The Workers do not Dream
George Dance
The workers do not dream
of renouncing love
inexplicably
they cling to this
final bastion of exploitation
while the dogs piss
on their legs and dry-hump
their empty dreams
and the fat cats
whip them in bondage
while their severed hands
make good paperweights
for upper management
even as their disillusionment
is torn from them
as the wild dog tears flesh
free from the bone
they will not gauge themselves
by their loss
still they cling
to that missing
part of themselves
as if perpetually
anchored
to an invisible echelon
watching gunboats approach
gracefully they cling
to their final slavery
their renunciation
a eulogy to love
a torn sheet hanging
from a hotel window
as the management's dogs
enter unbidden
death's sweet dream
and if anything is missing
when the bodies are catalogued
no poor employee
will speak up.
–--
Lines by aapc collective
Poem by George Dance
matt
i knew that looked familiar.
thanks for posting.
matt
George Dance
You wrote LL6-8, probably more.
Fred Oinka
More cowbell! I gotta have more cowbell, baby!
George Dance
Hmm ... the only thing I can think of is fitting in a chorus:
They're the hon-on-on-onkytonk workers.
Gimme, gimme, gimme the honkytonk proles.
And I'd rather not do that.
Will Dockery
Yes, this was an interesting time, maybe we can try something like it
again one day soon...
--
"She Sleeps Tight" by Dockery & Mallard (video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
George Dance
I tried starting one with Matt a couple of weeks ago; he replied, but
no one else jumped in. I might try reposting that under its own
thread. Or probably not; a completely new one would work better.
Will Dockery
A really strong first line could get the ball rolling... I just
noticed, or thought about, how many of the folks who contributed to
this poem have left the newsgroup already.
Karla
wrote:
How do you know this? Did they email you? Did you read that they died? Did you
call them and their phone is disconnected? Did God tell you?
Will Dockery
> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:33:08 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com>
I know a few of them personally, but why do you care?
Karla
wrote:
>On Aug 9, 6:37�ｿｽpm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:33:08 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Aug 9, 6:08�ｿｽpm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> >> On Aug 9, 3:45�ｿｽpm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > �ｿｽ--
>> >> > > Lines by aapc collective
>> >> > > Poem by George Dance
>>
>> >> > Yes, this was an interesting time, maybe we can try something like it
>> >> > again one day soon...
>>
>> >> > --
>> >> > "She Sleeps Tight" by Dockery & Mallard (video):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
>>
>> >> I tried starting one with Matt a couple of weeks ago; he replied, but
>> >> no one else jumped in. I might try reposting that under its own
>> >> thread. Or probably not; a completely new one would work better.
>>
>> >A really strong first line could get the ball rolling... I just
>> >noticed, or thought about, how many of the folks who contributed to
>> >this poem have left the newsgroup already.
>>
>> How do you know this?
>
>I know a few of them personally, but why do you care?
Didn't you post that they left because you thought people would care? Or was it
a troll?
Will Dockery
> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Aug 9, 6:37 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:33:08 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> On Aug 9, 3:45 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> > > Lines by aapc collective
> >> >> > > Poem by George Dance
>
> >> >> > Yes, this was an interesting time, maybe we can try something like it
> >> >> > again one day soon...
>
> >> >> > --
> >> >> > "She Sleeps Tight" by Dockery & Mallard (video):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
>
> >> >> I tried starting one with Matt a couple of weeks ago; he replied, but
> >> >> no one else jumped in. I might try reposting that under its own
> >> >> thread. Or probably not; a completely new one would work better.
>
> >> >A really strong first line could get the ball rolling... I just
> >> >noticed, or thought about, how many of the folks who contributed to
> >> >this poem have left the newsgroup already.
>
> >> How do you know this?
>
> >I know a few of them personally, but why do you care?
>
> Didn't you post that they left because you thought people would care?
No, I was thinking that without most of the poets who worked on this
poem last spring, there may not be much participation in a new one...
for instance, will you contribute?
Karla
wrote:
>On Aug 9, 6:44�ｿｽpm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:42:49 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Aug 9, 6:37�ｿｽpm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>> >> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:33:08 -0700 (PDT), Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>> >> >On Aug 9, 6:08�ｿｽpm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> >> >> On Aug 9, 3:45�ｿｽpm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >> > > �ｿｽ--
>> >> >> > > Lines by aapc collective
>> >> >> > > Poem by George Dance
>>
>> >> >> > Yes, this was an interesting time, maybe we can try something like it
>> >> >> > again one day soon...
>>
>> >> >> > --
>> >> >> > "She Sleeps Tight" by Dockery & Mallard (video):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
>>
>> >> >> I tried starting one with Matt a couple of weeks ago; he replied, but
>> >> >> no one else jumped in. I might try reposting that under its own
>> >> >> thread. Or probably not; a completely new one would work better.
>>
>> >> >A really strong first line could get the ball rolling... I just
>> >> >noticed, or thought about, how many of the folks who contributed to
>> >> >this poem have left the newsgroup already.
>>
>> >> How do you know this?
>>
>> >I know a few of them personally, but why do you care?
>>
>> Didn't you post that they left because you thought people would care?
>
>No, I was thinking that without most of the poets who worked on this
>poem last spring, there may not be much participation in a new one...
>for instance, will you contribute?
If it's a good effort in my opinion, sure.
Karla
George Dance
PS - Whattya think of this as the way of giving the 'collective' its
due -- both here and in "Let's Write a Poem"?
Bearplug
Dale Houstman
>>> Lines by aapc collective
>>> Poem by George Dance
>> i knew that looked familiar.
>>
>> thanks for posting.
>>
>> matt
>
> You wrote LL6-8, probably more.
>
I wrote a sizable portion of that, [in fact, the poem as is is pretty
much my ideas and words] (your original was dismal), and refuse to be
foisted off as part of some imaginary "aapc collective." It was a
passing game, and for you to now post it with no attribution other than
"aapc collective" is repulsive.
dmh
matt
> >>> Lines by aapc collective
> >>> Poem by George Dance
> >> i knew that looked familiar.
>
> >> thanks for posting.
>
> >> matt
>
> > You wrote LL6-8, probably more.
>
> I wrote a sizable portion of that, [in fact, the poem as is is pretty
> much my ideas and words] (your original was dismal), and refuse to be
> foisted off as part of some imaginary "aapc collective." It was a
> passing game, and for you to now post it with no attribution other than
> "aapc collective" is repulsive.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
well then instead of aapc collective, maybe george
should have put aapc collective under the careful care
and heartfelt consideration of heart & soul master
poet dale m. houstman..?
i mean, let's face it...look at the thing...it's a heart & soul
journal entry.
matt
George Dance
> >>> Lines by aapc collective
> >>> Poem by George Dance
> >> i knew that looked familiar.
>
> >> thanks for posting.
>
> >> matt
>
> > You wrote LL6-8, probably more.
>
> I wrote a sizable portion of that, [in fact, the poem as is is pretty
> much my ideas and words]
Six lines you contributed were used (broken into 12 here).
> (your original was dismal), and refuse to be
> foisted off as part of some imaginary "aapc collective." It was a
> passing game, and for you to now post it with no attribution other than
> "aapc collective" is repulsive.
> dmh
What do you want? Your own attribution line? A byline? Co-authorship?
Sole authorship? What?
George Dance
Dale did contribute lines, so he's a stakeholder; and if he disagrees,
then I can't publish it. It's not just a simple matter of cutting his
lines; that would mean having to write a new ending, which would
defeat the whole purpose.
Frankly, I expected him to be the one giving me problems with this,
hence the reason for vetting it: I'd rather have him bitching here,
and claiming to have "pretty much" written the poem himself, than
having him bother his "lawyer friends" after it's been published
elsewhere.
Karla
George, what does this mean:
> > >>> Lines by aapc collective
> > >>> Poem by George Dance
Why isn't the aapc collective the authors of the poem? Why "Poem by
George Dance"?
Will Dockery
> On Aug 10, 5:54 am, matt wrote:
> > On Aug 9, 10:41 pm, Dale Houstman wrote:
Heh... since you cut all of mine except for the "gunboat" line, I'll
let you and the rest of the collective hash it out. In my version,
which became "She Sleeps Tight", I changed the gunboat to a steamboat,
anyhow:
George Dance
The 'collective' (which was six people who participated in the thread)
contributed lines; the result of their effort was a bunch of lines,
not the above. The above was a result of arranging, (in some, not all,
cases) rewriting, rebreaking,
and repunctuating them.
At the time, the idea was suggested (to no dissent) that anyone who
contributed was free to take them and write their own poem. However,
after I'd finished this I posted it as "by the aapc collective," under
the title "one" (which had also been suggested).
Why call it my poem? Well, maybe it is; that depends on whether I
created a "new work" or not.
Will Dockery
> On Aug 10, 1:18 pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> George Dance wrote:
> >> On Aug 9, 10:39 am, matt <qoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
Seems like I've seen something like this discussed here before... or
so it seems.
--
"She Sleeps Tight" by Will Dockery & Brian Mallard (video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
Karla
Although I was aware of it while people were contributing, I didn't
read every post. It just looks weird that way. So I asked. I'd think
"poetry lines contributed by ___, ___, ___ etc. and edited by George
Dance" is more accurate. Not that y'all care about what I think of
your group effort's attribution.
George Dance
Yes, I did; and even changed the wording ("approach" for "come in"). I
originally had the "sweet jennifer at riverbend" line, too, but I cut
that. Well, you created your own version ...
I think "watching gunboats approach" is a great line. Not only does it
work with 'anchored' -- the gunboats are approaching, while the other
boats (the workers) can't get away, but also (while it's probably a
purely personal association) the line always makes me think of the
story in Neil Young's "Powderfinger."
matt
>
> - Show quoted text -
you might consider sending a copy to all involved and
asking their opinion.
it's possible that houstman feels violated because he's left
out of the final draft. i don't believe this was the final draft.
anyway, i really don't know why he would care...this poem
doesn't look like anything he would want his name attached
to. however, he did start the group off with the opening
line and he did make his share if contributions.
one thing people must remember is that this group effort
was done within a few days of learning of hammes' demise.
it's not a small thing to mention considering it hasn't been
done since, and everything went to shit shortly thereafter.
matt
George Dance
Yes, it's the same issue, but with a different scenario.
Philosophers like to reason by 'scenarios' - elaborate stories, some
of them quite far-fetched, that concretize abstract concepts,
theories, and beliefs.
I think we can use real-life examples of these as scenarios, and reach
conclusions about the abstract ideas from discussing the particulars
of each case.
BTW, here's a classic philosophical scenario (written in my own words)
that concretizes the abstract question, "Is it wrong (morally
impermissible) to take an innocent person's life":
You're with a group of miners, when there's an explosion that releases
a poison gas; fortunately, you detect it, and rush back to the
entrance to the mine. Unfortunately, the first miner who tries to
leave is a grossly obese person who gets stuck in the entrance and
can't move. (Never mind, how that miner got into the cave in the first
place! For whatever reason, he's stuck and can't move now.)
You all try to pull him in or push him out, to no avail. You can't
budge him; and if you don't budge him in 5 minutes, the gas will reach
you and you'll all die (except for him, as his head's outside).
Someone points out that he has a stick of TNT; if you ram it up the
fat miner and light it, you can blow him up, which will clear the
entrance and you'll all live. Of course that will kill him. If you
don't blow him up, you'll all be killed.
Is if OK to blow him up?
George Dance
Well, not one line in there is in the form it was contributed; (though
for most of them that only means they were broken in two and had the
punctuation stripped). So I don't know if that's accurate, either.
> Not that y'all care about what I think of
> your group effort's attribution.
Not true at all; of course I care what you think of this. I told you,
in another thread, that I'd be posting it for you to look at and
comment.
<paste>
[Karla:]
> You've done a good job of intermingling the two pieces, and you are
> correct, he followed Alacrity's line order. However, comparing even
> small sections of the poem, it's clear that Dale's poem is a new work,
> different theme, different imagery, etc.
That's a moot question in the case of Dale's poem, as he's apparently
removed the only version he's published, and I doubt he'll be
publishing it anywhere else. It's an interesting question, though, and
worth discussing if it could only be disentangled from discussion of
the personalities involved.
[George]
I have a thought: I have a poem in which I didn't write any of the
lines; and which I do have ideas of publishing elsewhere; so it isn't
necessarily moot. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts -- and
Will's, and Dale's, and anyone else who wants to read it -- on whether
it's an original work or not.
