Beginner's mistake
leopard
A few weeks ago, I posted a message about my woes. Guess what? My woes are
gone. The tank is cycled. Conclusion? It's possible to cycle an
overly-small overly-crowded tank. My tank holds about 10 gallons of water.
And has 18 inches worth of fishes in it.
---
Here's my configuration:
1. 10 gal tank
2. Air-pump driven corner filter. I use sand to fill up the filter so as to
weigh it down, don't put charcoal in it.
3. A 2nd airpump connected to an airstone.
4. Sand as gravel.
5. One small piece of driftwood with java fern attached to it.
6. 1 x pleco suckermouth
7. 5 x zebra danios
8. 4 x black (widow) tetra
9. 3 x black (neon) tetra
A. 5 x serpae tetra
B. 1 x unknown fish (was supposed to be fed to my friend's arowana)
---
Here's my 2 cts:
1. I stopped relying on chemicals to measure my water parameters. I look at
fish behavior. I give them a 30% water change when I see them stressed.
And a 40% water change when they get very stressed. Otherwise, I give a 25%
water change per week.
2. I've given up on chemicals which alter water parameters. Will elaborate
below. I only use 2 things now - dechlorinators & salt (NaCl).
---
The chemicals:
1. Blackwater treatment - this expensive bottle of thing did nothing for my
fish. Didn't kill them but didn't do them any good either.
2. Bacteria/culture additives (whatever the brand) - nice for kick starting
the cycling process. That's all.
3. Color dyes which are used to treat ich. Nice to keep them around. But
don't bother to use them as a preventive drug. Use salt.
4. Medication for internal bleeding, ulcers, etc... keep a bottle around.
5. Copper salt solution. Did nothing for me nor my fishes so far.
6. Others. Don't bother.
Dave
>
>1. I stopped relying on chemicals to measure my water parameters. I look at
>fish behavior. I give them a 30% water change when I see them stressed.
>And a 40% water change when they get very stressed. Otherwise, I give a 25%
>water change per week.
So what you're saying is that you do maintenance on your tank whenever
your fish are stressed or very stressed. Not a good idea. With an
overcrowded tank you will find that they are stressed a lot. Stress
will reduce your overcrowding until a 25% once a week water change is
sufficient.
>2. I've given up on chemicals which alter water parameters. Will elaborate
>below. I only use 2 things now - dechlorinators & salt (NaCl).
>
Salt should be considered a med unless you have brackish water fish.
You don't so why are you adding salt?
>---
>
>The chemicals:
>
>1. Blackwater treatment - this expensive bottle of thing did nothing for my
>fish. Didn't kill them but didn't do them any good either.
>2. Bacteria/culture additives (whatever the brand) - nice for kick starting
>the cycling process. That's all.
>3. Color dyes which are used to treat ich. Nice to keep them around. But
>don't bother to use them as a preventive drug. Use salt.
You should not use any med as a preventive drug. In the end it won't
prevent nor cure anything.
>4. Medication for internal bleeding, ulcers, etc... keep a bottle around.
>5. Copper salt solution. Did nothing for me nor my fishes so far.
>6. Others. Don't bother.
All in all I agree, none of these chemicals is necessary and all are
quite expensive. Before I add anything to my tank I like to know
exactly what it is and what it will do. Blackwater extract & Cycle
certainly don't fit this category, they're both a complete waste of
time IMO.
Dave
ravinwulf
> Hi there!
>
> A few weeks ago, I posted a message about my woes. Guess what? My woes are
> gone. The tank is cycled. Conclusion? It's possible to cycle an
> overly-small overly-crowded tank. My tank holds about 10 gallons of water.
> And has 18 inches worth of fishes in it.
Unfortunately, a few weeks of survival doesn't count for much. You have to keep
them alive, healthy and growing to full size for their normal lifespan which in
most cases is at least two or three years, and in some cases (that pleco you've
got comes to mind) may be a decade or better. Dollars to doughnuts, you'll have
many more problems down the line with the setup you describe, partly because
you're overcrowded and partly because you appear to be relying too heavily on
drugs and other additives to keep things going.
