Steptext
Anthony
ignorant I am.
What is the point of something like Steptext? I suppose I'm a relative
newcomer to the world of ballet, and my tastes are rather simple and
conservative as you might imagine: I like the full-length classics,
though I particularly enjoy pieces like "Apollo".
Every time I see a work like Steptext, part of me says "Hmmm, I don't
quite understand this; it must be very clever, and maybe one day I'll
understand what the point is, if I watch enough ballet."
But another part of me is reacting perhaps more naturally - I couldn't
help hating the jarring interruptions (the sections of 'proper' dance
were marvellous - while they lasted) and wondering if it wasn't all a
little indulgent and pretentious for a mainstream audience.
Being an 'outsider' of sorts (i.e. someone who wasn't brought up in the
world of ballet, & therefore doesn't inherently have a camp to defend),
I occasionally see why the general public are so easily swung by critics
of the arts. (By 'critics' I mean the people who argue that the
funding/airtime allocated to the arts is wasted, and should be spent on
even more soccer coverage - not the person who writes the dance column
in the paper.) This makes me sad, because I'm now also a total 'convert'
- I love dance, and I wish it were given a lot more (positive) coverage
in the media.
But I can't help having a deep and terrible suspicion that some of these
avant-garde works are really only entertaining a select few among the
audience, and that much of the voiced approval is based on the Emperor's
New Clothes phenomenon.
Or am I really just inexperienced? Will I one day like Steptext as much
as I enjoy more traditional works? Is it a taste that's acquired as a
result of over-familiarity with simpler, more straightforward pieces?
When I first delighted in Vivaldi's Four Seasons, I turned up my nose at
Shostakovitch. Nowadays, all Four Seasons sound a bit tired and
over-worked to me; but instead, I've grown love the sheer intensity and
depth of Shostakovitch's symphonies. Does the same happen in dance?
Anthony
bek
Talk about ingnorance.
What exactly is 'STEP TEXT?"
I haven't heard of this at all.
Most people who like ballet will perhaps like modern, but the avant guard
stuff is a bit silly in my mind, and generally not dancing.
They do try to make a statement, and I suppose that is good, and then call
it: performance art.
There was a photo in our paper the other day of "dance group" from Japan who
went to Australia and buried themselves up to their chests in the sand.
This was considered Performance Art..........they were protesting something
in Japan.
So, why did they do this in Austrailia????????????
SIGH>>>>>
I am not big on this stuff myself.
Any non trained idiot can bury self in sand.
And hand poster on neck.
Wonder if they got out before the tide came in.
NOW THAT would have been performance art.
See the dancers trying to get out of their holes before drowning.
Sorry, a bit morbid, but most of these groups are morbid.
bek
Adamchick
space allowed I can try my attempt at answering it. First of all, often what
we call avant garde is just new or unfamiliar. We base our tastes, or even our
religious beliefs or politics on what we've grown up with. Of course this is
combined with our own personality and expeirence.
One of the important things about Steptext is that all the vocabulary is still
ballet steps. But, the directions, levels, timing and musicality are
readjusted or, as the popular term says "deconstructed."
Why? Well, I can't begin to say completely, but here's some thoughts.
Interruptions. One goal of such things, is to rearrange our attitudes about
time and space. We are accustomed to "performance" having a beginning, middle
and end. But so much of our stimuli in life doesn't work that way. Beautiful,
strange, and wondros things happen in snippets and moments all the time. If
you're riding the bus, you might see a lovely women crying and reading
something on a park bench. It's a beautiful moment, and you will do some
"filling in" to make something more of it. That is, think of what led to that
moment, and then try to think what will happen after it. But you can't help
being effected by the moment itself-its sadness and beauty. So, with the
curtain coming down. The standard idea of "climax " etc. is stood on its end.
If one stops worrying about how they NORMALLY watch a performance, and relax,
without thinking about whether it's like other things or avant garde, one can
see it as creating ballet moments, some beautiful, some mysterious, but
now,with interruptions, completely unexpected. Beginning and end are not so
clear. So, you don't sit back. You watch more closely. You no longer wait for
choreographer to telegraph what is MOST important, he lets YOU decide. Another
thing about the interruptions is that it stretches time as well. Gives the eery
impression that the dancers may be dancing while the curtain is down. Add to
that the more abstract suspension of reality, and let your immagination play
with the idea that the dancers may have been dancing before you began watching
it AT ALL, and that they may continue to dance after the final curtain. This
gives the feeling that the viewer is peering into (hence the dim lights)
another world. A world of beauty, intensity, sensuality etc. Almost alien, but
certainly interesting. We need to relax about not understanding things. Good
modern artists don't demand that you see what THEY see, they usually say, "see
what you see." Accept the fact that everthing is different for everyone. And
that when something is abstract, it can free us to apply our own imagination
into the experience.
I could go on forever. As for BEK. Oy. There is good contemporary art and
bad. But noting is good without patience and an open mind. Most of the ballet
you like, was once hated. Appollo was hated by thousands of people, as was
almost everything made by the Ballet Russes. enough for now.
Leigh Witchel
All good questions, Adam covers it well when he says that Forsythe uses
the interruptions as a device to focus the audience. When it works,
(which I think it does in a similar Forsythe work called Artifact II, where
the curtain comes down and up at seemingly random moments) it divides the
dance into fragments as interesting as fragments of a poem by
Sappho. They are more fascinating for the parts we can't read. Also, as
Adam says, it forces the audience to question their assumptions about how
a dance is made.
On the other side of the issue, yes, it's combative. If you don't do such
effects well as a choreographer you simply end up seeming like a bad host
if you will. People have paid money to see this, and you're attacking
them. You need to know when an audience is ready and open, and when
you've gone from challenging them to assaulting them.
As an audience member, it's important for you also to view ballet assuming
that, though a broader viewing experience never hurts, you should be able
to get something out of the work you're seeing with the knowledge you
bring with you to the theater that day. Don't watch dance assuming you're
not clever enough to watch it (this reminds me of Gilbert and Sullivan's
Patience, "If this young man expresses himself in terms too deep for me,
why what a very singularly deep young man this deep young man must
be!") What you see, think and feel while watching a dance isn't
"wrong". It's what you saw. There are multiple possibilities and that's
part of the fun.
Will you grow to like Steptext? I hope so! Will you grow to prefer
it? Well, we all go through phases. I've been watching Forsythe's work
for more than a decade now. Once I thought it was amazing. I like it
less now, he's not meat and potatoes for me, he's a sweetmeat like
marzipan (if you'd like to hear more fully why, I've got 7,000
words worth of reasons in the Spring 2000 issue of Ballet
Review!) Unlike Balanchine which I can watch and feel nourished
I don't want a steady diet of Forsythe. One occasionally will do.
LAW
--
Leigh Witchel - d...@panix.com http://members.aol.com/lwitchel
New York City Ballet Principal Peter Boal performs with Dance as Ever on
September 28-October 1, 2000. For more information, visit
http://members.aol.com/dnceasever
Anthony
> First of all, often what
> we call avant garde is just new or unfamiliar. We base our tastes, or even our
> religious beliefs or politics on what we've grown up with. Of course this is
> combined with our own personality and expeirence.
Yup, I agree with that. Except I'm in the rather unusual situation of having become
interested in dance comparatively suddenly, with absolutely no prior exposure to
it. (And I mean exposure - not just experience.)
During the time that I've become immersed in dance, I've attempted to keep a fairly
even eye on both classical and modern - while attending ballet classes, I've also
been to some modern dance classes too. The books I've bought have been about ballet
_and_ modern dance, and the performances I've watched have been roughly evenly
split each way too. You can see what I'm getting at. Perhaps my only prior bias
lies in my musical taste.
> Interruptions. One goal of such things, is to rearrange our attitudes about
> time and space. We are accustomed to "performance" having a beginning, middle
> and end. But so much of our stimuli in life doesn't work that way.
True.... but a lot of life does work that way too. And I do enjoy some sense of
structure - it's nice to experience something that is obviously complete, whether
it be a painting, a symphony, or even a well-built machine.
> Beautiful,
> strange, and wondros things happen in snippets and moments all the time. If
> you're riding the bus, you might see a lovely women crying and reading
> something on a park bench. It's a beautiful moment, and you will do some
> "filling in" to make something more of it. That is, think of what led to that
> moment, and then try to think what will happen after it. But you can't help
> being effected by the moment itself-its sadness and beauty.
I do see your point - some of the brief images of these pieces do remain in my
memory in a haunting sort of way. But the same is true of more classical pieces,
and they seem to make more sense - I enjoy them more; they're satisfying,
heartwarming, refreshing, inspiring, whatever.... not a frustrating collage of
intriguing but transient and detached images.
> You no longer wait for
> choreographer to telegraph what is MOST important, he lets YOU decide.
I've never enjoyed a piece of music where the composer left me to decide what he
was trying to convey. Even with what I consider to be 'difficult' pieces, it still
becomes apparent what emotions were going through the composer's mind; though it
may take me a few years to learn his language and understand what he's saying.
> Another
> thing about the interruptions is that it stretches time as well. Gives the eery
> impression that the dancers may be dancing while the curtain is down.
But I don't really need that - for me, the villagers in Coppelia often dance in
their square; the Montagues regularly fight with the Capulets, and Christmas comes
every year in the Stahlbaum household....
> Add to
> that the more abstract suspension of reality, and let your immagination play
> with the idea that the dancers may have been dancing before you began watching
> it AT ALL, and that they may continue to dance after the final curtain. This
> gives the feeling that the viewer is peering into (hence the dim lights)
> another world. A world of beauty, intensity, sensuality etc. Almost alien, but
> certainly interesting.
But these for me are very visual concepts, not associated with music or motion. I
could look at a photo and get the same experience, with good lighting. In fact,
photos are often a marvellous way to catch the kind of brief, intriguing glimpses
you refer to - and for making you wonder about the circumstances surrounding that
frozen moment.
> We need to relax about not understanding things. Good
> modern artists don't demand that you see what THEY see, they usually say, "see
> what you see."
(I often see disorder and confusion - but I don't really want to.)
Thanks for your reply to my posting, Adamchick - it's certainly a very interesting
insight in to what someone who appreciates these things is getting out of them. But
I'm beginning to suspect I may never like 'deconstruction', if only because I look
for such different things in dance. Perhaps modern dance is not the progression of
evolving classical dance as I'd previously thought, but an entirely different
creature?
Leigh Witchel wrote (referring to the interruptions in Steptext):
> On the other side of the issue, yes, it's combative. If you don't do such
> effects well as a choreographer you simply end up seeming like a bad host
> if you will. People have paid money to see this, and you're attacking
> them. You need to know when an audience is ready and open, and when
> you've gone from challenging them to assaulting them.
Absolutely spot on - it seems like an 'in-yer-face' challenge, and I have to be
honest: I don't like things like that. When I get fed up, I become more
narrow-minded, not less - I start to feel myself edging towards the opinion I've
been carefully avoiding thus far: outright condemnation.
> Will you grow to like Steptext? I hope so! Will you grow to prefer
> it? Well, we all go through phases. I've been watching Forsythe's work
> for more than a decade now. Once I thought it was amazing. I like it
> less now, he's not meat and potatoes for me, he's a sweetmeat like
> marzipan (if you'd like to hear more fully why, I've got 7,000
> words worth of reasons in the Spring 2000 issue of Ballet
> Review!) Unlike Balanchine which I can watch and feel nourished
> I don't want a steady diet of Forsythe. One occasionally will do.
Ah, now I'm interested you say that - I would make exactly the same analogy.
Steptext is for me an interesting oddity, something to watch for variety every once
in a while, when you're looking for a taste of the unusual. Not something to thrive
on. And I'd make exactly the same statement about all of modern dance - yes it's
intriguing from time to time. But what I don't understand is why so many people
thrive on modern dance alone, and why work that is so very (deliberately) different
from classical ballet has come to occupy such a large part of the ballet world. I'm
not critical of modern dance - I assume that I simply don't 'get' what it's all
about, but I'm sure that's my shortcoming, not the choreographer's.
Perhaps what does irk me a little is that the precious televised coverage of dance,
such as the Summer Dance season we're being treated to here on BBC2, seems heavily
biased towards modern forms. Though again I point out that I don't wantonly
criticise modern, I feel that the audience are being introduced to dance in it's
most abstract, and often indigestible, form*. I'd be happier if they drew clearer
lines, and pointed out that 'this is modern, that over there is classical. They're
different.' The problem is, the Summer Dance series is introduced by Deborah Bull!
(Whom I greatly respect and admire, incidentally; but for me, she's the face of
classical ballet, not modern dance.)
Well I hope I haven't infuriated anyone, but I had to ask about Steptext (and
modern dance in general.) I guess it's fairly clear my tastes are rather
"old-fashioned"!
Anthony
-----------------------------------------------------
* I suspect my frustration comes from watching 'uninitiated' viewers reacting to
such televised (modern) dance; I'm afraid their reaction was as hostile as you can
imagine.
Anthony
bek wrote:
> X-47933-Poster: "bek" <cca...@home.com>
>
> Talk about ingnorance.
> What exactly is 'STEP TEXT?"
A piece by William Forsythe, for a woman and three men. I'm afraid I didn't
absorb it very well, but essentially it seemed to consist of rather angular &
athletic dance duets performed to chopped excerpts of Bach's D- Chaconne
(Partita No. 2?).
The most memorable features were the constant interruptions to the music;
occasionally no more than a distressed squawk escaped from the violin. Grrrrrr!
It also has a(n in)famous 'beginning', whereby the dancers amble around the
semi-lit stage for several minutes while the house-lights are up, before the
majority of the audience become aware that something is happening. (In the
televised version I saw, most of them twigged when Deborah Bull, standing
front-of-stage, started to make intense and violent motions with her arms, held
squared in front of her face. A motif which reappeared elsewhere in the
performance, as a sort of sign-language communication? Looked like she was
coaching/partnering an invisible boxer.)
> I haven't heard of this at all.
> Most people who like ballet will perhaps like modern, but the avant guard
> stuff is a bit silly in my mind, and generally not dancing.
An opinion I'm beginning to form, reluctantly.
> There was a photo in our paper the other day of "dance group" from Japan who
> went to Australia and buried themselves up to their chests in the sand.
Why stop at their chests? Finish the job properly, I say - there's plenty of
sand.
>;-)
A.
Leigh Witchel
All of your observations are good ones, but what I'd add is the caveat
that "Modern Dance" is a *very* large animal ranging from formalists ike
Merce Cunningham to minimalists like Yvonne Rainier to post-modern
choreographers like David Gordon. Ballet also is a house with many
rooms! If you aren't crazy about the furniture in one of them, try
another room!
In America, two "moderns" most ballet oriented people tend to find
accessible are Paul Taylor (and less so, but also) Merce
Cunningham. Taylor's musicality is deft like Balanchine's, with
Cunningham the bridge between the disciplines lies not in the musicality,
but in the physicality, especially the use of the legs, and the formality
of the structures (even when he uses chance to choreograph) warning: for
people for whom ballet is all about music, he's rough going. Try the
video of "Points in Space" - which is rechoreographed specifically for
camera and has a rather pretty "soundscape" by John Cage. It's a good
place to start with Cunningham.
You'll find things to like in modern dance for their similarity to ballet,
and also things to like because modern does them better than ballet does
(like weight and gravity.) The only misconceptions I'd like to skewer
before you even hear them are:
(From the modern camp) People interested in ballet have simply not evolved
enough to appreciate modern yet.
(From the ballet camp) Modern dancers are just dancers whose bodies were
not good enough to do ballet, or ballet dancers who wanted something
easier to do.
You may hear either one of those two. They're both ridiculous.
MichaelG
With all due respect, when most people go out to see dance, musical
theatre, movies or whatever the last thing they want to do is sit there and
attempt to intellectualize about what they just saw while at the same time
attempt to see, absorb and then figure out what they are currently looking
at. They exist and WORK to survive all week long in the real world and what
they want is a distraction. They do not want to WORK at being entertained.
