Wu-xia novels and HK cinema
deadmead
films several times since CTHD became a hot topic in this NG, someone asked
me via e-mail for more detail. I reckon some people in this NG might also be
interested in this issue, and so I just talk a little bit about the
relationship between the two most important wu-xia writers (Jing Yong and
Goo Lung) and HK cinema. (note, I do know this issue has been brought up
before in this NG; yet, now is maybe a time to talk about it again).
First of all, re-state my view during the CTHD backlash November and
December last year: wu-xia is not only a movie genre but also a literary one
(it doesn't matter whether you see wu-xia novels as "literature" or not,
there exist thousands of wu-xia novels in Chinese society). Thus, it's not a
surprise that in HK cienma the filmmakers would make wu-xia movies based on
wu-xia novels. And this "based on novels" thing has been extremely popular
since mid-1970s. Many of HK wu-xia movies since the mid 1970s are based on
the works of Goo Lung and Jing Yong, the two most popular wu-xia writers.
Goo Lung's novels sort of dominated the HK wu-xia cinema from mid 1970s to
mid 1980s, and from mid 1980s, Jing Yong's works seemed to take over. Based
on my personal observation, Goo Lung's style fits the 70s and 80s Shaw
brothers films better: a fairly romantic / tragic and fictional wu-xia world
which rarely has distinct historical background. It also has to do with the
shift of popularity of these two authors. Since mid 1980s, Jing Yong's works
have been the clear favorite for wu-xia film and TV adaptation in HK and
Taiwan (due to the fact that Jing Yong have been the most popluar wu-xia
writers in Chinese
society since mid 1980s). During the heyday of "Goo Lung / Shaw Brothers
movies," Goo Lung not only wrote the scripts but also directed and starred
in few wu-xia movies. There are too many "Goo Lung" films, here I just use
the movies starring Ti Lung (my favorite Wu-Xia star) as examples: "The
Magic Blade" (1976), "Clans of Intrigue" (1977), "Jade Tiger" (1977), "The
Sentimental Swordsman" (1977), "Pursuit of Vengeance (1977), "Legend of Bat"
(1978), "Swordsman and Enchantress" (1978), "The Deadly Breaking Sword"
(1979), "Clan Feuds" (1982), "Perils of the Sentimental Swordsman" (1982).
These are just "examples." In the meantime, Jing Yong's works hadn't been
adapted as widely as Goo Lung's, and the reason would probably be the length
and depth of Jing Yong's works didn't fit 70s and 80s wu-xia movies well.
However, we still got "Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre
part I & II" (1978, Jet Li's "The Kung Fu Cult Master" is based on the same
original novel) and "The Emperor and His Brother" (1981, Ann Hui's "Romance
of The Book and Sword I&II" are based on the same novel; also, Ti Lung
played Chan Ka Lok in this film, and his peformance is ineffable).
Just a flash of my memory, some "Jing Yong movies" since the late 80s in
addition to "The Kung Fu Cult Master" and "Romance": "Royal Tramp I & II"
(based on THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON), "Swordsman I&II", "Ashes of Time",
"The Eagle Shooting Heroes", "Dragon Chronicles: The Maidens of Heavenly
Mountain", "The Story of the Flying Fox / The Sword of Many Loves", and
"Sword Stained with Royal Blood." Note, these movies were all made after the
heyday of wu-xia genre films (that is, very few in quantity compared to the
"wu-xia novel" films during mid 70s and mid 80s). "Goo Lung" movies are
still out there (such as "Handsome Siblings" and "A Warrior's Tragedy"), but
in quantity are much less than "Jing Yong" ones.
Few things to note:
1. There are many more non-Goo Lung - Jing Yong- wu-xia novel films have
been made. Tusi Hark's "Zu", "Dreadful Melody", and "The Bride with White
Hair" are all based on wu-xia novels.
2. Most recent "Jing Yong" films (all those I list above) aren't really
faithfully based on the original novels. In most cases, the only similiarity
between the original novels and the movies are the "names" of the
characters. Some HK TV drama would do a better job in keeping up with the
original. Thus, in a sense, these movies are and are not based on the
original novels at the same time. Through departing from the original, some
filmmakers did a good job, some not. IMO, getting far, far away from the
original, WKW did a pretty good job constructing his personal wu-xia
universe in "Ashes of Time"; Also quite different from the original novel,
"The Swordsman I & II" are also decent films. "East Is Red" has more to do
with "Swordsman II" than to Jing Yong's novel. Ann Hui departs from the
original too, but as far as WKW, yet, her two "Romance" are by far the best
"Jing Yong" movie I've seen (to some degree even better than the original).
3. Ti Lung had once established himself as THE representative of Xia. In the
"Golden days" of Shaw Brothers, he mostly played the knight errants created
by Goo Lung. In his latest (maybe the last?) "Goo Lung" film "A Warrior's
Tragedy" (1993), he played the same knight errant character in his classics
"The Magic Blade" and "Pursuit of Vengeance." Yet, as I mention, he also
played Jing Yong's Chen Ka Lok in "The Emperor and His Brother" and his
performance in this film and this film itself are still among my personal
favorites.
4. Finally, most "wu-xia novel" films since the late 80s aren't faithfully
based on the original novels. The original plots and characters have been
altered to a great degree. Yet, the basic wu-xia theme is the same for the
novel and films. Or, HK filmmakers since the late 80s would go back to
wu-xia novels to seek inspiration and "create" new wu-xia worlds based on
the basic wu-xia concepts and plots of wu-xia novels.
deadmead
Websurfer
http://www.heroic-cinema.com/articles/wuxia.htm
deadmead
"Websurfer" <Webs...@nospam.com> 撰寫於郵件
news:3A623C33...@nospam.com...
> This is also a good link to intorduce HK movies and wuxia novels:
> http://www.heroic-cinema.com/articles/wuxia.htm
>
Maybe need to read this site with a better knowledge of Chinese literature.
Making direct connection between "Three Kingdoms," "Outlaws of the Marsh"
and "Journey to the West" and wu-xia "literature" (with '' '' becasue many
don't consider
it as literature) is going to piss off many Chinese literature scholars and
upset ordinary
traditional Chinese literature readers.
The core characteristics and spiritual principles of "knight errant" / Xia
has been around
in Chinese literature for thousands of years, but not until the turn of 19th
/ 20th century
Wu-Xia became a distinct "literary" genre. In general, wu-xia novels in
Chinese society
would not be considered as "serious" literature at all. Something the
parents wouldn't
want their kids to read during high school years. Yet, many of us grew up
reading (and
probably continue to read) wu-xia novels.
deadmead
Mr. Peel/Rabbi Judah Low Ben Bezulel
Invincible Power Of Kindness", just in case anyone cares.
By the way, good post, as usual. I enjoy reading your stuff.
--
Edshugeo The GodMoor
http://www.mp3.com/psychovoyager
http://www.mp3.com/ejam
The Scapegoat: The crowning insult to him who occupies the presidential
chair
From Thomas Nast - Cartoons And Illustrations plate 34
"deadmead" <kjc...@loyno.edu> wrote in message
news:HGo86.1226$a32....@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
deadmead
"Mr. Peel/Rabbi Judah Low Ben Bezulel" <edsh...@optonlineYOUMutha.net> 撰寫
於郵件 news:KAv86.40278$nj5.3...@news02.optonline.net...
> You mentioned "A Warriors Tragedy". That film is on DVD as "The
> Invincible Power Of Kindness", just in case anyone cares.
thanks for pointing this out. I knew there's a DVD version of this film
under a different
English title (which is more close to the literal meaning of the original
title), but I was not
able to recall what it was when I posted the message.
It was great for me to see in this movie, Ti Lung played the same character
which made him one of the biggest wu-xia stars decades ago. In fact, all his
90s appearances in wu-xia films ("Bare Foot Kid" and "Blade of Fury" being
the other two) excited me a lot and stirred up my wu-xia nostalghia.
Especially
Johnny To's "Bare Foot Kid," a great film and a remake of (homeage to)
Cheung
Cheh's classic "Disciples of Shaolin."
deadmead
DRutsala
DaleWBerry
Lung and that sense of nostalgia one gets from WARRIOR'S TRAGEDY and BAREFOOT
KID(they conjures up memories of his early Shaws films for me every time I
watch 'em),though his SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN movies were personal favorites of
mine [its all about those moments when he'd make a move and then reveal the
poem written on his fan:"The flying daggers of Little Li..."/"...Never miss
their target". Smooth! :)]. The second film,with Fu Sheng,was a favorite. One
of Gu Long's films,MOONLIGHT MURDERER,also stands out in my memory. Those
70's-80's movies always impress me for their style...visually they remind me of
the rich textures of European 'gothic' cinema,crossed with the Magical Realism
found in literature.
Speaking of which: I think the equivalent to wuxia in American Lit. would be
found in the history of dime novels/pulp magazines/paperback book series
published here in the last two centuries. A great deal of current American
folklore and 'popular myth' comes from them -much the same as with wuxia.
Thanks again for the background info. A pleasure as always...I'm digging out my
ROMANCE OF BOOK AND SWORD LD this afternoon... :)
Dale
deadmead
"DRutsala" <drut...@aol.com> źśźgŠóślĽó
news:20010115170451...@ng-fv1.aol.com...
> Are there any good English translations of these authors?
>
I don't know whether there's any "good" English translations. Jing Yong's
(Louis Cha) THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON is the only wu-xia novel being
translated into English so far. AFAIK, this book isn't very, very difficult
to find in the US.
deadmead
>
deadmead
"DaleWBerry" <dalew...@aol.com> ?????
news:20010115174237...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
> Ah,deadmead,a film lover after my own heart. Totally agree with you about
Ti
> Lung and that sense of nostalgia one gets from WARRIOR'S TRAGEDY and
BAREFOOT
> KID(they conjures up memories of his early Shaws films for me every time I
> watch 'em),though his SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN movies were personal favorites
of
> mine [its all about those moments when he'd make a move and then reveal
the
> poem written on his fan:"The flying daggers of Little Li..."/"...Never
miss
> their target". Smooth! :)].
yeah! one of the most famous Goo Lung lines (probably one of the most famous
wu-xia lines!). Ti Lung is perfect for Goo Lung's tragic / sentimental
heroes; yet,
he's also perfect for Jing Yong type of knight errant. in other words, he is
perfect
for wu-xia world!
>The second film,with Fu Sheng,was a favorite.
This is a great one too. In terms of popularity, Little Li is definietely
more
famous than Fu Hon-Shua ("red snow"). And Fu Sheng...sigh....I will never
forget
his "The Proud Twins" and "Cat vs. Rat" (what an excellent wu-xia "comedy"
it is!)
deadmead
fiendis...@my-deja.com
> I don't know whether there's any "good" English translations. Jing
Yong's
> (Louis Cha) THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON is the only wu-xia novel being
> translated into English so far. AFAIK, this book isn't very, very
difficult
> to find in the US.
