Oswald appeared at the United States embassy in Moscow, declaring a desire to renounce his U.S. citizenship.[35][36] Oswald told the interviewing officer at the U.S. embassy, Richard Snyder, "...that he had been a radar operator in the Marine Corps and that he had voluntarily stated to unnamed Soviet officials that as a Soviet citizen he would make known to them such information concerning the Marine Corps and his specialty as he possessed. He intimated that he might know something of special interest."[37] (Such statements led to Oswald's hardship/honorable military discharge being changed to undesirable.)[38] The Associated Press story of the defection of a U.S. Marine to the Soviet Union was reported on the front pages of some newspapers in 1959.[39] But Oswald grew bored in Minsk.[43] He wrote in his diary in January 1961: "I am starting to reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."[44] Shortly afterwards, Oswald (who had never formally renounced his U.S. citizenship) wrote to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow requesting return of his American passport, and proposing to return to the U.S. if any charges against him would be dropped.[45]
It's called a change of heart. Maybe you've never had one so you don't know what it means. But Oswald became disillusioned with Russia. It was not the worker's paradise he imagined.
You can blame it all on Minsk if you like. I prefer that explanation. Oswald wanted to live in Moscow where there is at least some cultural and intellectual life. But he was shunted off to Minsk to be a daily worker instead of being feted as a hero.
Imagine going to a Michellin 5-star restaurant and ordering the roast lamb. Three hours later the waiter comes out and asks if you still want the lamb.
> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
No, I don't object to the oversimplified study. It fulfilled its purpose at the time. I don't think we have to be limited to what was written then. Especially when they still keep the background material Top Secret for another 100 years.
> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
> USSR?
Oswald was not lying either time. He simply changed his mind. But I really don't think the Soviets were going to grant him citizenship. They were very suspicious of this fellow, but didn't want to kill him outright or expel him. That's why they sent him to Minsk to be forgotten.
> On 9 Feb 2012 11:31:59 -0500, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>> he was offered citizenship:
>> (131)
>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
>> requested his residential passport be extended .
I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which Oswald refused.
>I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this >refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I >don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which >Oswald refused.
But look at the document.
The conversation with Kudryavtsev was *post* marriage to Marina, and
*post* birth of June.
>I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this >refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I >don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which >Oswald refused.
Here you have, post-assassination, a statement from the Soviet
government that they never gave him citizenship.
> On Feb 9, 8:31 am, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>> he was offered citizenship:
>> (131)
>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
>> requested his residential passport be extended .
>> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
>> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
>> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
>> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
>> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
>> USSR?
>> Pamela Brown
>> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
> Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the
> USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly. As for his suicide
1961 is not "so quickly." It is a year later.
The initial decision was to deny Oswald citizenship.
> attempt, the report indicates that he only received four stitches, which
> suggests it was a minor wound and not a serious attempted suicide. Aline
> Mosby is mentioned, although her first name is given as "Alice". As I
> recall, she interviewed Oswald for about two hours; Oswald claims he
> refused an interview with her and another UPI reporter. No mention is
> made of Priscilla Johnson's interview a week or so after Aline's. No
> mention is made of the birthplace error on Oswald's exit visa, in which he
> listed it as "New Orleans, Texas, USA" (in Russian, translated by the U.S.
Yeah, every Russian knew that New Orleans is in Texas.
> State Dep't with "sic" next to "Texas"). According to Marina, as told to
> Priscilla, Lee had brought home five copies of the exit visa application,
> in case he made a mistake. Priscilla was not aware of this error, when I
> asked her about it in the late 1980s, but Marina was (possibly through her
> contact with Michael Eddowes). The report indicates Oswald was not
> debriefed by the CIA, even though Robert Webster was (extensively). -
> prwhitmey
See John Newman's research about the debriefing of Oswald.
>> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
>> refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I
>> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
>> Oswald refused.
> Here you have, post-assassination, a statement from the Soviet
> government that they never gave him citizenship.
Thanks for NOT answering the question and instead answering the question you wanted to be asked. I forget what they call that in classical rhetoric. The bone of contention Pamela and I had was the idea that the Soviets OFFERED Oswald citizenship. Your cite is about where they actually went ahead and actually granted it. We already knew they didn't. This is like getting confused over whether Oswald OFFERED to give classified information to the Soviets or it he actually did.
We can also argue about whether he knew anything important enough to give them. But he did tell Snyder that he made the offer. Problem is we don't know how serious he was and how credible his offer was. We know that the Soviets initially denied Oswald citizenship, but Pamela seems to think that they later had a change of heart and decided to offer him citizenship. I don't see it that way. I see it as trying to decided what to do with Oswald and double-checking to see if he was still interested in Citizenship.
> I suppose you could say it was just CYA. But it's credible, and I
> would want more than Oswald's word that he ever got an offer of Soviet
> citizenship.
