You could be God, you're so far away
Karla
On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
reading at the Gates of Hell
but I came at noon to the sound of bells
parked cars in plain sight
wordless, no torch to burn
which probably made a difference
I turned away
uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
You walked among the men
reading off their names
those Burghers of Calais
You could be God, you're so far away
The son of Morgan won tonight
(this is how we pray)
and I think, I should have looked harder
at the Gates of Hell
for a keyhole, a door
in full sunlight it's one bronze piece
I turned away
wanting to walk with you in the cool of the day
You probably asked me
why six men were cast there
those Burghers of Calais
You could be God, you're so far away
Green is the color of politicians
and it's fitting that the Gates of Hell
casts a giant shadow wherever burghers gather
in the new world
green peace, greenbacks, green party
though I remember six rich men who
didn't turn away
that is my overdue answer
It was a gravel garden, remember
and I am bronze, maybe a bell
praying with the Burghers of Calais
You could be God, you're so far away
You could be God, you're so far away
but a phonecall near, it is my turn
Here is Apple in the heart of Silicon Valley
did you eat, do you know me, am I good
we are politicians, you must not be polite
and turn away
the Burghers of Calais are greening
Karla
Diana
Thanks for this, Karla.
I've read it a few times now.
Interesting 8-4 8-4 8-4 7 stanza line pattern. Homemade pattern or
established one? I only comment on that initial facet of your poem
because I'm trying to get a feel for forms and really blow goats at it.
For right now, anyways.
'tis late so
watch this space for C&C.
(I know, I'm not so great at getting back to an intended reply. But I
will. Promise.)
Diana
Vera
Yours is one to be proud of!
Vera
"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote in message
news:j90jd2dkg157hu9k5...@4ax.com...
arn...@yahoo.com
It is a good one,What? Keep guessing.
Cheers
Paul Heslop
great criticism there. maybe you could try for your degree in humanity
next.
--
Paul (Neurotic to the bone No doubt about it)
------------------------------------------------------
Stop and Look
http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
Stuart Leichter
kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net wrote on 8/9/06 2:32 AM:
OBpoem:
Great take
on the Primary Day wake
or: It's NPM en Auguste!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burghers_of_Calais
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_Hell
EVE: An apple a day keeps the doctor away!
ADAM: Mmm! You shouldn't talk with your mouth full.
Have you been listening to Dar Williams? You made me think of Reds and Jack
Reed telling the room that US intervention in the European war (WW1) was
about "profits" for "J.P. Morgan". Morgan's Library and a lot of places hold
great works, probably given as ransom or stolen, or purchased, etc. The idea
of multiple copies of art is very democratic (as liberal derives from 'one
who reads and writes'), plus it's fitting that Stanford should host perfect
versions of the great Rodins; also the host of datamining genius; John
Brodie; and Tiger Woods (who stayed but 2 years). Was Reds (1981) the last
movie with an Intermission? (I haven't gone to the movies much since then.)
When I did go, every movie ended with improbable but palpable mayhem, and
there was a mad rush afterward to play the video kill games in the lobby.
Also you made me think of Matthew Arnold barely able to make out Calais from
his perch. And Chaucer's Pardoner ("Radix malorum est cupiditas, [etc].")
And Bercilak de Hautdesert plus Morgan le Faye. Avarice must happen if
there's nothing else, it keeps the chaos at bay.
Thanks for the poem, Karla. I notice a glaring absence of any 'movement', as
such, except for a passing mention. It gives meaning to the nature of
sculpture, which forms by subtraction -- like the 'idea' is there, waiting
to be seen and grasped after its covering breaks and chips away. Then it
becomes clear how your poem tries to convey what we called The Movement.
Cast versus sculpted. Fate, destiny. Sophocles cast Oedipus in a role
similar to the Burghers. When I see things like the Rodins up close (I have
a rock keepsake from that same garden), I'm overcome by a sense that makes
me act like a footnoter. (Jack Reed: "You don't change what I write! No one
changes what I write!")
Stuart
Karla
says...
Hi Diana!
I'd like to think that each stanza has the number of lines it needs. Maybe I'm
being swayed lately by Kierkegaard who stood toe-to-toe with Plato.
>'tis late so
>watch this space for C&C.
>(I know, I'm not so great at getting back to an intended reply. But I
>will. Promise.)
You read my poem! Thanks!
Karla
>Diana
>
--
--
Karla
arn...@yahoo.com says...
>
>Ahahahahahahaha!! Pliz laugh with me. Its good for you and for me too.
>
>It is a good one,What? Keep guessing.
>
>Cheers
Merry Mercredi!
Karla
--
--
Karla
says...
>
>Some good poems being posted, Karla.
>Yours is one to be proud of!
>
>Vera
Why thanks, Vera.
Karla
--
--
Karla
Everything is at stake!
>or: It's NPM en Auguste!
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Burghers_of_Calais
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_Hell
Cool links! The Stanford display of the Burghers is closer to what Rodin wanted,
the base of each sculpture submerged, not elevated on a platform.
>EVE: An apple a day keeps the doctor away!
>ADAM: Mmm! You shouldn't talk with your mouth full.
>
>Have you been listening to Dar Williams? You made me think of Reds and Jack
>Reed telling the room that US intervention in the European war (WW1) was
>about "profits" for "J.P. Morgan". Morgan's Library and a lot of places hold
>great works, probably given as ransom or stolen, or purchased, etc. The idea
>of multiple copies of art is very democratic (as liberal derives from 'one
>who reads and writes'), plus it's fitting that Stanford should host perfect
>versions of the great Rodins; also the host of datamining genius; John
>Brodie; and Tiger Woods (who stayed but 2 years). Was Reds (1981) the last
>movie with an Intermission? (I haven't gone to the movies much since then.)
>When I did go, every movie ended with improbable but palpable mayhem, and
>there was a mad rush afterward to play the video kill games in the lobby.
>Also you made me think of Matthew Arnold barely able to make out Calais from
>his perch. And Chaucer's Pardoner ("Radix malorum est cupiditas, [etc].")
>And Bercilak de Hautdesert plus Morgan le Faye. Avarice must happen if
>there's nothing else, it keeps the chaos at bay.
Google is my friend. A blogger wondered what was the last movie to have an
intermission. She found a couple of sources who reported that Gandhi was the
last but decided to do her own work. She prepared this table:
http://ribarambles.org/2006_08_02_rambles.htm#MovieList
Gods and Generals (2003) is her last entry. I don't know of it. Hamlet in 1996,
Gettysburg in 1993, The Last Emperor and Once Upon a Time in America in 1984 all
had intermissions. She reminds us of Hitchcock's own thought on the subject:
“The length of a film should be directly related to the endurance of the human
bladder.”
I'm grateful to the movies and to you for putting me in such good company, JP
excepted.
>Thanks for the poem, Karla. I notice a glaring absence of any 'movement', as
>such, except for a passing mention. It gives meaning to the nature of
>sculpture, which forms by subtraction -- like the 'idea' is there, waiting
>to be seen and grasped after its covering breaks and chips away. Then it
>becomes clear how your poem tries to convey what we called The Movement.