I think it's online somewhere. I also found Jin Yong's FOX VOLANT OF
THE SNOW MOUNTAIN a long time ago, but was too busy to read it.
Miles
--
ISOLATION FROM NO. 13
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Jeff Coleman
<fiendis...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:940gg8$ohs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> > I don't know whether there's any "good" English translations. Jing
> Yong's
> > (Louis Cha) THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON is the only wu-xia novel being
> > translated into English so far. AFAIK, this book isn't very, very
> difficult
> > to find in the US.
The First Book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195903234/o/qid=979622122/sr=8-1/ref
=aps_sr_b_1_1/105-4288547-0809518
The Second Book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195903250/o/qid=979622122/sr=8-2/ref
=aps_sr_b_1_2/105-4288547-0809518
(blasted long URLs will surely get chopped up...)
Apparently only two of the three books are published. :(
I'm just into the second book and I really enjoy it.
> I think it's online somewhere. I also found Jin Yong's FOX VOLANT OF
> THE SNOW MOUNTAIN a long time ago, but was too busy to read it.
>
Jeff Coleman
charm is real, progress is power!
www.handofgod.com
DaleWBerry
> And Fu Sheng...sigh....I will never
>forget
>his "The Proud Twins" and "Cat vs. Rat" (what an excellent wu-xia "comedy"
>it is!)
I first became really aware of Fu Sheng(I didn't catch his earlier Shaolin
films until later)when I caught AVENGING EAGLES first run. Next came DEADLY
BREAKING SWORD,which was released as a double-bill with AE again,in San
Francisco. I sought out his films wherever they played after that:PROUD
TWINS,the BRAVE ARCHER movies,HEROES SHED NO TEARS,10 TIGERS,CAT VS. RAT...
I remember thinking when I first saw the early Jackie Chan movies how much his
screen persona was indebted to Fu. (one more reason to wait for SB films on
DVD,I guess...)
Btw,and turning from Fu for the moment,but I've got a wuxia inquiry for you. I
recall seeing movies about a character known as The Imperial Cat,or His
Majesty's Cat. I've read that this character originated in wuxia novels. Might
you know anything about this series?
-Dale
deadmead
"DaleWBerry" <dalew...@aol.com> ?????
news:20010116013801...@ng-bg1.aol.com...
> >From: "deadmead"
>
> > And Fu Sheng...sigh....I will never
> >forget
> >his "The Proud Twins" and "Cat vs. Rat" (what an excellent wu-xia
"comedy"
> >it is!)
>
> I first became really aware of Fu Sheng(I didn't catch his earlier Shaolin
> films until later)when I caught AVENGING EAGLES first run. Next came
DEADLY
> BREAKING SWORD,which was released as a double-bill with AE again,in San
> Francisco. I sought out his films wherever they played after that: PROUD
> TWINS,the BRAVE ARCHER movies,HEROES SHED NO TEARS,10 TIGERS,CAT VS.
RAT...
Fu Sheng was arguably the most popular (or important to a degree) wu-xia /
kung fu star in the heyday
of shaw brothers films. Not only all his collaboration with Ti Lung are
classics, Cheung Cheh loves to
use him because his young / ruthless / innocent / sweet / rightouse persona
fits perfectly to Cheung Chen's
such basic themes as realizing one's "self" and fighting against authority.
At that time, Fu Sheng was almost
the alter ego of Cheung Cheh. Fu Sheng was the first popular "Fong Sai-Yuk"
in HK cinema (and it wouldn't
be far fetch to say that all the following Fong Sai-Yuk (s), including Jet
Li's, look at Fu Sheng for inspiration
if you haven't seen "Heroes Two" and "The Shaolin Avengers"). And until now,
IMO, his "Little Fish" in "Proud
Twins" is still the most charming "Little Fish" in either films or TV
dramas. Not to mention the perfect collaboration
of him and Cheung Cheh in "Disciples of Shaolin" and "Na Cha the Great"
(the classic Cheung Cheh / Fu Sheng
anti-authority / self-realizing films).
Glad you mentioned "The Brave Archer." This movie and its sequel (directed
by Cheung Cheh as usual) are one of
those "Jing Yong" movies in the golden days of wu-xia genre. Seeing this
film (more faithful based on the original), you
wouldn't believe "Ashes of Time" is also based on the same novel. Fu Sheng's
another "Jing Yong" movie is "Brave
Archer and His Mate" and IMO (well, I'm getting old), his "Yeoh Gwu" (the
main character in the novel and film) is still
the most charming and impressive one (note, Andy Lau got up basically
because of his "Yeoh Gwu" character in the TV
series based on the novel).
>
> I remember thinking when I first saw the early Jackie Chan movies how much
his
> screen persona was indebted to Fu. (one more reason to wait for SB films
on
> DVD,I guess...)
I'd agree with you. His charming / "funny" persona was unique at that time,
and most early Jackie films had
very similar flavor that Cheung Cheh / Fu Sheng films had.
>
> Btw,and turning from Fu for the moment,but I've got a wuxia inquiry for
you. I
> recall seeing movies about a character known as The Imperial Cat,or His
> Majesty's Cat. I've read that this character originated in wuxia novels.
Might
> you know anything about this series?
This is quite a long and "difficult" issue; "difficult" becasue the
"translation" thing.
Ok, We mentioned "Cat vs. Rat" right? The "Cat" (played by Adam Cheng) IS
the "Imperial Cat" you refer to. In the film, Fu Sheng is the "bright-hair
Rat."
These two characters are "folk tale" and "legendary" figures in Chinese
society.
They are fictional characters in a late Ching Dynasty novel "Seven Xia and
Five rightouse brothers" (it should be "five 'E' [with the 4th sound in
Mandarin], I
can't find the English equavalient for this word, and "rightouse brothers"
maybe sufficient
here). This novel techniqually IS NOT a wu-xia novel, it is a "classic"
Chinese "xia-e" novel
(xia and "brotherhood" maybe, but the meaning of "e" is much, much more than
just "brotherhood.").
However, it can be said that all classic "xia-e" novels are the root of
modern wu-xia novels.
"Seven Xia and Five Rightouse Brothers" is a "xia-e" novel that dramatizes
one of the most
famous Chinese historical figure: Po Kun. In the novel, Po Kun is a governer
of a county, but
he is selfless and holds the "justice" at all cause. (there's one Chinese
expression to describe people
like him: "Iron face which is selfless / justice"). And he has a lot of help
from seven xia and five rightouse
brothers. Seven xia are 7 blood brothers and five rightouse brothers (in
Jianghu, people would call them
five Rats) are also blood brothers; All those who've seen CTHD already had
the taste of the "title"
of Jianghu characters right? Each one of 7 xia and 5 rats has his own
"title". The "Imperial
Cat" is the leader of seven xia, and "Bright-Hair cat" is the youngest among
the five rightouse brothers.
The interesting thing is that (and the inspiration of the movie "Cat vs.
Rat) these two groups of Jianghu
characters, although all help Po Kun to fight and bring evil to the justice,
don't like each other; thus
there are many interesting "inside fight" between the two groups. From the
title "Cat vs. Rat," you would
know the "imperial cat" is smarter than the "rat." Baiscally, the
traditional "xia-e" novels have all the elements
that modern wu-xia novels have, but "xia-e" novels focus more on rightouse
knight errants / or people help
weak people and fight for justice; the modern wu-xia novels, in general
focuses more on creating fancy
wu-xia worlds.
In the movie, Adam Cheng is perfect in the role of "Imperial cat": smart and
has the flavor of "xia," and
Fu Sheng is the best filmic representive of "Bright-Hair Rat" (young /
ruthless / innocent...). Jackie Chan is
also good for the part (but, IMO, he isn't charming enough compared to Fu
Sheng).
Last note, "Cat vs. Rat" is directed by wu-shu master Liu Chia-Liang (one of
the most important figure in HK
wu-xia / kung fu cinema). To older wu-xia fans, the Liu family is probably
more important than Yuen family (
Woo-ping being the most important figure of this family now) in the heyday
of wu-xia films. IMO, the Liu family
style jsut didn't fit into "modern" action / kung-fu films as the Yuen
family style. If you've seen any of Liu family
classic such as "Cat vs. Rat," "Odd Couple," "He Has Nothing But Kung," "The
Fu36th Chamber of Shaolin"
and etc., you would know "Tiger On Beat" is a disaster. Since the mid 80s,
Liu Chia-Liang only shines when directing
"Martial Arts of Shaolin" or in the duel with Sammo in "Pedicab Driver," and
Lau Ka-Wing shines brightly (although
people are talking about Yuen Woo-Ping all the time) being the martial arts
choreographer of "Once Upon A Time
In China."
deadmead
zhuge...@my-deja.com
Just did some quick research:
From Amazon.co uk
Blades from the Willows
Huanzhulouzhu
Our Price: Ł7.95
Availability: We expect to be able to find this
title for
you within 4-6 weeks. However, please note that
titles
occasionally go out of print or publishers run
out of
stock.
Paperback (May 1991)
Wellsweep P; ISBN: 0948454059
Amazon.co.uk Sales Rank: 217,897
Also try this web site which has Jin Yong links
From US amazon
Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain: Martial
Arts Fiction in Contemporary Chinese
Literature
by Yung Chin, Olivia Mok (Translator), Jim Young,
Jin Yong
Our Price: $29.95
Availability: This title usually ships
within 4-6
weeks. Please note that titles
occasionally
go out of print or publishers run out
of stock.
We will notify you within 2-3 weeks if
we
have trouble obtaining this title.
See larger photo
Paperback - 382 pages 2nd edition (1996)
Coronet Books; ISBN: 9622017339
Amazon.com Sales Rank: 88,188
Avg. Customer Rating:
Also
The Deer and The Cauldron
by Louis Cha, John Minford (Translator), Yung Chin
Our Price: $35.00
Availability: This title is currently
on back
order. We expect to be able to ship it
to you
within 3-5 weeks.
See larger photo
Hardcover - 596 pages (June 2000)
Oxford Univ Pr; ISBN: 0195903234 ; Dimensions (in
inches): 1.33 x 8.82 x 5.81
Most of the listings of the novels that I found are in Chinese though.
zhuge...@my-deja.com
Overlooked this
(An earlier Louis Cha novel, "Book and Sword: Gratitude and Revenge," is
available
for download in its entirety, in English, from
"http://idt.net/~earnshaw.")
Louis Cha is Jin Yong?
and is the abvove, the same that Ann Hui based her two movies "Romance
of Book and Sword" and "Princess Fragrence" on?
WhoMe?
not one of
his better books. My favorite is the one that the Jet Li movie "Kung Fu Cult
Master"
(http://us.imdb.com/Title?0108624) is roughly based on. It is the last part
of the
Condor trilogy which imho represents the peak of Louis Cha's wuxia writing
career
(lousy movie though).