So I'll go do that right now.
</up>
Stuart Leichter
>
> BTW, here's a classic philosophical scenario (written in my own words)
> that concretizes the abstract question, "Is it wrong (morally
> impermissible) to take an innocent person's life":
Why do you call that an abstract question? Never mind.
Even without the concretizing scenario, I would say it's always wrong,
if by wrong it's meant there will be bad consequences. The converse,
with apologies to Orwell's P&TEL, It is never right to take an
innocent life somehow sounds sounder.
>
> You're with a group of miners, when there's an explosion that releases
> a poison gas; fortunately, you detect it, and rush back to the
> entrance to the mine. Unfortunately, the first miner who tries to
> leave is a grossly obese person who gets stuck in the entrance and
> can't move. (Never mind, how that miner got into the cave in the first
> place! For whatever reason, he's stuck and can't move now.)
>
> You all try to pull him in or push him out, to no avail. You can't
> budge him; and if you don't budge him in 5 minutes, the gas will reach
> you and you'll all die (except for him, as his head's outside).
> Someone points out that he has a stick of TNT; if you ram it up the
> fat miner and light it, you can blow him up, which will clear the
> entrance and you'll all live. Of course that will kill him. If you
> don't blow him up, you'll all be killed.
>
> Is if OK to blow him up?
The real puzzles let everyone in on it, in this case even the
blockhead. It's a no-brainer. The blockhead knows he will die no
matter what readers at aapc think about it, since they aren't about to
die or live like the miners. So the blockhead might as well tell the
other guys to blow his ass to kingdom come. No guilt, no moral issues.
Everyone wins if you let everyone's vote mean something.
--
George Dance
> On Aug 10, 8:54 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > BTW, here's a classic philosophical scenario (written in my own words)
> > that concretizes the abstract question, "Is it wrong (morally
> > impermissible) to take an innocent person's life":
>
> Why do you call that an abstract question? Never mind.
>
Of course I'll mind. It's an abstract question because it's a question
about an idea, about a set of pure abstractions -- permissibility,
persons, life, etc.
> Even without the concretizing scenario, I would say it's always wrong,
> if by wrong it's meant there will be bad consequences. The converse,
> with apologies to Orwell's P&TEL, It is never right to take an
> innocent life somehow sounds sounder.
>
Problem with that word "right" is it can mean two different things:
permissible (OK to do or not do) or obligatory (as in "Do the right
thing". So it's unclear what you mean: I think you're saying it's
never OK to take an innocent life, but you might be saying it's OK to
do (but also OK if you don't).
George Dance
So far three of the six contrbutors have weighed in. I could send
emails to the others and tell them that there is a discussion on
AAPC.
I'd prefer it gets discussed on the group. I always hope something
good will come of these discussions; some firm conclusions or
agreements, something worth archiving in order to find later.
> it's possible that houstman feels violated because he's left
> out of the final draft. i don't believe this was the final draft.
>
it was the "final" I wrote. Will wrote a different "final", which
altered things considerably more.
> anyway, i really don't know why he would care...this poem
> doesn't look like anything he would want his name attached
> to. however, he did start the group off with the opening
> line and he did make his share if contributions.
>
> one thing people must remember is that this group effort
> was done within a few days of learning of hammes' demise.
> it's not a small thing to mention considering it hasn't been
> done since, and everything went to shit shortly thereafter.
>
I always think of those two months -- Jan. and Feb. 09 -- as AAPC's
"Prague Spring."
Karla
wrote:
Did the lines used from each contributor come from each contributor's poem? I
had thought someone started with a line and others added to it.
>> Not that y'all care about what I think of
>> your group effort's attribution.
>
>Not true at all; of course I care what you think of this. I told you,
>in another thread, that I'd be posting it for you to look at and
>comment.
I didn't see that.
><paste>
>[Karla:]
>> You've done a good job of intermingling the two pieces, and you are
>> correct, he followed Alacrity's line order. However, comparing even
>> small sections of the poem, it's clear that Dale's poem is a new work,
>> different theme, different imagery, etc.
>
>That's a moot question in the case of Dale's poem, as he's apparently
>removed the only version he's published, and I doubt he'll be
>publishing it anywhere else. It's an interesting question, though, and
>worth discussing if it could only be disentangled from discussion of
>the personalities involved.
I think Google Groups must be acting up for you. Dale's poem is still there.
arqdnVAw1s-9vj7U...@skypoint.com
If that doesn't work, put the Mercury Switches in date order; Dale's post and
poem is found at #21.
>[George]
>I have a thought: I have a poem in which I didn't write any of the
>lines; and which I do have ideas of publishing elsewhere; so it isn't
>necessarily moot. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts -- and
>Will's, and Dale's, and anyone else who wants to read it -- on whether
>it's an original work or not.
>
>So I'll go do that right now.
></up>
I don't like the poem at all which leaves me with no motivation to figure out my
opinion on the originality of it. Perhaps someone else will comment though, or
down the line, I'll feel like it.
Karla
Barbara's Cat
> The Workers do not Dream
[ a lot of fowl noise snipped ]
> [...] after it's been published elsewhere.
Published? Seriously, you cannot be serious.
It isn't worth the minute cost of the energy
it took to display it on a computer's monitor
the first time, so why waste valuable energy
displaying it a second time? Or worse even,
using precious paper and ink reproducing it?
"Think Green" and help restore the earth's
health. Don't (re)produce needless garbage.
--
Cm~
"Better a cruel truth than
a comfortable delusion."
- Edward Abbey
George Dance
Barbara's Cat wrote:
snip
Thanks for your comments. I didn't plan to snip them, but then I read
your final sentence:
>
> "Think Green" and help restore the earth's
> health. Don't (re)produce needless garbage.
>
So what else could I do?
Will Dockery
I wonder how easy it would be to locate that... afterwards I kept
rewriting it until it evolved into something completely different by
the time I used it, the only word from the poem that remained was
"steamboat".
If they come up from the depths of the archives easily enough, I'll
probably post some of that here.
> > anyway, i really don't know why he would care...this poem
> > doesn't look like anything he would want his name attached
> > to. however, he did start the group off with the opening
> > line and he did make his share if contributions.
>
> > one thing people must remember is that this group effort
> > was done within a few days of learning of hammes' demise.
> > it's not a small thing to mention considering it hasn't been
> > done since, and everything went to shit shortly thereafter.
>
> I always think of those two months -- Jan. and Feb. 09 -- as AAPC's
> "Prague Spring."
What exactly was happening last spring that was extraordinary? I know
that the death of Hammes did cause a sense of emptyness, and I began
my "vacation" around that time, so I wasn't very aware of some events
here, I suppose?
--
"Corning Town" - Words & Vocal by Will Dockery Music & Guitar by Brian
Mallard
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njes_L9ZDgQ
Barbara's Cat
> Barbara's Cat wrote:
>
> snip
Truth hurts, eh, Goober?
Will Dockery
Yes, I basically kept the character of Julie and sent her through some
small adventures on the riverbend and beyond, on a steamboat rather
than a gunboat, or something like that.
--
Karla
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
> If that doesn't work, put the Mercury Switches in date order; Dale's post and
> poem is found at #21.
>
> >[George]
> >I have a thought: I have a poem in which I didn't write any of the
> >lines; and which I do have ideas of publishing elsewhere; so it isn't
> >necessarily moot. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts -- and
> >Will's, and Dale's, and anyone else who wants to read it -- on whether
> >it's an original work or not.
>
> >So I'll go do that right now.
> ></up>
>
> I don't like the poem at all which leaves me with no motivation to figure out my
> opinion on the originality of it. Perhaps someone else will comment though, or
> down the line, I'll feel like it.
Well, it's a new day, and a woman can change her mind - so here are
some thoughts and back-up materials for discussion. I looked at the
original thread started by Mark on January 11, 2009, called "Let's
write a poem." It's a fairly short thread. I dumped the various
posters contributions into a Word document, omitting the non-
contribution comments. I then PDF'd the document and uploaded it to
Google documents. Now, this part may not work - never used Google
Documents before. I'm able to 'share' the PDF supposedly but it's
unclear if that's only via email or other people who are signed into
Google. Here's the link:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1lYHvcCFufaYTdhNGEyZDctOWQxNS00NjQ0LTk5N2MtYjYwZDE4MmRhZWY1
Next, I copied all the contributions except for Dockery's which, in my
opinion, is a new work, and pasted the contributions in order into a
new Word document. Then I saved George's recent post of the poem into
a Word document. I used a black line program to compare 1) the
original contributions to 2) George's recent post of the poem. I saved
the comparison, created a PDF of it, and uploaded the PDF to Google
documents. You can (hopefully) view it here:
http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1lYHvcCFufaMjk0NmRhMGItYzdiMS00NDRlLWE1ZjgtM2ViYjVkZmZkMWU2&hl=en
For anyone unfamiliar with blacklining, the blue font would seem to
indicate new additions, and the red text and cross-outs. However, a
couple of the red text cross-outs have been moved by George, I assume,
to earlier in the poem:
- they will not guage themselves by their
The line "watching gunboats approach", which shows as blue text, comes
from Dockery's poem, which I chose not to black line as there's
nothing else from Dockery's in this piece and it wouldn't add much to
the analysis.
George has changed punctuation, case, re-ordered a couple of lines,
added a couple of new words and omitted a couple of words. It seems,
but I could be wrong, that George's substantive poetic contribution to
the text of the poem are the lines, "a eulogy of love" and "death's
sweet dream." If those lines are in the thread somewhere else, I
missed them.
My own opinion, based on the above, is that Mark, Dale, z, msifg, Paul
Heslop, Manwolf and Dockery wrote the poem and that George edited it.
Of course, George may gain (and has, in some cases) permission to
credit himself for writing it all. That's something else. What the
comparison shows is there's very little change to original writers'
contributions, and that they seem to have agreed and/or not objected
to Dockery's derivative work or Mark and George's editing of the work,
which may be a derivative. I don't know - still thinking on that.
Here's a link to the original thread.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/ce1878ae34cca216
If this thread broke off or was restarted somewhere else back then, I
didn't see it.
Karla
Will Dockery
>
> Next, I copied all the contributions except for Dockery's which, in my
> opinion, is a new work, and pasted the contributions in order into a
> new Word document. Then I saved George's recent post of the poem into
> a Word document. I used a black line program to compare 1) the
> original contributions to 2) George's recent post of the poem. I saved
> the comparison, created a PDF of it, and uploaded the PDF to Google
>
> For anyone unfamiliar with blacklining, the blue font would seem to
> indicate new additions, and the red text and cross-outs. However, a
> couple of the red text cross-outs have been moved by George, I assume,
> to earlier in the poem:
> - they will not guage themselves by their
>
> The line "watching gunboats approach", which shows as blue text, comes
> from Dockery's poem, which I chose not to black line as there's
> nothing else from Dockery's in this piece and it wouldn't add much to
> the analysis.
Yes, and since being reminded of it, I'm still considering it a "work-
in-progress". Here's what I have of it as of today:
Red Lipped Stranger
Her creep crawls
the narrow stairway
of the Candlelight Motel
to watch for her
from a window.
Rethinking
his infatuation
but clinging
to his vision of her
as the red lipped stranger.
Downstairs
the desk clerk's cat
slithers through
the service entrance.
The vampirate
on a motorbike
passes below
to the westbound bridge
werewolf on her back.
Jennifer at riverbend
watches gunboats
smacks her foot
on the bright red clay.
Jennifer gives good lyric
she wrote this poem
she's no bum.
But she's not there
on the other side
of the greenish wall.
Through a three-inch-wall
he hears
bedsprings rattle
rustle of dry-hump,
some guy's mumbles.
Hears the fat blonde waitress
whip it in bondage
the sounds
lull him to sleep.
The hand of Uncle Sugar
still taking notes
as a new standard bearer
hands out trophies
to the winners.
His trillion dollar gash
flakes from the bone
as gravity tears
a pound of dust.
Clings to a picture book
the missing part of himself
as if perpetually
anchored
to his invisible erection.
At Lucky Seven Lounge
she tries
not to reveal herself
but she stubbornly clutches
her empty shoes.
Something
seems missing
in the broad daylight
when the details
are displayed.
All that remains are
her flat black hat
her oversized lantern
her broken laptop.
No poor boy on the street
can speak of her
or the island on the river.
Or about her return...
her resurrection.