>Cast versus sculpted. Fate, destiny. Sophocles cast Oedipus in a role
>similar to the Burghers. When I see things like the Rodins up close (I have
>a rock keepsake from that same garden), I'm overcome by a sense that makes
>me act like a footnoter. (Jack Reed: "You don't change what I write! No one
>changes what I write!")
Your 'glaring absence' brings to mind Dar's 'red glare' to answer your earlier
question. She gets almost everything right.
Thank you!
Karla
>Stuart
>
--
--
Stuart Leichter
wrote on 8/9/06 2:49 PM:
Thanks for the overdue answer, Karla. I lost the office pool. I had bet you
patterned it to fit with Rodin's years of sculpting the works, 1884-1888.
Stuart
Stuart Leichter
wrote on 8/9/06 3:11 PM:
> Google is my friend. A blogger wondered what was the last movie to have an
> intermission. She found a couple of sources who reported that Gandhi was the
> last but decided to do her own work. She prepared this table:
> http://ribarambles.org/2006_08_02_rambles.htm#MovieList
Thank you, I [HEART] the Internet.
I haven't caught up with the Gandhi movie yet. The very long table/list and
bottom grouping don't mention 2001: A Space Odyssey. I mean, I'm still in
shock, I spilled all my exclamation points. Has there ever been a more
dramatic and more contrived Intermission?
>
> Gods and Generals (2003) is her last entry. I don't know of it. Hamlet in
> 1996, Gettysburg in 1993, The Last Emperor and Once Upon a Time in America in
> 1984 all had intermissions. She reminds us of Hitchcock's own thought on the
> subject: “The length of a film should be directly related to the endurance of
> the human bladder.”
I saw TLE but don't recall an Intermission. The full version of OUaTiA never
made it to our town (the same town that sneaked The Right Stuff), only the
compressed, straight-line version.
In the middle-late 1980s, the manager of a cineplex took me on a tour of the
new additions, 2 or 4 new screens plus a 2nd 'lobby' (costing $75K) for
popcorn and pop. I remember saying to him, "These are all Dolby theaters,
right?" The original plex had one screen for Dolby. He said, "Nah. How many
movies are made in Dolby?" I didn't know the answer, but every movie I saw
on HBO, Cinemax, and Showtime all had in the credits that they were recorded
in Dolby blah-blah and shown that way "in select theaters". Even the dumbest
cheerleader movies were recorded in Dolby.
Stuart
Karla
Both are possible. Rodin, after all, is a chip off the old block.
Karla
>Stuart
>
>>
>>> 'tis late so
>>> watch this space for C&C.
>>> (I know, I'm not so great at getting back to an intended reply. But I
>>> will. Promise.)
>>
>> You read my poem! Thanks!
>>
>> Karla
>>
>>> Diana
>>>
>>
>
--
--
Sick Mind
"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
> You could be God, you're so far away
>
> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
> reading at the Gates of Hell
> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
> parked cars in plain sight
> wordless, no torch to burn
> which probably made a difference
> I turned away
> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
Gates ~ their shadow?
> You walked among the men
> reading off their names
> those Burghers of Calais
Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I don't
like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
~~
Sick Mind
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest
ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened
to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:34 (11:25 in Douay Rheims).
Stuart Leichter
Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/9/06 6:14 PM:
>
> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>> You could be God, you're so far away
>>
>> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
>> reading at the Gates of Hell
>> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
>> parked cars in plain sight
>> wordless, no torch to burn
>> which probably made a difference
>> I turned away
>> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
>
> Gates ~ their shadow?
It's a big sculpture and the 'title' of the same work, so its singular
agreement is correct (not are correct, btw).
>
>> You walked among the men
>> reading off their names
>> those Burghers of Calais
>
> Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I don't
> like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
You know why this is very very stupid, now, right?
Sick Mind
"Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>> You could be God, you're so far away
>>>
>>> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
>>> reading at the Gates of Hell
>>> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
>>> parked cars in plain sight
>>> wordless, no torch to burn
>>> which probably made a difference
>>> I turned away
>>> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
>> Gates ~ their shadow?
> It's a big sculpture and the 'title' of the same work, so its singular
> agreement is correct (not are correct, btw).
Well, aren't you the beacon of knowledge? Actually I am aware of
titles and collective nouns as well. They can take either singular /or/
plural when, as in this case, fitting. The class is meeting. The class is
meeting what? The class are meeting. (American Heritage Dictionary). And
notably british usage tends toward the plural especially with "government"
and "group." You know them. They live mostly on that island northwest of
France.
>>> You walked among the men
>>> reading off their names
>>> those Burghers of Calais
>>
>> Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I don't
>> like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
> You know why this is very very stupid, now, right?
You know why I don't care what you say, right? Don't lose the attitude
though. It's amusing.
Sick Mind
"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
> the Burghers of Calais are greening
Is greening?
Stuart Leichter
Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/9/06 7:21 PM:
>
> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>
>> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>
>>> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>>>> You could be God, you're so far away
>>>>
>>>> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
>>>> reading at the Gates of Hell
>>>> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
>>>> parked cars in plain sight
>>>> wordless, no torch to burn
>>>> which probably made a difference
>>>> I turned away
>>>> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
>
>>> Gates ~ their shadow?
>
>> It's a big sculpture and the 'title' of the same work, so its singular
>> agreement is correct (not are correct, btw).
>
> Well, aren't you the beacon of knowledge?
My explanation depended on experience, not knowledge.
> Actually I am aware of
> titles and collective nouns as well. They can take either singular /or/
> plural when, as in this case, fitting. The class is meeting. The class is
> meeting what? The class are meeting. (American Heritage Dictionary). And
> notably british usage tends toward the plural especially with "government"
> and "group." You know them. They live mostly on that island northwest of
> France.
That's irrelevant, all of it, especially your particular awareness. The
Trial of Dr. Adams might be a better resource than AHD for your purpose, if
I may be so irrelevant, and where you'll find out that British English is
much less formal in its usage than US English.
Karla referred to a work, a famous work, not to gates as such. Why don't you
admit that you can't justify this usage: Herman Wouk's The Winds of War were
made into a TV series? Or this: Herman Wouk wrote War and Remembrance and
they became a bestseller?
>
>>>> You walked among the men
>>>> reading off their names
>>>> those Burghers of Calais
>>>
>>> Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I don't
>>> like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
>
>> You know why this is very very stupid, now, right?
>
> You know why I don't care what you say, right? Don't lose the attitude
> though. It's amusing.
kiss my ass
Sick Mind
"Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>>> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>>>> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>>>> You could be God, you're so far away
>>>>>
>>>>> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
>>>>> reading at the Gates of Hell
>>>>> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
>>>>> parked cars in plain sight
>>>>> wordless, no torch to burn
>>>>> which probably made a difference
>>>>> I turned away
>>>>> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
>>>> Gates ~ their shadow?
>>> It's a big sculpture and the 'title' of the same work, so its singular
>>> agreement is correct (not are correct, btw).
