response to cetaman
Jefdolfin
> Jeff made some mistaken statements and some >interesting comments.
Jefdolfin:
I would like to acknowledge that many people express their opinion over the
a.a.d., and that some choose to support their arguments with published
references that readers can refer to in order to determine for them selves the
validity of any point or theory made. Sometimes, however, we are asked to
believe in the personal accounts of those who have, or claim to have, worked
with dolphins or who are currently working with dolphins. Many things have
happened in dolphindom that are only detailed by personal accounts of those who
were involved, this goes for the accounts of researchers, stories of captive
care, stories of dolphin catching, and the activitites of animal rights
activists. It is with this in mind that I encourage all a.a.d. readers to view
with skeptisism personal accounts that are not backed up with references that
can be varified through traditional means. My-self included.
With that I begin my response to Ken LaVasseur.
I had stated:
>"Given the fact that some ARA's have actually killed dolphins (Dr. Jay
>Sweeney's dolphins in Tahiti) under the assumption of better off dead than
>in captivity;
Cetaman asks:
> Your claim that ARAs somehow caused the death of the dolphins at Sweeney's
>facility in Tahiti is new to me. Can you provide any background on that
>claim?
> Did anyone claim credit for the deaths? Where did you get the statement
>"Better off dead"?
I looked through my files to try and find the original press clipping that I
had seen, but was unable to find it. Here is how this story (gossip) goes
according to how I recollect it (somebody with first hand knowledge please
correct me if I am wrong): Before Dr. Sweeney opened his facility in Tahiti,
just after he caught his dolphins, an animal activist snuck into the enclosure
and fed the dolphins poisoned fish which killed six dolphins. The perpatrator
was caught and arrested in Tahiti and sentened to two years in prison. The
statement: better off dead than in captivity was given by the perpatrator upon
arrest as his justification.
Cetaman:
> You have it completely wrong about the release of dolphins from Herman's
>facility twenty plus years ago.
Do I? Were you a part of the plot that lead to the demise of these two
dolphins?
Cetaman corrects my mistake (which I admit to making):
>First, it happened in 1977 not 1982
Cetaman:
>Second, I have it on good authority (I was there) that {snip}
You were there? Were you a part of the plot to illegally release these two
dolphins.
Cetaman:
>Third, for yours and the group's information, Puka and Kea were Pre Act
{clip}
> Herman made a professional mistake and lost his
>NSF funding and was censured by the University of >Hawaii. Within months
Herman had us feeding the >dolphins bad fish because he could not afford to
>have us throw it away anymore. The pump broke and >was not repaired for
months. We did our best to help the >dolphins but the conditions at the lab
kept getting
>worse even after the pump was replaced. The situation >became life
threatening to the dolphins. The dolphins >were released after a streamlined
prerelease program.
You claim that the dolphins were released do to abusive conditions and that Lou
Herman was held acountable, yet the perpatrators who commited this crime were
captured and convicted in a court of law. If the standards that you claimed to
have existed are indeed the facts then how come those people went to jail. The
kid nappers had their chance in court to prove those allegation of abuse but
could not and were convicted. Were you one of the people who were jailed for
kid napping and killing these dolphins?
You claim that the dolphins were released in a stream lined release project,
then why were the dolphins removed under cloke of darkness in the dead of
night secretly without Dr. Lou Hermans Kwoledge?
Cetaman:
>The dolphins demonstrated the ability to capture live fish >as part of that
program.
{snip}
What Program? Can you produce the documentation for this release program,
acclimation procuedures, organized follow up plans?
These dolphins were stolen in the middle of night and thrown into the Pacific.
Did Kea and Puka ever eat live fish in their captive eclosure before the time
of their abduction and release?
As far as any claims made by the participants who were involved with this
illegal act, why should we believe any of their accounts or alledged
observations?
> It became somewhat of a joke when DiskJockeys would
>report that the dead dolphins were seen swimming under Koko Marina bridge
{clip}
And I am sure that these sightings were made by no less than a marine mammal
expert, or a conspirator in the plot that kid napped these dolphins, or an
informed tourist?
> One and a half years later Puka was seen with a baby >dolphin off of Laau
point on Molokai. At the same time >Kea was seen off of {clip}. However, no
pictures were >taken so we have to trust those who made and reported >the
sitings
No pictures were taken, what a suprise. If the observer ment to document the
existance of these dolphins then why are there no pictures of the only Atlantic
Bottlenose dolphins living near Waikiki. How would an un-informed observer
know what they were looking at, and why should we believe potential criminals?