His short novel, Fox Valiant on the Snowy Mountain, is also very good, and
is available
on Amazon, but I haven't read the English version so I cannot tell you about
the translation.
wm
<zhuge...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:9423se$32j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
PeterDMc
www.barnesandnoble.com for cheaper than amazon, and with faster shipping. John
Minford's translation is very good. It's been anglicized, with the character
names translated and with much of the slang being converted to British slang,
but that may actually be a more effective way to translate a novel like this
anyway in some regards. At any rate, I highly recommend this edition. It's very
very good, and the novel itself is great. Wuxia meets Mark Twain meets
Alexandre Dumas...
Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain, translated by Olivia Mok, is an ok
translation. Not as smooth as Minford's, but nevertheless, worth buying. Louis
Cha (Jin Yong) is such a good writer and storyteller that his talent comes
through in almost any translation, and any time any of his works is translated
into a language you can read, it's worth celebrating.
Incidentally, back on the subject of the Deer & the Cauldron, I'm worried by
the fact that the third volume of translation hasn't come out yet. In the
preface to the first book, it says that it, as well as some of Cha's other
works, will be forthcoming. But when? The first two volumes were published in
June 2000. It seems odd that since it's only a three volume book, they would
publish the first two, and then suspend the conclusion indefinitely! I actually
wrote to the publisher a little while ago and asked them when the third book
was coming out, but they haven't yet responded. I guess fingers crossed until
then....
zhuge...@my-deja.com
"WhoMe?" <wh...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Yes, you're right in both counts. However, I must say that Book and
Sword is
> not one of
> his better books. My favorite is the one that the Jet Li movie "Kung
Fu Cult
> Master"
> (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0108624) is roughly based on. It is the last
part
> of the
> Condor trilogy which imho represents the peak of Louis Cha's wuxia
writing
> career
> (lousy movie though).
>
> His short novel, Fox Valiant on the Snowy Mountain, is also very good,
and
> is available
> on Amazon, but I haven't read the English version so I cannot tell you
about
> the translation.
There was also a negative comment about the translation I believe on the
amazon site.
I may try in Chinatown and see if they have any comic book versions of
the books. Can't read Chinese but I can look at the pictures <grin>.
DaleWBerry
So! This clarifies a great deal for me. I have a book -"The Strange Cases of
Magistrate Pao:Chinese Tales of Crime and Detection"- describing this in its
introduction/explanation of the history of the character and genre. In English
translations,the magistrate/governor character is often referred to as 'Judge'
[ie,"Judge Dee",trans.by Robert Gulick,being the most well-known
here,probably]. In describing the history of 'Judge Pao/Po' stories for the
book's introduction,the translator describes how tales of the character passed
over the years from 'prompt books' used by storytellers to serialized
novels,and how this eventually led to stories centering on the magistrate's
men,refered to here as the "7 Heroes and 5 Gallants"
[a poor translation]. If I am understanding the concept correctly, Po's men
represent a small 'network' of agents from both the upper ranks of the jianghu
['7 Heroes' = xia/brothers/swordsmen/knight-errants] and the lower ['5
Gallants' = 'brave men'/adventurers not directly associated with being 'xia'].
Since jianghu denotes 'rivers & streams',the '5 Gallants' would be 'Water
Rats'[ie,from the 'lower depths' or 'backwaters' of the jianghu]. Am I getting
this right?
This clarifies things for me still furthur about Cat and where he comes from.
I've seen Roc Tien play him in a film,but didn't connect the character to Adam
Cheng in "Cat Vs. Rat". I get it now. Many thanks,deadmead,you are a gentleman
and a scholar :)
>Last note, "Cat vs. Rat" is directed by wu-shu master Liu Chia-Liang (one of
>the most important figure in HK
>wu-xia / kung fu cinema). To older wu-xia fans, the Liu family is probably
>more important than Yuen family (
>Woo-ping being the most important figure of this family now) in the heyday
>of wu-xia films. IMO, the Liu family
>style jsut didn't fit into "modern" action / kung-fu films as the Yuen
>family style. If you've seen any of Liu family
>classic such as "Cat vs. Rat," "Odd Couple," "He Has Nothing But Kung," "The
>Fu36th Chamber of Shaolin"
>and etc., you would know "Tiger On Beat" is a disaster. Since the mid 80s,
>Liu Chia-Liang only shines when directing
>"Martial Arts of Shaolin" or in the duel with Sammo in "Pedicab Driver," and
>Lau Ka-Wing shines brightly (although
>people are talking about Yuen Woo-Ping all the time) being the martial arts
>choreographer of "Once Upon A Time
>In China."
>
Agree with you totally,re;the Liu Clan...altho I did enjoy Chia-liang's work in
TIGER ON THE BEAT [this could just be my sentimentality showing again -it was
good to see the flow and the clarity of the Liu's again in that film,even if it
wasn't an example of their 'classic' work]. For me,while I love Liu's early
work [the Shaw Bros.films,the Wang Yu films he did,HE HAS NOTHING BUT KUNG
FU,etc.],I think he really hit his apex as a director with his post-36th
CHAMBER movies [HEROES OF THE EAST,MARTIAL CLUB,MY YOUNG AUNTIE,18 LEGENDARY
WEAPONS OF KUNG FU,etc....you can include CAT VS. RAT in there,too.] Liu was
the first director/choreographer to stage the fighting to illustrate the
(here's those words again) flow and clarity of martial arts technique
-following the chi with the camera as it moves back and forth between the
combatants from move to to move to impact- while also using this to reveal
character. Brilliant,innovative and a style that has contributed much to the
choreography of others since (the Yuen Clan included). Brother Wing's work [in
OUATIC,or in the films he's directed] also stands out for its clarity,its
excitement and its sense of 'reality' [comparing OUATIC #1 and #2 bare this
out].
Thanks again,deadmead...you da man.
-Dale
deadmead
<zhuge...@my-deja.com> źśźgŠóślĽó news:942hn3$g6s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
well, basically it won't be much difference than you just watch "Jing Yong"
movies. HK wu-xia comic books nowadays are rarely faithful to the original
novels. Not only the heavily twisted plots, but also odd-looking characters
which
you can hardly relate to the original novels. Those "ancient knight errants"
look a bit
like Japanese sci-fi anime characters, and the dress they wear look
futuristic too.
at any rate, if you try some of those recent "Jing Yong" comic books out
there, don't
mistaken that they are "faithfully" based on the original novels.
deadmead
WhoMe?
wm
"deadmead" <kjc...@loyno.edu> wrote in message
news:p4796.3781$4y6.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
<...snip...>
> > > His short novel, Fox Valiant on the Snowy Mountain, is also very good,
> > and
> > > is available
> > > on Amazon, but I haven't read the English version so I cannot tell you
> > about
> > > the translation.
> > Well, since they seem to have the title wrong (Fox Volant) I wonder.
> > There was also a negative comment about the translation I believe on the
> > amazon site.
> >
<... snip ...>
DaleWBerry
>novels. Not only the heavily twisted plots, but also odd-looking characters
>which
>you can hardly relate to the original novels.
>Those "ancient knight errants"
>look a bit
>like Japanese sci-fi anime characters, and the dress they wear look
>futuristic too.
I'd blame publisher Tony Wong for that...Jade Dynasty Pubs. has been trying to
compete with the Japanese manga market and "break-in" to the US/European market
for the last couple of years now, so he's creating books that resemble them.
Which doesn't do his company's version of "Semi-Gods and Semi-Devils" any
good...grumble,grumble...
-DB
>From: "deadmead" kjc...@loyno.edu
>Date: 1/16/01 6:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <p4796.3781$4y6.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>
><zhuge...@my-deja.com> 撰寫於郵件 news:942hn3$g6s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
deadmead
"DaleWBerry" <dalew...@aol.com> ?????
news:20010116182045...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
I was tempted to use "Judge Po" to describe him in my previous message, but
I
thought he really wasn't a "Judge" in the western sense, and so I didn't use
this term.
Translation...
> book's introduction,the translator describes how tales of the character
passed
> over the years from 'prompt books' used by storytellers to serialized
> novels,and how this eventually led to stories centering on the
magistrate's
> men,refered to here as the "7 Heroes and 5 Gallants"
> [a poor translation]. If I am understanding the concept correctly, Po's
men
> represent a small 'network' of agents from both the upper ranks of the
jianghu
> ['7 Heroes' = xia/brothers/swordsmen/knight-errants] and the lower ['5
> Gallants' = 'brave men'/adventurers not directly associated with being
'xia'].
> Since jianghu denotes 'rivers & streams',the '5 Gallants' would be 'Water
> Rats'[ie,from the 'lower depths' or 'backwaters' of the jianghu]. Am I
getting
> this right?
well, it's an interesting interpretation, and the members of seven xia do
look down the five "Gallants." But, from the title "7 xia and 5 e" you would
know
both of these groups are respectable "knight errants." "Rats" are just the
Jianghu
"names / titles" for the five blood brothers, meaning although they all have
their own
unique traits and skills, they are all good at "doing the job in the dark
without
being noticed" like rats. This "look down" thing is between the two groups,
but not
in the eyes of other Jianghu characters and definietly not in the eyes of
those whose
lives are saved by them. Basically, you cannot have "xia" with "e" because
"e" (as I
mentioned "brotherhood" really isn't a sufficient translation) is the most
important
characteristic of a "xia / knight errant." In title of the novel, and later
in the ordinary
people's minds in Chinese society, the five rats has been referred to "5 e",
and it
is in no way a "look down on" them. By the way, the literal meaning of the
"Cat vs.
Rat" would be "The Imperial tricks / or fools the Bright-hair Cat three
times." (totally
7 chinese characters and sound great in Chinese)
<..................snip.............>
I can feel you from my heart. Heck, I even got "Tiger On Beat" on DVD only
becasue
it is directed by master Liu! Just can't resist to point out that it's sad
that he and his Clan
cannot fully display their talent in today's HK cinema scene! Well, as
usual, a part of
my (or our) sentimental nostalghia.
> For me,while I love Liu's early
> work [the Shaw Bros.films,the Wang Yu films he did,HE HAS NOTHING BUT KUNG
> FU,etc.],I think he really hit his apex as a director with his post-36th
> CHAMBER movies [HEROES OF THE EAST,MARTIAL CLUB,MY YOUNG AUNTIE,18
LEGENDARY
> WEAPONS OF KUNG FU,etc....you can include CAT VS. RAT in there,too.] Liu
was
> the first director/choreographer to stage the fighting to illustrate the
> (here's those words again) flow and clarity of martial arts technique
> -following the chi with the camera as it moves back and forth between the
> combatants from move to to move to impact- while also using this to reveal
> character. Brilliant,innovative and a style that has contributed much to
the
> choreography of others since (the Yuen Clan included). Brother Wing's work
[in
> OUATIC,or in the films he's directed] also stands out for its clarity,its
> excitement and its sense of 'reality' [comparing OUATIC #1 and #2 bare
this
> out].
