Watch the fate of your American soldiers
Yahweh
Americans do not have the stomach for killing. See what well happen
to your soldier boys soon in a distant land.
Tell Bush to keep them home with mother.
This mpeg is not fake so watch at you're risk.
Yahweh
To watch the mpeg get Mastersplitter from download.com, place files
in new folder and join them useing mastersplitter.
Chuck Lysaght
http://www.1avenue.com/lysaghtc/DiaryofaMadman.html
"Yahweh" <America@war> wrote in message news:<9p0eav$lfe$0...@dosa.alt.net>...
Chuck Lysaght
"Yahweh" <America@war> wrote in message news:<9p0emu$mji$0...@dosa.alt.net>...
> begin 666 exknife.mpeg.000
> F#$582TY)1GXQ+DU012M&LCN>1K([((BR.P"0(@`@+/VYL@<`````
> `
> end
Michael C
--
You Charles are a "Cyber Terrorist" Like all terrorists you hide behind
false identities and fake addresses you spew a doctrine of hate and violence
based on a convoluted logic that all of histories most vile and contemptible
persons and groups have used to justify their respective doctrines. You
have made death threats, promised violence on individuals, harassed by
letter and phone those who disagree with you, You Charles are a terrorist.
You embody the worst of human nature, you are manifestly two things;
ignorant and without principle.
mdc
"Chuck Lysaght" <skyw...@iopener.net> wrote in message
news:baeb9763.0109...@posting.google.com...
Michael C
--
You Charles are a "Cyber Terrorist" Like all terrorists you hide behind
false identities and fake addresses you spew a doctrine of hate and violence
based on a convoluted logic that all of histories most vile and contemptible
persons and groups have used to justify their respective doctrines. You
have made death threats, promised violence on individuals, harassed by
letter and phone those who disagree with you, You Charles are a terrorist.
You embody the worst of human nature, you are manifestly two things;
ignorant and without principle.
mdc
"Chuck Lysaght" <skyw...@iopener.net> wrote in message
news:baeb9763.01092...@posting.google.com...
Lisa Harris
all those innoscent lives being take away from them....and it wasnt' just
americans who died in those bombings...it was people all over the world
including some middle eastern people...so who is the bastards here? those
terrorists are fuckin evil and have no hearts for what they done...they
killed innoscent people....u dont know how fuckkn pissed off we all
are...the terrorists fucked with the wrong country...it realy piss the shit
out of me to see terrorist do soemthing so fuckin evil and cruel..i am a
christian and never in my life have i been this fuckin pissed...pissed cuz
many innnoscent lives have been taken away...such young children and mothers
lost their lives due to some one believes or anger gainst america...i mean i
can understand some people dislikin america..but shit...we dont deserve
anything like this... we truly dont...no one or no country deserve this
shit...that is pure evil...pure evil...
those terrorist can't fuckin possibly be human for no human not even a
serial killer or canibal could do something so evil and heartless...no human
being deserve to die like that..esp innoscent young children and babies and
mothers..that is heartless and if any of htose terrorist have young children
at home and wives...my heart goes out to them too for they have lost their
husbands and fathers...instead of living to see their kids grow up and grow
old with their wives they choose to kill themselves just cuz they hate
america...they should of never done something so evil...really evil and
selfish....i do hope they find salvation in the after life...may god be with
all of us...may god be with us all...but one thing for sure...dont fuck with
america for we will get justice and justice will be served to those who are
responsible to this hell on earth
>
Lisa Harris
Many innocent people has lost their lives
All because a few Arabs had an issue against America
And in order to express their true hatred and anger for America
They not only committed suicide
But murdered many innocent people along with themselves
And because of their selfish acts
We have to suffer the lost of many innocent lives
Who we love dearly and care for deeply
The survivors are not only grieving for the lost of their love ones
But they are also very angry with the terrorists who murdered their precious
love ones
Not only the survivors
But a lot of others are deeply angered at those terrorists who murdered many
innocent lives
I for one
Is personally deeply hurt and angry
Not to mention very scared as to what may happen in the future
No one deserves this
No body
No matter who they are
No country deserves to be hurt as badly this
What these terrorists started
Is something very deep and major
I fear what may happen
I fear the future events of what may come to present
Results of what happen in New York and Washington DC
What those terrorist done
Was pure evil
Total heartlessness
Very inconsiderate
Very selfish
What they have done
Just show how evil and cruel a human can be
They have no consciousness
No care for others
And this whole thing is all over religion and race
Listen
We should all live in peace with one another
Religion, skin color, sex, etc and other things that makes us different from
others
Should not even matter
For we are all the same on the inside
In our hearts and souls
This sinful act that was just committed on Tuesday
Is really evil
Is the lowest thing a human being can ever do to someone else
We all should be living in peace
In god's eyes or whatever god you believe in
In his eyes
We are all the same
And violence is not the answer to solving major issues
The way to solve such issues
Is to get together and talk things out
Work together to solve issues
But in this day and time
Some people feel that actions speak louder than words
And they do
But at what price do we have to pay to get the message?
When does this endless evil and violence end?
Before we all get killed?
Or kill each other?
Just to get out a message?
What just happen
Has really taken things too far
Too far
It is not even human
Is like animals
Not even animals are so evil
It is just not normal
It is not even right
We all should live in love and peace and happiness
Not in violence
No one should hate anyone just because they have a different religion
Or if they are the opposite sex
Or if they are a different race
Or if they are gay or bi sexual
Those things are not important
What truly matters in life is the fact that you have friends and family who
love you dearly and care for you deeply
That you are truly happy
And have a really good life
No one should hate someone else so much that they have to murder or abuse or
insult him or her to the point of severe damage
No one should have to suffer such a lost
No one should have to suffer from such hatred
Hatred and violence are the two main things that will kill the human spirit
The pureness in your heart
It is what will kill your true innocence that you were born with
Yes, we are all sinners
But we should never do sins that are so evil and so heartless
Because such sins that are so evil and heartless
Are just plain evil
We should all live in peace and happiness
But I guess in this lifetime
Peace and happiness does not exist
Cause if it did we would not be at each other necks with wars and violence
We would all live in peace and harmony
Why is it so hard to end all these unnecessary violence?
To end this endless evil?
Why can't we all just get along with each other in peace, love, happiness
and harmony?
Is it so hard to put aside petty differences just to be a friend to someone?
If you got something against someone.
Than keep your distance from them
And just be polite and nice to them
Don't harm them to the point of death or severe injury
If you don't like someone than stay away from them
No one deserves to be killed or injured to the point of paralyze
We should all live in peace and harmony
But on this earth
That just is not possible
Is it?
Is it so hard to just be nice?
To be friendly?
You don't have to love the person
Or care for them
You just have to be polite
Nice
Friendly
It truly hurts to see us at war with each other
Over such things that should not get in the way of our peace and harmony
with each other
But who am I to talk like this?
Just an average woman
Who has a good heart and wants nothing but the best for all of us
Who wants all of us to be truly happy
And live in peace and harmony with each other
Is that so wrong?
Well, I leave all this mess in god's hands
And pray for the best outcome
For all this hatred is just really hurtful
This incident just really hit me
To the core of my soul
The deepest part of my heart
And it kills me to see us like this
To see people go to the point of killing other innocent people along with
themselves
So they could get a message out
It just kills my precious heart
I do hope and pray that all does not get out of control
I do hope and pray that no other innocent people has to loose their lives
just to straighten this mess out
>
Lisa Harris
deeply
For some of us has lost our love ones on those four planes crashes,
Pentagon, and Twin Towers
At a time like this we need to put our differences aside and just be there
for each other
For this is a time to be with your true friends
Ones who truly love you and care for you deeply
This is not a time to be fighting with each other
This is a time when we should come together as one nation
Not just one nation
But all the other countries who are on our side
Who are there for us
As if they are the same country as us
We need to come together as one
One force
One family
And find out what exactly happen
And who is really to blame
Get the real facts
And don't blame the wrong person
Don't be so quick to point finger at someone who we suspect is the real
enemy
Don't point fingers at someone till you really know who is really to blame
here
For at this time it is very easy to jump to the wrong conclusions
And make many mistakes that will lead to serious damage for not only all of
us
But our country
I don't believe we should resort to violence to solve this problem
But at the same time
What they did to us
They deserve to be taught a very important lesson on messing with us
Show them what it is like to loose your very precious love ones
Ones who they love dearly and care for deeply
The need to be shown what it is like to be scared shitless
To loose your love ones
To be put thru hell literally
I don't believe in violence
But after seeing what these terrorist done
I think they need a taste of what we just recently went thru
Whoever is responsible and all his/her followers need to be taught what it
is like to be messed with in ways that no human deserve to be treated
They went too far this time
Too far
No human being deserve such treatment
No country deserve such treatment
It is not only totally disrespectful to the country
It is also pure and utter evil
The anger I now feel is just beyond words
And am sure am not the only one who is this pissed off at those terrorists
Many people are very hurt and angry
Not just Americans
But also other nationalities
They didn't just killed Americans
They killed many other nationalities
Even their own country citizens they murdered too
Yeah sure they messed with America
But they also messed with other countries
By murdering their citizens
Who are very innocent
And had nothing to do with this
This hatred the terrorist has for America
None of us innocent people
Has nothing to do with this hatred they feel for the Americans
Many of us do not deserve such treatment
That is not only really evil
But very heartless
Words cannot describe the hurt and anger I now feel
Not just me
But many others
Anyways back to my point here
We all need to stick together
And become one big loving family
This is not the time to be arguing and fighting with each other
This is a time when we need to stick together really close
To create a very strong and unbreakable connection
That is the key to survival here
Being together
One force
One love
One unity
Am not just talking America here
Am talking bout all the countries that are with America
Who are there for American during this time
Lisa Harris
September 11th, 2001
Light many candles to show we remember them
Pay respects to their surviving families
Who grieves for them
May the lost love ones memories live on in their surviving family and
friends lives forever
Although they are gone
They have left something very precious behind
Their fond memories of all the good times and special times
Memories that nothing or no one can ever replace in their family and friends
precious hearts
May everyone remember these innocent people forever
May these innocent people rest in peace
May god watch over the family and friends that are left behind on this earth
May god richly bless them and give them the strength to go on in life
My heart goes out to all the families and friends who has lost their love
ones in that tragedy
My heart aches deeply for the all those innocent lives that has been taken
away from those people
My heart cries out in pain for what has happen on September 11th, 2001
May things change for the better really soon
Before things get way out of hand
And more innocent lives are taken away
What just happen on Tuesday
Has gots to be the most lowest thing a human being can ever do
The most evil
Worst than any kind of criminal act on this earth
And if this does not make an impact on our lives
To make things better
To try and work things out
Put our petty differences aside
So we could all live in peace and harmony
If this does not bring us together as one loving family
Than we are all doom
For such an act was cause by pure hatred
And only pure love can heal this severe wound
That has been afflicted on us as a nation
If we can not come together as one loving family
Than I hate to say this
But we are all doom
For pure hatred will bring us all down
And ruin us
We should all get along with each other
And not let each other skin color
Religion
Sexual orientation
Sex
Interfere with a loving friendship
The key to survival is living together in peace and harmony
We should all love each other no matter what the differences are
Live together as one big loving family
This is a time to be with each other in peace and harmony
j r sherman
always appreciated.
In article <5Pmt7.15594$W8.12...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>, "Lisa
says...
gnarl
Please?
g.
--
Ink- n. A villainous compound of tanno-gallate of iron, gum-
Arabic and water, chiefly used to facilitate the infection of
idiocy and promote intellectual crime...
---Ambrose Bierce The Devil's Dictionary
AAPC FAQ and Resources
http://www.aapcsite.plus.com/
"Lisa Harris" <Lisa.H...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:5Pmt7.15594$W8.12...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 9/18/01
Lisa Harris
"gnarl" <gn...@olypen.xcom> wrote in message
news:1Wpt7.61846$hh.55...@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
Lisa Harris
do bout my writing...so why dont u go pick on some other person your own
size buster? k? see ya
also am sure there are a few readers in here who like my writing...so dont
talk for others k?
Parry
>
> waht the fuck is this suppose to mean? shit...justice needs to be served for
> all those innoscent lives being take away from them....and it wasnt' just
> americans who died in those bombings...it was people all over the world
> including some middle eastern people...so who is the bastards here? those
> terrorists are fuckin evil and have no hearts for what they done...they
> killed innoscent people....u dont know how fuckkn pissed off we all
> are...the terrorists fucked with the wrong country...it realy piss the shit
> out of me to see terrorist do soemthing so fuckin evil and cruel..i am a
> christian and never in my life have i been this fuckin pissed...pissed cuz
> many innnoscent lives have been taken away...such young children and mothers
> lost their lives due to some one believes or anger gainst america...i mean i
> can understand some people dislikin america..but shit...we dont deserve
> anything like this... we truly dont...no one or no country deserve this
> shit...that is pure evil...pure evil...
If you must crosspost to alt.surrealism, could you kindly not exhibit
your stupid religion and not wave your flag as if you were peddling your
ass on the docks? As for the rest of your repulsive, shrill,
overwrought, ill-informed, trite, vacuous, addled, semi-literate,
specious, hateful, vengeful, arrogant, war-mongering virtual-landfill, I
have no comment.
-- Parry
> those terrorist can't fuckin possibly be human for no human not even a
> serial killer or canibal could do something so evil and heartless...no human
> being deserve to die like that..esp innoscent young children and babies and
> mothers..that is heartless and if any of htose terrorist have young children
> at home and wives...my heart goes out to them too for they have lost their
> husbands and fathers...instead of living to see their kids grow up and grow
> old with their wives they choose to kill themselves just cuz they hate
> america...they should of never done something so evil...really evil and
> selfish....i do hope they find salvation in the after life...may god be with
> all of us...may god be with us all...but one thing for sure...dont fuck with
> america for we will get justice and justice will be served to those who are
> responsible to this hell on earth
> >
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Brandon Freels
"Lisa Harris" <Lisa.H...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:gQmt7.15595$W8.12...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
renay
"Parry" <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:3BB652...@perfectOMITmail.com...
*****well said. also, if you're going to post to rec.arts.poems
could you do it in ENGLISH next time. punctuation, of course,
is optional.
Renay
Brandon Freels
> waht the fuck is this suppose to mean? shit...justice needs to be served
for
> all those innoscent lives being take away from them....
Yes, justice needs to be served for all those innocent lives lost at the
hands of the US Military (see Larry Maosqueda's "Shock and Horrified"
article at the bottom of this post). How should we punish the US Military
for their crimes against humanity? Any suggestions?
> terrorists are fuckin evil and have no hearts for what they done...they
> killed innoscent people....u dont know how fuckkn pissed off we all
[mid-sentence snip]
Evil? Who says we're innocent? I'm not as pissed off as I am dissapointed
with the naive patriotism, and the war-monging idoicy that has developed
since 9-11. Its bad enough that Bin Laden is bonkers, but now it seems like
the majority of the US population is bonkers as well.
> are...the terrorists fucked with the wrong country...it realy piss the
shit
> out of me to see terrorist do soemthing so fuckin evil and cruel..i am a
> christian and never in my life have i been this fuckin pissed...pissed cuz
[mid-sentence snip]
Christians are fucked up. This explains a lot about you.
> can understand some people dislikin america..but shit...we dont deserve
> anything like this... we truly dont...no one or no country deserve this
Uh, read the article supplied below. Plenty of people have plenty of reasons
to hate the United States, thanks to our sensitive (ha!) military.
> selfish....i do hope they find salvation in the after life...may god be
with
> all of us...may god be with us all...
You're fucking sick. I think I'm gonna throw up. Please leave
alt.surrealism.
*******
>> >>Shocked and Horrified
>> >>
>> >>Larry Mosqueda, Ph.D.
>> >>The Evergreen State College
>> >>September 15, 2001
>> >>
>> >>Like all Americans, on Tuesday, 9-11, I was shocked and horrified to
>> >>watch the WTC Twin Towers attacked by hijacked planes and collapse,
>> >>resulting in the deaths of perhaps up to 10,000 innocent people.
>> >>
>> >>I had not been that shocked and horrified since January 16, 1991, when
>> >>then President Bush attacked Baghdad, and the rest of Iraq and began
>> >>killing 200,000 people during that "war" (slaughter). This includes
>>the
>> >>infamous "highway of death" in the last days of the slaughter when U.S.
>> >>pilots literally shot in the back retreating Iraqi civilians and
>> >>soldiers. I continue to be horrified by the sanctions on Iraq, which
>> >>have resulted in the death of over 1,000,000 Iraqis, including over
>> >>500,000 children, about whom former Secretary of State Madeline
>> >>Allbright has stated that their deaths "are worth the cost".
>> >>
>> >>Over the course of my life I have been shocked and horrified by a
>> >>variety of U.S. governmental actions, such as the U.S. sponsored coup
>> >>against democracy in Guatemala in 1954 which resulted in the deaths of
>> >>over 120,000 Guatemalan peasants by U.S. installed dictatorships over
>> >>the course of four decades.
>> >>
>> >>Last Tuesday's events reminded me of the horror I felt when the U.S.
>> >>overthrew the governments of the Dominican Republic in 1965 and helped
>> >>to murder 3,000 people. And it reminded me of the shock I felt in
>>1973,
>> >>when the U.S. sponsored a coup in Chile against the democratic
>> >>government of Salvador Allende and helped to murder another 30,000
>> >>people, including U.S. citizens.
