Running Out of Time: Why not an art house release?
str...@strudel.net
Greetings:
I thought I would try to start a little discussion on a subject that's
been on my mind lately.
After seeing "Running Out of Time" at the Music Palace recently, I was
feeling that it was quite a good film, done very well, with lots of
interesting elements: cinematography, acting, storyline, etc.
My wife asked me why this (and other similarly high quality) HK aren't
released in the US (or New York in particular) as "art films," because
they are certainly as high (or higher) quality than most of the
so-called "art house" films that come out.
My reaction was that art house films are supposed to have a certain
look; that there's an international style (based on a European model)
of what an art house movie is supposed to look like, and HK movies
don't fit that mold. If you look at films of Zhang Yimou, you can see
what I mean by an "international art house" style.
My thinking was that since the best HK "art" movies are in reality
mainstream cinema, they can't be accepted. I've often likened HK
cinema to the Hollywood studio films of the '40s and '50s--films that
were meant for the general audience, yet rose to a high level.
In other words, I feel that art house programmers couldn't abide by
(or market) a movie like "Running Out of Time" because it's a bit like
an action film, and is in reality a mainstream film. Even though by
dint of its acting, filming and directing it is every bit as fine a
film as one will see in general in the art houses.
Any comments?
e.
headrush
: In other words, I feel that art house programmers couldn't abide by
: (or market) a movie like "Running Out of Time" because it's a bit like
: an action film, and is in reality a mainstream film. Even though by
: dint of its acting, filming and directing it is every bit as fine a
: film as one will see in general in the art houses.
: Any comments?
Aren't some of the art house "foreign" films considered mainstream in
their originating countries? I don't really know but I wouldn't be
surprised if that was true.
It seems that HK movies are not categorized as art house. I don't
remember any HK films being shown in those venues. I could be wrong on
that but I just don't remember any instances.
MC4
> Aren't some of the art house "foreign" films considered mainstream in
> their originating countries? I don't really know but I wouldn't be
> surprised if that was true.
It is true. They might not be the most popular movies in their country
of origin, but most of them have a following. Something like "The
Visitors" with Jean Reno, was hugely popular in France.
> It seems that HK movies are not categorized as art house. I don't
> remember any HK films being shown in those venues. I could be wrong
on
> that but I just don't remember any instances.
"Comrades, Almost a Love Story," "Fallen Angels," "Happy Together," and
"Chung King Express" immediately come to mind.
Hong Kong movie have two things working against "art house"
distribution. Number one, Hong Kong movies are looked down upon by the
American art house crowd. When they think of Hong Kong movies they
think of bad gung-fu movies. If they do show HK movies they usually do
it late at night, or give it a label like "guilty pleasures" (like a
local theater did). It's a snobbery thing and there's not much to be
done about it. It's pretty ingrained in the American film community.
This crowd only wants to see movies with Chinese characters if the movie
is about how much mainland China culture sucks. If it doesn't have
suffering and oppression -- usually perpetrated against children --
then it's not worth watching.
Number two, it's an action movie. The art house crowd hates action
movies. If a Hong Kong movie hopes to make it to the art house it
better be about romance, or something influenced by European cinema
(Wong Kar-Wai).
--mc4
A Website Never Dies
Hong Kong Movie Reviews, Music, and Much More.
http://www.hkmdb.com/mc4/
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kangaroo
house movies. Hong Kong directors donot make art house movies. Wong
Kar-Wai is the only art house director. But his movies are usually doing
badly in Hong Kong. John Woo and To are commercial action directors with
styles. And their works are influence by foreign movies. You guys are so
funny to think these are art house films. I would never feel any pleasure
and consider myself being better. Because I am into Hong Kong art house
movies. You know the stuffs that you like are being watch by everyones in
Hong Kong. And the commercials in the media for these movies could really
make you sick.
headrush wrote:
> str...@strudel.net wrote:
>
> : In other words, I feel that art house programmers couldn't abide by
> : (or market) a movie like "Running Out of Time" because it's a bit like
> : an action film, and is in reality a mainstream film. Even though by
> : dint of its acting, filming and directing it is every bit as fine a
> : film as one will see in general in the art houses.
>
> : Any comments?
>
> Aren't some of the art house "foreign" films considered mainstream in
> their originating countries? I don't really know but I wouldn't be
> surprised if that was true.
>
MC4
> To Americans, every movies in foreign language are being consider as
art
> house movies. Hong Kong directors donot make art house movies.
