ATTENTION: Ghengis Khan Was Not Asian!
Kaijupro
According to some historical records (for those who are interested, I will
post a list of books reference):
Ghengis Temujin Khan was described as having red hair and dark green eyes
in most accounts.
The populace is carrying on the general collective thought, that because
the Mongols were from that region, that they are automatically Asian.
And others who want to rewrite historical records: Egyptians were black,
because they lived on the (Northern) African continent -- then why would
the Egyptians have a word for the Nubians?
Those interested can respond, and I will list several academic books for
you to reference.
PLEASE -- No Personal Flames, Assaults, or other reactionary resorts; I am
posting this out of the interest of education and research -- I am not
racist against Asians (I give the Japanese about $10g a year), and have
spent several years living in Japan in the late 1980s, and go back as
often as I can.
I have also been supporting Japanese and HK films since the age of 8 (25
years), although I do not suffer from "yellow fever" (according to Giant
Robot).
Peace, Love and Crunchy Granola!
--
August Ragone
Kaiju Productions
"Arashi no yoni yatekuru...aoi mashin-wa Hariken!"
Joshua Shen
My ass he wasn't asian. Let's face it, white people can't stand that they
didn't always rule the world.
Trying to justify it by saying "I love Japanese" culture makes no sense.
Go to Mongolia today. Tell them that Genghis Khan, and subsequently Kublai
Khan were not of the same ethnicities.
When people describe their conquerers, it is always filled wild
hyperboles. I guess white people will never be able to look at an Asian
male as strong and war-like. We must all be passive effeminates.
Genghis Khan wasn't asian my ass.
joshua shen
In article <kaijupro-220...@ppp-asfm07--113.sirius.net>,
Douglas Henderson
and Bodhidharma and Sun Quan had blue eyes, so what. Anomalies occur
where there have been mixing of races. Actually, I thought this thread
was leading up to the popular Japanese notion that Ghengis was Japanese
(actually Yoshitsune)!
Look, I have studied the Mongols, (although I have not read everything)
and I have never come across the notion that Ghengis was not Asian.
Check Empire of the Steppes by Grousett, Rossabi's work, etc., you will
not find it. If you are going to make an assertion like this in a
public post, be straightforward and post your sources in the open, don't
play games.
One possibility, BTW for occasional "non-asian" features among Asians
may be those blond mummies that were found recently. But even that
would not make Ghengis "not Asian" merely not "purely asian."
darrylpe...@yahoo.com
When I was attending film school in Pittsburgh I lived next door to Timuchin
(Timochin, etc...). Really. He was a cool actor from Turkey who came to the
states to study film. His father is/was really into Asian studies and thusly
named him after Ghengis Kahn (Timuchin, in Chinese). I forgot his last name,
but "Tim" (as many called him in short) was a nice guy and didn't wnat to
bother anybody, let alone conquer them. He also did not get drunk and bleed to
death in the snow like his namesake. I wonder what the real Ghengis Kahn would
have been like as a neighbor. I bet he would have tortured a lot of small,
defenseless animals, laughed about it and then expound some heavy philosophy
that would take me a long time to digest. Of course, I'd fear him too. You
wouldn't want him to get left out of a kegger....
Darryl Pestilence
In article <3516FA...@erols.com>,
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Bossk (R)
Kaijupro skrev i meddelandet ...
> Egyptians were black, because they lived on the
> (Northern) African continent -- then why would
> the Egyptians have a word for the Nubians?
And if Norwegians are white, why do they have a word for the Swedes?
yon lew
Douglas Henderson (sons...@erols.com) wrote:
: Joshua Shen wrote:
: >
: > My ass he wasn't asian. Let's face it, white people can't stand that they
: > didn't always rule the world.
: >
: > Trying to justify it by saying "I love Japanese" culture makes no sense.
: > Go to Mongolia today. Tell them that Genghis Khan, and subsequently Kublai
: > Khan were not of the same ethnicities.
: >
: > When people describe their conquerers, it is always filled wild
: > hyperboles. I guess white people will never be able to look at an Asian
: > male as strong and war-like. We must all be passive effeminates.
: >
: > Genghis Khan wasn't asian my ass.
: >
: > joshua shen
: >
: > In article <kaijupro-220...@ppp-asfm07--113.sirius.net>,
: > kaij...@sirius.com (Kaijupro) wrote:
: >
: > > According to some historical records (for those who are interested, I will
: > > post a list of books reference):
: > >
: > > Ghengis Temujin Khan was described as having red hair and dark green eyes
: > > in most accounts.