> (There is also your boss Moby's favorite tactic of
>releasing recently captured dolphins that had taken a >turn for the worse so
>that their death would not be credited against his permits
My boss Moby that bad guy, who after Lou lost his dolphins to the lunacy of
mis-guided want to be animal rights advocates, gave to Dr. Herman, for free,
two new dolphins so that Dr. Herman could continue with his research.
Jefd...@aol.com
MLO/MAP
The views and opinions expressed here are my own and not neccessarily those of
MLO/MAP.
Jefdolfin
Cetaman
The name is Kenneth W. LeVasseur. Mahalo. The spelling is important if
searches are done.
We will accept your comment about Tahiti for now. Should you or I come up
with any new information, we should post it here.
You certainly sound confident that Puka and Kea died at the hands of those
who released them. Were you there in 1977? Do you have any first hand
information on the subject? Have you found any information in any source that
can be cited for others to read on the subject?
Yes, I was one of those who developed the plan to release Puka and Kea due
to the abusive situation Lou Herman was subjecting them to. Lou's Lab was
investigated for compliance in order to get the new dolphins Phoenix and
Akeaakamai. The NMFS found 41 major violations. They are available from NMFS.
Keyword Dr. Louis Herman. BTW, Lou Herman made many comments about how
expensive the new dolphins were. It is very interesting that you say Moby gave
them to him for free. But then, it is Lou Herman speaking.
As I have been told that the release of Puka and Kea in 1977 was the first
documented Animal Liberation in the USA, I guess that makes me, the first
documented dolphin liberator in the USA. Actually, I do not know about this as
I have not researched it. But, if I did research it, you could be pretty
confident that what I was telling you was true.
As for my conviction and jail time, I have not even been fingerprinted and
you can investigate that until you turn blue because it is a fact. As much as
I was convicted of dolphin liberation, I do wear the badge with pride and I
have never served any jail or prison time under any condition and you can
investigate that until you turn red.
However, I did appeal the conviction because I was denied the use of the
choice of evils defense. The judge refused to allow anything into court unless
it had to do with theft. The Intermediate Court of Appeals said that the
Animal Welfare Act (AWA) covered dolphins at the time of the release. In fact
of law the AWA did not even propose to cover dolphins until forty five (45)
days after the release of Puka and Kea. If fact it can be said that the
complete lack of legal protection for Puka and Kea at the time of their release
stimulated the coverage. (An interesting aside, is that during the Sugarloaf
Release fallout it was stated that since Sugar was a preact dolphin, no one
could do anything regarding her situation at the sanctuary. Was Sugar even
covered by the AWA?)
With your disclaimer in the first paragraph of your post taken into
consideration, a very reliable historian interviewed the personal secretary of
the Govenor of the State of Hawaii. The secretary said that someone from the
Pentagon called the Govenor (Arioshi at the time) and told him to convict me
with a jail term. Wait, wait, it gets better. The judge that actualy let me
off from jail time was beaten bloody in Haliewa and eventually killed after he
was thrown off of a balcony in Las Vegas during a vacation.
Now I do have first hand knowledge of the following. The justice that
wrote the opinion to uphold my conviction and knowingly made the legal error
about the AWA covering Puka and Kea was nominated and supported for Hawaii
Supreme Court Chief Justice by the Advertiser - a major Honolulu Newspaper -
after William Richardson retired. I wrote a letter to the editor making my
points and stating that I would take William Padgett to the Commission on
Judicial Discipline and testify at his Senate confirmation hearing if he
persisted in his nomination. The letter was never published, but Padgett
withdrew his nomination the next day and right after a full front page
nomination story too. You can investigate this until you turn white and you
will find that what I am saying is true.
Now that you are red, white and blue (and so soon after July 4th), please
consider that we were the security for the lab. We really would keep records
of our release protocol for Lou to discover?!? Do remember that this was the
first release attempt in the USA (1977) and under clandestine conditions at
that.
Finally, for this post anyway, the release actually took place one hour
before daylight so that Puka and Kea would be able to cross modally calibrate
their echolocation system by realizing that thay would not be able to see the
following night. Furthermore, those who sited the dolphins after the release
were closely associated with the lab but not involved in the release to any
extent. They have been involved in many dolphin observation research projects
but were on their own time when the sitings occurred.