I don't see it as CYA. I see it as a simple fact of what they actually did. If you want more than Oswald's word, force the CIA to release the tapes of their bugging. The Soviets never offered Oswald citizenship. They said, "First, show us what you've got and then we'll talk." Oswald had nothing exciting.
>> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
>> refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I
>> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
>> Oswald refused.
> But look at the document.
> The conversation with Kudryavtsev was *post* marriage to Marina, and
> *post* birth of June.
The events he was talking about were just after Oswald defected.
> On Feb 9, 8:31 am, Pamela Brown <pamelaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> > research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> > citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> > to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> > refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> > Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> > he was offered citizenship:
> > (131)
> > On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> > office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> > requested his residential passport be extended .
> > Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
> > LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
> > never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
> > that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
> > need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
> > USSR?
> > Pamela Brown
> > marinaenigma.blogspot.com
> Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the
> USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly.
I am currently testing the hypothesis that LHO went to USSR with the intent of committing treason by providing them with information about the U-2 that he thought they didn't have, not to become a Soviet citizen. By this hypothesis, once he had given the information, he would then want to leave. That is what occurred. He may have been offered Soviet citizenship when he went to renew his papers, and possibly when he was brought to Moscow to see Powers during his trial. He also stated at one point that he was never forced to take Soviet citizenship (words to that effect), which, under the thought that he was seriously pursuing citizenship makes no sense, but under the hypothesis of his going there with a different intent, does make sense, as he wanted to leave a door open to leave.
> > On 9 Feb 2012 11:31:59 -0500, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> >> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> >> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> >> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> >> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> >> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> >> he was offered citizenship:
> >> (131)
> >> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> >> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> >> requested his residential passport be extended .
> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
> refers only to the INITIAL decision.
What LHO seemed to object to when he initially went to the USSR was that he was told to leave, not that he was offered or not offered citizenship initially per se. If we follow my hypothesis that LHO was there to commit treason, not to become a citizen, the 'suicide attempt' makes sense.
>She is talking about a later offer. I
> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
> Oswald refused.
It is possible that LHO was offered Soviet citizenship, or at least believed that door was open to him, both when he went to renew his papers and when he was brought to Moscow to see Powers. But that was not what he wanted.
On Feb 9, 2:49 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 2/9/2012 11:31 AM, Pamela Brown wrote:
> > Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> More mindless attacks because you've decided that you need to create
> enemies to puff up your importance. Tilting at windmills.
Excuse me? Don't you regularly tell others to do their homework?
Have you even bothered to read the HSCA Defector Study with the link
that I posted?
> > research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> > citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> And as usual you have to make up false claims to create strawman
> arguments.
Not so. Is it not you who claimed that LHO wanted citizenship in
exchange for secrets? By my hypothesis, that is a strawman.
You are forgetting about one very important factor. Time. At
> the time that Oswald got to Russian he really did want to be granted
> Soviet citizenship.
I disagree. He was told he had to leave the USSR. It is that that
prompted his 'suicide attempt'. That is not the same as being granted
citizenship.
>Not so much after actually living there for a year.
I disagree. LHO sent a letter to Snyder that December that apparently
he didn't receive. It is possible LHO intended to leave when he had
conveyed the 'secret' information.
> It's one thing to have a rosy view of some place you've never been to. The
> reality of living there is different.
That is a nice excuse, the kind WC defenders love to make about LHO.
I don't think it applies.
> > to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> > refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> I read it long before you did.
If you read it with comprehension, how did you miss what it said?
> > Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> > he was offered citizenship:
> > (131)
> > On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> > office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> > requested his residential passport be extended .
> Look at the damn date. 1961 for Christ's sake. Oswald tried to renounce
> his US citizenship and gain Soviet citizenship almost immediately when he
> arrived in Russia.
"Tried"? Not very hard. He made a big stink at the US Embassy
office, certainly loud enough for those bugging it to overhear that he
had secret information to convey to the Soviets. But he didn't follow
through. Not initially. Not at all.
> On October 31, Oswald appeared at the United States embassy in Moscow,
> declaring a desire to renounce his U.S. citizenship.[35][36] Oswald told
> the interviewing officer at the U.S. embassy, Richard Snyder, "...that he
> had been a radar operator in the Marine Corps and that he had voluntarily
> stated to unnamed Soviet officials that as a Soviet citizen he would make
> known to them such information concerning the Marine Corps and his
> specialty as he possessed. He intimated that he might know something of
> special interest."[37] (Such statements led to Oswald's hardship/honorable
> military discharge being changed to undesirable.)[38] The Associated Press
> story of the defection of a U.S. Marine to the Soviet Union was reported
> on the front pages of some newspapers in 1959.[39] But Oswald grew bored
> in Minsk.[43] He wrote in his diary in January 1961: "I am starting to
> reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has
> nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of
> recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."[44] Shortly
> afterwards, Oswald (who had never formally renounced his U.S. citizenship)
> wrote to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow requesting return of his American
> passport, and proposing to return to the U.S. if any charges against him
> would be dropped.[45]
> It's called a change of heart.