-Will Dockery
Dale Houstman
>
> My own opinion, based on the above, is that Mark, Dale, z, msifg, Paul
> Heslop, Manwolf and Dockery wrote the poem and that George edited it.
> Of course, George may gain (and has, in some cases) permission to
> credit himself for writing it all. That's something else.
I don't care if George wants the damn thing: at best it's mediocre. My
involvement was that I wrote a line or two then watched it "develop" -
the result was so egregiously awful (beyond any great redemption it
seems) that I revisited it and added new lines and changed quite a bit
of it. For better or - as it seems - worse, the result George has posted
as being mainly his is - actually - mainly mine, with very little
change, although why I would want to claim it is a question to be
wrestled with. That said, George is welcome to it - it stinks. I could
rewrite it once more and (probably) achieve something not totally bad,
but it really isn't worth my effort.
dmh
Karla
Before I got busy at work, I thought about changing text color for
each writer - not sure how that blacklines out though. I agree, it's
pretty awful. It reads like a college kid's version of what she thinks
high falutin' poetry should sound like. I hate the line breaks too.
Sadly, I know some blog or zine will publish it.
Karla
Dale Houstman
That's the spreading "democratization" of publishing - finally anyone
can get anything published. Just another little cultural death to join
the hundreds of smaller and larger ones. Ah well.
If George does get that horrid patch-work crap published, he had better
leave my name off it. Talk about something worth a lawsuit...
dmh
Will Dockery
The death of Dennis M. Hammes has had quite an effect on all of us
here on the newsgroups, even the new ones who never knew of old Uncle
Hammy. And try as they might, none of the dullards here can match his
witty and offensive style... reminds me of the quote from Robert
Mitchum I saw this morning:
"You know what the average Robert Mitchum fan is? He's full of warts
and dandruff and he's probably got a hernia too, but he sees me up
there on the screen and he thinks, if that bum can make it, I can be
president..." -Robert Mitchum
--
Rik Roots
<snip>
> That's the spreading "democratization" of publishing - finally anyone
> can get anything published. Just another little cultural death to join
> the hundreds of smaller and larger ones. Ah well.
>
<snip>
Oh, I don't know. I like the democratisation of publishing. Nowt wrong
with a bit of DIY, and you don't have to kowtow to the cultural authorities.
Course, nobody reads the results, but nobody read the results of old
school poetry publishing.
Next up: eBooks!
> dmh
Rik, knee deep.
George Dance
> On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
Probably because you read the first paragraph below, went off to
search for and, found Dale's post, came back, wrote a reply, and sent
-- and never got to the third.
> ><paste>
> >[Karla:]
> >> You've done a good job of intermingling the two pieces, and you are
> >> correct, he followed Alacrity's line order. However, comparing even
> >> small sections of the poem, it's clear that Dale's poem is a new work,
> >> different theme, different imagery, etc.
>
> >That's a moot question in the case of Dale's poem, as he's apparently
> >removed the only version he's published, and I doubt he'll be
> >publishing it anywhere else. It's an interesting question, though, and
> >worth discussing if it could only be disentangled from discussion of
> >the personalities involved.
>
> I think Google Groups must be acting up for you. Dale's poem is still there.
> arqdnVAw1s-9vj7UnZ2dnUVZ_tfin...@skypoint.com
> If that doesn't work, put the Mercury Switches in date order; Dale's post and
> poem is found at #21.
>
Oh, sorry. You told me to try 'sort by date' and I found it; right at
#21. Still can't find it using sort by reply, though Will's reply to
it is visible (which is why I thought it was removed). Will must have
tacked his reply onto a different message.
Dale Houstman
> Dale Houstman wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> That's the spreading "democratization" of publishing - finally anyone
>> can get anything published. Just another little cultural death to join
>> the hundreds of smaller and larger ones. Ah well.
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> Oh, I don't know. I like the democratisation of publishing. Nowt wrong
> with a bit of DIY, and you don't have to kowtow to the cultural
> authorities.
>
mediocre and bad and horribly bad work over good work, which has
probably always been true to a degree. I know there's no use fighting
this technological "advance" and I've got absolutely nothing against
DIY, but it isn't as if poetry (unlike music and filmmaking) ever
demanded an expensive tech budget, so the "improvement" is mainly in
access to the public's attention, not in access to the tools of
creation, so writing is somewhat a different case here. A person - no
matter how poor - could always write a poem. It doesn't bother me all
that much, but it does result in corrupted and dilute critical prowess,
and - frankly - I found the "cultural authorities" opinions to be much
better than the general run of the "great unwashed." I don;t really see
how a vast multiplication of trash poetry and trash criticism is good
for a civilization, unless one really prefers quantity over quality.
dmh
Karla
I doubt it. Most likely, I just missed the other thread asking me to
see this thread. Did you mention me by name? Also, I did see another
mention in one of these threads that Dale must have deleted his poem,
Mercury Mates With Clocks, and it didn't sound like Dale, so the other
time it was mentioned, I looked for myself, but didn't post. Seeing it
mentioned again, I repeated the exercise & posted it for you.
Did you jump to this part and miss my question about the group poem
above?
> > ><paste>
> > >[Karla:]
> > >> You've done a good job of intermingling the two pieces, and you are
> > >> correct, he followed Alacrity's line order. However, comparing even
> > >> small sections of the poem, it's clear that Dale's poem is a new work,
> > >> different theme, different imagery, etc.
>
> > >That's a moot question in the case of Dale's poem, as he's apparently
> > >removed the only version he's published, and I doubt he'll be
> > >publishing it anywhere else. It's an interesting question, though, and
> > >worth discussing if it could only be disentangled from discussion of
> > >the personalities involved.
>
> > I think Google Groups must be acting up for you. Dale's poem is still there.
> > arqdnVAw1s-9vj7UnZ2dnUVZ_tfin...@skypoint.com
> > If that doesn't work, put the Mercury Switches in date order; Dale's post and
> > poem is found at #21.
>
> Oh, sorry. You told me to try 'sort by date' and I found it; right at
> #21. Still can't find it using sort by reply, though Will's reply to
> it is visible (which is why I thought it was removed). Will must have
> tacked his reply onto a different message.
Yesterday, Google Groups searching was terrible - I was looking for
the history of "The Workers Do Not Dream", searching for the old
thread, "Let's write a poem", using key words from the poem posted
here. The earlier thread by Mark didn't pop up as a search result when
I searched "workers do not dream" as a phrase in aapc as a group. When
I tried rap, it popped up immediately, which makes no sense since it
appears to be posted to aapc first. Google Groups archiving is a mess.
Karla
I'm curious - what zines, magazines, journals do you read regularly
for poetry (anyone)?
I read The New Yorker and Poetry. Sometimes, I read Poetry Daily but
not lately. I'd thought of subscribing to the Atlantic again, but I'm
pissed that they don't publish short stories anymore. I should look at
Paris Review or Ploughshares - haven't in awhile.
George Dance
>
Wow, I'm impressed. My mozilla isn't freezing up on pdf's anymore.
Your work is also impressive. I see only one important correction; z's
contribution was the single word 'one' which I took as a title, rather
than Dale's which i used as the first 2 lines instead; Mark came up
with "inexplicably ... exploitation".
> Next, I copied all the contributions except for Dockery's which, in my
> opinion, is a new work, and pasted the contributions in order into a
> new Word document. Then I saved George's recent post of the poem into
> a Word document. I used a black line program to compare 1) the
> original contributions to 2) George's recent post of the poem. I saved
> the comparison, created a PDF of it, and uploaded the PDF to Google
> documents. You can (hopefully) view it here:http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B1lYHvcCFufaMjk0NmRhMGItYzdiMS00N...
>
> For anyone unfamiliar with blacklining, the blue font would seem to
> indicate new additions, and the red text and cross-outs. However, a
> couple of the red text cross-outs have been moved by George, I assume,
> to earlier in the poem:
> - they will not guage themselves by their
Yeah. I changed MW's 'lost feet' to just 'loss', to work better with
his earlier line about their 'severed hands'.
>
> The line "watching gunboats approach", which shows as blue text, comes
> from Dockery's poem, which I chose not to black line as there's
> nothing else from Dockery's in this piece and it wouldn't add much to
> the analysis.
>
> George has changed punctuation, case, re-ordered a couple of lines,
> added a couple of new words and omitted a couple of words. It seems,
> but I could be wrong, that George's substantive poetic contribution to
> the text of the poem are the lines, "a eulogy of love" and "death's
> sweet dream." If those lines are in the thread somewhere else, I
> missed them.
Where they came from was: matt reposted the poem in a new thread under
the title, "The workers.. (group effort)"
and mark suggested those lines plus 'their renunciation' as an ending.
I didn't like them there -- nothing there but abstractions -- I
thought they worked best interspersedamong Dale's image flow at the
end.
>
> My own opinion, based on the above, is that Mark, Dale, z, msifg, Paul
> Heslop, Manwolf and Dockery wrote the poem and that George edited it.
> Of course, George may gain (and has, in some cases) permission to
> credit himself for writing it all. That's something else.
I wouldn't want to get that permission unless I thought I had written
it, and (looking it over) I'd have to agree with your assessment that
i only edited it. I'm looking at the two points you mentioned in the
earlier thread: theme and imagery. both thematically and in imagery,
there's no difference between the original post here and the earlier
lines in sequence. I think I should be listed as the editor of this.
That leaves a small problem of how the authors' credit should read,
but i'll let them work that out; I'm not interested if there's none
for me.
What I'd like to do is to move on to an example in between the two
we've looked at now -- one which resulted in a new work, one which
didn't -- and see where it fits. You may get interested in that like
you did here. I won't paste it in as I just posted it in June, but
I'll give you the thread title "Let's write a poem (two)" and a google
link to the first message in that thread:
http://groups.google.ca/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/msg/f788ae16ad512991?hl=en
What the
> comparison shows is there's very little change to original writers'
> contributions, and that they seem to have agreed and/or not objected
> to Dockery's derivative work or Mark and George's editing of the work,
> which may be a derivative. I don't know - still thinking on ...
>
> read more »
oops; I should've read the whole thing before replying. Oh, well, it
looks clear to me I was just the editor for this one.
Dale Houstman
I must admit that I mainly dig into my rather large library of "old
people" for my poetic thrills, but I did delve into Language Poets
extensively when they emerged (since I have things in common with them),
and read a number of publications that published such work. Of late, not
so much. I do read the poems in The New Yorker, but find a lot of that
to be rather cold "suburban" exercises: John Ashbery but without the
startling linguistic talent. Other than that, I "trawl" for little
surprises. As in the visual arts, I now am more interested in "outsider"
work: the poetry of "naives," children, and the "mad".
dmh
Dale Houstman
> end of the literary era - take this down.� -- Philip Roth, Exit Ghost.
This might be true. I probably wouldn't know. As I said, I find my
literary treats on the fringes nowadays. The general run of the arts,
and the magazines that publish them, seem inhabited by either the madly
incompetent, or the aggravatingly professional. Neither promotes the
pleasure response in me.
dmh
Rik Roots
not the quantity of the product that decides what gets read, but rather
the quality of the gatekeepers who direct people to what they consider
to be the good stuff.
There used to be two broad sets of gatekeepers: those that controlled
access to the printing presses; and those that sifted through the stuff
being churned out and chose which stuff to praise/promote over the rest.
Your average punter's choices about what to read used to be influence by
both - what's available and what's fashionable (and of course there were
many arguments between gangs of gatekeepers about what sorts of poems
were worthy of the punter's attention).
Technology's affecting the access gatekeepers, but it's also allowing
the critics and reviewers access to a wider audience without impacting
on their ability to choose which stuff to celebrate and promote. Of
course, any inane blogger can set themselves up as a critic/reviewer,
but it's a lot easier nowadays to call out the ones that talk shite.
As for me, I've got my 'living book' thingy. I don't see much difference
between an old-timer printing and binding their books and me hand coding
my website ... except the book will probably last longer than my
website, while my website will probably be seen by more people than the
book in any given year.
Oh, and maybe while I refuse to kowtow to the cultural authorities, the
old timer might go as far as spitting at them and pissing in their
herbal tea. We're all outsiders really ... some of us are just a bit
more batshit loco than others.
> dmh
Rik
Karla
One of the last TNY I read contained an annoying poem by C.K.
Williams. Before that, a poem called "Q" by Sharon Olds which was
okay. I read TNY hoping for the poem that takes my breath away like it
did in the eighties when I read Gjertrud Schnackenberg for the first
time. It happens now & then.