: > >
: > > The populace is carrying on the general collective thought, that because
: > > the Mongols were from that region, that they are automatically Asian.
: > >
: > > because they lived on the (Northern) African continent -- then why would
: > > the Egyptians have a word for the Nubians?
: > > Those interested can respond, and I will list several academic books for
: > > you to reference.
: > >
: > > PLEASE -- No Personal Flames, Assaults, or other reactionary resorts; I am
: > > posting this out of the interest of education and research -- I am not
: > > racist against Asians (I give the Japanese about $10g a year), and have
: > > spent several years living in Japan in the late 1980s, and go back as
: > > often as I can.
: > >
: > > I have also been supporting Japanese and HK films since the age of 8 (25
: > > years), although I do not suffer from "yellow fever" (according to Giant
: > > Robot).
: > >
: > > Peace, Love and Crunchy Granola!
: > >
: > > --
: > > August Ragone
: > > Kaiju Productions
: > >
: > > "Arashi no yoni yatekuru...aoi mashin-wa Hariken!"
: and Bodhidharma and Sun Quan had blue eyes, so what. Anomalies occur
: where there have been mixing of races. Actually, I thought this thread
: was leading up to the popular Japanese notion that Ghengis was Japanese
: (actually Yoshitsune)!
Ha, I was wondering when someone was going to mention this.
Given the predilection for various nationalities to "claim" Genghis Khan,
I'm not surprised at the latest revisionist gimmicks.
STRA...@webtv.net
Ancient Egyptians were Black, smart ass.
Kaijupro
> Given the predilection for various nationalities to "claim" Genghis Khan,
> I'm not surprised at the latest revisionist gimmicks.
No revisionism, Brother Lew, just the historical records by the Chinese
and the Persians.
Read my new post: "Ghengis Khan-sternation II: Electric Bugaloo" for the facts.
Peace.
--
August Ragone
Kaiju Productions (since 1974)
Eng...@earthlink.net
Kaijupro wrote:
>
> > Given the predilection for various nationalities to "claim" Genghis Khan,
> > I'm not surprised at the latest revisionist gimmicks.
>
> No revisionism, Brother Lew, just the historical records by the Chinese
> and the Persians.
>
> Read my new post: "Ghengis Khan-sternation II: Electric Bugaloo" for the facts.
>
> Peace.
>
SCAA's Official Host,
#1 Evil Flamewarrior,
Eng
Kaijupro
Based on the responses I have recieved:
First, the facts:
The only extant writings we have regarding Ghengis Khan, written by
persons who could have possibly know him, we done by Chinese scribes, and
these writings are known as "The Secret History of the Mongols" (North
Point Press, San Francisco, CA), or another translation from another
publisher, whom I can't recall at this time.
In these writings, he is described as having "red hair and grey eyes,"...
now, based on years of work in Japan, I can't recall seeing any true
red-heads with light-colored eyes (although someone with these features
may exist somewhere in the Japanese Islands).
Having lived in the asian-heavy (Japanese, Hong Kongese, Koreans, Chinese,
Thai, Taiwanese, Vietnamese, Burmese, etc., etc., etc.) city of San
Francisco all my life -- and I cannot recall every seeing a single
red-headed Asian; although, a friend of mine recalls a possible Eurasian
(but, with very Asiatic features) with rust-colored hair and light-brown
eyes -- and only this one, during his twenty-five years in San Francisco
(he incidentally hangs out with quite a few Asians -- being involved in
the martial arts, etc.). I, personally, have never seen anything except
Japanese exchange students with green hair (possibly dyed).
But seriously...
Secondly, the next best source on Ghengis Khan was written by a Persian
Court Clerk, it's titled "A History of the World-Conqueror" by Juvani (I
believe), translated in English by Boyle (recently republished). I don't
remember offhand, if Juvani mentions a physical description of the Khan,
but its a hell of a read.
Numerous scholary works mention "The Secret History of the Mongols" and
its description of Ghengis Khan; just a shread of evidence, but evidence
nontheless. If it had not an unusual feature, the chroniclers would not
have mentioned it. BTW, the chronicler was not White -- he was Chinese.