Regards,
ravinwulf
ravinwulf
Ooops, sorry, my mistake. I reread your post and you've *quit* using all those
chemicals you've listed except salt. That's a step in the right direction, although
given the species you're keeping, I'd ditch the salt too unless there was a specific
problem of some sort. But I still think you're going to have more losses from
stress/overcrowding over the long haul.
Regards,
ravinwulf
Dave
>Here's one thing I really hate about this NG. Everybody's talking about the
>1 inch per gallon rule like it's some kind of imperial edict. I once read a
>post saying that in a fish's natural environment, it's 1 inch per many many
>gallons. I couldn't agree more.
>
There's exceptions to every rule. But like in Vegas some only talk
about their winnings and neglect to mention the number of times they
rolled the dice and lost. The 1" per gallon rule is a guesstimate at
best but you're almost doubling it. As the fish grow you'll exceed by
even more. It doesn't take a ton of logic to see that overcrowding
causes the transmission of diseases, feeding goes up, excess up, feces
go up, nitrates up etc, etc. This response to overcrowding has
nothing to do with this NG it's just plain logic. Take it for what
it's worth, it's your tank, stick an Oscar in it if you like.
Or just keep looking and try to find someone else who agrees with you.
That sounds like a good plan.
Dave
ravinwulf
> Here's one thing I really hate about this NG. Everybody's talking about the
> 1 inch per gallon rule like it's some kind of imperial edict. I once read a
> post saying that in a fish's natural environment, it's 1 inch per many many
> gallons. I couldn't agree more.
There are worlds of difference between life in a river or lake vs. life in an
enclosed system like an aquarium. You're comparing apples and oranges.
> When we talk about aquaria, we talk about fishes in a man made environment.
> Yes, I think my tank is overly-small and overly-crowded. But I've received
> a couple of emails from people who've "done it".
Sure it can be done *for a while*. Some people are really good, some people are
really lucky; people who keep grossly overstocked tanks going for extended
periods of time are usually both. Most people in this news group have probably
had overstocked tanks at one time or another (maybe even now ;-); I certainly
have, especially when I first started with this hobby twenty years ago. But I
don't make it a practice these days and I certainly wouldn't recommend it to
someone who hasn't got a reasonable amount of experience at spotting and dealing
with the almost inevitable problems that crop up. How do I know problems are
almost inevitable in the circumstances you describe? Believe me: been there,
done that, got the tee shirt. It's your tank; you should do what you want with
it, just don't be surprised when you have little nagging outbreaks of this and
that and the occasional premature death as you go along and when the fish don't
grow to normal sizes and exhibit abnormal behavior from time to time. Your tank
is what, a month or two old? Don't take this the wrong way, but that's not long
enough for you to have formed an opinion about what works and what doesn't over
the long run. If nothing else, common sense dictates that a pleco who should
live ten years and be 12-18 inches long at maturity can't stay in a ten gallon
tank forever... Trust me, if you stick with this hobby, the next year or so is
going to be a real learning experience for you.
> Like the post below, "...you'll have many more problems down the line with
> the setup you describe..." sounds almost definite.
Well, it's definitely my opinion anyway... ;-)
Regards,
ravinwulf
orthodo...@nospamnetscape.com
the general assembly:
my only use for Blackwater extract is 1) breeding tetras, they respond
to the "blackwater" conditions better than no 'blackwater' conditions.
2) it helps my pH to remain lower. it has tannin acids in it to mimic
those wonderful decayed conditions in the amazon. other than that it
is worthless, i don't use my blackwater every week i might use it
every couple of months or so to get my bleeding hearts to spawn.
Tom
I bet your fish's will be less stress if you don't use salt.
btw, blackwater or peat moss extract which contained natural organic hormone is
far more superior than you realize. My importer, wholesaler and I use it when I
was breeding discus and angel. Of course then, I don't buy a commercial products
but rather resources to DIY. You'll be surprise a cost effectiveness of 5-10 lb.
bag of Canadian Sp peat's.