I'd agree with you, in his post -36th chamber films, he kinda got a total
control of his
filmic style (combination of camera movement and genuine martial arts
techniques), and
the time was alos right: realistic kung fu genre grew stronger and stronger
while ancient /
sentimental wu-xia films was in the beginning of its downfall.
As for OUATIC, it has not only the more "realistic" (ie Liu Clan style)
martial arts demonstration,
but also more old wu-xia / kung fu dramatic elements: we got a nobody
country boy tries to get
famous in Jianghu, in the end of the lengendary world of Jianghu (China was
forced to face western
world and thus the "brutal" Jianghu would be forced to be "civilized"), an
old wu-shu master contrives
to live and hold his pride, and typical Jianghu duels. These Jianghu themes
are absent in the sequels.
All these can be interpreted as metaphors of the Chinese political-cultural
condition at that time, but they
are there, the old fashioned wu-xia themes almost absent in HK cinema since
the the mid 80s. Thus,
to me, OUATIC is also a homeage to the old fashion wu-xia / kung fu films.
and that's why I think that
maybe Tsui Hark really had the intention to use Lau Ka-Wing as the martial
arts choreographer of this
film. IMO, from the outlook, DM2 would be more like a homeage to old fashion
kung-fu films (Liu
Chia-Liang even shows up in the film and in the beginning he was actually
the director), but in essence,
I think OUATIC does a much better job!
deadmead
Jeff Coleman
>
> Overlooked this
>
> (An earlier Louis Cha novel, "Book and Sword: Gratitude and Revenge," is
> available
> for download in its entirety, in English, from
> "http://idt.net/~earnshaw.")
Is it? All I got was an empty directory at that address...
>
> Louis Cha is Jin Yong?
>
> and is the abvove, the same that Ann Hui based her two movies "Romance
> of Book and Sword" and "Princess Fragrence" on?
Jeff Coleman
deadmead
maybe OT, but can't resist. it's about the connection between "prompt books"
and Chinese fiction. A long story, and don't know whether the intro of the
book
you read covers this or not, bear with me as usual, ok?
Throughout Chinese history, the two most popular story-telling forms --
word-of-
mouth and stage drama -- have articulated and depicted the myths and stories
of traditional
Chinese fiction. In the acient China, through the medium of print, the
Chinese fictions and stories
only reached a small portion of Chinese population (the "intellectuals" who
could read and
had access to printed document). Yet, through oral traditoin (storytelling)
and stage drama,
the traditional Chinese legends and fictions reaced a wide-range of Chinese
people. During
the Sung, Ming, and the Ching dyansties, the productivity / creativity of
Chinese fiction reached
its peak ("7 Xia and 5 'Gallants'" was a late-Ching dynasty novel) because
of the popularity
of storytelling. During these three dynasties, the oral tradition got so
popular that "story-telling"
became a profession; in such places as restaurants, professional
storytellers articulated and
enacted the myths and stories from traditional Chinese fiction. "Hua-pen"
(literally Word and
Script) was the "prompt book" used by those storytellers. As the writers
wrote new fictions
when the storytellers "performed" both new and old stories. Since the
writers were conscious
of the fact that their works would function as "prompt books," many of them
would write their
stories like a "prompt book." That is, since the storytellers would add a
lot of emotional
and dramatic factors to their works, they don't need to write their works in
too much detail. This
is one of the reason why you don't find in-depth psychological or dramatic
portrays in traditional
Chinese fictions. Not even the fight scenes in such classic as "The Romance
of Three Kingdoms" (only
two brief paragraphs describing how Kuwan Kung passed the five "gates" and
killed 6 famous
fighters). They knew the storytellers would make those sequences fantastic.
Then somehow this
interrelationship made Chinese writers create the Chinese style of
literature which is very different
from Western (or the so-called Master Narrative in the West) narrative
style. Even THE Chinese
literary classic "Dreams of Red Chamber" blends the story-telling "prompt
book" tradition in the
writing. The most noticable feature would be in the end of every chapter,
the writer would compose
a brief poet to sum up what had happened in the chapter, and announce: if
you want to know what
happen to so and so, don't miss the next chapter (round). That's precisely
what a storyteller would
say in the end of a session! "7 xia and five 'Gallants'" is right in this
grand traditions. The storytellers
would perform chapters or stories from this book, and thus the ordinary
people can enjoy the stories,
and all those characters has become a part of Chinese culture. Furthermore,
these fictions were also
the favorite for regional stage dramas. They would transform the stories in
a fiction into stage dramas.
Later, we got movies and TV dramas, and those stories are there again... All
told, such characters
as "The Imperial Cat" and "Judge" Po or such stories as "The Madame White
Snake" are fused with
Chinese culture (although I don't know how much of those things are left /
or even ever being there in
the minds of the XYZ generation Chinese who would rather be Japanese or
Americans).
Last thing, it's very interesting that you use (or the book you read) "a
small network of agents" to describe
"7 xia and 5 'Gallants'." Because "agents" gave me kinda negative feeling or
a postive feeling in a James Bond
way. They are not, they're just typical knight errants in Chinese "xia-e"
novels who helps "Judge Po" because
they believe that's a rightouse thing to do and "Judge Po" is a rightouse /
selfless man.
deadmead
deadmead
"PeterDMc" <pete...@aol.comNOSPAM> 撰寫於郵件
news:20010116164658...@ng-fk1.aol.com...
> The Deer & The Cauldron (books 1 & 2) are also available from
> www.barnesandnoble.com for cheaper than amazon, and with faster shipping.
John
> Minford's translation is very good. It's been anglicized, with the
character
> names translated and with much of the slang being converted to British
slang,
> but that may actually be a more effective way to translate a novel like
this
> anyway in some regards. At any rate, I highly recommend this edition. It's
very
> very good, and the novel itself is great. Wuxia meets Mark Twain meets
> Alexandre Dumas...
It is a better way to translate but the original flavor will be lost. But,
every translation
is a compromise, and that's something must be sacrifice in the translation
process.
As for "Wuxia meets Mark Twain meets Alexandre Dumas...," it sounds like a
dissertation topic to me.
>
>
> Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain, translated by Olivia Mok, is an ok
> translation. Not as smooth as Minford's, but nevertheless, worth buying.
Louis
> Cha (Jin Yong) is such a good writer and storyteller that his talent comes
> through in almost any translation, and any time any of his works is
translated
> into a language you can read, it's worth celebrating.
IMO, til now only "Fox Volant" and "Deer" being translated into English is
because
these two novels aren't conventional Wu-xia novels. Focus more on dramatic
tension
("Fox Volant," a short piece), and on illustrating the sophisticated human
interactions
in Chinese society ("Deer" close to what traditional Chinese fictions did).
The depictions of
fantastic wu-xia world and "outrageous" wu-kung are less (to a great extend)
than the
conventional wu-xia novels, including Jing Yong's own other works.
Technically,
it would be more difficult to translate those conventional wu-xia novels
because
it's very difficult to "faithfully" translate the detail of those
"outrageous" wu-kung
into English.
>
> Incidentally, back on the subject of the Deer & the Cauldron, I'm worried
by
> the fact that the third volume of translation hasn't come out yet. In the
> preface to the first book, it says that it, as well as some of Cha's other
> works, will be forthcoming. But when? The first two volumes were published
in
> June 2000. It seems odd that since it's only a three volume book, they
would
> publish the first two, and then suspend the conclusion indefinitely! I
actually
> wrote to the publisher a little while ago and asked them when the third
book
> was coming out, but they haven't yet responded. I guess fingers crossed
until
> then....
I would never need to (and want to) read a English Jing Yong, but just a
note to you
guys. The Chinese (original) edition of the "Deer" is a five-book series.
Each book
has ten chapters. Now the English edition only contains three volumes, I'm
wondering
whether they condense the original in anyway. Anyway, just keep on track how
many
chapters you read in the English edition. There should be a prologue and 50
chapters,
if not, the English edition might alter the content or condense the content
of the original.
deadmead
Jeff Coleman
>
> I would never need to (and want to) read a English Jing Yong, but just a
> note to you
> guys. The Chinese (original) edition of the "Deer" is a five-book series.
> Each book
> has ten chapters. Now the English edition only contains three volumes, I'm
> wondering
> whether they condense the original in anyway. Anyway, just keep on track
how
> many
> chapters you read in the English edition. There should be a prologue and
50
> chapters,
> if not, the English edition might alter the content or condense the
content
> of the original.
>
> deadmead
The translator's preface to the Second Book says that its ten chapters
represent twenty chapters from the original, and that there's been quite a
bit of condensation. A shame, but it's better than nothing!
I'm a bit sad it took me this long to develop an interest in Chinese fiction
after watching the movies for years--so many little touches in the films
make so much more sense now. I don't know what I would have made of the
scene in THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR where the kid draws a picture of his
teacher, and the folds over the page to show he's turned the teacher into a
turtle, if I hadn't read in THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON that "turtle" was such
a common insult.
Plus, TDATC is such an evocative picture of that time period, that I
feel like just about everything I've ever seen in a martial arts movie is in
there--Shaolin and Wudang martial arts, pressure point opening and closing,
restaurants and tea-houses destroyed by fistfights, the Ming loyalists
versus the Qing imperialists, the Triad societies, wicked imperial Eunuchs,
lime in the eyes, there's even been a little bit of Opera. I'm waiting for
a girl to dress up in men's clothes now, that's such a popular theme :).
Thanks a bunch for your description of the prompt book. I started on an
abridged translation of the Journey to the West ("Monkey: Folk Novel of
China") before moving on to a four-volume version that translates the story
in its entirety. I much prefer the greater detail and footnotes in the
longer version, but I found the way of translating the chapter-ends so
charming in the shorter one. "...And if you do not know how Monkey became
enlighted, you must listen to what is told in the next chapter."
Once I finish those I'm starting on Three Kingdoms...
Mark Morrison
Here is the correct URL for Graham Earnshaw's translation of THE BOOK AND
THE SWORD:
http://earnshaw.com/b&s/b&s.cfm
This is taken from Spike's article on wuxia which he was kind enough to
write for my site:
http://www.heroic-cinema.com/articles/wuxia.htm
Deadmead has pointed out that Spike may have been stretching the genre by
including THREE KINGDOMS, JOURNEY TO THE WEST and OUTLAWS OF THE MARSH. That
may be true; it was Spike's intent to cover literary sources for Hong Kong
films, with an emphasis on works which are available in English translation.
The result is a useful guide to new readers; if anyone has any additional
info of translated material, please let us know.
Cheers,
Mark
Heroic Cinema (http://www.heroic-cinema.com)
The Guide to Hong Kong Movies in Australia
zhuge...@my-deja.com
Hmm, you are right. However try this
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/2331/translation.html
It gives links (that work) to
The Book and The Sword
SWORD OF THE YUEH MAIDEN
The server was down for the comic version of Condor Heroes.
