JUDYTH: Her evidence and documentation: HIGH SCHOOL
Barb Junkkarinen
documentation is available to all, thanks to Tony posting the items on
his website.
Thanks to Mark, who created a list of links to each document, that
evidence and documentation is easy to browse and consider.
I would like to go through all of those items and discuss what
evidentiary value and what documentation they provide as well as any
other evidence that is available to sunstantiate these items or claims
that involve them.
I am going to break down this effort into 8 main sections:
1. High School
2. Roswell Park
3. College (Pre-New Orleans)
4. Reily Coffee
5. Oswald: the affair
6. The bio-weapon project
7. Back to Florida ...assassination and post-assassination
8. Everythiong after that
While there will be some overlap ... especially in high
school/Roswell/college ... I hope we can keep (okay it may be a pipe
dream) each section on track ...and on evaluating claims and evidence
that either supports it or does not. While there are not links to all
the claims/evidence she published in her book, enough of us have the
book, and she published information other places as well around the
web, that can be included in the evaluation ... but let's focus on
these items and only bring in other items when they relate to these
items.
What does this posted evidence and documentation ...and any other
evidence that goes to these issues ..... actually tell us about her
claims?
Let's find out.
Here, we start with HIGH SCHOOL.
Of the items on Tony's website (There are currently 51 links, if there
are any additional items that have been added, someone can reply with
that info and links to the additional items) , I count 6 of them that
have to do with her high school years ...and 1 photo that I do not
know when it was taken but will include it in this section, along with
a link to what appears to be just a cropped version of the same photo
...so that makes 10 links for this section.
They are:
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/BakerJudythHighSchool.jpeg
This is a photo of Judyth working in a lab during high school.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Judyth61nicotineSULF.jpeg
This is another photo of Judyth working in the lab in high school ..
probably taken the same day as the preceding one as she is wearing the
same blouse. This one shows one of her little mouse subjects on her
hand.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/BakerJudythGlamour.jpg
This is the photo of Judyth that we do not have a date for ... could
have been during high school, could have been later.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/oBakerJudyth.jpg
This looks like a cropped version of the same photo as above.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythMiceArticleDec60.jpeg
This is a portion of a newspaper article about Judyth and her mouse
cancer experiments. The link says it is from December 1960. The
article itself has no header, no date and it is an incomplete article.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythMiceCaption.jpeg
This is a caption from a newspaper that mentions Judyth and others
having attended the state science fair the week before. It carries no
date. Could it be the caption that goes to the partial article at the
link above? Possibly, but that link says it is from December 1960, and
the Florida State Science Fair is held in the Spring.
Perhaps Martin can pin that down for us.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythSeniorCancer.jpeg
Undated newspaper article noting Judyth had attended the National
Cancer Society Seminar for 1961 ... it notes she met Howard Moore,
director of Roswell Park, who was impressed and invited Judyth
expenses paid to go to Roswell in the summer. This seminar took place
in March 1961 (she was a senior) and mentions that she had just
returned from the state science fair the previous weekend ... which
gives us an early March date for the caption the link above leads to.
This article mentions that Judyth was the only high school student
ever "invited" to this seminar; in her book, Judyth claims she
"crashed" the seminar and details the exploit in a section in her
book, page 11, susbtitled, "I CRASH THE SCIENCE WRITER'S SEMINAR."
She says she flashed her high school press pass to get in. After being
noticed, and approached by "several grumpy-looking men in nice suits"
and "with a policeman" ..she was nearly evicted. But, long story
short, she gpt to stay.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/WalterReedLetter.jpg
This is the letter Judyth wrote to Walter Reed in September 1960. This
is one of the letters she claims she was told to write while at the
Indiana Science Fair in May 1960 (the whole intel types, loyalty oath
signing scenario) ... this one to ask them for advice and any support
they could give her for her research.
These links go to both pages of the ltter she wrote to President
Kennedy on February 14, 1961.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JV2-14-61.gif
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JV2-14-61.jpg
This is the link to the reply Judyth received to the above letter,
from Dungan, at the White House, in May 1961.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/Dungan61.gif
There we have it ... all high school items off of the "evidence" and
"documentation" list posted on Tony's site.
My comments on these items are .....
.1. That they show Judyth was an excellent science student, doing some
quite detailed and long going experimentation with cancer research ...
she received many accolades and had the opportunity to meet some
important people involved in cancer research. Her project and
achievements appeared in the local newspaper .... some articles (on
this list and others appearing in her book or having been posted about
before) being Society Page type articles or the kind of article that
hits the paper because a parent or someone else who knows the student,
calls the newspaper and gives them the information.
That can account for some conflicts ... for instance, being "invited"
to the National Cancer Seminar vs "I crashed" it. Since she relates
she crashed it in great detail ... then came away with an invite to
Roswell, one wonders what she must have told her parents about how she
ended up there. Doubtful whomever fed this info to the newspaper would
relate that she had "crashed" the event ...though personally, I think
it would have made for a good story about Judyth's doggedness to get
into the event.
2. She also pursued help and advice from the Walter Reed Institute.
3. She also wrote what appears to be a typical teenage girl fan letter
to the new President, and received a typical response from the White
House, which I am sure was quite a thrill.
These linked items are evidence that she was an excellent high school
science student, who pursued events where she could meet people
involved in cancer research, that she pursued support from Walter
Reed, and that she wrote a fan letter to President Kennedy.
Anybody else?
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
The links to Judyth's February 1961 letter to President Kennedy are
not page 1 and page 2 ... they are 2 different formats (1 gif, 1 jpg)
of the same 1 page letter.
Barb :-)
Anthony Marsh
> My apologies for a boo-boo laready.
>
> The links to Judyth's February 1961 letter to President Kennedy are
> not page 1 and page 2 ... they are 2 different formats (1 gif, 1 jpg)
> of the same 1 page letter.
>
I often upload a GIF version and a JPG version of the same scan. Some
people prefer one over the other or would prefer to download the smaller
filesize.
Martin Shackelford
The next was OBVIOUSLY a portion of the same photo.
The caption is from a March 1961 photo, as I recall. In any case,
from the time of the Florida science fair and the cancer seminar.
Odd that you would describe the Walter Reed letter as one that
SHE wrote TO Walter Reed, when it is clearly written on Walter
Reed stationery and addressed TO HER. Is this an indication of
the quality of the overall analysis?
The next two AREN'T links to "both pages" of her letter to JFK,
but to TWO COPIES OF THE SAME LETTER.
I can't help but be amazed at the quality of the "analysis" here, Barb. :-)
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:5sc3t3l562gkq6p60...@4ax.com...
Martin Shackelford
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:83g3t3l1cv9am6tja...@4ax.com...
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>The undated photo was taken in 1963, not during high school.
Thanks for clarifying. Her hair looks similar to a pic of her at her
pool party in '61, so I couldn't be sure.
>The next was OBVIOUSLY a portion of the same photo.
I thought so. :-)
>The caption is from a March 1961 photo, as I recall. In any case,
>from the time of the Florida science fair and the cancer seminar.
Okay. I thought the caption could be from a larger article on the kids
at the state science fair and she only cut out that portion that
referred to her.
>Odd that you would describe the Walter Reed letter as one that
>SHE wrote TO Walter Reed, when it is clearly written on Walter
>Reed stationery and addressed TO HER. Is this an indication of
>the quality of the overall analysis?
Not an "analysis" problem, Martin. :-) Thinking one thing, typing
another I suppose ..as what that letter shows was that she took the
initiative to contact Walter Reed about any help they could give her
with her ongoing project.
Thanks for pointing out it is the letter from WR though.
>The next two AREN'T links to "both pages" of her letter to JFK,
>but to TWO COPIES OF THE SAME LETTER.
>I can't help but be amazed at the quality of the "analysis" here, Barb. :-)
Not an "analysis" prob, Martin ...and I immediately posted a
correction noting it was 2 different file types of the same letter.
You keep carping about all the evidence and documentation on Tony's
site. I am trying to get things off of personal attacks and onto the
issues and think that starting by going thru that entire list is a
good way/place to start.
One would think you would be pleased. ;-)
You have clarified a couple of things ... the caption and the photo,
no one has posted any objections to these items supporting her as
being a well known, outstanding high school science student.
Based on these items alone, there doesn't seem to be much to discuus
or "analyze" so maybe it'll be time for Roswell soon.
Barb :-)
tims...@gmail.com
Hi Barb,
Looks good to me. Well done! Maybe a few scans of pages from Judyth's
book would be in order too, since it is now unavailable.
Perhaps that might be something you could work up with Tony Marsh in
the future, maybe.
Regards,
Tim Brennan
Sydney, Australia
*Newsgroup Commentator*
Barb Junkkarinen
>TOP POST
>
>Hi Barb,
>
>Looks good to me. Well done! Maybe a few scans of pages from Judyth's
>book would be in order too, since it is now unavailable.
>
>Perhaps that might be something you could work up with Tony Marsh in
>the future, maybe.
>
>Regards,
Hi Tim,
It is a good idea ... but we'd want permission before scanning and
posting pages from the book ... at least I wouldn't do it without it.
I don't currently have a working scanner either, so maybe Martin could
work with Tony on that.
I'm not sure we'd need anything from the high school years ... but
beyond high school, it definitely might help.
Next up: Roswell Park ... I'll get that up this evening sometime.
Bests,
Barb :-)
JLeyd...@aol.com
> As Martin has often posted, much of Judyth's evidence and
> documentation is available to all, thanks to Tony posting the items on
> his website.
Good rundown, Barb. Maybe you also could post Judyth's university
scientific credits --- Oh, that's right, she doesn't have any, does she?
But, of course, you don't need them to work on top-secret, govt.-
sponsored scientific projects aimed at assassinating foreign leaders.
Oswald was supposedly involved in the same project and he was a 10th-
grade drop out. (Only world leader he managed to assassinate was JFK.)
And Dave Ferrie, who not only had no legitimate scientific degrees but
also had a personal history as a sexual predator that would have denied
him a security clearance to sweep out a govt.-leased warehouse. It's all
fun & games with Shackelford and his friends -- make that friend
(singular).
JGL
Barb Junkkarinen
>On Mar 7, 6:20 pm, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> As Martin has often posted, much of Judyth's evidence and
>> documentation is available to all, thanks to Tony posting the items on
>> his website.
>
>Good rundown, Barb. Maybe you also could post Judyth's university
>scientific credits ---
Now, now, don't jump the gun ... that's #3 on the list. Roswell Park
is next ... and you don't want to miss that one.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
The text between the ***** rows is the same intro as posted with the
opening thread on HIGH SCHOOL, if you are already aware, just scroll
down to the text that beings below the bottom *********row.
****************************************************
Let's find out....
**********************************************************
HIGH SCHOOL is already up, on to ROSWELL PARK.
As anyone at all familiar with Judyth's story knows, because of her
outstanding high school science research, she got the opportunity to
attend the summer program at Roswell Park Cancer Institute the summer
after she graduated from high school ... 1961.
It was the program's 8th year, Judyth was one of 68 outstanding high
school students and recent high school graduates who had the
opportunity to work with mentors for 8 weeks at Roswell Park in a wide
variety of areas and interests. Quite an opportunity for anyone .. and
an amazing one for a female in 1961!