>> >>
>> >>Last Tuesday's events reminded me of the shock and horror I felt in
>>1965
>> >>when the U.S. sponsored a coup in Indonesia that resulted in the murder
>> >>of over 800,000 people, and the subsequent slaughter in 1975 of over
>> >>250,000 innocent people in East Timor by the Indonesian regime with the
>> >>direct complicity of President Ford and Secretary of State Henry
>> >>Kissenger.
>> >>
>> >>I was reminded of the shock and horror I felt during the U.S. sponsored
>> >>terrorist contra war (the World Court declared the U.S. government a
>>war
>> >>criminal in 1984 for the mining of the harbors) against Nicaragua in
>>the
>> >>1980s which resulted in the deaths of over 30,000 innocent people (or
>>as
>> >>the U.S. government used to call them before the term "collateral
>> >>damage" was invented--"soft targets").
>> >>
>> >>I was reminded of being horrified by the U. S. war against the people
>>of
>> >>El Salvador in the 1980s, which resulted in the brutal deaths of over
>> >>80,000 people, or "soft targets".
>> >>
>> >>I was reminded of the shock and horror I felt during the U.S. sponsored
>> >>terror war against the peoples of southern Africa (especially Angola)
>> >>that began in the 1970's and continues to this day and has resulted in
>> >>the deaths and mutilations of over 1,000,000. I was reminded of the
>> >>shock and horror I felt as the U.S. invaded Panama over the Christmas
>> >>season of 1989 and killed over 8,000 in an attempt to capture George H.
>> >>Bush's CIA partner, now turned enemy, Manual Noriega.
>> >>
>> >>I was reminded of the horror I felt when I learned about how the Shah
>>of
>> >>Iran was installed in a U.S. sponsored brutal coup that resulted in the
>> >>deaths of over 70,000 Iranians from 1952-1979. And the continuing
>>shock
>> >>as I learned that the Ayatollah Khomani, who overthrew the Shah in
>>1979,
>> >>and who was the U.S. public enemy for decade of the 1980s, was also on
>> >>the CIA payroll, while he was in exile in Paris in the 1970s.
>> >>
>> >>I was reminded of the shock and horror that I felt as I learned about
>> >>how the U.S. has "manufactured consent" since 1948 for its support
>> >>of Israel, to the exclusion of virtually any rights for the
>>Palestinians
>> >>in their native lands resulting in ever worsening day-to-day conditions
>> >>for the people of Palestine. I was shocked as I learned about the
>> >>hundreds of towns and villages that were literally wiped off the face
>>of
>> >>the earth in the early days of Israeli colonization. I was horrified
>>in
>> >>1982 as the villagers of Sabra and Shatila were massacred by Israeli
>> >>allies with direct Israeli complicity and direction. The untold
>> >>thousands who died on that day match the scene of horror that we saw
>> >>last Tuesday. But those scenes were not repeated over and over again
>>on
>> >>the national media to inflame the American public.
>> >>
>> >>The events and images of last Tuesday have been appropriately compared
>> >>to the horrific events and images of Lebanon in the 1980s with resulted
>> >>in the deaths of tens of thousand of people, with no reference to the
>> >>fact that the country that inflicted the terror on Lebanon was Israel,
>> >>with U.S. backing. I still continue to be shocked at how mainstream
>> >>commentators refer to "Israeli settlers" in the "occupied territories"
>> >>with no sense of irony as they report on who are the aggressors in the
>> >>region.
>> >>
>> >>Of course, the largest and most shocking war crime of the second half
>>of
>> >>the 20th century was the U.S. assault on Indochina from 1954-1975,
>> >>especially Vietnam, where over 4,000,000 people were bombed, napalmed,
>> >>crushed, shot and individually "hands on" murdered in the "Phoenix
>> >>Program" (this is where Oliver North got his start). Many U.S. Vietnam
>> >>veterans were also victimized by this war and had the best of
>> >>intentions, but the policy makers themselves knew the criminality of
>> >>their actions and policies as revealed in their own words in "The
>> >>Pentagon Papers," released by Daniel Ellsberg of the RAND Corporation.
>> >>In 1974 Ellsberg noted that our Presidents from Truman to Nixon
>> >>continually lied to the U.S. public about the purpose and conduct of
>>the
>> >>war. He has stated that, "It is a tribute to the American people that
>> >>our leaders perceived that they had to lie to us, it is not a tribute
>>to
>> >>us that we were so easily misled."
>> >>
>> >>I was continually shocked and horrified as the U.S. attacked and bombed
>> >>with impunity the nation of Libya in the 1980s, including killing the
>> >>infant daughter of Khadafi. I was shocked as the U.S. bombed and
>>invaded
>> >>Grenada in 1983. I was horrified by U.S. military and CIA actions in
>> >>Somalia, Haiti, Afghanistan, Sudan, Brazil, Argentina, and Yugoslavia.
>> >>The deaths in these actions ran into the hundreds of thousands.
>> >>
>> >>The above list is by no means complete or comprehensive. It is merely
>>a
>> >>list that is easily accessible and not unknown, especially to the
>> >>economic and intellectual elites. It has just been conveniently
>> >>eliminated from the public discourse and public consciousness. And for
>> >>the most part, the analysis that the U.S. actions have resulted in the
>> >>deaths of primarily civilians (over 90%) is not unknown to these elites
>> >>and policy makers. A conservative number for those who have been
>>killed
>> >>by U.S. terror and military action since World War II is 8,000,000
>> >>people. Repeat--8,000,000 people. This does not include the wounded,
>> >>the imprisoned, the displaced, the refugees, etc. Martin Luther King,
>> >>Jr. stated in 1967, during the Vietnam War, "My government is the
>> >>world's leading purveyor of violence." Shocking and horrifying.
>> >>
>> >>Nothing that I have written is meant to disparage or disrespect those
>> >>who were victims and those who suffered death or the loss of a loved
>>one
>> >>during this week's events. It is not meant to "justify" any action by
>> >>those who bombed the Twin Towers or the Pentagon. It is meant to put
>>it
>> >>in a context. If we believe that the actions were those of "madmen",
>> >>they are "madmen" who are able to keep a secret for 2 years or more
>> >>among over 100 people, as they trained to execute a complex plan.
>>While
>> >>not the acts of madmen, they are apparently the acts of "fanatics" who,
>> >>depending on who they really are, can find real grievances, but whose
>> >>actions are illegitimate.
>> >>
>> >>Osama Bin Laden at this point has been accused by the media and the
>> >>government of being the mastermind of Tuesday's bombings. Given the
>> >>government's track record on lying to the America people, that should
>> >>not be accepted as fact at this time. If indeed Bin Laden is the
>> >>mastermind of this action, he is responsible for the deaths of perhaps
>> >>10,000 people-a shocking and horrible crime. Ed Herman in his book The
>> >>Real Terror Network: Terrorism in Fact and Propaganda does not justify
>> >>any terrorism but points out that states often engage in "wholesale"
>> >>terror, while those whom governments define as "terrorist" engage is
>> >>"retail" terrorism. While qualitatively the results are the same for
>> >>the individual victims of terrorism, there is a clear quantitative
>> >>difference. And as Herman and others point out, the seeds, the roots,
>> >>of much of the "retail" terror are in fact found in the "wholesale"
>> >>terror of states. Again this is not to justify, in any way, the
>>actions
>> >>of last Tuesday, but to put them in a context and suggest an
>> >>explanation.
>> >>
>> >>Perhaps most shocking and horrific, if indeed Bin Laden is the
>> >>mastermind of Tuesday's actions; he has clearly had significant
>>training
>> >>in logistics, armaments, and military training, etc. by competent and
>> >>expert military personnel. And indeed he has. During the 1980s, he
>>was
>> >>recruited, trained and funded by the CIA in Afghanistan to fight
>>against
>> >>the Russians. As long as he visited his terror on Russians and his
>> >>enemies in Afghanistan, he was "our man" in that country.
>> >>
>> >>The same is true of Saddam Hussein of Iraq, who was a CIA asset in Iraq
>> >>during the 1980s. Hussein could gas his own people, repress the
>> >>population, and invade his neighbor (Iran) as long as he did it with
>> >>U.S. approval.
>> >>
>> >>The same was true of Manuel Noriega of Panama, who was a contemporary
>> >>and CIA partner of George H. Bush in the 1980s. Noriega's main crime
>> >>for Bush, the father, was not that he dealt drugs (he did, but the U.S.
>> >>and Bush knew this before 1989), but that Noriega was no longer going
>>to
>> >>cooperate in the ongoing U.S. terrorist contra war against Nicaragua.
>> >>This information is not unknown or really controversial among elite
>> >>policy makers. To repeat, this not to justify any of the actions of
>> >>last Tuesday, but to put it in its horrifying context.
>> >>
>> >>As shocking as the events of last Tuesday were, they are likely to
>> >>generate even more horrific actions by the U.S. government that will
>>add
>> >>significantly to the 8,000,000 figure stated above. This response may
>> >>well be qualitatively and quantitatively worst than the events of
>> >>Tuesday. The New York Times headline of 9/14/01 states that, "Bush And
>> >>Top Aides Proclaim Policy Of Ending States That Back Terror" as if that
>> >>was a rationale, measured, or even sane option. States that have been
>> >>identified for possible elimination are "a number of Asian and African
>> >>countries, like Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, and even Pakistan." This is
>> >>beyond shocking and horrific-it is just as potentially suicidal,
>> >>homicidal, and more insane than the hijackers themselves.
>> >>
>> >>Also, qualitatively, these actions will be even worse than the original
>> >>bombers if one accepts the mainstream premise that those involved are
>> >>"madmen", "religious fanatics", or a "terrorist group." If so, they
>>are
>> >>acting as either individuals or as a small group. The U.S. actions may
>> >>continue the homicidal policies of a few thousand elites for the past
>>50
>> >>years, involving both political parties.
>> >>
>> >>The retail terror is that of desperate and sometime fanatical small
>> >>groups and individuals who often have legitimate grievances, but engage
>> >>in individual criminal and illegitimate activities; the wholesale
>>terror
>> >>is that of "rational" educated men where the pain, suffering, and
>>deaths
>> >>of millions of people are contemplated, planned, and too often,
>> >>executed, for the purpose of furthering a nebulous concept called the
>> >>"national interest". Space does not allow a full explanation of the
>> >>elites Orwellian concept of the "national interest", but it can be
>> >>summarized as the protection and expansion of hegemony and an imperial
>> >>empire.
>> >>
>> >>The American public is being prepared for war while being fed a
>> >>continuous stream of shocking and horrific repeated images of Tuesday's
>> >>events and heartfelt stories from the survivors and the loved ones of
>> >>those who lost family members. These stories are real and should not
>>be
>> >>diminished. In fact, those who lost family members can be considered a
>> >>representative sample of humanity of the 8,000,000 who have been lost
>> >>previously. If we multiply by 800-1000 times the amount of pain,
>>angst,
>> >>and anger being currently felt by the American public, we might begin
>>to
>> >>understand how much of the rest of the world feels as they are
>> >>continually victimized.
>> >>
>> >>Some particularly poignant images are the heart wrenching public
>>stories
>> >>that we are seeing and hearing of family members with pictures and
>> >>flyers searching for their loved ones. These images are virtually the
>> >>same as those of the "Mothers of the Disappeared" who searched for
>>their
>> >>(primarily) adult children in places such as Argentina, where over
>> >>11,000 were "disappeared" in 1976-1982, again with U.S. approval. Just
>> >>as the mothers of Argentina deserved our respect and compassion, so do
>> >>the relatives of those who are searching for their relatives now.
>> >>However we should not allow ourselves to be manipulated by the media
>>and
>> >>U.S. government into turning real grief and anger into a national
>>policy
>> >>of wholesale terror and genocide against innocent civilians in Asia and
>> >>Africa. What we are seeing in military terms is called "softening the
>> >>target." The target here is the American public and we are being
>> >>ideologically and emotionally prepared for the slaughter that may
>> >>commence soon.
>> >>
>> >>None of the previously identified Asian and African countries are
>> >>democracies, which means that the people of these countries have
>> >>virtually no impact on developing the policies of their governments,
>> >>even if we assume that these governments are complicit in Tuesday's
>> >>actions. When one examines the recent history of these countries, one
>> >>will find that the American government had direct and indirect
>> >>influences on creating the conditions for the existence of some of
>>these
>> >>governments. This is especially true of the Taliban government of
>> >>Afghanistan itself.
>> >>
>> >>The New York Metropolitan Area has about 21,000,000 people or about 8 %
>> >>of the U.S. population. Almost everyone in America knows someone who
>> >>has been killed, injured or traumatized by the events of Tuesday. I
>> >>know that I do. Many people are calling for "revenge" or "vengeance"
>> >>and comments such as "kill them all" have been circulated on the TV,
>> >>radio, and email. A few more potentially benign comments have called
>> >>for "justice." This is only potentially benign since that term may be
>> >>defined by people such as Bush and Colin Powell. Powell is an
>> >>unrepentant participant in the Vietnam War, the terrorist contra war
>> >>against Nicaragua, and the Gulf war, at each level becoming more
>> >>responsible for the planning and execution of the policies.
>> >>
>> >>Those affected, all of us, must do everything in our power to prevent a
>> >>wider war and even greater atrocity, do everything possible to stop the
>> >>genocide if it starts, and hold those responsible for their potential
>> >>war crimes during and after the war. If there is a great war in 2001
>> >>and it is not catastrophic (a real possibility), the crimes of that war
>> >>will be revisited upon the U.S. over the next generation. That is not
>> >>some kind of religious prophecy or threat, it is merely a
>> >>straightforward political analysis. If indeed it is Bin Laden, the
>> >>world must not deal only with him as an individual criminal, but
>> >>eliminate the conditions that create the injustices and war crimes that
>> >>will inevitably lead to more of these types of attacks in the future.
>> >>The phrase "No Justice, No Peace" is more than a slogan used in a
>>march,
>> >>it is an observable historical fact. It is time to end the horror.
>> >>
>> >>In a few short pages it is impossible to delineate all of the events
>> >>described over the past week or to give a comprehensive accounting of
>> >>U.S. foreign policy. Below are a few resources for up to date news and
>> >>some background reading, by Noam Chomsky, the noted analyst. The
>>titles
>> >>of the books explain their relevance for this topic.
>> >>
>> >>For the most current information see http://www.commondreams.org/.
>> >>For information on how the media distorts the news see
>> >>http://www.fair.org/.
>> >>For excellent links on the Middle East see
>> >>http://al-awda.org/newyork/links.html.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>For background reading by Noam Chomsky see:
>> >>Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies
>> >>Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass Media (with Ed
>> >>Herman Fateful Triangle: The United States, Israel and the Palestinians
>> >>Deterring Democracy
Peter J Ross
the abyss of rec.arts.poems:
> What is this shit? and why is it flooding alt.surrealism?
Because an exceptionally moronic troll (exceptionally
moronic even according to the Two Leading Poetry Groups'
established "Moronic Troll" definitions) decided it would be
fun to crosspost some undercooked ape-tripes at random.
[Follow-ups set: we can probably spank this one adequately
ourselves, and enjoy - yes, enjoy! - doing it.]
PJR :-)
--
I posted to alt.surrealism. I must turn David Hume's picture
to face the wall ;-)
Yahweh
Antti Luode
be much easier than usual death from a cancer that grows inside
you month after month.
If you are planning on becoming the Joseph Goebbels of the Taliban
or Tshethens. I suggest that you read few of his speeches, you might
be inspired:
http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goebmain.htm
Antti
"Yahweh" <America@war> wrote in message news:9p0eav$lfe$0...@dosa.alt.net...
>
>
Chuck Lysaght
personnel, you directed your insanity at me again. Are you taking your
meds? Psst. Mikey. It's not about me. This is a thread from an asshole
who has no respect for America, and our military men and women. Get it
yet? I knew that you could.
http://www.1avenue.com/lysaghtc/DiaryofaMadman.html
"Michael C" <co...@mw.mediaone23.net> wrote in message news:<i5ct7.1502$Gd6....@typhoon.mw.mediaone.net>...
Texas Max King
"Brandon Freels" gagged on his own ineptitude :
> Yes, justice needs to be served for all those innocent lives lost at the
> hands of the US Military (see Larry Maosqueda's "Shock and Horrified"
> article at the bottom of this post). How should we punish the US Military
> for their crimes against humanity? Any suggestions?
. . . have to draw the line here again kids,
and not in a sandbox. Zita is right, the group here
generally swings to the far left. As much as I love Greg
and Jeanne, their politics are sometimes less than objective.
The Bush bashing and election weeping gets old fast.
I'm sure I'll get in trouble here for this one but I'm
prepared to face the piper.
But that's not the topic of this post. I've read the
USA bashing article and I've seen a few since.
I think most of these overpaid journalists and
writers forget a very basic concept about our
country. The people ARE the government.
What I've noticed most is that they love to
jabber in generalities. 'The government' this . . .
and 'the military' that . . . blah, blah bullshit.
They feel we can be an isolationist country
and sit back 'peace, love and understanding'
and everybody will suddenly leave us alone.
Bullshit again. We have had to fight for our
way of life since our nation was born and
I don't see this changing any time soon.
Sure I'd like to live the pacifist life, and
generally I am a pacifist . . . but it doesn't work
under all conditions. And the current situation is
most certainly one of them. The idiots that compare
military casualties over the years to one fool
attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
swoop, are just that, idiots. If you don't believe in
this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
think is better. I hope everyone heard me here.
I immigrated from a Communist dictatorhip in 1961
and if you want, I've heard they still have plenty of
room there. I'll make the reservation for you and
I'll even pay for your plane ticket. In the meantime
those that live here and that feel that this was an
act of war, are going to unite to defend our country
and our way of life. . . so that all the leftist scum
can keep their corporate stocks and pay for
their BMW and Lexus cars. We don't want to kill
innocent people, but we do want to eradicate, yes
I said 'eradicate', all of the perpetrators and their
homicidal universities of death and destruction.