If I have missed anything, please remind me. But, please do so after you
reread my original post, you seemed confused in your response.
For the record, I am willing to do a stand down and go back to a more
neutrally toned discussion on this and other important subjects.
Aloha,
Ken LeVasseur
Cet...@aol.com
Consultant
Dolphin Mental Abilities and Captivity Issues
http://whales.magna.com.au/POLICIES/levasseur
Cetaman
Caught this response by Doug Cartlidge in the Sea World discussion. I
thought it had bearing on the subject.
jefd...@aol.com (Jefdolfin) wrote:
> >"Given the fact that some ARA's have actually killed dolphins (Dr. Jay
>>Sweeney's dolphins in Tahiti) under the assumption of better off dead than
>>in captivity;
>I looked through my files to try and find the original press clipping that I
>had seen, but was unable to find it. Here is how this story (gossip) goes
>according to how I recollect it (somebody with first hand knowledge please
>correct me if I am wrong): Before Dr. Sweeney opened his facility in Tahiti,
>just after he caught his dolphins, an animal activist snuck into the enclosure
>and fed the dolphins poisoned fish which killed six dolphins. The perpatrator
>was caught and arrested in Tahiti and sentened to two years in prison. The
>statement: better off dead than in captivity was given by the perpatrator
upon
>arrest as his justification.
...YOU NEED TO PASS THIS *INFORMATION* TO NMFS, THEY HAVE THE
DOLPHINS LISTED AS ESCAPED...MAYBE THEY DON'T READ THE SAME
NEWSPAPERS AS YOU....Regards Doug Cartlidge
European Cetacean Organisation
7 Meadway Court
The Boulevard
Worthing, BN13 1PN
England
Phone/fax: +44 1903 241 264
Email: do...@mistral.co.uk
Homepage: http://www3.mistral.co.uk/dougc/
Lord Angel
Cetaman replied to Jefdolfin about his experiene:
>
> Yes, I was one of those who developed the plan to release Puka and Kea due
> to the abusive situation Lou Herman was subjecting them to.
<SNIP>
>
> As for my conviction and jail time, I have not even been fingerprinted and
> you can investigate that until you turn blue because it is a fact. As much as
> I was convicted of dolphin liberation, I do wear the badge with pride and I
> have never served any jail or prison time under any condition and you can
> investigate that until you turn red.
Ouch! Why would you want to do a release project trying to free the
dolphin without telling the captivity? You now remind me of that kid who
tried freeing his pet tiger from a zoo in that movie "There is a Zebra
in The Kitchen". That is not a good idea to do it. I do not want to see
you in prison for doing those kind of crimes.
> The judge who actualy let me
> off from jail time was beaten bloody in Haliewa and eventually killed after he
> was thrown off of a balcony in Las Vegas during a vacation.
By the people who was in favor in captivity? Who done it?
Also Cetaman said:
> The NMFS found 41 major violations.
Why didn't you tell it to the government? You could have complained to
the government instead of trying to free those animals. The government
could have helped and forced that captivity (if it was really a bad one)
out of business.
Please do not do that kind of project again. I do not want to see you
in jail.
>
> Aloha,
> Ken LeVasseur
> Cet...@aol.com
> Consultant
> Dolphin Mental Abilities and Captivity Issues
> http://whales.magna.com.au/POLICIES/levasseur
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Delete NOSPAM and I do not work for TOTS!
Wendy Jo
<KRISHNA-OR...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> The NMFS found 41 major violations.
>
> Why didn't you tell it to the government?
NMFS IS the government ;-)
WJ
DolphRider
another chance at survival. When dolphins are taken in, if they do not repond
to eating dead fish with a day or two, they are released, if that is a turn for
the worst, it certainly isnt for the dolphins, only for the one catching them.
Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <199807160515...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
I have a bit different info on the feeding process of just caught dolphins.
Usually trainers put one old-captured dolphin, who knows how to eat the dead
fish, to the pool with new-caught ones. To show them how to eat and to "play"
with dolphin's competition feelings. Usually it helps and they start to eat
the dead fish, too. But if there are no results in 4..6 days (critical time
for dolphins), trainers move those, who still doesn't eat, to small pools and
feed them forcefully, pushing fish in the mouth, until dolphins will start to
eat themselves. Releasing the dolphin who doesn't want to eat dead fish for
several days? Never heard about it, dolphins are too expensive to catch to
release them so easy.