The items on Tony's site that are part of Judyth's evidence and
documentation are:
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythRoswellPark2.jpeg
This article, most likely from a Buffalo paper, reports on the start
of the 8th summer program for outstanding students at Roswell and
includes a photo of a Dr. Bender, Judyth and 5 other students.The
article says the program has just started the day before.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/WelcomeHomePartyArticle.jpeg
A small society page type article about the welcome home party her
parents hosted for her after her return from Roswell Park.
http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythRoswellPark.jpeg
This article appeared in her local paper the day after she returned
home from Roswell Park. It notes what a successful summer it was for
Judyth there, saying that:
1.Judyth was chosen to be among the 5 most outstanding at the program
that summer and that her report to the National Foundation was
considered the best.
2.She was one of three who would be continuing their research under a
grant/scholarship from the National Science Foundation.
3. She was personally selected to work with the director, Dr. Moore
(this article says Howard, but his name, as Judyth reports often and
elsewhere, was George)
4. The article reports that most of Judyth's findings were verified at
Roswell.
5. The article quotes Judyth's mother, and it is possible, if not
likely, that they got the information for the article from her.
Judyth reports all of this and more about her experience at Roswell
Park in her book, and we've seen many details in posts. Martin often
notes how important her working/research at Roswell Park was ...and
uses it as supportive evidence of her story overall.
More on Judyth's other details about Roswell later, just one short
quote from her book here ... this on her grand finale at Roswell as
the program came to its end:
Pg. 22:
QUOTE
I strove for perfection. When I presented my paper on melanogenesis at
the end of the summer, even Dr. Mirand conceded it was one of the best
offered. "I can't figure out how you managed it," he griped, as I
received several grants and awards. The summer program finished, I was
one of only three students from Roswell Park selected to continue
research under a National Science Foundation grant supplemented by the
National Cancer Institute.
END QUOTE
We might ask ourselves how she managed it too. But I know the answer
... she managed it because no one ever checked.
Dr. Mirand didn't offer that comment to Judyth at any end of the
summer program awards presentation, he couldn't have, because, she was
not there.
Dr. Mirand surely knew, as I learned last week, that Judyth did not
complete the summer program. In fact, she had been dismissed from it.
Sources:
1. Roswell Park
2. Fellow student there that summer
Barb :-)
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 7, 6:20 pm, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> As Martin has often posted, much of Judyth's evidence and
>> documentation is available to all, thanks to Tony posting the items on
>> his website.
>
> Good rundown, Barb. Maybe you also could post Judyth's university
> scientific credits --- Oh, that's right, she doesn't have any, does she?
Maybe you also could post YOUR university
scientific credits --- Oh, that's right, YOU don't have any, do you?
> But, of course, you don't need them to work on top-secret, govt.-
> sponsored scientific projects aimed at assassinating foreign leaders.
No, you don't.
> Oswald was supposedly involved in the same project and he was a 10th-
> grade drop out. (Only world leader he managed to assassinate was JFK.)
> And Dave Ferrie, who not only had no legitimate scientific degrees but
> also had a personal history as a sexual predator that would have denied
> him a security clearance to sweep out a govt.-leased warehouse. It's all
Not at all. The CIA has a history of using such people.
Anthony Marsh
But the rest of Team McAdams claims she did that when she was a high
school student. You need to send out a memo.
> It was the program's 8th year, Judyth was one of 68 outstanding high
> school students and recent high school graduates who had the
> opportunity to work with mentors for 8 weeks at Roswell Park in a wide
> variety of areas and interests. Quite an opportunity for anyone .. and
> an amazing one for a female in 1961!
>
Do tell us more. Was it secretly sponsored by the CIA?
Was it part of MK/ULTRA?
> The items on Tony's site that are part of Judyth's evidence and
> documentation are:
>
> http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythRoswellPark2.jpeg
>
> This article, most likely from a Buffalo paper, reports on the start
> of the 8th summer program for outstanding students at Roswell and
> includes a photo of a Dr. Bender, Judyth and 5 other students.The
> article says the program has just started the day before.
>
>
> http://the-puzzle-palace.com/WelcomeHomePartyArticle.jpeg
>
> A small society page type article about the welcome home party her
> parents hosted for her after her return from Roswell Park.
>
>
> http://the-puzzle-palace.com/JudythRoswellPark.jpeg
>
> This article appeared in her local paper the day after she returned
> home from Roswell Park. It notes what a successful summer it was for
> Judyth there, saying that:
>
> 1.Judyth was chosen to be among the 5 most outstanding at the program
> that summer and that her report to the National Foundation was
> considered the best.
>
> 2.She was one of three who would be continuing their research under a
> grant/scholarship from the National Science Foundation.
>
Continuing where and how? By flipping burgers as Team McAdams claims?
> 3. She was personally selected to work with the director, Dr. Moore
> (this article says Howard, but his name, as Judyth reports often and
> elsewhere, was George)
>
> 4. The article reports that most of Judyth's findings were verified at
> Roswell.
>
What findings?
> 5. The article quotes Judyth's mother, and it is possible, if not
> likely, that they got the information for the article from her.
>
Could account for getting names and details wrong.
>
> Judyth reports all of this and more about her experience at Roswell
> Park in her book, and we've seen many details in posts. Martin often
So please tell us, Team McAdams, how did Judyth lie about these things
in her book that are debunked by the newspaper articles? Did she get the
year wrong? Did she forget when she graduated?
> notes how important her working/research at Roswell Park was ...and
> uses it as supportive evidence of her story overall.
>
> More on Judyth's other details about Roswell later, just one short
> quote from her book here ... this on her grand finale at Roswell as
> the program came to its end:
>
> Pg. 22:
>
> QUOTE
>
> I strove for perfection. When I presented my paper on melanogenesis at
> the end of the summer, even Dr. Mirand conceded it was one of the best
> offered. "I can't figure out how you managed it," he griped, as I
> received several grants and awards. The summer program finished, I was
> one of only three students from Roswell Park selected to continue
> research under a National Science Foundation grant supplemented by the
> National Cancer Institute.
>
> END QUOTE
>
> We might ask ourselves how she managed it too. But I know the answer
> ... she managed it because no one ever checked.
>
> Dr. Mirand didn't offer that comment to Judyth at any end of the
> summer program awards presentation, he couldn't have, because, she was
> not there.
>
In that section you quoted she didn't say anything about being at the
awards presentation. This is the problem with Team McAdams. You insert
your own interpretation and then lambaste Judyth for something she
didn't say.
> Dr. Mirand surely knew, as I learned last week, that Judyth did not
> complete the summer program. In fact, she had been dismissed from it.
>
Where does she say that? Upload your documentation.
JLeyd...@aol.com
wrote:
Barb, you saved the best for last -- i.e.,
>that Judyth did not complete the summer program. In fact, she had >been dismissed from it.
>Sources:
>1. Roswell Park
>2. Fellow student there that summer
Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying Judyth was bounced from the
Roswell summer program which Shackelford has been touting as proof of her
scientific genius? If so, Games over.
JGL
James K. Olmstead
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:c2oat3phbvuoo4b08...@4ax.com...
So is this where the evil minions slipped in and managed things.....or was
this just another area that researchers failed to look deeper then just
taking her word for things?
If you just found this out last week.......good job. It will be
interesting to see how things are "explained"........
jko
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 10, 11:25�am, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> Barb, you saved the best for last -- i.e.,
>
>> that Judyth did not complete the summer program. In fact, she had >been dismissed from it.
>> Sources:
>> 1. Roswell Park
>> 2. Fellow student there that summer
>
> Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying Judyth was bounced from the
> Roswell summer program which Shackelford has been touting as proof of her
> scientific genius? If so, Games over.
>
Look at her source. Hearsay gossip from a jealous girl.
This is what Team McAdams passes along as proof.
John McAdams
Let me guess: Team Judyth is going to claim that the Evil Minions,
who are out to do in Judyth the fearless truth teller, have taken over
Roswell Park.
Another possibility is that they will simply call you a liar --
although not on the moderated group.
What they *won't* do is call Roswell Park to confirm what you said.
Since deep down, they have to know it's true.
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Barb Junkkarinen
>On Mar 10, 11:25?am, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
>
>Barb, you saved the best for last -- i.e.,
>
>>that Judyth did not complete the summer program. In fact, she had >been dismissed from it.
>>Sources:
>>1. Roswell Park
>>2. Fellow student there that summer
>
>Am I reading this correctly?
Yes.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
<jolm...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
It would seem to be.
>
>If you just found this out last week.......good job.
Last Wednesday, March 5th, I heard from Roswell Park. I spoke to the
student this past Sunday, the 9th, and he called me this morning and
we chatted again.
> It will be
>interesting to see how things are "explained"........
I think we're all waiting.
Barb :-)
>
>jko
Martin Shackelford
provided by Judyth's mother, but programs like Roswell Park tended to
send press releases to local newspapers of the students involved. It was
a way of promoting the program, and of acknowledging the work of the
students.
And you're going to have to do better than an anonymous "fellow student"
for a claim that she was "dismissed" from the Roswell Park program. There
always seems to be a "lone student" available to attack her account--one
from her high school, one from the school where she taught, and now one
from Roswell Park. The other two were peddling falsehoods, so I don't
have much faith in a new and even more anonymous one.
You keep making demands for notarized statements from anyone who
supports Judyth, but you expect people to accept an unnamed source
of unknown reliability when it comes to trying to discredit her.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:c2oat3phbvuoo4b08...@4ax.com...
>
Anthony Marsh
So, you base your conclusions on gossip, innuendo and hearsay. Post a
document stating that Judyth was kicked out.
Barb Junkkarinen
The information that she was dismissed from the program came directly
from Roswell Park, Martin.
The student merely confirmed that and was able to provide me many
details about the program. And those details were given to me before
Judyth was even brought into the conversation.
Barb :-)
On 12 Mar 2008 11:35:49 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
Martin Shackelford
She did cancer research for two years in college, at St. Francis and then
at university in Florida. At St. Francis, she had the support of the
American Cancer Society, and presented a paper to the Indiana Biological
Association, the only student invited to do so.
As for "make that friend," you continue to make up things out of whole
cloth.
Martin
<JLeyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:159e828d-df52-4a0d...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Martin Shackelford
What happened to your "research standards"?
Martin
<JLeyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9b6e30ab-1516-44de...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 10, 11:25?am, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
Martin Shackelford
asking for any information they still had about Judyth Baker's time in the
program. At that time, they reported having very little information. They
certainly said nothing about her being "dismissed" from the program--that
appears to have come from the "fellow student" (another anonymous source)
that Barb claims to have found "last week."
How handy that she just happened to locate this person as she was
preparing to do a series on Judyth's documentation--or did the "find"
precipitate the decision to do the series?
Martin
"John McAdams" <john.m...@marquette.edu> wrote in message
news:i56et3lr9mnpbamtc...@4ax.com...
JLeyd...@aol.com
wrote:
> On 10 Mar 2008 21:59:27 -0400, JLeyden...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >On Mar 10, 11:25?am, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
> >wrote:
>
> >Barb, you saved the best for last -- i.e.,
>
> >>that Judyth did not complete the summer program. In fact, she had >been dismissed from it.
> >>Sources:
> >>1. Roswell Park
> >>2. Fellow student there that summer
>
> >Am I reading this correctly? �
>
> Yes.