I do understand there is a very small minority of intellectuals, pseudo and
otherwise, who seek out the avant-garde. Perhaps for these people life
itself is a distraction and they are simply bored by it all so they try to
assign meaning to the meaningless, like pontificating over a blank canvas or
a urinal hanging on the wall. I see it as intellectual masturbation which
has its merits, if any, in the momentary satisfaction of the members of
trendy cliques who choose to participate. There seems to be plenty of
artists willing to court these types of patrons. And there is nothing wrong
with that. Many of these potential patrons have money and influence and can
provide a certain amount of attention and success for an artist and I do not
blame them for exploiting these opportunities. If there are people who
would pay an ungodly sum for a blank canvas then I say somebody make them
pay! If somebody could get a hundred people to pay $20.00 each to see some
guy on stage sitting naked in a chair while posing as Rodin's "The Thinker",
Then by all means go for it! People absolutely have the right to do what
they want.......until they decide they have some right for the government to
confiscated money from others to pay for it.
MG
MichaelG
While I am on a roll...........
The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and very
simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
"Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
Now excuse me but I don't get it! Perhaps someone out there can enlighten
me to the esoteric nuances of this ad.
BTW I am going to e-mail the AB and ask them WHaaasssssuuuuuupppp!!!!
MG
Leigh Witchel
Michael:
There's high art and low art out there. Lumping all high art into an
ivory tower and labelling it as "Things I don't Understand and Like Even
Less" is the worst thing you can do for artists and the culture in
general. The middle needs the periphery to enrich itself; art needs those
who work on the edges in "Research and Development", the thoughts that
come out of that wind up on VH1 one day. At the same time artists should
not isolate themselves from culture either, but to assume that art's
primary purpose is to entertain I think is wrong. Its primary purpose is
to communicate, and there is a significant difference.
MichaelG
Leigh,
Characterizing peripheral art as research and development is very
interesting and I see your point. I was speaking out about that minority
culture that wants the rest of us to take them seriously when it seems they
are attempting to put something over on us as significant, when it, by
established criterias established by hundreds and thousands of years of
cultural evolution lacks honest thought and artistic craftmanship. Some
artists have found their way by rejecting their contemporary culture and its
artistic standards. That can be valid if the artist honestly studies and
recognizes what has come before and then reject it. This is the way we
evolve without trudging through the muck of past mediocrities. I would
venture to say that those who participate in high art have gained
understanding and appreciation through study of artists who have come before
and those who participate in low art are ignorant of the past. If something
is created that is failed then it is imperitive for those in the know to say
so and to not attempt to place significance that is not there. Abstract
ideas is the vehicle some people use to deliver incongruous elucidations,
which creates an oxymoronic effect on those who resist compromising their
intellectuality because they are unable to make the connection between what
they are seeing and the expositions that are being put forth to describe it.
And what is even more irritating is that people who simply don't get it are
dismissed as dolts and in some cases subjected to ridicule. Humans need an
intrinsically instinctive understanding of what they are experiencing to
make a connection which can evoke an emotional response. Otherwise what you
get is confusion. Don't get me wrong, all artists should explore and evolve
to what ever degrees their energies and talents allow. I guess I reacted to
this thread based on my understanding of the lowest common denominator. If
I have insulted please accept my apologies. From Piccasso, Pilobolus,
Kubrik and beyond! By all means, keep striving to do something new! But
artists should not lose objectivity about themselves and their work.
Patrons should be more discerning about what they are looking at. In order
for art to communicate credibly, artists and patrons must strive for
intellectual honesty!
MG
Karol Urbański
probably was supposed to make some suspension.
Użytkownik MichaelG <garri...@earthlink.net> w wiadomooci do grup
dyskusyjnych napisał:002c01c0103f$61d97840$9ba21e26@michael...
Anthony
I wrote:
> Perhaps what does irk me a little is that the precious televised coverage of dance,
> such as the Summer Dance season we're being treated to here on BBC2, seems heavily
> biased towards modern forms.
Thankfully the BBC brought us Kudelka's Four Seasons tonight. More please!
It was performed specially for recording, so they couldn't resist adding a few odd
effects. But otherwise the camera-work translated the dance efficiently on to the more
confined space of the TV screen - and they remembered to capture the dancers' faces
from time to time (one of the rare advantages of seeing dance though a camera - the
zoom lens!)
The choreography and dancing was just what I like in my old-fashioned way - lively,
expressive, lyrical.... but most importantly, the dancers danced hand-in-hand with
Vivaldi. I love to see that close relationship between the score (sometimes even
individual instruments), and the dancers - almost as if the music itself has come to
life and started dancing on the stage! While the steps and phrases seemed largely very
classical, the piece was fresh and energetic. A wonderful visualization of Vivaldi's
score (which I think is no mean feat in itself), richly realised by Rex Harrington and
the NBC. Good show.
Anthony
> ...what I'd add is the caveat
> that "Modern Dance" is a *very* large animal ranging from formalists like
> Merce Cunningham to minimalists like Yvonne Rainier to post-modern
> choreographers like David Gordon.
Certainly - I wouldn't want to insult modern dance by lumping all the
different movements & ideas together.
> In America, two "moderns" most ballet oriented people tend to find
> accessible are Paul Taylor (and less so, but also) Merce
> Cunningham.
Mmmmm..... I'm afraid I'm not wild about Merce....
> ... warning: for
> people for whom ballet is all about music, he's rough going.
... and that's why.
> Try the
> video of "Points in Space" - which is rechoreographed specifically for
> camera and has a rather pretty "soundscape" by John Cage. It's a good
> place to start with Cunningham.
OK, I'll make a note of that; but I suspect I may be a particularly
recalcitrant customer. For me, ballet really does start with the music, and
the music's got to be good. Here I can't resist sticking my neck out and
saying - I do think John Cage's 'music' is utter.... well, maybe I'd better
not. (I feel I've listened to enough music over the years to say what I think
about Cage, as 'music' anyway; but I want to be careful about transferring
that condemnation to the dance which it accompanies, as I'm a relative
newcomer.)
> You'll find things to like in modern dance for their similarity to ballet,
> and also things to like because modern does them better than ballet does
> (like weight and gravity.)
I have to admit I often find some of the movements _really_ ugly: jerky,
uncontrolled. And so often it looks like the dancers are trying to express
pain and a sense of being trapped (maybe they are) - but I just don't enjoy
that. (e.g. body hunched/curled, legs twisted & hands held rigidly in front of
the hips, pointing forward. Is that a beautiful sight? Not to me.)
> The only misconceptions I'd like to skewer
> before you even hear them are:
>
> (From the modern camp) People interested in ballet have simply not evolved
> enough to appreciate modern yet.
That makes me feel better - I was becoming paranoid that maybe that applies to
me....
> (From the ballet camp) Modern dancers are just dancers whose bodies were
> not good enough to do ballet, or ballet dancers who wanted something
> easier to do.
> You may hear either one of those two. They're both ridiculous.
>
Quite so - thanks Leigh!
Anthony.
Anthony
> I do understand there is a very small minority of intellectuals, pseudo and
> otherwise, who seek out the avant-garde.
What puzzles me is how high-profile it seems, though. Maybe I've just got a
distorted image, but to me it looks like some of these pieces I think your
referring to really do draw large audiences. Are they all just admiring the
Emperor's new clothes?
> Perhaps for these people life
> itself is a distraction and they are simply bored by it all so
I know what you mean - I'm a simple techie by day, and I hammer my brains trying
to solve puzzles at work; so when I'm escaping and unwinding I like something
that I can enjoy without having to think too hard about it.
> they try to
> assign meaning to the meaningless, like pontificating over a blank canvas or
> a urinal hanging on the wall. I see it as intellectual masturbation
Ha ha ha! Wonderful expression. Can I borrow it for my next literary review?
> If there are people who
> would pay an ungodly sum for a blank canvas then I say somebody make them
> pay!
Well, would a blue canvas do? It's not completely blank (I think it's got
'Klein' written on it somewhere... and 'Sucker!' on the other side.) But it's
going for $20,000 or so.
A.
Anthony
> X-47938-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
> The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
> performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and very
> simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
>
> "Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
That's so offbeat and tasteless, I could have written it! Now I'm jealous.
Can we borrow that gimmick to persuade more people to take an interest in
current politics? "Two MP's Die - What better reason to vote? Just put a cross
in a box, and we'll put them in a box with a cross."
A.
Leigh Witchel
the late 80s or early 90s when they did a lot of Cranko's Romeo. It was
a quote from one of the stagehands. "Why doesn't she just stab herself
now? Then we could all go to the movies. . ."
LAW
In article <39A98951...@yahoo.co.uk>,
Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba
Leigh Witchel wrote:
> X-47943-Poster: d...@panix.com (Leigh Witchel)
> [SNIP]
> In America, two "moderns" most ballet oriented.....................
[SNIP]
Wait: IN America........... or rather in the United States...... In Mexico,
North America., things are a bit different - I wish I had any talent as a
dance critic, but I don't, that is why I don't post about what happens down
here. I wish that someone in Dance Magazine, for example, could review more
dance from their neighboring country, (was glad to see at least that Jazz
Convention review). But considering all the contemporary groups in our
country, considering all that performance art that bek was talking about that
occurs and so on and on, I wonder about their correspondent in our
country..... who lives in a smaller city where "almost" nothing occurs. It
would be interesting to see all the trends and influences from one country to
another........
Anyway, I agree with your post, Leigh, and do enjoy your articles very much,
and it is interesting to read about Anthony's views as general audience.
Regards.
r.
>
> Leigh Witchel - d...@panix.com http://members.aol.com/lwitchel
> New York City Ballet Principal Peter Boal performs with Dance as Ever on
> September 28-October 1, 2000. For more information, visit
> http://members.aol.com/dnceasever
--
ROCIO CECILIA BARRAZA RIVACOBA roci...@iserve.net.mx
DANZA DANCE DANSE DANS TANZ
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1854/
SOCIEDAD MEXICANA DE COREOGRAFOS SOMEC
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1854/coreografos_somec.html
DANCE BALLET MAILING LIST MEMBER BIOS
http://members.tripod.com/~cecilia/biosindx.html
Leigh Witchel
Can I apologize for my chauvinism first? In the US, we forget that our
referral to ourselves as America excludes two other nations. Please
forgive my slip up.
I understand feeling a discomfort writing critically about
performances. Please at least report on them here (I've noticed you've
made an effort to do so often.) What I've learned about dance and dance
training in Mexico I've learned from your posts to AAB. The same thing is
so with Estelle in France, and others as well. I hope I can offer the
same views from New York. And if people prefer sites on the web rather
than USENET (things seem to be moving that way. I think people prefer
moderated sites because of the SPAM.) there are several including Ballet
Alert, Criticaldance, Voice of Dance, Danceart, etc. . .Each one has a
different slant, viewpoint and constituency, pick the one that suits your
interests best.
In any case, who are some of the leading choreographers in Mexico, either
ballet or modern?
All the best!
LAW
In article <39A9E130...@iserve.net.mx>,
--
bek
Boy........do they need a new ad agency or what?
really do send them a wazzup.......that is gross, disgusting, and totally
uncalled for.!!
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: MichaelG <garri...@earthlink.net>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 9:56 AM
Subject: a curious ad
> X-47938-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
> While I am on a roll...........
>
> The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
> performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and very
> simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
>
> "Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
>
bek
OH>>>>>>>>wow.
Michael, I couldn't have said it better, if I was feeling nasty and well at
the same time.
Thank you
Living life is certainly enough reality for me.
I go for escape, and want to spend 60.00 to see something I enjoy.
Now, when I was in NYU and a student, and a psedeuintellectual (ps, no spell
checker on this,,,,,,,so take my spelling mistakes, and accept them, I never
did get more than a C in english)
I would go for all that "what does it mean, why is the canvas white.....oh
no, could it be blank.......could it mean that life is a blank??HUM what can
we talk about while stoned, and figure out the meaning of a blank white
canvas.
Oh there is one with a blue line...............wow, that must mean...etc
etc.
Sorry, at 54, I am WAY ...SOOOO WAY past all that garabage.
Very much like Carrie in "sex in the City" said to "BIG" .."we are so over,
we need a new word for so over"
If that makes me appear to be closed minded, fine, judge me.
Thank you Michael for saying the things I would have liked to say.
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: MichaelG <garri...@earthlink.net>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Steptext
> X-47937-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
> With all due respect, when most people go out to see dance, musical
> theatre, movies or whatever the last thing they want to do is sit there
and
> attempt to intellectualize about what they just saw while at the same time
> attempt to see, absorb and then figure out what they are currently looking
> at. They exist and WORK to survive all week long in the real world and
what
> they want is a distraction. They do not want to WORK at being
entertained.
> I do understand there is a very small minority of intellectuals, pseudo
and
> otherwise, who seek out the avant-garde. Perhaps for these people life
> itself is a distraction and they are simply bored by it all so they try to
> assign meaning to the meaningless, like pontificating over a blank canvas
or
> a urinal hanging on the wall. I see it as intellectual masturbation which
> has its merits, if any, in the momentary satisfaction of the members of
> trendy cliques who choose to participate. There seems to be plenty of
> artists willing to court these types of patrons. And there is nothing
wrong
> with that. Many of these potential patrons have money and influence and
can
> provide a certain amount of attention and success for an artist and I do
not
> blame them for exploiting these opportunities. If there are people who
> would pay an ungodly sum for a blank canvas then I say somebody make them
> pay! If somebody could get a hundred people to pay $20.00 each to see
some
> guy on stage sitting naked in a chair while posing as Rodin's "The
Thinker",
> Then by all means go for it! People absolutely have the right to do what
> they want.......until they decide they have some right for the government
to
> confiscated money from others to pay for it.
>
> MG
>
>
>
>
>
>
bek
God, I love the insulated attitudes that come from the folks who live in the
"city"
Right there is only one city..........NYC.
The rest of the country be damned.
Try making a living on HIGH art.
You said yourself, in your letters to us who are supporting your concerts,
that you can't make the ends meet........
How do you expect to have large scale ballet companies with 30,000.00 just
their pointe shoe budgets make ends meet with reps. that are "high art"
Certainly not out side of NYC>
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: Leigh Witchel <d...@panix.com>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: Steptext
> X-47944-Poster: d...@panix.com (Leigh Witchel)
>
>
> Michael:
>
> There's high art and low art out there. Lumping all high art into an
> ivory tower and labelling it as "Things I don't Understand and Like Even
> Less" is the worst thing you can do for artists and the culture in
> general. The middle needs the periphery to enrich itself; art needs those
> who work on the edges in "Research and Development", the thoughts that
> come out of that wind up on VH1 one day. At the same time artists should
> not isolate themselves from culture either, but to assume that art's
> primary purpose is to entertain I think is wrong. Its primary purpose is
> to communicate, and there is a significant difference.
>
> LAW
bek
How about using that with Gore and Bush,
That might make the US public sit up and wonder.
Who will be left on the island and get the 1 million.
Gore or Bush,
Or should we just skip past these two clowns and have the VP's take over?
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony <antho...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: a curious ad
> X-47950-Poster: Anthony <antho...@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> MichaelG wrote:
>
> > X-47938-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
> > The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
> > performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and very
> > simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
> >
> > "Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
>
bek
Thanks for the info..
I have seen some of Forysth's works.
Not very fond of most of them.
I really love modern dance,when it is interesting, visual and speaks to my
mind, soul, artistic visual composition........but the Steptext sounds like
a piece where the choreographer, decided to have a great Laugh on the
audience at the expense of them.
These types of "ballets" do not open one's horizons, it closes them.
Esp. for the public who is really trying to understand what is beautiful
about dance.
Maybe we do need to be openminded, but to what point?
How much abuse should we take from choreographers who think they can pull
crap out, put it on stage, and get away with it.
Walk out on them........that's my opinion.
And the rest be damned.