I disagree. It is called a strategy. I think LHO may have had one.
Citizenship in Russia was not a part of it.
Maybe you've never had one so you don't
> know what it means.
Unfair and untrue. How else could I have put up with all your wacky
theories? Well, maybe that takes a sense of humor. :-)
>But Oswald became disillusioned with Russia. It was
> not the worker's paradise he imagined.
Convenient excuse, but doesn't take into account the fact that he
never really tried to obtain citizenship in the USSR. He just made a
big stink about it.
> You can blame it all on Minsk if you like. I prefer that explanation.
> Oswald wanted to live in Moscow where there is at least some cultural and
> intellectual life. But he was shunted off to Minsk to be a daily worker
> instead of being feted as a hero.
I think he may have had another objective all along. He was using the
Soviets to get what he really wanted.
> Imagine going to a Michellin 5-star restaurant and ordering the roast
> lamb. Three hours later the waiter comes out and asks if you still want
> the lamb.
I have been to the Hofbrau House in Munich, where, I believe, Hitler
spoke. I was the only one wearing a USS John F. Kennedy cap. I
ordered my meal. Everyone around me was served, but I was not. I was
charged for the meal though. I know exactly how that feels. And no,
I did not end up paying for something I did not receive.
In LHO's case, we know that he made a big stink about giving secret
information to the Soviets. He did not really renounce his
citizenship, which he reminded Snyder of when he wanted to return. I
think the door should be left open to the possibility that citizenship
in USSR was not what he wanted, and that he may have had another plan.
> >I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
> >refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I
> >don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
> >Oswald refused.
> Here you have, post-assassination, a statement from the Soviet
> government that they never gave him citizenship.
Whatever the USSR said after the assassination must be weighed in
light of the implications of LHO having any tangible connection with
the Russians or having been of any interest to them.
> I suppose you could say it was just CYA. But it's credible, and I
> would want more than Oswald's word that he ever got an offer of Soviet
> citizenship.
Just the same, LHO did stay in USSR, did not renounce his US citizenship, and left the door open to return, which he then did. If we take as an hypothesis that citizenship in USSR was not what he was after, the entire picture changes.
> On Feb 9, 2:36 pm, Canuck<prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 9, 8:31 am, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
>>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
>>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
>>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
>>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>>> he was offered citizenship:
>>> (131)
>>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
>>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
>>> requested his residential passport be extended .
>>> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
>>> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
>>> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
>>> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
>>> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
>>> USSR?
>>> Pamela Brown
>>> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
>> Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the
>> USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly.
> I am currently testing the hypothesis that LHO went to USSR with the
> intent of committing treason by providing them with information about the
> U-2 that he thought they didn't have, not to become a Soviet citizen. By
Sure, that sounds like fun. Many wannabe spies think they know something that no one else knows and try to make money out of it.
Like all the Cuban exiles trying to get money from Miami reporters by telling them that the CIA was trying to kill Castro, like Castro didn't already know.
> this hypothesis, once he had given the information, he would then want to
> leave. That is what occurred. He may have been offered Soviet
No. Oswald did not leave immediately. He wanted to live in Moscow, but they shipped him off to Minsk. He was lucky they didn't send him to Siberia.
> citizenship when he went to renew his papers, and possibly when he was
> brought to Moscow to see Powers during his trial. He also stated at one
> point that he was never forced to take Soviet citizenship (words to that
> effect), which, under the thought that he was seriously pursuing
> citizenship makes no sense, but under the hypothesis of his going there
> with a different intent, does make sense, as he wanted to leave a door
> open to leave.
He also never went through with his threat to revoke his US citizenship.
> > On Feb 9, 2:36 pm, Canuck<prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On Feb 9, 8:31 am, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> >>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> >>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> >>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> >>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> >>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> >>> he was offered citizenship:
> >>> (131)
> >>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> >>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> >>> requested his residential passport be extended .
> >>> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
> >>> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
> >>> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
> >>> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
> >>> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
> >>> USSR?
> >>> Pamela Brown
> >>> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
> >> Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the
> >> USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly.
> > I am currently testing the hypothesis that LHO went to USSR with the
> > intent of committing treason by providing them with information about the
> > U-2 that he thought they didn't have, not to become a Soviet citizen. By
> Sure, that sounds like fun. Many wannabe spies think they know something
> that no one else knows and try to make money out of it.
I don't think he did it for money. I think that is a rabbit trail.