>
> Barb :-)
Well, you know Judyth has a history of not finishing what she started.
One of the news clips Barb posted said she was leaving on a full-tuition
scholarship at St. Francis College in Indiana but I doubt she spent even a
semester there. (This confessed future adulterer and would-be home wrecker
said her parents pulled her out because she wanted to become a nun.) And
let's not forget she got fired from Reily's (we have at least 10 different
stories on that), I believe she also was canned from PenChem after
returning from N.O. (She claimed Dave Ferrie got her the job so she could
keep working on the Get- Castro project.) And, oh, she never finished her
PhD work at ULL (or we would have heard about it.) It all makes the
Roswell Park story quite credible.
JGL
Anthony Marsh
Barb has no documentation. Only rumor, hearsay and innuendo. Tools of
the trade for Team McAdams.
> .John
> --------------
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Apparently you don't recall that I was the one who e-mailed Roswell Park,
>asking for any information they still had about Judyth Baker's time in the
>program. At that time, they reported having very little information.
I don't recall ever hearing you did that, Martin.
>They
>certainly said nothing about her being "dismissed" from the program--that
>appears to have come from the "fellow student" (another anonymous source)
>that Barb claims to have found "last week."
WRONG! I listed Roswell Park as the number one source ... for a
reason. The info that she did not complete the program as she was
dismissed came DIRECTLY from Roswell Park.
Got it now?
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>You're certainly quick to accept an unsourced claim when it suits you.
>What happened to your "research standards"?
>
>Martin
QUOTE
From:
"[...................]" <[..............]@RoswellPark.org>
[Add to Address Book]
To:
<bar...@comcast.net>
Subject:
RE: Outstanding high school students program question
Date:
Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:44:02 AM
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I looked into this matter
and discovered that she never finished the Program as she was
dismissed.
[.........................] PhD, FACE
Professor of [......................................]
Senior [........................................
...................................]
Roswell Park Cancer Institute
Tel: 716-8xx-xxxx
Fax: 716-8xx-xxxx
www.roswellpark.org
END QUOTE
In the e-mail, his text is in a different, bigger font ... and bolded.
His credentials and positions appear in a different font as well, and
in light blue.
This reply and previous communications all appear in this e-mail ..one
hooked onto the other ....so it is clear it is Judy A. Vary being
referred to as "she" here. No other names were involved.
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>JLeyd...@aol.com wrote:
>> On Mar 10, 11:25?am, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Barb, you saved the best for last -- i.e.,
>>
>>> that Judyth did not complete the summer program. In fact, she had >been dismissed from it.
>>> Sources:
>>> 1. Roswell Park
>>> 2. Fellow student there that summer
>>
>> Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying Judyth was bounced from the
>> Roswell summer program which Shackelford has been touting as proof of her
>> scientific genius? If so, Games over.
>>
>
>Look at her source. Hearsay gossip from a jealous girl.
"Roswell Park" is not a girl's name, Anthony. Perhaps you have Gypsy
Rose Lee in mind. <g>
The information that Judy A. Vary did not finish the program and was
dismissed came to me directly from Roswell Park ... the cancer
institute.
>This is what Team McAdams passes along as proof.
And you pass crap.
JLeyd...@aol.com
wrote:
> You're certainly quick to accept an unsourced claim when it suits you.
> What happened to your "research standards"?
>
> Martin
Let me put this simply, Shackelford: I believe Barb; I do not believe
either you or Judyth. We've caught you in just too many misstatements
(the polite word). Let me mention Cancun, if you want an example. And
besides, Barb says she actually picked up a telephone and talked to
someone unlike you who wouldn't ever bother to phone Judyth's ex husband
to check out her claims. Any more questions?
JGL
>
> <JLeyden...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > Barb :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
JLeyd...@aol.com
>
> She did cancer research for two years in college, at St. Francis and then
> at university in Florida. At St. Francis, she had the support of the
> American Cancer Society, and presented a paper to the Indiana Biological
> Association, the only student invited to do so.
>
> As for "make that friend," you continue to make up things out of whole
> cloth.
>
> Martin
I'm going to take a wild guess and say math wasn't your best subject in
school, Shackelfordl. Judyth didn't attend St. Francis for two years. I
doubt if she even finished a semester. You'll remember she said her
parents pulled her out when she wanted to become a nun. (Some joke for
this alleged future adulterer, huh?) But let's do the math: Judyth was
graduated from high school in May or June of 1961. And she entered the
University of Florida in the fall of 1962, earning an AA in English in
1965. So, at most, that leaves, her one year at St. Francis. Anyone
still wonder why this story is such a mess?
JGL
>
> <JLeyden...@aol.com> wrote in message
steve
wrote:
> On 12 Mar 2008 12:37:33 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
>
> >You're certainly quick to accept an unsourced claim when it suits you.
> >What happened to your "research standards"?
>
> >Martin
>
> QUOTE
> From:
> "[...................]" <[..............]@RoswellPark.org>
> [Add to Address Book]
>
> To:
> Subject:
> RE: Outstanding high school students program question
> Date:
> Wednesday, March 05, 2008 9:44:02 AM
>
> Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I looked into this matter
> and discovered that she never finished the Program as she was
> dismissed.
>
> [.........................] PhD, FACE
> Professor of [......................................]
> Senior [........................................
> ...................................]
> Roswell Park Cancer Institute
> Tel: 716-8xx-xxxx
> Fax: 716-8xx-xxxxwww.roswellpark.org
>
> END QUOTE
>
> In the e-mail, his text is in a different, bigger font ... and bolded.
> His credentials and positions appear in a different font as well, and
> in light blue.
>
> This reply and previous communications all appear in this e-mail ..one
> hooked onto the other ....so it is clear it is Judy A. Vary being
> referred to as "she" here. No other names were involved.
Good find Barb! Its not a big surprise though. Just chalk it up as
another piece of Judyth "evidence" that Shackelford stuck his neck out
for, but never bothered to check out and confirm for himself. Shackelford
has a big history of not checking out evidence when it comes to Baker. He
never bothered to call Marina Porter, Robert Baker, Adiran Alba, or Johann
Rush. He never even bothered to get Judyth's letter to President Kennedy
from the Kennedy Library. That was done by Tony Marsh, a guy who thinks
Judyth is 87% FULL OF IT! It took Marsh all of 30 min and he had to dive
through a dangerous tunnel in the rain to get there. Only to get his
fingers all dirty looking through the dusty documents, confirming that
Judyth was full of it 100% on that "loyalty oath" she sent to President
Kennedy in 1960. Im not even gonna bring up "kankun", or getting the
"Oswald" handwriting looked at by an expert. Or Judyth watching JFK land
at the airport the day of the assassination. This is all without
mentioning Judyth, Ferrie, and Oswalds tooth. Or that Gargoyle ring that
was part of Ferrie's E.A. "costume" that he was forbidden to wear.
Somewhat similar to the kitchen cabinets she remembers seeing in Ferrie's
appartment in 63 that didnt show up untill the 90's, or the rearanging
rooms and folding doors. A lot like when Judyth didnt know how to
pronounce the nickname of Oswalds uncle even though she had heard it from
Lee. Or that one about Oswald authorizing parts of the motorcade route. I
could go on, but there is a pattern beginning to appear, and its not good
for Team Judyth. The question is, why did she get thrown out of Roswell
Park? And was getting thrown out of a top notch place like Roswell part of
the "get Castro" plan, or the "get Kennedy" plan?
>
>
>
>
>
> ><JLeyden...@aol.com> wrote in message
James K. Olmstead
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:ZvMBj.250$qT6...@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com...
> Apparently you don't recall that I was the one who e-mailed Roswell Park, asking for any information they still had
> about Judyth Baker's time in the program. At that time, they reported having very little information. They certainly
> said nothing about her being "dismissed" from the program--that appears to have come from the "fellow student"
> (another anonymous source) that Barb claims to have found "last week."
>
> How handy that she just happened to locate this person as she was preparing to do a series on Judyth's
> documentation--or did the "find" precipitate the decision to do the series?
>
> Martin
>
Gee when somebody researches something they usually run into contacts
along the way so why get on her for following sound research......just
because you didn't confirm finishing the program don't get upset when
somebody does follow proceedures.
jko
Anthony Marsh
Which proves nothing. Anyone can type up something and claim it is a
letter received. You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
JLeyd...@aol.com
wrote:
> You leap to the conclusion that the information about Roswell Park was
> provided by Judyth's mother, but programs like Roswell Park tended to
> send press releases to local newspapers of the students involved. It was
> a way of promoting the program, and of acknowledging the work of the
> students.
This is a good point, Shackelford. I've always thought the Ochner people
would have sent out a news release if Judyth really had had been awarded
an internship in the summer of '63 and, if they hadn't Judyth, who was her
own PR agent, certainly would have informed the local media. But we have
never seen anything on this -- nothing, nada, zippo. I remember asking
once where her W-2s were from Ochner and you said -- quite unbelievably --
that the Ochner money was fincluded in her Reily's pay. Meant she was
making $1.15/hr. (min. wage) while working on a top-level govt. project.
Do you even a glimmering of an understandding of why we tend to doubt
Everything in the Judyth story.
JGL
> And you're going to have to do better than an anonymous "fellow student"
> for a claim that she was "dismissed" from the Roswell Park program. There
> always seems to be a "lone student" available to attack her account--one
> from her high school, one from the school where she taught, and now one
> from Roswell Park. The other two were peddling falsehoods, so I don't
> have much faith in a new and even more anonymous one.
> You keep making demands for notarized statements from anyone who
> supports Judyth, but you expect people to accept an unnamed source
> of unknown reliability when it comes to trying to discredit her.
>
> Martin
>
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Barb Junkkarinen
>On Mar 12, 12:37 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
>wrote:
>> You're certainly quick to accept an unsourced claim when it suits you.
>> What happened to your "research standards"?
>>
>> Martin
>
>Let me put this simply, Shackelford: I believe Barb; I do not believe
>either you or Judyth. We've caught you in just too many misstatements
>(the polite word). Let me mention Cancun, if you want an example. And
>besides, Barb says she actually picked up a telephone and talked to
>someone unlike you who wouldn't ever bother to phone Judyth's ex husband
>to check out her claims. Any more questions?
Hiya,
My contact with a fellow student from that summer has been by phone
...all of my communications with Roswell Park have been with this one
guy via e-mail. What's kinda funny is that I initially didn't even
mention Judyth's name .. I wrote to ask a generic question about the
program and mentioned I was doing some research that involved a girl
who attended the program in 1961. I had a quick reply back saying that
if I gave him the student's name, he'd try to identify her mentor for
me. I said ...well, YEAH ... and a few days later, back came the reply
above. Must admit, I was stunned.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
You have no basis for making such an insulting remark to me. I don't
operate that way ...and anyone who knows me, knows that. And what a
stupid thing that would be to do...Roswell is not some anonymous
place. A completely idiotic remark.
You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
YOU will be getting nothing from me.
Barb Junkkarinen
>On Mar 12, 12:37 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
>wrote:
>> No "university science credits"? Wrong again, Leyden.
>>
>> She did cancer research for two years in college, at St. Francis and then
>> at university in Florida. At St. Francis, she had the support of the
>> American Cancer Society, and presented a paper to the Indiana Biological
>> Association, the only student invited to do so.