If we wouldn't have dropped the H bomb or defended
ourselves in WW II, everyone reading this would be
either living in a concentration camp, saluting the
nazi scum or bowing to the emperor. We may not be
perfect in everything we do, but we are a lot better
off than 99% of the rest of the world and we will continue
to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
The 'US military' you so easily attack has stood up
to tyrants over the years so you could have your
Sunday picnics and your $50.00 veggie plate.
So either get off your couch potato ass and be
productive or get the hell out of our way. I've heard
Jane Fonda is looking for friends, maybe you can join
her by putting on your best veil and hanging out with
the Taliban to opress more women and children. Or maybe
you can get a job in Southern Lebanon training spineless
idiots to commit suicide in the name of a worthless God.
Or you could even buddy up to the boys in Iran, I hear
they're still looking for a few good followers. But leave
your self dignity at the door, they don't accept individuality
and freedom there.
-Max (christ we sure have a lot of chicken shit turncoats around here)
Surrealism, isn't that a peyote cult?
and who the hell crossposted this shit to rec.arts.poems anyway?
Brandon Freels
[heavy snips]
> i bet you think flying airliner into civilian buildings was a good idea?
You're logic is akin to the "you're either with us or against us" mind melt.
Shut the fuck up.
> feel free, this is an open forum, all are invited to post. where has the
US
> gone "bonkers"?
Bonkers = the recent rash of idiotic patriotism (for example, see Chuckles),
and poser compasion (for example, see cythera). Bin Laden, being a
terrorist, runs along the same blood line.
Brandon Freels
[more snips]
> country. The people ARE the government.
You believe this bullshit?
> most certainly one of them. The idiots that compare
> military casualties over the years to one fool
> attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
> swoop, are just that, idiots.
I'm sure Bin Laden fancies himself as a military genius. What makes him
different (that is "non-militant")?
> If you don't believe in
> this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> think is better. I hope everyone heard me here.
> I immigrated from a Communist dictatorhip in 1961
[snip]
The way they have this country fucked up, I've had a hard enough time moving
out of town, or even any where in general.
> those that live here and that feel that this was an
> act of war, are going to unite to defend our country
> and our way of life. . . so that all the leftist scum
Its definitely not my way of life you're defending, so just what are you
defending/talking about?
> If we wouldn't have dropped the H bomb or defended
> ourselves in WW II, everyone reading this would be
> either living in a concentration camp, saluting the
> nazi scum or bowing to the emperor.
Um, don't think so.
We may not be
> perfect in everything we do, but we are a lot better
> off than 99% of the rest of the world and we will continue
> to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
You know how long they've being trying to force that stinky shit down my
mouth? You opened wide for the little airplane like a good A.I.
> The 'US military' you so easily attack has stood up
> to tyrants over the years so you could have your
> Sunday picnics and your $50.00 veggie plate.
Huh? Me?
> Surrealism, isn't that a peyote cult?
No, but peyote sounds good. Any takers?
Dale Houstman
"Texas Max King" <max...@pstx.com> wrote in message
news:CbPt7.11733$Kp2.6...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
>
> "Brandon Freels" gagged on his own ineptitude :
>
> > Yes, justice needs to be served for all those innocent lives lost at the
> > hands of the US Military (see Larry Maosqueda's "Shock and Horrified"
> > article at the bottom of this post). How should we punish the US
Military
> > for their crimes against humanity? Any suggestions?
>
> . . . have to draw the line here again kids,
> and not in a sandbox. Zita is right, the group here
> generally swings to the far left.
Even if this were true (and personally I find the entire retro notions of
"left" and "right" to be irrelevant distractions most of the time) - so
what?
> As much as I love Greg
> and Jeanne, their politics are sometimes less than objective.
Objectivity (ala newscasters/bullslingers) is usually a cover term for
"let's give the positions of those in power and let it go at that."
> The Bush bashing and election weeping gets old fast.
I don't give a hootie and the blowflies for the election results fiasco:
Gore/Bush/crap. But Bush bashing only gets old to those who simply don't
like beating up morons. Personally, it strikes me as an infinite joy.
> I'm sure I'll get in trouble here for this one but I'm
> prepared to face the piper.
> But that's not the topic of this post. I've read the
> USA bashing article and I've seen a few since.
> I think most of these overpaid journalists and
> writers forget a very basic concept about our
> country. The people ARE the government.
That's an ideal, but it isn't the reality.
> What I've noticed most is that they love to
> jabber in generalities. 'The government' this . . .
> and 'the military' that . . . blah, blah bullshit.
Actually, you're the one jabbering in generalities (even to the point of
generalizing our perceived generalities. I've seen plenty of actual numbers
and facts here. You simply don't want to hear the truth, that's all. That's
all right, since you'll never be alone in the boneyard.
> They feel we can be an isolationist country
> and sit back 'peace, love and understanding'
> and everybody will suddenly leave us alone.
Huh? No one's talking isolationism here (although it was good enough for
several of our more prominent forefathers), but considered engagement based
on full-disclosure and a politics not entirely grounded in profit and
control.
> Bullshit again. We have had to fight for our
> way of life since our nation was born and
> I don't see this changing any time soon.
America fought for its "way of life" (whatever the hell that means) in
Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Iraq, etc etc? You're kidding, right?
> Sure I'd like to live the pacifist life, and
> generally I am a pacifist . . . but it doesn't work
> under all conditions.
Then you're not a pacifist, you're a opportunist.
> And the current situation is
> most certainly one of them. The idiots that compare
> military casualties over the years to one fool
> attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
> swoop, are just that, idiots.
Generalities. tsk tsk. And not a particularly smart one at that. Both
actions are militaryc actions, and US military actions also kill civilians.
What's the difference?
> If you don't believe in
> this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> think is better.
I hate the way Grandpa talks when he's in his cups.
> I hope everyone heard me here.
> I immigrated from a Communist dictatorhip in 1961
> and if you want, I've heard they still have plenty of
> room there.
Which just goes to prove even those fleeing communism can be stupid.
>I'll make the reservation for you and
> I'll even pay for your plane ticket.
Actually, I wouldn't mind visiting Russia. Send me the money.
>In the meantime
> those that live here and that feel that this was an
> act of war, are going to unite to defend our country
> and our way of life. . . so that all the leftist scum
> can keep their corporate stocks and pay for
> their BMW and Lexus cars.
Also send me any of those three. If you really believe all "progressive"
thinkers are materially rich, you aren't paying attention.
>We don't want to kill
> innocent people, but we do want to eradicate, yes
> I said 'eradicate', all of the perpetrators and their
> homicidal universities of death and destruction.
And a few innocent people along the way.
> If we wouldn't have dropped the H bomb or defended
> ourselves in WW II, everyone reading this would be
> either living in a concentration camp, saluting the
> nazi scum or bowing to the emperor. We may not be
> perfect in everything we do, but we are a lot better
> off than 99% of the rest of the world and we will continue
> to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
Not really. The US has pretty much fallen out of the "best" categories in
many areas: it doesn't have the best literacy rate, it doesn't have the best
infant mortality rate, it doesn't have the best health care system, it
doesn't have the best city planning, it doesn't provide the most liberal
freedoms, it doesn't have the most representative government. And so on. Our
superiority is pretty much a myth at this time, because we pissed it away in
pursuit of economic imperialism and creating the biggest military.
> The 'US military' you so easily attack has stood up
> to tyrants over the years so you could have your
> Sunday picnics and your $50.00 veggie plate.
In fact, that military employed a lot of those tyrants, and armed them. It
also helped them keep their people in line, and killed their enemies for
them. Among the elite list of american friends: Saddam Hussein, the Shah of
Iran, Osama Bin Laden, and so on. That's a short sample of a long bloody
history.
> So either get off your couch potato ass and be
> productive or get the hell out of our way. I've heard
> Jane Fonda is looking for friends, maybe you can join
> her by putting on your best veil and hanging out with
> the Taliban to opress more women and children.
To hell with Jane Fonda.
> Or maybe
> you can get a job in Southern Lebanon training spineless
> idiots to commit suicide in the name of a worthless God.
> Or you could even buddy up to the boys in Iran, I hear
> they're still looking for a few good followers. But leave
> your self dignity at the door, they don't accept individuality
> and freedom there.
Obviously you don't think much of it either.
dmh
McNutt
[snip]
> . . . have to draw the line here again kids,
> and not in a sandbox. Zita is right, the group here
> generally swings to the far left. As much as I love Greg
> and Jeanne, their politics are sometimes less than objective.
> The Bush bashing and election weeping gets old fast.
> I'm sure I'll get in trouble here for this one but I'm
> prepared to face the piper.
Face it, Max, the group everywhere swings far to the left. Look at the election
map of 2000; never have we been so equally divided or polarized as a country.
The American left is mere laziness, and shouldn't be considered too terribly
important (though many of them vote). There is the "Sumpin' fur nothin'" crowd
and the "There 'Aint No Sech Thing As A Free Lunch" crowd. The SFN crowd
doesn't understand where anything comes from, not where it goes. The TANSTAFFL
crowd makes it all happen, mostly, and for 50,000 years or so, hasn't received
anything from the SFN's but criticism and pain.
Ehh [shrugs shoulders], the TANSTAFFL's will keep it going; they'll parachute
into the rugged mountains of Afghanistan, they'll be glad to do it, even if
they leave it stained red with their own blood.
The lunatic fringe of the left will get some magic markers and some cardboard
and get on the nightly news. The dark visioned Ellsworth Tooheys of the left
will try their best to pray on our panic and have the governed give up even
more of their freedoms. There will come a time when they realize they are being
governed beyond their consent---that is if Democracy really DOES work. Well, in
a Republic it DOES have a _chance_ of working. We'll have to fight for our way
of life THEN too.
[snip]
> We have had to fight for our
> way of life since our nation was born and
> I don't see this changing any time soon.
Sartre had contempt for those who would not get their hands dirty, but would
arrogantly claim their "due." We've had to fight for our way of life much
longer than the short life of this nation. We have to fight for our way of life
now. It is written in the fitful breathing of the earth, the decaying sediment
on the ocean floor, the rotten piles of crumbling bones in the rain forests.
Life and strife don't rhyme fur nothin'.
[snip an impassioned plea for sanity]
Just don't expect the SFN's to get it, Max. The TANSTAFFL's know what you're
talking about, and they'll do what's necessary---again. It is it's own reward,
otherwise they'd never venture out the front door. And since they _are_ the
doers, they'll take back what's theirs some day. No one will stop them. No one
has ever been able to stop them when they understand what exactly they _need_
to fight for...
--
Art
---------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
----------------Rudyard Kipling
McNutt
[snip]
>Not really. The US has pretty much fallen out of the "best" categories in
> many areas: it doesn't have the best literacy rate, it doesn't have the best
> infant mortality rate, it doesn't have the best health care system, it
> doesn't have the best city planning, it doesn't provide the most liberal
> freedoms, it doesn't have the most representative government. And so on. Our
> superiority is pretty much a myth at this time, because we pissed it away in
> pursuit of economic imperialism and creating the biggest military.
Dale, there is an author of some isolated renown, who once proposed that a free
society could best be governed only by those who had given service. This meant,
to a large extent, service in the military.
The theory is one doesn't understand much about one's culture until one has
stood in harm's way defending it (for good or ill). Angry and hungry bullets
cracking by the ear tend to eliminate all the chads from the ballot box.
Your arguments about the decay of America would hold more weight if one could
tell that you had ever lifted a finger to change her or to preserve her.
There's a passage or two in Origin of Species that may apply to your post, but
I can't be sure since I'm new here.
BTW, speaking in generalities doesn't automatically negate one's point, luckily
for you--since you speak in them so often; You shouldn't single out other's
generalities as weaknesses in their discussion, because they are not, by
themselves, weaknesses. Although; this is only a generality...
anon...@bogus_address.con
On 2001-10-01 arty_...@yahoo.com said (responding to Dale Houstman):
>Your arguments about the decay of America would hold more weight if
>one could tell that you had ever lifted a finger to change her or
>to preserve her. There's a passage or two in Origin of Species that
>may apply to your post, but I can't be sure since I'm new here.
You might be new here, but your perception is indeed acute!
Nik Maack
McNutt wrote:
> Dale, there is an author of some isolated renown,
> who once proposed that a free
> society could best be governed only by those who
> had given service. This meant, to a large extent,
> service in the military.
I'm not sure if we're talking about the same author, but Robert Heinlein
discussed the idea in his book, "Starship Troopers". What a horrible
book that was. The politics of it were so convoluted and perverse -- he
wants to bring back public floggings -- that many people have difficulty
determining whether or not the book is satire. When they made a movie
version of the novel, they sided strongly with the satirist interpretation.
After his stroke, Heinlein's politics changed. He went from prudish
fascist to sex-crazed geezer. You can see the results in the book
"Stranger in a Strange Land". The first half is written before the
stroke, the second half is written after. What started off as a
typical, fairly well written SF romp turns into a meandering
philosophical orgy of free love. The plot, post-stroke, is more or less discarded.
While I can't say I like his after-the-stroke writing much, I do find
the change in his politics to be a vast improvement. And his stroke did
help prove one theory of mine: beneath every fascist who dreams of a
police state is a man with a raging hard-on.
Nik
barrett john erickson
"McNutt" <amcn...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3BB811DB...@home.com...
>
> Dale, there is an author of some isolated renown, who once proposed that a
free
> society could best be governed only by those who had given service. This
meant,
> to a large extent, service in the military.
need i point out that this is a _very_ large failure of this person's "power
of observation" as well as his/her imagination?
> The theory is one doesn't understand much about one's culture until one
has
> stood in harm's way defending it (for good or ill). Angry and hungry
bullets
> cracking by the ear tend to eliminate all the chads from the ballot box.
i think the actual theory behind this is that a "good citizen" hasn't been
properly broken in until s/he's spent a couple years following orders to
disregard his/her own thought processes.
as for the ludicrous proposition that one can find what "America" is all
about in the forced (at risk of physical abuse and imprisonment) submission
to rituals of dehumanization and blood sacrifice -- rituals that are
specifically intended to eliminate all creative thought except that which
serves the agenda of those above you in the hierarchy, so as to transform a
human being into an effective replacement cog for the machinery of
warfare -- well, ah...
i guess you're right.
> Your arguments about the decay of America would hold more weight if one
could
> tell that you had ever lifted a finger to change her or to preserve her.
actually i think those who have allowed themselves to be slaves to any
government/corporation have a higher burden to prove that they've overcome
their training and renounced their obedience to former masters.
[as a side anecdote: i recently met someone who had served with the Dutch
forces in the Bosnia or someplace. he said he was astounded at how little
personal autonomy USA soldiers had over their off-duty time -- how little
actual FREEDOM they had -- compared to the Dutch.]
-- barrett
BLUE FEATHERS #3 is now available
(we may even finish #4 one of these days)
http://www.MagneticFields.org/blue/
bar...@MagneticFields.org
http://www.MagneticFields.org/
surrealists in minnesota
Sur...@MagneticFields.org
==============================================
"Everything tends to make us believe that there exists a
certain point of the mind at which life and death, the real and
the imagined, past and future, the communicable and the
incommunicable, high and low, cease to be perceived as
contradictions."
...André Breton
==============================================
Art McNutt
[snip]
>
> I'm not sure if we're talking about the same author, but Robert Heinlein
> discussed the idea in his book, "Starship Troopers". What a horrible
> book that was. The politics of it were so convoluted and perverse -- he
> wants to bring back public floggings -- that many people have difficulty
> determining whether or not the book is satire. When they made a movie
> version of the novel, they sided strongly with the satirist interpretation.
"Many people have difficulty determining" is usually a dead give away, Nick,
indicating the speaker has more predetermined notions than an Arkansas Grand Dragon,
and as broad an agenda as a candidate who wants to 'count all the votes' as long as
they are votes for _him_.
I'm glad you've discovered a world view that is able to fit all incoming data into its
narrow confines. Robert Heinlein was a fascist, Ayn Rand was a Nazi. Its all very Matt
Groeningesque, and provides great humor for us all. Of course, casting aspersions on
the idea generators doesn't leave much time to critically analyze the ideas.
But it does make you seem smart.
[snip silly malediction]
--
---
Art
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
------Rudyard Kipling
Art McNutt
[snip]
>
> actually i think those who have allowed themselves to be slaves to any
> government/corporation have a higher burden to prove that they've overcome
> their training and renounced their obedience to former masters.
>
> [as a side anecdote: i recently met someone who had served with the Dutch
> forces in the Bosnia or someplace. he said he was astounded at how little
> personal autonomy USA soldiers had over their off-duty time -- how little
> actual FREEDOM they had -- compared to the Dutch.]
>
Is it just me, or does it sound to you like this was dictated from a Greek
style couch during a symposium?
--
---
Art
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
------Rudyard Kipling
Nik Maack
I said:
> >many people have difficulty
> > determining whether or not the book is satire. When they made a movie
> > version of the novel, they sided strongly with the satirist interpretation.
> "Many people have difficulty determining" is usually a dead give away, Nick,
> indicating the speaker has more predetermined notions than an Arkansas Grand Dragon,
> and as broad an agenda as a candidate who wants to 'count all the votes' as long as
> they are votes for _him_.
I was going to tell the specific story behind this off-hand comment, but
I didn't think anyone would care to hear it. Evidently I was wrong. So
here it is.