>> Well, aren't you the beacon of knowledge?
> My explanation depended on experience, not knowledge.
Have you "experienced" the last line of Karla's poem? "the Burghers of
Calais are greening"? So are the Burghers greening or the work of art?
>> Actually I am aware of
>> titles and collective nouns as well. They can take either singular /or/
>> plural when, as in this case, fitting. The class is meeting. The class
>> is
>> meeting what? The class are meeting. (American Heritage Dictionary).
>> And
>> notably british usage tends toward the plural especially with
>> "government"
>> and "group." You know them. They live mostly on that island northwest
>> of
>> France.
> That's irrelevant, all of it, especially your particular awareness. The
> Trial of Dr. Adams might be a better resource than AHD for your purpose,
> if
> I may be so irrelevant, and where you'll find out that British English is
> much less formal in its usage than US English.
>
> Karla referred to a work, a famous work, not to gates as such. Why don't
> you
> admit that you can't justify this usage: Herman Wouk's The Winds of War
> were
> made into a TV series? Or this: Herman Wouk wrote War and Remembrance and
> they became a bestseller?
I clearly indicated that the plural /could/ be used "when ... fitting."
It is not fitting in the cases you cite here, nor would I hope to prove any
such thing.
>>>>> You walked among the men
>>>>> reading off their names
>>>>> those Burghers of Calais
>>>>
>>>> Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I don't
>>>> like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
>>> You know why this is very very stupid, now, right?
>> You know why I don't care what you say, right? Don't lose the attitude
>> though. It's amusing.
> kiss my ass
The one attached to your neck?
Yoo hoo.
Stuart Leichter
Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/9/06 7:36 PM:
>
> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>
>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>
> Is greening?
>
>
That's a very cool option, but it alters the poem. It puts too much emphasis
on Rodin and removes the heroism from the original stand-up guys. It shifts
the honor from the object(s) to the language and back to the
writer/author/poet, perhaps a tad ostentatiously.
Karla
Mind says...
>
>
>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>
>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>
> Is greening?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Les-bourgeois-de-Calais.jpg
--
--
Sick Mind
"Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>>
>> Is greening?
> That's a very cool option,
Aha, so there are options now. You seemed adamant before to say there
were no options.
> but it alters the poem. It puts too much emphasis
> on Rodin and removes the heroism from the original stand-up guys.
Rowan and Martin?
> It shifts
> the honor
"Greening" is an honor?
> from the object(s) to the language and back to the
> writer/author/poet, perhaps a tad ostentatiously.
I don't like Calais on mine.
~~
Sick Mind
Sick Mind
"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
> Sick Mind says...
>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>> Is greening?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Les-bourgeois-de-Calais.jpg
http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/rodin/rodin_burghers.html
Stuart Leichter
Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/9/06 8:36 PM:
>
> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>
>> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>
>>> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>>>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>>>
>>> Is greening?
>
>> That's a very cool option,
>
> Aha, so there are options now. You seemed adamant before to say there
> were no options.
>
>> but it alters the poem. It puts too much emphasis
>> on Rodin and removes the heroism from the original stand-up guys.
>
> Rowan and Martin?
>
>> It shifts
>> the honor
>
> "Greening" is an honor?
Not in Karla's imagery there, of course not. The poem or poet, like the
sculptures or Rodin, means to honor the stand-up guys.
Your horse is dead, stop it.
Sick Mind
"Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>> "Greening" is an honor?
> Not in Karla's imagery there, of course not. The poem or poet, like the
> sculptures or Rodin, means to honor the stand-up guys.
>
> Your horse is dead, stop it.
One last time, because this is boring me now much more than it is
boring you, look at the last three lines:
"we are politicians, you must not be polite"
"and turn away"
"the Burghers of Calais are greening"
Now tell me what has turning away to do with honoring? Would it be
polite to turn away in that case?
Now try to remember I am the guy who says that these might go /either/
way, singular or plural. I can see arguments for one way and arguments for
the other. You are the absolute moron whose horse is dead. Frankly I do
not care if Karla said plainly she meant one way or the other, the case is
not there even if /she/ thinks so. I am still not convinced the Philip Roth
quote she discussed was "dada-ist." She is however obviously very clever
and started a very lively discussion.
~~
Sick Mind
Karla
Mind says...
>
>
>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>> Sick Mind says...
>
>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>>>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>
>>> Is greening?
I provided the link to a picture of the sculptures at Stanford so you could
readily see that there are six separate sculptures. In fact, each sculpture has
it's own engraved title. Plus, we walked among, around, between and beside them
as I wrote and you quoted.
"You walked among the men
reading off their names"
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Les-bourgeois-de-Calais.jpg
>
>
>http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/rodin/rodin_burghers.html
The other Rodin burghers are greening too!
Wow!
Karla
PS I won't be your Yoko Ono.
--
--
ggamble
<boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>You are the absolute moron whose horse is dead.
The cattle are apparently still alive.
Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
To warm the heart or ease the mind in any way
Oh, but you had a pail and shovel when you were just a child
Starfish and seashells all in my memory are filed
Your parents called a doctor when you stepped on a nail
He stopped the blood and cleaned wound to spare your life so frail
I read that you recovered, that was long ago
You must be married now so lovely you should know
Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
Your own children soon will play there as you give a kiss to each
I am ready now to face the dreary winter day
It's time to tend the hungry cattle, they surely need their hay
(c) 2003 Sick Mind
Sick Mind
"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
> Sick Mind says...
>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>> Sick Mind says...
>>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>>>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>>>> Is greening?
> I provided the link to a picture of the sculptures at Stanford so you
> could
> readily see that there are six separate sculptures.
Does Rodin know about this?
> In fact, each sculpture has
> it's own engraved title. Plus, we walked among, around, between and beside
> them
> as I wrote and you quoted.
>
> "You walked among the men
> reading off their names"
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Les-bourgeois-de-Calais.jpg
>>http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/rodin/rodin_burghers.html
> The other Rodin burghers are greening too!
The only "Rodin" who counts.
> Wow!
>
> Karla
>
> PS I won't be your Yoko Ono.
Agreed.
But I wasn't complaining about your choices of singular and plural,
merely curious. I still believe the case for one or the other is not strong
enough, certainly not strong enough for Stuart to call me "very, very
stupid."
~~
Sick Mind
Central CPU
"Sick Mind" <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>>> You know why I don't care what you say, right? Don't lose the attitude
>>> though. It's amusing.
>> kiss my ass
> The one attached to your neck?
Not to interrupt, but doesn't the Associated Press Stylebook, which you
have often preferred, defended and extolled, indicate that that collective
nouns take singular verbs and only that.
~~
Central CPU
Stuart Leichter
Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/9/06 9:18 PM:
>
> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>
>> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>
>>> "Greening" is an honor?
>
>> Not in Karla's imagery there, of course not. The poem or poet, like the
>> sculptures or Rodin, means to honor the stand-up guys.
>>
>> Your horse is dead, stop it.