I think you misunderstood. No one is say that these are art house
movies, what we are saying is that the art house would be a good forum
for these movies. In the mainstream theaters all we get are Jackie
Chan/Jet Li movies that are dubbed, and severely edited. American "art
house" theaters are now more about pushing obscure movies be they
foreign or domestic. Certainly, I would say Milkyway has been producing
movies that are more artistically interesting that the likes of "The
Dinner Game," or most of the crap that they put in such theaters
recently.
> I would never feel any pleasure
> and consider myself being better. Because I am into Hong Kong art
house
> movies. You know the stuffs that you like are being watch by
everyones in
> Hong Kong.
Again, you misunderstood.
> And the commercials in the media for these movies could really make
you sick.
Just like American trailers, most HK trailers give too much of the movie
away. I'm glad I don't see most of them until after I've already seen
the movie.
Conan Purves
days are sold on a class/demographics basis rather than any artistic
concerns. They are the movies marketed for the supposedly educated
upper-middle classes to consume. With that market in mind, they have to
contain certain elements that have become acceptable to that audience
(costume design, slow pacing, nubile euro-babe coming of age, etc.).
As you said, HK films have too much of a popular appeal to them, so they
don't even get on distributor's radar. I remember when a bunch of Jackie
Chan's films showed at the SF film festival about 10 years ago. They got
great reviews, but I remember my girlfriends father, who was a film
professor, telling me that some people were annoyed they were in the film
festival. I can see them in Project A: "this movie is entertaining me, I
can't stand it."
I sure do miss all the repertory theatres that showed artistic and
entertaining movies.
Conan
w e i
while i need to think more about what the question means, i'd like to ask:
which of the following would you pick if you are an "art house" programmer
who like to show a film here?
shanghai triad
4 faces of eve
hard boiled
running out of time
the odd one dies
storm rider
:)
> Greetings:
>
> I thought I would try to start a little discussion on a subject that's
> been on my mind lately.
>
> After seeing "Running Out of Time" at the Music Palace recently, I was
> feeling that it was quite a good film, done very well, with lots of
> interesting elements: cinematography, acting, storyline, etc.
>
> My wife asked me why this (and other similarly high quality) HK aren't
> released in the US (or New York in particular) as "art films," because
> they are certainly as high (or higher) quality than most of the
> so-called "art house" films that come out.
>
> My reaction was that art house films are supposed to have a certain
> look; that there's an international style (based on a European model)
> of what an art house movie is supposed to look like, and HK movies
> don't fit that mold. If you look at films of Zhang Yimou, you can see
> what I mean by an "international art house" style.
>
> My thinking was that since the best HK "art" movies are in reality
> mainstream cinema, they can't be accepted. I've often likened HK
> cinema to the Hollywood studio films of the '40s and '50s--films that
> were meant for the general audience, yet rose to a high level.
>
> In other words, I feel that art house programmers couldn't abide by
> (or market) a movie like "Running Out of Time" because it's a bit like
> an action film, and is in reality a mainstream film. Even though by
> dint of its acting, filming and directing it is every bit as fine a
> film as one will see in general in the art houses.
>
> Any comments?
>
> e.
>
>
>
>
> str...@strudel.net
> www.strudel.net
(please remove NOSPAM to respond)
headrush
means commercial (i.e. not art house). Its not like I already say it
before you came with your cooler-than-thou speech.
To point a finger at "you guys" is kind of silly. Sure many Americans
may think that. But there are a lot knowledgeable film fans too.
Either way, American art house venues don't show much from HK whether
they are art house or mainstream. Sure you get some shown at an
occasional film festival or an "Asian" themed film festival but not
much from what I have seen.
I can see why commercial HK films are shown in US art house venues...
and I can see why some detest its change in category as it transfers to
a non-HK location. Except recently, HK films have very little exposure
in the US....well unless you count the Kung Fu genre.
Kangaroo (wood...@hotmail.com) wrote:
: To Americans, every movies in foreign language are being consider as art
: house movies. Hong Kong directors donot make art house movies. Wong
: Kar-Wai is the only art house director. But his movies are usually doing
: badly in Hong Kong. John Woo and To are commercial action directors with
: styles. And their works are influence by foreign movies. You guys are so
: funny to think these are art house films. I would never feel any pleasure
: and consider myself being better. Because I am into Hong Kong art house
: movies. You know the stuffs that you like are being watch by everyones in
: Hong Kong. And the commercials in the media for these movies could really
: make you sick.