> Like all the Cuban exiles trying to get money from Miami reporters by
> telling them that the CIA was trying to kill Castro, like Castro didn't
> already know.
> > this hypothesis, once he had given the information, he would then want to
> > leave. That is what occurred. He may have been offered Soviet
> No. Oswald did not leave immediately.
He said he sent a letter to Snyder in December, 1960.
.He wanted to live in Moscow, but
> they shipped him off to Minsk. He was lucky they didn't send him to
> Siberia.
That is secondary to the fact that he never even followed through with his threat at the US embassy to revoke his US citizenship. If h were serious, why would he not do that?
> > citizenship when he went to renew his papers, and possibly when he was
> > brought to Moscow to see Powers during his trial. He also stated at one
> > point that he was never forced to take Soviet citizenship (words to that
> > effect), which, under the thought that he was seriously pursuing
> > citizenship makes no sense, but under the hypothesis of his going there
> > with a different intent, does make sense, as he wanted to leave a door
> > open to leave.
> He also never went through with his threat to revoke his US citizenship.
Exactly. He made a big stink, then a half-hearted attempt, then turned tail and wanted to return to the US, for the time being anyway.
You seem to think LHO was incapable of having a plan that used both governments. I don't.
>>> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
>>> refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I
>>> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
>>> Oswald refused.
>> Here you have, post-assassination, a statement from the Soviet
>> government that they never gave him citizenship.
> Whatever the USSR said after the assassination must be weighed in
> light of the implications of LHO having any tangible connection with
> the Russians or having been of any interest to them.
You have to separate all those various elements of the story.
The Soviets lied about not having any interest in Oswald.
They told the truth about not recruiting him or using him.
They told the truth about not granting him citizenship.
>> I suppose you could say it was just CYA. But it's credible, and I
>> would want more than Oswald's word that he ever got an offer of Soviet
>> citizenship.
> Just the same, LHO did stay in USSR, did not renounce his US citizenship,
> and left the door open to return, which he then did. If we take as an
> hypothesis that citizenship in USSR was not what he was after, the entire
> picture changes.
> On Feb 9, 2:49 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 2/9/2012 11:31 AM, Pamela Brown wrote:
>>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
>> More mindless attacks because you've decided that you need to create
>> enemies to puff up your importance. Tilting at windmills.
> Excuse me? Don't you regularly tell others to do their homework?
> Have you even bothered to read the HSCA Defector Study with the link
> that I posted?
As I said, I read it long before you did.
>>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
>>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
>> And as usual you have to make up false claims to create strawman
>> arguments.
> Not so. Is it not you who claimed that LHO wanted citizenship in
> exchange for secrets? By my hypothesis, that is a strawman.
Offered. I didn't make that up from my imagination. It's what Oswald himself said.
Your hypothesis would see it as a ruse.
> You are forgetting about one very important factor. Time. At
>> the time that Oswald got to Russian he really did want to be granted
>> Soviet citizenship.
> I disagree. He was told he had to leave the USSR. It is that that
> prompted his 'suicide attempt'. That is not the same as being granted
> citizenship.
What you said has nothing to do with what I said.
>> Not so much after actually living there for a year.
> I disagree. LHO sent a letter to Snyder that December that apparently
> he didn't receive. It is possible LHO intended to leave when he had
> conveyed the 'secret' information.
Conveying what secret information and how? By writing it in his diary?
>> It's one thing to have a rosy view of some place you've never been to. The
>> reality of living there is different.
> That is a nice excuse, the kind WC defenders love to make about LHO.
> I don't think it applies.
>>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
>>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>> I read it long before you did.
> If you read it with comprehension, how did you miss what it said?
>>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>>> he was offered citizenship:
>>> (131)
>>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
>>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
>>> requested his residential passport be extended .
>> Look at the damn date. 1961 for Christ's sake. Oswald tried to renounce
>> his US citizenship and gain Soviet citizenship almost immediately when he
>> arrived in Russia.
> "Tried"? Not very hard. He made a big stink at the US Embassy
> office, certainly loud enough for those bugging it to overhear that he
> had secret information to convey to the Soviets. But he didn't follow
> through. Not initially. Not at all.
Did he say the word "Secret" or is that your guess? But that couldn't be about the U-2 because that project was the highest Top Secret.
>> On October 31, Oswald appeared at the United States embassy in Moscow,
>> declaring a desire to renounce his U.S. citizenship.[35][36] Oswald told
>> the interviewing officer at the U.S. embassy, Richard Snyder, "...that he
>> had been a radar operator in the Marine Corps and that he had voluntarily
>> stated to unnamed Soviet officials that as a Soviet citizen he would make
>> known to them such information concerning the Marine Corps and his
>> specialty as he possessed. He intimated that he might know something of
>> special interest."[37] (Such statements led to Oswald's hardship/honorable
>> military discharge being changed to undesirable.)[38] The Associated Press
>> story of the defection of a U.S. Marine to the Soviet Union was reported
>> on the front pages of some newspapers in 1959.[39] But Oswald grew bored
>> in Minsk.[43] He wrote in his diary in January 1961: "I am starting to
>> reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has
>> nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of
>> recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."[44] Shortly
>> afterwards, Oswald (who had never formally renounced his U.S. citizenship)
>> wrote to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow requesting return of his American
>> passport, and proposing to return to the U.S. if any charges against him
>> would be dropped.[45]
>> It's called a change of heart.