>
> One last time, because this is boring me now much more than it is
> boring you, look at the last three lines:
>
> "we are politicians, you must not be polite"
> "and turn away"
> "the Burghers of Calais are greening"
>
> Now tell me what has turning away to do with honoring? Would it be
> polite to turn away in that case?
I have looked again at those last 3 lines. I'm truly sorry if my calling you
stupid offended you. I meant no offense. Do you have a preference for what
would describe your incompetence?
>
> Now try to remember I am the guy who says that these might go /either/
> way, singular or plural. I can see arguments for one way and arguments for
> the other.
I can't remember it that way, but I remember it was about the Gates of Hell
rendering, not the Burghers of Calais statues.
Sick Mind
"Central CPU" <centr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> "Sick Mind" <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
>> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>>> Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>>>> You know why I don't care what you say, right? Don't lose the attitude
>>>> though. It's amusing.
>>> kiss my ass
>> The one attached to your neck?
> Not to interrupt, but doesn't the Associated Press Stylebook, which
> you have often preferred, defended and extolled, indicate that collective
> nouns take singular verbs and only that.
You mustn't try to interpret the Holy Scriptures on your own. Always
consult me. The AP does something quite often that I will now describe to
you only with the understanding that it cannot be verified publicly. The AP
often "recasts" sentences to avoid controversies in spelling and grammar.
While they are quite authoritative on matters of spelling and grammar it is
not their primary purpose or intention.
Take the sentence, "The group is collecting stamps." That could mean
they are collecting one set of stamps for the entire group. "The group are
collecting stamps," while perhaps more indicative that members are each
collecting their own set is still not entirely clear. The dilemma is
resolved by "recasting" the sentence, "Each member of the group is
collecting a set of stamps." When choosing the singular or plural is a
judgment call that call is sometimes avoided by recasting. It is true that
they will only use singular verbs with collective nouns, but then only when
it is grammatically correct, that is when the subject is acting as a unitary
subject. There are times when groups act as individuals not as a unit, but
these are recast, avoided.
~~
Sick Mind
HTH
Sick Mind
"Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>> ... look at the last three lines:
>>
>> "we are politicians, you must not be polite"
>> "and turn away"
>> "the Burghers of Calais are greening"
>>
>> Now tell me what has turning away to do with honoring? Would it be
>> polite to turn away in that case?
> I have looked again at those last 3 lines. I'm truly sorry if my calling
> you
> stupid offended you. I meant no offense. Do you have a preference for what
> would describe your incompetence?
Call it my "effulgence." It is more accurate anyway.
>> Now try to remember I am the guy who says that these might go /either/
>> way, singular or plural. I can see arguments for one way and arguments
>> for
>> the other.
> I can't remember it that way, but I remember it was about the Gates of
> Hell
> rendering, not the Burghers of Calais statues.
You seem convinced that there is one right answer and you have it. Did
you know I often have the same problem? The difference is that I don't try
to prove it until I am certain I can.
~~
Sick Mind
Karla
wrote:
>
>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>> Sick Mind says...
>
>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>>>> Sick Mind says...
>
>>>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>>>>>> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>
>>>>> Is greening?
>
>> I provided the link to a picture of the sculptures at Stanford so you
>> could
>> readily see that there are six separate sculptures.
>
> Does Rodin know about this?
Rodin knew that the first time his burghers were shown, they were elevated
against his wishes. If Sophocles heard it, I trust Rodin sees them now at
Stanford, those Burghers of Calais.
>> In fact, each sculpture has
>> it's own engraved title. Plus, we walked among, around, between and beside
>> them
>> as I wrote and you quoted.
>>
>> "You walked among the men
>> reading off their names"
>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Les-bourgeois-de-Calais.jpg
>
>>>http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/rodin/rodin_burghers.html
>
>> The other Rodin burghers are greening too!
>
> The only "Rodin" who counts.
This must be one of those times you assert one right answer.
>> Wow!
>>
>> Karla
>>
>> PS I won't be your Yoko Ono.
>
> Agreed.
>
> But I wasn't complaining about your choices of singular and plural,
>merely curious. I still believe the case for one or the other is not strong
>enough, certainly not strong enough for Stuart to call me "very, very
>stupid."
It was your swiss cheese and mushrooms that he called stupid, not you.*
That's like me taking your swiss cheese and mushrooms comments personally
when I'm sure you had only the best intentions.
>" * Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I don't
> like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
> You know why this is very very stupid, now, right?"
This link provides insight into Rodin's intentions.
http://www.musee-rodin.fr/welcome.htm
Does your dictionary have a definition for 'greening'?
Karla
>~~
>Sick Mind
>
>
>
Sick Mind
"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
"Sick Mind" <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>> Sick Mind says...
>>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>>>> Sick Mind says...
>>>>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>>>>>> Is greening?
>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Les-bourgeois-de-Calais.jpg
>>>>http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/cas/fnart/rodin/rodin_burghers.html
Was I successful?
>>> Wow!
>>>
>>> Karla
>>>
>>> PS I won't be your Yoko Ono.
>> Agreed.
>>
>> But I wasn't complaining about your choices of singular and plural,
>>merely curious. I still believe the case for one or the other is not
>>strong
>>enough, certainly not strong enough for Stuart to call me "very, very
>>stupid."
> It was your swiss cheese and mushrooms that he called stupid, not you.*
I am humbled.
> That's like me taking your swiss cheese and mushrooms comments personally
> when I'm sure you had only the best intentions.
You are a living saint, and correct.
>>" * Does those has swiss cheese and mushrooms? Those are good, but I
>>don't
>> like Calais on mine, just ketchup or else swiss cheese and mushrooms.
>> You know why this is very very stupid, now, right?"
> This link provides insight into Rodin's intentions.
> http://www.musee-rodin.fr/welcome.htm
>
> Does your dictionary have a definition for 'greening'?
Not specifically, but "bluing," "yellowing" and "tanning" have
definitions.
Poetry often has wisdom beyond the obvious. You have bunches of that
as well, apparently, no?
~~
Sick Mind
Will Dockery
ggamble wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:18:54 GMT, "Sick Mind" wrote:
>
> Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
>
> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
> And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
> To warm the heart or ease the mind in any way
>
> Oh, but you had a pail and shovel when you were just a child
> Starfish and seashells all in my memory are filed
> Your parents called a doctor when you stepped on a nail
> He stopped the blood and cleaned wound to spare your life so frail
>
> I read that you recovered, that was long ago
> You must be married now so lovely you should know
> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> Your own children soon will play there as you give a kiss to each
>
> I am ready now to face the dreary winter day
> It's time to tend the hungry cattle, they surely need their hay
>
> (c) 2003 Sick Mind
http://www.mailarchive.ca/lists/alt.arts.poetry.comments/2005-12/2892...
|Pete The Dog
|
|Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
|
| He would accompany
| anyone going for a walk.
| It was like having a pet
| without vet bills..
|
| You could shoo him
| from your compost bin
| just by knocking on the window
| and scowling..
|
| Since his owners moved,
| bunnies are munching
| complacently on my chives;
| there are deer droppings
| in the backyard.
|
| The police cruisers
| and social workers' sedans
| are never seen in the neighborhood anymore..
|
| Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
|
| ggamble
--
The Ride [Combat Zone]
Lyrics/Vocals by Will Dockery
Music by The Shadowville Allstars
Guitar: Dennis Beck
Bass: Jordan Beck
Drums: John Phillips
http://www.myspace.com/shadowvilleallstars
"Ozone Stigmata" by Will Dockery
http://www.myspace.com/willdockery
ggamble
<boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Poetry often has wisdom beyond the obvious.
Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
Dennis M. Hammes
/Those Magnificent Men in their Flying Machines/, Fox, 1965, was too
early to have been recorded in Dolby, but did have a contrived, if
undramatic, slightly-animated musical Intermission that was retained
in the 1995 138-min single-tape VHS release.
The 6-hour, made for PBS release of /Shogun/, the 4-hour, made-for-TV
releases of /Masada/ ("The Antagonists"), /Dune/, and /Lonesome
Dove/, do not have Intermissions so much as Commercial, even
Calendar, Breaks, which seems to be what actually Happened to
Intermissions.
The tour-de-fource (four-night) simulcast (sound by NPR FM stereo,
video by PBS TV) presentation of /Der Ring des Niebelungen/ in 1990
(Met, Levine, von Stade, Jerusalem, Moll, Norman, et al, 2.5, 3.0,
3.5, and 4.5 hours) was broadcast with brief station idents replacing
the entr'acts. /Nobody/ has that much /sitzfleisch/.
--
-------(m+
~/:o)_|
Thistles have been the favorite food of songbirds for eons.
http://scrawlmark.org
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Well, aren't you the beacon of knowledge?
>
Reference to the Burghers of Calais would make him the bacon of
knowledge, esp. with mushrooms.
>
>
> Actually I am aware of
> titles and collective nouns as well. They can take either singular /or/
> plural when, as in this case, fitting.
>
When the group act/condition as one, its number is singular. When
its members act/condition severally, its number is plural.
And the American Heritage Dictionary is a known ass on other
subjects as well.
The class is meeting.
The class are writing their papers.
The class is hearing the President.
The class are meeting the President.
The class are having a fitting.
The class are wearing uniforms.
>
> The class is meeting. The class is
> meeting what? The class are meeting. (American Heritage Dictionary). And
> notably british usage tends toward the plural especially with "government"
> and "group." You know them. They live mostly on that island northwest of
> France.
I live mostly on that big island (it's surrounded by water) northwest
of Cuba.
Part of "it" speak something they insist is "Spanish," part speak
something they insist is "French," part speak something they insist
is "English" (claims routinely repudiated by all three parent
tongues), but my part speak American, a language whose inestimable
versatility, larceny, and Authority are such that it's whatever I say
it is.
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Have you "experienced" the last line of Karla's poem? "the Burghers of
> Calais are greening"? So are the Burghers greening or the work of art?
>
Yes, actually, and both. The work of art is turning green (cupric
carbonate, verdigris), and the current Burghers of Calais are jealous
of the old Burghers of Calais, having done nothing like inspiring a
World-Famous Work of Art in their tenures, merely the occasional
sun-fried green tomato against the front door, which may or not be an
odd thing to throw at a Diet, being usually a diet of worms.
And if you don't like a fried green tomato, you can always diet.
Dennis M. Hammes
"Are greening," as the individual figures were not recast to form the
monument, but merely arranged on an individual basis on individual
bases on Rodin's instructions.
This is why nobody knows if a given display is actually correct,
as the bases are on his instructions.
But the work is such that the only actual question in any given
week is whether the greening, which is apparent at a distance, is due
to verdigris or to postdeluvial lichen.
Dennis M. Hammes
What he said.
The symbol as put matches the poem's overall flavor that the
heroisms of Old are lately no more than greening relics.
Dennis M. Hammes
> "Stuart Leichter" <leic...@bellsouth.net> wrote
>
>
>>Sick Mind at boro...@worldnet.att.net wrote
>
>
>>>"Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>
>>>>the Burghers of Calais are greening
>>>
>>>Is greening?
>
>
>>That's a very cool option,
>
>
> Aha, so there are options now. You seemed adamant before to say there
> were no options.
Tsk. There are /always/ options for the writer, which condition is
addressed by his reply as your question was put as writer, i.e., as
an option of composition not interprettion.
But the only option for a /reader/ is to figure out what the
writer put in the case and why.
One may thus determine that the writer was an ass in a case, but
that cannot be determined without determining what the writer
actually put.
In the case, the writer actually put the case, and you didn't.
>
>>but it alters the poem. It puts too much emphasis
>>on Rodin and removes the heroism from the original stand-up guys.
>
>
> Rowan and Martin?
Martian and Louis, actually; the work is French, and was commissioned
by a concept as alien to its own time as the act was to its.
I'll admit that it's not my favorite Martian, but its power and
language are compelling nonetheless.
>
>>It shifts
>>the honor
>
>
> "Greening" is an honor?
As park bronzes are honors, keeping them long enough to green is a
further honor.
And jealousy is an honor in its own pouty little way.
>
>
>>from the object(s) to the language and back to the
>>writer/author/poet, perhaps a tad ostentatiously.
>
>
> I don't like Calais on mine.
>
You can hardly expect to digest Calais of Soul without the bacon of
knowledge, or, in your case, the bacon of hope, since knowledge seems
alien to your menu.
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> Your horse is dead, stop it.
>
It seems to have stopped by itself.
Unless he beat it to death, in which case we're too late...
Dennis M. Hammes
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:18:54 GMT, "Sick Mind"
> <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>>You are the absolute moron whose horse is dead.
>
>
> The cattle are apparently still alive.
That's low, but it may cow him yet.
>
> Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
>
> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
> And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
> To warm the heart or ease the mind in any way
>
> Oh, but you had a pail and shovel when you were just a child
> Starfish and seashells all in my memory are filed
> Your parents called a doctor when you stepped on a nail
> He stopped the blood and cleaned wound to spare your life so frail
>
> I read that you recovered, that was long ago
> You must be married now so lovely you should know
> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> Your own children soon will play there as you give a kiss to each
>
> I am ready now to face the dreary winter day
> It's time to tend the hungry cattle, they surely need their hay
>
> (c) 2003 Sick Mind
>
>
>
>
>
Dennis M. Hammes
>
> I have looked again at those last 3 lines. I'm truly sorry if my calling you
> stupid offended you. I meant no offense. Do you have a preference for what
> would describe your incompetence?
>
Well, there's the Coyote.
And, of course, there's the anvil...
Dennis M. Hammes
> "Karla" <kar...@sbcNOSPAMglobal.net> wrote
>
>
>>I provided the link to a picture of the sculptures at Stanford so you
>>could
>>readily see that there are six separate sculptures.
>
>
> Does Rodin know about this?
>
Yes. And each is thus "having" its own personal reaction to their
"collective" decision.
Dennis M. Hammes
>>
>>Does your dictionary have a definition for 'greening'?