Bacteria cultures also great for jump start processes. I use some when I setting
up my customer tank. $1 a bottle goes a long way.
Color dye, Methylene Blue, won't treat Ich. and adding it to the main tank will
guarantee a dead fish. It's great for hatching fish eggs but beside that, it's
useless. Adding salt to Ich. is like adding fuel to fire. I lost my gold
arrowana about 5 yr. ago and regretted it ever since. Salt is the greatest fish
stress ors I've ever known. Same goes with human btw. I've only use salt when
the fish first arrive. It'll help reduce toxicity of nitrite.
The best method for Internal breeding or ulcer is water change. Internal
breeding is always a result from bad water quality and it most likely be high
nitrate.
Copper solution and increase water temp. are the greatest tool in combating Ich
in freshwater as far as I know. Salt water is always a pain in a butts. You
could also use Formalin 'with cautions' or recently newer product call Mela-Fix.
Sorry for the long post. I got no life today.
leopard wrote:
> 1. I stopped relying on chemicals to measure my water parameters. I look at
> fish behavior. I give them a 30% water change when I see them stressed.
> And a 40% water change when they get very stressed. Otherwise, I give a 25%
> water change per week.
> 2. I've given up on chemicals which alter water parameters. Will elaborate
> below. I only use 2 things now - dechlorinators & salt (NaCl).
>
> ---
>
> The chemicals:
>
> 1. Blackwater treatment - this expensive bottle of thing did nothing for my
> fish. Didn't kill them but didn't do them any good either.
> 2. Bacteria/culture additives (whatever the brand) - nice for kick starting
> the cycling process. That's all.
> 3. Color dyes which are used to treat ich. Nice to keep them around. But
> don't bother to use them as a preventive drug. Use salt.
> 4. Medication for internal bleeding, ulcers, etc... keep a bottle around.
> 5. Copper salt solution. Did nothing for me nor my fishes so far.
> 6. Others. Don't bother.
--
Located in S. California. We specialized in fresh and marine, cichlid, tank set
up, and services. Information, pictures and aquarium supply also available here.
Home on the web http://www.paps2000.com
Tom
> Here's my configuration:
>
> 1. 10 gal tank
Btw, for the amount of bio load you have. May I suggest you use some fast
growing plant such as Hornwort, Valisneria or Riccia and decent lighting as
denitrators since your java fern is hardly usable. Those fish, tetra, preferred
stable environment. Change 25% weekly will more than likely weaken their immune
system and eventually kill them...try configure your tank to take only 5% weekly
or 10% every 2 wk. works much better but keep an eyes for pH swing thou.
GL
leopard
Dave <dclu...@home.com> wrote in message news:393a33df.659364242@news...
> So what you're saying is that you do maintenance on your tank whenever
> your fish are stressed or very stressed. Not a good idea. With an
> overcrowded tank you will find that they are stressed a lot. Stress
> will reduce your overcrowding until a 25% once a week water change is
> sufficient.
No, no. I meant I did that during the cycling process. :) Not now, now
it's 25% water change per week.
leopard
1 inch per gallon rule like it's some kind of imperial edict. I once read a
post saying that in a fish's natural environment, it's 1 inch per many many
gallons. I couldn't agree more.
When we talk about aquaria, we talk about fishes in a man made environment.
Yes, I think my tank is overly-small and overly-crowded. But I've received
a couple of emails from people who've "done it".
Like the post below, "...you'll have many more problems down the line with
the setup you describe..." sounds almost definite.
ravinwulf <ravi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:393A7EDC...@worldnet.att.net...
> got comes to mind) may be a decade or better. Dollars to doughnuts,
you'll have
Behomet
inch of fish...but what you have setup is many inches per gallon.
The one inch per gallon is something that I would consider as an nearly
absolute maximum amount of fish bioload that a tank can absorb if cycled
properly....this ratio also doesn't make any assumptions about the breadth
or height of the fish either....a "heavy" 2 inch fish can create 3 x as much
bioload as a 2 inch "light" fish...i.e. A 2 inch oscar produce much more
ammonia and waste than 2 neon tetras, and probably more than 5 or 6
even...heheh
I like to understock my tanks...to the degree of 4 or 5 gallons per inch,
but again this is a roundabout figure.
