Photos of clip in W.C. volume XVII (CE 574-5): C2766 or C14?

[Canuck]

Two photos of an ammunition clip are shown in volume XVII, CE 574-575, supposedly from the C2766 rifle (Oswald's), one loaded with six cartridges and the other empty. However, the description under each photo refers to a "clip from C14 rifle." What does "C14" stand for? - prwhitmey

[Herbert Blenner]

On Apr 26, 9:16 am, Canuck <prwhit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Two photos of an ammunition clip are shown in volume XVII, CE 574-575, supposedly from the C2766 rifle (Oswald's), one loaded with six cartridges and the other empty.  However, the description under each photo refers to a "clip from C14 rifle."  What does "C14" stand for? - prwhitmey

The FBI lab assigned the number, C14, to the rifle bearing the serial
number of C2766.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0414a.htm

[John Fiorentino]

C14 was the FBI's evidence identification.

John F.

"Canuck" <prwh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fa286dcf-4a70-42fd...@googlegroups.com...

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/26/2013 9:16 AM, Canuck wrote:
> Two photos of an ammunition clip are shown in volume XVII, CE 574-575, supposedly from the C2766 rifle (Oswald's), one loaded with six cartridges and the other empty. However, the description under each photo refers to a "clip from C14 rifle." What does "C14" stand for? - prwhitmey
>

"C" numbers were assigned back at the FBI lab by Robert Frazier as the
evidence came in. There is a controversy about the way the numbers were
assigned. See John Hunt's article. Frazier gave the Oswald rifle the
designation C14, which then became KNOWN as K1.

http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/mystery/fig3.jpg

[Canuck]

Thanks for the feedback, John and Tony. As I mentioned in an earlier posting (which got a lot of response), Oswald chose not to purchase 108 rounds of ammunition (which came with a free clip), when he acquired his rifle. Maybe that was primarily because he wasn't planning to fire the rifle, or at least not rapidly. When he fired at Walker, presumably he didn't have a clip, or else he probably would have been able to kill him, I'm still amazed that the late Volkmar Schmidt didn't immediately think of Oswald when he heard the news that someone had fired at Walker; I had put the question to him back in the early 1990s over the phone after first writing to him in Calgary. Maybe he mentioned his suspicions to DeMohrenschildt (whom he maintained contact after moving to Calgary in 1968 up until his death). If so, DeMohrenschildt possibly mentioned Schmidt's suspicion to Moore, his CIA contact in Dallas. (I know, it's pure speculation).

I recall the suggestion made some years ago that possibly Oswald was working for a Senate subcommittee (or thought he was) that was investigating the ease by which one could purchase a weapon, through the mail, even if you were underage. Possibly as a result of the hearings, a law was passed in early 1963 requiring anyone buying a firearm through the mail to fill out a form at the post office and paying a $1.00 fee, which would have applied to Oswald.

I know the FBI tried unsuccessfully to find out where Oswald purchased his ammunition. Did they also try to determine where the clip came from, or did they assume it came with the rifle? Since the clip could hold six bullets, why wouldn't Oswald have filled it up, or did he only have four left? Could the clip be partially filled and work properly? - prwhitmey

[Walt]

I believe the question was meant to ask...... IF C-14 is the same
rifle as the one found hidden under boxes in the TSBDwhich had the
serial number C2766 and was given the identificatin number of CE 139
by LBJ's SBRC then HOW CAN BOTH CLIPS HAVE COME FROM THAT RIFLE?.....
There was only ONE clip in the rifle and only ONE clip entered into
evidence.

Which raises an interesting point..... The WCC produced the cartridges
(spent and live) that were found at the scene.

Western Cartridge Company provided no clips with the Carcano ammo they
manufactured..... So anybody using that ammo would have to load the
cartridges into a clip. This seems a little strange because the
Italian's were smart enough to load the cartridges into clips so that
a soldier could reload his rifle very quickly after the last bullet in
a clip was fired. (He'd simply insert a full clip of six cartridges
into the magazine and be ready to fire again) But the manner in
which WCC packaged the ammo created an impossible sitiation because
without a clip there was no way to load it into the rifle.... a clip
is required or the rifle is worthless as a firearm.