>
>
> Not specifically, but "bluing," "yellowing" and "tanning" have
> definitions.
>
Then what of "whiting," "blacking," "purpling," "silvering,"
"graying," "bronzing," "pinking," "Browning," and "Redding"?
Will Dockery
ggamble wrote:
2003 Sick Mind
http://www.mailarchive.ca/lists/alt.arts.poetry.comments/2005-12/2892...
|Pete The Dog
|
|Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
|
| He would accompany
| anyone going for a walk.
| It was like having a pet
| without vet bills..
|
| You could shoo him
| from your compost bin
| just by knocking on the window
| and scowling..
|
| Since his owners moved,
| bunnies are munching
| complacently on my chives;
| there are deer droppings
| in the backyard.
|
| The police cruisers
| and social workers' sedans
| are never seen in the neighborhood anymore..
|
| Pete the dog is gone from across the street.
|
| ggamble
This Gamble shit is easy... heh.
--
"Black spirits and white, red spirits and gray,
Mingle, mingle, mingle, you that mingle may!"
-Thomas Middleton
Diana
Karla wrote:
> In article <1155115246.5...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Diana
> >> Karla
<poem snipped and wheeled down below>
> >
> >Thanks for this, Karla.
> >I've read it a few times now.
> >Interesting 8-4 8-4 8-4 7 stanza line pattern. Homemade pattern or
> >established one? I only comment on that initial facet of your poem
> >because I'm trying to get a feel for forms and really blow goats at it.
> >For right now, anyways.
>
> Hi Diana!
Hey again, Karla! :)
>
> I'd like to think that each stanza has the number of lines it needs. Maybe I'm
> being swayed lately by Kierkegaard who stood toe-to-toe with Plato.
Ok. Does "for now swaying" Kierkegaard hold a bit of an edge? Or is it
a tie?
>
> >'tis late so
> >watch this space for C&C.
> >(I know, I'm not so great at getting back to an intended reply. But I
> >will. Promise.)
>
> You read my poem! Thanks!
Of course I read it. And I read it again. I like that you can read it
as if it had two layers (of course that's how I see it on the reader's
side of the poem. It may not be intended that way at all.)
I have mostly comments with a little criticism thrown in at various
and sundry points. I hope you don't mind much.
I'm going to lift your poem up on the ol' dolly and place it a few
lines down so I can comment:
In terms of form, another thing I enjoyed was the repitition/use of the
phrase "turn away".
It ocurred in all of your odd numbered strophes in lines 7.
What was interesting to me was the difference/juxtaposition in regards
to the "turning away" at the Gates of Hell vs. not turning away when
The Burghers of Calais are involved. I'll extrapolate further later on.
>
> >Karla wrote:
> >> You could be God, you're so far away
Interesting title. It immediately sets me to wondering about the
relationship of the narrator to this possible "God". It adds mystery to
the reading of the poem. My first thought is: Is there and upwords
(pedastal) or horizontal (long distance) relationship? Both? Neither?
> >>
> >> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
> >> reading at the Gates of Hell
> >> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
> >> parked cars in plain sight
> >> wordless, no torch to burn
> >> which probably made a difference
I think you set the scene of your poem quite well. I've got concretes
to enable me to picture the place. Your poem nudges me to recall what
All Soul's Eve is all about. It fits in perfectly, of course, with
Rodin's Gates of Hell. I will, however, admit to being completely
ignorant of the reference to Rodin until I googled The Burghers of
Calais.
IMO, Line 6 doesnt add much to your poem. It seems like filler to me
because I can infer what is being said from the lines preceeding it.
> >> I turned away
> >> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
This is the first "turned away" if you don't count taking turns reading
at the "Gates of Hell".
Comma after uninspired?
I wonder why the N was uninspired. Maybe there's something Poets/others
find fantastical about viewing the Gates at night.
> >>
> >> You walked among the men
> >> reading off their names
> >> those Burghers of Calais
> >> You could be God, you're so far away
I like this first line. Not only does it bring in the "you", it also
makes me think of a god-like figure because of the "walked among the
men".
I'm not crazy about the informal "those". We were just introduced to
them. I wonder if this is to set up some sort of feeling towards them.
Are both of these sculptures located near each other or share the same
time frame. I know, silly, but there seems to be memory involved in the
four line strophes.
-----
Ok. Ran out of time. I'll finish up with this tomorrow. Hope I'm
helpful rather than blabbery.
Diana.
> >>
> >> The son of Morgan won tonight
> >> (this is how we pray)
> >> and I think, I should have looked harder
> >> at the Gates of Hell
> >> for a keyhole, a door
> >> in full sunlight it's one bronze piece
> >> I turned away
> >> wanting to walk with you in the cool of the day
> >>
> >> You probably asked me
> >> why six men were cast there
> >> those Burghers of Calais
> >> You could be God, you're so far away
> >>
> >> Green is the color of politicians
> >> and it's fitting that the Gates of Hell
> >> casts a giant shadow wherever burghers gather
> >> in the new world
> >> green peace, greenbacks, green party
> >> though I remember six rich men who
> >> didn't turn away
> >> that is my overdue answer
> >>
> >> It was a gravel garden, remember
> >> and I am bronze, maybe a bell
> >> praying with the Burghers of Calais
> >> You could be God, you're so far away
> >>
> >> You could be God, you're so far away
> >> but a phonecall near, it is my turn
> >> Here is Apple in the heart of Silicon Valley
> >> did you eat, do you know me, am I good
> >> we are politicians, you must not be polite
> >> and turn away
> >> the Burghers of Calais are greening
> >>
> Karla
>
> >Diana
> >
>
>
> --
> --
Diana
Well, I suppose it is a few tomorrows later. I'll keep the rest of my
comments short. You may have already begun to revise. And my timing on
commenting is definitely off.
> > >>
> > >> The son of Morgan won tonight
> > >> (this is how we pray)
These lines threw me for a loop at first. Mordred the Traitor. When I
first read the lines, they jarred for me because I was like "Woah, why
this allusion?" It felt like it might be a bit much for the poem, as it
took my mind away from Rodin, and led it to Arthurian legend. Then I
thought Dante, Canto xxxii of _The Inferno_, which reminds me of The
Gates of Hell because it was one of Rodin's influences for the piece,
and so was able to integrate the "son of Morgan" reference with
everything else mentioned.
IMO, the allusion still may be a bit much for the poem, but it could be
me reading in a dense way. My mind really wants for there to be a
continued association with Mordred.
Morgan does remind me of apples, Avalon, and healing. (Fixing the
greening problem?)
> > >> and I think, I should have looked harder
> > >> at the Gates of Hell
> > >> for a keyhole, a door
> > >> in full sunlight it's one bronze piece
> > >> I turned away
> > >> wanting to walk with you in the cool of the day
> > >>
> > >> You probably asked me
> > >> why six men were cast there
> > >> those Burghers of Calais
> > >> You could be God, you're so far away
> > >>
> > >> Green is the color of politicians
> > >> and it's fitting that the Gates of Hell
> > >> casts a giant shadow wherever burghers gather
> > >> in the new world
> > >> green peace, greenbacks, green party
> > >> though I remember six rich men who
> > >> didn't turn away
> > >> that is my overdue answer
I like the implied contrast of Burghers proper to burghers lowercase. I
read it as the essence/concept of the Burghers at Calais and their
sacrifice and how it can be related to a more modern setting.
