Flip
Doctor Grimm
We shed our desguises
We grew several sizes
got rid of the suprises
We withstood the weather
As we walked together
I felt light as a feather
free of all tethers
and somewhere on this path my baby must have strayed
and somewhere in her heart my image was replaced
I thought I could erase her
So I wouldn't chase her
My words didn't phase her
My feats didn't amaze her
She was't bitter
just a master forgeter
follower of glitter
My button hitter
And someday she woke her head, and wanted it to go away
And oneday I was dead to her in each and every way
Hitting up my friends bong
and trying to stay strong
going over what I did wrong
can't we all just get along
Now I am reeling
Fighting mixed feelings
Poeticly speeling
Momentarily stealing
a ticket to my escape half way around the world
I walked amoung the waved and bumped into my girl
She didn't seem to see me
Or even need me
Her eyes didn't feed me
He words never freed me
I just kept walking
Until the sea drownder her talking
No heartbreak stalking
No frineds staring or gawking
Somehow time did it's job, and everything did a flip
Peaceful is my mind now I am robbed of all your scripts
Chris Keelan
Hash: SHA1
Dateline: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:24:36 GMT: laying low until the bleeding stops,
"Doctor Grimm" <zil...@hotmail.com> transmits:
> The curtain rises
> We shed our desguises
> We grew several sizes
> got rid of the suprises
Yo, yo, yo, come wit me!
Just out of curiosity, are you now P. Diddy? Is it back to Puff Daddy
or does your handle now consist of a play on the name Sean?
~ C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 and Gnu Privacy Guard
<http://www.gnupg.org/>
iD8DBQE8kJBjs7Brp8Mn7wcRAhknAKCI1rv5fGlXBK69ZSj2trnZh169kACfVDUT
/bZjSduOl741yt26TPeK51o=
=PJUo
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Doctor Grimm
on me too. He seems to not be a constructive force....more like a bowel
movement. I guess the expelling of waste is needed. I see all the Flamers
that never give any advice that is helpful found my poetry good enough to
hit with their eye daggers. I do not listen to P. Diddy. Obviously you do.
Sad. He sucks. He must have been the bad seed planted deep in that body of
manuer you walk in, so that you bear nothing here but bitter fruit. I am a
Sachmo fan. Is this because I am black? I respond to you back with two of
your yo-yo's. This is a challenge. Wrtie a poem Chris, or you can be
helpful in your insults. Until then I will not respect your opinion, and
you are wasting the bytes.
Doctor Grimm
"Chris Keelan" <rufm...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:20020314065845.3...@rogers.com...
sophie
> Is this because I am black?
hey!
it's Ali G!
--
sophie
Brutus ad erat forte
Caeser adsum jam
Brutus sic in omnibus
Caeser sic intram
Chris Keelan
Hash: SHA1
Dateline: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 17:48:45 GMT: laying low until the bleeding stops,
"Doctor Grimm" <zil...@hotmail.com> transmits:
[snipping out of order]
> Write a poem Chris, or you can be helpful in your insults.
But you've already told us that you don't revise. So, if you have no
intention of incorporating any feedback into your work, why should
anyone extend him or herself to offer you constructive criticism?
Besides, what do you intend to *learn* from any poem I post here?
How else should I interpret "Those who can do! Those who can't
criticise!" with your lame rant about receiving flames for your work?
How about this:
"P.S. Mort, This ones for you. I never rewrite my poems. they come
out as I type. It is my form. take it or leave it, you shitweasle."
Does that attitude towards writing invite anyting but taunts and
insults?
>I see all the Flamers that never give any advice that is helpful
>found my poetry good enough to hit with their eye daggers.
I give advice that is helpful:
and
are just two recent examples.
Now who exactly were you addressing with:
>I move around, and change my name
>I rhyme or just freely get my burdons off
>And then I get this useless Flame
>It keeps going and never seems to....
>STOP!!!!
You've come into a group of writers who mostly agree that revision is
essential to improvement. You assert that it's not necessary, and post
cliché-ridden, badly-formulated toss-offs, fraught with spelling and
grammatical errors--as what? Proof that *we're* wrong? You want to be
respected? Start by respecting the art that you practise.