P.S. This is a first-hand info, from my own experience (well, except that
forceful feeding).
Dolphin.
- --
URL: http://www.psynet.net/dolphin __
Mail: Dol...@psynet.net / (
ICQ: 6615461 . ----------'---`--...__
/ ~~--._
Dolphin - Mortal /~~~ ~ ~-/~~/
Pod - Eternal! \__________ __ _____.......-----------\ _\
\\ (_
`~~~`
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Doug Cartlidge
>"A turn for the worst" in your words, but in other-more experienced minds
>another chance at survival. When dolphins are taken in, if they do not repond
>to eating dead fish with a day or two, they are released, if that is a turn for
>the worst, it certainly isnt for the dolphins, only for the one catching them.
If you examine the Marine mammal Inventory (MMI) you will see your
statement is not accurate. Take the last large capture operations by
Sea World, author document # 155 for the Charlotte Harbour/Indian
River/Tarpon Springs captures.
Over 55 dolphins were captured 30 were released, some as long as 3
months after capture. Some persished from causes such as shock,
fractured skull, heart rupture. The *quickest* release was around 3
weeks after capture. So if they were not eating I think you will
admit...force feeding WAS employed...as is the norm for newly captured
animals who do not eat on their own.
Let us also examine the so called *benefits* to the released animals.
They have been forceably captured, force fed, exposed to human
handling which is rough to say the least, especially when the animal
fights from fear. They have been exposed to human *contamination* and
infection. They are traumatised and have not *adapted*....
With all the above in mind what do good old SEA WORLD do? They DUMP
them and run...nice guys!! What monitoring did they undertake? How did
they gauge the survival of the released animals. Were they accepted
back into their pod? Did captivity damage them? All this valuable
research was NOT undertaken....GREAT advertisement for *captive
research*.
Lord Angel
Wendy Jo told me:
>
> NMFS IS the government ;-)
Oops! Sorry about that. <GRIN> Why didn't they do something about it
then. They should have gotten rid of that center in a heartbeat if it
was that bad. There is something wrong with them!
>
> WJ
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Delete NOSPAM!
Cuvein
>in jail.
At least not that way. There are more legal ways to free dolphins. Remember
what Obi-Wan said, "There are alternitives to fighting."
Doug (Cuv...@aol.com)
"You have always been here." -Koch, Vorlon ambassador to Babylon 5
Cetaman
You two commented,
> Please do not do that kind of project again. I do not want to see you
>>in jail.
>
>At least not that way. There are more legal ways to free dolphins.
Mahalo for the interest in my captivity Lord. The situation at Kewalo Basin in
1977 can not be replicated. Steve Sipman and I were forced by lawful, moral
concerns to act as we did. We would act in a similar manner again if somehow
the clock was turned back. Please remember that this was the first action of
this nature taken in the USA - or so I am told. Twenty-twenty hindsight is
wonderful, but what has been expressed so far has is not based on accurate
information from 1977. Please remember also that there were no laws protecting
dolphins at the time of the release in 1977. These were Pre-Act dolphins.
Their abuse was grandfathered into the MMPA.
We developed a common sense streamlined release program and addressed
every main concern that is today standard practice in a release program. What
followed verified the accuracy of our forethought. The entire propaganda
program Herman built around the lie that the dolphins died immediately upon
release flies in the face of basic knowledge about dolphins.
If we were to make any change in our actions it would have been to post
release behavior and dealt almost exclusively with Herman's lie about the
dolphins dying.
Jefdolfin
I love, I just can't let this dead dog lie (no pun intended).
>The entire propaganda
>program Herman built around the lie that the dolphins died immediately upon
>release flies in the face of basic knowledge about dolphins.
>
>
What, to me, seems to fly in the face of basic knowlege about dolphins is how
somebody could rationalize the release of two dolphins who came from the
shallow, protected, calm, relatively shark free, waters of the Mississippi
Sound in the Gulf of Mexico and release them into the deep, un-protected, and
totally foreign (to those dolphins) waters of the Pacific Ocean in Hawaii. The
habitat of these animals is shallow, sandy bottom, protected coastal waters;
not the deep, volcanic and rocky, rough and tumble swells of the offshore
waters of Hawii. The difference between where these dolphins came from and
where they were placed in the Pacific is as different as night and day.