If they intellectual folks here on AAB think I am being too "normal" or low
brow for their tastes.........too bad.
Most people who go to the theater want to see something that is
understandable both to their eyes and to their hearts.
It doesn't have to be beautiful......it has to have a meaning that hits
them.
Caberet, the movie had a very distrubing ending......the SS rounding up
people, and others sitting in the audience watching the Jews and Gays before
they were to cart them off to die............that is disturbing, but it hits
right into the heart.
That means something.
Stopping and starting a work for no reason, just to make the audience
scratch heads, and go........what am I missing here.......is actually LOW
BROW.
This is not intellectual, it is just bad timing.
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony <antho...@yahoo.co.uk>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 9:40 AM
Subject: Re: Steptext
> X-Original-Poster: Anthony <antho...@yahoo.co.uk>
>
> Hi Bek
>
> bek wrote:
>
> > X-47933-Poster: "bek" <cca...@home.com>
> >
> > Talk about ingnorance.
> > What exactly is 'STEP TEXT?"
>
> A piece by William Forsythe, for a woman and three men. I'm afraid I
didn't
> absorb it very well, but essentially it seemed to consist of rather
angular &
> athletic dance duets performed to chopped excerpts of Bach's D- Chaconne
> (Partita No. 2?).
>
> The most memorable features were the constant interruptions to the music;
> occasionally no more than a distressed squawk escaped from the violin.
Grrrrrr!
> It also has a(n in)famous 'beginning', whereby the dancers amble around
the
> semi-lit stage for several minutes while the house-lights are up, before
the
> majority of the audience become aware that something is happening. (In the
> televised version I saw, most of them twigged when Deborah Bull, standing
> front-of-stage, started to make intense and violent motions with her arms,
held
> squared in front of her face. A motif which reappeared elsewhere in the
> performance, as a sort of sign-language communication? Looked like she was
> coaching/partnering an invisible boxer.)
>
> > I haven't heard of this at all.
> > Most people who like ballet will perhaps like modern, but the avant
guard
> > stuff is a bit silly in my mind, and generally not dancing.
>
> An opinion I'm beginning to form, reluctantly.
>
> > There was a photo in our paper the other day of "dance group" from Japan
who
> > went to Australia and buried themselves up to their chests in the sand.
>
bek
Wow, I will have to get my dictionary out to understand this post.
Sorry, I won't back down from my agreeing that the majority of the public
will reject the so called intellectual dance.
Most of which belongs in a dumpster.
I do not think it is wrong to try to come up with new and exciting works of
dance.
And if they are in the modern vein or the balletic vein, it makes no
difference.
Art is something that must hit the public viserally.......
heart and soul.
Not something that sits on a stage, and makes the audience think, "oh I must
be a jerk cause I am not getting this piece at all."
Maybe the piece isn't worth "getting"
If a choreographer must explain or be explained in their work, they need to
be in the field of books and articles...........dance is visual.
It is not really something that should have to be torn apart bit by bit to
try to Understand why the choreographer did some specific movement.
The movement should speak to the viewers.
It is a visual art.
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: MichaelG <garri...@earthlink.net>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Leigh Witchel
my goal is only not to add too much more to to my own personal debt for
making it!
I really don't think my attitude towards art is due to parochialism, I've
lived in many other cities in the country, and I know the difference
between the concerns of a choreographer driven company and a municipal
one. I admit, those differences are what makes me happy at this point in
my life that I'm doing my own thing, not trying to convince a municipality
that it likes ballet.
I've regarded myself most of my dance career as someone whose fought to
bring people to the ballet, but I've got to do it by bringing them what I
consider ballet, (Balanchine, Tudor, Robbins as much of the best of what's
available as I can convince people to see) rather than offering them
ballet for people who'd rather see a musical (Dracula, Princess and the
Pea, you name it.) This may sound crazy, but if a town wants a ballet
company it ought to have a ballet company. If what it really wants is a
musical theater, maybe it ought to just have that. Not every city needs a
ballet company.
Before this gets misconstrued, I'm *not* saying Ballet West isn't a ballet
company, or that SLC has no taste (Ballet West has traditionally been a
strong company in a strong arts town) Nor am I saying that you should
watch Pina Bausch and love it because it's good for you. I'm not
particularly fond of pretention in art either! What I am saying is that
most artists that are doing avant-garde work *know* they are working on
the margins and do it anyway because they feel they have something
important to say. And again, the center is richer for a healthy edge.
Sure there are a few that end up on the University Theater circuit. Yeah,
I find them incomprehensible for the most part, too. I more blame
presenters for presenting them than the artists themselves, but that's
just me. But I still don't believe art's primary purpose is to
entertain. (Note that's different than saying art ought *not* to
entertain!) I believe the primary purpose of art and an artist
is to communicate. If I want entertaiment I'll see Beauty and The
Beast. If I want art, I'm going to see the Four Temperaments.
LAW
(not entirely true. I find 4T's vastly entertaining, but you get my
drift. But seriously, if Lincoln Kirstein hadn't plonked down most of his
fortune into American Ballet Caravan and Ballet Society, we wouldn't have
Concerto Barocco, or Four Temperaments, or Ballet Imperial. . .He did it
knowing it wasn't going to break even either. Balanchine made money
making entertainment! I'm kinda glad he didn't decide he could make a
better living on Broadway or in Hollywood making more people happy by
doing what they wanted to see instead of following his vision, which
was quite avant-garde for that time. Is that "isolated big city
attitude" really such a bad thing?)
In article <003101c010a9$06e40c60$0a01...@saltlk1.ut.home.com>,
bek
Rocio.
One wonders why Dance Magazine reviews who they actually do review.
It is not just from the US. A lot of the companies in the US NEVER get a
review.
I can't remember the last time Ballet West had any kind of review, and one
that would be non biased...ie: from someone outside of a person who is the
critic in one of our papers.........
Your country is not the only one left out in the cold, so to speak.
How about Canada?
How about what is going on in Puerto Rico? Hawaii, Alaska???
So many places.......so little coverage.
And that is all part of the USA.........
The magazine, seems to favor certain companies, and will ONLY allow those
companies to have space in their magazine.
I am quite fed up with the whole thing also.
We had a very special award given to Mr. W. Christensen, founder of SFB,
Ballet West, and the first person to do the full length Nutcracker in the
US, if not in the america's/////////(so all you Nutty haters, blame Mr. C,
not Mr. B)
He was the first, he also was the first to have a Ballet Dept that was
separate from the sports depts. or the modern depts......
NOW do we, here get coverage? no
Even tho Mr. Philps from Dance Mag. came and gave a welcoming and
congratulartory speech, do we (slc) get any coverage.........no so far.
Talk about NYC short views.........Mr. Philps figured we in the boonies
would not know the difference between the three Christensen brothers.
His whole speech was based on that fact. He had to change in mid speech when
he was totally befuddled that these pions in SLC, actually KNEW their dance
History. OH MY OH MY.
What a blinded, short sighted view on what is outside of NY.
And I think many of you who post to this NG are of the same opinions.
There is no place that exists except NYC.
Get your nose out of your city............
There are more dance groups, more culture, more excellent artists, theater
groups, opera companies, and (rocio) cultural diversity dance groups all
through out this large area called USA, as well as other
countries.......Mexico, Cuba, Canada, etc etc.etc.
Why must everything in the general vocabulary of this NG refer to NYC?
Culture does not end at the Hudson River.
Nor the Rio Grande, or the Great Lakes, or the Rockies.
Get out, and learn.
Read beyond the Arts section in the NY times.
They are just as closed minded as Dance Mag.
Did any of you know that there is a horrid problem in SF?
That the dance studios are closing due to horrendous rents?
Do any of you have any idea as to how many dance groups little ol Salt Lake
City has?
(professional BTW)
What about Symphony........Opera?
Theater?
Art Galleries,
Choral Groups?
We have two professional Ballet companies.
three + professional modern/dance companies
Two symphonies
Two Opera companies.
God only knows how many choral groups........at least 4 or more
We have two fully functional and wonderful professional theaters.
Plus four + smaller theaters for dance and theater which seat 200-600/
We have 4+ professional theater groups.
We have the Shakespeare festival which just got a Tony for the finest
regional professional theater.
This is in a state with less than 3 million.
In a city about 300,000.-500,000 people (approx.
Wake up.........we are not the only small city with statistics like this.
Look at Florida.
Do you think the only thing down there is MCB???
Think again.
And the cultural diversity of the area would make it rich in ethnic dance
groups also.
It is time for Dance Mag. and NY to wake up and see that so much is going on
in this country as well as other countries.
bek
HOW long does it take for a magazine to put in reviews..........why should
it take 6 months?
That is stupid.
If you guys from Dance Mag are lurking........I hope you are listening.
It is time you stopped playing favorites........
It is time that reviews or articles were not just for Boston, NYCB, ABT, SFB
(which doesn't get that many) Houston, and those special favorities you love
so much.
Spread out............do something important, cover dance without bias.
Include other countries, and other companies.
Get critics who are not locked into their newspapers in the cities. Get
people who can give honest reviews.........
So Rocio, don't feel badly that your country isn't getting any attention.
Damn Cuba gets more than some places in the USA.
You have every right to be angry.........I am, and I live here in the good
ol US of A.
What about you Canadians on this forum?
Anyway.......
Anthony
bek wrote:
> X-47957-Poster: "bek" <cca...@home.com>
>
> How about using that with Gore and Bush,
> That might make the US public sit up and wonder.
Should increase the turnout at the polls, anyway.
A.
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
d...@panix.com (Leigh Witchel) wrote:
> What I am saying is
that
> most artists that are doing avant-garde work *know* they are working
on
> the margins
In some cases, yes.
Some of them, however, merely *think* they're working on the margins; a
high percentage of the pretension in dance is found among those who
want to be perceived as being cutting edge.
--
-------------
Jeffrey E. Salzberg, Lighting Designer
Portfolio: http://www.suncoast.quik.com/salzberg
(Now featuring "This Day in Arts History")
Currently in Sarasota, FL, where any
place worth driving to is worth driving
to ve-e-e-e-ry slowly.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
MichaelG
> >MichaelG wrote:
> >> The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
> >> performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and very
> >> simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
> >>
> >> "Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
LAW replied
> Actually, it reminds me of a Tshirt the Joffrey dancers wore as a lark in
> the late 80s or early 90s when they did a lot of Cranko's Romeo. It was
> a quote from one of the stagehands. "Why doesn't she just stab herself
> now? Then we could all go to the movies. . ."
MG replied
I suppose it was done with tongue firmly planted in cheek but I'm afraid it
missed the mark.
MG
:
> >
> >That's so offbeat and tasteless, I could have written it! Now I'm
jealous.
> >
> >Can we borrow that gimmick to persuade more people to take an interest in
> >current politics? "Two MP's Die - What better reason to vote? Just put a
cross
> >in a box, and we'll put them in a box with a cross."
LAW
OOOHH that's cold !
MG
MichaelG
Karol replied:
> Romeo and Juliet, main protagonists, die at the and of ballet. The ad
> probably was supposed to make some suspension.
MG replied
Yes I think we all know the main characters die but ..........could
be.....IIIII don't know!
MG
> > While I am on a roll...........
> >
> > The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
> > performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and very
> > simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
> >
> > "Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
> >
Greg Shenaut
> Rocio.
> One wonders why Dance Magazine reviews who they actually do review.
> It is not just from the US. A lot of the companies in the US NEVER get a
> review.
I may be wrong, but I think that Dance Magazine must depend on
local writers to submit reviews to them. It would be expensive to
say the least for there to be enough reviewers on staff to cover
all angloamerica, so I imagine that freelance reviews of regional
performances would be required for us to hear about them with any
regularity.
Greg Shenaut
MichaelG
In my effort to format this thread I credited LAW with the put them in a box
statement . It was actually Anthony.
SBT
MG
----- Original Message -----
From: MichaelG <garri...@earthlink.net>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: a curious ad
> X-47967-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
> > >MichaelG wrote:
>
> > >> The Atlanta Ballet ran and ad in our local paper for their upcoming
> > >> performance of Romeo and Juliette. The ad was a black square and
very
> > >> simply in the middle of the square in white text read:
> > >>
> > >> "Two Ballet Dancers Die - What Better Reason To Attend ?"
>
Greg Shenaut
> Michael:
> There's high art and low art out there. Lumping all high art into an
> ivory tower and labelling it as "Things I don't Understand and Like Even
> Less" is the worst thing you can do for artists and the culture in
> general. The middle needs the periphery to enrich itself; art needs those
> who work on the edges in "Research and Development", the thoughts that
> come out of that wind up on VH1 one day. At the same time artists should
> not isolate themselves from culture either, but to assume that art's
> primary purpose is to entertain I think is wrong. Its primary purpose is
> to communicate, and there is a significant difference.
Well, that's a strong statement. I see *language* as being the
expressive medium with the primary function of communication, and I
believe that the primary function of art is in fact to entertain.
Clearly there is a substantial overlap, in part because communication
can be entertaining, but to say the the primary purpose of art is
to communicate may apply to Egyptian hieroglyphics, but not to much
other art, IMHO.
To me, a more accurate statement might be that in some of the most
sublime (and entertaining) art, the artist also fulfills the purpose
of communication.
Greg Shenaut
MichaelG
> MichaelG wrote:
>
> > I do understand there is a very small minority of intellectuals, pseudo
and
> > otherwise, who seek out the avant-garde.
Anthony replied
> What puzzles me is how high-profile it seems, though. Maybe I've just got
a
> distorted image, but to me it looks like some of these pieces I think your
> referring to really do draw large audiences. Are they all just admiring
the
> Emperor's new clothes?
MG Replies
I think they are people who want to show how smart they want their friends
to think they are. Abstractions based on abstractions equals empty suits,
regardless of how fancy the rhetoric. Perhaps some people want something to
talk about while saying nothing at all. No emotional attachments means they
can play it safe. I mean in today's polite society and in this politically
correct environment it is taboo to be controversial or passionate about
anything so as to not be offensive, or you could be ostracized from the
group.
MG wrote:
> > Perhaps for these people life
> > itself is a distraction and they are simply bored by it all so
Anthony replied:
> I know what you mean - I'm a simple techie by day, and I hammer my brains
trying
> to solve puzzles at work; so when I'm escaping and unwinding I like
something
> that I can enjoy without having to think too hard about it.
MG replied:
Yes exactly. Last night I rented "The Green Mile." I was challenged
intellectually (regarding the death penalty) even though they didn't overtly
hit me over the head with the issue. It was woven into the story. I was
effected emotionally (with fine compelling performances and a riveting
story). I was thoroughly entranced for three solid hours and wept as I
haven't wept since "Old Yeller". I was challenged and "entertained" by
artists who knew their craft. It was itelligent without being itellectual.
It was a fantasy which managed to evoke responses to real world issues.
This is the level of art, I think "most" people respond to.
MG wrote:
they try to
assign meaning to the meaningless, like pontificating over a blank canvas or
> > a urinal hanging on the wall. I see it as intellectual masturbation
Anthony asked:
> Ha ha ha! Wonderful expression. Can I borrow it for my next literary
review?
MG replies:
Absolutely!
MG wrote:
> > If there are people who
> > would pay an ungodly sum for a blank canvas then I say somebody make
them
> > pay!
Anthony replied:
> Well, would a blue canvas do? It's not completely blank (I think it's got
> 'Klein' written on it somewhere... and 'Sucker!' on the other side.) But
it's
> going for $20,000 or so.
MG replies:
There you have it! P.T. Barnum said it well ! "There is one born every
minute."
MG
Bang2B
>uncontrolled. And so often it looks like the dancers are trying to express
>pain and a sense of being trapped (maybe they are) - but I just don't enjoy
>that. (e.g. body hunched/curled, legs twisted & hands held rigidly in front
>of
>the hips, pointing forward. Is that a beautiful sight? Not to me.)