We're insulting you because you're insulting the craft that we care
about, and insulting the people who care about that craft.
It's okay to be uninformed. All of us started *somewhere*. But defiant
ignorance tends to piss off those that know more about poetry than you
do and they don't tend to respond kindly.
~ C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 and Gnu Privacy Guard
<http://www.gnupg.org/>
iD8DBQE8kS4Ds7Brp8Mn7wcRAuLcAJ9p+1klVthvLWoG8Ey7Fq5CN2ek1gCdHT2A
cTJs9w+nTEBD+viQuzvp6pk=
=6K7q
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
JAS Carter
spake unto the internet:
>> Write a poem Chris
Did anyone else get a cold chill, as if the kennytroll had risen from
the dead?
Eep!
--
Julie Carter
Dai Crowther
Dai.
"JAS Carter" <jsgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c9d5f2b....@news.supernews.com...
>> Write a poem Chris
Eep!
--
Julie Carter
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.330 / Virus Database: 184 - Release Date: 28/02/02
Doctor Grimm
without the feedback of other poets. So what if I do not have a revisionist
style. That only means I take the reactions, and points of others to keep
in mind for my future works. I feel I have a right to my style, and yet get
advice that is helpful. I ask you...how is it helpful for someone to trash
your work, without pointing out specifics.
"We're insulting you because you're insulting the craft that we care
about, and insulting the people who care about that craft."
I NEVER DREW FIRST BLOOD.
A flamer is not a good person. they are just insulting. If I made comments
about Flamers, it is only the Flamers that need to be insulted. Are you a
Flamer or a poet?
This is not YOUR craft! It is my craft too. You may not like my work, but
I do, and so do plenty of others. In fact I sell them from time to time. I
even have recieved awards. I got plenty of criticism, but since these
people could not hide on the Internet, they had to be civilized about it.
As far as Spelling errors. look over all my work, it was only one post. So
what? Is this an English Grammer Newsgroup, or POETRY?
Doctor Grimm
"Dai Crowther" <d...@dragon-tales.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1016161462.21733....@news.demon.co.uk...
Poopsy Charmicheal
"Doctor Grimm" <zil...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h%mk8.10237$A%3.8...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
> I do want criticism!!! I have been developing my own style for 13 years,
> without the feedback of other poets. So what if I do not have a
revisionist
> style. That only means I take the reactions, and points of others to keep
> in mind for my future works. I feel I have a right to my style, and yet
get
> advice that is helpful. I ask you...how is it helpful for someone to
trash
> your work, without pointing out specifics.
>
> "We're insulting you because you're insulting the craft that we care
> about, and insulting the people who care about that craft."
>
Whoever wrote this is a hopeless idiot. Or they are trying to bait you.
Either way - ignore them. You are allowing yourself to become distracted.
Keep writing.
Poopsy
Doctor Grimm
I read every post before posting. I felt my work wasn't that much worse
than anything else I have seen here. I knew from the constant mean
comments, that certain folks would Flame me, and they did. What is silly,
is I still took the bait.
Doctor Grimm
"Poopsy Charmicheal" <poopsy_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:55nk8.21285$Vx1.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Doctor Grimm
"sophie" <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6KF94Xoz...@blueyonder.co.uk...So what are you saying?
>
> sophie
>
> Brutus ad erat forte
> Caeser adsum jam
> Brutus sic in omnibus
> Caeser sic intram
I see! You have every right to look down on me! I need to know other
languages, to be a valid person. I do not use this word too often, but...
you are Pretentious.
Ich libe dich = Yiddish
Ani ohev otakh = Hebrew
Those are words that are worth saying in a different language. They mean "I
love you". Gotta spread it around. Please no comments about Jews now. I
already had an email calling me a nigger. This is what type of treatment i
got since I started posting here. They used a 3rd party software that
omitted their address. Cowards. I am proud of both of these traits. So
you can see why I am so freaking defensive. I am not Ghetto. I am human.
I have no arrests on my record. Never did much wrong except puffing on a
blunt, and playing the ponies. One question...Is that Latin above? I am
having problems with the translation. Please wait for a correction. My
buddy is good at this.