We can choose to ignore facts if we want, or ignore evidence to build our
perfect model, but it is not good scientific analysis. One of you have
mentioned the possibility of racial mixing anamolies; this is a
possibility, however unlikely, as ancient (and even modern) pastoral
people tend to keep themselves, and not mix. If in fact, this were the
case, and Ghengis Khan was the result of racial mixing, then he was
therefore Eurasian, and not Asian, making your point mute.
It is perfectly possible that he was European or Eurasian, much as
Hannibal was not African (i.e. by this, I mean non-black), yet led a
multi-racial (or ethnic, if you prefer) army into Europe. The point being,
merely because Hannibal came from Africa, leading an African army, does
not make him Black (as the Afrocentrics would have us believe).
--------------------------------------------
Regarding the Egyptians, get yourself a good color photographic art
history book on the topic, and study for yourself, the physcial
differences between the way they portrayed themselves, and the way in
which they protrayed other peoples: such as the Sea Peoples, the Hittites,
and finally (but not unimportantly), the Nubians; well... its obvious, but
if you can see it, I can't help you -- some people refuse to face facts.
BTW, the Egyptians painted these portraits THEMSELVES -- not some later
Eurocentric so-called racists. Facts is Facts.
---------------------------------------------
Regarding White people being unable to accept Asian Males as Heroic,
Valiant, Warriors, or Important Historical Figures...
Well, I dunno... I guess being a White Male who watched Bruce Lee; read
the "Book of Five Rings" and "The Art of War"; admires Admiral Togo and
studied his Battles and Philosophies; has a special place in his heart for
General Yamashita; was told by natvies that I was Japanese for visiting
and paying respects at the Garve of the 47 Ronin; being one in a handful
of people in the US who knows that Sonny Chiba is cool; an ardent student
of Sun Yat-Sen; down with Mao and his hounding down the Gang of Four; and
as the King of Siam once said, "Ecetera, Ecetera, Ecetera,"...
Yeah, you're right a Honkey could never have an Asian Hero.
Abayo, Nezumiyaro-tachi!
P.S. I not in it for the Asian Chicks -- I'm down with the Cholitas.
P.P.S. Define "Asian"; come on what's it mean? The Chinese and the
Japanese certainly did not want anything to do with Ghengis Khan -- in
fact, we can be certain of one thing: Ghengis Khan never heard of "Asia"
or "Asians".
Hong-liang Xie
Kaijupro (kaij...@sirius.com) wrote:
: > Given the predilection for various nationalities to "claim" Genghis Khan,
: > I'm not surprised at the latest revisionist gimmicks.
: No revisionism, Brother Lew, just the historical records by the Chinese
: and the Persians.
: Read my new post: "Ghengis Khan-sternation II: Electric Bugaloo" for the facts.
: Peace.
: --
: August Ragone
: Kaiju Productions (since 1974)
: "Arashi no yoni yatekuru...aoi mashin-wa Hariken!"
You first have to make clear how you define an asian. Don't forget
asian people include people from east, southeast, west Asia.
Asian people cover a wide variety of physical features...
Hongliang
Kaijupro
In article <6fdtc0$t0j$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, hx...@gradin.cis.upenn.edu
(Hong-liang Xie) wrote:
> Asian people cover a wide variety of physical features...
So, you cannot define "asian" so easily... Ghengis Khan, was more likely a
Eurasian, due to the physical description given by Persian and Chinese
scholars of the time.
Heiwa.
Hong-liang Xie
Kaijupro (kaij...@sirius.com) wrote:
: In article <6fdtc0$t0j$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, hx...@gradin.cis.upenn.edu
: (Hong-liang Xie) wrote:
: > Asian people cover a wide variety of physical features...
: So, you cannot define "asian" so easily... Ghengis Khan, was more likely a
: Eurasian, due to the physical description given by Persian and Chinese
: scholars of the time.
Then how do you define Eurasian? Is that definition easier than
asian? How would you classify Indian people? A good portion of
them are pretty dark, right? Africasian?
In China, the minority people from Xinjiang have some features similar
to those of Europeans. Are they qualified to be Eurasians? Actually,
north Chinese people have blended blood from those people in the long
history of China. Since we are running out of terms for all of them ...
Hongliang
Hong-liang Xie
Kaijupro (kaij...@sirius.com) wrote:
: In article <6fdtc0$t0j$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, hx...@gradin.cis.upenn.edu
: (Hong-liang Xie) wrote:
: > Asian people cover a wide variety of physical features...
: So, you cannot define "asian" so easily... Ghengis Khan, was more likely a
: Eurasian, due to the physical description given by Persian and Chinese
: scholars of the time.