> > >>
> > >> It was a gravel garden, remember
> > >> and I am bronze, maybe a bell
> > >> praying with the Burghers of Calais
> > >> You could be God, you're so far away
Again there seems to be memory involved. I contrast the bells from the
first stanza to this one. Now the narrator is not just hearing the
bells, they seem to have, perhaps, become the bells and are now a part
of this scene rather than walking near The Gates of Hell.
> > >>
> > >> You could be God, you're so far away
> > >> but a phonecall near, it is my turn
> > >> Here is Apple in the heart of Silicon Valley
> > >> did you eat, do you know me, am I good
This is all great! Did you want any punctuation after good? It bleeds
into "we" on the next line.
> > >> we are politicians, you must not be polite
> > >> and turn away
> > >> the Burghers of Calais are greening
I enjoyed the closing lines.
Thanks again, Karla. Very thought provoking.
P.S. I'm sorry if all the ">> >>'s" are confusing. I replied to myself
this final time because I wanted to keep all my comments in one place
so they weren't like little post-its all over the thread. I'm hoping it
didn't make it harder to read.
> > >>
>
>
> > Karla
> >
> > >Diana
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
Your AJ
Diana wrote:
> Karla wrote:
> I hope you don't mind much.
How polite of one FAT twit to another!
Too bad neither of you can attract men, eh, FAT idiots?
Wouldn't you love to think a man loved your FAT folds?
--
-------------------------------------------
AJ - http://ClitIn.Com e In.
(800 folders. -- kiddie-filtered -- FREE,
Usenet Porn.)
Will Dockery
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:18:54 GMT, "Sick Mind"
> <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >You are the absolute moron whose horse is dead.
> The cattle are apparently still alive.
>
> Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
>
> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
> And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
> To warm the heart or ease the mind in any way
Did you ask and recieve permission to repost this poem by Sick Mind, ggamble?
Did you get permission for the other dozen or more times you reposted this poem... since the a.a.p.c. regulars (not to mention Google) consider reposting potery without the permission of the poet to be copyright abuse?
Just curious, as I'm sure PJR will be, also.
qwerty...@gmail.com
;)
Will Dockery
<qwertyh123456> wrote in message
news:c14e9de8-b67c-42e3...@googlegroups.com...
not do it.
So, with the wishes of many poets in mind, I usually opt for an /excerpt/
from the poem, usually the first few lines or complete thought/image.
qwerty...@gmail.com
Will Dockery
>
> > I know enough poets do consider it to be an infringement on their poems to
> > not do it.
>
> > So, with the wishes of many poets in mind, I usually opt for an /excerpt/
> > from the poem, usually the first few lines or complete thought/image.
>
> well, that addresses the concerns of common courtesy (and it is good that you consider common courtesy, BTW) but I think your last few posts have been lambasting others for copyright abuse which makes it seem that you personally believe that copying a poem from one part of this web site to another constitutes copyright abuse. Is that the case?
So my request is always if you use my poem, give me a credit line.
Other factors may or may not be invilved but that's a good starting point I'd say.
Will Dockery
qwertyh123456 wrote:
>
> well, that addresses the concerns of common courtesy (and it is good that
> you consider common courtesy, BTW)
> but I think your last few posts have been lambasting others for copyright
> abuse which makes it seem that you
> personally believe that copying a poem from one part of this web site to
> another constitutes copyright abuse. Is that
> the case?
situation?
Will Dockery
news:d70a8ca6-48ce-48a6...@googlegroups.com...
>Will Dockery wrote:
>> > Will Dockery wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:45:38 PM UTC-4, ggamble wrote:
>
> >> > >You are the absolute moron whose horse is dead.
>
> >> > The cattle are apparently still alive.
>
> >> > Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
>
> >> > Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> >> > On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
> >> > And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
> >> <snipped copyrighted poetry>
>
> >> Did you ask and recieve permission to repost this poem by Sick Mind,
> >> ggamble?
>
> >> Did you get permission for the other dozen or more times you reposted
> >> this poem... since the a.a.p.c. regulars (not to mention Google)
> >> consider
> >> reposting potery without the permission of the poet to be copyright
> >> abuse?
>
> >> Just curious, as I'm sure PJR will be, also.
>
> > You consider it copyright abuse to move a poem from one spot on this web
> > site to another?
>
> > ;)
>
>> I know enough poets do consider it to be an infringement on their poems
>> to
>> not do it.
>
>> So, with the wishes of many poets in mind, I usually opt for an /excerpt/
>> from the poem, usually the first few lines or complete thought/image.
>
> well, that addresses the concerns of common courtesy (and it is good that
> you consider common courtesy, BTW) but I think your last few posts have
> been lambasting others for copyright abuse which makes it seem that
> the case?
think about it?
--
Check out "Shadowville Speedway / Will Dockery & Henry Conley" -
http://www.reverbnation.com/open_graph/song/8798172
qwerty...@gmail.com
Will Dockery
news:5109d135-0471-44b3...@googlegroups.com...
questions.
What part did I miss?
Will Dockery
> There was only one question, and you didn't answer it. See for yourself.
I remember my answer, and I'm sure I answered the question, then asked Horatio what he thought about his question.
And never heard anything else from him, or anyone, until today.
qwerty...@gmail.com
Will Dockery
> Actually you never asked the question so I acknowledged your response and asked the question again. You proceeded to not answer it a second time so I gave up.
I know enough poets do consider it to be an infringement on their poems to
not do it.
So, with the wishes of many poets in mind, I usually opt for an /excerpt/
from the poem, usually the first few lines or complete thought/image.
So my request is always if you use my poem, give me a credit line.
Other factors may or may not be invilved but that's a good starting point I'd say.
--
Check out "Idle Hour Night / Dockery-Mallard-Snipe" - http://www.reverbnation.com/willdockery/song/15928895-idle-hour-night--dockery-mallard
qwerty...@gmail.com
Will Dockery
"Hieronymous" wrote in message
news:4af02d7b-4675-4101...@googlegroups.com...
>
> FYI, it is definitively not copyright abuse to move
> a poem from one spot on this web site to another.
> Anybody who thinks it is copyright abuse is mistaken.
> HTH & HAND.
You mean to another spot on /this/ website or move the poem to another site?
Of course it can be argued that Usenet isn't exactly a "web site".
Will Dockery
> You can argue whatever you like as soon as you articulate a position.
> Either you personally believe that copying a poem from one Usenet post
> and pasting it to another post constitutes copyright abuse, or you don't.
> My contention is that it does not, ever, under any circumstances, period.
Okay, you mean "Usenet-to-Usenet" reposting, which would be very different from taking the poem from Usenet and posting it on another website, or taking a poem froma website and posting it to Usenet, which has been pretty well established as copyright infringement by most regulars here.