Doctor Grimm
sophie
>
>"sophie" <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:6KF94Xoz...@blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Doctor Grimm <zil...@hotmail.com> said
>>
>> > Is this because I am black?
>>
>> hey!
>> it's Ali G!
>> --
>So what are you saying?
britjoke.
probably doesn't travel very well.
>>
>> sophie
>>
>> Brutus ad erat forte
>> Caeser adsum jam
>> Brutus sic in omnibus
>> Caeser sic intram
>
>I see! You have every right to look down on me! I need to know other
>languages, to be a valid person.
that kind of wasn't the point.
> I do not use this word too often, but...
>you are Pretentious.
>
>Ich libe dich = Yiddish
Ich liebe dich = German
>Ani ohev otakh = Hebrew
>
>Those are words that are worth saying in a different language. They mean "I
>love you". Gotta spread it around. Please no comments about Jews now.
I'm allowed to make comments about Jews.
> I
>already had an email calling me a nigger. This is what type of treatment i
>got since I started posting here.
if you're accusing posters to aapc of being racist, that's a very
offensive thing to say. and untrue.
>They used a 3rd party software that
>omitted their address. Cowards.
I don't know. sounds to me like deliberate trouble-making rather than
cowardice.
> I am proud of both of these traits.
both of which traits?
> So
>you can see why I am so freaking defensive. I am not Ghetto. I am human.
you could be both, you know.
>I have no arrests on my record.
and who exactly insinuated that you had?
> Never did much wrong except puffing on a
>blunt, and playing the ponies. One question...Is that Latin above? I am
>having problems with the translation.
it's untranslatable. It's latin words arranged in an order that makes
sense to an english person if you read it aloud. as latin, gibberish.
probably another britjoke.
Please tell me, why have you responded to all my posts to you except the
one that suggested you care about your poetry and revise? hmmm?
--
Doctor Grimm
> > > From: "Dennis M. Hammes" <scraw...@arvig.net>
> > > Organization: ScrawlMark Publishing
> > > Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.arts.poetry.comments
> > > Date: M
> > >>>> california is filled with queers, and niggers. i hate it
here. i want
> > >>>> to move. can anyone help me?
> > >>>>.
> > > http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/
> >
>
>
As far as not revising. I do not revise. You may want me too, but I like
it raw. I can use help and constructive critcism for new poetry. Who are
you to say how I use the help? I do need it. As far as the Troll comments
you pointed my way. Read my "Troll" post here.
Doctor Grimm
"sophie" <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Uvhmx2Dj...@blueyonder.co.uk...
JAS Carter
<sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> warbled oh so charmingly:
>>> > Is this because I am black?
How would anyone know you're black?
Julie Carter
--
Who put the ram in the ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong?
JAS Carter
<sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> warbled oh so charmingly:
>if you're accusing posters to aapc of being racist, that's a very
>offensive thing to say. and untrue.
Well, there is at least one bigot posting, though he hasn't managed to
get past my killfile in a long time.
sophie
>Read this sophie. I am from CA.
>> > > From: "Dennis M. Hammes" <scraw...@arvig.net>
>> > > Organization: ScrawlMark Publishing
>> > > Newsgroups: alt.california,alt.arts.poetry.comments
>> > > Date: M
>> > >>>> california is filled with queers, and niggers. i hate it
>here. i want
>> > >>>> to move. can anyone help me?
>> > >>>>.
>> > > http://t-independent.com/scrawlmark-press/
oh christ.
dennis didn't write that; it was posted by aapc's resident moron under
another poster's name in order to smear said poster.
I can honestly assure you that aapc is not populated by racists; except
for said resident (homophobic misogynistic racist braindead) moron.
can't do a lot about him except ignore him.
>As far as not revising. I do not revise.
then you are - at best - foolish.
> You may want me too,
I don't particularly want you to do anything, but if you want to improve
your writing, you need to draft, redraft, and revise.
fact.
--
sophie
Doctor Grimm
away. I got a Nigger email. I am sorry if I am a little sensitive about
it, but that was the first response from this group. I will not say who I
think it is, for I do not know. And even though I have an Idea, I will not
accuse.
Let's just drop it. I come here to get away from being anything but a poet.
Doctor Grimm
"JAS Carter" <jsgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c951494....@news.supernews.com...