: headrush wrote:
: > str...@strudel.net wrote:
: >
: > : In other words, I feel that art house programmers couldn't abide by
: > : (or market) a movie like "Running Out of Time" because it's a bit like
: > : an action film, and is in reality a mainstream film. Even though by
: > : dint of its acting, filming and directing it is every bit as fine a
: > : film as one will see in general in the art houses.
: >
: > : Any comments?
: >
: > Aren't some of the art house "foreign" films considered mainstream in
ageorge3
initial exposure at film festivals). From roughly 1989 to 1996, HK
action films -- primarily stuff from Woo, Tsui Hark, and Jackie --
played in the US at two kinds of theaters only: Chinese neighborhood
theaters and art houses.
But after the broad commercial success of Rumble in the Bronx, HK
producers saw there was gold in them there hills and started holding
back their best product from arthouses in hope of a mainstream sale for
millions of dollars. In the case of Jackie's films and the occasional
Jet Li film, they even refused to release the movies to their
traditional, loyal outlets in the Chinese neighborhoods. Most of those
theaters have since closed down. When you consider the importance of the
Chan films to them -- nearly every year through 1995, Jackie made two or
more movies that were usually the two biggest draws for such theaters --
the withholding of these films was certainly a factor.
But the dearth of HK art house releases these days can reflect only two
things: either the vogue for HK films in those venues has passed; or,
likelier, the producers, dreaming of Rumble-like deals, are holding out
for more money than most independent distributors can fork over.
> > In other words, I feel that art house programmers couldn't abide by
> > (or market) a movie like "Running Out of Time" because it's a bit like
> > an action film, and is in reality a mainstream film. Even though by
> > dint of its acting, filming and directing it is every bit as fine a
> > film as one will see in general in the art houses.
> >
> > Any comments?
> >
Brian
> > It seems that HK movies are not categorized as art house. I don't
> > remember any HK films being shown in those venues. I could be wrong
> on
> > that but I just don't remember any instances.
>
> "Comrades, Almost a Love Story," "Fallen Angels," "Happy Together," and
> "Chung King Express" immediately come to mind.
>
I wonder how well these films did box-office wise relative to other foreign
films in the states?. My guess is pretty poorly. It may be economics as much
as anything - at least from the point of view of the people who book the
films. Here in NYC we have about 5 movie theaters that tend to show foreign
films - but I can't think of a HK film ever being shown in them (though
perhaps some of the above were for a short run).
I just don't think the theater owners feel that a HK film will pull in many
people - and that there is a negative impression among most movie-goers re:
HK films - and they may be right. I know lots of people who will immediately
rush out for the newest French or German or Italian film - but a HK film? -
not a chance. And if anything the recent spate of Jackie Chan films has only
reinforced their views of what HK films are all about. The people who are
going to see the Chan films are for the most part not the same people who
frequent the foreign film theaters.
So its a tough nut to crack - and for the most part I wouldn't care except
HK films can use any revenue they can get these days. And there really are
some films from HK that I think these people would like if they took the
opportunity.Look at the German film Run Lola Run - there's violence, kinetic
editing, cool camera angles, strange story line - all the elements of a
Milkyway film - and its done pretty well at the box-office - but will we
ever see A Hero Never Dies or Too Many Ways to be Number 1 showing at these
theaters - not likely. But you never know - if one of these films was ever
picked up,got some good press and did well then it could possibly open the
doors for many others.
Brian
= = = = = = = = =
HK Cinema - View from the Brooklyn Bridge: http://brns.com/
22 new and exciting reviews added this month alone!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
weepi...@earthlink.net
In article <380E4A08...@earthlink.net>, Brian <ns...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> So its a tough nut to crack - and for the most part I wouldn't care except
> HK films can use any revenue they can get these days. And there really are
> some films from HK that I think these people would like if they took the
> opportunity.Look at the German film Run Lola Run - there's violence, kinetic
> editing, cool camera angles, strange story line - all the elements of a
> Milkyway film - and its done pretty well at the box-office - but will we
> ever see A Hero Never Dies or Too Many Ways to be Number 1 showing at these
> theaters - not likely. But you never know - if one of these films was ever
> picked up,got some good press and did well then it could possibly open the
> doors for many others.
I think the problem is at the distribution end rather than the audience end.
Various local theaters show Hong Kong films - and inevitably draw huge
crowds. Granted, those are huge crowds for 2-3 showings of a film, not the
same as running it 5 times a day for a month, but I have to think that
people could be convinced to see those films. They need good reviews of
course - like LOLA got - but they'd get them, and I think they'd do okay.
