Betta Breeding - Genetics and Colours
Toki
breed it with two different females, a Cornflower blue and a Red.
I have read that breeding a blue/green with a red is "bad". I'm assuming
they mean the outcome will be a very hotch-potch spawn, but I'm not sure. I
dont really mind if the outcome isnt show quality. Can anyone shed some
light on this?
I was thinking about a red butterfly, but.. is there any colour that would
"go" with both these colour females? Perhaps marble?
--
Toki
^^^^
What's your poisson?
frankkay
looks like, but what are you going to do with 50 to 100 "hotch-potch"
looking offspring? The pet shops pay a much higher price for a show quality
fish because it takes generations and years for the breeder to get a true
breading show quality fish. If your going to breed "hotch-potch" bettas,
don't pay the price for show quality ones! Hotch-potch bettas and guppys, do
make good feeders! .........Frank
Toki wrote in message
<3b0b77d1$0$25512$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>...
Sarah
color quality, but potential buyers certainly will. However, most of
the best color and characterisitics in Bettas came from outcrossing
strains and breeders simply toying around with various mating
combinations.
Crossing blue with red will yield many many babies that are solid blue
color with red wash - which is a term describing red coloration in the
fins (usually the ventrals) and body of fish that should be some other
color. This is not exactly a good thing and isn't something the
high-quality breeders want to perpetuate in their lines. It's
especially a disaster in opaques (white bettas).
Genetics isn't simple, but I'm going to try a make it just that.
Different genes control different characteristics of a fish, be it color
or tail shape or labyrinth formation or manufacturing an enzyme so it
can digest it's lunch of bloodworms. The genes of most interest in
Bettas are those concerning tail shape and those concerning color. A
characteristic as complex as appearance (in respect to color especially)
is naturally governed by the influence of many many genes interacting
together. With each gene are different forms of that genes
characteristic. Each form is called an allele. Hence, in humans, a
single gene governs eye color, and this gene has several allele forms,
most commonly brown, hazel, blue and green. Varying degrees of color in
between each of these forms indicates that other genes act upon this
trait.. but that's getting tooooo complex. :)
For color in Bettas there are, what I call for simplicity, color
families. Royal Blue, steel blue and green are in one family and are
governed by one gene. Red, yellow and chocolate are in another. A
number of genes transform these two basic color families. (Much like
some genes interfere with a brown eyed person's color and results in
blue areas in the eye or even green areas.) For instance the melano
gene transforms royal blues into blacks. The pastel genes remove the
fish's black under layer and make the overall color a pale hue, usually
only shown by irridescence. Irridescence itself is controlled by it's
own gene. If you wanted to keep up the color purity of a specific line
you would try to breed within a color family. (Like breeding a steel
blue pastel to a steel blue would keep things pretty pure.)
The genetics of patterned fish is a little more complex. The same gene
controls marbling and butterfly patterning in the Betta and I'm not sure
what makes the difference. So if you breed two marbles together you'll
get more marbles and possibly some butterflies. The opposite is also
true. However, breeding a butterfly to a solid colored fish will only
turn out more marbles/butterflies IF your solid colored fish carries,
but does not show, the mutation for marbling/butterflying. Another form
of marbling exists and is actually variegation in the fins (streaks
actually) of red or blue. This too is a separate gene. A cambodian
body (no black layer on the body resulting in pale, even flesh,
coloration) is also another gene. If you breed two cambodians together,
you will only get cambodians (excepting maybe the odd mutation). A
cambodian to a solid fish yields cambodians only if the solid fish
carried the mutation for cambodian. (However even if the entire spawn
is solid colored they will all carry the trait for cambodian so it
should show if you let the spawn interbreed.)
On a side note blue fish do not show red coloration because their genes
that code for red have been fixed so that they do not produce red
coloration in the fish. It does not mean that completely blue fish have
lost the genes that control red. Fixed genes in fish eventually leads
to a fixed line, where all the fish breed true with one another.