Just looked at the online Atlantic which includes a poem by poet
laureate, Kay Ryan. She hasn't caught on with me yet, but I keep
trying. Her poems seem like jokes, or maybe I'm too serious.
Ya, thank God for the old people.
Karla
Karla
> > > end of the literary era - take this down.” -- Philip Roth, Exit Ghost.
>
> > This might be true. I probably wouldn't know. As I said, I find my
> > literary treats on the fringes nowadays.
>
>
> I’m rereading Daphne Dumaurier’s short stories and have been watching
> Shakespeare: The Animated Tales and Helen Mirren at the BBC (so far
> have seen The Changeling and thought it was wonderful). Not to say
> that any of these are on the fringes but they are captivating.
You reminded me that I've been meaning to ask you to recommend a good
book of JCO's short stories. I've only read a story here or there
anthologized. Do you have a favorite book of short stories by her?
> In looking for info on Jacobean tragedy I found reference to a book of
> poetry, and I think other writing as well, by 17th c. inmates of
> Bedlam. Now I can’t find that info but will pass it on if I do.
>
> > The general run of the arts,
> > and the magazines that publish them, seem inhabited by either the madly
> > incompetent, or the aggravatingly professional. Neither promotes the
> > pleasure response in me.
>
> I don’t read any arts magazines. I used to read Dance Magazine and
> Paris Review on occasion.
I doubt that this would be my cup of tea, but you and Dale might like
the forthcoming (strange!) novel by E.L. Doctorow, entitled Homer &
Langley: A Novel
""Following the panoramic scope of The March (2005), Doctorow creates
a microcosmic and mythic tale of compulsion, alienation, and dark
metamorphosis inspired by the famously eccentric Collyer brothers of
New York City. Born to wealth in the 1880s, Homer and Langley became
recluses and hoarders barricaded inside their Fifth Avenue brownstone,
which was crammed with more than 100 tons of moldering junk. Altering
facts and tinkering with time, Doctorow has Homer, who is blind,
narrate with deadpan humor and spellbinding precision. Homer is
devoted to music, and his brother is devoted to him, but Langley,
offkilter after a gas attack in the Great War, is beyond strange. He
rebuilds a Model T in the dining room, collects everything from pianos
to army surplus, and amasses newspapers to assemble a “forevermore”
edition, Doctorow’s sly enactment of the fall of print and the rise of
the Internet, a realm as chaotic and trash-filled as the Collyer
mansion. Over the decades, people come and go––lovers, a gangster, a
jazz musician, a flock of hippies, but finally Homer and Langley are
irrevocably alone, prisoners in their fortress of rubbish, trapped in
their warped form of brotherly love. Wizardly Doctorow presents an
ingenious, haunting odyssey that unfolds within a labyrinth built out
of the detritus of war and excess—Booklist, starred review"
It may be that the movie "Dead Ringers" has soured me on 'brother'
stories. There's a hint of that madness in ELD's new book.
Karla
Barbara's Cat
> I'm curious - what zines, magazines, journals do you read regularly
> for poetry (anyone)?
>
> I read The New Yorker and Poetry. Sometimes, I read Poetry Daily but
> not lately. I'd thought of subscribing to the Atlantic again, but I'm
> pissed that they don't publish short stories anymore. I should look at
> Paris Review or Ploughshares - haven't in awhile.
The magazines and journals I usually read are not poetry
related or even general interest types, instead, the ones
I read are related to how I put salt in my pouch.
But hey, I do read and listen to American Public Media's
newsletter /The Writer's Almanac with Garrison Keillor/,
which I receive daily via e-mail. You can find it at
http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/
If you are not a subscriber, I recommend you become one.
Otherwise most all of my poetry intake comes from books.
--
Cm~
"Be well, do good work, and keep in touch.�"
- Garrison Keillor
Dale Houstman
Well, I rarely find these things in "bunches" but catch them as they
flutter by in this or that publication. A few of the examples I gathered
for a collection of my favorite work I have been assembling for quite
some time now (entitled "I Didn't Do It!") said they came from a book
called "In The Realms of the Unreal" which I haven't tracked down
locally yet. The "mad"? here's an example from my notebook...
....................................
The Queen�s Foreboding: Intimations of Dementia / Gertrud�s Prebirth
by Richard Beard
[from IN THE REALMS OF THE UNREAL: �insane� writings]
to let be or to not let be:
the prickly thorn of questing
all�s too numb, dumbly askings
who�s well who ends ill, before
issue of protests, portents and pretends;
�tis not of this world, this whelp
within my womb, knows where to prod
exactly on the tender foreknowledge
of vainglory�s wonderings whamming
witchy woo�s owllike smuttings
besmirched within a belly�s full
wailing already for the dark corridor
of entrance in and exit out, the re-
capitulation, night�s capricious giving-
in to the throne�s dementia and demands
for princely conduct toward an ill-
defined need of hairy whooze and heir-
looms the size of pinpoints beginning
kingdoms-cometo loose this madness
on us all: God or gods befouled
by discordant desires and divine right,
whole destinies determined in the toss
of sickly seed, doubled by doldrums
(fishy and dunmarked) deeded rightly
and practiced nightly until this, now
a weighty waiting-in, thrashing within
an eternal doubt, deeped in a seeping
sac of unborn bones and hair and doom:
which way one turns, the lump is ever there,
and blood shall curdle on this moment�s notice
of what has passed and shall yet pass
and crones know more than mother, while
mother wiles hours, as the obligatory �
pleasure swells fullblown in the destiny
of bloody dust�s insistence on his kingdom.
this alien madness crouching ready inme
kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
my profit no mere lamb, a sham seen slick,
with prophet�s spoonfed ways, an offscene
stab in darkness, demon dancing on the edge
of bubbling tubs, stirring all the mucks
of aging sadness, growing forcefully to know
the mad why�s of this his first decision:
letit go, let it be, Godbless,
and let him know the scrambly fixings
of one mother�s obeying the obstructions
of queenly duty, you shall pay as you�ve
paid me, and kick and roll and moan
and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
.................................
Another from the same source...
................................
Sequels to Lolita
Samuela J. Blank
[from IN THE REALMS OF THE UNREAL: �insane� writings]
Lolita returns
Son of Lolita
Lolita goes to Oz
Lolita and money
Lolita and men
Lolita and nuclear power
Lolita goes �Back to the Future.�
Lolita in steel pyjamas
Lolita almost gets burned at the stake.
Lolita meets the Queen of England.
Lolita �Marries a Millionaire.�
Lolita gets divorced.
Lolita on the couch.
Lolita goes solo.
Lolita burns her bra.
Lolita meets Evita!
Lolita meets Beatles.
Lolita pans her own book.
Lolita sings �Don�t Stand So Close to Me.�*
Lolita joins the C.I.A.
Lolita finds D.N.A.
Lolita joins the Ecumenical Council
Lolitaworld
*This song mentions �That book by Nabokov.�
...........................................
Other than the suggested book, I can't readily call up any specific
collection. But I hope you find the proffered samples of interest...
dmh
Dale Houstman
> On Aug 12, 7:47 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>> Cythera wrote:
>>
>>>> As I said, I find my literary treats on the fringes nowadays.
>>> Any recommendations, particularly of poetry by �naives� and the �mad�?
>> Well, I rarely find these things in "bunches" but catch them as they
>> flutter by in this or that publication. A few of the examples I gathered
>> for a collection of my favorite work I have been assembling for quite
>> some time now (entitled "I Didn't Do It!") said they came from a book
>> called "In The Realms of the Unreal" which I haven't tracked down
>> locally yet.
>>
>> to let be or to not let be:
>> this alien madness crouching ready inme
>> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
>> ...you shall pay as you�ve
>> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
>> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
>> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>>
> material: I�d love to see how he transformed the individual bits. Do
> you understand it all? What is �this his first decision�?
> Looking at Gertrude through this poet�s eyes, she�s ghastly. This poem
> deserves many readings. Thanks for sharing it.
>> ...........................................
>> Other than the suggested book, I can't readily call up any specific
>> collection. But I hope you find the proffered samples of interest...
>>
>> dmh
>>
>
>
>
Well, that's two of us! I rarely buy books nowadays: my wife seems to
have developed an aversion to the endless piles I have already
accumulated! So I tend to try and find what I can in the library. But
this one isn't there it seems.
Glad you enjoyed them.
As to the interpretation of the first: he's schizophrenic so probably
much of it is an exemplar of "personal mythos" although it is obvious he
has either read a lot of Shakespeare, and is now disgorging it in
shards, or he uses the plays as source. In my past I have written poems
while on an hallucinogen, and they are much like this; a sort of
fragmented sense that - no doubt- sounds more coherent to his
sensibility. This "fractured syntax" is a common feature of the type:
both Syd Barrett's lyrics and those of Roky Erickson have much the same
character although restrained somewhat by the demands of rhythm. At any
rate, it appears (beyond the Shakespearean borrowings) to be an
explosion of not-quite-expressible anxieties and a bit of misogyny that
could arise from personal experience (with mother or wife. I assume the
book itself might lend some information on each writer. I've used Google
on Richard Beard, and it seems there is another book on the same
subject: "A Mind Apart - Poems of Melancholy, Madness, and Addiction" by
Mark S. Bauer. If you can find that. That one though appears to have
quite a number of "canon" writers (such as John Berryman) who happen to
deal with the afflictions. A different thing all in all.
dmh
Karla
> Cythera wrote:
> > On Aug 12, 7:47 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> >> Cythera wrote:
>
> >>>> As I said, I find my literary treats on the fringes nowadays.
> >> Well, I rarely find these things in "bunches" but catch them as they
> >> flutter by in this or that publication. A few of the examples I gathered
> >> for a collection of my favorite work I have been assembling for quite
> >> some time now (entitled "I Didn't Do It!") said they came from a book
> >> called "In The Realms of the Unreal" which I haven't tracked down
> >> locally yet.
>
> >> The "mad"? here's an example from my notebook...
>
> >> ....................................
> >> by Richard Beard
> >> [from IN THE REALMS OF THE UNREAL: “insane” writings]
>
> >> to let be or to not let be:
> >> the prickly thorn of questing
> >> who’s well who ends ill, before
> >> issue of protests, portents and pretends;
> >> within my womb, knows where to prod
> >> exactly on the tender foreknowledge
> >> witchy woo’s owllike smuttings
> >> besmirched within a belly’s full
> >> wailing already for the dark corridor
> >> of entrance in and exit out, the re-
> >> in to the throne’s dementia and demands
> >> for princely conduct toward an ill-
> >> defined need of hairy whooze and heir-
> >> looms the size of pinpoints beginning
> >> kingdoms-cometo loose this madness
> >> on us all: God or gods befouled
> >> by discordant desires and divine right,
> >> whole destinies determined in the toss
> >> of sickly seed, doubled by doldrums
> >> (fishy and dunmarked) deeded rightly
> >> and practiced nightly until this, now
> >> a weighty waiting-in, thrashing within
> >> an eternal doubt, deeped in a seeping
> >> sac of unborn bones and hair and doom:
> >> which way one turns, the lump is ever there,
> >> of what has passed and shall yet pass
> >> and crones know more than mother, while
> >> pleasure swells fullblown in the destiny
> >> this alien madness crouching ready inme
> >> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
> >> my profit no mere lamb, a sham seen slick,
> >> stab in darkness, demon dancing on the edge
> >> of bubbling tubs, stirring all the mucks
> >> of aging sadness, growing forcefully to know
> >> letit go, let it be, Godbless,
> >> and let him know the scrambly fixings
> >> of queenly duty, you shall pay as you’ve
> >> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
> >> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
> >> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>
> > Damn:
> >> to let be or to not let be:
> > [...]
> >> this alien madness crouching ready inme
> >> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
> > [...]
> >> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
> >> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
> >> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>
> > The poem is ingenious. I wish I were more familiar with his source
> > you understand it all? What is “this his first decision”?
> > Looking at Gertrude through this poet’s eyes, she’s ghastly. This poem
> > deserves many readings. Thanks for sharing it.
> > .................................
> >> Another from the same source...
>
> >> ................................
> >> Sequels to Lolita
> >> Samuela J. Blank
>
> >> Lolita returns
> >> Son of Lolita
> >> Lolita goes to Oz
> >> Lolita and money
> >> Lolita and men
> >> Lolita and nuclear power
> >> Lolita in steel pyjamas
> >> Lolita almost gets burned at the stake.