My brother is an English student at Ottawa University. He took a
science fiction course where "Starship Troopers" was on the course list.
When he mentioned this to me, he peaked my interest.
I'd seen the movie with a friend of mine, and he scowled throughout the
whole thing. He saw it as serious political commentary. I was
surprised by this, because I thought the movie was satire. The movie
was over the top, and very humorous. I rather enjoyed it.
"It's not satire," my friend said, still scowling. "I read the book,
and it was dead serious. Heinlein is a fascist asshole."
I decided to reserve judgment until I'd read the book.
I asked around in my circle of friends who like SF -- is the book
"Starship Troopers" satire or not? Some said yes, absolutely. One
friend said, "You'd have to be a complete idiot to take this seriously."
Others said no, not a chance. "Many of Heinlein's early books preach
the same dogma as 'Starship' does."
So I asked my brother, who'd read the book for this university course --
did he think it was satire? No, he said. But the issue had been raised
in class, and people were almost evenly split. Many thought it was a
joke. I believe -- if I recall correctly -- the professor lectured that
the novel was, in fact, not meant to be taken as satire. That is,
Heinlein didn't mean it to be satire.
I borrowed the book from my brother and read it. It's my opinion that
it's not satire. But the point of view put forward in the book is so
outrageous, so ridiculous, so comical, it's quite understandable that
many think Heinlein was kidding.
That you take it seriously is unfortunate.
> I'm glad you've discovered a world view that is able to fit all incoming data into its
> narrow confines. Robert Heinlein was a fascist, Ayn Rand was a Nazi. Its all very Matt
> Groeningesque, and provides great humor for us all. Of course, casting aspersions on
> the idea generators doesn't leave much time to critically analyze the ideas.
Fascinating. Do you realize that, even as you say this, you're casting
aspersions on me, neatly slipping me in a convenient box, so you don't
have to think of me as a human being with opinions? Now I am a "Matt
Groeningesque" comedian trying to poke fun and look smart.
How fortunate for you. Such a position will certainly make talking to
me easier.
Nik
j r sherman
says...
>
>"j r sherman" wrote
>[heavy snips]
>> i bet you think flying airliner into civilian buildings was a good idea?
>
>You're logic is akin to the "you're either with us or against us" mind melt.
not at all. i would like you to explain yourself. that's how things work in a
discussion.
>Shut the fuck up.
heh, come and make me.
>> feel free, this is an open forum, all are invited to post. where has the
>US
>> gone "bonkers"?
>
>Bonkers = the recent rash of idiotic patriotism (for example, see Chuckles),
>and poser compasion (for example, see cythera). Bin Laden, being a
>terrorist, runs along the same blood line.
and you name two people as your evidence that a nation of 250 million people has
gone bonkers?
do they no longer teach logic in high school?
love and kisses,
j r sherman
j r sherman
>> Surrealism, isn't that a peyote cult?
>
>No, but peyote sounds good. Any takers?
god, i love it when children are given ISP accounts!
Texas Max King
"Dale Houstman"
> Even if this were true (and personally I find the entire retro notions of
> "left" and "right" to be irrelevant distractions most of the time) - so
> what?
It's obvious Dale, 'left' and 'right' does confuse you.
> Objectivity (ala newscasters/bullslingers) is usually a cover term for
> "let's give the positions of those in power and let it go at that."
Again it is obvious you don't understand 'objectivity' either.
Al Gore has a journalism class going, you might want to sign up.
Maybe he figured it out. Maybe.
> I don't give a hootie and the blowflies for the election results fiasco:
> Gore/Bush/crap. But Bush bashing only gets old to those who simply don't
> like beating up morons. Personally, it strikes me as an infinite joy.
You're easily amused, that's also obvious.
> > country. The people ARE the government.
>
> That's an ideal, but it isn't the reality.
The difference between ideal and reality is the 'doing'.
The reason it isn't a reality is because apathetics like you
can moan and weep but rarely get up off their lazy asses
to do anything.
> Actually, you're the one jabbering in generalities (even to the point of
> generalizing our perceived generalities. I've seen plenty of actual
numbers
> and facts here. You simply don't want to hear the truth, that's all.
That's
> all right, since you'll never be alone in the boneyard.
. . . and you Dale are wasting my time, specifically.
>snip (shallow isolationist comment)<
> America fought for its "way of life" (whatever the hell that means) in
> Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Iraq, etc etc? You're kidding, right?
You're lost Dale, I can't help you. Stick to poetry
and leave History to Historians.
> Then you're not a pacifist, you're a opportunist.
I'm sorry I forgot. Opportunities should be blown off whenever possible.
> > attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
> > swoop, are just that, idiots.
>
> Generalities. tsk tsk. And not a particularly smart one at that. Both
> actions are militaryc actions, and US military actions also kill
civilians.
> What's the difference?
Did you ever receive formal education?
I'll say it again, just for those that are hearing challenged:
The US targets military targets, your buddy
cum Laden targets 'innocent' lives.
But then you didn't have any relatives in the WTC, right?
Screw the 1500 kids that don't have parents anymore.
I understand you Dale. I don't think if I classified
you as an idiot that it would be too general.
> > If you don't believe in
> > this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> > anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> > then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> > think is better.
>
> I hate the way Grandpa talks when he's in his cups.
Read it again Dale, it apllies specifically to you and your kind.
> Which just goes to prove even those fleeing communism can be stupid.
Maybe so Dale, but unlike the 'take it for granted' generation,
we know the difference between oppression and freedom
and we're more likely to stand and fight for it
instead of letting someone else do the dirty work
then kicking back and enjoying the fruits of the labor.
> Actually, I wouldn't mind visiting Russia. Send me the money.
Russia doesn't apply, I guess you haven't read a paper in awhile.
But I hear they're offering free one way air fare to
Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Cuba.
Go for it. Believe me you won't be missed over here.
> Also send me any of those three. If you really believe all "progressive"
> thinkers are materially rich, you aren't paying attention.
'progressive' thinkers, now that's a joke. You mean the
same 'progressive' thinkers I hung out with in the sixties and seventies
who now own corporations, thrive on apathy and suck ass
like everyone else.
Yeah there's a role model for you Dale.
> >We don't want to kill
> > innocent people, but we do want to eradicate, yes
> > I said 'eradicate', all of the perpetrators and their
> > homicidal universities of death and destruction.
>
> And a few innocent people along the way.
Oh, that's right you prefer 'alot' of innocent people
dying right here at home. Hold your Mein Kampf
and Communist Manifesto tight Dale,
you might need it where you're going.
> > to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
>
> Not really. The US has pretty much fallen out of the "best" categories in
> many areas: it doesn't have the best literacy rate, it doesn't have the
best
> infant mortality rate, it doesn't have the best health care system, it
> doesn't have the best city planning, it doesn't provide the most liberal
> freedoms, it doesn't have the most representative government. And so on.
Our
> superiority is pretty much a myth at this time, because we pissed it away
in
> pursuit of economic imperialism and creating the biggest military.
Another 'imperialist' thinker, figures. Just donate all
those 'imperialist' material possesions you own to
your favorite opressive regime Dale. I'm sure they'll
be grateful to you.
> In fact, that military employed a lot of those tyrants, and armed them. It
> also helped them keep their people in line, and killed their enemies for
> them. Among the elite list of american friends: Saddam Hussein, the Shah
of
> Iran, Osama Bin Laden, and so on. That's a short sample of a long bloody
> history.
You can lead a horse to water but you make him drink.
>snip<
You've shown your colors Dale, the yellow streak doesn't fade over
time.
I have work to do . . .
-Max
Dale Houstman
"Art McNutt" <arty_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3BB88DA5...@yahoo.com...
> barrett john erickson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > actually i think those who have allowed themselves to be slaves to any
> > government/corporation have a higher burden to prove that they've
overcome
> > their training and renounced their obedience to former masters.
> >
> > [as a side anecdote: i recently met someone who had served with the
Dutch
> > forces in the Bosnia or someplace. he said he was astounded at how
little
> > personal autonomy USA soldiers had over their off-duty time -- how
little
> > actual FREEDOM they had -- compared to the Dutch.]
> >
>
> Is it just me, or does it sound to you like this was dictated from a Greek
> style couch during a symposium?
>
sty during a shit storm?
You obviously find yourself unable to respond to the content of the
response. This is - indeed - a terrible thing to happen to a mind once full
of fresh ideas about tuna and suspenders.
dmh
Dale Houstman
<anonymous@bogus_address.con> wrote in message
news:trg75c1...@corp.supernews.com...
Your's certainly isn't?
First off, how can either of you discern to what degree I may have or have
not "lifted a finger" to change or "perserve" America? And are you really
convinced that the only way to achieve substantial transformation of a
culture and nation is to have been in the military?
Secondly, the obscure reference to Darwin's work is probably specious and
based on the usual misunderstanding of his ideas. Even in his own lifetime
he found himself fighting against those who would apply his description of a
slow physical process patterning out of randomness, to an excuse for all
sorts of human societal idiocies.
"Acute"? One rather finds it pointless.
dmh
Dale Houstman
>
> [snip]
>
> >Not really. The US has pretty much fallen out of the "best" categories in
>
> > many areas: it doesn't have the best literacy rate, it doesn't have the
best
> > infant mortality rate, it doesn't have the best health care system, it
> > doesn't have the best city planning, it doesn't provide the most liberal
> > freedoms, it doesn't have the most representative government. And so on.
Our
> > superiority is pretty much a myth at this time, because we pissed it
away in
> > pursuit of economic imperialism and creating the biggest military.
>
> Dale, there is an author of some isolated renown, who once proposed that a
free
> society could best be governed only by those who had given service. This
meant,
> to a large extent, service in the military.
You seem unable to respond to what was said. Have you had a terrible
accident of cognition?
As for your stinking chunk of received knowledge, all one can really say is
that what possible relevance to anything is the "fact" that some idiot
(renowned, isolated, or galvanized) proposed the moon is made of human shit?
Many "renown" people make stupid statements. And your narrowing of civic
service to military service is - witrhout a doubt - one of the most anally
constricted ideals of culture I have seen of late.
>
> The theory is one doesn't understand much about one's culture until one
has
> stood in harm's way defending it (for good or ill). Angry and hungry
bullets
> cracking by the ear tend to eliminate all the chads from the ballot box.
Actually, I've met and spoken to many people who have "stood in harm's way"
and - honestly - they are no better (and often worse) than the usual run of
people. Your statement (or your cribbed "therory") is without much evidence
in real life: I'll take such "cultural dunces" as Mark Twain and Bob Dylan
over such exemplars of national pride as Oliver North and Timothy McVeigh
any day.
>
> Your arguments about the decay of America would hold more weight if one
could
> tell that you had ever lifted a finger to change her or to preserve her.
> There's a passage or two in Origin of Species that may apply to your post,
but
> I can't be sure since I'm new here.
Riddle me this Batman: how do you know what I may or may not have done to
change or "perserve" America? And so your "argument" (such as it is) doesn't
hold any more water than the rest of your Dixie cup of rhetoric. As for your
vague Darwin reference, it is probably specious: Charles found himself in
his own lifetime fighting such transfers of his decriptive system to a mask
for human brutality.
>
> BTW, speaking in generalities doesn't automatically negate one's point,
luckily
> for you--since you speak in them so often; You shouldn't single out
other's
> generalities as weaknesses in their discussion, because they are not, by
> themselves, weaknesses. Although; this is only a generality...
Actually, I only singled out generalities because they were singled out
previously in regard to me. Personally I have no problem with them sprinkled
amidst the general rhetorical debris. But I think you wouldn't be able to
discern a generality (such as "military service best suits one for public
service") in such rubble. Generality or not, my argument with that statement
is not linguistic: it is an idiocy without evidence for its assertion, and
just another argument for servitude and conformity.
dmh
Brandon Freels
> and you name two people as your evidence that a nation of 250 million
people has
> gone bonkers?
You mean this flag waving bullshit and incoherent patriotism is only
happening in my town?
Art McNutt
[snip]
>
> I was going to tell the specific story behind this off-hand comment, but
> I didn't think anyone would care to hear it. Evidently I was wrong. So
> here it is.
[snip your story, wisely not included the first time around]
>
>
> I borrowed the book from my brother and read it. It's my opinion that
> it's not satire. But the point of view put forward in the book is so
> outrageous, so ridiculous, so comical, it's quite understandable that
> many think Heinlein was kidding.
Many---which means you , a friend, and your brother's feeling that half of a Sci-fi
literature class took it as parody or satire. This is what I mean by people beginning
statements with "generally" or "a lot of people find." Usually they are speaking of
themselves and, since they suspect apriori this will carry no weight, they speak as if from
a concensus. Had you just said "I believe" it would come across more honest, IMHO.
>
> That you take it seriously is unfortunate.
Heinlein intended it as serious science fiction. He's on record many places saying just
that.
Don't mistake my understanding that he was as serious as a heart attack when he wrote it,
for me buying into the ideas wholesale. It remains, however, an intriguing idea, that
enfranchisement could be or should be earned.
>
>
> > I'm glad you've discovered a world view that is able to fit all incoming data into its
> > narrow confines. Robert Heinlein was a fascist, Ayn Rand was a Nazi. Its all very Matt
> > Groeningesque, and provides great humor for us all. Of course, casting aspersions on
> > the idea generators doesn't leave much time to critically analyze the ideas.
>
> Fascinating. Do you realize that, even as you say this, you're casting
> aspersions on me, neatly slipping me in a convenient box, so you don't
> have to think of me as a human being with opinions? Now I am a "Matt
> Groeningesque" comedian trying to poke fun and look smart.
Yes, Nick, I DO realize I was casting aspersions on you. But YOU are the one who chose to
attack the man who spoke the idea rather than the idea itself. If the janitor had a good
idea, I'd listen to him. If Adolf Hitler had an idea I disagreed with, I'd address the
idea--though it would be sooo tempting to just say "what a stupid Nazi scum." While true,
it does nothing to dispute his idea. Which is dangerous.
Art McNutt
[snip]
>
> You obviously find yourself unable to respond to the content of the
> response. This is - indeed - a terrible thing to happen to a mind once full
> of fresh ideas about tuna and suspenders.
Well, it's just that you included a lot of utopian ideas about never having to
follow orders and never yielding your personal freedoms.
Should you ever be on an airplane or a ship, for instance, you might still
_feel_ that you have personal freedoms, but this would only be if there weren't
some dire emergency while you were aboard. In an emergency, you'd find yourself
under the capricious orders of the captain, and from the perceived tone of your
post, you wouldn't like it very well. If I read you correctly, you'd probably
resent it.
The thing is, I don't know you, so I can't make a judgment about you, nor do I
wish to---however, I have known people who apparently have some of the same
attitudes, espouse the same arrogant denial that they are part of something
greater than themselves, especially in speaking of their fellow humans or their
inherited culture.
To me, they should be feckless youths, dressed in a fine linen chiton, fed
grapes from a nearby servant, and spend all day cleverly elucidating to the
great unwashed about the true nature of the world.
Listen, if the shoe DOESN'T fit, don't wear it. Okay?
Art McNutt
[snip]
>Actually, I've met and spoken to many people who have "stood in harm's way"
> and - honestly - they are no better (and often worse) than the usual run of
> people. Your statement (or your cribbed "therory") is without much evidence
> in real life: I'll take such "cultural dunces" as Mark Twain and Bob Dylan
> over such exemplars of national pride as Oliver North and Timothy McVeigh
> any day.
No one was making judgments about whether they are better people, nor worse
people than those who had never stood on the ramparts. It has more to do what
they have shown, what they have proven about themselves. I wouldn't judge them
as being better or worse. I the salt mines, you have to show the cook your
dirty hands before you can eat.
They could eat.
---
Art
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
------Rudyard Kipling
Dale Houstman
"Brandon Freels" <b.j.f...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:9U1u7.23972$W8.15...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Not unless you live in Everytown, USA. It is happening all over, even here
in Minnesota, the "nice" state. "j r" knows this is the case, but has chosen
to alight on what he saw as an "in" inb your comments. There are at least
two "blinders on/let's get'em" people just in my office of fifteen workers,
and a rather incohernet rant coming from the letters columns of the
newspapers, and I read (in my job) twenty to thirty different newspapers a
day. It's the same all over: the Wall Street Journal is doing its usual
dance of the bottom line, and so on. It is self-evident.
dmh
j r sherman
says...
that's not what you said, oh unaware-one. you said, if i may quote you:
"Bonkers = the recent rash of idiotic patriotism (for example, see Chuckles),
and poser compasion (for example, see cythera)."
this was the evidence you presented to prove your claim that the entire nation
has gone bonkers.
ya know, i don't think someone putting a US flag in their window or on their car
makes them bonkers. you are thinking in purely braindead leftist terms. it's
time to cast off old century slogans! god know's it's easier to feel like you're
"doing" something if you keep muttering old century slogans, but the war in
Vietnam ended almost 30 years ago. you probably weren't even alive then!
cause you can't protect innocent people of all races, creeds, colors and
religions from hijacked aircraft by having everyone hold hands and sing "give
peace a chance".
even Lennon figured that one out!
so, back to high school with you, my not-so-clever friend, until you've read
some history and learned some logic!
Dale Houstman
>
> "Dale Houstman"
>
> > Even if this were true (and personally I find the entire retro notions
of
> > "left" and "right" to be irrelevant distractions most of the time) - so
> > what?
>
> It's obvious Dale, 'left' and 'right' does confuse you.
I always enjoy a childish response to a real comment. It makes me want to
give the responder a lollipop and a kick in the ass.
>
> > Objectivity (ala newscasters/bullslingers) is usually a cover term for
> > "let's give the positions of those in power and let it go at that."