Also consider that a 20 gallon aqaurium more than likely is between 15 and
18 gallons of water after you remove volume for substrate, wood, plants and
rocks...
Scot
leopard wrote in message <393a8...@news.cyberway.com.sg>...
Dave
<admin.please...@paps2000.com> wrote:
>Change 25% weekly will more than likely weaken their immune
>system and eventually kill them...try configure your tank to take only 5% weekly
>or 10% every 2 wk. works much better but keep an eyes for pH swing thou.
>GL
>
Are you serious? Changing 25% of the water weekly will weaken their
immune system and eventually kill them? What do you base that
statement on? Adding ice cold water with a very different pH than the
tank water? It would have to be. If you have a holding tank and you
age the water for 24 hours and heat it to the appropriate temperature
and check the pH for consistency you can do like I do and change 30%
daily. You could change 100% for that matter so long as you match the
parameters of the replacement water with the tank water.
Dave
Kank
Having a tank for a couple of months is an enlightening experience.
This stage is packed with education over a short time period. As a
person enjoys this hobby for much longer, the learning slows to a
lesser pace, but never stops. You have to realize that many of the
people in this NG have had overstocked tanks themselves. Don't be so
quick to say "what I hate about this NG" is that everybody thinks you
can't keep fish in an overstocked tank. These people are, for the
most part, being helpful and presenting evidence gathered from their
own experiences, which for some is a number of years or even decades.
You are welcome to post your experiences and even debate currently
held opinions that you find questionable. This one of the major
purposes accomplished by newsgroups. However, when you do so,please
realize that many of these people may have been precisely where you
are now at some point in their past. Listen to them. You are always
free to make your own decisions and manage your tank(s) as you see
fit, no matter the consensus of any newsgroup or aquaria-related
press. Sometimes it helps to remind oneself that someday you might
very well come to the same time-tested conclusions that they are
offering today. You might prove those conclusions wrong, but it is
more probable that you'll learn the hard way that those beliefs exist
for good reasons. Just like life.
My own experience (only 3+ years) is that salt can be useful in
fighting ich, but perhaps in the future I will use some of the newer
remedies brought up in this very NG or elsewhere. Many aquaria books
are fairly old and the Internet has really allowed enthusiasts to
create a consensus of knowledge on such topics. I place a lot of
faith in what has worked for others. Until if fails for me or falls
short of my previous methods, I'll be happy to try the suggestions of
people on this or other newsgroups. I haven't had ich in a couple of
years, but back when I did I used a commercial remedy that couldn't
quite beat it until I added some salt to the tank (don't remember
what concentrations I allowed at the time, but I probably have it
recorded somewhere). My fish didn't seem to complain about the salt
content and the salt/medication combination whipped my ich problem
very quickly. Still, I don't advocate keeping your freshwater fish in
even medium salt concentrations for long periods. Freshwater fish are
naturally built to exchange water to account for the osmosis between
their bodies and the low-salt water. Increased salt levels upset this
balance and if that concentration gets very high, the fish will simply
be unable to cope, which is doubly risky when a fish is already ill
and weak. These situations are always a question of whether a
treatment is worse to the disease or to the fish. Typically, most
will want to kill the disease before they kill the fish.
I want to add that the others on this newsgroup have very valid,
time-tested points about overcrowding. You can keep an overcrowded
tank alive for some period of time, but you will have more problems,
disease, and shorter life spans than you would in a less crowded tank.