> >> Lolita meets the Queen of England.
> >> Lolita gets divorced.
> >> Lolita on the couch.
> >> Lolita goes solo.
> >> Lolita burns her bra.
> >> Lolita meets Evita!
> >> Lolita meets Beatles.
> >> Lolita pans her own book.
> >> Lolita joins the C.I.A.
> >> Lolita finds D.N.A.
> >> Lolita joins the Ecumenical Council
> >> Lolitaworld
>
>
> > This poem is wonderful, too.
> >> ...........................................
> >> Other than the suggested book, I can't readily call up any specific
> >> collection. But I hope you find the proffered samples of interest...
>
> >> dmh
>
>
> Well, that's two of us! I rarely buy books nowadays: my wife seems to
> have developed an aversion to the endless piles I have already
> accumulated! So I tend to try and find what I can in the library. But
> this one isn't there it seems.
>
> Glad you enjoyed them.
>
> As to the interpretation of the first: he's schizophrenic so probably
> much of it is an exemplar of "personal mythos" although it is obvious he
> has either read a lot of Shakespeare, and is now disgorging it in
> shards, or he uses the plays as source. In my past I have written poems
> while on an hallucinogen, and they are much like this; a sort of
> fragmented sense that - no doubt- sounds more coherent to his
> sensibility. This "fractured syntax" is a common feature of the type:
> both Syd Barrett's lyrics and those of Roky Erickson have much the same
> character although restrained somewhat by the demands of rhythm. At any
> rate, it appears (beyond the Shakespearean borrowings) to be an
> explosion of not-quite-expressible anxieties and a bit of misogyny that
> could arise from personal experience (with mother or wife. I assume the
> book itself might lend some information on each writer. I've used Google
> on Richard Beard, and it seems there is another book on the same
> subject: "A Mind Apart - Poems of Melancholy, Madness, and Addiction" by
> Mark S. Bauer. If you can find that. That one though appears to have
> quite a number of "canon" writers (such as John Berryman) who happen to
> deal with the afflictions. A different thing all in all.
>
> dmh
half.com has it for $10.00
http://search.half.ebay.com/A-Mind-Apart_W0QQtgZinfoQQprZ66084036?rvr_id=845333184
automattick
and assholes.
i didn't know that was even possible.
you all love slobbering all over each other...donchya..?
matt
Karla
my god...should we flame & troll instead? Wait! You handle that quite
well all by yourself.
George Dance
> On Aug 12, 10:29 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:> On Aug 10, 11:38 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> <snipping for focus>
>
> > > I didn't see that.
>
> > Probably because you read the first paragraph below, went off to
> > search for and, found Dale's post, came back, wrote a reply, and sent
> > -- and never got to the third.
>
> recent posts both to and in reference to you on the
> alt.arts.POETRY.comments (Michael Cook’s photo thievery) thread?
No, I haven't read that thread recently. The last post in it I read
was the last one I replied to.
> They
> begin at Message 101 Aug 10 7:17 am and are about your allegation that
> I demanded apologies from people.
You've been posting on that for two days? Others as well? Sounds
interesting. I'll take a read when I have time.
> Please follow-up.
I'll read them, if I have time. I have many unread posts in this
thread alone, which I'm giving priority today..
> Thank you in
> advance.
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/browse_thread...
>
> <snipping for focus>
automattick
coming down from mt. olympus to square me off...?
you realize THEY'RE mumbling accusations in your direction
as you do this...don't you..?
you're talking to an "illiterate."
tisk tisk tisk, cassandra...may the snakes clean
your ears better next time.
the best thing to do is ignore your lessers...lest they
bring you down to THEIR level.
hissssssssssss
matt
Dale Houstman
> On Aug 13, 10:08 am, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>> Cythera wrote:
>>
>>> I�m going to buy the book.
>> Well, that's two of us! I rarely buy books nowadays: my wife seems to
>> have developed an aversion to the endless piles I have already
>> accumulated! So I tend to try and find what I can in the library. But
>> this one isn't there it seems.
>>
> Unreal: The Mystery of Henry Darger. Have you seen that?
Oh yes: quite good really, and obviously done with a great amount of
"love of subject" - even the animations (which could have been
disastrous) are quite enjoyable. Darger is an interesting case: one
suspects he might have done some terrible things if he hadn't had art to
contain his desires.
>> Glad you enjoyed them.
>>
> I did very much.
>> As to the interpretation of the first: he's schizophrenic so probably
>> much of it is an exemplar of "personal mythos" although it is obvious he
>> has either read a lot of Shakespeare, and is now disgorging it in
>> shards, or he uses the plays as source.
>>
> What I mean is, what is his Gertrude saying Hamlet�s �first decision�
> is?
Lordy if I know...
dmh
Karla
> Cythera wrote:
> > On Aug 12, 7:47 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> >> Cythera wrote:
>
> >>>> As I said, I find my literary treats on the fringes nowadays.
> >> Well, I rarely find these things in "bunches" but catch them as they
> >> flutter by in this or that publication. A few of the examples I gathered
> >> for a collection of my favorite work I have been assembling for quite
> >> some time now (entitled "I Didn't Do It!") said they came from a book
> >> called "In The Realms of the Unreal" which I haven't tracked down
> >> locally yet.
>
> >> The "mad"? here's an example from my notebook...
>
> >> ....................................
> >> by Richard Beard
> >> [from IN THE REALMS OF THE UNREAL: “insane” writings]
>
> >> to let be or to not let be:
> >> the prickly thorn of questing
> >> who’s well who ends ill, before
> >> issue of protests, portents and pretends;
> >> within my womb, knows where to prod
> >> exactly on the tender foreknowledge
> >> besmirched within a belly’s full
> >> wailing already for the dark corridor
> >> of entrance in and exit out, the re-
> >> in to the throne’s dementia and demands
> >> for princely conduct toward an ill-
> >> defined need of hairy whooze and heir-
> >> looms the size of pinpoints beginning
> >> kingdoms-cometo loose this madness
> >> on us all: God or gods befouled
> >> by discordant desires and divine right,
> >> whole destinies determined in the toss
> >> of sickly seed, doubled by doldrums
> >> (fishy and dunmarked) deeded rightly
> >> and practiced nightly until this, now
> >> a weighty waiting-in, thrashing within
> >> an eternal doubt, deeped in a seeping
> >> sac of unborn bones and hair and doom:
> >> which way one turns, the lump is ever there,
> >> of what has passed and shall yet pass
> >> and crones know more than mother, while
> >> pleasure swells fullblown in the destiny
> >> this alien madness crouching ready inme
> >> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
> >> my profit no mere lamb, a sham seen slick,
> >> stab in darkness, demon dancing on the edge
> >> of bubbling tubs, stirring all the mucks
> >> of aging sadness, growing forcefully to know
> >> letit go, let it be, Godbless,
> >> and let him know the scrambly fixings
> >> of queenly duty, you shall pay as you’ve
> >> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
> >> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
> >> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>
> > Damn:
> >> to let be or to not let be:
> > [...]
> >> this alien madness crouching ready inme
> >> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
> > [...]
> >> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
> >> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
> >> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>
> > The poem is ingenious. I wish I were more familiar with his source
> > you understand it all? What is “this his first decision”?
> > Looking at Gertrude through this poet’s eyes, she’s ghastly. This poem
> > deserves many readings. Thanks for sharing it.
> > .................................
> >> Another from the same source...
>
> >> ................................
> >> Sequels to Lolita
> >> Samuela J. Blank
>
> >> Lolita returns
> >> Son of Lolita
> >> Lolita goes to Oz
> >> Lolita and money
> >> Lolita and men
> >> Lolita and nuclear power
> >> Lolita in steel pyjamas
> >> Lolita almost gets burned at the stake.
> >> Lolita meets the Queen of England.
> >> Lolita gets divorced.
> >> Lolita on the couch.
> >> Lolita goes solo.
> >> Lolita burns her bra.
> >> Lolita meets Evita!
> >> Lolita meets Beatles.
> >> Lolita pans her own book.
> >> Lolita joins the C.I.A.
> >> Lolita finds D.N.A.
> >> Lolita joins the Ecumenical Council
> >> Lolitaworld
>
>
> > This poem is wonderful, too.
> >> ...........................................
> >> Other than the suggested book, I can't readily call up any specific
> >> collection. But I hope you find the proffered samples of interest...
>
> >> dmh
>
>
> Well, that's two of us! I rarely buy books nowadays: my wife seems to
> have developed an aversion to the endless piles I have already
> accumulated! So I tend to try and find what I can in the library. But
> this one isn't there it seems.
>
> Glad you enjoyed them.
>
> As to the interpretation of the first: he's schizophrenic so probably
> much of it is an exemplar of "personal mythos" although it is obvious he
> has either read a lot of Shakespeare, and is now disgorging it in
> shards, or he uses the plays as source. In my past I have written poems
> while on an hallucinogen, and they are much like this; a sort of
> fragmented sense that - no doubt- sounds more coherent to his
> sensibility. This "fractured syntax" is a common feature of the type:
> both Syd Barrett's lyrics and those of Roky Erickson have much the same
> character although restrained somewhat by the demands of rhythm. At any
> rate, it appears (beyond the Shakespearean borrowings) to be an
> explosion of not-quite-expressible anxieties and a bit of misogyny that
> could arise from personal experience (with mother or wife. I assume the
> book itself might lend some information on each writer. I've used Google
> on Richard Beard, and it seems there is another book on the same
> subject: "A Mind Apart - Poems of Melancholy, Madness, and Addiction" by
> Mark S. Bauer. If you can find that. That one though appears to have
> quite a number of "canon" writers (such as John Berryman) who happen to
> deal with the afflictions. A different thing all in all.
>
> dmh
Please share one of your hallucinogenic fragments! Did you achieve any
Coleridge masterpieces, such as Kubla Khan?
Karla
George Dance
Oh, really? Matt does all the trolling and flaming by himself, does
he? First I've heard of that from you.
Karla
No need to respond to this but just look at most of the threads
lately. People conversing about writing; the discussion here about
what we've been reading; discussions elsewhere about Roth. Matt isn't
satisfied with that, has to flame. That's this week. Awhile ago he
complained about trolls. Most of his posts are about what other people
on the group are doing or his feelings about them. It's not unique to
Matt. Just funny coming from the guy who wants it better around here.
Kinda crazy actually.
George Dance
> On Aug 13, 6:15 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 13, 6:37 pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 13, 3:11 pm, automattick <qoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > my god...the entire page is an incestuous mess of liars
> > > > and assholes.
>
> > > > i didn't know that was even possible.
>
> > > > you all love slobbering all over each other...donchya..?
>
> > > > matt
>
> > > my god...should we flame & troll instead? Wait! You handle that quite
> > > well all by yourself.
>
> > Oh, really? Matt does all the trolling and flaming by himself, does
> > he? First I've heard of that from you.
>
> No need to respond to this
Thanks; I appreciate that. I'm gonna be frightfully busy through
Sunday.
Dale Houstman
> On Aug 13, 10:08 am, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>> Cythera wrote:
>>> On Aug 12, 7:47 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>>>> Cythera wrote:
>>>>>> As I said, I find my literary treats on the fringes nowadays.
>>>> Well, I rarely find these things in "bunches" but catch them as they
>>>> flutter by in this or that publication. A few of the examples I gathered
>>>> for a collection of my favorite work I have been assembling for quite
>>>> some time now (entitled "I Didn't Do It!") said they came from a book
>>>> called "In The Realms of the Unreal" which I haven't tracked down
>>>> locally yet.
>>>> The "mad"? here's an example from my notebook...
>>>> ....................................