Given this, any rational person must assume that these dolphins must have
perished in waters totally foreign to them; and since you have no photographic
evidance to refute this, I guess we are stuck at an impass at which I must
acknowledge your account of this story as you feel it happened.
Lord Angel
Cetaman replied to both Cuvein and I:
>
> Mahalo for the interest in my captivity Lord. The situation at Kewalo Basin in
> 1977 can not be replicated.
The captive place in Hawaii? Commit violations? What kind of
violations? Kewalo Basin has been having a good reputation by allowing
people from University of Hawaii to study about them. I would be
surprised to see that they made some violations.
> Steve Sipman and I were forced by lawful, moral
> concerns to act as we did.
Under what law or morals?
> Please remember also that there were no laws protecting
> dolphins at the time of the release in 1977. These were Pre-Act dolphins.
> Their abuse was grandfathered into the MMPA.
So what you are saying is that the captive industry can do anything
they want to the dolphins since they were not protected by law during
the day of the release? YIPE!
> We developed a common sense streamlined release program and addressed
> every main concern that is today standard practice in a release program. What
> followed verified the accuracy of our forethought.
So your job is to release dolphins out of captivity without the
captivity's permission. Am i correcct?
>
> If we were to make any change in our actions it would have been to post
> release behavior and dealt almost exclusively with Herman's lie about the
> dolphins dying.
Though how can you prove that the dolphins did not die during the
release? Did they die or didn't they?
>
> Aloha,
> Ken LeVasseur
> Cet...@aol.com
> Consultant
> Dolphin Mental Abilities and Captivity Issues
> http://whales.magna.com.au/POLICIES/levasseur
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Cetaman
It is true that I must also give admiration and respect for your passion
and devotion to dolphins and when I find a dead dog, I am obliged to clean it
up. I was once in your shoes. We have more in common than we have
differences. You have the right to live through your current experience and
all I can do is provide you and others with information and advice that I have
learned over the last twenty-five years.
One thing you should think about regarding the release in 1977, we did the
release for the dolphins - not for people. Steve and I had to be satisfied
that what we were doing was the right thing under the circumstances. We only
had to satisfy ourselves. This is still true today. I know what the truth is
and it is up to others to deal with that. I will also help those who want to
know the truth.
It is to be expected that some will opportunistically take advantage of
any weak point found. That is the nature of debate and this is a discussion
group. (Fortunately for me, I really enjoy debate and dolphin discussion. I
only wish I had more time for it.) Finding a weak point does not mean that an
argument is true or false. It simply means that there is a weak point. If
Steve and I had intended the release to be for people instead of for the
dolphins, you can rest assured we would have had pictures and evidence out the
yin-yang. The weak point you mention of not having pictures was not important
to us and still is not important. In hindsight, it is obvious that Herman
would just lie again and deny the evidence as he has all along starting with
the Waimea Bay sighting. And we can prove Waimea Bay without a shadow of a
doubt.
With all due respect, your account of the environment of the capture and
release sites is less than accurate. It does make your point well, but the
differences are not as significant as you make them. Most obviously, the
dolphins were from Florida, not Mississippi. Sorry, but it is true. You would
be correct to a certain extent because both areas have continental shelf which
is different from the Pacific Basin. However, the difference is tempered by
scale. The ocean does not drop off like a platteau here in Hawaii, it gently
slopes down more like foothills to a mountain range - and there are hundreds of
square miles of shallow water. I am calling shallow water shallow like the
continental shelf. The difference between the waters of Hawaii and Florida is
more like the difference in day between Florida and Maine - not night and day.
Atlantic dolphins (specifically Tuffy) have demonstrated the abilitiy to dive
to 1000 feet. The mechanics of this ability are clearly understood and
documanted.
The dolphins were not easy prey for sharks. Dolphins rarely have shark
scars in Hawaii. Lou Herman's whale research crew made a video that showed two
dolphins swimming with sharks, including a very big Tiger Shark, and whales.
The crew swam with them for 3 hours. There was no sign of aggression. In
Hawaii, there are so many small fish, sharks do not need to risk their life
attacking dolphins. It is safe in Hawaii for wild dolphins. If anything,
sharks eat dead dolphins and whales. They keep the ocean clean that way.
Florida has more of a shark threat than Hawaii. Kea had shark scars that made
her easily identifiable and she was from Florida.