Most any disease in a crowded tank will turn into a tank-wide
epidemic, while those with sparsely populated tanks will find that
diseases are much less communicable. Their fish maintain stronger
immunities and they also create tank conditions which are less ideal
for disease transmission. A highly crowded tank will be much more
*prone* to these problems, whether or not you succeed at keeping your
tank healthy indefinitely. The evidence in this matter is
overwhelmingly in support of fewer fish than you are keeping. I
recall a similar example from a very different subject and I hope no
one minds me sharing this non-aquaria story:
A man made a bit of a news item when his truck turned 300,000 miles or
some mileage similarly impressive. This man was asked his secret and
he proudly claimed that he had not changed the oil in some number of
years (don't recall exact number, but it was a long time). It should
be noted that he did *add* oil fairly often since the truck leaked oil
like any vehicle will with so many miles. This man was quite
convinced that he had single-handedly proven that oil changes were
unnecessary and probably even a conspiracy by the oil companies to
keep sales high. His mistake was in thinking that he represented the
majority of experience. Everyone knows that organic oil breaks down
over time and no longer lubricates effectively. Even synthetic oils
become dirty and need replaced, since dirt reduces the oil's
effectiveness as well. I personally know of about 4 situations where
a person destroyed their engine by not changing their oil. Their oil
became a messy sludge that eventually would not lubricate the engine
at all. That one man feels to this day that he can make an automobile
last forever by not changing the oil, though. He ignores the
overwhelming evidence that oil changes in automobiles are necessary,
though the required frequency of such changes is open to debate. He
instead relies upon his own atypical experience upon which to base his
opinion.
Overcrowded tanks are bad for long-term fish health. Of that there is
no question. However, you are quite within your rights to question
where the line between acceptable and unacceptable population falls.
Is 1-inch per gallon a good rule? Probably, but it is only a
guideline. As others have pointed out, larger fish don't fit into the
rule very well because one 6-inch fish will need more water volume
than six 1-inch fish. A pleco is especially messy for it's size and
that size will worsen the problem as it grows.
You have gotten through the cycling period for your tank. I
congratulate your success and hope that it continues. However, you
have yet to experience many other challenges. You have learned some
very important concepts, such as the suspect nature of adding
mysterious commercial chemicals to a tank. When one does not know the
complete chemical consequence of a product upon their own tank, they
are taking risks that can probably be avoided by using more
predictable and less expensive remedies such as merely raising the
temperature or adding copper solution. Water changes are the most
important concept an aquarist must learn and their importance should
never be underestimated. These are things that you've already picked
up, so you should do very well in the future. As your current fish
grow, I hope that you will be able to lower their numbers by removing
them to other tanks before they lower their own numbers by dying. An
aquarium's chemical balance is much more difficult to maintain with
such high bio loads. You will need to be very vigilant to keep most
of these fish alive/healthy over the next year or more.
Good luck with your fish and thanks for reading,
-Kank
Tom
I guess it'd be fine. Why don't you try it and let me know the result? As for me with
wild Cardinal tetra is always a planted tank with low volume changes. For 100% water
change daily as you're referring to. So far it works great for my discus fish but for
tetra...??? I suppose I'm not that good with them.
Anyone here specialize in Cardinal tetra? How do you do it?
Thank you
Dave wrote:
--
Tom
It's been wonderful reading your article. And since I don't have anything
better to do, I'm glad I've an opportunity. Now if you don't mind I like
to share my finding. Salt works to certain extend and to certain fish. I'm
sure you'd agree that species would be categorize as 'less sensitive
fish'. As you're aware that it increase osmotic pressure and this can lead
to bloated like appearance and death will occur resulted from fluid
retention. It's great that you treated your fish successfully but what's
works for you may not be for others. I think it's our responsibility to
understand the concept before applying theory to all specimens, some of
which may cost as much as buying a new or use car.
Now I wouldn't discredited salt completely. It's great purposes for many
thing in commercial and consumer environment. However, people should be
aware the consequences. One of these day, they're too will have an
opportunity to work with some expensive specimen and they better know damn
well what to put in that water.
Now if you excuse me I like to quote my master phrase. 'Knife will always
be a knife. If you turn it away from you, it'll works for you but if you
turn it toward you, it'll works against you'. I like to consider salt as a
knife.
If you insist of using salt. I'd rather recommend Epsom salt 'Magnesium
Sulfate' as a salt substitute. Your fish can handle much better but Epsom
salt does have some disadvantages as well.
Sorry for another boring post. I suppose to be at trout farm today but
since I woke up too late, this is where I'm at...no life left Users group.