>
> Again it is obvious you don't understand 'objectivity' either.
> Al Gore has a journalism class going, you might want to sign up.
> Maybe he figured it out. Maybe.
I certainly do understand objectivity, and my opinion of its role in
journalism is not an uncommon one. As for taking Gore's class, several of
his students said he was unapproachable as an instructor, and not a good
educator in the least.
>
> > I don't give a hootie and the blowflies for the election results fiasco:
> > Gore/Bush/crap. But Bush bashing only gets old to those who simply don't
> > like beating up morons. Personally, it strikes me as an infinite joy.
>
> You're easily amused, that's also obvious.
Another childish riposte! The lollipop is on its way, but the ass-kicking
will be coming via slow boat to China, so be patient.
>
> > > country. The people ARE the government.
> >
> > That's an ideal, but it isn't the reality.
>
> The difference between ideal and reality is the 'doing'.
Yes: and America isn't "doing it."
> The reason it isn't a reality is because apathetics like you
> can moan and weep but rarely get up off their lazy asses
> to do anything.
How do you know what I do or don't do? Really. Are you Miss Cleo? And it
strikes me that you are - in fact - the apathetic one, as you seem to be
content to accept the shit that was spoonfed you without making any effort
to discern its reality.
>
> > Actually, you're the one jabbering in generalities (even to the point of
> > generalizing our perceived generalities. I've seen plenty of actual
> numbers
> > and facts here. You simply don't want to hear the truth, that's all.
> That's
> > all right, since you'll never be alone in the boneyard.
>
> . . . and you Dale are wasting my time, specifically.
No, you're wasting your own time. specifically.
>
>
> > America fought for its "way of life" (whatever the hell that means) in
> > Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Iraq, etc etc? You're kidding, right?
>
> You're lost Dale, I can't help you. Stick to poetry
> and leave History to Historians.
How does this constitute a response to my question? I'll assume (in the
absence of a response) that you are at loggerheads to come up with one.
>
> >
> > Generalities. tsk tsk. And not a particularly smart one at that. Both
> > actions are militaryc actions, and US military actions also kill
> civilians.
> > What's the difference?
>
> Did you ever receive formal education?
> I'll say it again, just for those that are hearing challenged:
> The US targets military targets, your buddy
> cum Laden targets 'innocent' lives.
Over 75% of the "surgical bombings" in Iraq went astray and led to
"collateral damage": read "civilians." We also targeted - via our
embargoes - civilians the least able to help themselves. In Vietnam we
carpet bombed (without regard for the niceities of "innocent" versus
"commie") Cambodia, with whom we were not at war. Using our money, weapons
and training, Israel has pinpointed and prosecuted and tortured civilians
for years. Our role in Argentina's and Iran's (under the shah) suppression
and killing of its own people (and our complicity in supporting the
blood/money sucking Saudi elites) and a hundred other activities make your
naive statements look silly, except to others like yourself, who are too
apathetic to read beyond the local paper's trivial treatments of various
subjects.
> But then you didn't have any relatives in the WTC, right?
An irrelevant point. But an expected one: the knee jerk reactions of those
who are imagination-challenged tend to make such responses a frequent
occurence: we heard much the same sort of dumbass tripe during the Vietnam
war, and we'll hear it if we go to war with Luxembourg. Willful ignorance
and fawning obeisance to power has a very consistent
sound.
> Screw the 1500 kids that don't have parents anymore.
Where do I say such a brutally ignorant thing?
> I understand you Dale. I don't think if I classified
> you as an idiot that it would be too general.
No, but it would be classical projection.
>
> > > If you don't believe in
> > > this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> > > anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> > > then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> > > think is better.
> >
> > I hate the way Grandpa talks when he's in his cups.
>
> Read it again Dale, it apllies specifically to you and your kind.
I know you mook: and it still sounds just like a drunken and bitter
grandfather.
>
> > Which just goes to prove even those fleeing communism can be stupid.
>
> Maybe so Dale, but unlike the 'take it for granted' generation,
It seems to me that you are taking it for granted: you take it for granted
(despite all evidence to the contrary) that the US is the "greatest" country
in the world, you take it for granted that the US only targets military, you
take it for granted that the "objectivity" of journalism is providing you
with real news, you take it for granted that any resistance to POWER must be
idiotic. You may have left communism, but you brought your fawning servitude
with you.
> we know the difference between op"pression and freedom
> and we're more likely to stand and fight for it
> instead of letting someone else do the dirty work
> then kicking back and enjoying the fruits of the labor.
>
> > Actually, I wouldn't mind visiting Russia. Send me the money.
>
> Russia doesn't apply, I guess you haven't read a paper in awhile.
I read plenty of papers, and Russia still applies.
> But I hear they're offering free one way air fare to
> Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan and Cuba.
> Go for it. Believe me you won't be missed over here.
How do you know? Are you so autocratic - so used to being a tool of power -
that you really think your opinion of me represents anything like a
consensus?
>
> > Also send me any of those three. If you really believe all "progressive"
> > thinkers are materially rich, you aren't paying attention.
>
> 'progressive' thinkers, now that's a joke.
No, it's irony: thus the apostrophes. Reading, it's fundamental.
You mean the
> same 'progressive' thinkers I hung out with in the sixties and seventies
> who now own corporations, thrive on apathy and suck ass
> like everyone else.
> Yeah there's a role model for you Dale.
You hung out with a bad crowd. Not my fault.
>
>
> Oh, that's right you prefer 'alot' of innocent people
> dying right here at home. Hold your Mein Kampf
> and Communist Manifesto tight Dale,
> you might need it where you're going.
Typical confusion of communism and nazism. And where do I say that I
"prefer" anyone to die? Show me, or shut your little power-puppet mouth.
>
You strike me as very much of a donkey pizzle.
dmh
Nik Maack
Art McNutt wrote:
> Many---which means you , a friend, and your brother's feeling that half of a Sci-fi
> literature class took it as parody or satire.
Fifty people -- that's not many. Everyone knows many, by definition, is
52. You, Nik, have misused the word "many" and I will send military men
to your home to have you taken to the mis-used word camp.
> Heinlein intended it as serious science fiction. He's on record many places saying just
> that.
Ed Wood intended his films to be taken seriously. Do you take Ed Wood's
films seriously?
> Yes, Nick, I DO realize I was casting aspersions on you. But YOU are the one who chose to
> attack the man who spoke the idea rather than the idea itself. If the janitor had a good
> idea, I'd listen to him. If Adolf Hitler had an idea I disagreed with, I'd address the
> idea--though it would be sooo tempting to just say "what a stupid Nazi scum." While true,
> it does nothing to dispute his idea. Which is dangerous.
Robert Heinlein advocates giving only military people the vote. He
wants to bring back floggings. He wrote a book where evil alien insects
have to be destroyed because they are inherently bad and icky -- a
rather sad metaphor for foreign cultures.
I think it's safe to call someone who thinks this way a fascist.
When he had a stroke, he stopped writing these sorts of books, and wrote
books about boobies. His stroke, in my opinion, unclenched his brain
and his sphincter. I think his stroke might have been the best thing
that ever happened to him.
Let us never discuss this again.
Nik
Art McNutt
[snip]
>Robert Heinlein advocates giving only military people the vote. He
> wants to bring back floggings. He wrote a book where evil alien insects
> have to be destroyed because they are inherently bad and icky -- a
> rather sad metaphor for foreign cultures.
>
> I think it's safe to call someone who thinks this way a fascist.
>
> When he had a stroke, he stopped writing these sorts of books, and wrote
> books about boobies. His stroke, in my opinion, unclenched his brain
> and his sphincter. I think his stroke might have been the best thing
> that ever happened to him.
>
> Let us never discuss this again.
Well, let's discuss it, but leave Heinlein out.
You grew up in a country where you automatically get the right to vote. You don't have to be
able to read, but you must be able to sign your name and have someone present who can write
out your address.
Haven't you ever given a thought to how this system might be improved? Sure, touching
something this sacred is a bit like flirting with National Socialism, but there certainly is a
slavery involved in a rule by the majority. As it stands, especially after watching the events
of the last 40 years, _I_ see the need for improvement.
A no-bread and circuses clause in the Constitution maybe.
A voting booth locked out by a random quadratic equation on a computer screen. Solve the
equation and you get to vote. Otherwise you have to go home and brush up on your math until
the next general election.
Ridiculous, sure. But not as ridiculous as letting anyone who can't do much of anything but
maintain 98 Degrees or so vote for lawmakers and Presidents. Heck, if we keep this ridiculous
system, anyone with a good focus group could, well, you've seen it happen, no reason to go
into THAT.
--
Texas Max King
"Dale Houstman" at the forefront of cynicism wrote:
> I always enjoy a childish response to a real comment. It makes me want to
> give the responder a lollipop and a kick in the ass.
save your lollipop and I won't even do a 'suck' joke.
As for the kick in the ass, save that too, you may need it
for your friends in training.
> I certainly do understand objectivity, and my opinion of its role in
> journalism is not an uncommon one. As for taking Gore's class, several of
> his students said he was unapproachable as an instructor, and not a good
> educator in the least.
thank you!
>snip (something about China and lollipops)<
> Yes: and America isn't "doing it."
Generality, but whose fault is it Dale?
>snip again for the sake of brevity<
> Over 75% of the "surgical bombings" in Iraq went astray and led to
> "collateral damage": read "civilians." We also targeted - via our
> embargoes - civilians the least able to help themselves.
I haven't seen verification of your statistic there,
but I'll take your well informed word on that one.
We've only targeted Saddam, Dale. The fact that as a coward he hides behind
his people is unfortunate. We didn't ask him to invade Kuwait.
We didn't ask him to stockpile biological weapons.
If he would have had his way, I'm sure he'd be marching
his way across Europe and the Middle East as we speak.
I don't see anything wrong with us backing him against Iran
then cutting off his balls when he got out of control.
Just as I agreed with backing Bin Laden against the Soviet Empire
and then cutting off his balls when he turns his
suicide sheep against us. The Soviets were attempting to overtake
Afghanistan, we just want the crooks who kill long distance
then hide under rocks.
>In Vietnam we
> carpet bombed (without regard for the niceities of "innocent" versus
> "commie") Cambodia, with whom we were not at war.
Unfortunately we learned many lessons the hard way in Nam.
I will not defend the tactics of the administration of the era.
But we weren't fighting the Vietnamese or the Cambodians,
we were fighting the Red Chinese and their attempts at
global domination of the Eastern hemisphere. Vietnam
and Cambodia were the battleground, contrary to popular
belief, it was not completely in vain.
>Using our money, weapons
> and training, Israel has pinpointed and prosecuted and tortured civilians
> for years.
We defended the Israelis from being wiped out by the Arabs just
after WW II. I don't defend the Israelis extreme tactics,
but at the same time I don't condone the Arab response
or their lack of sensibility in reaching a peaceful consensus
among themselves. This is the problem in the Middle East,
the Arabs cannot agree among themselves on what is right
and what is wrong. And until they do, they will continue to kill
each other in disagreement.
>Our role in Argentina's and Iran's (under the shah) suppression
more fiascos from the past. But again neither was completely
unjustified.
Are they any better under Religious Monarchys. I don't think so.
> and killing of its own people (and our complicity in supporting the
> blood/money sucking Saudi elites)
I won't defend blood sucking Saudi elites either. They came to the US
in the late seventies and early eighties and began an uncontrolled
development craze that our urban areas have still not recovered from.
And they were backed by our own elitist groups, but this is not
representative of America. So your poin there is mute.
> I know you mook: and it still sounds just like a drunken and bitter
> grandfather.
Achoholism doesn't run in my family Dale. Love it, help change
it for the better or leave. But quit your whining and defending
the killers instead of supporting actions to eradicate their
malevolence.
> It seems to me that you are taking it for granted: you take it for granted
> (despite all evidence to the contrary) that the US is the "greatest"
country
> in the world, you take it for granted that the US only targets military,
you
> take it for granted that the "objectivity" of journalism is providing you
> with real news, you take it for granted that any resistance to POWER must
be
> idiotic. You may have left communism, but you brought your fawning
servitude
> with you.
I don't take it for granted, that's the difference between us.
Since when was journalism objective. There are a handfull of
real journalists in the world, the rest are merely reporters.
It being my field of study I have learned to read between the lines.
Justifiable resistance to misguided power is not idiotic, it is
one of my favorite causes. But I prefer to fight back
with democratic values and ideals not violence.
I won't even get into your last remark because your
ignorance surpasses you on that one. Until you've
been there you'll never understand.
> How do you know? Are you so autocratic - so used to being a tool of
power -
> that you really think your opinion of me represents anything like a
> consensus?
I'm a tool for no one Dale. And yes we do have a consensus,
but you have your rights under the Constitution. You can say
anything you want no matter how shallow.
> Typical confusion of communism and nazism. And where do I say that I
> "prefer" anyone to die? Show me, or shut your little power-puppet mouth.
Same shit with a different spin. I'm sure you have your favorite,
you seem like that type anyway.
> You strike me as very much of a donkey pizzle.
How profound an observation. You just strike me as
a misguided psuedo-intellectual.
You would rather continue to be attacked
than stand against it. Just for the record:
October 1, 2001
One more suicde bomb in Israel
One more terrorist attack in India.
When is it enough for you to do something about it Dale?
-Max
>
> dmh
>
>
Jonathan
"Nik Maack" <nikm...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3BB89DAB...@sympatico.ca...
>
> I said:
> > >many people have difficulty
> > > determining whether or not the book is satire. When they made a movie
> > > version of the novel, they sided strongly with the satirist interpretation.
>
> The aptly named Art McNutt wrote:
> > "Many people have difficulty determining" is usually a dead give away, Nick,
> > indicating the speaker has more predetermined notions than an Arkansas Grand
Dragon,
> > and as broad an agenda as a candidate who wants to 'count all the votes' as
long as
> > they are votes for _him_.
>
>
> I was going to tell the specific story behind this off-hand comment, but
> I didn't think anyone would care to hear it. Evidently I was wrong. So
> here it is.
>
> My brother is an English student at Ottawa University. He took a
> science fiction course where "Starship Troopers" was on the course list.
> When he mentioned this to me, he peaked my interest.
>
> I'd seen the movie with a friend of mine, and he scowled throughout the
> whole thing. He saw it as serious political commentary. I was
> surprised by this, because I thought the movie was satire. The movie
> was over the top, and very humorous. I rather enjoyed it.
I loved that movie because of it's satire. We ~were the
infesting 'bugs' mindlessly going to our deaths in droves.
Not the other way around as the movie tried to portray at
first glance.
The very last scene made this clear when our 'scientists'
were trying to understand the captured brain bug by ramming
things down it's throat! About as hopeless as my dog understanding
human intelligence by chewing on my ankle.
The entire plot revolved around the idea that if they could
only figure out how and what the bugs thought...., plus
the references to the fact that it's a matter of numbers, they're
just a lot more of the bugs then us. In this case who
would be the host, and who the pest? The book tried
to fill the reader with revulsion of a strange and
dangerous alien species, and then turned the mirror around.
Great science fiction!
Jonathan
s
Parry
> "Texas Max King" <max...@pstx.com> wrote in message
> news:Wb1u7.12692$Kp2.7...@typhoon.austin.rr.com...
> > I'll say it again, just for those that are hearing challenged:
> > The US targets military targets, your buddy
> > cum Laden targets 'innocent' lives.
>
> Over 75% of the "surgical bombings" in Iraq went astray and led to
> "collateral damage": read "civilians." We also targeted - via our
> embargoes - civilians the least able to help themselves. In Vietnam we
> carpet bombed (without regard for the niceities of "innocent" versus
> "commie") Cambodia, with whom we were not at war. Using our money, weapons
> and training, Israel has pinpointed and prosecuted and tortured civilians
> for years. Our role in Argentina's and Iran's (under the shah) suppression
> and killing of its own people (and our complicity in supporting the
> blood/money sucking Saudi elites) and a hundred other activities make your
> naive statements look silly, except to others like yourself, who are too
> apathetic to read beyond the local paper's trivial treatments of various
> subjects.
Actually, Texas King is correct on this one (and sole) point. The US
does only go after military targets. The rub is that, contrary to
international law, the US includes the enemy’s support system -- which
may include infrastructure, power stations, communications, even
civilians as the case may warrant -- as "military" targets. (Not wanting
to be accused of being “anti-American,” I should point out that this
ploy is merely traditional.)
And this is right, because might is right and nobody cares, not so long
as there’s plenty of Texas Kings and an obsequious media around. Israel
doesn’t even have to bother to disguise the fact that it uses death
squads. In the US, there’s virtually unqualified support for Bush’s
weird war. Usually a war comes with at least debates about an “exit
strategy” and so on. In this case, there appears to be little interest
in even the most basics: who is being attacked, for what reason, and
how. Perhaps the justifications will be offered after the fact and
accepted unquestioningly.
-- Parry
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Parry
>
> "Texas Max King" wrote
> [more snips]
> > country. The people ARE the government.
>
Were it actually true, then those living in a democracy could
conceivably be held accountable for their government’s actions; so
perhaps there are no “innocent” victims of war there. Conversely, those
living under a dictatorship couldn’t be held responsible, yet are
punished anyway. In any case, it’s obviously not the case that “the
people are the government.” I doubt “the people” would approve of, for
instance, a policy that condemns a half million children to death
(citing Maosqueda's statistic).
> > most certainly one of them. The idiots that compare
> > military casualties over the years to one fool
> > attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
> > swoop, are just that, idiots.
>
> I'm sure Bin Laden fancies himself as a military genius. What makes him
> different (that is "non-militant")?