It also contains links to Japanese, Indonesian. There is also
apparently a web ring for the author.
zhuge...@my-deja.com
BTW, I noticed the following in my wanderings
The webmaster is in a dilemma to write the online Jin Yong novel page.
The original page (Big5,
GB) has a superb navigation control. However, the number of site
that hosts Jin Yong novels online has
proliferated at a rate that the webmaster can no longer keep up
with.
Secondly, Mr Louis Cha has filed a legal notice concerning
the illegal hosting of Jin Yong's novels,
either in part or in full, on the Internet. All of the material
concerned should be removed from the Internet
on or before 31st March 1998, or incurs legal responsibility of
copyright infringement.
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/2331/novels.html
Which raises an interesting legal/moral question <grin>
deadmead
"Mark Morrison" <ma...@heroic-cinema.com> 撰寫於郵件
news:KYd96.25394$Xx3.1...@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> > Is it? All I got was an empty directory at that address...
>
> Here is the correct URL for Graham Earnshaw's translation of THE BOOK AND
> THE SWORD:
> http://earnshaw.com/b&s/b&s.cfm
>
> This is taken from Spike's article on wuxia which he was kind enough to
> write for my site:
> http://www.heroic-cinema.com/articles/wuxia.htm
>
> Deadmead has pointed out that Spike may have been stretching the genre by
> including THREE KINGDOMS, JOURNEY TO THE WEST and OUTLAWS OF THE MARSH.
That
> may be true; it was Spike's intent to cover literary sources for Hong Kong
> films, with an emphasis on works which are available in English
translation.
> The result is a useful guide to new readers; if anyone has any additional
> info of translated material, please let us know.
If you don't particularly focus on "wu-xia" materials, I highly recomend
"Traditional Chinese Stories: Themes and variations" (edited by Y.M. Ma
and Joseph S. M. Lau, New York: Columbia University Press). This a
collection of some of the most famous / popular traditional short fictions,
including the original story that "A Chinese Ghost Story" based on the
legendary
story about "Madame White Snake." Ma and Lau also give some very insightful
introductions of basic themes in Chinese fictions in this book. As I pointed
out
roughly a month ago, this book, IMO, is the best English book that
introduces
the traditional Chinese short fictions.
I think you can get this from Amazon.com, but the price would be ugly, but
you
should be able to locate this book in the library of any established
university in
the US (unless Chinese literature isn't a concern for that university at
all).
deadmead
deadmead
"Jeff Coleman" <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> 撰寫於郵件
news:fw996.6735$LZ1.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
mmm..., as you mention this " a girl to dress up in men's clothes" theme, I
recall that Jing Yong isn't really interested in this theme. Of course you
can
find this kind of sequences in his works, but he didn't really dramatize a
lot
(or say dramatize it in a conventional way). If the translator didn't
condense
the content of "Deer" too much, I gurantee that you will see it.
>
> Thanks a bunch for your description of the prompt book. I started on an
> abridged translation of the Journey to the West ("Monkey: Folk Novel of
> China") before moving on to a four-volume version that translates the
story
> in its entirety. I much prefer the greater detail and footnotes in the
> longer version, but I found the way of translating the chapter-ends so
> charming in the shorter one. "...And if you do not know how Monkey became
> enlighted, you must listen to what is told in the next chapter."
this is a pretty good translation. The writers of Chinese fiction did use
"listen to
what is told..." in the chapter ends because this line conventionally would
be
delivered by the storytellers.
Finishing up this book, you might want to watch (or watch agian) "A Chinese
Odyssey I & II." With the knowledge of "Journey to the West," you may find
many extra subtexts you wouldn't pick up had you never read the book.
>
> Once I finish those I'm starting on Three Kingdoms...
This one definitely will help you understand wu-xia novels, HK
cinema (especially the mob films and some historical movies) and
Chinese culture more.
deadmead
PTN
> if anyone has any additional info of translated material, please let us
know.
and deadmead wrote:
> including the original story that "A Chinese Ghost Story" based on
for a full translation of that story as well as seven other stories from Pu
Songling's Strange Stories from a Chinese Studio, each of which inspired a
film or two, head over to:
http://illuminatedlantern.com/liaozhai/liaozhai.html
and click on the titles of the stories.
-- Peter
The Illuminated Lantern
http://www.illuminatedlantern.com
December - January 2001: Christianity in China
DaleWBerry
>Message-id: <9V896.3996$4y6.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
(snip,snip...)
>maybe OT, but can't resist. it's about the connection between "prompt books"
>and Chinese fiction. A long story, and don't know whether the intro of the
>book
>you read covers this or not, bear with me as usual, ok?
>
This is never an issue :)
Informative and enlightening!
I guess I should clarify why I'm looking into all this. You see,I'm currently
working on producing a wuxia comic book/graphic novel series,for the American
audience,with a great deal of supernatural flavor [the hero is xia,but
primarily caught up in ghost-hunting]. It happens to take place in the Sung
dynasty(near the end of the Southern era -a society in chaos and schism
generating more ghosts wandering about,plus it gives the series a chance to
dally with things like the emerging Mongol hordes,empires-at-war and the 108
Bandits, for instance,as backgrounds for the stories),and the first story
happens to feature a group of travelling actors/performers [so your post
couldn't be more timely!].
Writing/drawing/designing the book has been tough,because there is so much
cultural context one has to communicate to the reader,as well as deliver a
story that is exciting to both the reader just getting exposed to wuxia,and the
reader who has been a long-time fan. I think there's a lot of soc.commentary
-perhaps even a few parrallels and commonalities- to be found in the time
period and the genre for the modern US reader,specifically. Also,wuxia pian
has a lot of elements readers here like already: romance,intrigue,epic
scope,'gothic' atmosphere,fascinating and colorful
characters,mood,action,suspense,history,magic,monsters,"super
powers",you-name-it.
Anyway,I'm trying to find the best way to communicate the concept of the
jianghu,and how society thinks of it,within the stories. Western readers don't
automatically understand the notion of xia,and find it hard to grasp the idea
of why or how the palladin-like figure of a wandering swordsman or a martial
clan operates...How would the average merchant or peasant react if one of the
xia appeared? How would someone from the court think of them? How do they see
themselves? This is the kind of thing I have to consider when creating
characters,and being another gweilo-come-lately,I'm never sure if I've "got
it". I owe you some thanks here,because your input in this ng. has helped me a
lot.
>Last thing, it's very interesting that you use (or the book you read) "a
>small network of agents" to describe
>"7 xia and 5 'Gallants'." Because "agents" gave me kinda negative feeling or
>a postive feeling in a James Bond
>way. They are not, they're just typical knight errants in Chinese "xia-e"
>novels who helps "Judge Po" because
>they believe that's a rightouse thing to do and "Judge Po" is a rightouse /
>selfless man.
Please,no negative feelings intended! I meant 'network' in the more positive,
James Bond/master of intrigue/'master of The Game' kind of way. Chalk it up to
my
lurid 'writer's imagination' [always looking for the drama! ;)] trying to read
more into it than necessary.
And you're right,'judge' is perhaps too simplistic a discription -'magistrate'
might be more acurrate,but still...its part of the problem of having to deal
with any 'Western' approach to wuxia almost *having* to oversimplify 'Eastern'
concepts :(
-Dale[...but I'm working on it]Berry
:)
>
>
>deadmead
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
African Monk
>As I brought up the connection between Jing Yong's wu-xia novels and HK
>films several times since CTHD became a hot topic in this NG, someone asked
>me via e-mail for more detail. I reckon some people in this NG might also be
>interested in this issue, and so I just talk a little bit about the
>relationship between the two most important wu-xia writers (Jing Yong and
>Goo Lung) and HK cinema. (note, I do know this issue has been brought up
>before in this NG; yet, now is maybe a time to talk about it again).
>.......
snip
>deadmead
>
>
Good stuff.
Is there an alt.asian-movies FAQ? This belongs in the FAQ.
African Monk
------------
"Women are nothing but tea kettles.",
CYF in "An Autumn's Tale".
PeterDMc
>like a
>> dissertation topic to me.
It could be, but I just meant that Wei Xiaobao had certain things in common
with Huckleberry Finn. They're both irrascible but lovable little rogues!
As for Alexandre Dumas, and Louis Cha (Jin Yong) mentions this himself in the
new introduction to the English translation, Alexandre Dumas (along with Scott,
Stevenson, Merimee, and other "swashbuckling" authors) are the closest things
in Western literature to Chinese wuxia. I in particular picked Dumas, because I
think of all the authors mentioned by Cha, he is probably the one closest to
that style
Eric Chung-Hui Chang
While Wei Xiao Bao is the protagonist of the novel, some argued that
the real central figure is the emperor Kang Hsi. The novel touched
upon all the events through which Kang Hsi established his rule in
China, from dealing with powerful insubordinate Manchu generals,
fighting off the Russian Tsar armies, defeating the Chinese Three
Feudatories, conquering Taiwan, etc.. The relationship between
Wei and Kang Hsi is very interesting. As emperor, Kang Hsi is
bound by various concerns and responsibilites. Wei is like his
alter ego through which he can personally go on various life
adventures and challenges, which as emperor, he could not have
gone otherwise. Kang Hsi was one of the greatest emperors in
China's history. Western scholars were especially fascinated
with Kang Hsi because not only is he a great emperor, as a Manchu, he is
also an outsider to Han China, and yet was able to accomplish great
things. Kang Hsi, in his later years, finally got to have some
fun himself by personally leading an expedition against a Mongol
chieftain causing trouble on China's borders.
Eric
In article <fw996.6735$LZ1.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Jeff Coleman <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> wrote:
>
>The translator's preface to the Second Book says that its ten chapters
>represent twenty chapters from the original, and that there's been quite a
>bit of condensation. A shame, but it's better than nothing!
>
>I'm a bit sad it took me this long to develop an interest in Chinese fiction
>after watching the movies for years--so many little touches in the films
>make so much more sense now. I don't know what I would have made of the
>scene in THE BRIDE WITH WHITE HAIR where the kid draws a picture of his
>teacher, and the folds over the page to show he's turned the teacher into a
>turtle, if I hadn't read in THE DEER AND THE CAULDRON that "turtle" was such
>a common insult.
> Plus, TDATC is such an evocative picture of that time period, that I
>feel like just about everything I've ever seen in a martial arts movie is in
>there--Shaolin and Wudang martial arts, pressure point opening and closing,
>restaurants and tea-houses destroyed by fistfights, the Ming loyalists
>versus the Qing imperialists, the Triad societies, wicked imperial Eunuchs,
>lime in the eyes, there's even been a little bit of Opera. I'm waiting for
>a girl to dress up in men's clothes now, that's such a popular theme :).
>
>Once I finish those I'm starting on Three Kingdoms...
>
>Jeff Coleman
>charm is real, progress is power!
>www.handofgod.com
>
>
>
>
>
--
-----
Words exist because of meaning; once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget
the words. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can have a word
with him?