That doesn't sound much like Cunningham to me and I see Cunningham pretty
often. I sometimes find hunching, curling, twisting and pointing quite
beautiful indeed. I certainly think loss of control is a fascinating thing to
see on stage whether illusory or actual. I don't equate pretty with beautiful.
You might want to try Cunningham again.
David
Bang2B
>they want.......until they decide they have some right for the government to
>confiscated money from others to pay for it.
>
Most of the dance that receives some amount of federal money from the very
small endowment is really quite accomplished work. Creating a small endowment
for the arts out of public money is not what I call "confiscation".
Experiments and research in art, when conducted by accomplished and promising
artists need support and a modest state endowment is a good hedge against
purely commercial or partisan demands. It is an investment well worth making.
Mark Morris, Paul Taylor and Merce Cunningham all receive some state
and federal moneys and none of them have made a nude man imitate Rodin in my
memory. I might like it if any of them did.
David
Bang2B
Tharp, Morris, DV8, Forsythe, Kylian, Ek, Graham and many others is their
refusal to recognise any tidy boundaries between high and low art. There is
good and bad dance. Lots of experimental dance is extremely entertaining lots
of "entertainment" dance is not.
David
antho...@my-deja.com
ban...@aol.com (Bang2B) wrote:
> > have to admit I often find some of the movements _really_ ugly:
jerky,
> >uncontrolled. And so often it looks like the dancers are trying to
express
> >pain and a sense of being trapped (maybe they are) - but I just don't
enjoy
> >that. (e.g. body hunched/curled, legs twisted & hands held rigidly in
front
> >of
> >the hips, pointing forward. Is that a beautiful sight? Not to me.)
>
> That doesn't sound much like Cunningham to me and I see Cunningham
pretty
> often.
No, I don't think I had Cunningham in mind in particular there;
>I sometimes find hunching, curling, twisting and pointing
quite
> beautiful indeed.
I'm interested you say that - if it's not an impossible question, why?
Pointing, yes - lengthening the lines of the body and so on. Movements
that look free and physically satisfying for the performer (even if
they're not), I enjoy. Even seeing someone doing that stereotypical
'morning stretch' of the shoulders and arms is nice to watch - it makes
me feel better too. I suppose in the same way seeing someone yawn always
makes you yawn. But seeing someone looking uncomfortable and
distorted is often painful to watch.
> I certainly think loss of control is a fascinating
thing to
> see on stage whether illusory or actual. I don't equate pretty with
beautiful.
For me, pretty belongs with beautiful, but fascinating belongs with
interesting - a more academic/intellectual sentiment.
> You might want to try Cunningham again.
Sure - I don't want to be too quick to condemn; some of his work looks
quite interesting, and visually intriguing; but I use 'interesting'
there in the way I describe above.
Anthony
antho...@my-deja.com
"MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> X-47969-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
> In my effort to format this thread I credited LAW with the put them in
a box
> statement . It was actually Anthony.
Guilty as charged. Anyway, Leigh wouldn't write something nasty like
that. (At least I didn't name the MP's I had in mind....)
Anthony
> And again, the center is richer for a healthy edge.
But it seems to me that often the edge attracts much more attention than
the centre, to the detriment of the whole.
You see, what worries me is that the mass media love nothing more than a
good story about wacky artists wasting time and money producing what
they percieve to be junk; the Turner prize has become a joke now.
They know the story will sell, because a substantial proportion of their
readers are prejudiced, and they want to believe that everything of
which they're ignorant really is just garbage - not worth knowing about.
People love to be told what they want to hear, and what they want to
hear is that they're not the stupid ones for failing to see why an
unmade bed is art.
I'm worried because it seems we are feeding the media with just what
they want - reinforcing stereotypes, not tearing them down as we should
be. To focus so much attention on the periphery is dangerous.
Other than the obvious 'soft-target' value to critical media, why does
the edge of art attract so much more attention these days? Is it because
the artistic 'cognoscenti' lead them there? Or is it because there is
precious little growing in the centre to look at now?
> But I still don't believe art's primary purpose is to
> entertain.
Maybe not from the artist's point of view; but all the art that has
become successful and popular must have entertained enough people to
achieve its status somewhere along the line.
Perhaps the art itself does just communicate - but then it's the
artist's emotion instilled in the art that is doing the 'entertaining'
(if you can call being moved to tears 'entertainment'.) Anyway, I'm
splitting hairs & wasting bandwidth.
Leigh / David / others - please don't take any of what I'm saying as an
attack or criticism in any way (and I hope the same goes for other
people's contributions). I've raised this contentious issue because it
fascinates me and concerns me at the same time; and I'm grateful for
responses such as yours. It's refreshing to talk to people who are
willing to stand their corner and debate, rather than just brush me off
as an ignorant.
LWindreich
world who are responsible for contributing reviews of events and performances
in their communities.
But page space remains limited, so perhaps no more than a dozen reports are
used in each issue.
Someone at DM has to make the decision as to what to include. It must be a
daunting task.
Getting a review in DM is often a great perk for a small company relying on
good press for grant applications and subsidies. What a shame that so many are
never covered!
MichaelG
David,
I appreciate your point of view, however I do have philosophical
reservations about "taxpayer money" not "federal money," which IS
confiscated by virtue of the fact that if we do not pay taxes we go to jail
at gunpoint and if we resist we can be shot. Why should folks in Podunk
Idaho be forced to fund artists' endeavors such as Morris, Taylor,
Cunningham or anyone else? Especially when they would probably never have
the opportunity to see these peoples' work and maybe wouldn't want to if
they could. Thes artists are primarily working in New York City and may even
scoff at the idea of going to, what the elites refer to, as flyover country
to perform. I know Paul Taylor and others do tour, but frankly they could
never reach all who can't be exposed, but are still being rquired pay. No
one should expect one penny of someone elses money for their livelyhood. I
am reasonably sure that I am in the minority on this list about this, but as
a libertarian (gasp!) I can't reconcile this. I think it would be a very
good idea to put a box to be checked on tax forms so people can donate to
the NEA or the Endowment for the Humanities the way they do for presidential
candidate donations. That is to make it voluntary. I am sure out of 200
million taxpayers they could get enough funds to go around and may even get
more than they are getting now. For me that would be the fair way to go
about it. Besides it is not like there wasn't art before the NEA. Those in
Hollywood and working on Broadway do not receive taxpayer money, they must
finance their own projects, as it should be.
Respectfully
MG
Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba
bek wrote:
> X-47960-Poster: "bek" <cca...@home.com>
>
> Rocio.
> One wonders why Dance Magazine reviews who they actually do review.
> It is not just from the US. A lot of the companies in the US NEVER get a
> review.
[snip]
:) Bek, Im not exactly worked up or fed up by the whole thing about coverage,
here it is something that also happens, in fact, I have a note at my forum and
news page that only those events that are announced in a timely fashion will be
included, most of the time I learn about them when I get invited to go the very
same day of the performance..... and then very few times do newspapers publish
reviews.... there are less than 10 dance magazines in the whole country, and so
on. So I see your point. Let me tell you that having been both in SLC and NY and
having enjoyed the cultural life (and otherwise) of both, I do agree that a lot
is happening in "regional USA" - and I also see the trend that because many
people think that NY is the bellybutton of dance in the world, many want to go
there. It happened to me, and I have enjoyed taking classes and dancing over
there very much. Valentina Perejeslavek, R. Blankshine and Evee Lynn were a
treat. But I got a scholarship to TCU Fort Worth and learned and enjoyed it very
much as well. I got to meet very talented and knowledgeable people like Li Chou
Cheng, Ellen Page, Susan Haigler, Susan Roberts, and many others. So I do say
again, there is so much going on, that I do believe that a rich country like USA
could (if someone wanted) write and publish more about all of it. It seems that
the internet is now the way to really get to know people and learn about all the
things that are being done. Anyway.
"so it goes".
Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba
Leigh Witchel wrote:
> X-47961-Poster: d...@panix.com (Leigh Witchel)
>
> Rocio:
>
> Can I apologize for my chauvinism first? In the US, we forget that our
> referral to ourselves as America excludes two other nations. Please
> forgive my slip up.
>
Sure, actually, don't worry. In school we used to learn all those songs, you know
which, and I remember that students would always challenge the american teachers
about Mexico and Canada being part of NAmerica.... old story....:) About writing,
yes, it is hard to put ideas in order and more so in a second language. Like I
said, it also takes knowledge and talent. You, Estelle, Jeannie, have it. I
don't.....
I agree about usenet vs. forums. I truly enjoy reading at Ballet Alert, it is one
of the most serious and accurate places I've found in the net. The others......
well... are ok depending on what you need.
Here is a bit of news from Mexico at your request, not precisely about
choreographers, but about the year 2000 projects funded by some organizations,
mainly the The US-Mexico Fund for Culture . Read on:
THE FUND
The US-Mexico Fund for Culture supports cultural exchange and collaboration
between Mexico and the United States. The program was created in 1991 through
a
joint initiative of Mexico's National Fund for Culture and the Arts (FONCA),
the
Bancomer Cultural Foundation and The Rockefeller Foundation. The Fund is
headquartered in Mexico City, and its purpose is to strengthen cultural
exchange
and collaboration by encouraging creative dialogue between the artistic and
cultural communities of the two countries.
The Fund grants economic support to projects of excellence that reflect the
artistic and cultural diversity of Mexico and the United States, and that enrich
cultural
exchange and promote lasting ties among artists, scholars, independent groups
and cultural institutions in both countries. Projects to be supported by the Fund
are
selected by a Binational Evaluation Committee, composed of two leading
specialists, one from Mexico and one from the United States, from each of the
disciplines encompassed by the program.
The Executive Committee of the Fund is composed of two representatives from
each of the founding institutions -Mexico's National Fund for Culture and the
Arts
(FONCA), Bancomer Cultural Foundation and The Rockefeller Foundation-,
two representatives from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Mexico, and two
representatives from the Cultural Section of the Embassy of the United States
in Mexico .
Jorge Domínguez Cerda
Tijuana, Baja California
TROLLEY DANCES
Creation of new work by choreographers Jorge Dominguez and Jean Isaacs to
be performed by Jorge Dominguez Dance Company at the Trolley Dances program
of San Diego Dance Theatre, at CECUT’s Muestra Internacional de Danza, and at the
Festival de Danza Mexicana of the Studio Theatre of San Diego State University.
Macrina Cárdenas
Diocese of Rochester
Brockport, New York
IN SEARCH OF THE ROOTS THROUGH THEATER AND DANCE
Collaboration between the Hispanic Migrant Ministry of the Diocese of
Rochester
and the group Luz y Fuerza from Mexico City, with the support of the State
University of New York (SUNY Brockport), to provide professional instruction
and training on dance and theater to members of “El Corazón Mexicano”, a
group of young male and female Mexican migrants.
National Association of Latino Arts and Culture (NALAC)
Pedro A. Rodríguez
San Antonio, Texas
THE MEXICO-US BINATIONAL PRESENTERS NETWORK
Support towards planning stage for the creation of a binational network of
presenters from Mexico and the United States, as a means of promoting
cultural
exchange between artists, arts organizations and presenters from both
countries.
Mary Luft
Miami, Florida
FLA / BRA & Guests
Support towards research trip of members of Tigertail Productions, of Miami,
Florida to meet with artists, cultural organizations and other support groups
in
dance in Mexico. The objective is to begin an international dance exchange
project. A small group, or soloists and a dance writer from Mexico will be
invited
to Miami to perform and participate in the 7th annual FLA/BRA & guests
Festival
in Miami in the fall of 2001.
Kim Epifano
San Francisco, California
NAKED WISHES
Support towards presentation in San Francisco of work created in
collaboration
between Epiphany Productions (San Francisco) and dancers from Paralelo 32
(Mexicali), Hildelena Vazquez, Verónica Gaytán, Elizabeth Osuna, Dalel Bacre
and Rosa Andrea Gomez. Lecture demonstration at the Mission Cultural Center
in San Francisco, to share their process and create dialogue with the
community.
Jane Hirshberg
Takoma Park, Maryland
HALLELUJAH
Second phase of collaboration program between Liz Lerman Dance Exchange
and Producciones La Manga. The partners will continue to explore, through
artistic collaboration, the applications for emerging media in relation to
professional and community based dance.
Judith Reyes Anaya-Moroyoqui
Ahome, Sinaloa
YOREMEM INDIGENOUS DANCE COMPANY
Artistic interpretations of Yoremem rituals by Yoremem Compañía Indígena,
from Ahome, Sinaloa, composed of musicians, singers and danzantes for
traditional Yoremem artists in California and Arizona. The tour will be
accompanied by a photographic exhibition of Yoremem ethnographic, artistic
and
cultural aspects.
For past funded proyects, you can visit:
http://www.fideicomisomexusa.org.mx/framproyec2.html
I will try to write more. :)
Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba
Greg Shenaut wrote:
> X-Original-Poster: Greg Shenaut <gr...@bogslab.ucdavis.edu>
>
> bek <cca...@home.com> wrote:
> > X-47960-Poster: "bek" <cca...@home.com>
>
> > Rocio.
> > One wonders why Dance Magazine reviews who they actually do review.
> > It is not just from the US. A lot of the companies in the US NEVER get a
> > review.
>
> I may be wrong, but I think that Dance Magazine must depend on
> local writers to submit reviews to them. It would be expensive to
> say the least for there to be enough reviewers on staff to cover
> all angloamerica, so I imagine that freelance reviews of regional
> performances would be required for us to hear about them with any
> regularity.
>
> Greg Shenaut
yes, but imagine, their correspondent's address for mexico that appears in the
magazine lives in Cuernavaca !!!!!!!!! geeeeeeeee ....... it makes us
wonder.....
the best thing that just happened there was us who got invited twice!!! for
a couple of performances.....not even the piece on the jazz thing was written
by the person...
having been in dance for ufff number of years, i've never heard of the person
in the dance environment either...... just a comment
r.
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
Anthony <antho...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> People love to be told what they want to hear, and what they want to
> hear is that they're not the stupid ones for failing to see why an
> unmade bed is art.
I was once asked to run sound for Tim Miller, the performance artist
who was one of the "NEA 4". I was told that at one point he would get
naked and speak to his penis, and I thought, "This is going to be
ridiculous; I am *not* going to enjoy this."
It turned out to be one of the most moving experiences I've ever spent
in a theater -- a fascinating monologue on why, in the age of AIDS,
people continue to love.
--
-------------
Jeffrey E. Salzberg, Lighting Designer
Portfolio: http://www.suncoast.quik.com/salzberg
(Now featuring "This Day in Arts History")
Currently in Sarasota, FL, where any
place worth driving to is worth driving
to ve-e-e-e-ry slowly.
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
antho...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Guilty as charged. Anyway, Leigh wouldn't write something nasty like
> that. (At least I didn't name the MP's I had in mind....)
I'll trade you two US Congressthings (of my choice) for two MPs (of
your choice).
Anthony
Jeffrey E. Salzberg <salz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <8oe68m$jb8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Anthony <antho...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> It turned out to be one of the most moving experiences I've ever spent
> in a theater -- a fascinating monologue on why, in the age of AIDS,
> people continue to love.
But it was the monologue (content) that you enjoyed - would you have
been so happy to sit and watch him just looking at his 'little man'?
A.
Anthony
> antho...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > Guilty as charged. Anyway, Leigh wouldn't write something nasty like
> > that. (At least I didn't name the MP's I had in mind....)
>
> I'll trade you two US Congressthings (of my choice) for two MPs (of
> your choice).
Done. (Do we have to worry about quarantine regulations?)
Anthony
Tr...@email.fake
Anthony <antho...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Every time I see a work like Steptext, part of me says "Hmmm, I don't
>quite understand this; it must be very clever, and maybe one day I'll
>understand what the point is, if I watch enough ballet."
People watch ballet for many different reasons, some to admire the
technical skill, some to follow the story, some to see the
athletisism, some to see the pretty ladies and handsome men, etc.