> I disagree. It is called a strategy. I think LHO may have had one.
> Citizenship in Russia was not a part of it.
You can call it a bargaining chip. In the trade it is called a dangle.
> Maybe you've never had one so you don't
>> know what it means.
> Unfair and untrue. How else could I have put up with all your wacky
> theories? Well, maybe that takes a sense of humor. :-)
>> But Oswald became disillusioned with Russia. It was
>> not the worker's paradise he imagined.
> Convenient excuse, but doesn't take into account the fact that he
> never really tried to obtain citizenship in the USSR. He just made a
> big stink about it.
>> You can blame it all on Minsk if you like. I prefer that explanation.
>> Oswald wanted to live in Moscow where there is at least some cultural and
>> intellectual life. But he was shunted off to Minsk to be a daily worker
>> instead of being feted as a hero.
> I think he may have had another objective all along. He was using the
> Soviets to get what he really wanted.
>> Imagine going to a Michellin 5-star restaurant and ordering the roast
>> lamb. Three hours later the waiter comes out and asks if you still want
>> the lamb.
> I have been to the Hofbrau House in Munich, where, I believe, Hitler
> spoke. I was the only one wearing a USS John F. Kennedy cap. I
> ordered my meal. Everyone around me was served, but I was not. I was
> charged for the meal though. I know exactly how that feels. And no,
> I did not end up paying for something I did not receive.
> In LHO's case, we know that he made a big stink about giving secret
> information to the Soviets. He did not really renounce his
> citizenship, which he reminded Snyder of when he wanted to return. I
So you admit that he wanted to return. Why didn't he return right after Powers was downed if THAT was his mission? If he was so successful in helping bring down Powers then surely the KGB would have moved him to Moscow to use for future flights.
> think the door should be left open to the possibility that citizenship
> in USSR was not what he wanted, and that he may have had another plan.
Keep me posted. Please post the documents you get declassified.
> On Feb 9, 6:54 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 2/9/2012 3:47 PM, John McAdams wrote:
>>> On 9 Feb 2012 11:31:59 -0500, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
>>>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
>>>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
>>>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
>>>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>>>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>>>> he was offered citizenship:
>>>> (131)
>>>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
>>>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
>>>> requested his residential passport be extended .
>> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
>> refers only to the INITIAL decision.
> What LHO seemed to object to when he initially went to the USSR was that
> he was told to leave, not that he was offered or not offered citizenship
> initially per se. If we follow my hypothesis that LHO was there to commit
> treason, not to become a citizen, the 'suicide attempt' makes sense.
>> She is talking about a later offer. I
>> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
>> Oswald refused.
> It is possible that LHO was offered Soviet citizenship, or at least
> believed that door was open to him, both when he went to renew his papers
> and when he was brought to Moscow to see Powers. But that was not what he
> wanted.
You assert something without offering any proof of it. Prove that someone brought him to Moscow just to see Powers.
> On Feb 10, 6:49 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 2/10/2012 10:35 AM, Pamela Brown wrote:
>>> On Feb 9, 2:36 pm, Canuck<prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 9, 8:31 am, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
>>>>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
>>>>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
>>>>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
>>>>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
>>>>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
>>>>> he was offered citizenship:
>>>>> (131)
>>>>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
>>>>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
>>>>> requested his residential passport be extended .
>>>>> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
>>>>> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
>>>>> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
>>>>> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
>>>>> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
>>>>> USSR?
>>>>> Pamela Brown
>>>>> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
>>>> Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the
>>>> USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly.
>>> I am currently testing the hypothesis that LHO went to USSR with the
>>> intent of committing treason by providing them with information about the
>>> U-2 that he thought they didn't have, not to become a Soviet citizen. By
>> Sure, that sounds like fun. Many wannabe spies think they know something
>> that no one else knows and try to make money out of it.
> I don't think he did it for money. I think that is a rabbit trail.
>> Like all the Cuban exiles trying to get money from Miami reporters by
>> telling them that the CIA was trying to kill Castro, like Castro didn't
>> already know.
>>> this hypothesis, once he had given the information, he would then want to
>>> leave. That is what occurred. He may have been offered Soviet
>> No. Oswald did not leave immediately.
> He said he sent a letter to Snyder in December, 1960.