Kank wrote:
--
Ian S
I think part of the problem is that when a beginner goes into the LFS
he may have the 1 inch per gallon rule in mind, but naturally doesn't
appreciate what size the fish will grow to.
He sees all these fish in the tanks. They are all fry, and rarely will
he see an adult fish to compare them with.
So, he thinks..."hmm...I have a 20 gal tank, so I could chuck in 2
angels, 10 cardinal tetras, 16 neon tetras, 6 guppies, and still have
room spare for a couple of those nice-looking catfish".
I've been there too. LFS tanks are an optical illusion.
I've also noticed that LFS storekeepers aren't particularly inquisitive
as to the environment their fish are going to.
--
Ian
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Dave
wrote:
>I think part of the problem is that when a beginner goes into the LFS
>he may have the 1 inch per gallon rule in mind, but naturally doesn't
>appreciate what size the fish will grow to.
>
Exactly Ian, the 1" per gallon rule is meant to be applied to the
eventual size of the average adult fish of the species, not the size
in the lfs.
>I've been there too. LFS tanks are an optical illusion.
Hmm, not sure about this. If anything the tanks make the fish look
bigger.
Dave
leopard
> have, especially when I first started with this hobby twenty years ago.
But I
> don't make it a practice these days and I certainly wouldn't recommend it
to
> someone who hasn't got a reasonable amount of experience at spotting and
dealing
> with the almost inevitable problems that crop up. How do I know problems
are
I'm not recommending that one should keep an overcrowded tank. As a matter
of fact, I wouldn't recommend it myself - either. The problem is I have an
overcrowded tank, have no space to get a bigger one - and still want to keep
all my fishes coz I like them very much. Does that constitute to a
recommendation? I'm just saying it's possible to have such a tank.
> grow to normal sizes and exhibit abnormal behavior from time to time.
Your tank
Growing to normal size. That's one thing I'm still worried. That's why I'm
thinking of getting a larger tank and moving my fishes to the office. I
have space at my office.
> is what, a month or two old? Don't take this the wrong way, but that's
not long
10 weeks.
> live ten years and be 12-18 inches long at maturity can't stay in a ten
gallon
> tank forever... Trust me, if you stick with this hobby, the next year or
so is
I know about the pleco. And am still figuring out a way. I was looking at
my friend's 12 inch pleco. Nice.
> Well, it's definitely my opinion anyway... ;-)
It sounds different when it's "...that's my own opinion..." than shoving it
up someone's throat. If you know what I mean.
leopard
Care to tell me how you get your tetras to spawn? I'm interested to try
that too. But I can't even tell the gender of my fishes... damned...
leopard
could afford it. If only you know where I live, and how we live here...
leopard
something we don't use over here. Or it's just me being ignorant. What is
peat?!
leopard
why it is called a rule. In the first place, by keeping the fishes in
captivity, we're already beating the rules. Like previously mentioned, in
nature, it's more than 1 gallon to an inch. So why the heavy stress on 1
gallon per inch?
leopard
Tom <admin.please...@paps2000.com> wrote in message
news:393AC9BF...@paps2000.com...
> Leopard:
> I bet your fish's will be less stress if you don't use salt.
I don't know but from the behavior - I doubt. Nitrite & nitrate measures 0.
> btw, blackwater or peat moss extract which contained natural organic
hormone is
> far more superior than you realize. My importer, wholesaler and I use it
when I
Perhaps. I did nothing for me or my fishes. But from the posts in this
thread, it seems to be good for breeding - which I'm not doing...
> Color dye, Methylene Blue, won't treat Ich. and adding it to the main tank
will
Sorry, I was refering to that green thing.
Regarding salt, is a tablespoon per 10 gallon considered too much? Coz
that's what I have.
> Sorry for the long post. I got no life today.
Then I must have no life too. :)
leopard
Hmm... I agree with you. The learning curve is definitely exponential. In
the past 10 weeks, I've really learnt much. Like you said, most people
probably started out the same way as I did. Only problem is they've already
forgotten that - and start to speak (type) in an overly projecting fashion.