Whoever in the CIA placed the order with WCC obviously was unaware
that the cartridges had to be fitted into clips. So when the
shipload of 4,000,000 bullets was manufactured and packaged it was
useless until someone put it in 666,000 clips. Where did the 666,000
clips come from?....and who repackaged the ammo?

The rifle was designed to use brass clips and the Italian's
manufactured the clip from brass and the functioned well, but when
brass became scarce there were clips made from light sheet steel
(tin) These steel clips didn't work as well as the brass clips but
they passed inspection. The Cuban exiles training for the invasion
of Castro's Cuba complained about the steel clips...... they didn't
always feed the cartridges into the bolt properly which caused
occasional jamming of the rifles.

[John Fiorentino]

We don't know where the clip came from and we don't know where he got his
ammo.

Just another part of the enigma that was LHO.

John F.




"Canuck" <prwh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:9b743392-0da8-454a...@googlegroups.com...

[Anthony Marsh]

On 4/27/2013 4:08 PM, Walt wrote:
> On Apr 26, 9:33 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 4/26/2013 9:16 AM, Canuck wrote:
>>
>>> Two photos of an ammunition clip are shown in volume XVII, CE 574-575, supposedly from the C2766 rifle (Oswald's), one loaded with six cartridges and the other empty. However, the description under each photo refers to a "clip from C14 rifle." What does "C14" stand for? - prwhitmey
>>
>> "C" numbers were assigned back at the FBI lab by Robert Frazier as the
>> evidence came in. There is a controversy about the way the numbers were
>> assigned. See John Hunt's article. Frazier gave the Oswald rifle the
>> designation C14, which then became KNOWN as K1.
>>
>> http://www.jfklancer.com/hunt/mystery/fig3.jpg
>
> I believe the question was meant to ask...... IF C-14 is the same
> rifle as the one found hidden under boxes in the TSBDwhich had the
> serial number C2766 and was given the identificatin number of CE 139
> by LBJ's SBRC then HOW CAN BOTH CLIPS HAVE COME FROM THAT RIFLE?.....
> There was only ONE clip in the rifle and only ONE clip entered into
> evidence.
>

Then why wasn't it asked that way. Why always the cryptic questions?
C-14 was Oswald's rifle. There was only one clip found, the one in
Oswald's rifle.

> Which raises an interesting point..... The WCC produced the cartridges
> (spent and live) that were found at the scene.
>
> Western Cartridge Company provided no clips with the Carcano ammo they
> manufactured..... So anybody using that ammo would have to load the
> cartridges into a clip. This seems a little strange because the
> Italian's were smart enough to load the cartridges into clips so that
> a soldier could reload his rifle very quickly after the last bullet in
> a clip was fired. (He'd simply insert a full clip of six cartridges
> into the magazine and be ready to fire again) But the manner in
> which WCC packaged the ammo created an impossible sitiation because
> without a clip there was no way to load it into the rifle.... a clip
> is required or the rifle is worthless as a firearm.
>

Which is why so many customers complained to Cresecent that the rifle
was defective.

> Whoever in the CIA placed the order with WCC obviously was unaware
> that the cartridges had to be fitted into clips. So when the
> shipload of 4,000,000 bullets was manufactured and packaged it was
> useless until someone put it in 666,000 clips. Where did the 666,000
> clips come from?....and who repackaged the ammo?
>

The CIA would not be providing the rifles and the clips. Only the ammo.

> The rifle was designed to use brass clips and the Italian's
> manufactured the clip from brass and the functioned well, but when
> brass became scarce there were clips made from light sheet steel
> (tin) These steel clips didn't work as well as the brass clips but
> they passed inspection. The Cuban exiles training for the invasion
> of Castro's Cuba complained about the steel clips...... they didn't
> always feed the cartridges into the bolt properly which caused
> occasional jamming of the rifles.
>

No they didn't. The Cuban exiles were not given Carcanos. Your arguments
are always full of false assumptions.