BTW, I didn't mean to say that one can not define "asian" easily.
Just that you need to give us your definition when you discuss
whether somebody is an asian, especially when your conclusion is
not conventional.
Hongliang
yon lew
Kaijupro (kaij...@sirius.com) wrote:
: > Given the predilection for various nationalities to "claim" Genghis Khan,
: > I'm not surprised at the latest revisionist gimmicks.
: No revisionism, Brother Lew, just the historical records by the Chinese
: and the Persians.
: Read my new post: "Ghengis Khan-sternation II: Electric Bugaloo" for the facts.
What about all the pictures of him in that case? By the 1200's
representative portraiture in China was well established, and all of the
pictures of Ghengis Khan that I've seen don't show red hair or green eyes.
yon lew
Kaijupro (kaij...@sirius.com) wrote:
: In article <6fdtc0$t0j$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, hx...@gradin.cis.upenn.edu
: (Hong-liang Xie) wrote:
: > Asian people cover a wide variety of physical features...
: So, you cannot define "asian" so easily... Ghengis Khan, was more likely a
: Eurasian, due to the physical description given by Persian and Chinese
: scholars of the time.
When did the Persians start describing Ghengis Khan as having red hair
and green eyes?
Eng...@earthlink.net
Kaijupro wrote:
>
> In article <6fdtc0$t0j$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, hx...@gradin.cis.upenn.edu
> (Hong-liang Xie) wrote:
>
> > Asian people cover a wide variety of physical features...
>
> So, you cannot define "asian" so easily... Ghengis Khan, was more likely a
> Eurasian, due to the physical description given by Persian and Chinese
> scholars of the time.
>
>
>
C'mon, Ghengis Khan was a mongol. That makes him an Asian. Next thing
you're going to tell us is that Jackie Chan is actually a white guy.
--
Eng...@earthlink.net
Actually, the philospher that one poster mentioned was that he had "grey
eyes", not green eyes.
Dan Helmick
On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 08:48:56 -0800, Eng...@earthlink.net wrote:
>C'mon, Ghengis Khan was a mongol. That makes him an Asian. Next thing
>you're going to tell us is that Jackie Chan is actually a white guy.
Look closely at Jackie's American movie posters, and you can see it...
Dan
Kailin
> August Ragone
> Kaiju Productions (since 1974)
>
> "Arashi no yoni yatekuru...aoi mashin-wa Hariken!"
OK, I am flying blind here, without a reference book in sight, but I
seem to recall that Khan was around just before the fall of the Roman
Empire. So, that is about 1700 years ago, or so. Now, I believe that the
Mongols were doing the expansion thing at this time, moving out in all
directions. That being West, because they did get into the Middle-East,
and also South, because the Great Wall was built for a reason. So, if we
can assume that they were moving into China, then they must have come
from without it. To be precise, the north of China. This region is also
just south of Siberia, putting Mongolia in between the two countries.
Now, if someone would tell me how big of a territory the Mongols had
just before their expansion began, and where they were at that time,
that would be helpful. I don't think that their current border, and
their borders of 1700 years ago, are the same thing. It is quite
possible that some of them are a result of a mix of peoples from the
Steppes and of peoples from the northern portions of China, like
Manchuria. Look at their writing, it is very Persian looking to me,
which could be an influence of their western expansion, or as a result
of their ethnicity.
Northwestern China is full of ethnic minorities that are not Chinese,
and that are not really Asian. The Uighurs, Turfans and Yi people are
not Chinese, ethnically. Those that live in the Silk Road region
actually came off the Steppes of southern Russia. Many of them are
Blonde and Blue eyed, but because they live inside Chinese borders now,
they are citizens of China. But they are recognized as ethnic minorities
and accorded different laws, the way Native Americans within the US are
according tribal law.
It all boils down to one thing. The word Asian is just a reference to a
place, not a race. Afterall, on some maps, Siberia is considered being
in Asia, and not being in Europe, because of the region it is in, and
not what country holds sovreignty. And unless you can get into a time
machine and look at Ghengis Khan yourself, this argument will not be
solved on this newsgroup.
--
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Kailin
yon lew
Kailin (kai...@ibm.net) wrote:
: OK, I am flying blind here, without a reference book in sight, but I
: seem to recall that Khan was around just before the fall of the Roman
: Empire. So, that is about 1700 years ago, or so.