> .He wanted to live in Moscow, but
>> they shipped him off to Minsk. He was lucky they didn't send him to
>> Siberia.
> That is secondary to the fact that he never even followed through with his
> threat at the US embassy to revoke his US citizenship. If h were serious,
> why would he not do that?
Because the Soviets did not grant him citizenship.
>>> citizenship when he went to renew his papers, and possibly when he was
>>> brought to Moscow to see Powers during his trial. He also stated at one
>>> point that he was never forced to take Soviet citizenship (words to that
>>> effect), which, under the thought that he was seriously pursuing
>>> citizenship makes no sense, but under the hypothesis of his going there
>>> with a different intent, does make sense, as he wanted to leave a door
>>> open to leave.
>> He also never went through with his threat to revoke his US citizenship.
> Exactly. He made a big stink, then a half-hearted attempt, then turned
> tail and wanted to return to the US, for the time being anyway.
> You seem to think LHO was incapable of having a plan that used both
> governments. I don't.
> >>> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
> >>> refers only to the INITIAL decision. She is talking about a later offer. I
> >>> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
> >>> Oswald refused.
> >> Here you have, post-assassination, a statement from the Soviet
> >> government that they never gave him citizenship.
> > Whatever the USSR said after the assassination must be weighed in
> > light of the implications of LHO having any tangible connection with
> > the Russians or having been of any interest to them.
> You have to separate all those various elements of the story.
That's only part of it.
> The Soviets lied about not having any interest in Oswald.
Agreed. But I think they were interested in the secret information
LHO promised to provide. You don't.
> They told the truth about not recruiting him or using him.
If he did transmit information that was used to help shoot down
Powers' U-2, that is not exactly true. Agreed he was not recruited as
a spy.
> They told the truth about not granting him citizenship.
They may not have told the whole truth. That would be a typical Soviet
trick.
LHO may have been offered it and declined.
On Feb 11, 7:13 am, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> On 2/10/2012 4:55 PM, Pamela Brown wrote:
> > On Feb 9, 2:49 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 2/9/2012 11:31 AM, Pamela Brown wrote:
> >>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> >> More mindless attacks because you've decided that you need to create
> >> enemies to puff up your importance. Tilting at windmills.
> > Excuse me? Don't you regularly tell others to do their homework?
> > Have you even bothered to read the HSCA Defector Study with the link
> > that I posted?
> As I said, I read it long before you did.
"Saying" is one thing; demonstrating is another.
You have evidenced no understanding of the fact that the HSCA did not seem to find it implausible that LHO was offered citizenship and turned it down. This statement is anathema to the WC defenders and others who think LHO went to the USSR to become a citizen. You attempted to block discussion of this point. If you knew what you were blocking, that is all the more puzzling.
> >>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> >>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> >> And as usual you have to make up false claims to create strawman
> >> arguments.
> > Not so. Is it not you who claimed that LHO wanted citizenship in
> > exchange for secrets? By my hypothesis, that is a strawman.
> Offered. I didn't make that up from my imagination. It's what Oswald
> himself said.
You refuse to accept what LHO said about being offered citizenship and
refusing and yet accept something else you think he said?
> Your hypothesis would see it as a ruse.
What LHO did on his arrival in Moscow was not clearcut. It takes
insight to get all, or most, of the pieces to fall into place.
> > You are forgetting about one very important factor. Time. At
> >> the time that Oswald got to Russian he really did want to be granted
> >> Soviet citizenship.
> > I disagree. He was told he had to leave the USSR. It is that that
> > prompted his 'suicide attempt'. That is not the same as being granted
> > citizenship.
> What you said has nothing to do with what I said
Well then you and I disagree that he ever really wanted citizenship.
I think that was a ruse.
> >> Not so much after actually living there for a year.
> > I disagree. LHO sent a letter to Snyder that December that apparently
> > he didn't receive. It is possible LHO intended to leave when he had
> > conveyed the 'secret' information.
> Conveying what secret information and how? By writing it in his diary?
Why are you playing tabulae rasa? We have already discussed this. He yelled at Snyder that he had secret information to give the Soviets, making sure it was loud enough to be picked up by the bugs at the Embassy.
They could have followed up on that.
> >> It's one thing to have a rosy view of some place you've never been to. The
> >> reality of living there is different.
> > That is a nice excuse, the kind WC defenders love to make about LHO.
> > I don't think it applies.
> >>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> >>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> >> I read it long before you did.
> > If you read it with comprehension, how did you miss what it said?
> I didn't miss anything. You didn't have a point.
I do have a point. It just demolishes yours so you don't like it.
> >>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> >>> he was offered citizenship:
> >>> (131)
> >>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> >>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> >>> requested his residential passport be extended .