The "art house" audience isn't entirely segregated from the popular audience
- films like BLAIR WITCH PROJECT opened in art houses, films like THE LIMEY
and FIGHT CLUB seem to cross the lines a bit - I think TOO MANY WAYS TO BE
NUMBER ONE would have a pretty good chance of making some money.....
But none of those films is being distributed. Whether the rights owners are
being greedy, or the distribution scouts are idiots (that seems believable)
or Chinese films of all kinds are being ignored just now, I don't know. The
very few films from HK that are distributed are films that are fairly
obscure and "artsy" even by American standards - Wong Kar-wei, notably.
COMRADES, ALMOST A LOVE STORY was closer to the kind of American film that
plays art houses....
str...@strudel.net
[snip]
>So its a tough nut to crack - and for the most part I wouldn't care except
>HK films can use any revenue they can get these days. And there really are
>some films from HK that I think these people would like if they took the
>opportunity.Look at the German film Run Lola Run - there's violence, kinetic
>editing, cool camera angles, strange story line - all the elements of a
>Milkyway film - and its done pretty well at the box-office - but will we
>ever see A Hero Never Dies or Too Many Ways to be Number 1 showing at these
>theaters - not likely. But you never know - if one of these films was ever
>picked up,got some good press and did well then it could possibly open the
>doors for many others.
Interesting that you should mention "Run Lola Run" and "Too Many Ways"
in the same paragraph, because when I saw "Lola," I found myself
wondering if the filmmaker had seen "Too Many Ways," because the form
of the story was so similar. I was thinking that "Lola" was a cool
movie based on an HK movie!
I'm a huge fan of "Too Many Ways," and yet, when I think about
recommending it to people who love movies but are unfamiliar with HK
movies, I hesitate: I think that it is culturally too hooked up with
HK cinema to cross over internationally. For example, "Lola" is done
in such a way that most any European or American-oriented viewer could
get the humor and what's going on. But I feel that "Two Many Ways" has
so many references that are HK(movie)-specific that I think it
wouldn't work so well for the "uninitiated." Some people who aren't
used to it just wouldn't get people chopping off their fingers!
e.
str...@strudel.net
wrote:
>wow, you must like that film a lot..
>while i need to think more about what the question means, i'd like to ask:
>
>which of the following would you pick if you are an "art house" programmer
>who like to show a film here?
>
>shanghai triad
>
>4 faces of eve
>
>hard boiled
>
>running out of time
>
>the odd one dies
>
>storm rider
>
I haven't seen "Shanghai Triad" nor "4 Faces of Eve." Your question is
difficult to answer because it would depend on the situation, but I
would probably pick the two Milkyway films: "Running Out of Time" and
"The Odd One Dies." But I would also throw in "Too Many Ways to Be
Number One," among many others!
e.
headrush
: > It seems that HK movies are not categorized as art house. I don't
: > remember any HK films being shown in those venues. I could be wrong
: on
: > that but I just don't remember any instances.
: "Comrades, Almost a Love Story," "Fallen Angels," "Happy Together," and
: "Chung King Express" immediately come to mind.
Good films. Imagine how many films HK has produced in the past two
decades. You listed five films from the top of your head. Not to point
the finger at you or anyone but that is a very tiny fraction of what
comes out of HK. I'm sure there are more non-action HK films that would
qualify for decent to great art house screenings.
: Hong Kong movie have two things working against "art house"
: distribution. Number one, Hong Kong movies are looked down upon by the
: American art house crowd. When they think of Hong Kong movies they
: think of bad gung-fu movies. If they do show HK movies they usually do
: it late at night, or give it a label like "guilty pleasures" (like a
: local theater did). It's a snobbery thing and there's not much to be
: done about it. It's pretty ingrained in the American film community.
: This crowd only wants to see movies with Chinese characters if the movie
: is about how much mainland China culture sucks. If it doesn't have
: suffering and oppression -- usually perpetrated against children --
: then it's not worth watching.
Well it doesn't have to be a Kung Fu or Triad movie. Hmmmm. Maybe a
period piece seems more cultural to the western viewer. I don't know.
I like the films that the current generation of mainland Chinese
directors are/have made but ....sh*t....I would get tired of seeing
period pieces if that is the majority of the region/country's cinema.
And that would apply to any country for that matter because there are
only so many US Civil war or western cowboy movies (or whatever be the
period piece) that I can stomach.
But its a tough since HK folks don't rush to see too many non-action
movies. At least the box office doesn't fare well in that situation.