>

[Walt]

I see you're still ignorant about the Cuban exiles being trained by
the CIA with Mannlicher Carcanos.

There are videos on the net that show the Cubans with the
Carcanos.....


>
>
>
>

[Anthony Marsh]

No, there aren't and you never show them. Someone once offered to show me
those videos and when I looked at them none of the rifles were Carcanos.
Most were Mausers. You are basing your theory on triple hearsay and
wishful thinking. When I talk about the dent on the back of the rearview
mirror I show you the evidence photo. When you make up crap you can never
show anything.

>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Walt]

Check Gil Jesus website...... That's where I saw the videos......

[Anthony Marsh]

As I said before, nonsense. No Carcanos there.

>
>
>
>> Most were Mausers. You are basing your theory on triple hearsay and
>> wishful thinking. When I talk about the dent on the back of the rearview
>> mirror I show you the evidence photo. When you make up crap you can never
>> show anything.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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On 4/28/2013 7:13 PM, Walt wrote:
> On Apr 27, 10:21 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On 4/27/2013 1:09 PM, mainframetech wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Apr 26, 10:31 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony.ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> On 4/26/2013 9:17 AM, Research wrote:
>>
>>>>> "BT George" <brock.geo...@st.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:404b68c0-5325-46e3...@googlegroups.com...
>>>>> Hello,
>>
>>>>> I am new to this forum, though not new to the JFK case. There is
>>>>> something I am curious about from an "Oswald was innocent" conspriacy
>>>>> perspective. It is a matter of faith among many CT's that the Mannlicher
>>>>> Carcano (MC) said to be found on the 6th floor of the TSBD was not really
>>>>> used by Oswald nor was it even the real the murder weapon. Likewise,
>>>>> debates seem to rage endlessly whether he even owned such a rifle or over
>>>>> whether it was an effective enough instrument to really do what it was
>>>>> alleged to have done.
>>
>>>>> Its hard to conceive that the DPD claimed it was the weapon, but then didn't
>>>>> even do ballistics test to even see if it was fired. Maybe it was or maybe
>>
>>>> The DPD didn't have any such tests. When they found the rifle they
>>>> didn't even know that it was and one of them guessed it was a Mauser.
>>
>>> The DPD officers that identified the rifle as a 'Mauser 7.65'
>>> looked at it from 6-8 inches from the place on the rifle where it was
>>> stamped 'Mauser 7.65'. That's from a statement from Roger Craig,
>>
>> Craig was lying to support Weitzman.
>
> Not so much to support Weitzman..... Craig was just a chronic liar.....
> He may have told Weitzman that the rifle looked like a Mauser and Weitzman
> concurred, and told Fritz that the rifle looked like a Mauser.
>

Craig was not there when Weitzman said it was a Mauser.
Weitzman was the first to identify the rifle.
Craig just went along.

> However it happened..... Weitzman did tell Fritz and Day that the rifle
> looked like a Mauser....and Craig agreed and then made up stories to
> support his contention. Stories like being "only six or eight inches from
> the rifle" and seeing "stamped right there on the barrel was 7.65 Mauser".
> Tom Alyea's video shows that Craig was several feet away from Fritz and
> Day as they examine the rifle......
>
>

Now we are getting somewhere. Do you have a frame from the Alyea film
showing that?