About 25 US Navy Atlantic dolpins have escaped in Hawaii waters since 1960
and no Atlantic dolphins have ever beached anywhere in Hawaii. (The Navy even
had to put Anti-Foraging Devices on the rostrums of some of their dolphins to
keep them from leaving.) In 1977, no dolphin experts thought that released
dolphins would die, no one ever wrote about it either. We asked other dolphin
experts and they told us about the Navy dolphins and said no problem.
We had put live fish in the dolphins tank for two months before the
release and the dolphins had no problem catching and eating them. In fact Kea
showed classic single dolphin feeding behavior when we saw her at sun-up after
the release.
As for other's claims that the dolphins would not be adopted by Pacific
dolphins. This is in fact a lie. Ron Antinoja positively identified Puka and
Kea at Waimea Bay 3 days after the release and they were with a big male
Pacific dolphin. That was when Lou Herman made up the lie about the dolphins
dying. He forced Ron Antinoja to make a retraction and say the dolphins had
died. But, everyone knew that the dolphins were alive and doing well. One
month after the release Kea was seen under the bridge at Koko Marina and then
surfing at Portlock. It was a joke. Disk Jockeys on radio would say the dead
dolphins were seen swimming here and there.
A rational person would consider facts before making a decision or coming
to a conclusion. And if there is no urgency in making the decision or
conclusion, a rational person usually keeps on gathering information and defers
any rash generalizations until there is some good evidence collected.
(Remember the term, "The jury is still out on that one.")
Apparently, you are still gathering information on the captivity issue
otherwise you would have already joined the ranks of former dolphin trainers
who are now anti-captive activists. Have you had a chance to read my three
papers on dolphins? (Captivity issue, dolphin mental abilities, and a
win-win-win proposed solution to the captivity issue.) There is certainly a
lot of food for thought there. They are at the web site below my signature.
My advice to you and other dolphin trainers would be to not take too long
making your decision. The longer you take to come to the conclusion that
captivity is bad for dolphins, the more pissed-off you will be at yourself when
you finally realize the truth.
Cetaman
You asked, "Under what law or morals?"
Lawful means that what one does is legal. It does not mean that there is
a law made to do it. The courts violated my rights to justice in convicting me
and upholding my conviction. The appeals court and specifically Justice
Padgett, who wrote the opinion, ignored facts of law in order to uphold my
conviction. But then, my case was a very political case.
There is a moral law called a "Good Samaritan" (sp?) law. In some
jurisdictions it has been made into social law. It is now part of the Hawaii
Revised Statutes. A "good samaritan" must act to relieve suffering and render
aid if it is within their capacity.
Yes, the captive industry can do whatever they want to Pre-Act dolphins -
those dolphins caught before 1973 when the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA)
went into effect. The case of Sugar at Sugarloaf Dolphin Sanctuary raises the
point. Before she died, it was claimed that no laws covered her because she
was a Pre-Act dolphin.
My job was to look out after the best interests of the dolphins under my
care. Before the release, Lou Herman told me specifically "to look out for
the best interests of the dolphins." I did so. Lou Herman got upset because
he thought that I should look out for the best interests of the University of
Hawaii and they would look out for the dolphins. But, he never said that until
after the release and he never indicated anything of the sort before the
release. I did not need my Lou Herman's permission to release the dolphins. I
had already been given my orders and the danger to the dolphins came from Lou
Herman's actions.
The dolphins lived at least 1.5 years after the release when both of them
were positively identified by reliable dolphin observers. Puka even had a 3
foot baby dolphin with her. I know of no other sightings after that. I am
satisfied that the dolphins survived as well as can be expected from the most
advanced dolphin release program currently available.
Lord Angel
Cetaman answered:
> There is a moral law called a "Good Samaritan" (sp?) law. In some
> jurisdictions it has been made into social law. It is now part of the Hawaii
> Revised Statutes. A "good samaritan" must act to relieve suffering and render
> aid if it is within their capacity.
How did you know that the dolphins were suffering? Where there any
verbal or non-verbal signals or distress?
>
> Yes, the captive industry can do whatever they want to Pre-Act dolphins -
> those dolphins caught before 1973 when the Marine Mammal Protection Act (MMPA)
> went into effect. The case of Sugar at Sugarloaf Dolphin Sanctuary raises the
> point. Before she died, it was claimed that no laws covered her because she
> was a Pre-Act dolphin.
Please explain the case of Sugar. Never heard of it. Was captivity that
bad when the MMPA was not in effect (Ex. Forced to preform, small tanks,
little food, etc.)?