JAS Carter
Grimm" <zil...@hotmail.com> warbled oh so charmingly:
>The only way I could figure was my Flip poem had some wording to give it
>away. I got a Nigger email. I am sorry if I am a little sensitive about
>it, but that was the first response from this group. I will not say who I
>think it is, for I do not know. And even though I have an Idea, I will not
>accuse.
>
>Let's just drop it. I come here to get away from being anything but a poet.
1. You can be sensitive about it. You should be sensitive about it.
You should also be careful that the people you are accusing are
actually guilty of something.
2. The original "I hate California" post was posted by chuck lysaght.
Said idiot is also the author of the infamous screed "blacks and jews
suck my dick." I do not know of any non-troll in this newsgroup who
does not want chuckles to be hit by a bus. He is gangrenous.
3. No one here can know anything about you, including your race, your
sex, your politics, anything! without you telling them. You are in
charge of your image here.
4. If someone calls you a "nigger," they are an idiot of the highest
class who is trying to hurt you. If someone says your poem sucks,
it's not necessarily the same thing.
Good luck with your writing.
Doctor Grimm
Idea Neo-impressionist, or just plain Impressionist, would have never made
it. Thank you for calling me foolish. It helps. It does. Very
constructive. I am considering the source here.
Doctor Grimm
"sophie" <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:H+WyF7H+...@blueyonder.co.uk...
j r sherman
>
>I do want criticism!!!
of course. could you please provide a detailed out-line of the EXACT kind of
criticism that you want to read, so that there is no possible way that anyone
could offend you.
i am most sincere in this request.
>I have been developing my own style for 13 years, without the feedback of >other
>poets.
this explains very much about your writing, sir.
>So what if I do not have a revisionist style.
not to be insulting, sir, but i really feel that most people do not really care
what kind of "style" you write in, just as long as it's done well.
i hope that didn't insult you, sir.
>That only means I take the reactions, and points of others to keep
>in mind for my future works.
a sound and sensible reaction, sir. but if someone insults you, even by
accident, i must assume that you completely disregard everything they might have
said?
>I feel I have a right to my style,
you most certainly do. but you really do need to make sure that your "style" is
done well.
>and yet get
>advice that is helpful. I ask you...how is it helpful for someone to trash
>your work, without pointing out specifics.
again, if you would provide and EXACT and detailed outline of the kind of
comments you wish to receive, it would certainly go a long way in helping us
figure out how we can help you.
>"We're insulting you because you're insulting the craft that we care
>about, and insulting the people who care about that craft."
sir, you're not feeling like there are strange, masked men hanging outside your
door, waiting to kidnap you and take you to an undisclosed location, are you?
>I NEVER DREW FIRST BLOOD.
um, of course.
>A flamer is not a good person. they are just insulting. If I made comments
>about Flamers, it is only the Flamers that need to be insulted. Are you a
>Flamer or a poet?
aren't there more than two categories in this discussion?
>This is not YOUR craft! It is my craft too. You may not like my work, but
>I do, and so do plenty of others.
then...um, why are you here? you say you want some feedback, but then you get
upset when you do get feedback.
not to be repetative, but you really do need to put together that detailed
outline so that we know what it is you want to read.
>In fact I sell them from time to time. I
>even have recieved awards.
just like Rob McKuen.
>I got plenty of criticism, but since these
>people could not hide on the Internet, they had to be civilized about it.
not at all. would you care to meet? if you're in my town, feel free to let me
know. we can meet, have coffee, discuss these issues.
i am at your service.
>As far as Spelling errors. look over all my work, it was only one post. So
>what? Is this an English Grammer Newsgroup, or POETRY?
well, i could be wrong, and please correct me if i am, but doesn't poetry use
grammar?
i mean think about it. if someone paid you to paint their house, but you didn't
use any paint to do it, wouldn't they have a right to be wee bit upset with you?
most sincerely,
j r sherman
Doctor Grimm
cliché. Specifics. Not just slamming me like I do not deserve to post
here. Oh well. I will keep on posting, and not respond to the ones on high
horses.
Dr. Grimm
"j r sherman" <jr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a6t8m...@drn.newsguy.com...