>>
>>> deputy sheriff, and Seymour Weitzman, who signed an affidavit to the
>>> effect that it was a Mauser. Later they got Weitzman to say he had
>>> made a mistake and the rifle was an Italian MC 6.5 rifle, which was
>>> stamped that way. Roger Craig wouldn't change his statement. To see
>>> the related part, skip ahead to 4:30:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFEx8hjD8kE
>>
>> Don't keep repeating all the old myths which were long ago debunked.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> a mannlicher-Carcano would have a stamp that said
>>>>> wasn't. We simply don't know, cause of the slap shot investigative methods
>>>>> used. And they found a paper bag wrapping supposedly used to smuggle the
>>>>> rifle into the building. Just how many curtain rods would have been needed
>>>>> in that tiny room? The rifle was longer than the folds on the bag.
>>
>>>> One set of curtain rods. You can see them in the National Archives.
>>
>>>>> We were disguessing the scope in another post. Which does seem to fit into
>>>>> the paper wrapping story. What about the scope and the wrapping? Wouldn't
>>>>> the scope cause a large bulge in the middle of the wrapping? Wouldn't it
>>>>> seem by the sear size that the package would appear to weigh more than a
>>>>> couple curtian rods?
>>
>>>> You are not allowed to ask any questions about the rifle parts leaving
>>>> impressions in the bag. What are you, a terrorist?
>>
>>>>> I think that most persons (wether CT or LN) would at least agree that a MC
>>>>> would not normally be an assassin's weapon of choice. Leaving the behind
>>
>>>> It is the perfect weapon for a guy who is broke and knows nothing about
>>>> WWII rifles.
>>>> I assume that you are no naive that you think it would make sense if
>>>> Oswald had a $5,000 custom made CIA assassination rifle.
>>
>>> It's also a perfect weapon for a guy that has no intention of
>>> shooting anyone, but wants to take a few pictures with the rifle to
>>> look like a revolutionary for the Cubans he was trying to infiltrate.
>>> He bought the rifle without a clip, and we don't know how a clip and
>>> ammunition were acquired, but they were found in the TSBD.
>>
>>>>> the arguments about the legitimacy of the evidence that it was the actual
>>>>> murder weapon or whether Oswald actually fired it, the LN response to the
>>>>> subject of its deficiencies, is typically to note that it was good enough
>>>>> to be a standard Italian military rifle during WWII and that when in
>>>>> working order is plenty capable of dealing out death and destruction.
>>>>> All that is needed is that the aim of the shooter be good...or that he at
>>>>> least gets lucky and hits what he is aiming at. Of course, whether that
>>>>> answer is adequate is in the eye of the beholder, but from an LN
>>>>> perspective the use of a MC as the apparent murder weapon, simply
>>>>> reinforces the lone-assassin conclusion. (I.e., it's the kind of cheap
>>>>> weapon one would only expect to see if the shooter was poor, lone
>>>>> malcontent like Lee Oswald in late 1963.)
>>
>>>> One hit out of three is pretty good.
>>>> The other question the WC defenders refuse to discuss is how often the
>>>> rifle jams during reloading.
>>
>>>>> Another point here is the rusty condiction of the rifle. It had to be
>>>>> cleaned before the test shots as so it could function. And even then the
>>
>>>> Not a problem.
>>
>>> More than that, the scope had to be shimmed up by the gunsmith
>>> before they could aim the rifle.
>>
>>>>> bolt action was difficult. But the clincher was the timing of the shots.
>>>>> Many depository witnesses (those saying the shots came from the depository)
>>>>> claimed the last two shots were on top of each other. The dictabelt showd
>>>>> they were about 1/2 seconds apart. Working the difficult bolt and re-siting
>>>>> the target would certainly take more time than that. Even if the bolt wasn't
>>>>> worn and rusty. But the LNer side can't explain than. So the argue and
>>>>> deflect.
>>
>>>> Not the same shots. Some witnesses said shots two and three were bunched
>>>> at the end. The acoustics shows that the last two shots of the four they
>>>> found were bunched by less than a second.
>>>> No one ever said the last two shots separated by less than a second were
>>>> both fired by the same rifle. That is physically impossible. Which led
>>>> them to find that one the last two shots was fired from a different
>>>> location.
>>
>>>>> However, from an "Oswald was an innocent patsy" perspective, IOW what