>>
>> As for "make that friend," you continue to make up things out of whole
>> cloth.
>>
>> Martin
>
>I'm going to take a wild guess and say math wasn't your best subject in
>school, Shackelfordl. Judyth didn't attend St. Francis for two years. I
>doubt if she even finished a semester.
She didn't. :-)
>You'll remember she said her
>parents pulled her out when she wanted to become a nun. (Some joke for
>this alleged future adulterer, huh?) But let's do the math: Judyth was
>graduated from high school in May or June of 1961. And she entered the
>University of Florida in the fall of 1962, earning an AA in English in
>1965. So, at most, that leaves, her one year at St. Francis. Anyone
>still wonder why this story is such a mess?
According to Judyth, she enter the U of F in February 1962 ... 5 weeks
late for the start of the semester.
Barb :-)
Martin Shackelford
As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
received a response.
What you seem to be saying is that they suddenly know more than they told
me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
student who claimed that she had been dismissed. As for "we're all
waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:6oset3dhcf3082m1s...@4ax.com...
Anthony Marsh
> On 11 Mar 2008 19:31:56 -0400, Anthony Marsh
> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> JLeyd...@aol.com wrote:
>>> On Mar 10, 11:25?am, Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Barb, you saved the best for last -- i.e.,
>>>
>>>> that Judyth did not complete the summer program. In fact, she had >been dismissed from it.
>>>> Sources:
>>>> 1. Roswell Park
>>>> 2. Fellow student there that summer
>>> Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying Judyth was bounced from the
>>> Roswell summer program which Shackelford has been touting as proof of her
>>> scientific genius? If so, Games over.
>>>
>> Look at her source. Hearsay gossip from a jealous girl.
>
> "Roswell Park" is not a girl's name, Anthony. Perhaps you have Gypsy
> Rose Lee in mind. <g>
>
You said a student.
> The information that Judy A. Vary did not finish the program and was
> dismissed came to me directly from Roswell Park ... the cancer
> institute.
>
No, it didn't. It was rumor from one person. Show me an official letter
from Roswell Park.
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>"it would seem to be" is nonsense, Barb.
>
>As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
>information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
>received a response.
No, Martin, I never knew that. I'm not saying you never did it ... but
today is the first I have heard of it.
>
>What you seem to be saying is that they suddenly know more than they told
>me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
>student who claimed that she had been dismissed.
That info came from Roswell Park, Martin. The student merely confirmed
it.
>As for "we're all
>waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
>something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
Which part of me saying the info on her not completing the summer
program as she was dismissed is it that you think is vague .. or came
from a student?
Which part of me correcting your apparent need to be blind to me
saying the info came from Roswell Park is it you do you not
understand?
Which part of the e-mail, which I quote in its entirety, only
redacting his name, postion and phone number (he doesn't need a
bejillion people crawling all over him) is"vague" Martin?
There is nothing vague about this. Frankly, I was stunned at his
reply.
A student, that I was able to get contact with AFTER that ...after
telling me all about the program, before I even mentioned Judyth,
...did remember her ..and confirmed there was a big load of trouble
and then Judyth was *gone*.
I don't think Roswell "suddenly know" more than they ever did ... may
all depend on the person you got in contact with, and as quoted, this
guy said he looked into it and discovered she had not completed the
program as she was dismissed. Maybe you were dealing with a clerical
person who didn't know where to look or whatever ... I am not.
And what the heck kind of response was the "they didn't know much
about it" (or howeve you termed it) ... they either found info about
Judyth being there or not.
ever doubted she was there the whole summer. That is NOT the question
I asked when I wrote Roswell...in fact, my first communication with
the Roswell guy did not even mention her name. He replied and said
that if I sent him the name he'd see if he could tell me who her
mentor was. And the reply I got back was that she had not completed
the program "as she was dismissed."
You know me better than to even think ... or hint ... that I made
anything up. If not, you are further gone than I ever dreamed.
We both want the truth, right Martin? I do.
Judyth lied to you, Martin. You're going to have to deal with it and
stop thrashing out at everyone and everything else.
Either that, or a quite upper echelon person at Roswell is a liar
..and, coincidentally, so is a random student who was also there.
She lied, Martin. There is no way around it. Beyond that, not much
else ala Roswell matters, but I have details (gotten BEFORE Judyth
became part of the conversation) that directly conflict with claims
Judyth has made about the program.
Barb :-)
Dave Reitzes
wrote:
> "it would seem to be" is nonsense, Barb.
>
> As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
> information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
> received a response.
>
> What you seem to be saying is that they suddenly know more than they told
> me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
> student who claimed that she had been dismissed. As for "we're all
> waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
> something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
>
> Martin
As far as Martin is concerned, it's always someone else's
responsibility to substantiate Judyth's claims.
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:6oset3dhcf3082m1s...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On 10 Mar 2008 22:00:40 -0400, "James K. Olmstead"
> > <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Dave
Anthony Marsh
We never get ANY documents from you. Only personal attacks.
JLeyd...@aol.com
> Which proves nothing. Anyone can type up something and claim it is a
> letter received. You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
>
Your statement probably says more about you, Tony, than it does Barb.
JGL
steve
wrote:
> "it would seem to be" is nonsense, Barb.
>
> As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
> information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
> received a response.
>
> What you seem to be saying is that they suddenly know more than they told
> me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
> student who claimed that she had been dismissed. As for "we're all
> waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
> something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
>
Are you seriously blasting someone for vaguely sourced claims
Shackelford? That has got to be the most outrageous statement i have ever
heard from you of all people. This is comming from someone who says
"a close friend of Marina told us"
"a granddaughter of Marcello told us"
"a Canadian researcher who hired a private investigator in New
Orleans told us"
"a 60 MIN intern read me the summary report over the phone and
told me"
Im gonna keep this one short, but we all get the picture Shackelford.
You are the *KING* of vaguely sourced claims.
> Martin
>
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:6oset3dhcf3082m1s...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On 10 Mar 2008 22:00:40 -0400, "James K. Olmstead"
> > <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >>jko- Hide quoted text -
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 13, 12:34�am, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>> "it would seem to be" is nonsense, Barb.
>>
>> As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
>> information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
>> received a response.
>>
>> What you seem to be saying is that they suddenly know more than they told
>> me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
>> student who claimed that she had been dismissed. As for "we're all
>> waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
>> something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
>>
>> Martin
>
>
> As far as Martin is concerned, it's always someone else's
> responsibility to substantiate Judyth's claims.
>
Isn't that what I did by finding her letter to President Kennedy?
Please upload the documents you have found.
paul seaton
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:StmdnQ6F5JfzqETa...@comcast.com...
> Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> On 12 Mar 2008 23:54:25 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
...
>> You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
>>
>> YOU will be getting nothing from me.
>
> We never get ANY documents from you. Only personal attacks.
Tony,
As far as I am aware - & I do know a little of the background to this -
Barb has spoken to current staff at Roswell & to a former student who was
contemporaneous there with Judyth. They both tell the same story - Judyth
was dismissed.
Since these contacts were by phone ( which was not recorded) & email
(which is fake-able) the only undisputable evidence Barb could possibly
provide would be the names, emails, & phone numbers of the individuals
concerned.
The problem is that providing these would subject the two unsuspecting
people to an inevitable barrage of emails & ringing phones from what the
outside world regards ( usually quite rightly) as a bunch of Kennedy
assassination nuts - something pretty well guaranteed to shut them up
forever.
So - in the near future at least - people here have a choice. They can
believe that Barb has suddenly taken to fabricating evidence & lying
through her teeth, or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as the
overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
Paul S
Barb Junkkarinen
This morning, I e-mailed you, Martin and one other person, and offered
to send Martin the whole e-mail chain if he would promise not to post
or otherwise disseminate this Roswell Park man's contact info.
I refuse to have his information blasted across the net. I noted that
if Martin wanted to seek verification from him that he sent me the
message, that would certainly be Martin's perogative, but that I hoped
he would keep it to that and not burn this person who could possibly
provide additional information ... I have not yet heard from him on a
follow up query, and he may well be done ... FERPA possibly being why
or perhaps he sees, as I do, that the info that she did not finish the
program because she was dismissed from it is pretty much all that
matters.
I have not heard anything back from Martin. He hasn't posted anything
today/tonight either, so it is possible that he hasn't seen my offer
yet. I really cannot think of any reason he would turn down having the
e-mails.
I think it is reasonable for Martin to have the information ...so this
thinly veiled accusatory nonsense can stop,
This e-mail from the fellow at Roswell Park is real; he is in a
position to have access to such information ...and a second source, a
student who attended that same summer, has confirmed she was
dismissed.
Paul, I hope you will post your comments on what you sees/think about
the e-mail now that you have it.
The offer is certainly still open to Martin ..but he needs to get it
from me.
Bests,
Barb :-)
On 14 Mar 2008 00:33:47 -0400, "paul seaton"
Martin Shackelford
e-mail asking for any information about Judyth Baker in their program.
Something doesn't add up here.
And for a student to conveniently pop up to confirm the dismissal claim
the week before your Roswell Park post is decidedly odd.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jguft357vcvdbs8ab...@4ax.com...
>
> The information that she was dismissed from the program came directly
> from Roswell Park, Martin.
>
> The student merely confirmed that and was able to provide me many
> details about the program. And those details were given to me before
> Judyth was even brought into the conversation.
>
> Barb :-)
>
> On 12 Mar 2008 11:35:49 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
> <msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>You leap to the conclusion that the information about Roswell Park was
>>provided by Judyth's mother, but programs like Roswell Park tended to
>>send press releases to local newspapers of the students involved. It was
>>a way of promoting the program, and of acknowledging the work of the
>>students.
>>And you're going to have to do better than an anonymous "fellow student"
>>for a claim that she was "dismissed" from the Roswell Park program. There
>>always seems to be a "lone student" available to attack her account--one
>>from her high school, one from the school where she taught, and now one
>>from Roswell Park. The other two were peddling falsehoods, so I don't
>>have much faith in a new and even more anonymous one.
>>You keep making demands for notarized statements from anyone who
>>supports Judyth, but you expect people to accept an unnamed source
>>of unknown reliability when it comes to trying to discredit her.
>>
>>Martin
>>
>>"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
Martin Shackelford
If I removed the name of the source from a document, I'd get roasted here.
That makes it impossible to confirm the claim or ask followup questions.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:pc2gt35e2bm0v57m9...@4ax.com...
Martin Shackelford
I didn't say she stayed at St. Francis for two years. I said she was IN
COLLEGE
for two years prior to New Orleans.
Martin
<JLeyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:b23c6b0e-34f2-4e49...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Martin Shackelford
participation in their
summer program in 1961, and they said NOTHING about her being dismissed.
The e-mail Barb provides (unlike the one I provided) leaves out the name of
her
source at Roswell Park, making confirmation or further questions impossible.
The nonsense about Robert Baker and Marina Oswald is the same old out-of-
context junk.
As for the Kennedy letter, Tony easily obtained it BECAUSE HE LIVES IN
BOSTON, where the JFK Library is located. I'm in Michigan.
The fact that you continue to propagate the "Team Judyth" myth is also
telling.
Martin
"steve" <misled...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e9bd7780-87a2-414f...@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
Martin Shackelford
to her.
Martin
"Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:StmdnQ6F5JfzqETa...@comcast.com...