Chris Keelan
Hash: SHA1
Dateline: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:51:09 GMT: laying low until the bleeding
stops, "Doctor Grimm" <zil...@hotmail.com> transmits:
> I do want criticism!!! I have been developing my own style for 13 years,
> without the feedback of other poets. So what if I do not have a revisionist
> style.
We have something in common. Neither one of us knows what you're
talking about.
> That only means I take the reactions, and points of others to keep
> in mind for my future works.
How far in the future? Most of us don't have a strong ability to delay
gratification THAT LONG.
> I feel I have a right to my style, and yet get
> advice that is helpful.
You're being told that your style *is* the problem. Our advice doesn't
get more helpful than that. It's broke. Don't bother fixing it. Try
something else.
> I ask you...how is it helpful for someone to trash
> your work, without pointing out specifics.
I've told you; nothing in your behaviour here has indicated that
specifics are going to help you in the least. We're supposed to write
a detailed critique of your work for you to say, in response, "Thanks,
I'll keep it in mind." If I'm going to waste my time, I might as well
have fun doing it.
>
> "We're insulting you because you're insulting the craft that we care
> about, and insulting the people who care about that craft."
>
> I NEVER DREW FIRST BLOOD.
So what?
>
> A flamer is not a good person. they are just insulting. If I made comments
> about Flamers, it is only the Flamers that need to be insulted. Are you a
> Flamer or a poet?
J'ai presque poet. I don't care whether you consider me a flamer or
not.
>
> This is not YOUR craft! It is my craft too. You may not like my work, but
> I do, and so do plenty of others. In fact I sell them from time to time.
BIG FUCKING DEAL! That is a statement about *other people's taste*,
not about how I perceive the quality of your work. So, someone else
would pay for your poetry. I wouldn't. Lucky for you, eh?
> I even have recieved awards.
You don't write as if your work has deserved recognition. Will the
light ever go on? It doesn't matter what reception the world at large
has given you--what you've posted here has been the work of a rank
amateur.
> I got plenty of criticism, but since these people could not hide on
> the Internet, they had to be civilized about it.
> As far as Spelling errors. look over all my work, it was only one post. So
> what? Is this an English Grammer Newsgroup, or POETRY?
You reveal your ignorance of poetry with every post. Spelling
counts. Grammar counts. Revision matters. Everything in poetry is INTENTIONAL.
~ C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 and Gnu Privacy Guard
<http://www.gnupg.org/>
iD8DBQE8knE9s7Brp8Mn7wcRAjREAJ9rhmqvbPHmlPLsUKWy9g/xSxWGMACfTKSJ
9AV61Ff0TwGZknnXCA25FP8=
=L7eH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
sophie
<snink>
>>So what if I do not have a revisionist style.
um.
I'm not sure you mean "revisionist", do you?
--
sophie
sophie
>Why? Because I do it different then the way you feel I should? With that
>Idea Neo-impressionist, or just plain Impressionist, would have never made
>it.
I'm finding you genuinely hard to understand here; but I think that what
you are suggesting is that the Impressionists didn't study
art/painting/draftmanship &c &c and practice hard for many years and
learn from their mistakes? and that every picture they painted was
spontaneous, unplanned and not subject to their own objective opinion
and reworking?
If that's what you are suggesting, you are beyond wrong. It may make you
feel vindicated to believe this, but it just isn't true.
the cubists were all skilled conventional artists as well, btw.
--
sophie
Doctor Grimm
Who are you to define poetry?
I am getting quite a few good responses here.
I don't want to argue anymore. You think you know what you are talking
about, and I know you don't. Just ignore my post, or put me on your kill
file. I really don't care what you think.
Doctor Grimm
"Chris Keelan" <rufm...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:20020315171107.6...@rogers.com...
Doctor Grimm
Keats fan. I wore out all my Penguin Press Collections. I studied Grammar
in college. I am not the best at spelling, but I am getting better. I read
all I can. Isn't that my study of form?