So those films may not see the light of day much less get exported for
US art houses. Oh well. Maybe someone will draw them out of HK so they
can survive and do well overseas.
: Number two, it's an action movie. The art house crowd hates action
: movies. If a Hong Kong movie hopes to make it to the art house it
: better be about romance, or something influenced by European cinema
: (Wong Kar-Wai).
I guess I can understand the action movie reaction. That genre
generally doesn't rate high in strong stories and exceptional acting.
alberich
> In fact, the entire HK movie boom derived from art-house bookings (after
> initial exposure at film festivals). From roughly 1989 to 1996, HK
> action films -- primarily stuff from Woo, Tsui Hark, and Jackie --
> played in the US at two kinds of theaters only: Chinese neighborhood
> theaters and art houses.
>
> But after the broad commercial success of Rumble in the Bronx, HK
> producers saw there was gold in them there hills and started holding
> back their best product from arthouses in hope of a mainstream sale for
> millions of dollars. In the case of Jackie's films and the occasional
> Jet Li film, they even refused to release the movies to their
> traditional, loyal outlets in the Chinese neighborhoods. Most of those
> theaters have since closed down. When you consider the importance of the
> Chan films to them -- nearly every year through 1995, Jackie made two or
> more movies that were usually the two biggest draws for such theaters --
> the withholding of these films was certainly a factor.
>
> But the dearth of HK art house releases these days can reflect only two
> things: either the vogue for HK films in those venues has passed; or,
> likelier, the producers, dreaming of Rumble-like deals, are holding out
> for more money than most independent distributors can fork over.
>
>
I'm glad that you brought this up. I guess many people here dont know but
a lot of HK action films did get played in the art house cinemas in the
ealy 90s at least here in NYC. I remember "The Killer", "Hard Boiled"
"Bride with White Hair" and others were very popular at the Agelika
theater.
Conan Purves
Steve Erickson
> MC4 wrote:
>
> > > It seems that HK movies are not categorized as art house. I don't
> > > remember any HK films being shown in those venues. I could be wrong
> > on
> > > that but I just don't remember any instances.
> >
> > "Comrades, Almost a Love Story," "Fallen Angels," "Happy Together," and
> > "Chung King Express" immediately come to mind.
> >
>
> I wonder how well these films did box-office wise relative to other foreign
> films in the states?. My guess is pretty poorly. It may be economics as much
> as anything - at least from the point of view of the people who book the
> films. Here in NYC we have about 5 movie theaters that tend to show foreign
> films - but I can't think of a HK film ever being shown in them (though
> perhaps some of the above were for a short run).
All 4 of the above films played at NYC arthouses. HAPPY TOGETHER was quite
successful, actually, and played for more than 2 months, while FALLEN
ANGELS and CHUNG KING EXPRESS played for at least a month. The Cinema
Village's annual HK series did quite well, although this no longer takes
place due to Peter Chow's disinterest in the field.
>
> I just don't think the theater owners feel that a HK film will pull in many
> people - and that there is a negative impression among most movie-goers re:
> HK films - and they may be right. I know lots of people who will immediately
> rush out for the newest French or German or Italian film - but a HK film? -
> not a chance. And if anything the recent spate of Jackie Chan films has only
> reinforced their views of what HK films are all about. The people who are
> going to see the Chan films are for the most part not the same people who
> frequent the foreign film theaters.
Judging from the audiences that Cinema Village used to attract, I don't
think the program lies in the exhibitor's end. And I know a lot more people
who'd get excited about a new HK film - based solely on its country of
origin - than a new German or Italian film.
--
Steve Erickson
Remove "nospam" to reply.
http://home.earthlink.net/~steevee
Dam...@webtv.net
area were at "art" theaters...Ive been watching this thread and it seems
like some ppl had no idea!...The Killer was released by circle films in
the US in 1990?..and played all the arthouse theaters as well as all the
Jackie Chan films..So obviously they do make money and even have broad
commercial appeal more so then you tradional european fare.
Websurfer
vsoe
>http://www.hongkongmovie.com/victim/
>It is still showing in HK.
>Another movie by Lau Ching Wan.
The web site is all in Chinese--anyone for a rough translation? Who's the
director & what's the storyline?
v.
MC4
>The web site is all in Chinese--anyone for a rough translation? Who's the
>director & what's the storyline?
Ringo Lam is the director. I'm not going to read any of the text, though.
Too much HK advertising material gives away the whole movie. Ever see the
trailer for "Expect The Unexpected"?
--mc4