The purpose of starting this thread is because I was seeking help in this NG
10 weeks ago. This is a highly helpful and educational NG. But at the same
time, it puts people off. I don't have to elaborate, I think you know what
I mean. I learnt a lot from this NG. To be honest, if not for this NG, I
wouldn't have managed to cycle my tank. And I would be having a lot of dead
fishes.
All I wanted to do is share my experience. But sometimes it generates
really "interesting" replies to the thread. If you know what I mean.
Ian S
??? The only LFS tanks I've ever seen have been basically square glass
boxes, so no magnification.
Anyway, what I really meant was that a fry with a load of other fry
often looks relatively big to the unwary beginner. IMHO, without an
adult in the tank to really compare against, it's difficult for a
beginner. Hence the illusion on what the size of fish will be.
leopard
This is what I've been doing. I've been using 1 teaspoon per 10 gallon.
Everybody's seems happy. When I remove 25% of the water, I add 1/4 of a
teaspoon. No one's been complaining. And I'm thinking of stopping this
practise. Perhaps after a few weeks, I'll be back to tell "forget about
salt"! Who knows. *shrug* :)
Dave
>Regarding salt, is a tablespoon per 10 gallon considered too much? Coz
>that's what I have.
>
These are 'freshwater' fish right? Is there some specific reason that
you are adding salt?
Dave
Dave
>I mean. I learnt a lot from this NG. To be honest, if not for this NG, I
>wouldn't have managed to cycle my tank. And I would be having a lot of dead
>fishes.
>
I find it funny that you accept advice from this newsgroup about
cycling but when told what the limitations are on fish per gallon you
feel you are being preached to and you don't appreciate it. If you
have been reading this NG for 10 weeks then you probably knew about
the 1" per gallon guideline adopted by most fishkeepers and chose to
ignore it. You say you wish you had a larger tank but you don't and
you like your fish and don't want to give any up. What you are really
saying is that you knew 18" of fish in a 20 gallon tank is way too
much now and will only get worse IF they grow, but you didn't care and
bought the fish anyways. Somehow your needs and desires have more
importance than common sense.
BTW most people leave 1/2" air space at the top, have 1.5" of gravel
and don't measure inner dimensions of the tank so a 20X10X12 tank is
reduced to 19.5X9.5X9.75 tank which is 7.8 gallons. Good luck, you
might want to check out this link
www.petsolutions.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/fmeds.htm?L+petsolutions+rmiu9436+960230244
Dave
Mimi W. Tzeng
:I'm not recommending that one should keep an overcrowded tank. As a matter
:of fact, I wouldn't recommend it myself - either. The problem is I have an
:overcrowded tank, have no space to get a bigger one - and still want to keep
:all my fishes coz I like them very much. Does that constitute to a
:recommendation? I'm just saying it's possible to have such a tank.
A couple comments on this whole thread...
1. If you haven't got the money or space to properly keep a pet, then in
my opinion you shouldn't've got that pet to begin with. If you have it
now, you should find a better home where it can be happy, regardless of
whether that would make you happy.
2. I had a twenty gallon with nearly 30 inches of fish in it that was
run on an undergravel filter with no powerheads. It worked great for several
months, and all of the fish were amazingly healthy and happy. However, to
keep up with the accumulated gunk in the gravel, I was eventually siphoning
the gravel while doing 50% water changes once a week. And the nitrates were
always through the roof (but that didn't seem to bother the fish at all).
No diseases, no deaths, everyone grew well. I was amazed.
(Then I got a 44-gallon, put all my fish in it, and that's when I
started having fish deaths...go figure).
For your tank, I would recommend that you get some better filtration,
as a single corner filter seems even less beneficial than an UGF without
powerheads. The hang-on-the-back types are relatively cheap and easy to
install without disrupting the tank. Aquaclear seems to be the most highly
recommended in these groups. (I also once had a ten gallon with a Whisper
filter - didn't even need extra air, as the current going back in was
sufficient). You might also want to add some cheap, easy plants as someone
else suggested, as that will help with the water conditions. I have a
bunch of floating Elodea that I got dirt cheap, and it doesn't require any
extra care to grow fast and well.