> >> Look at the damn date. 1961 for Christ's sake. Oswald tried to renounce
> >> his US citizenship and gain Soviet citizenship almost immediately when he
> >> arrived in Russia.
> > "Tried"? Not very hard. He made a big stink at the US Embassy
> > office, certainly loud enough for those bugging it to overhear that he
> > had secret information to convey to the Soviets. But he didn't follow
> > through. Not initially. Not at all.
> Did he say the word "Secret" or is that your guess? But that couldn't be
> about the U-2 because that project was the highest Top Secret.
I think McVickar said he used that word. U-2 was not a secret to LHO.
He tracked them as a radar operator at Atsugi. Who knows what else he picked up.
I have held a brick from one of the space shuttles. I have no clearance whatsoever. I can describe its weight and feel and texture. That information in some places might not be common knowledge.
LHO could have heard or experienced secret information about the U-2.
> >> On October 31, Oswald appeared at the United States embassy in Moscow,
> >> declaring a desire to renounce his U.S. citizenship.[35][36] Oswald told
> >> the interviewing officer at the U.S. embassy, Richard Snyder, "...that he
> >> had been a radar operator in the Marine Corps and that he had voluntarily
> >> stated to unnamed Soviet officials that as a Soviet citizen he would make
> >> known to them such information concerning the Marine Corps and his
> >> specialty as he possessed. He intimated that he might know something of
> >> special interest."[37] (Such statements led to Oswald's hardship/honorable
> >> military discharge being changed to undesirable.)[38] The Associated Press
> >> story of the defection of a U.S. Marine to the Soviet Union was reported
> >> on the front pages of some newspapers in 1959.[39] But Oswald grew bored
> >> in Minsk.[43] He wrote in his diary in January 1961: "I am starting to
> >> reconsider my desire about staying. The work is drab, the money I get has
> >> nowhere to be spent. No nightclubs or bowling alleys, no places of
> >> recreation except the trade union dances. I have had enough."[44] Shortly
> >> afterwards, Oswald (who had never formally renounced his U.S. citizenship)
> >> wrote to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow requesting return of his American
> >> passport, and proposing to return to the U.S. if any charges against him
> >> would be dropped.[45]
> >> It's called a change of heart.
> > I disagree. It is called a strategy. I think LHO may have had one.
> > Citizenship in Russia was not a part of it.
> You can call it a bargaining chip. In the trade it is called a dangle.
There is no 'trade'. LHO was not a spy. He may have been a traitor.
If anything, he 'dangled' himself.
> > Maybe you've never had one so you don't
> >> know what it means.
> > Unfair and untrue. How else could I have put up with all your wacky
> > theories? Well, maybe that takes a sense of humor. :-)
> >> But Oswald became disillusioned with Russia. It was
> >> not the worker's paradise he imagined.
> > Convenient excuse, but doesn't take into account the fact that he
> > never really tried to obtain citizenship in the USSR. He just made a
> > big stink about it.
> He made the offer.
And did nothing to follow through with it. Half-hearted at best;
perhaps just a ruse.
> >> You can blame it all on Minsk if you like. I prefer that explanation.
> >> Oswald wanted to live in Moscow where there is at least some cultural and
> >> intellectual life. But he was shunted off to Minsk to be a daily worker
> >> instead of being feted as a hero.
> > I think he may have had another objective all along. He was using the
> > Soviets to get what he really wanted.
> >> Imagine going to a Michellin 5-star restaurant and ordering the roast
> >> lamb. Three hours later the waiter comes out and asks if you still want
> >> the lamb.
> > I have been to the Hofbrau House in Munich, where, I believe, Hitler
> > spoke. I was the only one wearing a USS John F. Kennedy cap. I
> > ordered my meal. Everyone around me was served, but I was not. I was
> > charged for the meal though. I know exactly how that feels. And no,
> > I did not end up paying for something I did not receive.
> > In LHO's case, we know that he made a big stink about giving secret
> > information to the Soviets. He did not really renounce his
> > citizenship, which he reminded Snyder of when he wanted to return. I
> So you admit that he wanted to return.
What are you talking about? In my hypothesis he always intended to
return.
> Why didn't he return right after
> Powers was downed if THAT was his mission?
He sent a letter to Snyder that December.
If he was so successful in
> helping bring down Powers then surely the KGB would have moved him to
> Moscow to use for future flights.
False assumption -- the military had already taken action to correct whatever damage LHO had done. That is why his discharge was downgraded.
They knew the Sovets were onto them. Unless LHO had returned to Atsugi, or someplace with U-2's, I doubt they thought he could provide any more information of value.
> > think the door should be left open to the possibility that citizenship
> > in USSR was not what he wanted, and that he may have had another plan.
> Keep me posted. Please post the documents you get declassified.
Why not look at LHO himself? In my hypothesis, if I am correct, all the dominos will fall. We will understand his motivation for all, or nearly all, of the decisions he made.