Maybe the difference between the most powerful nation that ever existed
and Third World guerrillas, or between a rogue nation / global outlaw
and a bunch of religious maniacs. And undoubtedly the civilian victims
of napalm, cluster bombs, and missiles were glad to be the casualties of
American righteousness rather than evil terrorism.
> > If you don't believe in
> > this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> > anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> > then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> > think is better. I hope everyone heard me here.
> > I immigrated from a Communist dictatorhip in 1961
> [snip]
>
> The way they have this country fucked up, I've had a hard enough time moving
> out of town, or even any where in general.
I recall this “America, love it or leave it” canard from when I was a
kid, when it was directed at civil rights and anti-Vietnam protesters.
It’s as senseless as it ever was. If one cares about these things, he
should try to correct injustice rather than run away from it. And the
only reason the ugly facts are brought to light is because they
represent things that need to be changed. Patriotism is a type of
blindness, so the facts are simply stamped “anti-Americanism” and
disappear from Texas King’s thoughts like a snowflake in a bonfire. The
Texan’s response to the Maosqueda article is to entirely ignore its
substance and spout criminally insane “my country, right or wrong”
rhetoric. The reality of a half million dead children doesn’t sink in a
millimetre. The surrealists have always loathed patriotism; another time
when surrealism was right. Patriots would be ostriches with buried heads
were they not already disgusting pigs.
> We may not be
> > perfect in everything we do, but we are a lot better
> > off than 99% of the rest of the world and we will continue
> > to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
>
> You know how long they've being trying to force that stinky shit down my
> mouth? You opened wide for the little airplane like a good A.I.
It’s all ridiculous. Texan perceives no connection between the comforts
of the western middle classes and the impoverishment of the Third World.
The disparity appears to be attributed to progress, or perhaps the
inherent superiority of westerners. In fact, colonizers have always
enjoyed better lives than the colonized; that’s the whole point of the
system.
> > The 'US military' you so easily attack has stood up
> > to tyrants over the years
Well this is like shooting fish in a barrel with high-tech fish-seeking
missiles, so I’ll sign off here.
Parry
>
> McNutt wrote:
> > Dale, there is an author of some isolated renown,
> > who once proposed that a free
> > society could best be governed only by those who
> > had given service. This meant, to a large extent,
> > service in the military.
Undoubtedly a proposal cooked up by somebody with military service.
Would Bush’s drunken, abbreviated stint count as credit? Anyway, there
have been plenty of governments full of military stripes -- Indonesia,
Argentina, even Israel, etc. Not the most enlightened governments, I’d
guess. Someone once proposed a society ruled by philosophers. Why don’t
we give that a whirl?
> I'm not sure if we're talking about the same author, but Robert Heinlein
> discussed the idea in his book, "Starship Troopers". What a horrible
> book that was. The politics of it were so convoluted and perverse -- he
> wants to bring back public floggings -- that many people have difficulty
> determining whether or not the book is satire. When they made a movie
> version of the novel, they sided strongly with the satirist interpretation.
As to the movie, undoubtedly Verhoeven planned the subtext which equated
fascism with patriotism with Americanism to disturb viewers. It’s
actually a very timely movie. As I recall the plot: Earth’s
European-descended powers have been pillaging a desert planet full of
bugs; the bugs rally and get off a volley which destroys one of Earth’s
major cities; Earth declares the attack unprovoked and its youth,
lubricated by an anti-bug / pro-war media campaign, dive into military
service to exterminate the bugs. All it lacks is the crudity of American
strong-arming and the insanity of religion.
Brandon Freels
"j r sherman" wrote
> that's not what you said, oh unaware-one. you said, if i may quote you:
I don't know (and don't want to know) these flag waving idiots that mumble
around town by any name. So what. They're there. Its unfortunate that I can
actually identify stains such as cythera and her co-pilot Chuckles.
> ya know, i don't think someone putting a US flag in their window or on
their car
> makes them bonkers.
As someone who is anti-nationalism/patriotism the action is a hideous
reminder of how this country and others (Bin Laden, for example) dwell on
separating, segregating, and dividing people into as many groups as possible
and then pin them against one another in some "sacred" opposite (which I see
as "bonkers"). The aroma smells something like a pair of rotten diapers,
clasped at the bottom of a garbage can for three months my a squid dressed
up as the pope.
[snips]
> god know's
Please, don't bring "god" into this, Osama. And start capitalizing your
"i"s. Shit.
McNutt
[snip]
>Were it actually true, then those living in a democracy could
> conceivably be held accountable for their government’s actions; so
> perhaps there are no “innocent” victims of war there. Conversely, those
> living under a dictatorship couldn’t be held responsible, yet are
> punished anyway. In any case, it’s obviously not the case that “the
> people are the government.” I doubt “the people” would approve of, for
> instance, a policy that condemns a half million children to death
> (citing Maosqueda's statistic).
So, if a government isn't the aggregate of its citizens, then what is it exactly?
And how is it that the citizens would NOT be held responsible in a democracy? And
as for a dictatorship, these simply deny the true democratic nature of all
government; all the forms of government we have devised since magnon started to
crow.
The majority ruled the Kings of France as much as Classical Athens. Any time a
majority has eaten enough shit sandwiches it hangs its dictators upside down in
the town square. Even the Praetorian Guards wouldn't have stood up to the
majority, had they ever gotten pissed off enough to rebel. We are all governed by
our placid consent. Check out a history book sometime.
>
>
> > > most certainly one of them. The idiots that compare
> > > military casualties over the years to one fool
> > > attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
> > > swoop, are just that, idiots.
> >
> > I'm sure Bin Laden fancies himself as a military genius. What makes him
> > different (that is "non-militant")?
>
> Maybe the difference between the most powerful nation that ever existed
> and Third World guerrillas, or between a rogue nation / global outlaw
> and a bunch of religious maniacs. And undoubtedly the civilian victims
> of napalm, cluster bombs, and missiles were glad to be the casualties of
> American righteousness rather than evil terrorism.
Funny how every dictator who ever lived wanted to be sitting where we sit. How is
it we never conquered the world? We can't even incorporate Puerto Rico, for
crying out loud.
>
>
> > > If you don't believe in
> > > this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> > > anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> > > then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> > > think is better. I hope everyone heard me here.
> > > I immigrated from a Communist dictatorhip in 1961
> > [snip]
> >
> > The way they have this country fucked up, I've had a hard enough time moving
> > out of town, or even any where in general.
>
> I recall this “America, love it or leave it” canard from when I was a
> kid, when it was directed at civil rights and anti-Vietnam protesters.
> It’s as senseless as it ever was. If one cares about these things, he
> should try to correct injustice rather than run away from it. And the
> only reason the ugly facts are brought to light is because they
> represent things that need to be changed. Patriotism is a type of
> blindness, so the facts are simply stamped “anti-Americanism” and
> disappear from Texas King’s thoughts like a snowflake in a bonfire. The
> Texan’s response to the Maosqueda article is to entirely ignore its
> substance and spout criminally insane “my country, right or wrong”
> rhetoric. The reality of a half million dead children doesn’t sink in a
> millimetre. The surrealists have always loathed patriotism; another time
> when surrealism was right. Patriots would be ostriches with buried heads
> were they not already disgusting pigs.
Yes, the surrealists also loath rationalism, but that is fodder for some other
thread.
A lot of what patriotism is about is loving the guy next door, the kid down the
block, thinking of all the people you know in your neighborhood as your own. Even
the idiots and the hapless. It is a decision, it is an understanding that you
have made a pretty good life for yourself (or been handed one), and it is worth
standing up and being counted when that way of life is threatened. Love it is,
blind it is not. Even these days when we make a point of not knowing our
neighbors, patriotism is alive and well, despite what you think about it.
Maybe you think that man doesn't make his own world, but that would make you the
blind one. The proposition that all this "just happens" is the least valid
hypothesis of all, and the one that bears the least fruit. Or perhaps your
proposition is that since you were handed all this, you have a perfect right to
criticize it because you would have done better.
If you, Parry, have it pretty good, its 'cause man made it so. There were 19 year
old boys slowing and stopping Rommels tanks at Kasserine Pass with only
half-tracks, gerrand rifles and their flesh. Had he rolled over them the way the
math indicated------well it's pointless to finish the sentiment, 'cause I'm sure
you think it would have all turned out okay anyway.
>
>
> > We may not be
> > > perfect in everything we do, but we are a lot better
> > > off than 99% of the rest of the world and we will continue
> > > to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
> >
> > You know how long they've being trying to force that stinky shit down my
> > mouth? You opened wide for the little airplane like a good A.I.
>
> It’s all ridiculous. Texan perceives no connection between the comforts
> of the western middle classes and the impoverishment of the Third World.
> The disparity appears to be attributed to progress, or perhaps the
> inherent superiority of westerners. In fact, colonizers have always
> enjoyed better lives than the colonized; that’s the whole point of the
> system.
Damn Europeans, anyway. But what, in heaven's name, does this have to do with
modern Republics? I used to pee in my bed at night. Doesn't mean I was stuck
doing that for the rest of my life, does it? Sure I'm still embarrassed about it,
but would you hold me accountable today?
>
>
> > > The 'US military' you so easily attack has stood up
> > > to tyrants over the years
>
> Well this is like shooting fish in a barrel with high-tech fish-seeking
> missiles, so I’ll sign off here.
Yeah. Tell that to the next American boy you see shipping out for Over There.
--
Art
----------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
---------Rudyard Kipling
McNutt
[snip]
>In the US, there’s virtually unqualified support for Bush’s
> weird war. Usually a war comes with at least debates about an “exit
> strategy” and so on. In this case, there appears to be little interest
> in even the most basics: who is being attacked, for what reason, and
> how. Perhaps the justifications will be offered after the fact and
> accepted unquestioningly.
You may be forced to think out of the box on this one, Parry. Otherwise you may
be running out of your cave shouting "Nohman has done this! Nohman has blinded
me!"
I don't think there is an exit strategy; I'm not sure there can _be_ one. It's
truly a war against irrationality. We've never tried to chew on this one
before. It may make the Hundred Years War look like a wind sprint.
A worthy foe will require worthy effort.
j r sherman
"Brandon says...
>
>
>"j r sherman" wrote
>> that's not what you said, oh unaware-one. you said, if i may quote you:
>
>I don't know (and don't want to know) these flag waving idiots that mumble
>around town by any name. So what. They're there. Its unfortunate that I can
>actually identify stains such as cythera and her co-pilot Chuckles.
if you actually made a teeny-weeny bit more effort the paragraph above could
become coherent.
>> ya know, i don't think someone putting a US flag in their window or on
>their car
>> makes them bonkers.
>
>As someone who is anti-nationalism/patriotism the action is a hideous
>reminder of how this country and others (Bin Laden, for example) dwell on
>separating, segregating, and dividing people into as many groups as possible
>and then pin them against one another in some "sacred" opposite (which I see
>as "bonkers").
how does the US do this? please, some details. you make a mighty big
generalization here, child, you should back them up with some facts and figures.
this DOES require reading, but at heart i'm an optimist.
and allow me to remind you that these evils actions you accuse the US of
committing keeps you in the protection and lifestyle you're not going to give up
for anything, least of all your comical "principles".
>The aroma smells something like a pair of rotten diapers,
>clasped at the bottom of a garbage can for three months my a squid dressed
>up as the pope.
how badly poetic. so, bad poetics takes the place of hard facts and a reasonable
argument. these days they teach children almost nothing, except how to be
intolerant and use a playstation.
>[snips]
>> god know's
>
>Please, don't bring "god" into this, Osama.
a figure of speech. and if you actually did read you'd know this. alas, my fears
are confirmed.
>And start capitalizing your
>"i"s. Shit.
i think not. it amuses me to poke fun at your ignorant views and confirms how
close the "peace" clowns dance on the edge of irrelevancy.
if you read anything you'd know that too.
so stay in your room with your hip-hop heavy metal and keep quiet, so to speak.
the adults are talking about serious subjects here, you have nothing valuable to
add here!
Jean-Phillippe
gnarl <gn...@olypen.xcom> wrote in message
news:1Wpt7.61846$hh.55...@bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> Explore the tens of thousands of posting possibilities in other
newsgroups.
>
> Please?
>
You must be new here. This has been, for years, an anything-goes newsgroup.
Soap opera, melodrama, death threats, lies, parody, shame, anguish,
ridicule. If you don't think she fits in, you should either kill-file her,
or change the channel.
>
> Ink- n. A villainous compound of tanno-gallate of iron, gum-
> Arabic and water, chiefly used to facilitate the infection of
> idiocy and promote intellectual crime...
> ---Ambrose Bierce The Devil's Dictionary
>
>
>
> AAPC FAQ and Resources
> http://www.aapcsite.plus.com/
>
>
> "Lisa Harris" <Lisa.H...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:5Pmt7.15594$W8.12...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > waht the fuck is this suppose to mean? shit...justice needs to be served
> for
> > all those innoscent lives being take away from them....and it wasnt'
just
> > americans who died in those bombings...it was people all over the world
> > including some middle eastern people...so who is the bastards here?
those
> > terrorists are fuckin evil and have no hearts for what they done...they
> > killed innoscent people....u dont know how fuckkn pissed off we all
> > are...the terrorists fucked with the wrong country...it realy piss the
> shit
> > out of me to see terrorist do soemthing so fuckin evil and cruel..i am a
> > christian and never in my life have i been this fuckin pissed...pissed
cuz
> > many innnoscent lives have been taken away...such young children and
> mothers
> > lost their lives due to some one believes or anger gainst america...i
mean
> i
> > can understand some people dislikin america..but shit...we dont deserve
> > anything like this... we truly dont...no one or no country deserve this
> > shit...that is pure evil...pure evil...
> > those terrorist can't fuckin possibly be human for no human not even a
> > serial killer or canibal could do something so evil and heartless...no
> human
> > being deserve to die like that..esp innoscent young children and babies
> and
> > mothers..that is heartless and if any of htose terrorist have young
> children
> > at home and wives...my heart goes out to them too for they have lost
their
> > husbands and fathers...instead of living to see their kids grow up and
> grow
> > old with their wives they choose to kill themselves just cuz they hate
> > america...they should of never done something so evil...really evil and
> > selfish....i do hope they find salvation in the after life...may god be
> with
> > all of us...may god be with us all...but one thing for sure...dont fuck
> with
> > america for we will get justice and justice will be served to those who
> are
> > responsible to this hell on earth
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 9/18/01
>
>
>
Brandon Freels
> Yes, the surrealists also loath rationalism, but that is fodder for some
other
> thread.
"Surrealism does not love to lose its reason; it loves what reason makes us
lose."
---Ferdinand Alquie
Parry
> so stay in your room with your hip-hop heavy metal and keep quiet, so to speak.
> the adults are talking about serious subjects here, you have nothing valuable to
> add here!
>
> love and kisses,
>
> j r sherman
I don't follow the poetry newsgroups, but I'm guessing this barren
condescension routine is standard for jr sherman. Hopefully he's just
the dullest thimble in their sewing kit.
McNutt
[snip]
>"Surrealism does not love to lose its reason; it loves what reason makes us
> lose."
> ---Ferdinand Alquie
Similar to Lau Tsu:
Using the male, being female,
Being the entrance of the world,
You embrace harmony
And become as a newborn.
Using strength, being weak,
Being the root of the world,
You complete harmony
And become as unshaped wood.
Using the light, being dark,
Being the world,
You are in perfect harmony
And return to the Way.
For him, reason wasn't an obstacle, though. It was just a tool that did not
fit the job. I come to Surrealism through art; Miro, Dali, and their pappa:
Duchamp. So, perhaps I don't understand the beauty of killing Mr. Hyde AND Dr.
Jeckle, especially since a reunion was what I wished for them.
Science has taken upon itself the responsibility of destroying religion. When
man asks; "Okay, what do you give us in return?" it answers: "I have killed
the dragon. The rest is YOUR business." So it seems with Surrealism.
Deconstruct reality into a dream fragment, if you must. But don't act like my
five year old and walk away from the broken lamp with only a shrug.
Lau Tsu, at least, provided fruit in subtracting a conventional world view.
His was a revelation that provided completion in the great circle. By the time
you arrived back at yourself, you had both spiritualism AND reason to help
navigate this strange world.
Surrealism is deconstructive only: like science, it kills the dragon then
walks away, leaving none of us better off. Where even the dragon occasionally
protected our hamlet, now there is neither knight nor dragon. Only wolves
baying outside the gates...
--
Art
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
----------------Rudyard Kipling
Jean-Phillippe
Parry <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:3BB652...@perfectOMITmail.com...
> Lisa Harris wrote:
> >
> > waht the fuck is this suppose to mean? shit...justice needs to be served
for
> > all those innoscent lives being take away from them....and it wasnt'
just
> > americans who died in those bombings...it was people all over the world
> > including some middle eastern people...so who is the bastards here?
those
> > terrorists are fuckin evil and have no hearts for what they done...they
> > killed innoscent people....u dont know how fuckkn pissed off we all
> > are...the terrorists fucked with the wrong country...it realy piss the
shit
> > out of me to see terrorist do soemthing so fuckin evil and cruel..i am a
> > christian and never in my life have i been this fuckin pissed...pissed
cuz
> > many innnoscent lives have been taken away...such young children and
mothers
> > lost their lives due to some one believes or anger gainst america...i
mean i
> > can understand some people dislikin america..but shit...we dont deserve
> > anything like this... we truly dont...no one or no country deserve this
> > shit...that is pure evil...pure evil...