What I am saying is that they did much study and put allot of thought to it,
but when it came down to the creation... yes they were very spontaneous. I
have read Bios on Manet, Monet, Martin, and Surat. that is EXACTLY how they
did their craft. They did not let the paint dry and touch it up. HOW COULD
THEY? My god! You are a sufferer of the quote. "There is something
magical about words. People think if you bothered to write it down then it
must be true." I used to revise all the time. Now I don't. what is wrong
with that? Actually. I feel you want to argue, because you feel you are
right, and can't live with people who do it differently. Were you potty
trained at gun point or something? Relax. I have taken the time to
research. Read my Pee Cee. I wrote that one for folks like you.
Doctor Grimm
"sophie" <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OrFgwfLz...@blueyonder.co.uk...
Chris Keelan
Hash: SHA1
Dateline: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 23:49:07 GMT: laying low until the bleeding stops,
"Doctor Grimm" <zil...@hotmail.com> transmits:
> Then my last question to you Chris, is...
> Who are you to define poetry?
Where did I define poetry?
> I am getting quite a few good responses here.
Congratulations. What are you going to do with them?
>I don't want to argue anymore. You think you know what you are talking
about, and I know you don't.
You're wrong. I do know more about poetry than you do. Check out your
"Wake" thread and I'll show you what I mean.
>Just ignore my post, or put me on your kill
>file. I really don't care what you think.
Actually, you can put me in your killfile. I will continue to object
to what I consider to be wrong-headed assumptions about poetry.
~ C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 and Gnu Privacy Guard
<http://www.gnupg.org/>
iD8DBQE8ko8ss7Brp8Mn7wcRAkn6AJ4+5uE7YktD9bZel/RfXESw4Mmg5ACfcrNY
UhFKH8AUQsTQZ73ic/W/NQk=
=QqJ2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
JAS Carter
spake unto the internet:
>I am starting to tire. I read ALLOT of poetry.
A lot.
>I am a big Blake Byron,
Who the heck is Blake Byron?
>and Keats fan. I wore out all my Penguin Press Collections. I studied Grammar
>in college. I am not the best at spelling, but I am getting better. I read
>all I can. Isn't that my study of form?
Do you study the poetry you read? Do you ever say, "Hmm, how did ole
Blake Byron do that?"
>What I am saying is that they did much study and put allot of thought to it,
>but when it came down to the creation... yes they were very spontaneous.
Blake Byron and Keats?
>I used to revise all the time. Now I don't. what is wrong
>with that?
What's wrong with that is that it means when you post a poem here you
are claiming that it is the best that poem can ever be. You are,
therefore, posting finished work to a workshop, then demanding people
comment in a constructive way upon work that cannot be constructed.
Your poems suck. (If Nic were here, he'd yell at me for calling them
poems, but it's just easier.)
They suck. Okay? You can post a hundred of them, and they will still
all suck. Posting ONE gives you enough information to go on, but you
keep posting, and they keep sucking.
Whoosh! That's the sound of the group's interest being sucked into
the giant Hoover of Apathy.
--
Julie Carter
gnarl
wrote:
I do not know of any non-troll in this newsgroup who
>does not want chuckles to be hit by a bus. He is gangrenous.
I'd rather he was hit by a brick.
g.(would you hit a woman with a child?)
Doctor Grimm
away. You are a bitter person. Go away!
In case I am not clear. Go away. It is not what you say it is how you say
it.
Doctor Grimm
"JAS Carter" <jsgo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c96901a...@news.supernews.com...
Chris Keelan
Hash: SHA1
Dateline: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:41:50 +0000: laying low until the
bleeding stops, sophie <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> transmits:
> oh christ.
> dennis didn't write that; it was posted by aapc's
> resident moron under another poster's name in order to smear said
> poster.
If this isn't a reason to digitally sign my posts, I don't know what
is.
~ C
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.6 and Gnu Privacy Guard
<http://www.gnupg.org/>
iD8DBQE8krads7Brp8Mn7wcRAhYZAJ9OkoKWNjTzvEsjxDopXzYexdgO/wCeMALX
UL2NPQwOGM26llRq99XjhGA=
=Frew
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Michael Billard
> Why? Because I do it different then the way you feel I should?