Eric Chung-Hui Chang
Eric Chung-Hui Chang <ecc...@allmalt.cs.uwm.edu> wrote:
>Kang Hsi, in his later years, finally got to have some
>fun himself by personally leading an expedition against a Mongol
>chieftain causing trouble on China's borders.
Forgot to mention that in the novel, at that point in time,
Wei was banished to an island off China's coast so he
missed out on all the fun. That was Kang Hsi's punishment
and joke on Wei. The island's name is an obvious reference
to today's Diaoyutai island which is disputed between China
and Japan. The author is jokingly saying that, "Hey! This
island belongs to China because a long long time ago, our
Wei Xiao Bao was already making babies with his seven
wives on the island."
Eric
deadmead
"DaleWBerry" <dalew...@aol.com> 撰寫於郵件
news:20010117222927...@ng-ci1.aol.com...
> >From: "deadmead" kjc...@loyno.edu
> >Message-id: <9V896.3996$4y6.2...@bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
<.....................snip.................>
> I guess I should clarify why I'm looking into all this. You see,I'm
currently
> working on producing a wuxia comic book/graphic novel series,for the
American
> audience,with a great deal of supernatural flavor [the hero is xia,but
> primarily caught up in ghost-hunting]. It happens to take place in the
Sung
> dynasty(near the end of the Southern era -a society in chaos and schism
> generating more ghosts wandering about,plus it gives the series a chance
to
> dally with things like the emerging Mongol hordes,empires-at-war and the
108
> Bandits, for instance,as backgrounds for the stories),and the first story
> happens to feature a group of travelling actors/performers [so your post
> couldn't be more timely!].
Sounds like an exciting, yet extremely trying project if you want to
do it "right."
>
> Writing/drawing/designing the book has been tough,because there is so much
> cultural context one has to communicate to the reader,as well as deliver a
> story that is exciting to both the reader just getting exposed to
wuxia,and the
> reader who has been a long-time fan. I think there's a lot of
soc.commentary
> -perhaps even a few parrallels and commonalities- to be found in the time
> period and the genre for the modern US reader,specifically. Also,wuxia
pian
> has a lot of elements readers here like already: romance,intrigue,epic
> scope,'gothic' atmosphere,fascinating and colorful
> characters,mood,action,suspense,history,magic,monsters,"super
> powers",you-name-it.
these basically are sort of "universal themes" which can appeal to
most young readers (that is, not really a "culture" thing.).
>
> Anyway,I'm trying to find the best way to communicate the concept of the
> jianghu,and how society thinks of it,within the stories. Western readers
don't
> automatically understand the notion of xia,and find it hard to grasp the
idea
> of why or how the palladin-like figure of a wandering swordsman or a
martial
> clan operates...How would the average merchant or peasant react if one of
the
> xia appeared? How would someone from the court think of them? How do they
see
> themselves? This is the kind of thing I have to consider when creating
> characters,and being another gweilo-come-lately,I'm never sure if I've
"got
> it". I owe you some thanks here,because your input in this ng. has helped
me a
> lot.
IMO, this is the most difficult part in your project: how to represent such
concepts
as Xia and Jianghu faithfully to an American audience yet preserve the
intergrity
of the concepts. My area of study is mainly in reading cross-cultural texts
from
both Western and Eastern perspectives. To some degree we would face the same
problem: how to translate / transform something absoultely deson't have
"correspondent."
For example, how do you present the idea of "xia" without "interpreting this
concept
from a western / American perspective"? In other words, in most cases, when
we
try to make such concept as "xia" known to Americans, we would probably try
to
"explain" or "rationalize" the concept through "Western perspective." In the
end,
what we really translate would probably turn out to be "Americans'
understanding
of Xia" rather than the original concept of "xia."
I think I can't really help you (if you need any of course) in terms of how
to
transform Chinese wu-xia concpets into something that can be understood by
American readers
because I really have different "eyeballs" and mentality than that of your
target audience.
>
>
> >Last thing, it's very interesting that you use (or the book you read) "a
> >small network of agents" to describe
> >"7 xia and 5 'Gallants'." Because "agents" gave me kinda negative feeling
or
> >a postive feeling in a James Bond
> >way. They are not, they're just typical knight errants in Chinese "xia-e"
> >novels who helps "Judge Po" because
> >they believe that's a rightouse thing to do and "Judge Po" is a rightouse
/
> >selfless man.
>
> Please,no negative feelings intended! I meant 'network' in the more
positive,
> James Bond/master of intrigue/'master of The Game' kind of way. Chalk it
up to
> my
> lurid 'writer's imagination' [always looking for the drama! ;)] trying to
read
> more into it than necessary.
as I know your project now, I can completely understand why you used "a
small network of
agents" to describe "7 xia and 5 'Gallants'"! It sould make your target
audience excited.
>
> And you're right,'judge' is perhaps too simplistic a
discription -'magistrate'
> might be more acurrate,but still...its part of the problem of having to
deal
> with any 'Western' approach to wuxia almost *having* to oversimplify
'Eastern'
> concepts :(
yes, and the biggest problem in cross-culture studies / communications.
deadmead
DaleWBerry
too late...
>Message-id: <yuL96.1528$1m.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>Also,wuxia
>pian
>> has a lot of elements readers here like already: romance,intrigue,epic
>> scope,'gothic' atmosphere,fascinating and colorful
>characters,mood,action,suspense,history,magic,monsters,"super
>> powers",you-name-it.
>
>these basically are sort of "universal themes" which can appeal to
>most young readers (that is, not really a "culture" thing.).
>
>
Which is exactly what I've been telling my friends here for years,and probably
why I'm doing this book...its universal! ;)
>IMO, this is the most difficult part in your project: how to represent such
>concepts
>as Xia and Jianghu faithfully to an American audience yet preserve the
>intergrity
>of the concepts.
>My area of study is mainly in reading cross-cultural texts
>from
>both Western and Eastern perspectives. To some degree we would face the same
>problem: how to translate / transform something absoultely deson't have
>"correspondent."
>For example, how do you present the idea of "xia" without "interpreting this
>concept
>from a western / American perspective"? In other words, in most cases, when
>we
>try to make such concept as "xia" known to Americans, we would probably try
>to
>"explain" or "rationalize" the concept through "Western perspective."
Perhaps this isn't as necessary as all that...but then again -too true!- its
also unavoidable to a degree. It is becoming less so,I think.
Example: Western readers are already familiar with the components of our
'fantasy' and 'sword&sorcery' genres. A large part of this (the 'cultural
background' of it,if you will -the 'magic',the social structure,the milieu,the
names,the character motivations,etc.) is based on variations of medeval
European models. It gives Western readers a vague point-of-reference to work
their imaginations from.
I've found the same thing applies to communicating wuxia to people here: give
'em enough (reasonably)accurate historical detail/background/social
structure/mise-en-scene, and the reader will relate to it. Some things really
don't change cross-culturally...in faraway times and lands,rulers are rulers
and farmers are farmers. The Human Interest element of a story resonates for
everybody,and any differences tend to be noted and accepted quite readily.
[Heh,okay...some folks don't get 'flying' right away,but once you explain the
concept behind it they come around...at the very least accepting it as part of
the 'rules' of the genre's 'fantasy'...].
> In the
>end,
>what we really translate would probably turn out to be "Americans'
>understanding
>of Xia" rather than the original concept of "xia."
I try to focus on the similarities: the xia would form and exist to reach
beyond the social norm, to step outside of the rules of society when necessary
to selflessly insure justice,order and fair-play for the Common Good. Such
benevolence is inherent in the concept of a Robin Hood,or a chivalrous
knight,so western readers are already halfway there. Its a small matter for
them to grasp how over time such altruism can become 'codified' into a
society,how such idealistic heroism can become almost an institution.
Such words are 'cold',I know. They lack emotional sweep, the evocative power
'xia' conjures up when heard with the 'Chinese ear'. So what's left to fill
the gap,to give Western readers the same emotional charge,is found in
character: show how differing classes of people acted,how the elite speak with
sophistication,how the commoner speaks plainly,how dreamers and villains and
idealists and emperors and innkeepers and heroes and heroines talk pretty much
about the same things their counterparts do the world over. The goals of each
are pretty universal,too,I think. All thats left is to add a fantastic enough
menace,a little existential dilemma or two,and -voila!- instant reader
identification. Its really just a matter of historical detail that makes the
difference...
But don't think I'm trying to..I don't know..."reduce" wuxia-pian to a watered
down concept. More like trying to bring Western style notions of 'fantasy' up
to speed ;)
>I think I can't really help you (if you need any of course) in terms of how
>to
>transform Chinese wu-xia concpets into something that can be understood by
>American readers
>because
>I really have different "eyeballs" and mentality than that of your
>target audience.
Actually,the target audience is 18 to 35-plus,so I won't have to oversimplify
too much... :)
I'm just being overly-technical here in terms of some of the elements in the
genre. What can't be faked,or changed, is the Chinese ( -and Asian)
historical/social context. Thats why the accent on the history first,and the
fantastic elements second...I'm trying to break down the unfamiliarity. Every
time somebody tries to pass an Eastern 'riff' over in a Western story it
shows,for the most part poorly. I'm trying for a little more CTHD,and a little
less MATRIX,myself.
[Well,okay...what I'll probably end up with will be closer to Adam Cheng and
Brigitte Lin than CYF and Michelle Yeoh,"but still"... :)]
-Dale
Jeff Coleman
"DaleWBerry" <dalew...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010122101922...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
> Hey,deadmead! Sorry it took so long to get back to you about this,if its
not
> too late...
>
> 'fantasy' and 'sword&sorcery' genres. A large part of this (the 'cultural
> background' of it,if you will -the 'magic',the social structure,the
milieu,the
> names,the character motivations,etc.) is based on variations of medeval
> European models. It gives Western readers a vague point-of-reference to
work
> their imaginations from.
>
Here's another example:
You're sitting in the tavern on the edge of town having a drink. It's
dusty and hot outside and you've got a long way to travel until you reach
your destination. A swarthy rogue staggers over to you, obviously drunk,
and greets you. "So you're the legendary fighter I've heard so much
about--I can see by your appearance that your nickname suits you well. I'm
here to challenge you, let's see whose skill is greater." Although you
weren't looking for trouble, you size up the rogue and decide to take him
on. You step out into the street and take a stance, ready for combat.
...is this a scene from a wu-xia story or from a Western? Is your nickname
"Avenging 70-catty Halberd Wang" or "The Two-Gun Kid"? Are you drinking
bowls of wine or mugs of beer, and when you fight, are you dueling with
pistols or with weapons and martial arts?
In Western stories you can find many parallels to Eastern wu-xia, although
of course the two are not identical. A quasi-feudal system, often far from
the reaches of the goverment; fighters with incredible prowess at weapons
and hand-to-hand combat; loyalty to a master and to sworn brothers.