>
> your stupid religion and not wave your flag as if you were peddling your
> ass on the docks? As for the rest of your repulsive, shrill,
> overwrought, ill-informed, trite, vacuous, addled, semi-literate,
> specious, hateful, vengeful, arrogant, war-mongering virtual-landfill, I
> have no comment.
>
> -- Parry
>
Perhaps one of your friends can show you how to use that kill-file option.
Far be it from you to tell someone what and where she can post a message.
>
> > those terrorist can't fuckin possibly be human for no human not even a
> > serial killer or canibal could do something so evil and heartless...no
human
> > being deserve to die like that..esp innoscent young children and babies
and
> > mothers..that is heartless and if any of htose terrorist have young
children
> > at home and wives...my heart goes out to them too for they have lost
their
> > husbands and fathers...instead of living to see their kids grow up and
grow
> > old with their wives they choose to kill themselves just cuz they hate
> > america...they should of never done something so evil...really evil and
> > selfish....i do hope they find salvation in the after life...may god be
with
> > all of us...may god be with us all...but one thing for sure...dont fuck
with
> > america for we will get justice and justice will be served to those who
are
> > responsible to this hell on earth
> > >
>
>
>
>
Parry
>
> Parry <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3BB652...@perfectOMITmail.com...
>
> > your stupid religion and not wave your flag as if you were peddling your
> > ass on the docks? As for the rest of your repulsive, shrill,
> > overwrought, ill-informed, trite, vacuous, addled, semi-literate,
> > specious, hateful, vengeful, arrogant, war-mongering virtual-landfill, I
> > have no comment.
>
> Far be it from you to tell someone what and where she can post a message.
Don't be asinine, I did no such thing. If Free Agent had a kill-file
option I'd probably be using it right now.
-- Parry
Jean-Phillippe
Parry <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
> j r sherman wrote:
> > so stay in your room with your hip-hop heavy metal and keep quiet, so to
speak.
> > the adults are talking about serious subjects here, you have nothing
valuable to
> > add here!
> >
> > love and kisses,
> >
> > j r sherman
>
> I don't follow the poetry newsgroups, but I'm guessing this barren
> condescension routine is standard for jr sherman. Hopefully he's just
> the dullest thimble in their sewing kit.
>
> -- Parry
>
Hit the name on the head.
Dale Houstman
"Parry" <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:3BB95A...@perfectOMITmail.com...
> > so stay in your room with your hip-hop heavy metal and keep quiet, so to
speak.
> > the adults are talking about serious subjects here, you have nothing
valuable to
> > add here!
> >
> > love and kisses,
> >
> > j r sherman
>
> I don't follow the poetry newsgroups, but I'm guessing this barren
> condescension routine is standard for jr sherman. Hopefully he's just
> the dullest thimble in their sewing kit.
>
Not by a long shot, (for one thing that narcissistic-hysteric "cythera"
hangs her little poutings on this tree), but he'll do in a pinch. There's a
rather long list of frequent and infrequent idiocy machines that operate
here.
dmh
E Selow
> j r sherman wrote:
> > so stay in your room with your hip-hop heavy metal and keep quiet,
so to speak.
> > the adults are talking about serious subjects here, you have
nothing valuable to
> > add here!
> >
> > love and kisses,
> >
> > j r sherman
>
> I don't follow the poetry newsgroups, but I'm guessing this barren
> condescension routine is standard for jr sherman. Hopefully he's
just
> the dullest thimble in their sewing kit.
Ha, he's one of our hottest needles!
Elvira
MikeW
E Selow wrote:
he certainly needles a few folks..
next...
Mike Warren.
j r sherman
>
>j r sherman wrote:
>>so stay in your room with your hip-hop heavy metal and keep quiet, so to speak.
>>the adults are talking about serious subjects here, you have nothing valuable to
>> add here!
>>
>> love and kisses,
>>
>> j r sherman
>
>I don't follow the poetry newsgroups,
so it would seem.
>but I'm guessing this barren
>condescension routine is standard for jr sherman.
only to stupid people. Stupid people need to be informed of their stupidity.
it's kinda like god's work only a lot more fun.
>Hopefully he's just
>the dullest thimble in their sewing kit.
i take notice of how far the creativity of the surrealist crowd has fallen.
and i wasn't being condescending, i was being rude, there's a difference.
j r sherman
says...
so surrealism requires you to be stupid on purpose?
just curious.
j r sherman
"Jean-Phillippe" says...
psychopaths (like you, of course) are always jealous of me, michael. i get to
have all the fun of being insane without having to threaten people (like you).
a spoon full of sugar makes the heavy psychotic drug go down, mike.
j r sherman
i don't "needle", per se, as much as i feel the almost holy need to "correct".
in a world more full of weeping than you can understand, (who says WB wasn't
surreal?) shouldn't smart people correct the stupid?
you see, mike, there is no black or white, men or women, rich or poor. it's
smart and stupid people.
now unfortunately the stupid people are legally protected, so we can't kill them
off (just yet). the only thing we can do is correct their stupid and ignorant
ways. and i would like to think that my correcting of the stupid people is my
way of trying to make this world a better place.
and don't we all want the world to be a better place? a place where we smart
people are served by stupid people?
of course we do.
so let's not say "needle", let's say "correct". i correct people, and that's
all.
god bless.
renay
"j r sherman" <jr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9pckb...@drn.newsguy.com...
> so surrealism requires you to be stupid on purpose?
*****maybe he's really smart but has to use the
unnatural juxtaposition presented in his posts as
a way to fit with the a.s. crowd. which would,
instead, make him a brainless follower.
Renay
Dale Houstman
"E Selow" <sis...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:9pcavm$h91$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
dmh
Sherrie Lee
Some things of late deal with idealism and reality.
1. The world isn't ideal; it's real.
2. We musn't give up our ideals in this real world.
3. Surrealists seek inner reality through the ideal that symbolic
expression of subconsciousness or unconsciousness reveals this to an
outer reality.
4. The world is run by stupid people.
5. Derived from some really famous philosopher: smart people
rationalise that it's okay to work for stupid people because smart
people need money and stupid people give it to smart people if smart
people work for them.
6. Smart people are both smart and stupid.
7. Stupid people are both smart and stupid because they hire both
smart and stupid people.
8. Mark Twain: "All you need is ignorance and confidence; then
success is sure."
9. Some really famous philosopher: Doubt leads to paralysis.
10. Let art worship life which is all of the above and all of the
below and the infinite possibilities between including the death of
the dragon and other deaths. Is this a rule or not? Does it
contradict infinite possibilities?
11. Religion is about worshipping rules.
12. If yard sticks measure a yard then why are they only a unit of
measurement and not the yard itself? If this is not true then is it
both?
13. If religion worships rules then they worship measurement.
14. If science deconstructs religion then they are trying to find the
smallest unit of measurement. This could take forever unless they
destroy the measurement. This would then be the end for both science
and religion.
15. If surrealists slay the dragon, wipe their hands and walk away;
then they aren't surrealists; they gave up their ideal in a real
world. But are dragons real?
16. Artists don't walk away unless the dragon was both smart and
stupid. Their job is done. But then they'd also no longer be
artists. Begging the question:
17. What'd they be? cuz they better not be both smart and stupid.
They'd be dead.
Sherrie Lee (practising surrealism in a non-surrealist manner by
slaying the dragon and walking away from seventeen when 18 is possible
but prime numbers rule which is probably a religion and not science
because science that she knows of hasn't deconstructed the prime
number beyond one and itself. Maybe that's redundant.
<<<<<Yawn stretch >>>> Awakening from her dream.)
j r sherman
or a Green Party member, one or the other. :D
Texas Max King
"Dale Houstman" stuck his phlegm on
the eternal wall of mucus:
> He's just a . . .
Two words Dale . . .
go away
j r sherman
testy-testy, dale. you forget i'm one of the few and proud who defends your
right to post whatever comical, clown-like, outdated, outlandish opinions you
wish to post. i'm the only friend you've got.
suuuuurrrreee, there are others around who may claim to wave the "man, let's
live in the 60s" freak flag with you, but when push comes to shove the only
people you'll be able to trust is the people who defend your right to speak but
think what's you're saying is dumb.
pretty ironic, ain't it?
so don't be so testy. chill out. have a beer.
Texas Max King
"renay" wrote:
>which would, instead, make him a brainless follower.
you mean another 'sheep of god'
cum to take away the suns of the world
Art McNutt
[snip truisms (syllogisms) 1-15]
>
>
> 16. Artists don't walk away unless the dragon was both smart and
> stupid. Their job is done. But then they'd also no longer be
> artists.
Artist do not kill dragons, as a friend recently reminded me, they ride them.
> Begging the question:
>
> 17. What'd they be? cuz they better not be both smart and stupid.
> They'd be dead.
Since artists ride dragons, they would be neither smart nor stupid; they would be
Dragonbane, which is a place trickier than the middle of the road is to occupy. Whereas
dragons kill or defend the hamlets of man, artists deflect them from their tasks and
aims. Once in a while, an artist will tame a dragon. Van Gogh came close, but he couldn't
handle the sheer weight in the end, and it crushed him. Having a broken hoof, he knew
what he had to do, and did it like any good cowboy would.
Are dragons real? Yes they are, but sometimes they magically take on the shape of an
airbus or a truckload of kerosine-soaked ammonia.
A couple of dragons were recently Caught on Tape, attacking the the Great Towers of the
Wizards of York and the Citadel of the Lord Martials.
I understand that a battalion of Van Goghs are sailing towards a particular hamlet, just
beyond the Misty Mountains, far past Rivendale. The Great Wastelands I believe they are
called, as indicated by the cryptic Runes on t he mystical map. They will ride the Great
Spawner of Dragons; The Grand Dragon Himself, and his minions too. This will buy time for
the Alchemists and Scientist to bring to bear their deadly arts. Thus will we/they slay
him, cruel and beautiful wizards that we are.
Many songs will be sung. Many heroes will be born, many more will be borne home in
flag-draped boxes. If defeated, the Dragons will sink back into the safety of rhyme and
myth. They will regrow their armor and await the next time they are summoned by the
Man-haters.
---
Art
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!
------Rudyard Kipling
j r sherman
no, no, maxie, you must understand, dale comes from those twilight years when ya
said a slogan, marched a few blocks with your fist in the air, listened to
Steppenwolf a lot, and you personally felt like you had changed the course of
American history for the better.
see, for some people it's the 60s again. these are the people who sorta have
this template for all occasions and events. a single reaction to any moment. but
the problem is this tragedy doesn't have a clear cut answer...there's no easy
slogan or leftist template that can define it all. so, instead of actually
stopping and thinking about it, they do what they've always done, go with the
same old slogans, mutter the same old outdated phrases and push the same old
template philosophy, because that's sure as shit a hell of a lot easier than
thinking, or thinking for themselves.
so, have some understanding for people like dale. they're lost. the box just
doesn't fit like it once did.
who says i'm a mean person?
love and kisses,
j r sherman
p.s. hell, the left is sitting around wishing the US WOULD bomb somebody. the
longer we don't, the more their whole argument deteriorates.
Sherrie Lee
wrote:
>>
>
>[snip truisms (syllogisms) 1-15]
you are too generous, my friend. too generous.
>> 16. Artists don't walk away unless the dragon was both smart and
>> stupid. Their job is done. But then they'd also no longer be
>> artists.
>
>Artist do not kill dragons, as a friend recently reminded me, they
ride them.
yippee! then we remain artists!
>> Begging the question:
>>
>> 17. What'd they be? cuz they better not be both smart and stupid.
>> They'd be dead.
>
>Since artists ride dragons, they would be neither smart nor stupid;
they would be
>Dragonbane, which is a place trickier than the middle of the road is
to occupy. Whereas
>dragons kill or defend the hamlets of man, artists deflect them from
their tasks and
>aims. Once in a while, an artist will tame a dragon. Van Gogh came
close, but he couldn't
>handle the sheer weight in the end, and it crushed him. Having a
broken hoof, he knew
>what he had to do, and did it like any good cowboy would.
>
>Are dragons real? Yes they are, but sometimes they magically take on
the shape of an
>airbus or a truckload of kerosine-soaked ammonia.
oh, this is horrible. i simply can't go on. dragons are my strength.
surely you do not mean dragons. surely. i adore dragons. have ever
since childhood. dragons, dragons, dragons. and they are my celtic
symbol of choice of strength of conquering that which attempts to
defeat me namely myself! you cannot say such things of dragons. i am
in full support of dragons and i am born in the year of the dragon!
no, you are mistaken. the airbus to which you refer was humanity
defeating itself. it had no dragon with which to protect itself. it
followed something called lala. i do not believe any religion, or
science or art or god, or allah or christ or buddah or dragon could
ever do such horrible things.
Sherrie Lee (supporter of dragons)
john adams
"j r sherman" <jr...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:9pd88...@drn.newsguy.com...
What a lot of foolish malarky. Are you sure you aren't the one stuck in the box
with the lights turned out fumbling around with the inapposite dictums you've been
fed about the world but can't stop to think past?
Morpheal
god.... YAHWEH ? These are strange times. Strange times indeed....
All those rabbis now have a major job ahead of them, considering his
or her candidacy for messiahship. I don't envy the bloke or lass,
whatever it might be, that examination. ;-)
M.
Yahweh wrote:
> Americans do not have the stomach for killing. See what well happen
> to your soldier boys soon in a distant land.
> Tell Bush to keep them home with mother.
> This mpeg is not fake so watch at you're risk.
>
> Yahweh
Art McNutt
[snip]
>
> oh, this is horrible. i simply can't go on. dragons are my strength.
> surely you do not mean dragons. surely. i adore dragons. have ever
> since childhood. dragons, dragons, dragons. and they are my celtic
> symbol of choice of strength of conquering that which attempts to
> defeat me namely myself! you cannot say such things of dragons. i am
> in full support of dragons and i am born in the year of the dragon!
Whose blaming the dragons? The evil teamsters bear the guilt, though they
in turn had listened too long to a dragon's beguiling words. The Grand
Dragon--he has flown from Alabama to the Wastelands of the Khan. Regal
and hidden in his cave, he beguiles the forgotten grandchildren of
Ottoman. He whispers the promise of paradise to those who would twist
their souls to resemble demons of old.
They were homicidal artists, these teamsters, and had tamed the dragon
only long enough to fly them to oblivion. No Van Gogh's, they were
cowboys who wouldn't shoot a horse with a broken hoof, but they'd shoot a
horse for blocking the path. Thereby compounding the problem Twenty fold.
Both stupid AND stupid, they are (were).
Remember that dragons can take many forms. They were also seen half a
century ago as Higgins Boats, and were ridden to destiny by Feckless and
Dashing Crusaders of Liberty.
>
>
> no, you are mistaken. the airbus to which you refer was humanity
> defeating itself.
No, I deny that. The evil teamsters were not human. They had traded their
humanity when they discovered the evil art of homicide. Their humanity
was the currency which purchased the fame and glory. It was spent in
bribing the dragons in allowing them to mount them, long enough, in the
end to destroy them.
> it had no dragon with which to protect itself. it
> followed something called lala. i do not believe any religion, or
> science or art or god, or allah or christ or buddah or dragon could
> ever do such horrible things.
Dragons are dragons. Only you or I can judge whether they are good or
evil, but our judgment does not make it so, nor does it change
dragonkind. Whether good or evil, brave and reckless are those who seek
to tame them; brave and admirable are those who seek to ride them. Evil
and reckless are they, who fool the dragons into crushing Towers and
gouging Citadels.
Art
-------
"The song that I will sing is an old song,
so old that none knows who made it. It
has been handed down through generations
and was taught to me when I was but a little lad.
It is now my own song. It belongs to me. This is
a holy song (medicine-song), and great is its power.
The song tells how, as I sing, I go through the air to
a holy place where Yusun (The Supreme Being) will give
me power to do wonderful things. I am surrounded by
little clouds, and as I go through the air I change,
becoming spirit only."
-------------Geronimo (Goyathlay)
sophie
you know that most of this is rubbish, jim.
you know you do.
**
sophie
Morpheal
There is something to be said for dragonification.
M.
Morpheal
No human could do that, could they ?
M.
Morpheal
terrorist spam.....
Now, if the FBI were on the job, they'd have the terrorist spammer
and all that would remain is a little bit of well fried spam...
Then we could be free again to get on with surrealism.
M.
Art McNutt wrote:
>
> Nik Maack wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > I'm not sure if we're talking about the same author, but Robert Heinlein
> > discussed the idea in his book, "Starship Troopers". What a horrible
> > book that was. The politics of it were so convoluted and perverse -- he
> > wants to bring back public floggings -- that many people have difficulty
> > determining whether or not the book is satire. When they made a movie
> > version of the novel, they sided strongly with the satirist interpretation.
>
> "Many people have difficulty determining" is usually a dead give away, Nick,
> indicating the speaker has more predetermined notions than an Arkansas Grand Dragon,
> and as broad an agenda as a candidate who wants to 'count all the votes' as long as
> they are votes for _him_.
>
> I'm glad you've discovered a world view that is able to fit all incoming data into its
> narrow confines. Robert Heinlein was a fascist, Ayn Rand was a Nazi. Its all very Matt
> Groeningesque, and provides great humor for us all. Of course, casting aspersions on
> the idea generators doesn't leave much time to critically analyze the ideas.
>
> But it does make you seem smart.
>
> [snip silly malediction]
>
> --
Morpheal
I always become suspicious when someone is fervently attempting to
egg me into something.... That's when I back off and try to take
some higher ground, to get a more secure vantage point rather than
leaping into the middle of it all. Wouldn't you say that's prudence ?
Prudence and her little pill of wisdom. Whatever happened to Prudence ?