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orthodo...@nospamnetscape.com
to the general assembly:
v ery well written. as a side note, my tank is slightly over stocked.
however I keep it heavely stocked with plants and do 20-30 % water
changes. plus i have a aquaclear 300 on my 20 long. result, due to
higher filtration and heavy foliage i'm able to keep a "few" extra
fish. for my 20 that is about 3 or 4 fish. NOT more. also the majority
of my fish are tetras, they spawn regurlaly (sp???) and are very fun
to watch. I have yet to have any illness (knock on wood) but remember
i'm still following a approximation of the 1" per gallon rule.
orthodo...@nospamnetscape.com
the general assembly:
first off sexing is always a problem, for instance: accoriding to my
Dr. Axelrods atlas bleeding heart tetras can be sexed by the fact that
the males top fin is at a sharper incline where as the females is
rounder. translation you gotta guess. what i do is feed fresh food, i
buy beef heart add water and put it in the blender to get it smaller.
then do a water change with water about 76-78 degrees F. i do this
once a month. my fish go into spawning dances every time. oh and
plants help too. gives them a place to do there thing in privacy
Stuart Teo
overstocked.
> feel you are being preached to and you don't appreciate it. If you
[snip]
> bought the fish anyways. Somehow your needs and desires have more
> importance than common sense.
Regarding calculation of water volume, I've already taken the
considerations. My tank has 10 gallons of _water_.
leopard
supposed to keep ich away. Also, in the natural environment - there's
supposed to be low concentration of NaCl.
Dave <dclu...@home.com> wrote in message news:393bce76.764490803@news...
Tom
Might want to search through dejanews if you're interested.
Peat's from what I've read in the book has mention allots about disease
prevention by using peat's extract. Peat's has natural animal hormone regarded
as an anabolic enhancer which will help fish defend off parasite by harden its
scale and thickening of skin tissue. One of my book even printed mineral and
vitamin composite of peat's moss. It's extremely valuable resources in fish
keeping, especially SA and Asia specimen. I've actually cured Hexamita disease
on my discus by using peat's filtered water and increase temp alone...which is
very rare I might add.
leopard wrote:
--
Tom
You should be happy to what you got. That's what fish keeping is all about. I'm
a pro-overloading tank. This is the best way to learn about fish keeping and
this is what fish keeping is all about. Just imagine your family, friend or
neighbor stand in front of it and say "WOW! how could you possibly have that
much fish in there living and thriving".
More than 4 yr. ago I used to have a 10 gal. in my bed room filtered by an
overhead w/d and Mag500 '500+gph' pump. I could swear I put only about 50
cichlids in there but when I change to 60 gal, I've counted 82 fish and most of
them are 2-4" long. Moving them to 60 gal isn't from tank spaces but rather the
darn noise generated by Mag pump. I was a full-time student then and it isn't a
healthy choice.
leopard wrote:
--
leopard
Tom <not4...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:393E2646...@hotmail.com...
Dave
>Holy shit! 50 fishes in a 10 gallon tank! How did you do that?!
>
Yeah, did you stack they lengthwise?
Stuart, don't take his post as a good recommendation. What if
someone posts who says they left a fully stocked tank for 3 months
while on holidays and when they returned all the fish lived? Would
you decide that neglect was a good plan for tank maintenance? It's
your tank, stock it as you will. Only your fish will suffer, not
mine.
Dave
Rikkochet
>>
>
>Yeah, did you stack they lengthwise?
>
> Stuart, don't take his post as a good recommendation. What if
>someone posts who says they left a fully stocked tank for 3 months
>while on holidays and when they returned all the fish lived? Would
>you decide that neglect was a good plan for tank maintenance? It's
>your tank, stock it as you will. Only your fish will suffer, not
>mine.
50 fish in a 10 gallon tank is to any fish in an aquababy. And ask
your local LFS how many aquababy fish, snails and plants they replace
a day.
leopard
animal. Will other things like live sea monkeys do?