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Try reading for meaning, Leyden.
>I didn't say she stayed at St. Francis for two years. I said she was IN
>COLLEGE
>for two years prior to New Orleans.
>
You said, and it appears below as i well as in who knows how many
other posts, that she did "cancer research in college for two years."
Surely you know that she didn't complete any credits and withdrew
mid-semester from St. Frances College. And there is zero indication
that she did anything there besides being enrolled as any freshman
taking courses., She earned zero credits there as she withdrew.
Barb :-)
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>I wonder why they made no mention of that when they responded to my
>e-mail asking for any information about Judyth Baker in their program.
>Something doesn't add up here.
Maybe because they never had a "Judyth Baker" in their program. They
had a Judy A. Vary.
>
>And for a student to conveniently pop up to confirm the dismissal claim
>the week before your Roswell Park post is decidedly odd.
You need to quit pretending that you haven'y had the order of things
made explicitly clear to you, Martin.
My exchanges with Roswell Park came FIRST ... BEFORE I had ANY contact
with a former student. NO other student is mentioned ANYwhere in my
contacts with Roswell Park ...and for a very good reason: I had no
contact with a former student until AFTERR I had been e-mailed the
information from Roswell Park that Judy Vary had not completed the
program but had been dismissed from it.
Read that again.
I managed to contact a student AFTER I already had that e-mail from
Roswell Park.
Read that again.
The student, whom I got many details about the program from BEFORE
Judyth's name even came into the conversation, HAS NO IDEA who Judyth
Baker is ... but he does remember Judy Vary from Roswell Park ... just
as he remembers the names of some of the other students there, but
Judy Vary he recalls because of what he termed the "big whoop-de-do"
she caused that had everybody talking ...and then she was gone from
the program. Thus, the student, confirmed what Roswell Park HAD
ALREADY WRITTEN TO ME.
Read that again.
Got it now?
Quit trying make this sound like some student concocted thing. It's
ridiculous on its face and since it's been made quite clear a number
of times now, I can only think you are engaging in some diversionary
malarkey to try and wriggle away from what a person in an
administrative position at Roswell Park discovered when he was looking
to confirm who her mentor was for me.
The e-mail from him has been posted here, sans his contact info. You
have been offered to receive the entire e-mail correspondence chain
with his contact info intact ... and you replied saying you had noi
doubt the e-mail is real but with a ramble about other false witnesses
making it sound like Roswell Park got the info from the student.
RIDICULOUS.
And nowhere in your e-mail reply did you say one word about wanting to
see the e-mails. Telling, imo. I think you are afraisd to see my
exchanges with Roswell Park because you know good and well that the
info came from them initially and not from any student.
If you actually have all the exchanges, you can't pretend anymore.
Barb :-)
.
Barb Junkkarinen
Martin ...they are in one continous string ... but instead you replied
with more diversionary ramble as if it hasn't been made clear to you
that the info came from Roswell Park FIRST ...no other student
involved.
And you didn't take me up on the offer. You would have all the
exchanges ...including the name, position and contact info for the guy
at Roswell.
I think you are afraid to have it ... because then you can't pretend
it's meaningless anymore, nor continue with your awitcheroo trying to
make it look like just a story from some student.
I posted the entire last epmail from the Roswell guy here, sans his
contact info. You have a reputation for posting "excerpts" of things
you say people e-mailed. You have a reputation for claiming things are
documented, but that you will not share the documentation ...for what
turned out to be years. And then it turned out there is hardly any
documentation for anything at all.
You failed to check even the basics of her story.
I learned this info last week ... have posted the e-mail below, have
offered you the complete exchanges ... found a student to see if they
could confirm what Roswell said ...and you want to talk about MY
research standards?
It would be hilarious, Martin, if it just wasn't so damn pathetic.
On 14 Mar 2008 12:32:59 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>In fact, Steve, I e-mailed Roswell Park for information about her
>participation in their
>summer program in 1961, and they said NOTHING about her being dismissed.
>The e-mail Barb provides (unlike the one I provided) leaves out the name of
>her
>source at Roswell Park, making confirmation or further questions impossible.
You have been OFFERED the COMPLETE exchanges I had with Roswell Park
... COMPLETE with the man's position, titles and contact info. And two
others are witness to that because I included them om the e-mail.
You replied and FAILED TO TAKE ME UP ON THE OFFER. Instead you rambled
about attacks on Judyth and continued your nonsense about the info
having come from a student first instead of having come from Roswell
Park FIRST.
>The nonsense about Robert Baker and Marina Oswald is the same old out-of-
>context junk.
>As for the Kennedy letter, Tony easily obtained it BECAUSE HE LIVES IN
>BOSTON, where the JFK Library is located. I'm in Michigan.
>The fact that you continue to propagate the "Team Judyth" myth is also
>telling.
Oh baloney. Tony found the letter because he made the effort to look
for it. You won't look for anything eevem when it is placed right
under your nose and someone offers to hand it to you ... like my
complete e-mail exchange with Roswell Park that makes everything quite
clear.
No wonder why not.
Barb Junkkarinen
and well I have offered to send you the complete chain of exchanges,
complete with all contact info ...and YOU FAILED TO TAKE ME UP ON IT.
You get roasted because you don't post documents .. you basically post
2nd and 3rd hand hearsay either in paraphrase or selected "excerpts."
But let's not divert from the point here: THE COMPLETE EXCHANGES ARE
AVAILABLE TO YOU (and two additional people I put on the e-mail are
witness to this and to your reply) ... all you have to do is agree not
to publish or disseminate this man's contact info which is just a
reasonable courtesy rrather than blasting this man's info all across
the net.
Instead, you said you don't doubt the e-mail is real ... but twist it
around through some contortion like Roswell got the info from the
student. it has been explicitly laid out here on the board and in
e-mail to you that that is not the case.
No wonder you don't seem to want the e-mails with all the info ... how
then could you pretend that there's something wrong, fishy or
backwards with all this.
The documentation is yours for the asking, Martin ... as of 9:43 am
YESTERDAY PDT...yet, here you are, a day later saying this.
How telling.
I think you don't want the exchanges because you know damn well what
they document and you are not willing to face it.
Make your own choice on that, Martin ... but don't compound it by
trying to make it sound like no such thing exists.
The elephant is in the room, Martin, Everyone else can see it. You
just don't want to.
On 14 Mar 2008 12:31:22 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
Martin Shackelford
mean?
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gicht39lnpmvc1k2l...@4ax.com...
Martin Shackelford
told me"
enjoy making things up.
What I said was that the CONSULTANT to "60 Minutes," a former Senate
investigator, read me the ENTIRE report over the phone and told me how the
"60 Minutes" staff had responded to it.
Martin
"steve" <misled...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:25bd063f-1005-4d82...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>"a big load of trouble" is a new detail--what the hell is that supposed to
>mean?
It means just what it says. Once you stop pretending that the info on
Judyth being dismissed from the program came from some student first
..and that maybe Roswell ran with what a student said (how ridiculous)
then I am prepared to get into what I learned from the student.
It's been explained a number of times now, Martin, both here on the
board and in e-mail, that my first knowledge of Judyth not having
completed the program and having been dismissed came from Roswell
Park.
Please let us know that you understand that now.
And let's get past these assertions that anythiong is "vague" or not
documented ... you have been offered the complete string of exchanges
I had with Roswell, including all the contact info intact ... and
failed to take me up on the offer.
We're going to get past this silliness first, before I move on to
anything else.
And I am leaving on vacation for 10 days tomorrow morning. So, if you
want those e-mails, you know the terms. I will be able to check my
e-mail here and there while gone, I most likely will not have the
opportunity to post.
You can refuse to see the actual exchanges ... but that rather makes
your condescension about a lack of documentation look really dumb. You
can continue to twist this around as if some student is attacking
judyth ... but the way it went down has all been thoroughly explained.
You are the only one who doesn't seem to understand that, Martin..
Pretending is not going to make it go away. A much titled person at
Roswell Park says that while looking to verify who her mentor was for
me, he "discovered" that Judyth never comleted the program ..."as she
was dismissed."
It's here, it's real ... taking the ostrich position isn't going to
help you. in fact, it'll hurt you more.No one really wants to see
that, Martin.
Martin Shackelford
I NEVER said "the Ochsner money was included in her Reily pay." I never
said she was paid by Ochsner at all, in any way, shape or form. Why do you
keep making this stuff up? Or is your memory really that bad?
Martin
<JLeyd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3e35bf56-a342-4625...@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 12, 10:35?am, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> You leap to the conclusion that the information about Roswell Park was
> provided by Judyth's mother, but programs like Roswell Park tended to
> send press releases to local newspapers of the students involved. It was
> a way of promoting the program, and of acknowledging the work of the
> students.
This is a good point, Shackelford. I've always thought the Ochner people
would have sent out a news release if Judyth really had had been awarded
an internship in the summer of '63 and, if they hadn't Judyth, who was her
own PR agent, certainly would have informed the local media. But we have
never seen anything on this -- nothing, nada, zippo. I remember asking
once where her W-2s were from Ochner and you said -- quite unbelievably --
that the Ochner money was fincluded in her Reily's pay. Meant she was
making $1.15/hr. (min. wage) while working on a top-level govt. project.
Do you even a glimmering of an understandding of why we tend to doubt
Everything in the Judyth story.
JGL
> And you're going to have to do better than an anonymous "fellow student"
> for a claim that she was "dismissed" from the Roswell Park program. There
> always seems to be a "lone student" available to attack her account--one
> from her high school, one from the school where she taught, and now one
> from Roswell Park. The other two were peddling falsehoods, so I don't
> have much faith in a new and even more anonymous one.
> You keep making demands for notarized statements from anyone who
> supports Judyth, but you expect people to accept an unnamed source
> of unknown reliability when it comes to trying to discredit her.
>
> Martin
>
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > Barb :-)- Hide quoted text -
Martin Shackelford
to you, Dave?
Martin
"Dave Reitzes" <drei...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9b1dbb3f-f8cc-4b07...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 13, 12:34?am, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
Martin Shackelford
e-mail addresses here without their permission. I don't "blast people
across the Net" as some others here do.
"Confirmation" of one Judyth attacker by another doesn't cut it.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rv1kt39m703k2cp65...@4ax.com...
Martin Shackelford
had participated, wrote this in response to my request for information
about her participation--nothing about her being dismissed, and nothing
about a bunch of trouble:
> Ms. Vary was from Palmetto, Florida, the Manatee
> High School. She
> studied with Dr. George Moore, the Institute
> Director at that time, The
> program for high school students ran from July 1
> through September 1,
> 1962. Ms. Vary was paid $250 from a National
> Science Foundation Grant.
Martin
"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:rv1kt39m703k2cp65...@4ax.com...
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>You seem to forget that I have consistently declined to post people's
>e-mail addresses here without their permission. I don't "blast people
>across the Net" as some others here do.
Then don't criticize me for "vague
documentation. :-) And you have been offered the e-mails between me
and Roswell Park.
>
>"Confirmation" of one Judyth attacker by another doesn't cut it.
Are you calling Roswell Park a Judyth "attacker"?
Roswell Park is where the info came from, Martin.
It looks pretty ridiculous that you keep ignoring that ... but then I
guess faced with information from a person in a position to have
access to everything at Roswell Park ... it's about all you have.