And Alice. What became of her ?
M.
Parry
> Parry wrote:
> [snip]
>
> >Were it actually true, then those living in a democracy could
> > conceivably be held accountable for their government’s actions; so
> > perhaps there are no “innocent” victims of war there. Conversely, those
> > living under a dictatorship couldn’t be held responsible, yet are
> > punished anyway. In any case, it’s obviously not the case that “the
> > people are the government.” I doubt “the people” would approve of, for
> > instance, a policy that condemns a half million children to death
> > (citing Maosqueda's statistic).
>
> So, if a government isn't the aggregate of its citizens, then what is it exactly?
Less an aggregate of its citizens than a competition between business
interests, played out by the two wings of the business party. The
citizens get to pick one or the other then go home and watch the show on
tv for four years.
> And how is it that the citizens would NOT be held responsible in a democracy?
In an American-style democracy? Foreign policies are devised by
technocrats, and often implemented secretly. So the mass of citizens are
not responsible in the sense that they are not part, or often even
aware, of the process.
> And
> as for a dictatorship, these simply deny the true democratic nature of all
> government; all the forms of government we have devised since magnon started to
> crow.
>
> The majority ruled the Kings of France as much as Classical Athens. Any time a
> majority has eaten enough shit sandwiches it hangs its dictators upside down in
> the town square. Even the Praetorian Guards wouldn't have stood up to the
> majority, had they ever gotten pissed off enough to rebel. We are all governed by
> our placid consent. Check out a history book sometime.
The norm has always been that the few rob the many and premise their
rule on the use of force. Placidity is achieved through belief systems.
So, for example, when 19th century workers had no protection or rights
(and could be fired and made destitute for losing a limb on the job),
many were convinced that this was simply the way things had to be.
Since WWII, the US’s use of force has mostly been applied abroad.
Domestically, the abandonment of laissez faire capitalism and the
establishment of capitalist-friendly unions calmed things down. (There
are notable exceptions, of course, usually involving civil rights or
anti-war protests; such as troops in Detroit in 1967 or Los Angeles in
1992.) In the same period, the US has frequently used force to attain
its objectives abroad, conducting operations (sometimes with its own
troops) in Greece, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, Korea, Iran, Guatemala,
Egypt, Lebanon, Vietnam, Cuba, Laos, Chile, Cambodia, Libya, El
Salvador, Grenada, Somalia, Croatia, Sudan, and so on. Who else can
claim such a record in modern times?
> > > > most certainly one of them. The idiots that compare
> > > > military casualties over the years to one fool
> > > > attempting to eradicate 50,000+ innocent lives in one fell
> > > > swoop, are just that, idiots.
> > >
> > > I'm sure Bin Laden fancies himself as a military genius. What makes him
> > > different (that is "non-militant")?
> >
> > Maybe the difference between the most powerful nation that ever existed
> > and Third World guerrillas, or between a rogue nation / global outlaw
> > and a bunch of religious maniacs. And undoubtedly the civilian victims
> > of napalm, cluster bombs, and missiles were glad to be the casualties of
> > American righteousness rather than evil terrorism.
>
> Funny how every dictator who ever lived wanted to be sitting where we sit.
> How is it we never conquered the world? We can't even incorporate Puerto Rico, for
> crying out loud.
It’s rarely the case anymore -- as it was when the US mowed across the
continent under the doctrine of Manifest Destiny -- that nations want to
expand their physical borders. The US doesn’t need any more states, it
just wants to use Puerto Rico as a shooting range. Security concerns now
are to protect the system of global capitalism.
Other than that, the US did, in effect, conquer the world. It came out
of WWII owning half the world’s wealth and was the first nuclear power.
Its dominance on the world stage is unparalleled.
> > > > If you don't believe in
> > > > this countries policies and you don't feel you can do
> > > > anything about it without resorting to the same tactics,
> > > > then get the fuck out of here and go live someplace you
> > > > think is better. I hope everyone heard me here.
> > > > I immigrated from a Communist dictatorhip in 1961
> > > [snip]
> > >
> > > The way they have this country fucked up, I've had a hard enough time moving
> > > out of town, or even any where in general.
> >
> > I recall this “America, love it or leave it” canard from when I was a
> > kid, when it was directed at civil rights and anti-Vietnam protesters.
> > It’s as senseless as it ever was. If one cares about these things, he
> > should try to correct injustice rather than run away from it. And the
> > only reason the ugly facts are brought to light is because they
> > represent things that need to be changed. Patriotism is a type of
> > blindness, so the facts are simply stamped “anti-Americanism” and
> > disappear from Texas King’s thoughts like a snowflake in a bonfire. The
> > Texan’s response to the Maosqueda article is to entirely ignore its
> > substance and spout criminally insane “my country, right or wrong”
> > rhetoric. The reality of a half million dead children doesn’t sink in a
> > millimetre. The surrealists have always loathed patriotism; another time
> > when surrealism was right. Patriots would be ostriches with buried heads
> > were they not already disgusting pigs.
>
> Yes, the surrealists also loath rationalism, but that is fodder for some other
> thread.
>
> A lot of what patriotism is about is loving the guy next door, the kid down the
> block, thinking of all the people you know in your neighborhood as your own. Even
> the idiots and the hapless. It is a decision, it is an understanding that you
> have made a pretty good life for yourself (or been handed one), and it is worth
> standing up and being counted when that way of life is threatened. Love it is,
> blind it is not. Even these days when we make a point of not knowing our
> neighbors, patriotism is alive and well, despite what you think about it.
Patriotism isn’t feelings of humanity or sociability, it’s “devotion to
or love of one’s country.” It’s a useful device for soldiering hatred
towards official enemies (who are also one’s neighbours, in the broad
sense) and stifling criticism domestically. It appears pretty much to be
fervent religious unity transferred to the secular arena of the nation
state.
> Maybe you think that man doesn't make his own world, but that would make you the
> blind one. The proposition that all this "just happens" is the least valid
> hypothesis of all, and the one that bears the least fruit. Or perhaps your
> proposition is that since you were handed all this, you have a perfect right to
> criticize it because you would have done better.
>
> If you, Parry, have it pretty good, its 'cause man made it so. There were 19 year
> old boys slowing and stopping Rommels tanks at Kasserine Pass with only
> half-tracks, gerrand rifles and their flesh. Had he rolled over them the way the
> math indicated------well it's pointless to finish the sentiment, 'cause I'm sure
> you think it would have all turned out okay anyway.
If I have it pretty good, it’s likely because I’m white in the era of
European conquest. I don’t think there’s much point discussing WWII
here. If there’s anybody to thank for defeating the Nazis, it should be
the Soviets, who put the most into that war.
> > > We may not be
> > > > perfect in everything we do, but we are a lot better
> > > > off than 99% of the rest of the world and we will continue
> > > > to be. For all of our faults we are still the best.
> > >
> > > You know how long they've being trying to force that stinky shit down my
> > > mouth? You opened wide for the little airplane like a good A.I.
> >
> > It’s all ridiculous. Texan perceives no connection between the comforts
> > of the western middle classes and the impoverishment of the Third World.
> > The disparity appears to be attributed to progress, or perhaps the
> > inherent superiority of westerners. In fact, colonizers have always
> > enjoyed better lives than the colonized; that’s the whole point of the
> > system.
>
> Damn Europeans, anyway. But what, in heaven's name, does this have to do with
> modern Republics? I used to pee in my bed at night. Doesn't mean I was stuck
> doing that for the rest of my life, does it? Sure I'm still embarrassed about it,
> but would you hold me accountable today?
The current system is colonialist in spirit: the powerful nations
extract oil and other resources, and get cheap labour and markets from
the weaker nations.
> > > > The 'US military' you so easily attack has stood up
> > > > to tyrants over the years
> >
> > Well this is like shooting fish in a barrel with high-tech fish-seeking
> > missiles, so I’ll sign off here.
>
> Yeah. Tell that to the next American boy you see shipping out for Over There.
Frankly, I’m not fond of conversing with drunks. And what’s Over There?
Surely you’re not expecting to see US troops in an Afghanistan ground
war?
-- Parry
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Texas Max King
"john adams" wrote in message ...
>
> "j r sherman" wrote in message ...
> > In article "Texas says...
you got it in a nutshell, JR, well said. My thoughts exactly. This
isn't
frickin' Nam. I was real gung ho for all the promises of the sixties
myself back then. Then most of them sold out to the same fools
they complained so much about. Now it's the same game, people
like Gates, Ellis and crew slung us into their greedy little version
of Future World and for the most part it sucks. But I have to stop
myself and also say there are a lot of great things too. But I pushed
just as hard as the rest for these goodies, so I deserve it. I just
didn't
realize they'd get stuck in the sam rut so soon.
Give a kid a video game and he wants to be Saddam all of a sudden.
The remnants of the sixties are just that, they think all the answers
run along the same game plan as thirty years ago. They don't.
We have to think and act different because it's a different world.
Dale will never understand. His lame and callous remark on the
day of the tragedies shows just how misguided he really is.
It is sad and personally makes me rather nauseous. I've been
experiencing a lot of nausea lately.
I also agree Benny Cum Laden would like to see exactly that,
an immediate strategic attack a la the African embassy
response. I'm hoping we string him along. Use a little strategic
intelligence instead of big guns. Weed 'em out one by one
and then sit them down for a Hannibel Lecter session. Like the
last one where he did a live disection. We should all be able
to walk up, all of us, one at a time and stick our finger in to see if
we
can feel what part of their brain just doesn't function.
Personally I'd use tweezers, plus I wouldn't want to get any of there
nasty brain shit all over me.
> What a lot of foolish malarky. Are you sure you aren't the one stuck in
the box
> with the lights turned out fumbling around with the inapposite dictums
you've been
> fed about the world but can't stop to think past?
John Adams . . . hmmm . . . nice name. Is it real? Are you a direct
descendant?
Or just another thief using the name of one of our patriots in vain?
But if you are a real John Adams, maybe you can give us
your master plan,
so we can all go back to eating
quiche and sushi.
-Max (nice guy in a nasty world)
Texas Max King
"Morpheal" wrote in message ...
> Get this, this guy or gal thinks he or she is the old testament Hebrew
> god.... YAHWEH ? These are strange times. Strange times indeed....
> All those rabbis now have a major job ahead of them, considering his
> or her candidacy for messiahship. I don't envy the bloke or lass,
> whatever it might be, that examination. ;-)
>
> M.
Morphy!!! I didn't know you were a true surrealist
now I understand everything. Even surrealists
have to live in the real world sometime.
I love you kids.
The fool with the holy post that originated
this most enlightening thread is one of the
Hosanna Been Laden followers.
No relation to Yahweh whatsoever.
But the boys at the Big House hopefully
have a handle on he, she, its, most
unholy candle.
I still say it should be called
operation clean sweep
'cause we certainly have our fair share
of worms right here at home.
-Max (new high powered vac in hand, no caps required)
>snip (heretic babel)<
Sherrie Lee
as humans do when they use the dragon, which is neither good nor bad -
he is, like they sometimes use nature to destroy. to destroy himself.
to destroy others. to destroy that which nature creates. but I
cannot go along with total destruction. that man can use the dragon
to destroy the whole of the dragon when taking the dragon as symbol of
conqueror. I'll stand by my dragon even when the dragon conquers me
when I attempt to defeat myself. for the dragon, and only the dragon,
allows me to rule and not defeat. I know, I know. It's very
complicated, therefore I understand your misunderstanding the dragon.
People have done so throughout the ages. that is why he is sometimes
abused in stories and used to symbolise the worst man has to offer -
that of being a premeditative destroyer. accidental destruction is
bad enough. it is carelessness, but if you remember the dragon,
forgiveness is at hand and he will, I guarantee he will, be the root
of all natural force allowing nature to rule! that is creation, and
if it takes the destruction of those who wish to defeat this beautiful
force - then so be it!
Sherrie Lee (smile)
On Tue, 02 Oct 2001 16:55:09 -0500, Art McNutt <arty_...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Sherrie Lee wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>
>> oh, this is horrible. i simply can't go on. dragons are my
strength.
>> surely you do not mean dragons. surely. i adore dragons. have
ever
>> since childhood. dragons, dragons, dragons. and they are my
celtic
>> symbol of choice of strength of conquering that which attempts to
>> defeat me namely myself! you cannot say such things of dragons. i
am
>> in full support of dragons and i am born in the year of the dragon!
>
>Whose blaming the dragons? The evil teamsters bear the guilt, though
they
>in turn had listened too long to a dragon's beguiling words. The
Grand
>Dragon--he has flown from Alabama to the Wastelands of the Khan.
Regal
>and hidden in his cave, he beguiles the forgotten grandchildren of
>Ottoman. He whispers the promise of paradise to those who would twist
>their souls to resemble demons of old.
>
>They were homicidal artists, these teamsters, and had tamed the
dragon
>only long enough to fly them to oblivion. No Van Gogh's, they were
>cowboys who wouldn't shoot a horse with a broken hoof, but they'd
shoot a
>horse for blocking the path. Thereby compounding the problem Twenty
fold.
>Both stupid AND stupid, they are (were).
>
>Remember that dragons can take many forms. They were also seen half a
>century ago as Higgins Boats, and were ridden to destiny by Feckless
and
>Dashing Crusaders of Liberty.
>
>>
>>
>> no, you are mistaken. the airbus to which you refer was humanity
>> defeating itself.
>
>No, I deny that. The evil teamsters were not human. They had traded
their
>humanity when they discovered the evil art of homicide. Their
humanity
>was the currency which purchased the fame and glory. It was spent in
>bribing the dragons in allowing them to mount them, long enough, in
the
>end to destroy them.
>
>> it had no dragon with which to protect itself. it
>> followed something called lala. i do not believe any religion, or
>> science or art or god, or allah or christ or buddah or dragon could
>> ever do such horrible things.
>
Texas Max King
"Morpheal" wrote in message ...
> And Alice. What became of her ?
Prudence won't come out to play,
she's been rather paranoid ever
since she started taking too many pills.
And I think Alice has a restaurant franchise
with outlets in Massachusetts and Texas,
but I've heard she also has a drug problem.
-Max
Parry
> > > see, for some people it's the 60s again. these are the people who sorta
> have
> > > this template for all occasions and events. a single reaction to any
> moment. but
> > > the problem is this tragedy doesn't have a clear cut answer...there's no
> easy
> > > slogan or leftist template that can define it all. so, instead of
> actually
> > > stopping and thinking about it, they do what they've always done, go
> with the
> > > same old slogans, mutter the same old outdated phrases and push the same
> old
> > > template philosophy, because that's sure as shit a hell of a lot easier
> than
> > > thinking, or thinking for themselves.
I see no basis for any of your comments. What slogans have been used, or
what did Dale write that seemed out-dated to you?
j r sherman
>
>Texas Max King wrote:
>> > > see, for some people it's the 60s again. these are the people who sorta
>> have
>> > > this template for all occasions and events. a single reaction to any
>> moment. but
>> > > the problem is this tragedy doesn't have a clear cut answer...there's no
>> easy
>> > > slogan or leftist template that can define it all. so, instead of
>> actually
>> > > stopping and thinking about it, they do what they've always done, go
>> with the
>> > > same old slogans, mutter the same old outdated phrases and push the same
>> old
>> > > template philosophy, because that's sure as shit a hell of a lot easier
>> than
>> > > thinking, or thinking for themselves.
>
>I see no basis for any of your comments. What slogans have been used, or
>what did Dale write that seemed out-dated to you?
>
>-- Parry
>
it's only a matter of time, sparky. before ya know it you'll all be singing the
Internationale and reciting Jim Morrison poems.
the Morrison thing alone should annul your claim to any real civil disobedience.
now THAT'S surrealism!
Dale Houstman
"Parry" <pa...@perfectOMITmail.com> wrote in message
news:3BBA62...@perfectOMITmail.com...
> Texas Max King wrote:
> > > > see, for some people it's the 60s again. these are the people who
sorta
> > have
> > > > this template for all occasions and events. a single reaction to any
> > moment. but
> > > > the problem is this tragedy doesn't have a clear cut
answer...there's no
> > easy
> > > > slogan or leftist template that can define it all. so, instead of
> > actually
> > > > stopping and thinking about it, they do what they've always done, go
> > with the
> > > > same old slogans, mutter the same old outdated phrases and push the
same
> > old
> > > > template philosophy, because that's sure as shit a hell of a lot
easier
> > than
> > > > thinking, or thinking for themselves.
>
> I see no basis for any of your comments. What slogans have been used, or
> what did Dale write that seemed out-dated to you?
>
Well, as I have learned from the abysmal level of discourse on this and
other groups, it seems that intelligence itself is out-dated. Pavolovian
flag salivation appears to be the order of the day.
But there are the occasional bright spots out there. I heard today that a
fire department crew in Florida refused to put American flags all over
themselves and their equipment, because they feel America hasn't been living
up to its own promise. So some free-thinking is going on.
dmh
anon...@bogus_address.con
On 2001-10-02 jr...@earthlink.net said:
>no, no, maxie, you must understand, dale comes from those twilight
>years when ya said a slogan, marched a few blocks with your fist in
>the air, listened to Steppenwolf a lot, and you personally felt
>like you had changed the course of American history for the better.
Heh! Well put! :)
Kinda like the 'feel-your-pain' symbolism-over-substance of
the Billy-Bob Jefferson Blyth 'Bubba' Klinton administration.
If you =feel bad= about something (a social injustice, per-
haps) and =talk= about it...well, then, that's equated as
having actually DONE something.
>love and kisses,
>j r sherman
Uh...no, thanks. I'm not programmed that way.