>>>>> would be the logic of choosing such a weapon to frame him with? It just
>>
>>>> So indeed you think they can frame a chronically unemployed loser with a
>>>> $5,000 custom made CIA assassination rifle and people would fall for it.
>>
>>>>> seems strange that plotters who were sophisticated enough to frame Oswald
>>>>> to the degree that is often claimed, would ever choose THAT rifle to frame
>>>>> him with. Would not another rifle (like the Mauser early reports
>>
>>>> The Mauser report was the simple mistake of a dumb cop who didn't know
>>>> the difference and admitted his mistake. Get over it already.
>>
>>> The cop who identified the rifle as a 'Mauser 7.65' was NOT a dumb
>>> cop, he was the go-to guy when gun identification was needed. He ran
>>> a sports shop for a while and was familiar with many types of guns.
>>> It was stated by another cop that watched the identification, that the
>>> 'dumb cop' (Seymour Weitzman) was 6-8 inches from the stamp on the
>>> rifle that said 'Mauser 7.65'. After signing an affidavit as to the
>>> type of rifle, the next day Weitzman said he made a mistake and it was
>>> an MC 6.5 rifle. The other cop never changed his statement:
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFEx8hjD8kE
>>> Skip to 4:30 to get the related part.
>>
>>>>> indicated was discovered) be a better choice? For that matter, if there
>>>>> was a frame-up involving governmental authorities either actively or
>>>>> passively enabling it, I can't help but wonder why they didn't just stick
>>>>> to the early reports and frame him with a Mauser?
>>
>>>> Because Oswald did not buy a Mauser. He bought a Carcano.
>>
>>>>> The first two officers who found the rifle reported it as a Mauser. Another
>>>>> man not connected to the shooting claimed to have seen the rifle, claimed it
>>>>> was a Checo Mauser. And was shipped into and out of the building in a wooden
>>
>>>> Who is this man and what the Hell is a "Checo" Mauser?
>>
>>> Checo means 'Czechoslovakian'. I assume that's where the guy
>>> thought the rifle was made for the Mauser company.
>>
>> Then why didn't you say that? Why the cutesy slang? Why should the
>> Mauser be Czechoslovakian?
>> And who assumed that?
>>
>>
>>
>>>>> box. Of course immediately after the shooting he was committed to a nut
>>>>> house. But was there any kind of collaboring evidence? We have to ask Henry
>>>>> Hurt for that answer. Seems to more than reasonable doubt. Doesn't it?
>>
>>>>> While I doubt I will ever be a high volume poster on this or any other JFK
>>>>> forum, I would love to better understand the resolution of the seemingly
>>>>> inherent tension within the propositions: "We know the rifle was not up to
>>>>> the task." "We also know that they (elaborately) chose to frame him with
>>>>> it." Any thoughts?
>>
>>>> It is hard to frame someone with a gun the suspect never owned. Local
>>>> cops can do that by planting throw away guns on the suspects they kill.
>>>> But in a major crime with such an unusual weapon it is much harder to
>>>> do. Do you understand that they put serial numbers on the weapons?
>>
>>>>> BT George- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>
>

[Walt]

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> Subject: Re: About That Patsy Rifle...

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Jesus H.Christ on a skateboard!...I hand you a piece of Cocanut Creme
pie and then you want me to feed it to you also?

>
>
>
>
> >>> deputy sheriff, and Seymour Weitzman, who signed an affidavit to the
> >>> effect that it was a Mauser.  Later they got Weitzman to say he had
> >>> made a mistake and the rifle was an Italian MC 6.5 rifle, which was
> >>> stamped that way.  Roger Craig wouldn't change his statement.  To see
> >>> the related part, skip ahead to 4:30:
> >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFEx8hjD8kE
>
> >> Don't keep repeating all the old myths which were long ago debunked.
>
> >>>    a mannlicher-Carcano would have a stamp that said
> >>>>> wasn't. We simply don't know, cause of the slap shot investigative methods
> >>>>> used. And they found a paper bag wrapping supposedly used to smuggle the
> >>>>> rifle into the building. Just how many curtain rods would have been needed
> >>>>> in that tiny room? The rifle was longer than the folds on the bag.
>
> >>>> One set of curtain rods. You can see them in the National Archives.
>
> >>>>> We were disguessing the scope in another post. Which does seem to fit into
> >>>>> the paper
>

> ...
>
> read more »