Well, let's see: Your current process has continuously and
consistently produced bad verse. Just because you're "keeping it raw,"
or whatever inane aphorism you're operating under, doesn't change the
fact your poems are consistently bad. So, one might wonder why you
should choose to continue using a system of versification that doesn't
work. I'm wondering. Exactly what benefit do your poems gain from your
refusal to revise? None, I'm sure. The sad, and frustrating, thing is
that I once held the same remarkably stupid ideal. I can remember
looking at a finished poem (took five or less minutes as I recall) and
thinking that the poem would be greatly improved had I only chosen
this particular word over the one I had used. (Sorry, can't remember
the exact words anymore.) What's so funny (at least from a historical
perspective) is that I basically said, "Oh well, too bad. You don't
change poems once you've written them." I had the opportunity to make
a poem better but I chose not to because of some absolutely stupid
notion about poems flowing in one continuous stream from one's head
onto the page. I really thought that a poem was somehow more
important, or more valid, if it was a one shot deal. I was wrong. And
so are you.
> With that
> Idea Neo-impressionist, or just plain Impressionist, would have never made
> it.
Bullshit. As one who has deeply studied the Impressionists, I know
your comparison is completely wrong here. The reason the likes of
Monet chose to paint in a different mode was because the old modes,
with which they were completely familiar, did not accommodate their
vision. To compare what you're doing, which ultimately is to churn out
an inferior product in one quick act, to the work of the
Impressionists is the height of, to coin your phrase, pretension.
First, the notion that the Impressionists did not learn the history
and current systems of their art, or that they did not learn to master
the fundamentals of their art, is ridiculous. Yet, that is the
approach you take. To think that they did not revise their paintings,
or that they simply churned out any old thing in one quick act
regardless of how well it was done, is also ridiculous. Yet, that is
the approach you take. I find it absurd in the extreme any time some
lazy wannabe (yeah, that would be you) tries to justify his own lack
of effort through the work of geniuses. I can't count the number of
times some ignorant nitwit has screamed "Look at Picasso!" as some
sort of evidence that their work isn't simply the same old tired
adolescent tripe it appears to be, but is really the work of an artist
as misunderstood (by them, mind you, not the world at large) as
Picasso. I'm surprised you didn't go for broke and make some lame
allusion to the Abstract Expressionists.
> Thank you for calling me foolish.
Well, if you felt Sophie deserved thanks, you're going to heap praise
on me because I'm calling you far more than foolish.
> It helps. It does.
I suspect nothing anyone can say or do will help. You're stuck in this
immature mindset that there is something important to poems that
exists outside the poems themselves. You labor under the
misapprehension that the motivation or the process or the relation of
the poem to some real event or emotion is relevant to the success of
the poem. You seem to have never even once considered the fact that
poems are a form of communication, and that what is really important
is what they communicate to the *reader.* (the what?) Or that the
reader couldn't give a flying fuck whether or not any particular poem
remains true to the poet's "raw emotion." All the reader cares about
is whether or not the poem works. You'll need at some point in your
growth to realize that you aren't what's important in the deal, your
poems are. But that's a realization you'll have to make on your own;
no one can force you into it. Some people are too enamored with their
own vision of themselves as an artist to ever grow out of the petty
egotism that prevents them from placing the poem before themselves. If
you stick around long enough, we'll get to see if you're one of those
people.
> Very
> constructive. I am considering the source here.
Whatever. All you've been doing since you arrived is make excuses.
Consider the source, demand credentials and publication credits, argue
semantics and motivations and biases and what have you. But don't
lose sight of the fact that none of your histrionics has made any one
of your poems an iota better.
Doctor Grimm
something you Mindcrime Tought-Nazi. I already agreed that I was wrong in
this. If you weren't too busy talking down you would have read my string
with Chris. His approach was civilized, and I explained more. I already
addressed the Monet Issue. Get over yourself. You aren't that great.
Doctor Grimm
"Michael Billard" <mbil...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:c25d315b.02031...@posting.google.com...
Doctor Grimm
go...Bullshit back to you. If you read the strings you would feel like an
ass. I got nothing but hostility. I was jumped in like a tourist in
Compton, and all you did was drive the same points and make the same
arguments as others. I give. I am not here to fight over Ideals. I am
here for poetry. My only complaint are the people who argue loudly, and in
a demeaning way. I spit at my form for I realized after Chris critiqued me
in good detail, that I was being what I hate. An Avant Garde fool. BUT
ENOUGH! You are not a hawk, but a vulture for my carcass is strewn apart
and you come to redo all the damage. damn it! don't you see that this
closes minds the way you get your VERY VALID points across? I would like to
go on, with my NEW corrected view, but I still am getting hammered, and the
pride in me is screaming for me to defend myself. What are you trying to do
here?