The student knew about the trouble ...and the disposition of Judyth.
He did NOT know anythiong about the information from Roswell Park at
the time.
That's confirmation, toots. He also had no idea who Judyth Baker is
nor anything about her story until AFTER we talked about the program
details of that summer ...THEN I mentioned a few students names and he
told me what he recalled about them ...and I mentioned Judy Vary LAST.
You are not only not objective about Judyth ... you can't even look at
information from Roswell Park without looking for excuses. In my
opinion, you don't seem to want information at all ... not if it
conflicts with Judyth. So much for any quest for truth in the
assassination on your part. No wonder you dropped the ball so badly on
anything that could be called "research" on Judyth's claims ... don't
look if you don't want to know.
If you accepted the e-mails, you could contact the sender and verify
that he sent me that info. It's not hard for anyone to figure out why
you don't want to do that.
Judyth went to the summer program at Roswell Park. She did not
complete the program as she was dismissed....per Roswell Park.
You can't make it go away by assuming the ostrich position, Martin.
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Craig Johnson, the director of the summer research program in which Judyth
>had participated, wrote this in response to my request for information
>about her participation--nothing about her being dismissed, and nothing
>about a bunch of trouble:
>
>> Ms. Vary was from Palmetto, Florida, the Manatee
>> High School. She
>> studied with Dr. George Moore, the Institute
>> Director at that time, The
>> program for high school students ran from July 1
>> through September 1,
>> 1962. Ms. Vary was paid $250 from a National
>> Science Foundation Grant.
*****1962*****?????
She was there in 1961.
Wrong year, but he confirns her mentor was Dr. Moore, at least. That
he does not go into her woes there ... or that she was dismissed, does
not mean it didn't happen ... it just means he did not mention it to
you.
Accept the terms of getting the e-mails and you can contact this guy
about what he says he "discovered" when he went looking into Judy
Vary's time in the summer program.
Then a student, who knows nothing about Judyth Baker, who knew nothing
about me contacting Roswell Park ... just happens to mention she
caused a bunch of trouble that had people talking all over the place
and then she was gone when I mentioned Judy Vary ...having already
mentioned a few other student's names and having heard her comments
about remembering them.
A little too coincidental, Martin..I have no reason to believe the guy
who sent me the information was wrong .... whether you want to rant &
rave "attacker" or not ... the fact of the matter is that the student,
as I noted above, didn't know anything about what Roswell Park had
told me until AFTER we had talked about other students, then Judy Vary
and what he recalled.
Your calling people "attackers" has reached a rather pathetic level,
martin. Like the little boy who cried wolf .. it means nothing to
anyone anymore, pretty much a sad sideshow.
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>This is total nonsense, Leyden.
>
>I NEVER said "the Ochsner money was included in her Reily pay." I never
>said she was paid by Ochsner at all, in any way, shape or form. Why do you
>keep making this stuff up? Or is your memory really that bad?
So, how was she paid for this secret kitchen lab work to develop a
bioweapon, Martin?
You don't expect people to believe she did all this for free, I hope.
Anthony Marsh
>
> "Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:StmdnQ6F5JfzqETa...@comcast.com...
>> Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>> On 12 Mar 2008 23:54:25 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>
> ...
>
>
>>> You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
>>>
>>> YOU will be getting nothing from me.
>>
>> We never get ANY documents from you. Only personal attacks.
>
> Tony,
>
> As far as I am aware - & I do know a little of the background to this -
> Barb has spoken to current staff at Roswell & to a former student who
> was contemporaneous there with Judyth. They both tell the same story -
> Judyth was dismissed.
>
So what. That is not official. It is just rumor and innuendo. I'd like
to see some proof.
> Since these contacts were by phone ( which was not recorded) & email
> (which is fake-able) the only undisputable evidence Barb could possibly
> provide would be the names, emails, & phone numbers of the individuals
> concerned.
>
No. If it is true she could post a document from Roswell Park.
> The problem is that providing these would subject the two unsuspecting
> people to an inevitable barrage of emails & ringing phones from what the
> outside world regards ( usually quite rightly) as a bunch of Kennedy
> assassination nuts - something pretty well guaranteed to shut them up
> forever.
>
Yeah, and I can claim that some witness told me that he saw the CIA
agent shooting from the grassy knoll. And you'd have to accept it
without any proof.
> So - in the near future at least - people here have a choice. They can
> believe that Barb has suddenly taken to fabricating evidence & lying
> through her teeth, or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
>
Suddenly?
> I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as
> the overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
>
Can you explain why the NSF would give her a grant if she was dismissed
from the program??
> Paul S
steve
wrote:
> In fact, Steve, I e-mailed Roswell Park for information about her
> participation in their
> summer program in 1961, and they said NOTHING about her being dismissed.
> The e-mail Barb provides (unlike the one I provided) leaves out the name of
> her
> source at Roswell Park, making confirmation or further questions impossible.
Much like your Canadian "researcher", Marina's friend who watched the
love affair with her, the inter from 60 MIN who read you a report over
the phone, and your "Marcello granddaughter"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> The nonsense about Robert Baker and Marina Oswald is the same old out-of-
> context junk.
Not at all.
> As for the Kennedy letter, Tony easily obtained it BECAUSE HE LIVES IN
> BOSTON, where the JFK Library is located.
I have made that arguement myself, but Marsh wont let any of us off
the hook. You or i should have found that letter. Mabey if we had you
wouldnt believe Judyth wrote a loyalty oath to President Kennedy in
1960
> I'm in Michigan.
> The fact that you continue to propagate the "Team Judyth" myth is also
> telling.
What is telling is your continued membership in "team Judyth"
>
> Martin
>
> "steve" <misledrks...@aol.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
steve
wrote:
> "a 60 MIN intern read me the summary report over the phone and
> told me"
> That's not a statement I have ever made, steve. Judyth's attackers seem to
> enjoy making things up.
> What I said was that the CONSULTANT to "60 Minutes," a former Senate
> investigator, read me the ENTIRE report over the phone and told me how the
> "60 Minutes" staff had responded to it.
You talking about that lawyer for the tabacco companies? I hate to
break it to you Shack, those guys werent too honest.
>
> Martin
>
> "steve" <misledrks...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Anthony Marsh
> "a big load of trouble" is a new detail--what the hell is that supposed to
> mean?
>
Innuendo.
Pamela McElwain-Brown
wrote:
> "a big load of trouble" is a new detail--what the hell is that supposed to
> mean?
>
> Martin
Barb seems comfortable presenting nothing which can be verified
independently. Everything is supposed to go 'through her'. This, on
its own, is mysterious, in that Roswell Park is hardly a clandestine
organization without a press representative. However, the inference
seems to be that RP is too busy to deal with a slew of JFK
assassination researchers seeking information on the accusation Barb
is making that involves RP. That kind of looks like a big load of
something.
>
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:gicht39lnpmvc1k2l...@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> > On 13 Mar 2008 00:34:38 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
> >>"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >>news:6oset3dhcf3082m1s...@4ax.com...
> >>> On 10 Mar 2008 22:00:40 -0400, "James K. Olmstead"
> >>> <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Anthony Marsh
> On 14 Mar 2008 13:37:23 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
> <msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> "a big load of trouble" is a new detail--what the hell is that supposed to
>> mean?
>
> It means just what it says. Once you stop pretending that the info on
> Judyth being dismissed from the program came from some student first
> ..and that maybe Roswell ran with what a student said (how ridiculous)
> then I am prepared to get into what I learned from the student.
>
No, you aren't. It's hearsay and nonsense.
> It's been explained a number of times now, Martin, both here on the
> board and in e-mail, that my first knowledge of Judyth not having
> completed the program and having been dismissed came from Roswell
> Park.
>
No, it did not come officially from Roswell Park. It came from one
person. Hearsay.
> Please let us know that you understand that now.
>
> And let's get past these assertions that anythiong is "vague" or not
> documented ... you have been offered the complete string of exchanges
Documented means more than just hearsay. You never post any documentation.
> I had with Roswell, including all the contact info intact ... and
> failed to take me up on the offer.
>
> We're going to get past this silliness first, before I move on to
> anything else.
>
> And I am leaving on vacation for 10 days tomorrow morning. So, if you
> want those e-mails, you know the terms. I will be able to check my
> e-mail here and there while gone, I most likely will not have the
> opportunity to post.
>
> You can refuse to see the actual exchanges ... but that rather makes
> your condescension about a lack of documentation look really dumb. You
> can continue to twist this around as if some student is attacking
> judyth ... but the way it went down has all been thoroughly explained.
> You are the only one who doesn't seem to understand that, Martin..
>
> Pretending is not going to make it go away. A much titled person at
> Roswell Park says that while looking to verify who her mentor was for
> me, he "discovered" that Judyth never comleted the program ..."as she
> was dismissed."
>
If he discovered it, upload that document.
Anthony Marsh
> Thanks, Paul.
>
> This morning, I e-mailed you, Martin and one other person, and offered
> to send Martin the whole e-mail chain if he would promise not to post
> or otherwise disseminate this Roswell Park man's contact info.
>
I am not impressed by e-mails. Anyone can make up any rumor in an e-mail.
I want to see something official on Roswell Park letterhead.
> I refuse to have his information blasted across the net. I noted that
> if Martin wanted to seek verification from him that he sent me the
> message, that would certainly be Martin's perogative, but that I hoped
> he would keep it to that and not burn this person who could possibly
> provide additional information ... I have not yet heard from him on a
> follow up query, and he may well be done ... FERPA possibly being why
> or perhaps he sees, as I do, that the info that she did not finish the
> program because she was dismissed from it is pretty much all that
> matters.
>
> I have not heard anything back from Martin. He hasn't posted anything
> today/tonight either, so it is possible that he hasn't seen my offer
> yet. I really cannot think of any reason he would turn down having the
> e-mails.
>
> I think it is reasonable for Martin to have the information ...so this
> thinly veiled accusatory nonsense can stop,
>
> This e-mail from the fellow at Roswell Park is real; he is in a
> position to have access to such information ...and a second source, a
> student who attended that same summer, has confirmed she was
> dismissed.
>
Confirmed? How can someone confirm rumors, hearsay and innuendo. Post
documentation from Roswell Park.
> Paul, I hope you will post your comments on what you sees/think about
> the e-mail now that you have it.
>
> The offer is certainly still open to Martin ..but he needs to get it
> from me.
>
> Bests,
> Barb :-)
>
>
>
> On 14 Mar 2008 00:33:47 -0400, "paul seaton"
> <paulNOse...@paulseaton.com> wrote:
>
>> "Anthony Marsh" <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:StmdnQ6F5JfzqETa...@comcast.com...
>>> Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>>>> On 12 Mar 2008 23:54:25 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>>>> <anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>>> You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
>>>>
>>>> YOU will be getting nothing from me.
>>> We never get ANY documents from you. Only personal attacks.
>> Tony,
>>
>> As far as I am aware - & I do know a little of the background to this -
>> Barb has spoken to current staff at Roswell & to a former student who was
>> contemporaneous there with Judyth. They both tell the same story - Judyth
>> was dismissed.
>>
>> Since these contacts were by phone ( which was not recorded) & email
>> (which is fake-able) the only undisputable evidence Barb could possibly
>> provide would be the names, emails, & phone numbers of the individuals
>> concerned.