>
> My job was to look out after the best interests of the dolphins under my
> care. Before the release, Lou Herman told me specifically "to look out for
> the best interests of the dolphins." I did so. Lou Herman got upset because
> he thought that I should look out for the best interests of the University of
> Hawaii and they would look out for the dolphins. But, he never said that until
> after the release and he never indicated anything of the sort before the
> release. I did not need my Lou Herman's permission to release the dolphins. I
> had already been given my orders and the danger to the dolphins came from Lou
> Herman's actions.
Is Lou Herman the owner of Kawalo Basin?
>
> The dolphins lived at least 1.5 years after the release when both of them
> were positively identified by reliable dolphin observers. Puka even had a 3
> foot baby dolphin with her. I know of no other sightings after that. I am
> satisfied that the dolphins survived as well as can be expected from the most
> advanced dolphin release program currently available.
That's great. Now that proves that dolphins do live after being
released into captivity.
>
> Aloha,
> Ken LeVasseur
> Cet...@aol.com
> Consultant
> Dolphin Mental Abilities and Captivity Issues
> http://whales.magna.com.au/POLICIES/levasseur
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Delete NOSPAM
P.S. I hope you understand what I am trying to say to you, or I
understand what you are trying to say to me. If not, please explain
where the confusion is by post. Thanks! :)
Cetaman
The dolphins lived in the same laboratory where I was a caretaker /
security when I was not running experiments or otherwise helping out. I lived
there for two years - fifteen feet from Puka and about 35 feet from Kea. The
dolphins were isolated in different tanks, a lab design made illegal under the
MMPA. In that time I became very close to Puka and after a year became
somewhat close to Kea (after I figured out why she kept beating people). When
there is no verbal form of communication one must depend on non-verbal
communication, an option you noted.
A careful observer will notice that humans use extensive non-verbal
communication to make our points and achieve our goals. Dolphins are quite
capable of similar behavior. Puka was in fact an excellent non-verbal
communicator. (This may possibly be due to the fact that she was one of the
two dolphins used in Batteau's whistle / word program developed for the US
Navy. Yes, Puka was a US Navy dolphin on loan to Herman's lab.) Puka and Kea
indicated through non-verbal behavior that they were distressed by their
circumstances at Kewalo Basin - each for very different reasons. There was
also the objective type of evidence, like the bad fish we were required to feed
the dolphins just prior to the release, etc., that entered into the equation of
our release decision.
Sugar was a PreAct dolphin at Sugarloaf Dolphin Sanctuary during the
release last year. When many seriously objected to the release, the question
was raised whether NMFS or the Dept. of Agriculture could take Sugar away from
Sugarloaf. Supposedly, Sugar was protected under the Animal Welfare Act (AWA)
because of the release of Puka and Kea. (My conviction was upheld because
dolphins like Sugar were supposedly covered by the AWA.) The government
response to those who wanted Sugar taken away from Sugarloaf was that no law
protected Sugar because she was PreAct. Anyone who has new or different
information on this should post it to this newsgroup. I, for one, would be
interested.
Lou Herman is the Principal Investigator at the Kewalo Basin Lab, now
called KBMML (Kewalo Basin Marine Mammal Laboratory).
As much as I may appreciate your enthusiasm when you say,
"That's great. Now that proves that dolphins do live after being released into
captivity.",
many would consider you premature when you use the word "proves". Even though
photos, and other forms of evidence, can be doctored, most people still require
some form of objective verification - rather than a professional opinion - to
prove a claim. This is especially true when the subject is as political as the
release of dolphins.
Lord Angel
Here is what Cetaman wrote:
>
> The dolphins lived in the same laboratory where I was a caretaker /
> security when I was not running experiments or otherwise helping out. I lived
> there for two years - fifteen feet from Puka and about 35 feet from Kea. The
> dolphins were isolated in different tanks, a lab design made illegal under the
> MMPA. In that time I became very close to Puka and after a year became
> somewhat close to Kea (after I figured out why she kept beating people). When
> there is no verbal form of communication one must depend on non-verbal
> communication, an option you noted.
Why were they isolated? I agree with you that it is not a good idea to
isolate dolphins in seperate tanks. Dolphins need to communicate with
each other. What you said about the dolphin beating people is a good
idea of non-verbal communication. Looks like that he/she did not want to
be interacted with. That is now a good idea to release that dolphin.