All are legitimate reasons. Ballets like Steptext are not "very
clever", they are merely a variation on the art form. It's like
painting; Edgar Degas, Salvador Dali, Jackson Pollock all splashed
a bit of paint onto canvas. Just because we are told by "experts"
their art is great, doesn't mean it is. For instance, I would not
hang a Van Gogh or Remrandt on my wall. You don't have to understand
ballet (if it does have a meaning, which is doubtful in any case),
to watch it.
>Being an 'outsider' of sorts (i.e. someone who wasn't brought up in the
>world of ballet, & therefore doesn't inherently have a camp to defend),
No one that watches ballet is an outsider.
>I occasionally see why the general public are so easily swung by critics
>of the arts.
Don't forget that critics are merely paid to publish an opinion.
Their option is no more valid (or invalid) that yours. We all know
what an "expert" is a drip under pressure!
>Or am I really just inexperienced? Will I one day like Steptext as much
>as I enjoy more traditional works?
Maybe, maybe not. Your tastes change over the years for who know what
reasons. Take me. I used to like heavy metal but now I can't stand
it, having "moved" to more punk/indie/goth music.
Trog Woolley
(A Croweater languishing in Pommie Land)
Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kali Inanna
Bang2B
onstage goes. Pretty is something that doesn't interest me.
David
Bang2B
>quite
>> beautiful indeed.
>
>I'm interested you say that - if it's not an impossible question, why?
>
Why not? Depends on what curling, twisting and hunching is going on. Movement
without those things would bore me. If someone prefers only "feel good"
movement it's like preferring a play without conflict. Like demanding that
plays be a series of characters feeling good for several scenes and then having
a nice time at the end. Rather a bore, wouldn't you think? Drama in movement
comes from conflict. In arabesque the front of the body is "opened" the back
of the body is "closed". Loss of balance is a conflict. Curving and
straightening are in conflict. Or in complex negotiation.
David
Bang2B
>reservations about "taxpayer money" not "federal money," which IS
>confiscated by virtue of the fact that if we do not pay taxes we go to jail
The collection of public money through taxes is no more confiscatory than the
paying of rent to a landlord or the payment of a toll while crossing a bridge.
>Why should folks in Podunk
>Idaho be forced to fund artists' endeavors such as Morris, Taylor,
>Cunningham or anyone else? Especially when they would probably never have
>the opportunity to see these peoples' work and maybe wouldn't want to if
>they could. Thes artists are primarily working in New York City and may even
>scoff at the idea of going to, what the elites refer to, as flyover country
>to perform. I know Paul Taylor and others do tour, but frankly they could
>never reach all who can't be exposed, but are still being rquired pay. No
>one should expect one penny of someone elses money for their livelyhood.
Sure they should, happens all the time to good effect. Funding art is "good"
for the whole culture, not just for a given audience. As with medical and
scientific research, art research needs to be funded because it strengthens and
broadens a culture through it's gradual dissemination to and influence on many
domains over time. It needs to be non voluntarily publically funded (to a
modest degree) as a hedge against purely partisan or commercial interests
which, by definition, have non-art agendae. A culture which cannot find a way
to achieve this (and there are ways) is in peril.
David
Leigh Witchel
Somewhere out there, there is an Interstate Highway. Let's say it goes
from Seattle to San Diego (that would make it I-5!) I've never driven on
it. I may never drive on it in my entire life. Some of my federal tax
dollars pay for its upkeep. And at some point *something I need or that
improved my life* travelled on that road with or without my
knowledge. Government and a country doesn't just comprise what directly
affects us. In the same way, because you didn't see an artist, doesn't
mean that your children didn't, that people who make art that you like
didn't learn from that artist or s/he wasn't their teacher. . .
This gets into politics rather than art itself, but I'm afraid America has
trouble grasping the concept of public benefit. Strike that, we're
actively hostile to it as a nation. I do think it's amusing that we think
we should have a right to pay only for the parts of a government that we
approve of. I'm not very fond of the military! Can I deduct that from my
taxes next go-round? Maybe I'll just pro-rate it according to my level of
disapproval. . .
LAW
In article <001d01c01128$99d1c740$0da21e26@michael>,
MichaelG <garri...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>X-47987-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
>
>
>David,
>
>I appreciate your point of view, however I do have philosophical
>reservations about "taxpayer money" not "federal money," which IS
>confiscated by virtue of the fact that if we do not pay taxes we go to jail
>at gunpoint and if we resist we can be shot. Why should folks in Podunk
>Idaho be forced to fund artists' endeavors such as Morris, Taylor,
>Cunningham or anyone else? Especially when they would probably never have
>the opportunity to see these peoples' work and maybe wouldn't want to if
>they could. Thes artists are primarily working in New York City and may even
>scoff at the idea of going to, what the elites refer to, as flyover country
>to perform. I know Paul Taylor and others do tour, but frankly they could
>never reach all who can't be exposed, but are still being rquired pay. No
--
Leigh Witchel - d...@panix.com http://members.aol.com/lwitchel
New York City Ballet Principal Peter Boal performs with Dance as Ever on
September 28-October 1, 2000. For more information, visit
http://members.aol.com/dnceasever
hal
New Yorker, why should my hard earned tax money be used to put out all
those wild fires in Idaho and Montana? Why should my tax money be used
to help all those families in Florida hit by hurricanes? Why should my
tax money be used to deal with all those mid-west (and NJ) floods? Why
should my tax money be used to support the idiotic prison overpopulation
created by insane drug laws? Why should my tax money be used to support
a bloated military? Why should my tax money be used for highway
construction instead of a
Second Avenue subway line? Why should my tax money be used for any of
literally millions of things I don't agree with, don't use, or are
opposed to? Because we live in one country and we have obligations
beyond are own parochial self interest. We live in a country that with
all of its abundance provides the lowest public funding to the
arts of any of the Western nations. To say nothing of the lack of funds
for
medical research, childrens healthcare, adequate housing, nutrition and
education
for everyone. So, maybe we need to change the country and put up a
thousand check
boxes on the tax return so that everyone could elect how their money is
spent. The
problem is then the rich have a much larger vote than the poor. Not what
a democracy
is supposed to be about. We need leaders who will provide a reasonable
balance of
the conflicting interests of everyone from those made homeless by
hurricanes and
forest fires, to medical research, to starving children in africa, to
Paul Taylor and the NYCB and Dance as Ever and the Metropolitan Museum
of Art as well as the Metropolitan Opera. And to people who can open up
our eyes to the problems of Aides and bigotry and whatever else ails our
world - artists, choreographers, writers, film
makers,.....
MichaelG
LAW wrote:
> Somewhere out there, there is an Interstate Highway. Let's say it goes
> from Seattle to San Diego (that would make it I-5!) I've never driven on
> it. I may never drive on it in my entire life. Some of my federal tax
> dollars pay for its upkeep. And at some point *something I need or that
> improved my life* travelled on that road with or without my
> knowledge.
Michael G replies:
Yes the Interstate highway system was built out of the need for free
movement of military transports and commerce. The same endeavor also built
1-75 and 1-85 which are major North - South corridores. I do use them
frequently. This program works and has benefitted all and therefore was a
legitimate undertaking.
LAW went on:
Government and a country doesn't just comprise what directly
> affects us. In the same way, because you didn't see an artist, doesn't
> mean that your children didn't, that people who make art that you like
> didn't learn from that artist or s/he wasn't their teacher. . .
MG replies
Do you mean, No man is an island? It doesn't matter what I have benefitted
from or what I like. Art is subjective and some art benefits and some
doesn't. As an artist I am certainly not anti-art. I am simply opposed to
some government beaureucrat having the power to decide where my money should
go without my ability to have a say in it. The Mapplethorpe controversy a
few years back is an example of the government supporting an artist's work,
with our money which was extremely offensive to many, many people who
ultimately had no voice in it. It would be fine for those people who
believe that this type of funding is beneficial to voluntarily support these
programs, however it is not resonable for me to say to you that you must
support something simply because I do. And I do not want something that
does not belong to me regardless of how strongly I believe in its benefit.
If I can't by virtue of my work convice people that it is truly of value
then I do not deserve the support. It is by this means that I can realize
the true value of it. Parents come to me with their children to train them
because I have said that I am qualified and I deem myself worthy. Parents
bring their children back to me because I have proven myself worthy. This
is my philosophy.
LAW went on
> This gets into politics rather than art itself, but I'm afraid America has
> trouble grasping the concept of public benefit.
MG replies
I believe that many people have a healthy skepticism about the Government
and its ability to effeciently administrate our most serious social issues.
Only 20 cents of every dollar taken by the government for welfare actually
reaches those who truly need it. The rest is absorbed by a bloated and
ineficient beauracracy. I do not believe that most people are adverse to
helping the poor, but they want their money to go where it is needed, not to
support a federal jobs program.
LAW,
I'm not very fond of the military! Can I deduct that from my
> taxes next go-round? Maybe I'll just pro-rate it according to my level of
> disapproval. . .
Only if you are willing to forfeit the freedoms you enjoy. Visit the
Arlington National Cemetary and stop and think about all those who served in
the military and gave their lives so we can be free to live easy lives and
to express ourselves as free men and women and artists. Now before you
condemn the "military" for their deaths understand that it wasn't
necessarily our military that caused them. I believe people like Adolf
Hitler and Emporer Hirohito and "their" militaries that caused many of them.
Most Respectfully
MG
MichaelG
David wrote:
> The collection of public money through taxes is no more confiscatory than
the
> paying of rent to a landlord or the payment of a toll while crossing a
bridge.
MG rplies
Do not pay your taxes. Wait for the IRS audit and when it comes refuse to
cooperate and continue to refuse to pay your taxes and see what happens.
This is a fact not my opinion. If you don't pay your rent you get evicted
and possibly sued but you don't go to jail. If you do not want to pay the
toll for the bridge find another way around. The old saying goes "death and
taxes" for a reason.
MG wrote:
No one should expect one penny of someone elses money for their livelyhood.
David replied:
> Sure they should, happens all the time to good effect. Funding art is
"good"
> for the whole culture, not just for a given audience. As with medical
and
> scientific research, art research needs to be funded because it
strengthens and
> broadens a culture through it's gradual dissemination to and influence on
many
> domains over time. It needs to be non voluntarily publically funded (to a
> modest degree) as a hedge against purely partisan or commercial interests
> which, by definition, have non-art agendae. A culture which cannot find a
way
> to achieve this (and there are ways) is in peril.
MG replies
This is your opinion and I respect it. However there is a way to achieve
this. It is called patronage. If an artist's work is worthy someone will
support it. Balanchine had Lincoln Kirstein long before the NEA ever came
into existance. This way it stays out of the political arena and artists
are not looked upon as arrogant mendicants who must use the government's
power of force to sustain them and their endeavors. I think putting art on a
par with aids or cancer research is a stretch. But I do see your point and
I do agree that art is essential to our souls, but I do not want government
bureaucrats deciding what is worthy and what is not.
Respectfully
MG
Anthony
hal <h...@telmar.com> wrote:
> Why should my tax money be used for any of
> literally millions of things I don't agree with, don't use, or are
> opposed to? Because we live in one country and we have obligations
> beyond are own parochial self interest.
And in the long run you benefit from a system where the handling and
administration of taxation is more made efficient by being centralised,
and therefore simplified. Administrative costs are kept to a
minimum. That's the theory, at least. Ha ha ha!
I look at it like insurance - yes I'm paying higher premiums than
perhaps I should personally, because I'm more careful than some people.
But I still want to be insured.
Unfortunately the averaging process tends to obscure the return flow of
your money; but I think it's still true that 'what goes around, comes
around', even if it becomes unrecognisable in the process.
Ideally it's up to the individuals who are in receipt of your money to
ensure that it's well spent - including publicly-funded artists. Their
integrity should prevent them from simply indulging in their own
personal intellectual ego-trips. Unfortunately, it seems it doesn't
always work that way.
But let's not argue about whether or not we should be publicly funding
artists. Instead, let's stick to arguing about what we think those
artists should be doing, and why. If indeed works in the style of
Steptext are worth taxpayer's money, then the reasons for that should
become apparent in our discussions.
I'm getting some very interesting points of view from many people, and I
feel I understand a lot more than I did when I first posted my
questions. There are still a few things I'm having trouble with; I'm
trying to avoid arriving at expressing indivisible differences of taste
as far as possible, because for me such a difference is an impasse.
But if people who enjoy works like Steptext can point out to me very
broadly what _I_ should be looking for to appreciate such works, then I
am grateful; if they can't, it suggests that perhaps there isn't
anything in them for me. So far I'm only persuaded that other people
enjoy them, because
(i) they like intellectual challenges to tax and broaden the mind (but I
get enough of those at work) and
(ii) they enjoy watching movements that I find unpleasant - a difference
of opinion/taste, so not worth pursuing.
Anthony
In article <39ab81f4...@194.42.225.245>,
Tr...@email.fake wrote:
> Just because we are told by "experts"
> their art is great, doesn't mean it is.
No - but a real expert is someone who can convince a skeptic like me
that it is.
I've often been a bit wary of Picasso: but an 'expert' took me through
Guernica - the end result was that I appreciated it. Not because it's a
nice picture to look at (it isn't, it's disturbing) but because I
finally understood what the artist was trying to relate.
However, the problem I come across with a lot of abstract dance is that
it's just that - abstract. There doesn't seem to be any story or
background to explain. So what's left? I don't like the visual impact;
it doesn't appeal to my fundamental love of closely-related music and
movement. What should I be looking for? I'm a bit cautious about
accepting that "I should see in it what I want to" because by the same
argument I might as well spend the evening looking at a blocked toilet.
And frankly, I think that's a bit of a lazy 'argument' - like saying
'well it is, because it is.'
Tr...@email.fake
>However, the problem I come across with a lot of abstract dance is that
>it's just that - abstract. There doesn't seem to be any story or
>background to explain. So what's left? I don't like the visual impact;
>it doesn't appeal to my fundamental love of closely-related music and
>movement. What should I be looking for?
Probably nothing more than you can see. Some would say that abstract
dance is just pure movement for movments sake. Others may try to look
for hidden meanings. I would say see what you want to see; if you
don't like a piece because it has no visual impact, that is fine.
I'm not a fan of modern ballet (what ever that is); for me it has to
be classical. Even so, some classical ballets are very hard to watch
(Raymonda for instance). I don't understand the story of Raymonda,
and I don't especially like the dancing either. The music seems
very disjointed and so the dancing doesn't flow.
I like it when "experts" stumble across hidden meanings. I remember
a painting by an Australian artist (can't remember who), which
featured a view of a large city, with a bush (scrub) background.
Popping out of the scrub was a large radar dish. This painting was
exhibited in the 1980's, just before glasnost. An expert vented
forth explaining how the painting clearly represented an dual assault
on the Aussie live style, one aspect being the cities taking over
the outback and the other the constant threat being posed by the
American military bases that are present in Oz. The artist when
interviewed said "Well that's what the view looked like from where I
standing when I painted it".
Anthony
Tr...@email.fake wrote:
> Even so, some classical ballets are very hard to watch
> (Raymonda for instance). I don't understand the story of Raymonda,
> and I don't especially like the dancing either.
I've not seen an awful lot of Raymonda (only excerpts - I think that's
all we get from it these days). What I have seen I actually rather liked
- ENB's Tour de Force back in the spring featured a few bits, and they
were good. (Though they did a men's Pas de Quatre to one of the more
jaunty Variations in Act III, which I couldn't help feeling looked
terribly camp - lots of entrechats etc. - very funny, though. :-) )
> The music seems
> very disjointed and so the dancing doesn't flow.
Yes, it is very disjointed in that it consists of lots of bits & pieces
(character dances, that sort of thing); but some of them are very
beautiful in their own right... (eg. the tender Pas Classique Hongrois
from Act III, or the haunting middle-Eastern Variation IV soon
afterwards.) On the whole, I think Act I works best all together, with
it's rather grand and heroic tunes.