>>
>> The problem is that providing these would subject the two unsuspecting
>> people to an inevitable barrage of emails & ringing phones from what the
>> outside world regards ( usually quite rightly) as a bunch of Kennedy
>> assassination nuts - something pretty well guaranteed to shut them up
>> forever.
>>
>> So - in the near future at least - people here have a choice. They can
>> believe that Barb has suddenly taken to fabricating evidence & lying
>> through her teeth, or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
>>
>> I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as the
>> overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
>>
>> Paul S
>
Anthony Marsh
> On Mar 12, 11:54 pm, Anthony Marsh <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Which proves nothing. Anyone can type up something and claim it is a
>>
>
> Your statement probably says more about you, Tony, than it does Barb.
>
Which says a lot about you. I routinely scan in and upload documents.
Barb does not. You do not.
> JGL
John McAdams
<barbRE...@comcast.net> wrote:
>On 12 Mar 2008 23:51:09 -0400, JLeyd...@aol.com wrote:
>
>>On Mar 12, 12:37 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
>>wrote:
>>> No "university science credits"? Wrong again, Leyden.
>>>
>>> She did cancer research for two years in college, at St. Francis and then
>>> at university in Florida. At St. Francis, she had the support of the
>>> American Cancer Society, and presented a paper to the Indiana Biological
>>> Association, the only student invited to do so.
>>>
>>> As for "make that friend," you continue to make up things out of whole
>>> cloth.
>>>
>>> Martin
>>
>>I'm going to take a wild guess and say math wasn't your best subject in
>>school, Shackelfordl. Judyth didn't attend St. Francis for two years. I
>>doubt if she even finished a semester.
>
>She didn't. :-)
>
>>You'll remember she said her
>>parents pulled her out when she wanted to become a nun. (Some joke for
>>this alleged future adulterer, huh?) But let's do the math: Judyth was
>>graduated from high school in May or June of 1961. And she entered the
>>University of Florida in the fall of 1962, earning an AA in English in
>>1965. So, at most, that leaves, her one year at St. Francis. Anyone
>>still wonder why this story is such a mess?
>
>According to Judyth, she enter the U of F in February 1962 ... 5 weeks
>late for the start of the semester.
>
Is Judyth telling the truth about that?
Did she attend the U. of Florida?
.John
--------------
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Pamela McElwain-Brown
wrote:
> "Anthony Marsh" <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:StmdnQ6F5JfzqETa...@comcast.com...
>
> > Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
> >> On 12 Mar 2008 23:54:25 -0400, Anthony Marsh
>
> ...
>
> >> You need to scan in the letter and upload it.
>
>
> > We never get ANY documents from you. Only personal attacks.
>
> Tony,
>
> As far as I am aware - & I do know a little of the background to this -
> Barb has spoken to current staff at Roswell & to a former student who was
> contemporaneous there with Judyth. They both tell the same story - Judyth
> was dismissed.
>
> Since these contacts were by phone ( which was not recorded) & email
> (which is fake-able) the only undisputable evidence Barb could possibly
> provide would be the names, emails, & phone numbers of the individuals
> concerned.
>
> The problem is that providing these would subject the two unsuspecting
> people to an inevitable barrage of emails & ringing phones from what the
> outside world regards ( usually quite rightly) as a bunch of Kennedy
> assassination nuts - something pretty well guaranteed to shut them up
> forever.
>
> So - in the near future at least - people here have a choice. They can
> believe that Barb has suddenly taken to fabricating evidence & lying
> through her teeth,
Barb has so far made an accusation supported with innuendo and inference
from an unnamed source. Why should anyone be persuaded?
> or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
Or wonder what else is going on and ask what the rest of the story might
be?
>
> I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as the
> overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
>
You mean jump on Barb's bandwagon?
Anthony Marsh
> I call it chicken on your part, Martin ... because you know damn good
> and well I have offered to send you the complete chain of exchanges,
> complete with all contact info ...and YOU FAILED TO TAKE ME UP ON IT.
>
Another example of the abuse of Moderator Privilege. I would never be
allowed to get away with saying that of you.
> You get roasted because you don't post documents .. you basically post
> 2nd and 3rd hand hearsay either in paraphrase or selected "excerpts."
>
Yeah, Martin doesn't post documents. He sends them to me and I post
documents.
YOU don't post documents.
JLeyd...@aol.com
wrote:
> "it would seem to be" is nonsense, Barb.
>
> As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
> information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
> received a response.
>
> me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
> waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
> something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
>
You reallly don't understand the need for research or how to go about it,
do you, Shackelford? For example, you say you sent Marina Oswald a letter
re Judyth but, when she stiffed you on a reply, you really took no
effective follow-up action. Also you recently alleged that Judyth
conducted cancer research for two years at St. Francis College but that
was impossible because only a year elapsed between her graduation from
high school and enrollment at the University of Florida. (Moreover,
Judyth told us her parents yanked her out of St. Francis when she planned
to become a nun.) Now Barb has shown you how you should have reseaarched
her alleged career at Roswell Park. Of course, it's all over now. Even
Pam isn't coming to you defense any more. Hey, there are other things you
can do.
JGL
paul seaton
> On 14 Mar 2008 18:05:26 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
> <msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>You seem to forget that I have consistently declined to post people's
>>e-mail addresses here without their permission. I don't "blast people
>>across the Net" as some others here do.
>
> Then don't criticize me for "vague
> documentation. :-) And you have been offered the e-mails between me
> and Roswell Park.
Just to confirm I have an email from Barb cc'd to Martin in which this
offer was very explicitly made, some 24 hours ago.
As I understand it, Martin has - thus far - not taken up the offer to see
them.
Paul S
Barb Junkkarinen
<msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>Craig Johnson, the director of the summer research program in which Judyth
>had participated, wrote this in response to my request for information
>about her participation--nothing about her being dismissed, and nothing
>about a bunch of trouble:
>
>> Ms. Vary was from Palmetto, Florida, the Manatee
>> High School. She
>> studied with Dr. George Moore, the Institute
>> Director at that time, The
>> program for high school students ran from July 1
>> through September 1,
>> 1962. Ms. Vary was paid $250 from a National
>> Science Foundation Grant.
>
>Martin
You've been posting that Roswell told you they didn't have much
information.
I don't see that anywhere in what you posted here.
Does that mean this is another of your "excerpts"? Why didn't you post
the entire e-mail ... you've already blabbed the guy's name that you
say wrote to you ...so why not post the entire e-mail ...like I did.
So we can see exactly what ALL was said, as well as when this e-mail
was written ...and to whom.
And again ...unless there is a new claim that she was also there in
1962 ..the dates are wrong here. She was there in 1961.
That he did not tell you she was dismissed doesn't mean it didn't
happen. Maybe he didn't think he should disclose that to you.
I'll stick with my Roswell Park guy ... whose information that Judyth
did not complete the program "as she was dismissed" was INDEPENDENTLY
confirmed, by a student who was there ....and who is unbeknownst to
the Roswell Park guy I have been in touch with.
Barb Junkkarinen
<paulNOse...@paulseaton.com> wrote:
Thank you, Paul ...exactly right.
Barb :-)
>
>
Barb Junkkarinen
<anthon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> Thanks, Paul.
>>
>> This morning, I e-mailed you, Martin and one other person, and offered
>> to send Martin the whole e-mail chain if he would promise not to post
>> or otherwise disseminate this Roswell Park man's contact info.
>>
>
>I am not impressed by e-mails. Anyone can make up any rumor in an e-mail.
>I want to see something official on Roswell Park letterhead.
Then I suggest you get off your &^%&* *^% and call Roswell Park and
make your demand to them..
The e-mail is genuine, even Martin says he does not doubt its
authenticity. And the information Roswell gave me was confirmed by
another person ... they were unbeknownst to one another and they
independently said the same thing.
Barb Junkkarinen
<pamel...@gmail.com> wrote:
I posted the text of the e-mail, Pamela. Only you could call it
innuendo. It flat out says Judyth did not complete the program "as she
was dismissed."
The whole string of our exchanges has been offered to Martin
..complete with all the contact info and the titles and positions of
the man who wrote that info to me.
Martin says he doesn't doubt it is genuine ... and failed to take me
up on the offer.
In addition, which I am sure you have alsi read several times by now,
I was able to make contact with a student who was there that summer
AFTER I already had the e-mail from Roswell Park. He, without knowing
anything about what Roswell Park said, while tripping down mwmory lane
with me about the program overall, and when asked about a few names of
other students I had ...told me his recollections ...and when I
mentioned Juy Vary ...he also had distincr=t recollections in large
part because of all the trouble, all the people talking about it
...and her being discharged from the program.
>
>> or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
>
>Or wonder what else is going on and ask what the rest of the story might
>be?
Please tell me you are not making speculative leaps already. Or iof
you mean what happened that got her discharged ... that hasn't been
discussed.
The dirty details don't really matter, now do they?
>
>>
>> I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as the
>> overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
>>
>
>You mean jump on Barb's bandwagon?
I think he means THINK.
My "bandwagon" is looking for facts and truth.
And yours?
E-mail from person in much titled position at Roswell, who after
ASKING ME who the student was and offering to find out who her mentor
had been for me, came back with the reply that while looking into it
he had "discovered" that she never completed the program "as she was
dismissed."
A few days later, a student recounted the big "whoop-de-do" about it
to me that had everybody talking ..and that Judyth was then
gone....and this was done independently from the guy at Roswell ...
the student didn't know anything about what Roswell had told me at the
time. Unlike you ... I don't offer to help witnesses remember things
like you did with Robt. Frazier. ;-)
Two independednt sources. The whole string of back and forth e-mails
with the Roswell guy offered to Martin ...and Martin fails to take it.
Instead he does this twisting thing like Roswell took the word of some
"Judyth attacker" student ..and buries his head in the sand.
Leave it to you to jump on THAT bandwagon.
This si all nonsense ..there's really nothing to argue over. Two
others have seen the e-mails. I have nothing to hide.
>
Barb Junkkarinen
<pamel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Mar 14, 12:37 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
>wrote:
>> "a big load of trouble" is a new detail--what the hell is that supposed to
>> mean?
>>
>> Martin
>
>Barb seems comfortable presenting nothing which can be verified
>independently.
No, I am not. That's why I sent the e-mails to two other people ...and
offered them to Martin. He failed to accept the offer. He would have
the person's titles, position, name and all contact info.
Why do you suppose he doesn't want that, Pamela?
> Everything is supposed to go 'through her'. This, on
>its own, is mysterious, in that Roswell Park is hardly a clandestine
>organization without a press representative.
I am not dealing with a "press representative." I just do not think
this man's contact info needs to be blasted all over the net. I can't
see inflicting that on any unsuspecting person. And there is no need
to.
> However, the inference
>seems to be that RP is too busy to deal with a slew of JFK
>assassination researchers seeking information
Duh ... ya *think*?
>on the accusation Barb
>is making that involves RP.
Barb didn't make any "accusation." The man at Roswell Park flat out
stated that Judyth did not complete the program as she was dismissed
from it.
Looks pretty straightforward to me.
But I undertook to see if a student remembered anything like that. ANd
lo and behold one does.
> That kind of looks like a big load of
>something.