You say you have the same views, but if you got this poison post aimed at
you, instead of me, would you be 'open'?
I hope not.
Doctor Grimm
"Michael Billard" <mbil...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:c25d315b.02031...@posting.google.com...
Doctor Grimm
> Next time I will compare my style to Jazz. As far as your studies
> go...Bullshit back to you. If you read the strings you would feel like an
> ass. I got nothing but hostility. I was jumped in like a tourist in
> Compton, and all you did was drive the same points and make the same
> arguments as others. I give. I am not here to fight over Ideals. I am
> here for poetry. My only complaint are the people who argue loudly, and
in
> a demeaning way. I spit at my form for I realized after Chris critiqued
me
> in good detail, that I was being what I hate. An Avant Garde fool. BUT
> ENOUGH! You are not a hawk, but a vulture for my carcass is strewn apart
> and you come to redo all the damage. damn it! don't you see that this
> closes minds the way you get your VERY VALID points across? I would like
to
> go on, with my NEW corrected view, but I still am getting hammered, and
the
> pride in me is screaming for me to defend myself. What are you trying to
do
> here?
>
> You say you have the same views, but if you got this poison post aimed at
> you, instead of me, would you be 'open'?
I meant "had"
Doctor Grimm
> If you weren't being a pompous ass I might listen to you. Go write
> something you Mindcrime Tought-Nazi. I already agreed that I was wrong
I meant Thought-Nazi.
Colin Ward
wrote:
>If you weren't being a pompous ass I might listen to you.
Hmm. No, Doc. Mike Billard is not a pompous ass.
Like Chris Keelan and Peter J. Ross he is, in fact,
one of the more respected authorities here. With
luck, time and an open mind you will learn a lot from
him, as all of us have.
*I* am the resident pompous ass and I will thank
you not to forget this in the future. :)
>Go write something you Mindcrime Tought-Nazi. I already
>agreed that I was wrong in this. If you weren't too
>busy talking down you would have read my string with Chris.
Please bear in mind that one of the vagarities
of the Usenet is that these later messages might
not appear on some people's listing for days. Then
the person has to refresh hir listings. Hence,
it is often difficult to keep up with any drastic
changes in position. Clearly, Mike was responding
to your previous, more (ahem) resolute posture
rather than your more enlightened current one.
>His approach was civilized, and I explained more. I already
>addressed the Monet Issue. Get over yourself.
> You aren't that great.
Actually, yes, he is, as you will discover
in time (and as you did with Chris).
Patience, my friend.
Colin
It’s only where the wind comes from
It’s the wheel within the clay
- John Stewart
Doctor Grimm
Burnt
Doctor Grimm
"Colin Ward" <c...@escape.ca> wrote in message
news:03o59uslnkbifcduu...@4ax.com...
sophie
>Dateline: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:41:50 +0000: laying low until the
>bleeding stops, sophie <sophiej...@blueyonder.co.uk> transmits:
>
>> oh christ.
>
>> dennis didn't write that; it was posted by aapc's
>> resident moron under another poster's name in order to smear said
>> poster.
>
>If this isn't a reason to digitally sign my posts, I don't know what
>is.
I know, I know!
--
sophie
gnarl
wrote:
>Whatever. I am done argueing. You made yourself feel clever. Good. Go
>away. You are a bitter person. Go away!
>
>In case I am not clear. Go away. It is not what you say it is how you say
>it.
It's what you say AND how you say it.
Cut the whiney platitudes and let's see
what you can do with those revisions.
g.
>
Doctor Grimm
not like what you read. I will stay aggressively insulting to assholes like
you, if you keep the disrespect at this level. You just want to talk down
to someone. I am adding you to my kill file.
Without any respect for you crude manners,
Doctor Grimm
"gnarl" <gnarl...@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:3c936984...@news.olypen.com...