>>>> by Richard Beard
>>>> [from IN THE REALMS OF THE UNREAL: �insane� writings]
>>>> to let be or to not let be:
>>>> the prickly thorn of questing
>>>> who�s well who ends ill, before
>>>> issue of protests, portents and pretends;
>>>> within my womb, knows where to prod
>>>> exactly on the tender foreknowledge
>>>> besmirched within a belly�s full
>>>> wailing already for the dark corridor
>>>> of entrance in and exit out, the re-
>>>> in to the throne�s dementia and demands
>>>> for princely conduct toward an ill-
>>>> defined need of hairy whooze and heir-
>>>> looms the size of pinpoints beginning
>>>> kingdoms-cometo loose this madness
>>>> on us all: God or gods befouled
>>>> by discordant desires and divine right,
>>>> whole destinies determined in the toss
>>>> of sickly seed, doubled by doldrums
>>>> (fishy and dunmarked) deeded rightly
>>>> and practiced nightly until this, now
>>>> a weighty waiting-in, thrashing within
>>>> an eternal doubt, deeped in a seeping
>>>> sac of unborn bones and hair and doom:
>>>> which way one turns, the lump is ever there,
>>>> of what has passed and shall yet pass
>>>> and crones know more than mother, while
>>>> pleasure swells fullblown in the destiny
>>>> this alien madness crouching ready inme
>>>> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
>>>> my profit no mere lamb, a sham seen slick,
>>>> stab in darkness, demon dancing on the edge
>>>> of bubbling tubs, stirring all the mucks
>>>> of aging sadness, growing forcefully to know
>>>> letit go, let it be, Godbless,
>>>> and let him know the scrambly fixings
>>>> of queenly duty, you shall pay as you�ve
>>>> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
>>>> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
>>>> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>>> Damn:
>>>> to let be or to not let be:
>>> [...]
>>>> this alien madness crouching ready inme
>>>> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
>>> [...]
>>>> paid me, and kick and roll and moan
>>>> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
>>>> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
>>> The poem is ingenious. I wish I were more familiar with his source
>>> Looking at Gertrude through this poet�s eyes, she�s ghastly. This poem
>>> deserves many readings. Thanks for sharing it.
>>> .................................
>>>> Another from the same source...
>>>> ................................
>>>> Sequels to Lolita
>>>> Samuela J. Blank
>>>> Lolita returns
>>>> Son of Lolita
>>>> Lolita goes to Oz
>>>> Lolita and money
>>>> Lolita and men
>>>> Lolita and nuclear power
>>>> Lolita almost gets burned at the stake.
>>>> Lolita meets the Queen of England.
>>>> Lolita gets divorced.
>>>> Lolita on the couch.
>>>> Lolita goes solo.
>>>> Lolita burns her bra.
>>>> Lolita meets Evita!
>>>> Lolita meets Beatles.
>>>> Lolita pans her own book.
>>>> Lolita joins the C.I.A.
>>>> Lolita finds D.N.A.
>>>> Lolita joins the Ecumenical Council
>>>> Lolitaworld
>>>> ...........................................
>>>> Other than the suggested book, I can't readily call up any specific
>>>> collection. But I hope you find the proffered samples of interest...
>>>> dmh
The answer would be "no"... I suppose - in some parallel universe in
which hallucinogenic experiences were the norm - they might have
achieved some little fame, but in this pitiful backwater - not so much.
I really don't have any extensive examples anymore - which seems a shame
now. In my 30s, I made a great ceremony of finally dumping a rather huge
box of "early masterworks" into the trash - ceremonial cleansing you
see. In that huge wad of "genius" most of such things were sent to
languish in obscurity. The one I do retain is this...
Poem Written On LSD
Horses (I am horses, I am) comein
White & (then I) horses comein
Horses. Wh wh wh
Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
Horses. Wh wh wh
You might see that it lacks - uh - magnificence...
dmh
Dale Houstman
>>> Unreal: The Mystery of Henry Darger. Have you seen that?
>> Oh yes: quite good really, and obviously done with a great amount of
>> "love of subject" - even the animations (which could have been
>> disastrous) are quite enjoyable. Darger is an interesting case: one
>> suspects he might have done some terrible things if he hadn't had art to
>> contain his desires.
>>
>>>> Glad you enjoyed them.
>>> I did very much.
>>>> As to the interpretation of the first: he's schizophrenic so probably
>>>> much of it is an exemplar of "personal mythos" although it is obvious he
>>>> has either read a lot of Shakespeare, and is now disgorging it in
>>>> shards, or he uses the plays as source.
>>> What I mean is, what is his Gertrude saying Hamlet�s �first decision�
>>> is?
>> Lordy if I know...
>>
>> dmh
>>
> herself if she should have a forced miscarriage, and then I�m stuck.
> The fetus� �first decision�: �to be or not to be� in her womb, to
> abort itself?
Interesting, this movement of Hamlet's soliloquy into the mouth of
Gertrude. Perhaps a contemplation on saving the world and herself from
Hamlet at all. Also of note that she paints Ophelia as her "surrogate".
Hamlet is - of course - a great touchstone for the mad, replete with
mommy problems, anger, and an inability to decide/act. He also visits
his madness upon the floating flower girl. So the poem may be seen as
Gertrude's awareness of a form of congenital psychopathy, and her
attempt to forestall the sad tale. And the myth of "original sin" where
her very "entrance in and exit out" is mother to evil and despair? Seems
Mr Beard might be regretting his own birth...?
dmh
> .
> to let be or to not let be:
> �tis not of this world, this whelp
> within my womb,
> already for the dark corridor
> of entrance in and exit out,
> cometo loose this madness
> on us all: God or gods befouled
> by discordant desires and divine right,
> whole destinies determined in the toss
> of sickly seed; now a weighty waiting-in,
> an eternal doubt,
> sac of unborn bones and hair and doom:
> which way one turns, the lump is ever there
> and blood shall curdle on this moment�s notice
> of what has passed and shall yet pass.
> This alien madness crouching ready in me
> kin of sodden saints worth but sick damns,
> my profit no mere lamb,
> demon dancing on the edge
> of bubbling tubs, stirring all the mucks
> of aging sadness, growing forcefully to know
> the mad why�s of this his first decision:
> letit go, let it be, Godbless,
> you shall pay as you�ve paid me,
> and kick and roll and moan
> and madden, as my poor poor surrogate floats
> down Lethe with pale flowers in her dead mouth.
> -- Richard Beard
> edited
Cythera
> Karla wrote:
>
> >> dmh
>
> > Please share one of your hallucinogenic fragments! Did you achieve any
> > Coleridge masterpieces, such as Kubla Khan?
>
> > Karla
>
> The answer would be "no"... I suppose - in some parallel universe in
> which hallucinogenic experiences were the norm - they might have
> achieved some little fame, but in this pitiful backwater - not so much.
> I really don't have any extensive examples anymore - which seems a shame
> now. In my 30s, I made a great ceremony of finally dumping a rather huge
> box of "early masterworks" into the trash - ceremonial cleansing you
> see. In that huge wad of "genius" most of such things were sent to
> languish in obscurity. The one I do retain is this...
>
> Poem Written On LSD
>
> Horses (I am horses, I am) comein
> White & (then I) horses comein
> Horses. Wh wh wh
> Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
> Horses. Wh wh wh
>
> You might see that it lacks - uh - magnificence...
>
> dmh
>
if he knew what horses were). It’s magnifilent!
Dale Houstman
Dale the Poo at your cervix...Mebbee orl me poms shoeda bin rotten on LSD?
dmh
dmh
Cythera
>
> Dale the Poo at your cervix...Mebbee orl me poms shoeda bin rotten on LSD?
>
> dmh
>
> dmh
>
White & (then I) horses comein
Horses. Wh wh wh
Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
Horses. Wh wh wh
>
“Nay”
But let poms comein
Karla
Cythera says...
>
>On Aug 14, 12:21=A0pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>> Cythera wrote:
>> > On Aug 13, 10:51 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>> >> Karla wrote:
>>
>> >>>> dmh
>>
>y
>> >>> Coleridge masterpieces, such as Kubla Khan?
>>
>> >>> Karla
>>
>> >> The answer would be "no"... I suppose - in some parallel universe in
>> >> which hallucinogenic experiences were the norm - they might have
>.
>> >> I really don't have any extensive examples anymore - which seems a sha=
>me
>> >> now. In my 30s, I made a great ceremony of finally dumping a rather hu=
>ge
>> >> box of "early masterworks" into the trash - ceremonial cleansing you
>> >> see. In that huge wad of "genius" most of such things were sent to
>> >> languish in obscurity. The one I do retain is this...
>>
>> >> Poem Written On LSD
>>
>> >> Horses (I am horses, I am) comein
>> >> White & (then I) horses comein
>> >> Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
>>
>> >> You might see that it lacks - uh - magnificence...
>>
>> >> dmh
>>
>> > Au contraire, you sound like Winnie the Pooh on fermented honey (and
>>
>> Dale the Poo at your cervix...Mebbee orl me poms shoeda bin rotten on LSD=
>?
>>
>> dmh
>>
>> dmh
>>
>Horses (I am horses, I am) comein
>Like tall wavecaps
>White & (then I) horses comein
>Horses. Wh wh wh
>Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
>Therefore I think
>Horses. Wh wh wh
>>
>But let poms comein
I couldn't think of it last night when I read it. Cythera's play nudged my
memory. Dale was intoning Equus!
Karla
Will Dockery
>Dale Houstman wrote:
>
> > >> Poem Written On LSD
>
> > >> Horses (I am horses, I am) comein
> > >> White & (then I) horses comein
> > >> Horses. Wh wh wh
> > >> Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
> > >> Horses. Wh wh wh
>
>
> Horses (I am horses, I am) comein
> Like tall wavecaps
> White & (then I) horses comein
> I’ll be driving six white
> Horses. Wh wh wh
> Aspic horses (I am horses, comein) I am
> Therefore I think
> Horses. Wh wh wh
>
> “Nay”
> But let poms comein
A Patti Smith homage?
"Horses" by Patti Smith:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3coSfks4rQ
Studio recording from "Horses" album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATqt4CgMjBY
Land
"Horses" lyrics written by Patti Smith
"Land of 1000 Dances" lyrics written by Chris Kenner
"La Mer (De)" lyrics written by Patti Smith
The boy was in the hallway drinking a glass of tea
From the other end of the hallway a rhythm was generating
Another boy was sliding up the hallway
He merged perfectly with the hallway,
He merged perfectly, the mirror in the hallway
The boy looked at Johnny, Johnny wanted to run,
but the movie kept moving as planned
The boy took Johnny, he pushed him against the locker,
He drove it in, he drove it home, he drove it deep in Johnny
The boy disappeared, Johnny fell on his knees,
started crashing his head against the locker,
started crashing his head against the locker,
started laughing hysterically
When suddenly Johnny gets the feeling he's being surrounded by
horses, horses, horses, horses
coming in in all directions
white shining silver studs with their nose in flames,
He saw horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses, horses.
Do you know how to pony like bony maroney
Do you know how to twist, well it goes like this, it goes like this
Baby mash potato, do the alligator, do the alligator
And you twist the twister like your baby sister
I want your baby sister, give me your baby sister, dig your baby
sister
Rise up on her knees, do the sweet pea, do the sweet pee pee,
Roll down on her back, got to lose control, got to lose control,
Got to lose control and then you take control,
Then you're rolled down on your back and you like it like that,
Like it like that, like it like that, like it like that,
Then you do the watusi, yeah do the watusi
Life is filled with holes, Johnny's laying there, his sperm coffin
Angel looks down at him and says, “Oh, pretty boy,
Can't you show me nothing but surrender ?”
Johnny gets up, takes off his leather jacket,
Taped to his chest there's the answer,
You got pen knives and jack knives and
Switchblades preferred, switchblades preferred
Then he cries, then he screams, saying
Life is full of pain, I'm cruisin' through my brain
And I fill my nose with snow and go Rimbaud,
Go Rimbaud, go Rimbaud,
And go Johnny go, and do the watusi, oh do the watusi
There's a little place, a place called space
It's a pretty little place, it's across the tracks,
Across the tracks and the name of the place is you like it like that,
You like it like that, you like it like that, you like it like that,
And the name of the band is the
Twistelettes, Twistelettes, Twistelettes, Twistelettes,
Twistelettes, Twistelettes, Twistelettes, Twistelettes
Baby calm down, better calm down,
In the night, in the eye of the forest
There's a mare black and shining with yellow hair,
I put my fingers through her silken hair and found a stair,
I didn't waste time, I just walked right up and saw that
up there -- there is a sea
up there -- there is a sea
up there -- there is a sea
the sea's the possibility
There is no land but the land
(up there is just a sea of possibilities)
There is no sea but the sea
(up there is a wall of possibilities)
There is no keeper but the key
(up there there are several walls of possibilities)
Except for one who seizes possibilities, one who seizes possibilities.