But you're absolutely right about the flow; old Glazunov does tend to
cut between boisterous, knightly themes and gentler stuff rather too
often. I frequently listen to full-length ballet scores right through
several times in a loop when I'm running a long experiment in the lab,
and Raymonda is one of those which somehow doesn't work quite as well in
one go as it does in bits. A shame, but that probably explains why it
gets filleted so often for mixed programmes.
> .....
> The artist when
> interviewed said "Well that's what the view looked like from where I
> standing when I painted it".
I love that story - there's something wonderfully Aussie about that
reply, Trog. ;-)
Anthony
---------------------------
A Pommie languishing in Pommie Land.
MichaelG
MG replies to Hal's statement which follows:
One day, God forbid, A devastating catastrophe may strike New York City and
you folks may need the assistance from the resources made available through
Taxpayer funded relief programs. In my mind this is a legitimate function
of our government.
It is not the government's function to heal our social ills because quite
frankly it can't. Bigotry is unfortunately a product of human nature and I
think these types of human foibles is fair game for artists and all of us to
take a stand against as we speak out to try to change peoples' hearts.
Unfortunately some artists use their art to attack others and this is
divisive as it creates contention among us and actually corrodes our social
fabric. We can "push the envelope", but for what reasons? Government as
a matter of policy can't create a lasting effect. However our elected
officials can and should use their bully-pulpits to continue to speak out
and provide leadership. There are no laws that can change the way people
think.
I agree our drug laws are insane.
I agree that government waste is a major problem. That only reinforces my
point.
In my opinion your Second avenue Subway line is a local issue to be taken up
by your city, county and state, not nationally. Why should you send your
money to Washington for them to skim off the top and then send back what
they think you need to deal with your rail system? The interstate highway
system is a national endeavor and benefits all.
Actually the USA is not a democracy it is a Representative Republic which
depends on democratic principles to decide representation.
Artists should be supported, but if the means we use to achieve that
divides us, what good is it?
Take the rich out of our national equation and what do the poor or any of
the rest of us have? We are all Americans and deserve respect. Class envy
gets us nowhere!
Respectfully
MG
Hal wrote:
> I don't appreciate your point of view. What a load of nonsense. As a
> New Yorker, why should my hard earned tax money be used to put out all
> those wild fires in Idaho and Montana? Why should my tax money be used
> to help all those families in Florida hit by hurricanes? Why should my
> tax money be used to deal with all those mid-west (and NJ) floods? Why
> should my tax money be used to support the idiotic prison overpopulation
> created by insane drug laws? Why should my tax money be used to support
> a bloated military? Why should my tax money be used for highway
> construction instead of a
> Second Avenue subway line? Why should my tax money be used for any of
> literally millions of things I don't agree with, don't use, or are
> opposed to? Because we live in one country and we have obligations
MichaelG
Someone wrote: I lost the track of the thread:
> But let's not argue about whether or not we should be publicly funding
> artists. Instead, let's stick to arguing about what we think those
> artists should be doing, and why. If indeed works in the style of
> Steptext are worth taxpayer's money, then the reasons for that should
> become apparent in our discussions.
MG replies:
You see this is another demension of my philosophy. If we, as taxpayers are
not involved in funding artists' work, we have no say about what they
"should" be doing. Art is speech and we are free to say what we want. An
artist shouldn't be subjected to what he or she "should" be doing, no more
than you or I should be told what we "should" be saying. If I haven't been
involved in the process of creating a work either as a benefactor or someone
who has been taxed or as an audience member who paid good money to see it, I
can't fairly make any judgments whether it should have been created or not.
The artist is truly free from any restraints.
Athony? Wrote
>
> I'm getting some very interesting points of view from many people, and I
> feel I understand a lot more than I did when I first posted my
> questions. There are still a few things I'm having trouble with; I'm
> trying to avoid arriving at expressing indivisible differences of taste
> as far as possible, because for me such a difference is an impasse.
>
> But if people who enjoy works like Steptext can point out to me very
> broadly what _I_ should be looking for to appreciate such works, then I
> am grateful; if they can't, it suggests that perhaps there isn't
> anything in them for me. So far I'm only persuaded that other people
> enjoy them, because
> (i) they like intellectual challenges to tax and broaden the mind (but I
> get enough of those at work) and
> (ii) they enjoy watching movements that I find unpleasant - a difference
> of opinion/taste, so not worth pursuing.
MG replies:
Do not worry too much about what you should be looking for. And do not rely
too heavily on other's opinions, especially professional critics. If you,
as a patron of the arts, go to see a performance by a particular artist or
group and you like what you have experienced then you have been enriched and
are free to continue to seek out their work, keeping in mind, that some art,
perhaps, is an acquired taste and some you will reject outright and some you
will know instantly you enjoy. But we can't make judgements that an artist
should or should not make a particular statement, lest we ourselves are
subjected to the same types of judgement. Either you like it or you don't
and based on that criteria you can then choose if you want to see more.
Some people like intellectual challenges. Some simply want to be distracted
or entertained. There is something for everyone, but it does require some
trial and error which can be time consuming and possibly expensive, but what
the hell do you have anything better to do?
MG
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
ban...@aol.com (Bang2B) wrote:
> I certainly think loss of control is a fascinating
thing to
> see on stage whether illusory or actual.
I'm not sure I can agree with that (the "actual" part); loss of
control, to me, is indicative of poor technique.
One reason I prefer classic big band music to rock & roll is that when
you listen to Benny Goodman's "Sing Sing Sing" or Glenn Miller's "In
the Mood" you can hear them skirt the edges of control without ever
losing it, whereas it seems to me that rock musicians lose control
quite regularly.
--
-------------
Jeffrey E. Salzberg, Lighting Designer
Portfolio: http://www.suncoast.quik.com/salzberg
(Now featuring "This Day in Arts History")
Currently in Sarasota, FL, where any
place worth driving to is worth driving
to ve-e-e-e-ry slowly.
Anthony
>
> > But let's not argue about whether or not we should be publicly
funding
> > artists. Instead, let's stick to arguing about what we think those
> > artists should be doing, and why. If indeed works in the style of
> > Steptext are worth taxpayer's money, then the reasons for that
should
> > become apparent in our discussions.
>
> MG replies:
> artist shouldn't be subjected to what he or she "should" be doing, no
> more than you or I should be told what we "should" be saying.
Sure, I wasn't trying to say that we have the right to tell the artists
exactly what to do; they're not artists if we do that, they're
contractors. I was really asking what sort of things we would be doing
if we were the ones in receipt of public funding.
Ensuring that an artist who is funded up front remains creatively 'free'
is perhaps tricky, given that there may be undue pressure simply to
churn something out, however mediocre (though many commissioned works
have been worth every penny, a thousand times over). Maybe it would be
better to think of public funding as a national gift to an artist or
company for producing works which have been of national benefit,
provided in the hope that the artist/company will produce another?
A.
Vogel Sher
>control, to me, is indicative of poor technique.
I might be wrong, but I think the original poster was referring to going on and
off balance - ie suspension...
Sherry
hal
>
> X-48016-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
> MG replies to Hal's statement which follows:
>
> One day, God forbid, A devastating catastrophe may strike New York City and
> you folks may need the assistance from the resources made available through
> Taxpayer funded relief programs. In my mind this is a legitimate function
> of our government.
It's a legitimate function because you say so? Who determines what is
legitimate or not? This is specious. Is agricultural subsidies
legitimate?
Is defense legitimate? Is health care legitimate? Is foreign aid
legitimate?
Is aid to the r&d legitimate? Is the small business admin legitimate? Is
aid
to the arts legitimate? They are all legitimate. Who supports which
ones is the question. Who values which ones is the question. None are
more or less
deserving in a vacuum.
> It is not the government's function to heal our social ills because quite
> frankly it can't.
None sense. It can and does. You think the country would be better off
without
civil rights laws. They make an enourmous difference given time. Maybe
all is
not perfect yet but to state that government laws don't have an effect
is just plain
nonsense. They lay the foundation upon which society can change.
Without them
blacks would still have separate drinking fountains in much of the
south. And it
was only about 35 years ago that blacks were not served on the Maryland
turnpike
rest stops. You don't think those laws have had profound effects on
society!
> Bigotry is unfortunately a product of human nature and I
> think these types of human foibles is fair game for artists and all of us to
> take a stand against as we speak out to try to change peoples' hearts.
> Unfortunately some artists use their art to attack others and this is
> divisive as it creates contention among us and actually corrodes our social
> fabric. We can "push the envelope", but for what reasons?
What does that have to do with anything we are discussing?
> Government as
> a matter of policy can't create a lasting effect.
Of course it can. This is really just nonsense. What about the
desegregation of the Armed Forces? You don't think that had a lasting
effect? To say nothing of the civil rights laws and court rulings.
> However our elected officials can and should use their bully-pulpits
> to continue to speak out and provide leadership.
Agreed.
> There are no laws that can change the way people think.
Of course there are. They just take time. Without the civil rights
laws and ruling of the 50's and 60's this country would be a very
different
place. And bigotry would be far more significant than it is today.
Integration has played an enormous part in changing peoples minds and
hearts. Children learn from what they see and hear. Reducing the level
of bigoted discourse has an enormous impact over time. Just because
a law won't change the minds of some existing bigots the
effect on the next and subsequent generations is enormous.
> I agree our drug laws are insane.
> I agree that government waste is a major problem. That only reinforces my
> point.
I don't think I ever said government waste is a significant problem. Of
all of
the problems confronting this country government waste is the least of
them.
Far more important is the effect that money has on our government
institutions
and the idiots who think that by giving more tax releif to the very most
wealthy
will help this country. It will only help the very very rich.
> In my opinion your Second avenue Subway line is a local issue to be taken up
> by your city, county and state, not nationally. Why should you send your
> money to Washington for them to skim off the top and then send back what
> they think you need to deal with your rail system? The interstate highway
> system is a national endeavor and benefits all.
The railroads that have been hurt by the money pumped into the highway
system
rather than high speed rail is just as national an issue as the highway
system.
There is no conceptual difference. Just which side of the fence you sit
on.
The trucking industry, construction industry, auto manufacturers, oil
interests are
all on one side of this with lots of political money. It certainly
doesn't make
it right nor does it make it very economic. Rail is a far better way
for transporting
both people and goods. It is cheaper and better on the environment. So
don't talk about waste and skimming off the top. The money pumped into
the highway
system has had very many results most of them questionable. It is
taxpayer money
that has been spent at the expense of other things and has hurt the
cities and the
environment. The highways system is not necessarily a good thing.
> Actually the USA is not a democracy it is a Representative Republic which
> depends on democratic principles to decide representation.
Huh?
> Artists should be supported, but if the means we use to achieve that
> divides us, what good is it?
It only divides us when the far right makes divisive use of it.
> Take the rich out of our national equation and what do the poor or any of
> the rest of us have? We are all Americans and deserve respect. Class envy
> gets us nowhere!
What does that mean. It is just gibberish. I am not talking about
class envy or
disrespecting anyone. Taxation is not about class envy it is about
getting the most
money where it exists. As willie sutton when asked why he robs banks -
"it's where the
money is!" The rich is where the money is. So they get taxed more.
Anthony
want to become infamous for starting fights - I certainly hadn't
intended to. This thread's getting too serious for August, however valid
and important the views expressed.
A. (reaching for tin helmet, stick and white handkerchief....)
Kay S. Colbert
"sales guy" and found a way to fund what he wanted to do, without
ripping it out of peoples wallets.
Bang2B wrote:
>
> One of the things I admire most about Balanchine, Ashton, Cunningham, Taylor,
> Tharp, Morris, DV8, Forsythe, Kylian, Ek, Graham and many others is their
> refusal to recognise any tidy boundaries between high and low art. There is
> good and bad dance. Lots of experimental dance is extremely entertaining lots
> of "entertainment" dance is not.
> David
Floriaan Philips von Nueman
Steptext is known as an intellectual Modern-Ballet
and like You said before it was one of Your first
modern pieces. I think that You have to see other
Modern-Ballets/Performers first before You can real-
ly decide about modern (and in 3-D ofcourse, no TV).
Really, a lot of Modern-Ballets are much more en-
joyable than most Academical-Ballets (Classical).
Just an example :-) :
When Dutch companies visited Russia, Moscows Ballet
Theater were sold out weeks in advance, this wasn't
the case when there was a performance of the Bolshoi
Ballet (according to Pravda), the Russians were en-
thousiastic about the performances because suddenly
a new ballet-style was introduced never to be seen
by Russian public. One comment of the paper Pravda:
"The Russian ballet lovers are fed up with the tra-
ditional classical style and are exited about this
new style".
To clear up a misunderstanding (COOL !):
Academical-dance is the basic of all dance .
So if You like to do an audition for a modern
dance company in the Netherlands You must have
an Academical (Classic) dance education/training
of one of the main schools (8/9 years).( a lot
of Academical-techniques and pointe work are al-
so used in modern-ballets !).
Steptext was rather a shocking experience for
You but it's quite good, really ! :-).
A bit of Steptext: http://www1.tip.nl/~t868291/tijdelijk.html
Take Your StepNext.
Good-Bye, Floriaan
Amsterdam
Holland
JKocich
>Movement
>without those things would bore me.
Too much of what I've seen of modern dance seems to my eyes to consist of NO
movement (across the stage, that is) except for dancers sanding in one space,
curling, twisting, hunching, etc.
Deconstructing dance while still working within the proscenium seems a peculiar
undertaking to me. It too often feels as if the piece was designed, not
choreographed, with a camera in mind: the audience is irrelevant, or is expect
to "focus" as a camera would, and change focus from one static situation to
another static situation.
I don't see "conflict" in such works: I see a failure to treat the relationship
of live dancers to a live audience. Too many nights at the Joyce Theatre I've
felt as if I might as well be watching MTV.
Or maybe I'm just an unreconstructed old fogey. (Has anyone here yet suggested
that the current Bolshoi corps de ballet has much to learn about proper style
from a look at the Trocks?)
Julia
jko...@aol.com
john horne
Michael,
You know, that as an artist, I appreciate and respect what you and your
company have brought to the Metro Atlanta Community. But, that being said,
you must also know that much of your success was achieved (like the
accomplishments of numerous small, independent companies in every state
across the USA) because a long time ago, someone cared enough to generate
the 'seed of desire' in the community. One whose growth would only be
satisfied with the development of a visibly strong, competent &
professionally presented group of performing artists.
It is that desire, the concept that arts are not only a good and desirable
thing but that they are a required element for a complete and fulfilled
society, that prepared the way for you and so many others just like you. The
process began years before you even envisioned opening your studio and
forming your company. It was a notion that when nurtured took on almost a
life of it's own with a marvelous long term result = the ability for a
community, as fractured as the one in which you and i live, to come
together to support yet another performing company. Now the fact that the
product you sign your name to is one of deeply respected quality, and that
your persistence is only outdistanced by your tenacity goes far in the
community's eyes to further your cause. BUT the unmistakable truth is that
the *beginning* made it possible for you to be here *now*.
And that beginning - that nurtured seed of desire -was cultivated with
dollars from organizations such as NEA, FCAC, SFAF and GCA - Arts Agencies
whose purpose is to develop greater audience awareness, support new and
emerging artists, support new and quality works by established artists and
to tithe back *from* the artists a, sometimes disproportionate, payback to
the community via lectures, free performances, educational programs,
workshops, previews, festivals etc. That is where the money goes, and just
as you are reasonably confident that you are in a minority on this list
about this, I am reasonably confident that all this was already known to
you. Libertarian or not, I would expect that as a living, practicing artist
you would have a better grasp of the growing need for greater arts support,
not the opposite.
The NEA's budget is down to what 95million now? That is actually less than
3% of the national three trillion + dollar budget, -or- less than 40
cents from every person living in the USA!?!?!? Presidential Candidates, as
you mentioned, receive much, much, more to run their personal comic-operas
every four years than congress deems fit to designate in support of this
country's arts programming.