You're a pip, Pamela. One wonders how you ever get to the library from
your house ...Lord knows a straight line is never your path.
paul seaton
"Pamela McElwain-Brown" <pamel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:33830ee7-7504-49e7...@u10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 14, 12:37 pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:
> "a big load of trouble" is a new detail--what the hell is that supposed to
> mean?
>
> Martin
Barb seems comfortable presenting nothing which can be verified
independently.
# Could easily have been 'verified in dependently' by Martin himself but
for some reason that is frankly hard to fathom he didn't seem particularly
interested. I would imagine Barb's offer to forward him the relevant
emails with nothing redacted still stands. As usual, this is getting
ridiculous.
Paul S
paul seaton
..
>
> No. If it is true she could post a document from Roswell Park.
1) It is either true or Barb has gone mad. Take your pick.
2) She cannot post a document from Roswell Park, because the 'document
from Roswell Park' is an email. In order to verify the email, the address
of the sender would have to be given.
The address of the sender cannot be given because to poor individual
concerned has not deserved to be bombarded with emails from 10,000 JFK
obsessives.
An offer has been made to Martin to show him the relevant emails, complete
with senders email address, subject to conditions about non-disclosure of
same email address.
Martin has not responded to this offer.
Some people ( believe it or not) have lives outside this ng which we do
not have a general right to invade.
Paul S
steve
wrote:
Martin Shackelford is the KING of unnamed sources Pam, get over it, the
whole Team Judyth is down with unnamed sources, its the only way her wacky
story works out.
>
> > or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
>
> Or wonder what else is going on and ask what the rest of the story might
> be?
Duh, thats what Barb is doing! Judyth made up a bunch of crap by weaving a
tale that inserted herself into the lives of people you can find in any
JFK assassination book, and Barb is checking it out. That is something
Team Judyth members should have been doing the past decade. If they had
they wouldnt look so foolish now.
>
>
>
> > I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as the
> > overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
>
> You mean jump on Barb's bandwagon?
Well you jumped on Judyth's bandwagon didnt you? What evidence does
Judyth have again? A pay stub from Reily and a green glass? Are you
kidding me?
Pamela McElwain-Brown
wrote:
> "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:pqult35tfimtrim6n...@4ax.com...
>
> > On 14 Mar 2008 18:05:26 -0400, "Martin Shackelford"
>
> >>You seem to forget that I have consistently declined to post people's
> >>e-mail addresses here without their permission. I don't "blast people
> >>across the Net" as some others here do.
>
> > Then don't criticize me for "vague
> > documentation. :-) And you have been offered the e-mails between me
> > and Roswell Park.
>
> Just to confirm I have an email from Barb cc'd to Martin in which this
> offer was very explicitly made, some 24 hours ago.
>
> As I understand it, Martin has - thus far - not taken up the offer to see
> them.
>
So this is not information that anyone can obtain from RP but secret
information that Martin can only obtain by going through Barb? And you and
Barb are counting the hours it is taking Martin to respond to such a kind
gesture?
JLeyd...@aol.com
wrote:
> This is total nonsense, Leyden.
>
> I NEVER said "the Ochsner money was included in her Reily pay." I never
> said she was paid by Ochsner at all, in any way, shape or form. Why do you
> keep making this stuff up? Or is your memory really that bad?
>
You do wear a guy out, Shackelford. Here's your post of 8/11/06
indicating that the Reily pay covered her work at the secret cancer lab:
Shackelford 8/11/06: "The original summer work would have paid. When she
became involved in the Ferrie project, they had to provide another source
of income, and that's where Reily came in. She was promptly hired as a
secretary, despite a complete lack of secretarial skills." BTW, Judyth
told us many times that Oswald arranged the Reily's job. Remember the
nonsense about the specially-worded newspaper ad. No, I didn't think so.
But you avoided my main question: Where is the documentation that
indicatedshe ever had an internship witjh Ochsner?
JGL
Barb Junkkarinen
In her book, Judyth says she started late, some Dean slipped her into
the system but she didn't really have to attend any classes ... it was
a front of some sort for her research ....and go figure a computer
malfunction that gave her less than stellar grades ...for both
semesters!
>
>Did she attend the U. of Florida?
College is yet to come. :-)
Am about to pack it in and unplug this beast ... leaving early in the
am to catch a plane. I'll be able to get my e-mail while gone, but
doubtful I will be able to post ... so anybody can please keep me
informed of anything newsworthy.
Will be back late on the 24th.
Barb :-)
>
>.John
>--------------
>http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Barb Junkkarinen
<pamel...@gmail.com> wrote:
Is there anything you can not spin on its backside?
I wrote to a person at Roswell .. I got results. Not the result I was
expecting, to be sure ... I just asked a general question saying I was
doing some research on a student who attended their program in 1961
and asking a general question ... he replied and said if I gave him
the student's name he could see if he could tell me who her mentor was
...I thanked him and said that yes, I would like to verify who it was
...his next reply has been posted: He said he looked into it and
discovered that she had not completed the program as she was
dismissed.
I'm not the only one with a keyboard. But inundating Roswell is more
likely to turn off faucets than turn them on. Thus I suggested Martin
get the e-mails and check witht the guy who wrote me if he wants.
Doesn't seem like he wants to do that, Pamela.
It's hardly a secret, Pamela .. I posted about it, I posted the entire
reply sans the contact info, and I offered the whole intact string,
with no redactions to Martin . Some secret.
Can't imagine why Martin wouldn't leap right on this.
Barb Junkkarinen
BTW, I have some info about that green glass giveaway too.<g> But
we're not to New Orleans yet!
Barb :-)
Dave Reitzes
wrote:
> What part of "I contacted Roswell Park long before Barb did" was unclear
> to you, Dave?
>
> Martin
Please stop playing dumb, Martin. You can verify Barb's findings
anytime you want. She's offered numerous times to practically spoon-
feed the information to you.
What are you waiting for?
You just can't face facts, can you, Martin?
> "Dave Reitzes" <dreit...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9b1dbb3f-f8cc-4b07...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On Mar 13, 12:34?am, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
> wrote:
>
> > "it would seem to be" is nonsense, Barb.
>
> > As you know, I e-mailed Roswell Park quite a while back and asked what
> > information they still had about Judyth in their summer program, and
> > received a response.
>
> > What you seem to be saying is that they suddenly know more than they told
> > me at that time, and that you somehow miraculously got in contact with a
> > student who claimed that she had been dismissed. As for "we're all
> > waiting," before any response is contemplated, there is a need to have
> > something more than your summary of vaguely sourced claims.
>
> > Martin
>
> As far as Martin is concerned, it's always someone else's
> responsibility to substantiate Judyth's claims.
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:6oset3dhcf3082m1s...@4ax.com...
>
> > > On 10 Mar 2008 22:00:40 -0400, "James K. Olmstead"
> > > <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > >>"Barb Junkkarinen" <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > >>this just another area that researchers failed to look deeper then just
> > >>taking her word for things?
>
> > > It would seem to be.
>
> > >>If you just found this out last week.......good job.
>
> > > Last Wednesday, March 5th, I heard from Roswell Park. I spoke to the
> > > student this past Sunday, the 9th, and he called me this morning and
> > > we chatted again.
>
> > >> It will be
> > >>interesting to see how things are "explained"........
>
> > > I think we're all waiting.
>
> > > Barb :-)
>
> > >>jko
Dave
paul seaton
#There is no INFERENCE ( the facts are stated in black & white : Judyth
was DISMISSED) & she has made no ACCUSATION, Pamela, she has just stated
that she contacted Roswell by email & got such & such a reply.
It must occur to you that one fine day, probably in the not too distant
future, the facts of Judyth's stay at Roswell will be fully known/ sourced
/ itemised /tied up to the terminal satisfaction of all and sundry, up to
& including Tony Marsh, who will be satisfied with nothing less than a ...
letterhead. . Come that day, * if Barb is making all this up out of thin
air* , her reputation as an honest & sober researcher will be utterly
ruined and no-one will ever again believe a word she says.
She is (believe me) intelligent enough to realise this.
In the light of this, I am prepared to act on the assumption that what she
says is simply true, because I cannot believe that she has suddenly
undergone a total personality transformation, gone insane, and decided to
commit suicide as a generally respected researcher by making all this
stuff up.
The sensible working hypothesis, therefore, is that she did recieve the
reply she says she got.
Anyone who assumes otherwise is, I venture to predict, in for a serious
disappointment.
You should keep in mind that Martin HAS BEEN OFFERED the email of the
source concerned and has shown no interest in learning it. I can only
assume this is because he is not in bullet biting mood this week. Or
perhaps he is even now frantically trying to contact shhh you know who...
and the surprisingly adaptable Judyth story is even now mutating in
hitherto unexpected ways to fit this awkward new revelation ?
What would the betting be ?
Yes !! I know !! The dismissal was stage managed... by the CIA ... ! in
order to allow Judyth to ... ummm... have facial plastic surgery.... so
that she would ...um.... look more like... er.... Marina Oswald..... OK,
it needs some work but believe me something like this is going to crawl
out of some odd Cream Poodle corner the www and poor soft trusting long
suffering Martin will undoubtedly lap up every word of it...
Paul S
paul seaton
# There is a whole real world full of real people out there, Pamela, just
waiting for you to learn how it works.
Think of it as a challenge.
Paul S
Barb Junkkarinen
>On Mar 14, 5:03?pm, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net>
And where's the paper she says she presented at the end of the summer
program at Roswell on Melanogenesis ... that she says was judged one
of the best? And this would be the paper she says she was taken to
present to the "Indiana Biological Association" while at St. Francis
College in Indiana.
One would think that would have been a keeper, eh?
But I am getting ahead of myself here ...
Barb :-)
>
>JGL
Pamela McElwain-Brown
RP is an institution with press releases. It has a reputation to uphold.
It doesn't function in secret. If information has been 'given' only to
Barb who claims it is from RP, does that really make sense?
> the
> whole Team Judyth is down with unnamed sources, its the only way her wacky
> story works out.
>
So the only way to debunk it is through secret information known only to
Barb?
>
> > > or they can believe that Judyth was dismissed.
>
> > Or wonder what else is going on and ask what the rest of the story might
> > be?
>
> Duh, thats what Barb is doing!
Barb has made an accusation backed up so far with nothing but inference
and innuendo from an unnamed source. Barb has not yet released anything
that can be verified. That causes us to ask questions. Is there more to
the story? What is missing? Why the secrecy?
>Judyth made up a bunch of crap by weaving a
> tale that inserted herself into the lives of people you can find in any
> JFK assassination book, and Barb is checking it out.
In that case, why not present all the information she has and let
everyone decide for themselves what to think about it?
>That is something
> Team Judyth members should have been doing the past decade. If they had
> they wouldnt look so foolish now.
>
Martin did contact RP. So have I this week. I have not been graced
with even a reply as yet, much less a list of students who studied at
the same time as Judyth or any secret information.
>
> > > I humbly suggest that reasonable people here now accept the latter as the
> > > overwhelmingly most likely working hypothesis, and move on from there.
>
> > You mean jump on Barb's bandwagon?
>
> Well you jumped on Judyth's bandwagon didnt you? What evidence does
> Judyth have again? A pay stub from Reily and a green glass? Are you
> kidding me?
Judyth was in NOLA in 1963 at the same time as a number of people whom I
believe were involved in the assassination. The fact that she worked at
Reily at the same time as LHO is enough for me to want to hear what she
has to say.