Will Dockery
"Hieronymous" wrote in message
news:6f652bd0-0be5-480b...@googlegroups.com...
> You did respond, but you didn't answer the question asked.
Well if the question is "is Usenet-to-Usenet reposting okay?" I can say
"Yes", since for example poems posted here are understood to be for
commentary, and in context of comment and critique a view of the poem being
examined is useful amnd makes for a better read.
Will Dockery
> I still don't know what point your trying to make,
> and it really doesn't matter one little bit what most
> regulars think about copyright infringement. If you're
> concerned that somebody is making money on your
> stuff, which is what copyright is intended to protect,
> then take your concerns to the appropriate authority.
> If you want more people to listen to your stuff in
> hopes of attracting a greater audience, then my
> advice would be to shut the fuck up about people
> abusing or otherwise infringing on your copyright.
Hold up, you're talking about more than one thing at once here.
Slow dow and think a momnet.
Will Dockery
used to be able to type the word fine, in my youth. I thought the Zorro
material was a strange flashback, but this is even more so to me... comments
and critique welcomed, of course.
"Moments"
O many lipped flower,
harmonic fractal convolution,
holder of the Op Bop in your mouth,
the hot drizzle of your spit.
The Op Bop in your mirror'd two blooms,
awaiting the buzzing fertility root.
Inside your fence is you
sacred place,
where your sounds and your feelings
are your own.
Your skin and flesh and all that is within,
your mentors in Alabama moonlight,
and those that worship your hills.
All that is a part of your kingdom,
you are a muse I look to or use.
Your slow moving liquid is inspiring to me,
I remember how you feel inside.
To bump and rub inside your craving,
expanse of skin, to feel you melt,
to erupt my meltings inside you.
Moments in exile,
moments in these times.
I just remember,
those days when I had that much jam,
your crazy eyes when we jammed love,
lost the sound of your voice when you come,
horse riding child bearing back beat bumping me,
earth mother urge,
spread and be happy,
lets stretch deep and pop,
be fruitful and multiply.
Moments in exile,
to make the hurt pass in days.
-Will Dockery
Will Dockery
>
> LOL. I won't make that mistake again.
> I know better than to c&c poetry for
> people who don't appreciate it.
Sure, that's an easy way out.
Will Dockery
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 08:40:55 GMT, "Sick Mind"
> <boro...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Poetry often has wisdom beyond the obvious.
<excerpted>
> Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
>
> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
> And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
> To warm the heart or ease the mind in any way
<snipped for copyright purposes>
Well, bets are on that PJR will ignore (or pretend he doesn't see) the fact that ggamble, by PJR's logic, commited copyright abuse here.
Well, PJR?
Will Dockery
> > "Hieronymous" wrote in message
>
> > news:6f652bd0-0be5-480b...@googlegroups.com...
>
> >> You did respond, but you didn't answer the question asked.
>
> > Well if the question is "is Usenet-to-Usenet reposting okay?" I can say
> > "Yes",
>
> > since for example poems posted here are understood to be for
> > commentary, and in context of comment and critique a view of the poem being
> > examined is useful amnd makes for a better read.
>
Did you teach ggamble the difference, since that's what this thread is about?
Will Dockery
> stole Squirty's poem as a contribution to a flame war.
I didn't steal his poem, hypocrite.
qwerty...@gmail.com
Copyright protection is legal protection for the commercial value of poetry, not a replacement for moral and ethical considerations as scumbags like george and peter would have you believe.
First, poetry has very little commercial value.
Second, poets with any talent want to be read and have their writing spread far and wide and readily encourage free copying, even well-paid poets like Billy Collins. Good writers can write more, talentless scumbags try to find legal protections, studying copyright laws like lawyers instead of writing.
Reading talentless morons like george and peter brag about their knowledge of copyright law is like reading them bragging about how great they suck cock. Wonderful for them, but why would writers care?
Will Dockery
> Will Dockery wrote:
>> On Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:24:56 AM UTC-4, ggamble wrote:
>
> >> >> > Poetry often has wisdom beyond the obvious.
>
> >> > <excerpted>
>
> >> >> Sand Castles and Fiddler Crabs
>
> >> >> Sand castles and fiddler crabs and families at the beach
> >> >> On a dog-eared page in a poetry book just out of reach
> >> >> And naught else to ponder this frosty winter day
> >> >> To warm the heart or ease the mind in any way
>
> >> > <snipped for copyright purposes>
>
> >> > Well, bets are on that PJR will ignore (or pretend he doesn't see)
> >> > the fact that ggamble, by PJR's logic, commited copyright abuse
> >> > here.
>
> >> > Well, PJR?
>
> >> Sick Mind's poem was quoted as a contribution to a discussion.
reference.
> >> stole Squirty's poem as a contribution to a flame war.
>
> > I didn't steal his poem, hypocrite.
>
> Squirty's poem without his permission
I responded to a post in a thread, I didn't steal a poem.
While in this very thread as well as multiple other times, "ggamble" quotes
Sick Mind's poem, and in your usual hypocrisy you have no problem with that.
And that's kind of an amusing fix you find yourself in.
Here's another example of ggamble reposting the same poem, which he use to
do over and over:
http://groupsrv.com/hobby/post-2516499.html
And so it goes.
Will Dockery
--
Check out "Wobble / W. Dockery & H. Conley" -
http://t.co/lc3OqM0IG1
Will Dockery
"Peter J Ross" wrote:
> Will Dockery wrote:
>
>
You seem to have accidentally snipped the poem, but anyone who wants to read
it can scroll back.
jaon...@gmail.com
> You could be God, you're so far away
>
> On All Soul's Eve, the poets take turns
> reading at the Gates of Hell
> but I came at noon to the sound of bells
> parked cars in plain sight
> wordless, no torch to burn
> which probably made a difference
> I turned away
> uninspired though cool beneath its shadow
>
> You walked among the men
> reading off their names
> those Burghers of Calais
> You could be God, you're so far away
>
> The son of Morgan won tonight
> (this is how we pray)
> and I think, I should have looked harder
> at the Gates of Hell
> for a keyhole, a door
> in full sunlight it's one bronze piece
> I turned away
> wanting to walk with you in the cool of the day
>
> You probably asked me
> why six men were cast there
> those Burghers of Calais
> You could be God, you're so far away
>
> Green is the color of politicians
> and it's fitting that the Gates of Hell
> casts a giant shadow wherever burghers gather
> in the new world
> green peace, greenbacks, green party
> though I remember six rich men who
> didn't turn away
> that is my overdue answer
>
> It was a gravel garden, remember
> and I am bronze, maybe a bell
> praying with the Burghers of Calais
> You could be God, you're so far away
>
> You could be God, you're so far away
> but a phonecall near, it is my turn
> Here is Apple in the heart of Silicon Valley
> did you eat, do you know me, am I good
> we are politicians, you must not be polite
> and turn away
> the Burghers of Calais are greening
>
> Karla