If you still want a recommendation as far as what color male to breed
let me know what your goal is with the females. Specifically are you
trying to make a certain color - like the breeders who are on a quest
for orange or purple? Or are you looking to produce blue marbles or red
marbles or blue/red marbles? Are you looking to produce commercially
popular fish? The best advice for buying stock is to buy healthy males
that are 4 to 8 months of age that are active and produce bubblenests in
their jars. Look for males that are delta tailed, or close to halfmoon,
or even halfmoon if you want fish that may end up being show quality in
the long run. Investing in two males, one in each family of color to
match your females, may be the best bet if you want to keep the colors
relatively pure. (Like a yellow for your red female and a green or
steel blue for the other female.) Let me know if I can be of further
help.
---
>Sarah
Toki
> let me know what your goal is with the females. Specifically are you
> trying to make a certain color - like the breeders who are on a quest
> for orange or purple? Or are you looking to produce blue marbles or red
> marbles or blue/red marbles? Are you looking to produce commercially
> popular fish? The best advice for buying stock is to buy healthy males
> that are 4 to 8 months of age that are active and produce bubblenests in
> their jars. Look for males that are delta tailed, or close to halfmoon,
> or even halfmoon if you want fish that may end up being show quality in
> the long run. Investing in two males, one in each family of color to
> match your females, may be the best bet if you want to keep the colors
> relatively pure. (Like a yellow for your red female and a green or
> steel blue for the other female.) Let me know if I can be of further
> help.
Thank you (and Frank) for your advice. :) I have never *ever* seen a show
quality fish in my area. Well, maybe my blue female, but that's why I bought
her. :) My locals LFS's have said that they will take any betta that is
healthy, as there really arent many betta breeders here. Most people buy a
betta simply for a bowl or a community. Eventually I will try to breed my
own quality strains, but at first I wanted to get the technique down pat. So
with these first few spawns, I will keep some of the offspring to start my
own lines, as I know you cant really rely on pet shop bettas for good
spawns. I was worried that a red-blue cross would produce serious genetic
defects or something. As it is I think I will buy a nice red or blue solid
(you *can* get some pretty decent solid reds at my favourite LFS every now
and again) and only breed it with one female, then buy another male, as you
said. Thanks again for the advice. :)
> >Sarah
Toki
> Thank you (and Frank) for your advice. :) I have never *ever* seen a show
> quality fish in my area. Well, maybe my blue female, but that's why I
bought
> her. :) My locals LFS's have said that they will take any betta that is
> healthy, as there really arent many betta breeders here. Most people buy a
> betta simply for a bowl or a community. Eventually I will try to breed my
> own quality strains, but at first I wanted to get the technique down pat.
So
> with these first few spawns, I will keep some of the offspring to start my
> own lines, as I know you cant really rely on pet shop bettas for good
> spawns. I was worried that a red-blue cross would produce serious genetic
> defects or something. As it is I think I will buy a nice red or blue solid
> (you *can* get some pretty decent solid reds at my favourite LFS every now
> and again) and only breed it with one female, then buy another male, as
you
> said. Thanks again for the advice. :)
I just bought him.. a gorgeous solid red. He's a veiltail with exceptionally
long finnage and no blue anywhere, not even in the ventrals. He also has a
slight black edge to his caudal fin. He does have a small amount of pale
irridescence, but I dont mind :) He's beautiful.
Toki
> I just bought him.. a gorgeous solid red. He's a veiltail with
exceptionally
> long finnage and no blue anywhere, not even in the ventrals. He also has a
> slight black edge to his caudal fin. He does have a small amount of pale
> irridescence, but I dont mind :) He's beautiful.
Some pics are up at
http://community.webshots.com/user/_tokitoki
follow the "Toki's Tanks" link :)
frankkay
with blue, and red with red. From what I can see, you should get some real
nice offspring, and a good price for them........Frank
Toki wrote in message
<3b0ccc38$0$25513$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>...
Toki
> Just took a look at your bettas - real nice. Stick with breeding the blue
> with blue, and red with red. From what I can see, you should get some real
> nice offspring, and a good price for them........Frank
Thankyou :) They're not very good pics, but he really is magnificent! It was
either him or a blue male... but all the blues had red in their ventrals,
and I have heard that that is really hard to get rid of.