Nobody has been able to provide a motive for LHO's actions. Maybe they just didn't try hard enough.
> > On Feb 9, 6:54 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 2/9/2012 3:47 PM, John McAdams wrote:
> >>> On 9 Feb 2012 11:31:59 -0500, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> >>>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> >>>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> >>>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> >>>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> >>>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> >>>> he was offered citizenship:
> >>>> (131)
> >>>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> >>>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> >>>> requested his residential passport be extended .
> >> I don't want to speak for Pamela, but I think her point is that this
> >> refers only to the INITIAL decision.
> > What LHO seemed to object to when he initially went to the USSR was that
> > he was told to leave, not that he was offered or not offered citizenship
> > initially per se. If we follow my hypothesis that LHO was there to commit
> > treason, not to become a citizen, the 'suicide attempt' makes sense.
> >> She is talking about a later offer. I
> >> don't see the later offer as serious, just a pro forma checkback which
> >> Oswald refused.
> > It is possible that LHO was offered Soviet citizenship, or at least
> > believed that door was open to him, both when he went to renew his papers
> > and when he was brought to Moscow to see Powers. But that was not what he
> > wanted.
> You assert something without offering any proof of it. Prove that
> someone brought him to Moscow just to see Powers.
"Just" to see Powers? I didn't say that. LHO said he saw Powers,
which meant he was in Moscow during the trial.
> > On Feb 10, 6:49 pm, Anthony Marsh<anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
> >> On 2/10/2012 10:35 AM, Pamela Brown wrote:
> >>> On Feb 9, 2:36 pm, Canuck<prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Feb 9, 8:31 am, Pamela Brown<pamelaj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> Anthony Marsh, who appears to enjoy chastizing others for not doing
> >>>>> research, has made repeated claims that LHO would have accepted Soviet
> >>>>> citizenship if offerred to him, and that it was not. I have referred him
> >>>>> to the HSCA defector report on numerous occasions, but he apparently
> >>>>> refuses to read it. Instead, he makes up silly claims.
> >>>>> Let's help him out. Here is a passage that discusses LHO saying that
> >>>>> he was offered citizenship:
> >>>>> (131)
> >>>>> On January 4, 1961. Oswald wrote that he was called into the passport
> >>>>> office and asked if he wanted Soviet citizenship. He said no,-- but
> >>>>> requested his residential passport be extended .
> >>>>> Of course, Anthony may attempt to object to this statement, saying that
> >>>>> LHO lied. Nevertheless, LHO did remain in the USSR for some time and
> >>>>> never became a Soviet citizen. And there is nothing in the defector study
> >>>>> that claims LHO was lying when he made that statement. So doesn't the door
> >>>>> need to remain open as to whether this was at his choice or that of the
> >>>>> USSR?
> >>>>> Pamela Brown
> >>>>> marinaenigma.blogspot.com
> >>>> Thanks for providing this report, Pamela. It's hard to believe that the
> >>>> USSR would offer Oswald citizenship so quickly.
> >>> I am currently testing the hypothesis that LHO went to USSR with the
> >>> intent of committing treason by providing them with information about the
> >>> U-2 that he thought they didn't have, not to become a Soviet citizen. By
> >> Sure, that sounds like fun. Many wannabe spies think they know something
> >> that no one else knows and try to make money out of it.
> > I don't think he did it for money. I think that is a rabbit trail.
> >> Like all the Cuban exiles trying to get money from Miami reporters by
> >> telling them that the CIA was trying to kill Castro, like Castro didn't
> >> already know.
> >>> this hypothesis, once he had given the information, he would then want to
> >>> leave. That is what occurred. He may have been offered Soviet
> >> No. Oswald did not leave immediately.
> > He said he sent a letter to Snyder in December, 1960.
> > .He wanted to live in Moscow, but
> >> they shipped him off to Minsk. He was lucky they didn't send him to
> >> Siberia.
> > That is secondary to the fact that he never even followed through with his
> > threat at the US embassy to revoke his US citizenship. If h were serious,
> > why would he not do that?
> Because the Soviets did not grant him citizenship.
> >>> citizenship when he went to renew his papers, and possibly when he was
> >>> brought to Moscow to see Powers during his trial. He also stated at one
> >>> point that he was never forced to take Soviet citizenship (words to that
> >>> effect), which, under the thought that he was seriously pursuing
> >>> citizenship makes no sense, but under the hypothesis of his going there
> >>> with a different intent, does make sense, as he wanted to leave a door
> >>> open to leave.
> >> He also never went through with his threat to revoke his US citizenship.
> > Exactly. He made a big stink, then a half-hearted attempt, then turned
> > tail and wanted to return to the US, for the time being anyway.
> > You seem to think LHO was incapable of having a plan that used both
> > governments. I don't.