(up there)
I seize the first possibility, is the sea around me
I was standing there with my legs spread like a sailor
(in a sea of possibilities) I felt his hand on my knee
(on the screen)
And I looked at Johnny and handed him a branch of cold flame
(in the heart of man)
The waves were coming in like Arabian stallions
Gradually lapping into sea horses
He picked up the blade and he pressed it against his smooth throat
(the spoon)
And let it deep in
(the veins)
Dip in to the sea, to the sea of possibilities
It started hardening
Dip in to the sea, to the sea of possibilities
It started hardening in my hand
And I felt the arrows of desire
I put my hand inside his cranium, oh we had such a brainiac-amour
But no more, no more, I gotta move from my mind to the area
(go Rimbaud go Rimbaud go Rimbaud)
And go Johnny go and do the watusi,
Yeah do the watusi, do the watusi ...
Shined open coiled snakes white and shiny twirling and encircling
Our lives are now entwined, we will fall yes we're together twining
Your nerves, your mane of the black shining horse
And my fingers all entwined through the air,
I could feel it, it was the hair going through my fingers,
(I feel it I feel it I feel it I feel it)
The hairs were like wires going through my body
I I that's how I
that's how I
I died
(at that Tower of Babel they knew what they were after)
(they knew what they were after)
[Everything on the current] moved up
I tried to stop it, but it was too warm, too unbelievably smooth,
Like playing in the sea, in the sea of possibility, the possibility
Was a blade, a shiny blade, I hold the key to the sea of possibilities
There's no land but the land
looked at my hands, and there's a red stream
that went streaming through the sands like fingers,
like arteries, like fingers
(how much fits between the eyes of a horse?)
He lay, pressing it against his throat (your eyes)
He opened his throat (your eyes)
His vocal chords started shooting like (of a horse) mad pituitary
glands
The scream he made (and my heart) was so high (my heart) pitched that
nobody heard,
No one heard that cry,
No one heard (Johnny) the butterfly flapping in his throat,
(His fingers)
Nobody heard, he was on that bed, it was like a sea of jelly,
And so he seized the first
(his vocal chords shot up)
(possibility)
(like mad pituitary glands)
It was a black tube, he felt himself disintegrate
(there is nothing happening at all)
and go inside the black tube, so when he looked out into the steep
saw this sweet young thing (Fender one)
Humping on the parking meter, leaning on the parking meter
In the sheets
there was a man
dancing around
to the simple
Rock & roll
song
-Patti Smith
--
Ashli Soul reads her poem "Blue Girl" with music by Henry Conley and
Geno Woolfolk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtT-Q0AKxwc
Dale Houstman
> On Aug 13, 11:02 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>> Cythera wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Disentangled from its problem language, Gertrude seems to be asking
>>> herself if she should have a forced miscarriage, and then I�m stuck.
>>> The fetus� �first decision�: �to be or not to be� in her womb, to
>>> abort itself?
>> Interesting, this movement of Hamlet's soliloquy into the mouth of
>> Gertrude. Perhaps a contemplation on saving the world and herself from
>> Hamlet at all. Also of note that she paints Ophelia as her "surrogate".
>>
>> Hamlet is - of course - a great touchstone for the mad, replete with
>> mommy problems, anger, and an inability to decide/act.
>>
> portrayed by men instead of boys. He�s supposed to be how old: 18? If
> we really saw him as a kid his behavior would be easier to understand.
> I recently tried to watch the version with Kenneth Branagh, also
> directing, as Hamlet. He did a good job with Gertrude�s first scene in
> showing what an insensitive person she was, as she swept out of the
> room with her new husband. Ick.
>> He also visits
>> his madness upon the floating flower girl.
>>
> during the movie.
That is at the core of the play's dilemma - it's about playacting of
course, but if one continues playing mad after said role has led to the
death of several people, is that acting a form of madness? It's a "mad"
solution to Hamlet's concerns, and if frankly made necessary (in
dramatic terms) by the fact Hamlet simply cannot make up his mind about
reality or the actions needed to address that reality. Innocents die.
>> So the poem may be seen as
>> Gertrude's awareness of a form of congenital psychopathy, and her
>> attempt to forestall the sad tale.
>>
> She�s horrible, though: �you shall pay as you�ve paid me�? What did
> Hamlet do? It was her murdering second husband that set everything in
> motion. It�s interesting to me that Beard�s Gertrude lets him and
> herself off the hook and blames everything bad that will happen on her
> child.
Well that (possibly) speaks to whatever lay at the core of Beard's
persona issues. Surely it is meaningful that Beard drew on Shakespeare's
great "mommy issue" play to express whatever he's getting at. What I
meant by "forestall the sad tale" is not that she was a sympathetic
soul, but that she was willing to remove the slaughter from others (and
herself) to just Hamlet: to have him undone. Horrid yes, but in a play
full of horrids and death of innocence.
dmh
Karla
>On Aug 14, 5:47�pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>> In article <85e9d598-cc18-4890-b7af-b3c522641...@y28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
>> Cythera says...
>>
>>
>> >But let poms comein
>>
>> I couldn't think of it last night when I read it. Cythera's play nudged my
>> memory. Dale was intoning Equus!
>>
>> Karla
>>
>How so? I don�t remember the play or movie too well, possibly because
>I can�t stand reading or watching anything that has violence to
>animals.
It's been awhile for me, but years ago I saw it more than once. The boy has a
special communion with horses. He behaves like a horse. If I recall correctly,
he thought the horse spirit was god who saw his wrong doing. Thus, his act. It's
the mad sing-songy voice of person/horse that made me think of the movie.
"Horses (I am horses, I am) comein . . ."
I know what you mean about the violence part and, every time I watched the
movie, looked away from the scene where he blinds the horses.
"That's what his stare has been saying to me all this time: 'At least I galloped
- when did you?'" spoken by Martin Dysart (psychiatrist)
Nice surprise for me! I looked up the film on IMDb and found out Peter Firth,
currently in MI5 ("Spooks" in Britain), was the patient. I need to see it again,
I remember being moved by Burton's soliloquy at the end. Best kind of mystery!
Karla
George Dance
> On Aug 11, 5:22 pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > On Aug 11, 4:43 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
> > > - it stinks. I could
> > > rewrite it once more and (probably) achieve something not totally bad,
> > > but it really isn't worth my effort.
> > > dmh
>
> > I agree, it's
> > pretty awful. It reads like a college kid's version of what she thinks
> > high falutin' poetry should sound like. I hate the line breaks too.
>
> cling / missing / cling / hanging / missing etc.
> etc.
>
Yes, there's some casual rhyming. Don't forget "this" and "piss".
> > Sadly, I know some blog or zine will publish it.
> > Karla
>
> It’s like one long run-on sentence someone forgot to edit.
>
It can be read as one sentence: that's one reason I cut all the
punctuation. I'd disagree, though, that a poem consisting of one
sentence indicates that the poet (or the editor, in this case, in
deference to Karla) "forgot to edit" it.
> > The Workers do not Dream
>
> > The workers do not dream
> > of renouncing love
> > inexplicably
> > they cling to this
> > final bastion of exploitation
>
> I don’t see an antecedent for “this.”
>
"love," obviously.
> <snip>
I'd like to thank you and your friends for the -- "honest critiques,"
would you say?
George Dance
> On Aug 13, 6:15 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 13, 6:37 pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 13, 3:11 pm, automattick <qoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > my god...the entire page is an incestuous mess of liars
> > > > and assholes.
>
> > > > i didn't know that was even possible.
>
> > > > you all love slobbering all over each other...donchya..?
>
> > > > matt
>
> > > my god...should we flame & troll instead? Wait! You handle that quite
> > > well all by yourself.
>
> > Oh, really? Matt does all the trolling and flaming by himself, does
> > he? First I've heard of that from you.
>
> No need to respond to this but just look at most of the threads
> lately.
I'm still too busy to read most of the threads, but I did get a chance
to read some of the comments or critiques on TWDND tonight; and even
write a reply to one.
> People conversing about writing; the discussion here about
> what we've been reading; discussions elsewhere about Roth.
... Dale declaring that a poem he didn't write (which of course has
been snipped out of a discussion) "stinks," Barbara's Cat chiming in
that it's "garbage," you agreeing that it's "pretty awful," Cythera
agreeing with all of you. Looks like I haven't missed much here
lately.
> Matt isn't
> satisfied with that, has to flame.
Yes, like me, Matt should be glad-ass happy that you (not to mention
your friends) deigned to comment at all. Bad Matt!
> That's this week. Awhile ago he
> complained about trolls.
You mean trolls like the one who likes to call other people "thief,"
the one who likes to snip and even rewrite their posts, the one who's
called others everything from "thug" to "bonehead" this month, and the
one who likes to repeat stories about them being "brain damaged" and
such? Maybe he's complaining because those 4 are all in the present
thread, pretending to be having a "writing" discussion.
> Most of his posts are about what other people
> on the group are doing or his feelings about them.
Perish the thought that someone on AAPC might write about "other
people on the group" or his/her "feelings about them." Should we ask
Peter Ross if that violates the FAQ?
> It's not unique to
> Matt.
No!
> Just funny coming from the guy who wants it better around here.
> Kinda crazy actually.
Well, I dunno. I believe in following the Golden Rule in general with
people, and I'd love to see that as the norm around here: but I don't
treat those who like to fuck with me or others by it. That may seem
contradictory, but there's a certain logic to it.
George Dance
> On Aug 12, 10:29 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Aug 10, 11:38 pm, Karla <karl...@NEVERcomcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2009 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > >On Aug 10, 8:30 pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > > >> On Aug 10, 5:18 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > > >> > On Aug 10, 1:18 pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > On Aug 10, 5:55 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > On Aug 10, 5:54 am, matt <qoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > On Aug 9, 10:41 pm, Dale Houstman <d...@skypoint.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > > George Dance wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > > On Aug 9, 10:39 am, matt <qoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > >> On Aug 9, 6:56 am, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
> > > >> > > > > > >>> The Workers do not Dream
> > > >> > > > > > >>> The workers do not dream
> > > >> > > > > > >>> of renouncing love
> > > >> > > > > > >>> inexplicably
> > > >> > > > > > >>> they cling to this
> > > >> > > > > > >>> final bastion of exploitation
> > > >> > > > > > >>> on their legs and dry-hump
> > > >> > > > > > >>> their empty dreams
> > > >> > > > > > >>> and the fat cats
> > > >> > > > > > >>> whip them in bondage
> > > >> > > > > > >>> while their severed hands
> > > >> > > > > > >>> make good paperweights
> > > >> > > > > > >>> for upper management
> > > >> > > > > > >>> even as their disillusionment
> > > >> > > > > > >>> is torn from them
> > > >> > > > > > >>> as the wild dog tears flesh
> > > >> > > > > > >>> free from the bone
> > > >> > > > > > >>> they will not gauge themselves
> > > >> > > > > > >>> by their loss
> > > >> > > > > > >>> still they cling
> > > >> > > > > > >>> to that missing
> > > >> > > > > > >>> part of themselves
> > > >> > > > > > >>> as if perpetually
> > > >> > > > > > >>> anchored
> > > >> > > > > > >>> to an invisible echelon
> > > >> > > > > > >>> watching gunboats approach
> > > >> > > > > > >>> gracefully they cling
> > > >> > > > > > >>> to their final slavery
> > > >> > > > > > >>> their renunciation
> > > >> > > > > > >>> a eulogy to love
> > > >> > > > > > >>> a torn sheet hanging
> > > >> > > > > > >>> from a hotel window
> > > >> > > > > > >>> as the management's dogs
> > > >> > > > > > >>> enter unbidden
> > > >> > > > > > >>> death's sweet dream
> > > >> > > > > > >>> and if anything is missing
> > > >> > > > > > >>> when the bodies are catalogued
> > > >> > > > > > >>> no poor employee
> > > >> > > > > > >>> will speak up.
> > > >> > > > > > >>> –--
> > > >> > > > > > >>> Lines by aapc collective
> > > >> > > > > > >>> Poem by George Dance
> > > >> > > > > > >> i knew that looked familiar.
>
> > > >> > > > > > >> thanks for posting.
>
> > > >> > > > > > >> matt
>
> > > >> > > > > > > You wrote LL6-8, probably more.
>
> > > >> > > > > > I wrote a sizable portion of that, [in fact, the poem as is is pretty
> > > >> > > > > > much my ideas and words] (your original was dismal), and refuse to be
> > > >> > > > > > foisted off as part of some imaginary "aapc collective." It was a
> > > >> > > > > > passing game, and for you to now post it with no attribution other than
> > > >> > > > > > "aapc collective" is repulsive.