I know you probably cast this next one out for effect. But since you went
there, I will bite on it -->the issue of funding "these mostly New York
groups" as you refer to them, as unfair to the poor residents in, what did
you call it, Podunk, Idaho? Now, first of all, I don't think anyone is going
to begrudge a Morris or a Taylor or any of their dancers 36 or 37 cents. Be
suffice it to say, your suggestion that they reap no benefit if they do not
have an opportunity to participate as an audience member in a concert that
they 'paid for' (still reeling over the notion that 37 cents would or could
pay for an admission ticket) is fraught with illogic. Even if your
supposition that NY gets all the $$ was true - and it definitely is not -
how many dreams of Podunkians are nourished by magazine ( & other media)
reviews of these 'New Yorkers'. How great an influence on their appreciation
for the arts - modern, conceptual or otherwise-and their creative process
does the fact that they know these groups exist and desire to emulate the
beauty that they are able to convey?
I for one have never (unfortunately) been outside the western hemisphere,
but all the same I am more than a little awed (even at this ripe old age) by
the concept of what it must be like to live amongst the Himalayas, or to
walk the Savannahs or to swim in the Mediterranean. These I have never seen,
and probably never will never see, but the fact that they exist and that I
know they do has a profound affect on me. The fact that they are protected
by the governments that lay claim to them makes them all the more precious
to me.
I would like to think that though the process may be a bit less dramatic the
actual equation is very similar, in that when something of value exists and
its existence is known and its value appreciated even from afar, it will by
default create a positive impact on the populations who share the knowledge,
whether they ever physically come into personal contact with it or not.
If you think my choice of examples too outrageous, here's another. Most of
us have never met Rocio, nor I imagine have many of us had the pleasure of
attending any of her classes or company concerts/competitions. All the same,
our collective creative processes have been impacted by her knowledge and by
her talents, and she is in Mexico City? See, we do not have to be there to
see what she does to feel its impact! But for the record, I know that a
couple of her students were here at AB this summer and left a mark on every
student they came in contact with. Government support may not be any more
sufficient in Mexico than it is here, but regardless, it can be leveraged
throughout the community and even abroad, producing new seeds of awareness,
understanding and appreciation.
Lastly, your supposition that "Those in Hollywood and working on Broadway do
not receive taxpayer money, they must
finance their own projects, as it should be." is grossly incorrect. NEA
recipients work in most all theatres in and off Broadway. Either they are
recent or past contract recipients and the support received in their past
facilitated their growth as artists creating the synergy that is their work
today. Additionally, local and regional agencies are funded by the NEA who
then assume the role of support for their own communities. There are few
professional actors today who have not received, or worked a project that
received or learned from an instructor who had received or worked a gig spun
off from another that had received local, regional or federal funding. The
arts community is just not that large, and though it may seem like
government funds are everywhere, in truth they are scattered so broadly that
they are just enough to ensure every dancer must also wait tables &/or be a
teacher and every actor a cab driver to be able to afford three bags of
weekly groceries. But without even that little bit, the natural spinning
progression stops hard and fast. The country goes silent, and we revert to a
society that cultivating huge arms industries while devoid of color.
Michael, the hardest part of your message to understand was the fact that
for 10 years I have worked in the community you now call home to your
studio. I and a handful of others dedicated ourselves to the creation of an
understanding and appreciation for the arts amongst a burgeoning population.
Much of the work was volunteer, but some of us were paid staff of local or
county agencies. Perhaps you wish that we had better prepared the way for
your entry into the community, and I'm sure I would agree that greater
successes should have been achieved, but truth be told, we did not have the
$$ to do more. We stretched 10-13dollars out of every one we received, but
that was the best we could manage. Personally, I am thankful that we had
that County or City dollar to stretch. Without it, nothing would have been
done and you would have been forced to do it all alone, from the beginning.
Every artist is compelled to help another, who in turn is then compelled to
assist another - in this way we ensure the continuance and vitality of our
art. Disaster can befall arts groups when one of those in the 'chain'
refuses to give or to receive the assistance of another.
This is a many faceted and complicated issue, much more so than perhaps you
imagined when you sat down to type your initial reply. I cannot change your
mind. But just as the neighbor of yours who initially desired none of "that
paintin' nor dancin' for his kids when baseball and football and
cheerleading provided sufficient activities/distractions"now attends
performances (sometimes changing from his overalls and workboats first) you
too are not too old to be educated in the process.....
Regards,
johnh
http://www.dancartist.com
http://www.nationalcomputerinc.com
http://www.businessleasecentral.com
"To know how to say what others only
know how to think makes poets or sages;
and to dare to say what others only
dare to think makes martyrs or reformers
or both."
Elizabeth Charles
Leigh Witchel
(not to originate the company, obviously, but in later years.)
LAW
In article <39ADD959...@ix.netcom.com>,
Anthony
Floriaan Philips von Nueman wrote:
> I think that You have to see other
> Modern-Ballets/Performers first before You can real-
> ly decide about modern (and in 3-D ofcourse, no TV).
Sure - I'll keep watching, and attending the occasional class, when I
can summon the courage :-). I don't want to be too quick to write off
any dance that's vaguely modern, it's just that so far I haven't been
enjoying it anything like as much as classical.
Perhaps what I've been doing wrong is trying to evaluate modern dance
pieces as if they were classical. I think the notion that dance is
dance, and that modern sits closely alongside classical is very
misleading. They seem to be two totally different entities - it's just
that they require similar training, and occupy a similar environment.
> "The Russian ballet lovers are fed up with the tra-
> ditional classical style and are exited about this
> new style".
Mmmm... I asked if a liking for modern dance stems from a growing
boredom with classical in my original post, I think.... perhaps it is
one of the 'ways' some people grow to like modern after all.
> Steptext was rather a shocking experience for
> You but it's quite good, really ! :-).
I'll keep an open mind....
> A bit of Steptext: http://www1.tip.nl/~t868291/tijdelijk.html
>
> Take Your StepNext.
Bedankt!
(Interesting web-page - I liked Le Monde's response to Steptext :-). By
the way, what software do I need to run the video?)
Anthony
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
d...@panix.com (Leigh Witchel) wrote:
> Balanchine had Lincoln Kirstein. He also was in fact funded by the
NEA
> (not to originate the company, obviously, but in later years.)
My bet is that the odd NYSCA dollar or two found its way in the NY
State Theatre, along with city funding.
(That's "New York State Council for the Arts".)
--
-------------
Jeffrey E. Salzberg, Lighting Designer
Portfolio: http://www.suncoast.quik.com/salzberg
(Now featuring "This Day in Arts History")
Currently in Sarasota, FL, where any
place worth driving to is worth driving
to ve-e-e-e-ry slowly.
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
NEA
> (not to originate the company, obviously, but in later years.)
My bet is that the odd NYSCA dollar or two found its way into the NY
Bang2B
>control, to me, is indicative of poor technique.
>
Well that is fascinating too, in a way. I prefer loss of control in the sense
of abandon, spontaneity, being "in the moment", not controlling the results but
letting the body go. Lots of training makes this sort of loss of control
thrilling.
David
Floriaan Philips von Nueman
The video-file wrks in Windows Media Player,
V. 6.4 > and in the Real Media Player, hp:
>(Interesting web-page - I liked Le Monde's response to Steptext :-).
Oui, traiter qc. dans le détail :-), page de titre:
"Sylvie Guillem au bord de la rupture", auteur:
Dominique Fretard , ' maybe it's still on the hp:
Salut !, Floriaan
Amsterdam
Pays-Bas
Bang2B
budget of the NEA is a modest endowment of public money. No wallets were
ripped establishing it. Balanchine and his company expanded enormously during
this exceptionally productive period of time during which and from which all
americans will benefit at least as much as they will from a comparable figure
being spent on any other "legitimate" function of government of which
supporting the arts (in part and modestly) is but one of many. My what a long
sentence Bang2b can write.
David
Bang2B
>movement (across the stage, that is) except for dancers sanding in one space,
>curling, twisting, hunching, etc.
>
Then you've seen virtually nothing. What a pompous statement. You should be
ashamed of yourself. Taylor, Cunningham, Tharp, Brown (Trisha and Ron),
Graham, Jasperse, Me, Neil Greenberg, Doug Elkins, Doug Varone, David Dorfman,
Alvin Ailey, Irene Hultman, Heidi Latsky, Sean Curran, Bill T. Jones, Jyri
Kilian, Mats Ek, DV8, Siobhan Davies, Matthilde Monnier, Mark Morris, Mark
Morris, Mark Morris....good god!
love,
David
Kay S. Colbert
judgement" as they get older :)
He started out the right way anyway.
Maybe I'm crazy (well yeah. I know I AM crazy by most standards) but I
think that the more folks you HAVE to please in ANY creative effort, the
more "stiffled" you are gonna become.
I'm not artistic myself. But for the past 6 months I've worked with
"creatives". It's been an eye opener.
And it seems that they do the BEST when you leave them alone. You start
telling them what they HAVE to do because you made an "investment" in
them and they get a little wigged out.
I think Mentors are the way to go, myself. People that are in AWE of
you for reasons real or imagined. THEY don't "give it and take it away"
at a moments notice.
If my boss had hired/fired a designer based on the fact that a customer
didn't like "one thing" they did it would be sad.
But she is their mentor and their Angel. And they can't do anything
WRONG as far as SHE is concerned.
Uncle Sam ='s the public. Do you really want the public DEMANDING that
you produce what they want for their dollars?
I'm sorry. I said I wouldn't do this. I'm sorry - - - - :)
Kay S. Colbert
I'm not a libertarian. But I like to support what "I like to support".
And right now, I don't have enough money for a ticket to Wolftrap. Or
Kennedy Center. Or the $1.00 movie for that matter :)
But I paid my taxes right on time :) And I'm funding lord knows WHAT
(well actually I DO know about a few things I'm funding) that isn't what
"I like". And as a result, I don't have money for what I DO.
MichaelG wrote:
>
> X-47987-Poster: "MichaelG" <garri...@earthlink.net>
>
> David,
>
> I appreciate your point of view, however I do have philosophical
> reservations about "taxpayer money" not "federal money," which IS
> confiscated by virtue of the fact that if we do not pay taxes we go to jail
> at gunpoint and if we resist we can be shot. Why should folks in Podunk
> Idaho be forced to fund artists' endeavors such as Morris, Taylor,
> Cunningham or anyone else? Especially when they would probably never have
> the opportunity to see these peoples' work and maybe wouldn't want to if
> they could. Thes artists are primarily working in New York City and may even
> scoff at the idea of going to, what the elites refer to, as flyover country
> to perform. I know Paul Taylor and others do tour, but frankly they could
> never reach all who can't be exposed, but are still being rquired pay. No
> one should expect one penny of someone elses money for their livelyhood. I
> am reasonably sure that I am in the minority on this list about this, but as
> a libertarian (gasp!) I can't reconcile this. I think it would be a very
> good idea to put a box to be checked on tax forms so people can donate to
> the NEA or the Endowment for the Humanities the way they do for presidential
> candidate donations. That is to make it voluntary. I am sure out of 200
> million taxpayers they could get enough funds to go around and may even get
> more than they are getting now. For me that would be the fair way to go
> about it. Besides it is not like there wasn't art before the NEA. Those in
> Hollywood and working on Broadway do not receive taxpayer money, they must
> finance their own projects, as it should be.
>
> Respectfully
> MG
>
> > >People absolutely have the right to do what
> > >they want.......until they decide they have some right for the government
> to
> > >confiscated money from others to pay for it.
> > >
> >
> > Most of the dance that receives some amount of federal money from the very
> > small endowment is really quite accomplished work. Creating a small
> endowment
> > for the arts out of public money is not what I call "confiscation".
> > Experiments and research in art, when conducted by accomplished and
> promising
> > artists need support and a modest state endowment is a good hedge against
> > purely commercial or partisan demands. It is an investment well worth
> making.
> > Mark Morris, Paul Taylor and Merce Cunningham all receive some state
> > and federal moneys and none of them have made a nude man imitate Rodin in
> my
> > memory. I might like it if any of them did.
> > David
> >
bek
Wow, fast finger exercise on the touch pad.
SORRY:
Forsythe:: not what ever the spell checker put in that place!!
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: Floriaan Philips von Nueman <rv.n...@tip.nl>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Steptext
bek
Thank you for this bit of Steptext.
Naturally, it is hard to make any judgment on the overall piece when
something has camera work moving around acting as part of the choreography
also.
But, this little excerpt was very engaging.
The dancers were very lovely, the choreography fit the music, as did the
movement quality, and the movements themselves had a lovely stylistic
quality to it.....familiar to other Frothiest works.
Not that I am overly fond of his work, but from the little snip in this
"movie" I liked what I saw.
thanks for posting it.
and I sure am glad I have cable internet, and not have to wait 8 mins. to
upload a 1 min. snip.
bek
----- Original Message -----
From: Floriaan Philips von Nueman <rv.n...@tip.nl>
To: <ballet...@world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: Steptext
> X-48044-Poster: "Floriaan Philips von Nueman" <rv.n...@tip.nl>
Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba
john horne wrote:
> X-48036-Poster: "john horne" <danca...@bellsouth.net>
> Michael,[SNIP]
> Most of
> us have never met Rocio, [SNIP]
blush-- thanks for your words john. I appreciate it. After what-6 +years of
emails I guess it's like knowing each other and many members of the lists.
> But for the record, I know that a
> couple of her students were here at AB this summer and left a mark on every
> student they came in contact with.
thanks again for saying that, I think it was the other way around, the kids and
Miriam came back very happy and very enthusiastic about the new school year.
They loved the experience and want to repeat it next summer. The people and
director of the Atlanta Ballet School were most kind to them and we appreciate
it very very much.
> Government support may not be any more
> sufficient in Mexico than it is here,
less, actually.... we are a third world country in crisis..... if people knew
what we get paid they would really fall backwards... lettuce and tomatoes,
remember? lots of work for "the love of art". Not only teachers, but anyone who
has the passion for dance and try to live doing what they love.
As always, your message is very accurate and elocuent. Very true all you say.
Regards,
rocio
ps. go get the package,,, ok?.....................................
>
> johnh
> http://www.dancartist.com
> http://www.nationalcomputerinc.com
> http://www.businessleasecentral.com
>
--
ROCIO CECILIA BARRAZA RIVACOBA roci...@iserve.net.mx
DANZA DANCE DANSE DANS TANZ
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1854/
SOCIEDAD MEXICANA DE COREOGRAFOS SOMEC
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1854/coreografos_somec.html
DANCE BALLET MAILING LIST MEMBER BIOS
http://members.tripod.com/~cecilia/biosindx.html
Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba
Hi,
I thought these links might interest you, great discussions in the first
couple of links. Nice reading to think about.
http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/aesthetics-l.html
http://listserv.indiana.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A1=ind0008&L=aesthetics-l
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/bio.html
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/article7.html
http://members.tripod.com/~cecilia/knowledgeindx.html
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1854/rblinks7.html
http://www.balletalert.com
Regards,
Rocio
bek
but, it isn't loss of control really......
Esp. if one expects this "form" to be used at each performance.
One might see the loss in a rehearsal, and say, wow, cool that is a really
great move......lets put it in,
The dancer then needs to be able to reproduce this "lack" of
control.........so there is no real lack of control, just a real ability to
control ones body and reproduce a movement that came naturally, and looked
good, even if it was "out" of control.
you are right, dancers who are not well trained can not get to this "loss of
control" area.
It takes really fine professionals to hit that place and not hurt themselves
or look like fools.
bek
> X-48062-Poster: ban...@aol.com (Bang2B)
MichaelG
John,
How are you? I will respond to you personally as I think others on the list
are over this one. I will do it later because Hal wore me out! :-)
Michael
MichaelG
Michael G. writes to all:
I am going to respond to Hal as he deserves a fair response. I want to beg
all of your forgiveness as I have pushed the envelope here. It is my fault
this discussion has gone so far off topic. Thank you for your patience and
tolerance. I have the utmost respect for all here and am priviledged to
participate. This will be my last post on this subject.