Actually, Genghis Khan died around 1240 or so, 700 years ago and well
after the fall of Rome. You're probably thinking about the Huns and
Visigoths, who did get around to sacking Rome.
: Now, I believe that the
: Mongols were doing the expansion thing at this time, moving out in all
: directions. That being West, because they did get into the Middle-East,
: and also South, because the Great Wall was built for a reason. So, if we
: can assume that they were moving into China, then they must have come
: from without it. To be precise, the north of China. This region is also
: just south of Siberia, putting Mongolia in between the two countries.
: Now, if someone would tell me how big of a territory the Mongols had
: just before their expansion began, and where they were at that time,
: that would be helpful.
Pretty small, from what I remember. I think they're often described as
"localized" before they started off on their big tear across the world.
: I don't think that their current border, and
: their borders of 1700 years ago, are the same thing. It is quite
: possible that some of them are a result of a mix of peoples from the
: Steppes and of peoples from the northern portions of China, like
: Manchuria. Look at their writing, it is very Persian looking to me,
: which could be an influence of their western expansion, or as a result
: of their ethnicity.
I dunno how "Persian" their writing looks, but when Kublai Khan settled
down and decided to try and building an empire he chose Beijing as his
capital and used the Chinese dynastic model to set up his royal court. I
think they were called the Yalu dynasty, or something.
: Northwestern China is full of ethnic minorities that are not Chinese,
: and that are not really Asian. The Uighurs, Turfans and Yi people are
: not Chinese, ethnically. Those that live in the Silk Road region
: actually came off the Steppes of southern Russia. Many of them are
: Blonde and Blue eyed, but because they live inside Chinese borders now,
: they are citizens of China. But they are recognized as ethnic minorities
: and accorded different laws, the way Native Americans within the US are
: according tribal law.
Actually, there are blond Chinese as well. I think it has something to
do with a nutritional deficiency or something.
: It all boils down to one thing. The word Asian is just a reference to a
: place, not a race. Afterall, on some maps, Siberia is considered being
: in Asia, and not being in Europe, because of the region it is in, and
: not what country holds sovreignty. And unless you can get into a time
: machine and look at Ghengis Khan yourself, this argument will not be
: solved on this newsgroup.
Yeah, except they had good court artists around at the time who were able
to draw his picture.
Douglas Henderson
Kailin wrote:
>
> OK, I am flying blind here, without a reference book in sight, but I
> seem to recall that Khan was around just before the fall of the Roman
> Empire. So, that is about 1700 years ago, or so. Now, I believe that the
> Mongols were doing the expansion thing at this time, moving out in all
> directions. That being West, because they did get into the Middle-East,
> and also South, because the Great Wall was built for a reason. So, if we
> can assume that they were moving into China, then they must have come
> from without it. To be precise, the north of China. This region is also
> Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
>
> Kailin
Yikes! Kailin, please look at a reference book :-)
Try the Empire of the Steppes by Grousset. What I think is confusing
you is that there have been different groups that have swarmed out of
Central Asia at different times. The great wall (actually walls) were
built about 2,300+ years ago to keep out people that may be the
forerunners of the Huns, not the mongols. The mongol script was. IIRC
derived from Uighar, not persian. Sorry, but you are not beginning with
historical fact, take a look at the reference works and then try again.
OTOH I agree with the last part of what you said. If there were a group
of fair skinned types in the regions before the mongols as recent
archaeology suggest, then what we consider Asian may have to change.
Even if you are talking about race, the asian race contains so many
different types that it is a useless distinction. If Asians are both
Indians and mongols then the definition leaves a lot to be desired.
My take on the whole Yellowface issue is simple. There are too few jobs
available for asian actors and they are generally not considered for
"white" roles (i.e. "non-asian" roles) so give them first crack at Asian
roles. Of course, the danger is that it could become a ghetto for
asians and restrict them but, what else can be done?
With Respect,
Kailin
Ol' BattleMonkey wrote:
>
> For my high school prom, I rented my tux from Ghengis Formal Wear in the
> mall. I was disappointed that it wasn't all furry. But much like the
> Mongol Hordes of old, I spent a lot of time that night just sort of
> wandering around and eating lots of food.
>
> Ol' BM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! I needed that, thanks dude.
--
Peace, Love and Rock & Roll,
Kailin
"When hell freezes over, we can all play hockey there."
Ol' BattleMonkey
Kaijupro
That's what I posted "grey eyes"...