>
> > > >> > > > > > dmh- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > >> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > >> > > > > well then instead of aapc collective, maybe george
> > > >> > > > > should have put aapc collective under the careful care
> > > >> > > > > and heartfelt consideration of heart & soul master
> > > >> > > > > poet dale m. houstman..?
>
> > > >> > > > > i mean, let's face it...look at the thing...it's a heart & soul
> > > >> > > > > journal entry.
>
> > > >> > > > > matt
>
> > > >> > > > Dale did contribute lines, so he's a stakeholder; and if he disagrees,
> > > >> > > > then I can't publish it. It's not just a simple matter of cutting his
> > > >> > > > lines; that would mean having to write a new ending, which would
> > > >> > > > defeat the whole purpose.
>
> > > >> > > > Frankly, I expected him to be the one giving me problems with this,
> > > >> > > > hence the reason for vetting it: I'd rather have him bitching here,
> > > >> > > > and claiming to have "pretty much" written the poem himself, than
> > > >> > > > having him bother his "lawyer friends" after it's been published
> > > >> > > > elsewhere.
>
> > > >> > > George, what does this mean:
>
> > > >> > > > > >>> Lines by aapc collective
> > > >> > > > > >>> Poem by George Dance
>
> > > >> > > Why isn't the aapc collective the authors of the poem? Why "Poem by
> > > >> > > George Dance"?
>
> > > >> > The 'collective' (which was six people who participated in the thread)
> > > >> > contributed lines; the result of their effort was a bunch of lines,
> > > >> > not the above. The above was a result of arranging, (in some, not all,
> > > >> > cases) rewriting, rebreaking,
> > > >> > and repunctuating them.
>
> > > >> > At the time, the idea was suggested (to no dissent) that anyone who
> > > >> > contributed was free to take them and write their own poem. However,
> > > >> > after I'd finished this I posted it as "by the aapc collective," under
> > > >> > the title "one" (which had also been suggested).
>
> > > >> > Why call it my poem? Well, maybe it is; that depends on whether I
> > > >> > created a "new work" or not.
>
> > > >> Although I was aware of it while people were contributing, I didn't
> > > >> read every post. It just looks weird that way. So I asked. I'd think
> > > >> "poetry lines contributed by ___, ___, ___ etc. and edited by George
> > > >> Dance" is more accurate.
>
> > > >Well, not one line in there is in the form it was contributed; (though
> > > >for most of them that only means they were broken in two and had the
> > > >punctuation stripped). So I don't know if that's accurate, either.
>
> > > Did the lines used from each contributor come from each contributor's poem? I
> > > had thought someone started with a line and others added to it.
>
> > > >> Not that y'all care about what I think of
> > > >> your group effort's attribution.
>
> > > >Not true at all; of course I care what you think of this. I told you,
> > > >in another thread, that I'd be posting it for you to look at and
> > > >comment.
>
> > > I didn't see that.
>
> > Probably because you read the first paragraph below, went off to
> > search for and, found Dale's post, came back, wrote a reply, and sent
> > -- and never got to the third.
>
> I doubt it. Most likely, I just missed the other thread asking me to
> see this thread. Did you mention me by name?
Well, yes, it was written to you in response to a post of yours.
> Also, I did see another
> mention in one of these threads that Dale must have deleted his poem,
> Mercury Mates With Clocks
Same thread, same post: though I didn't say he must have removed it, I
said he appeared to have removed it.
> and it didn't sound like Dale, so the other
> time it was mentioned,
My post was the only one I've seen. There's been a lot of talk about
post removing lately, but none I'd read (and I was reading most
everything at the time) that involved Dale.
Cythera did reply, quoting only the first paragraph of the quote and
snipping the other two without indication. In a follow-up, she (not
you, as I'd remembered) suggested I use "sort by date" on the google
thread.
> I looked for myself, but didn't post. Seeing it
> mentioned again, I repeated the exercise & posted it for you.
>
> Did you jump to this part and miss my question about the group poem
> above?
>
No; I thought you'd already answered that yourself. But, if not: the
participants all contributed lines, not poems (though some, who
contributed multiple lines, may have meant them as poems -- I can't
speak for them).
>
> > > ><paste>
> > > >[Karla:]
> > > >> You've done a good job of intermingling the two pieces, and you are
> > > >> correct, he followed Alacrity's line order. However, comparing even
> > > >> small sections of the poem, it's clear that Dale's poem is a new work,
> > > >> different theme, different imagery, etc.
>
> > > >That's a moot question in the case of Dale's poem, as he's apparently
> > > >removed the only version he's published, and I doubt he'll be
> > > >publishing it anywhere else. It's an interesting question, though, and
> > > >worth discussing if it could only be disentangled from discussion of
> > > >the personalities involved.
>
> > > I think Google Groups must be acting up for you. Dale's poem is still there.
> > > arqdnVAw1s-9vj7UnZ2dnUVZ_tfin...@skypoint.com
> > > If that doesn't work, put the Mercury Switches in date order; Dale's post and
> > > poem is found at #21.
>
> > Oh, sorry. You told me to try 'sort by date' and I found it; right at
> > #21. Still can't find it using sort by reply, though Will's reply to
> > it is visible (which is why I thought it was removed). Will must have
> > tacked his reply onto a different message.
>
> Yesterday, Google Groups searching was terrible - I was looking for
> the history of "The Workers Do Not Dream", searching for the old
> thread, "Let's write a poem", using key words from the poem posted
> here. The earlier thread by Mark didn't pop up as a search result when
> I searched "workers do not dream" as a phrase in aapc as a group. When
> I tried rap, it popped up immediately, which makes no sense since it
> appears to be posted to aapc first. Google Groups archiving is a mess.
>
Not the archiving; the search engines. The "Search this Group" feature
for AAPC has been particularly unreliable lately. I've been getting
better results using "Search All Groups" instead and adding
"group:alt.arts.poetry.comments" to the spec, as if that makes any
sense.
> > > >[George]
> > > >I have a thought: I have a poem in which I didn't write any of the
> > > >lines; and which I do have ideas of publishing elsewhere; so it isn't
> > > >necessarily moot. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts -- and
> > > >Will's, and Dale's, and anyone else who wants to read it -- on whether
> > > >it's an original work or not.
>
> > > >So I'll go do that right now.
> > > ></up>
>
> > > I don't like the poem at all which leaves me with no motivation to figure out my
> > > opinion on the originality of it. Perhaps someone else will comment though, or
> > > down the line, I'll feel like it.
>
> > > Karla
Karla
wrote:
>On Aug 13, 9:35�pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> On Aug 13, 6:15�pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 13, 6:37�pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Aug 13, 3:11�pm, automattick <qoph...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > my god...the entire page is an incestuous mess of liars
>> > > > and assholes.
>>
>> > > > i didn't know that was even possible.
>>
>> > > > you all love slobbering all over each other...donchya..?
>>
>> > > > matt
>>
>> > > my god...should we flame & troll instead? Wait! You handle that quite
>> > > well all by yourself.
>>
>> > Oh, really? Matt does all the trolling and flaming by himself, does
>> > he? First I've heard of that from you.
>>
>> No need to respond to this but just look at most of the threads
>> lately.
>
>I'm still too busy to read most of the threads, but I did get a chance
>to read some of the comments or critiques on TWDND tonight; and even
>write a reply to one.
And I've read your posts tonight. You could save yourself some time and just
assume that what you think people have posted is what they posted. Oh wait!
That's what you are doing!
>> People conversing about writing; the discussion here about
>> what we've been reading; discussions elsewhere about Roth.
>
>... Dale declaring that a poem he didn't write (which of course has
>been snipped out of a discussion) "stinks," Barbara's Cat chiming in
>that it's "garbage," you agreeing that it's "pretty awful," Cythera
>agreeing with all of you. Looks like I haven't missed much here
>lately.
It's a waste of breath to comment further, you have latched on to your position,
and there's no moving you.
Yes, the group poem idea is fun, and sometimes works, but rarely does it work
without further revision, a talking out of where the poem should go once people
have contributed, and then a stern look at the composite with a commitment to
make it a good poem, even if it means leavin the warm, fuzzy group feelings
behind. Here, everyone's piled the clay on the table and walked away; there's no
group effort to chip it away, polish, bring a continuity to it.
You want me to pretend otherwise? That's what I always feel I come back to with
you. Pretense. Let's all pretend that a crappy poem smells like Chanel No. 5.
>> Matt isn't
>> satisfied with that, has to flame.
>
>Yes, like me, Matt should be glad-ass happy that you (not to mention
>your friends) deigned to comment at all. Bad Matt!
So, you think Matt is pissy because several opined that the group poem sucked?
And that Matt is taking his poutiness out on a Cythera, Dale and I? Pretty
screwed up!
>> That's this week. Awhile ago he
>> complained about trolls.
>
>You mean trolls like the one who likes to call other people "thief,"
>the one who likes to snip and even rewrite their posts, the one who's
>called others everything from "thug" to "bonehead" this month, and the
>one who likes to repeat stories about them being "brain damaged" and
>such? Maybe he's complaining because those 4 are all in the present
>thread, pretending to be having a "writing" discussion.
Let me get this straight: you think that we're pretending to have a writing
discussion? How does that fantasy work? Are we emailing each other "let's
pretend to have a writing discussion?" This is rich!
>> Most of his posts are about what other people
>> on the group are doing or his feelings about them.
>
>Perish the thought that someone on AAPC might write about "other
>people on the group" or his/her "feelings about them." Should we ask
>Peter Ross if that violates the FAQ?
Pretend that you don't know what I'm getting at. In particular, Matt drools acid
when it comes to Cythera. Matt doesn't want just trolls kept from aapc, he wants
anyone he doesn't like to be gone.
Geez, people aren't cross-posting, the AUK crowd isn't posting with any
regularity. I can't remember the last time. Matt should be rejoicing. He should
be raising the bar around here. But we get the whine session.
>> It's not unique to
>> Matt.
>
>No!
>
>> Just funny coming from the guy who wants it better around here.
>> Kinda crazy actually.
>
>Well, I dunno. I believe in following the Golden Rule in general with
>people, and I'd love to see that as the norm around here: but I don't
>treat those who like to fuck with me or others by it. That may seem
>contradictory, but there's a certain logic to it.
And someone pointing out that a poem is crap violates your golden rule? Unless I
pretend to find something good in what you write, you feel justified in striking
out at me personally? That's screwed up.
Karla
wrote:
>On Aug 12, 1:48�pm, Karla <karl...@comcast.net> wrote:
Here's your quote:
"I wasn't saying anything: I was showing, rather than telling. Several
people say things about the two works, but there are others on the
group who haven't seen them. Nor will they easily find them in the
archives, since Dale's post to Alacrity has been removed."
A couple of posts down, Cythera pastes in the header for the thread, and you
comment that it wasn't removed from other groups, just aapc.
Oh, is that it? Where did you read that? I didn't know they'd commented on the
problem.
Will Dockery
> On Aug 14, 10:35 pm, Will Dockery wrote:
>
> <snip to save bandwidth>
>
> What do you think: is the Patti Smith piece a good poem or is it a
> song lyric?
I've always loved Patti Smith's work in any area she's been involved
in, poetry, music, film... even her record reviews in the old Creem
Magazine can be called "poetry".
--
"She Sleeps Tight" by Will Dockery & Brian Mallard (video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uGY157cpiU
automattick
> On Sat, 15 Aug 2009 23:36:46 -0700 (PDT), George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca>
apparently karla missed the part where i asked for the
group to take a moment to recognize "a usenet legend...dale
m. houstman..." then, promptly backed up the praise with
one of his poems.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.arts.poetry.comments/browse_thread/thread/6dcc9d97d20e16e5?hl=en#
if that's "whining," maybe i need to refresh my understanding
of the definition.
matt
(...)
Barbara's Cat
> "whining," maybe i need to refresh my understanding of the definition.
A dictionary would be a good place to start.
--------------------------------------------
THE PURPOSE
Over and over the task was set,
Over and over I slighted the work,
But ever and alway I knew that yet
I must face and finish the toil I shirk.
Over and over the whip of pain
Has spurred and punished with blow on blow;
As ever and alway I tried in vain
To shun the labour I hated so.
Over and over I came this way
For just one purpose: O stubborn soul!
Turn with a will to your work to-day,
And learn the lesson of SELF-CONTROL.
- Ella Wheeler Wilcox
--
Cm~
"He won't get it."
- ggamble