Abstracted even further, superhero stories often have similar elements, as
do police and gangster stories. The idea of a "fraternity of chivalrous
men" can be found in all of those genres, with very similar implications.
The specifics are different, but unless people actively think of wu-xia as
completely foreign to their experience, I believe they can understand it by
parallel to familiar stories.
zhuge...@my-deja.com
Interesting. You may also be able to compare to Chanson de Geste and
medieval romance and renditions. Some of the elements you describe
exist in works such as Arthur Conan Doyles "The White Company" and in
ballads such as "Gamble Gold"
There chanced to be a Pedlar bold,
A Pedlar bold there chanced to be;
He put his pack all on his back,
And so merrily trudged over the lea.
By chance he met two troublesome men,
Two troublesome men they chanced to be,
The one of them was bold Robin Hood,
And the other was little John so free.
O Pedlar, Pedlar, what is in thy pack?
Come speedily and tell to me.
I've several suits of the gay green silks,
And silken bowstrings by two or three.
If you have several suits of the gay green silk,
And silken bowstrings two or three
Then, by my body, cries little John,
One half of your pack shall belong to me.
O nay, O nay, said the pedlar bold,
O nay, O nay, that can never be
For there's never a man from fair Nottingham,
Can take one half my pack from me.
Then the Pedlar he pulled off his pack,
And put it a little below his knee,
Saying, If you do move me one perch from this,
My pack and all shall gang with thee.
Then little John he drew his sword,
The Pedlar by his pack did stand,
They fought until they both did sweat,
Till he cried, Pedlar, pray hold your hand.
Then Robin Hood he was standing by,
And he did laugh most heartily,
Saying, I could find a man of smaller scale,
Could thrash the Pedlar and also thee.
Go you try, master, says little John,
Go you try, master, most speedily,
For by my body, says little John,
I am sure this night you will know me.
Then Robin Hood he drew his sword,
And the pedlar by his pack did stand;
They fought till the blood in streams did flow,
Till he cried, Pedlar, pray hold your hand.
O Pedlar, Pedlar, what is thy name?
Come speedily and tell to me.
Come, my name I ne'er will tell,
Till both your names you have told to me.
The one of us is bold Robin Hood,
And the other is little John so free.
Now, says the Pedlar, it lays to my good will,
Whether my name I choose to tell to thee.
I am Gamble Gold of the gay green woods,
And I travelled far beyond the sea,
For killing a man in my father's land,
And from my country was forced to flee.
If you are Gamble Gold of the gay green woods,
And travelled far beyond the sea,
You are my mother's own sister's son,
What nearer cousins can we be?
They sheathed their swords, with friendly words,
So merrily they did agree,
They went to a tavern and there they dined,
And cracked bottles most merrily.
Which I can readily see as a scene from a Chinese film with bold bravoes
of the Greenwood.
Jeff Coleman
<zhuge...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:94hv6d$h5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <IJYa6.4638$7b2.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> Interesting. You may also be able to compare to Chanson de Geste and
> medieval romance and renditions. Some of the elements you describe
> exist in works such as Arthur Conan Doyles "The White Company" and in
> ballads such as "Gamble Gold"
>
<excellent poem snipped>
> Which I can readily see as a scene from a Chinese film with bold bravoes
> of the Greenwood.
Definitely--especially where the Pedlar says "if you move me from this
perch". He could then defend himself from that one position, showing his
skill by moving as little as possible.
Jeff
zhuge...@my-deja.com
egroup on Daoist texts and one of the problems of modern scholarship is
to be careful of projecting modern western points of view onto Chinese
culture. Things such as concepts of self, individualism, law, etc. are
not necessarily easily transferable to other cultures at different
periods of time. Even modern Chinese scholars who have been Western
educated sometimes have this problem. So, be very aware of the
differences (if you want to start a ruckus in scholarly circles, just
describe some Chinese structures at certain times as "feudal" and see
what happens, <grin>).
And. bear in mind that the Western mindset before the modern era was
different, so when you are evaluating texts that date before the Western
Englightenment be careful in assuming that what they meant is the same
as what one would mean today.
deadmead
"DaleWBerry" <dalew...@aol.com> ?????
news:20010122101922...@ng-fw1.aol.com...
This is what I was talking about: reference and perspective. It's inevitably
that in the process of translation / transformation, you need to rely on the
reference to "simlilar" western conditions / concepts to introduce wu-xia
genre to western readers. The basic theme / situation of "sword & sorcery"
genres are "similar" but the particular "flavors" are different, beginning
with
the fundemental difference in "langauge." The "name / title" of a Jianghu
character would lose the original flavor no matter how hard you try
to translate it. Another thing is that, if you contrive to do a "faithful"
transformation,
it would demand your readers a lot effort to understand "the social
structure,
the milieu" of "Jianghu" and Chinese historical / socio-cultural-political
conditions.
To create exciting, communicatable wu-xia comic books for western readers is
a different matter because as long as the content of comic books makes sense
to the readers it would be fine, regardless how much the readers know about
Chinese culture.
>
> I've found the same thing applies to communicating wuxia to people here:
give
> 'em enough (reasonably)accurate historical detail/background/social
> structure/mise-en-scene, and the reader will relate to it.
same question, how deep can you go in portraying Chinese historical /
socio-cultural
conditions, and how much effort you demand your readers in understanding a
foregin culture.
> Some things really
> don't change cross-culturally...in faraway times and lands,rulers are
rulers
> and farmers are farmers. The Human Interest element of a story resonates
for
> everybody,and any differences tend to be noted and accepted quite readily.
> [Heh,okay...some folks don't get 'flying' right away,but once you explain
the
> concept behind it they come around...at the very least accepting it as
part of
> the 'rules' of the genre's 'fantasy'...].
This is very true; however I think you've been optimistic about CTHD /
flying
situation. Also, in your comic series, do you need to "explain" / "justify"
wu-xia
fantasy (such as "light kung") before you begin your story?
<....................snip.....................................>
> >I think I can't really help you (if you need any of course) in terms of
how
> >to
> >transform Chinese wu-xia concpets into something that can be understood
by
> >American readers
> >because
> >I really have different "eyeballs" and mentality than that of your
> >target audience.
>
> Actually,the target audience is 18 to 35-plus,so I won't have to
oversimplify
> too much... :)
well, I was not talking about "age," I was talking about cultural difference
between
me and your target audience. Your target audience needs to rely on
"connection"
and "association" of various types of cross-cultural reference, but I don't.
This is
why I said I got different eye balls and mentality than that of your target
audience.
>
> I'm just being overly-technical here in terms of some of the elements in
the
> genre. What can't be faked,or changed, is the Chinese ( -and Asian)
> historical/social context. Thats why the accent on the history first,and
the
> fantastic elements second...I'm trying to break down the unfamiliarity.
Every
> time somebody tries to pass an Eastern 'riff' over in a Western story it
> shows,for the most part poorly. I'm trying for a little more CTHD,and a
little
> less MATRIX,myself.
>
> [Well,okay...what I'll probably end up with will be closer to Adam Cheng
and
> Brigitte Lin than CYF and Michelle Yeoh,"but still"... :)]
>
>
> -Dale
hope it will work out well (based on your objective). I really don't have
any doubt
that a translation of wu-xia genre is possible; as every translation is
inevitably a
compromise, I only want to say that, to me, the compromise isn't beautiful
(of course
only in the perfect world can translation becomes correspondence). I don't
doubt there's
similiarity between any given cultural concept, but the rythm and flavor of
all those
wu-xia terms would be lost in the process of translation: wu-xia / wu-lin /
Jianghu /
any given specific wu-kung / Jianghu characters' names and titles and so
on...
They are "poetic" in Chinese langauge, and trusting a good translator like
you, I
believe they would also be "poetic" in the translation, but they will
inevitably
be "poetic" differently because the difference between Chinese and English.
deadmead
deadmead
"Jeff Coleman" <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> 撰寫於郵件
news:IJYa6.4638$7b2.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
As I mentioned in another post, I have no doubt about cross-cultural
similiarites,
or universal theme. Yet, more often than not, it's the "difference" makes
each
distinct genre interesting. To introduce wu-xia to western readers through
similiar
western concepts and themes (and etc) is different than enjoy wu-xia without
cross-cultural references. As for the plot example of yours, to a degree,
it's too
simplisitic to capture the essence of either wu-xia and western genre. For
example,
if this sequence happens in a wu-xia narrative, I would ask who is the one
being
challenged? is he a famous xia with great martial arts skills, which clan he
belongs
to? does he often engage in this sort of duel-with-Jianghu nobody who wants
to
be somebody thing? which time period did this sequence happen? and the
question
can go on forever (same as in western narrative). This kind of plot, IMO, is
a special
case in wu-xia genre rather than a commonly represented theme. As you
probably already
finish reading "Deer," I think you can recall that there's no such plot in
"Deer." As my
memory goes (I read each one of Jing Yong's works more than four times
except for one),
this typical plot you mentioned has never happened (lets say "plainly) in
Jing Yong's
wu-xia stories.
>
> In Western stories you can find many parallels to Eastern wu-xia, although
> of course the two are not identical. A quasi-feudal system, often far
from
> the reaches of the goverment; fighters with incredible prowess at weapons
> and hand-to-hand combat; loyalty to a master and to sworn brothers.
yes, and as I said, I've been concerning more about the "not identical"
issue.
>
> Abstracted even further, superhero stories often have similar elements, as
> do police and gangster stories. The idea of a "fraternity of chivalrous
> men" can be found in all of those genres, with very similar implications.
> The specifics are different, but unless people actively think of wu-xia as
> completely foreign to their experience, I believe they can understand it
by
> parallel to familiar stories.
once again, just like what I say above and in another post. Understanding
wu-xia
through cross-cultural reference is different than enjoying wu-xia on its
own
right. There's something about wu-xia in particular and Chinese in general
that
demands western audience more effort (with an open mind) to understand to
fully enjoy the genre. As you read "Romance of Three Kingdoms," you would
pick up the most important "brotherhood" idea in Chinese culture, and learn
that Kwan Kung is a symbol of "rightouse" man (the symbol of perfect knight
errants), and you can see the Kwan Kung reference / influence not only in
wu-xia genre but also in HK police / gangsters films (well, both cops and
mobsters
worship Kwan Kung..).
deadmead
DaleWBerry
> "Jeff Coleman" <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> wrote:
>>
>> <zhuge...@my-deja.com>
>wrote in message
>> news:94hv6d$h5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> > In article
><IJYa6.4638$7b2.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>>
>> > Interesting. You may also be able to compare to Chanson de
>Geste
>and
>> > medieval romance and renditions. Some of the elements you describe
>> > exist in works such as Arthur Conan Doyles "The White Company" and
>in
>> > ballads such as "Gamble Gold"
>
>> <excellent poem snipped>
>>
>> > Which I can readily see as a scene from a Chinese film with bold
>bravoes
>> > of the Greenwood.