MG replies to Hal's statement which follows:
.....you folks may need the assistance from the resources made available
through
> > Taxpayer funded relief programs. In my mind this is a legitimate
function
> > of our government.
Questions by Hal , Answers by MG
It's a legitimate function because you say so?
Who determines what is legitimate or not?
No. My opinion is based on my understanding of our constitution.
Is agricultural subsidies legitimate?
no
Is defense legitimate?
yes
Is health care legitimate?
Actually no.
Is foreign aid legitimate?
To the extent it supports our national security.
Is aid to the r&d legitimate?
?
Is the small business admin legitimate?
no.
Is aid to the arts legitimate?
I'm afraid not
Hal:
They are all legitimate.
MG:
Your opinion but not according to the constitution
Hal goes on to state:
Who supports which ones is the question. Who values which ones is the
question. None are more or less deserving in a vacuum.
MG:
They are all deserving. But not as a function of government.
MG
It is not the government's function to heal our social ills because quite
frankly it can't.
Hal wrote:
None sense.(sic) It can and does. You think the country would be better
off without civil rights laws.
MG Replies
I'll give you that to a certain extent. The Jim Crowe laws which infringed
on the rights of African Americans were unconstitutional. What the civil
rights movement accomplished was the realization of constitutional edicts
that all are equal in the eyes of the law.
MG wrote
Bigotry is unfortunately a product of human nature and I. think these types
of human foibles is fair game for artists and all of us to take a stand
against as we speak out to try to change peoples' hearts.Unfortunately some
artists use their art to attack others and this is divisive as it creates
contention among us and actually corrodes our social fabric. We can "push
the envelope", but for what reasons?
Hal asks:
What does that have to do with anything we are discussing?
MG
The original discussion centered around public arts funding as I am
attempting to explain my position. Pushing the envelope sometimes offends
and to the extent some people are offended they do not want to support such
with their money. However my position is based upon the idea of small
non-intrusive government. "Government can only do for you to the extent it
can do to you."
MG stated :
Government as a matter of policy can't create a lasting effect.
Hal replied:
Of course it can. This is really just nonsense. What about the
desegregation of the Armed Forces? You don't think that had a lasting
effect? To say nothing of the civil rights laws and court rulings.
MG:
Yes, good point. You are right. The armed forces led the way for
desegregation. That was a matter of policy. But I doubt if they did any
more than Jackie Robinson.
MG also said:
However our elected officials can and should use their bully-pulpits
to continue to speak out and provide leadership.
Hal replied:
Agreed.
MG said:
There are no laws that can change the way people think.
Hal replied:
Of course there are. They just take time. Without the civil rights
laws and ruling of the 50's and 60's this country would be a very different
place. And bigotry would be far more significant than it is today.
Integration has played an enormous part in changing peoples minds and
hearts. Children learn from what they see and hear. Reducing the level of
bigoted discourse has an enormous impact over time. Just because
a law won't change the minds of some existing bigots the effect on the next
and subsequent generations is enormous.
MG:
Existing or otherwise there is still bigotry and always will be.
MG:
I agree that government waste is a major problem. That only reinforces my
point.
Hal:
I don't think I ever said government waste is a significant problem. Of
all of the problems confronting this country government waste is the least
of
them. Far more important is the effect that money has on our government
institutions and the idiots who think that by giving more tax releif to the
very most wealthy will help this country. It will only help the very very
rich.
MG:
You spoke of the bloated military. I interpreted that as waste.
There is that class envy thing again. In relation to arts funding, if you
could take a look at the benefactor roles for the largest arts institutions
in this country you will find the names of many very wealthy patrons and I
believe these people deserve more consideration than to be bashed because
they are wealthy. Besides, if these people were given a tax break, perhaps
they would participate in more philanthropic endeavors. I am optimistic
about the generosity of the American people and their willingness to
voluntarily give support to a myriad of causes.
MG said:
Actually the USA is not a democracy it is a Representative Republic which
depends on democratic principles to decide representation.
Hal replied:
Huh?
MG replies:
Why doesn't this response surprise me? Read the Constitution. You will not
find the word Democracy in it. You may also try the Federalist Papers.
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding on what to have for dinner.
MG:
Take the rich out of our national equation and what do the poor or any of
the rest of us have? We are all Americans and deserve respect. Class envy
gets us nowhere!
Hal:
What does that mean. It is just gibberish. I am not talking aboutclass
envy or disrespecting anyone. Taxation is not about class envy it is about
getting the most money where it exists. As willie sutton when asked why he
robs banks -"it's where the money is!"
MG:
That is very Marxist of you. The Sutton remark is rather frightening.
Hal:
The rich is where the money is. So they get taxed more.
MG:
Did you know that there are some very wealthy people who pay no taxes, as
taxation is based on income, not net worth? Perhaps we should hunt those
folks down and take their money. People who earn more should pay more but
only as a fair percentage of income.
MG finishes:
Well Hal it has certainly been fun! Take care.
Most respectfully
MG
MichaelG
> > Someone wrote: (me, Anthony)
> > > But let's not argue about whether or not we should be publicly
> funding
> > > artists. Instead, let's stick to arguing about what we think those
> > > artists should be doing, and why. If indeed works in the style of
> > > Steptext are worth taxpayer's money, then the reasons for that
> should
> > > become apparent in our discussions.
> >
> > MG replies:
> > .... An
> > artist shouldn't be subjected to what he or she "should" be doing, no
> > more than you or I should be told what we "should" be saying.
Anthony replied:
> Sure, I wasn't trying to say that we have the right to tell the artists
> exactly what to do; they're not artists if we do that, they're
> contractors. I was really asking what sort of things we would be doing
> if we were the ones in receipt of public funding.
MG replies:
By virtue of Taxpayer funding you do have the right to say what art should
be supported. This is the problem. No artist has the right to take money
from others and then try to exclude them from holding beureaucrats and
artists accountable for how our money is used. This is the trap artists
fall into when we think society has a moral imperative to support us. We
limit our freedom when we require others who may disagree with what we are
doing to support us. I am sure that if some asshole who somehow received
NEA funding wanted to produce a performance extolling the virtues of the
"Third Reich" in the name of "art," all NEA supporters on this list would be
up in arms. This is an extreme example, I know, but it drives home my
ultimate point. So let us be consistant. Who is to say we shouldn't fund
this type of expression, even though it is obvious we shouldn't. Freedom of
speech is an inalienable right, however we can't say to others "shut up and
give us your money because we know what is good for you."
MG
bek
one point I will make here.
What about Local taxes.
SLC put in a very very small tax (passed by the people) to support the zoo,
and other county functions...specified.
One was the ballet company.
They get a couple of 100,000 bucks a year now from this very small increase.
It has helped the zoo, the county and the arts.
The people voted it in, and they were the ones who decided where it would
go.
And they decided, the zoo, and a few arts groups...the ballet was
one.,,,lucky that we were.
It has helped our company.
We hardly get any federal funding any longer.
And it gets lower each year.
So, If a town wants to support certain home grown art groups, let them put a
.0025 % tax in effect.
Amazing how much money that will bring in.
bek
Tr...@email.fake
ban...@aol.com (Bang2B) wrote:
>>Too much of what I've seen of modern dance seems to my eyes to consist of NO
>>movement (across the stage, that is) except for dancers sanding in one space,
>>curling, twisting, hunching, etc.
>>
>
>Then you've seen virtually nothing. What a pompous statement. You should be
>ashamed of yourself. Taylor, Cunningham, Tharp, Brown (Trisha and Ron),
>Graham, Jasperse, Me, Neil Greenberg, Doug Elkins, Doug Varone, David Dorfman,
^
|
is this not being pompous ???
>Alvin Ailey, Irene Hultman, Heidi Latsky, Sean Curran, Bill T. Jones, Jyri
>Kilian, Mats Ek, DV8, Siobhan Davies, Matthilde Monnier, Mark Morris, Mark
>Morris, Mark Morris....good god!
Incidentally as cited in Simpson's Contemporary Quotations, compiled
by James B. Simpson. 1988.
NUMBER: 7699
AUTHOR: Jose Limon
QUOTATION: Dancers aren't pompous; they're too tired.
ATTRIBUTION: NY Times 31 Jul 66
SUBJECTS: Communications & the Arts: Music & Dance:
Artists & Entertainers
Trog Woolley
(A Croweater languishing in Pommie Land)
Isis Astarte Diana Hecate Demeter Kali Inanna
Jeffrey E. Salzberg
Leigh is right when he says that arts funding discussions here tend to
disrupt the collegial fabric of our newsgroup. Let's let it rest,
please.
Yours in sweet irony. . . .
Jeff
Bang2B
is, which is more pompous; claiming that modern dance has no movement in it, or
saying that it does (with some attitude).
David
Anthony
http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/aesthetics-l.html
http://listserv.indiana.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A1=ind0008&L=aesthetics-l
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/bio.html
http://www.csulb.edu/~jvancamp/article7.html
http://members.tripod.com/~cecilia/knowledgeindx.html
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/1854/rblinks7.html
That one looks familiar :-)
http://www.balletalert.com
Anthony
hal
certainly
wont be resolved by either Michale or me "winning". So I will not
respond it great detail other than to state that his raising the
constitutional issue is nonsense. It is
just like the gun lobby who can't properly interpret the second
amendment. So
if you believe that the SBA, Health Care, R&D, or nearly any other
government program
other than defense is not to be supported there is not much more to
say.
Nough said.
R E Reeves
Although I am on the outer fringe of all the communicators in this
cyberdanceworld, you and I have a nice, recent communication going, so I am
very interested in your current diatribe, here, re the selectivity of the
illustrious dance critics who post their biases on this NG and in the
magazines. I think your furious output is justified; we dance-web-junkies
deserve more news about the world outside of NYC., including that of our (your)
own inputting.
Perhaps our URLs are just too overloaded to be able to ingest and spew out all
the current dance activity. (A good sign, no?)
Anyway, please keep up your vociferocity from out there in Zion. You are a
valued contributor to the keyboard-dance ranks.!
chumly
bek wrote:
> X-47960-Poster: "bek" <cca...@home.com>
>
> Rocio.
> One wonders why Dance Magazine reviews who they actually do review.
> It is not just from the US. A lot of the companies in the US NEVER get a
> review.
> I can't remember the last time Ballet West had any kind of review, and one
> that would be non biased...ie: from someone outside of a person who is the
> critic in one of our papers.........
>
> Your country is not the only one left out in the cold, so to speak.
> How about Canada?
> How about what is going on in Puerto Rico? Hawaii, Alaska???
> So many places.......so little coverage.
> And that is all part of the USA.........
>
> The magazine, seems to favor certain companies, and will ONLY allow those
> companies to have space in their magazine.
> I am quite fed up with the whole thing also.
>
> We had a very special award given to Mr. W. Christensen, founder of SFB,
> Ballet West, and the first person to do the full length Nutcracker in the
> US, if not in the america's/////////(so all you Nutty haters, blame Mr. C,
> not Mr. B)
> He was the first, he also was the first to have a Ballet Dept that was
> separate from the sports depts. or the modern depts......
> NOW do we, here get coverage? no
> Even tho Mr. Philps from Dance Mag. came and gave a welcoming and
> congratulartory speech, do we (slc) get any coverage.........no so far.
>
> Talk about NYC short views.........Mr. Philps figured we in the boonies
> would not know the difference between the three Christensen brothers.
> His whole speech was based on that fact. He had to change in mid speech when
> he was totally befuddled that these pions in SLC, actually KNEW their dance
> History. OH MY OH MY.
> What a blinded, short sighted view on what is outside of NY.
> And I think many of you who post to this NG are of the same opinions.
> There is no place that exists except NYC.
> Get your nose out of your city............
> There are more dance groups, more culture, more excellent artists, theater
> groups, opera companies, and (rocio) cultural diversity dance groups all
> through out this large area called USA, as well as other
> countries.......Mexico, Cuba, Canada, etc etc.etc.
> Why must everything in the general vocabulary of this NG refer to NYC?
> Culture does not end at the Hudson River.
> Nor the Rio Grande, or the Great Lakes, or the Rockies.
>
> Get out, and learn.
> Read beyond the Arts section in the NY times.
> They are just as closed minded as Dance Mag.
>
> Did any of you know that there is a horrid problem in SF?
> That the dance studios are closing due to horrendous rents?
> Do any of you have any idea as to how many dance groups little ol Salt Lake
> City has?
> (professional BTW)
> What about Symphony........Opera?
> Theater?
> Art Galleries,
> Choral Groups?
>
> We have two professional Ballet companies.
> three + professional modern/dance companies
> Two symphonies
> Two Opera companies.
> God only knows how many choral groups........at least 4 or more
> We have two fully functional and wonderful professional theaters.
> Plus four + smaller theaters for dance and theater which seat 200-600/
> We have 4+ professional theater groups.
> We have the Shakespeare festival which just got a Tony for the finest
> regional professional theater.
> This is in a state with less than 3 million.
> In a city about 300,000.-500,000 people (approx.
>
> Wake up.........we are not the only small city with statistics like this.
> Look at Florida.
> Do you think the only thing down there is MCB???
> Think again.
> And the cultural diversity of the area would make it rich in ethnic dance
> groups also.
>
> It is time for Dance Mag. and NY to wake up and see that so much is going on
> in this country as well as other countries.
>
> bek
>
> HOW long does it take for a magazine to put in reviews..........why should
> it take 6 months?
> That is stupid.
>
> If you guys from Dance Mag are lurking........I hope you are listening.
> It is time you stopped playing favorites........
> It is time that reviews or articles were not just for Boston, NYCB, ABT, SFB
> (which doesn't get that many) Houston, and those special favorities you love
> so much.
> Spread out............do something important, cover dance without bias.
>
> Include other countries, and other companies.
> Get critics who are not locked into their newspapers in the cities. Get
> people who can give honest reviews.........
>
> So Rocio, don't feel badly that your country isn't getting any attention.
> Damn Cuba gets more than some places in the USA.
>
> You have every right to be angry.........I am, and I live here in the good
> ol US of A.
> What about you Canadians on this forum?
>
> Anyway.......
>
> > X-47953-Poster: roci...@iserve.net.mx (Rocio C. Barraza Rivacoba)
> >
> > Leigh Witchel wrote:
> >
> > > X-47943-Poster: d...@panix.com (Leigh Witchel)
> >
> > > [SNIP]
> >
> > > In America, two "moderns" most ballet oriented.....................
> >
> > [SNIP]
> >
> > Wait: IN America........... or rather in the United States...... In
> Mexico,
> > North America., things are a bit different - I wish I had any talent as a
> > dance critic, but I don't, that is why I don't post about what happens
> down
> > here. I wish that someone in Dance Magazine, for example, could review
> more
> > dance from their neighboring country, (was glad to see at least that Jazz
> > Convention review). But considering all the contemporary groups in our
> > country, considering all that performance art that bek was talking about
> that
> > occurs and so on and on, I wonder about their correspondent in our
> > country..... who lives in a smaller city where "almost" nothing occurs. It
> > would be interesting to see all the trends and influences from one country
> to
> > another........
> >
> > Anyway, I agree with your post, Leigh, and do enjoy your articles very
> much,
> > and it is interesting to read about Anthony's views as general audience.
> > Regards.
> > r.
> >
> > >
> > > Leigh Witchel - d...@panix.com http://members.aol.com/lwitchel
> > > New York City Ballet Principal Peter Boal performs with Dance as Ever on
> > > September 28-October 1, 2000. For more information, visit
> > > http://members.aol.com/dnceasever
> >
> >
> >
> >
JKocich
What I said was only that "too much"
of what I've lately seen is ... etc.
Of course I didn't mean Mark Morris in that statement. There's no such thing as
too much Mark Morris.
And since I'm not a dancer, does that mean I *can* be pompous <g>?
Julia
jko...@aol.com
Bang2B
because I'm so damn pompous and I surround myself with arrogant dancers.
However I've not had to search very far...
David