>>
>> Definitely--especially where the Pedlar says "if you move me from this>
>> perch". He could then defend himself from that one position, showing
>his
>> skill by moving as little as possible.
>
One of the universal concepts of heroic fiction -from the first 'xia' folk
tales right thru' to the chivalric romances and beyond- settling differences
with an organized duel following proscribed,mutually recognized rules of
'fairplay'. It reflects skill and control,and implies that the combatants are
'civilized'...as opposed to crude 'brawlers',interested only in
overpowering/killing(ie; a 'code of honor').
>>
>Just one caveat, "similar to" is not "equal to". I am moderating an
>egroup on Daoist texts and one of the problems of modern scholarship is
>to be careful of projecting modern western points of view onto Chinese
>culture. Things such as concepts of
>self, individualism, law, etc. are
>not necessarily easily transferable to other cultures at different
>periods of time.
Very true,and it gets tough. F'rinstance,since I deal with a fantasy series, I
can't just have someone,say,cast a spell without having a complete handle on
the cosmological rules of a Taoist-Buddhist universe and the mechanics of how
it works. Encountering a nature-god in China isn't the same as encountering
Jack-in-the-Green... :) But I find that communicating the mechanics of such a
thing to Western readers in a story (showing the process of
chants/mudras/charms,etc. to cast a spell) makes the 'fantastical' seem more
plausible than simply pointing a finger and saying "Alakazam". Not that Merlin
didn't use magical processes,but the techniques of Eastern magic are more
specifically detailed,and thus seem more 'real'.
And that's just one example (phew!)...
> Even modern Chinese scholars who have been Western
>educated sometimes have this problem. So, be very aware of the
>differences (if you want to start a ruckus in scholarly circles, just
>describe some Chinese structures at certain times as "feudal" and see
>what happens, <grin>).
Thankfully,nobody knew they were living in a feudal society at the time,so
hopefully,I can work to avoid that ;)
>And. bear in mind that the Western mindset before the modern era was
>different, so when you are evaluating texts that date before the Western
>Englightenment be careful in assuming that what they meant is the same
>as what one would mean today.
>
Your right. I've been trying to concentrate on stories that focus on the Human
Condition,trying to keep the emotional tolls on the characters fairly real and
fairly generalized, so to have a wider appeal. I'm quite sure I'll get stuff
wrong...but I'll be satisfied if I can come pretty close.
-Dale
Jeff Coleman
I agree with your assessment of my rather tenuous example--another that
sprung to mind is that of a character attempting to quit his ties with his
previous specialized community for a more straightforward life but being
drawn back into it--a theme which appears in CTHD, THE GODFATHER II, and
UNFORGIVEN, to name just a few examples. Again, I don't try to argue that
these movies are identical or that they all say exactly the same thing
either. I do think, though, that many people can appreciate a genre that's
broad, but has some very specific conventions. I also agree that a large
part of it is how much you want to find out about the culture that produces
the genre--but you could also take a deconstructing approach and combine
some of its elements with several other genres, resulting in something like
STAR WARS.
I have noticed that, in fact, and that in OUTLAWS OF THE MARSH, the
character called Sagacious Lu tries to buy a halberd heavier than that of
Kwan Kung, and the blacksmith won't sell it to him because nobody could
carry it :)
Thanks again for so much education on these subjects, it's very helpful to
read such a lot of good posts!
DaleWBerry
>snip<
>This is what I was talking about: reference and perspective. It's inevitably
>that in the process of translation / transformation, you need to rely on the
>reference to "simlilar" western conditions / concepts to introduce wu-xia
>
>genre to western readers. The basic theme / situation of "sword & sorcery"
>genres are "similar" but the particular "flavors" are different, beginning
>with
>the fundemental difference in "langauge." The "name / title" of a Jianghu
>
>character would lose the original flavor no matter how hard you try
>to translate it. Another thing is that, if you contrive to do a "faithful"
>transformation,
>it would demand your readers a lot effort to understand "the social
>structure,
>the milieu" of "Jianghu" and Chinese historical /
>socio-cultural-political
>conditions.
>To create exciting, communicatable wu-xia comic books for western readers is
>a different matter because as long as the content of comic books makes sense
>to the readers it would be fine, regardless how much the readers
>know about
>Chinese culture.
>
Thankfully,this is where the drawing comes in ;) Its one of the reasons I'm
doing it as a comic book...in some ways,its easier to get a picture right than
the language. And I avoid a lot of clunky,Anglicized terms for Chinese concepts
while still communicating the 'Chinese-ness' of the story.
>same question, how deep can you go in portraying Chinese historical /
>socio-cultural
>conditions, and how much effort you demand your readers in understanding a
>foregin culture.
>
Well,to be sure,my stories have to concentrate on simpler plots than on the
complex relationships inherent in a typical wuxia novel. But this can also
allow one to concentrate on educating the reader on a more specific cultural
aspect (example: a wuxia novel might not need to explain the details of a
village silk-harvesting -the Chinese reader might already be familiar with
that. But by *illustrating* those details in the backgrounds of a comic
story,without necessarily going into long explanation into the process and
slowing down the narrative,Western readers assimilate/familiarize themselves
with it. Mise-en-scene...!).
Later,as the reader becomes more familiar with the mileu,I can begin to
introduce more complex character development...and slowly introduce people to a
more 'classic' interpretation (as I learn more of it myself,of course... ).
Plus,there's always the editorial and letter columns to tell folks where to go
to learn more... ;)
> Also, in your comic series, do you need to "explain" / "justify"
>wu-xia
>fantasy (such as "light kung") before you begin your story?
>
Not so much,actually. I like the Tsui Hark approach when it comes to this:don't
explain it so much as show it...and keep moving :)
Gotta run,more later...
-Dale
DaleWBerry
Just wanted to finish up...
>From: "deadmead"
>Message-id: <2Y2b6.7000$1m.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>
>
>hope it will work out well (based on your objective). I really don't have
>any doubt
>that a translation of wu-xia genre is possible; as every translation is
>inevitably a
>compromise, I only want to say that, to me, the compromise isn't beautiful
>(of course>only in the perfect world can translation becomes correspondence).
I feel pretty confident with everything but the poetry. I can draw it to "feel"
like a wuxia world,and I can devise character and plot that evoke the wuxia
world. The lyricism of the language,in its original form,I cannot do. At best,I
rely on translations of songs and poems.
Ah well,two out of three isn't bad. Its enough at least to attract a readership
and,perhaps,turn them onto the wuxia world some more... :)
> I don't
>doubt there's
>similiarity between any given cultural concept, but the rythm and flavor of
>all those
>wu-xia terms would be lost in the process of translation: wu-xia />wu-lin /
>Jianghu /
>any given specific wu-kung / Jianghu characters' names and titles and so
>on...
For some of these,I refer to them by name('wuxia' instead of 'knight' or
'knighthood',for example). Names and locations are a mix of both the Chinese
and the equivalent English translation (depends on the situation).
I've cheated somewhat in placing the story in the Song,in that the 'jianghu'
wasn't known by that name until it was labelled in the Ming/Ching dynasties (as
I understand the chronology of it). But I try to give the characters dialogue
that makes reference to such a world in the formative stages. I've toyed with
the idea of doing what the later writer's did and referring to the 'martial
world' as already existing full-blown,but sometimes the best thing to do is not
mention it at all and just let the xia appear and do their stuff. Again,it
depends on the situation of the story.
>They are "poetic" in Chinese langauge, and trusting a good translator like
>you, I
>believe they would also be "poetic" in the translation, but they will
>inevitably
>be "poetic" differently because the difference between Chinese and English.
>
You are, perhaps,too kind. Thank you very much. I'll try to keep it all as
faithful as possible. People are watching... ;)
Best,
Dale
>deadmead
>
deadmead
cross-cultural texts),
it's very interesting to look at the varations: for example, how this "it
pulls me back in" theme
is depicted in different film genres (most interestingly for me
cross-culturally).
In wu-xia genre (more often in novels than films), this theme is very, very
"popular," to the
extend that almost as "universal" as "women dresssing up as men" (this being
a scenic nessecity,
since in ancient China, a girl on the road alone was very inconvient and
unconventional). In most
the "leaving Jianghu" situations, Jianghu characters are escaping something:
mostly their foes (one
important lines of the narrative of "The Blade" is this typical "escaping
from old foes and becoming
nobody" theme, and of course, later we have revenge...). And this group of
"nobody" would always
be digged out either by their foes or other dramatic reasons in the
narrative. In other cases, some
Jianghu characters may just stay away from Jianghu lives for various
personal reasons: regretting
the wrongdoings in the past, cannot stand the bloodsheding "career" or
sometimes like Li Mu Bai
in CTHD (the movie, not the novel), who attends a very high level of wu-shu
and spirtuality, and
doesn't want to get involved in Jianghu events. Of course, as long as these
characters are mentioned
in a wu-xia novel or film, they will be "pulled back in" again as the
narrative progresses. In many
gangster films, this theme is also very popular precisely because gangsters
are also living in
"Jianghu." Looking at the similarity between wu-xia and gangster genres,
most Jianghu characters
are "gangsters": they have their own "clans." The difference, IMO, resides
in that there's "xia" / "good"
clans and evil "clans" in wu-xia genre, but there's only "gangsters" or
"killers" in gangster genre. "Good"
gang who didn't sell drugs and the "bad" ones who sell drugs only differ in
degree, but not in kind.
Yet, in wu-xia genre, the line between "good" and "evil" clan isn't always
clear when good writers deal
with the issue. Jing Yong plays with "good" and "evil" Jianghu characters
all the time (you can get a little
taste of this from the movie "The Swordsman I"); also in "The Bride with
White Hair I" (also based on
a wu-xia novel).
There's old Chinese expression that most often used in both wu-xia and
gangster (or later on "Hero" films
after ABT got big) genres: "when you're in Jianghu, your own will means
nothing" (not a good translation,
but I think the meaning is close). When your own will means nothing, you
cannot really esacpe from
Jianghu as long as you've been in Jianghu. From this light, gangster genre
is also a good reference in addition
to chivalrous knights for western audience to understand wu-xia world.
deadmead
"Jeff Coleman" <jcol...@NOSPAMhandofgod.com> 撰寫於郵件
news:Bm6b6.5671$Mu1.4...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Ken McCary
-KM
Jeff Coleman wrote:
>
> <zhuge...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:9423se$32j$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > SNIP
> >
> > Overlooked this
> >
> > (An earlier Louis Cha novel, "Book and Sword: Gratitude and Revenge," is
> > available
> > for download in its entirety, in English, from
> > "http://idt.net/~earnshaw.")
>
> Is it? All I got was an empty directory at that address...
>
> >
> > Louis Cha is Jin Yong?
> >
> > and is the abvove, the same that Ann Hui based her two movies "Romance
> > of Book and Sword" and "Princess Fragrence" on?
>