> As much as I may appreciate your enthusiasm when you say,
>
> "That's great. Now that proves that dolphins do live after being released into
> captivity.",
>
> many would consider you premature when you use the word "proves". Even though
> photos, and other forms of evidence, can be doctored, most people still require
> some form of objective verification - rather than a professional opinion - to
> prove a claim. This is especially true when the subject is as political as the
> release of dolphins.
Please define objective. Photos and videos should be the best form of
evidence since you can see it "right there".
>
> Aloha,
> Ken LeVasseur
> Cet...@aol.com
> Consultant
> Dolphin Mental Abilities and Captivity Issues
> http://whales.magna.com.au/POLICIES/levasseur
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Cetaman
The dolphins were kept isolated because Herman was allowed to do so.
Herman could run two experiments with two dolphins at the same time in two
seperate tanks. The dolphins were not protected by regulations requiring
dolphins to be kept with companions. The dolphins were PreAct.
Beating people is only a small subset of non-verbal communication. It
took me about a year to find out why Kea was beating people. After that she
did not beat people anymore. Kea actually wanted people to interact with her
very much, that was part of her frustration.
The word objective means having existence or a state in reality
independent of the mind or a person's interpretation. Many consider photos to
be objective evidence, but photos can be altered. Photo's are not really
objective anymore. Technology has made photographic evidence less than
objective. What you may see "right there" in a photo, may in fact not exist at
all - except in the mind of the photo creator and then in the receptive mind of
the photo observer. An objective photo viewer can deny the "reality" of the
"doctored" photo. But then, the "receptive mind" can consider the "objective
photo viewer" to be subjective in the observation because the "receptive mind"
chooses to believe the false photo. Evidence now boils down to trust of the
personality offering the evidence. There is no objective evidence anymore that
I am aware of.
Jeff Siegel
Cetaman <cet...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199807182137...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Aloha Jeff,
>
> It is true that I must also give admiration and respect for your
passion
> and devotion to dolphins and when I find a dead dog, I am obliged to
clean it
> up. I was once in your shoes. We have more in common than we have
> differences. You have the right to live through your current experience
and
> all I can do is provide you and others with information and advice that I
have
> learned over the last twenty-five years.
{snip}
> Apparently, you are still gathering information on the captivity
issue
> otherwise you would have already joined the ranks of former dolphin
trainers
> who are now anti-captive activists. Have you had a chance to read my
three
> papers on dolphins? (Captivity issue, dolphin mental abilities, and a
> win-win-win proposed solution to the captivity issue.) There is
certainly a
> lot of food for thought there. They are at the web site below my
signature.
> My advice to you and other dolphin trainers would be to not take too long
> making your decision. The longer you take to come to the conclusion that
> captivity is bad for dolphins, the more pissed-off you will be at
yourself when
> you finally realize the truth.
>
> Aloha,
> Ken LeVasseur
> Cet...@aol.com
I have read your papers, and do understand the truth as well as live under
it. Don't get me wrong, I by no means think that the captive industry is
perfect or close to it. I feel that the company I work for, and any
facility with dolphins, needs to have people who truely love and care for
their dolphins with no other agenda than that of the dolphins. Even though
the ownership and care of captive dolphins is a major investment, we both
know, however, that ownership does not always have this view; but somebody
needs to care for the dolphins in the short term anyway.
I have worked with some of the ex-trainers turned anti-captivity; but feel
that the dolphins still in captivity need people to be their voice, to
portray these animals as they are and lend them support until the
disposition of the captive issue is settled one way or the other.
I began my career with dolphins in 1979, and believe me, I know some of the
horrors that you speak of; but without people who give a damn to work with
these captive dolphins, what chance do they have at all. I certainly care
about what happens to each of the dolphins I currenty work with, I have
grown attatched to them and wish to protect their short term and long term
welfare, to do what is best for them. I have lost dolphins who have died
in my arms, it hurts; but if I did'nt feel I was making a difference in the
quality of the dolphins lifes then I would resign to other forms of helping
the dolphins I love so much.
Our facility shares our dolphins with researchers, scientists, and special
education groups, we do contribute to the body of knowledge that future
conservationalist and wild life managers will need to draw on to save the
wild dolphins from potential ecological disasters at the hands of man.
Through our outreach and educational programs we have spread the message
about the need to protect dolphins is such countries as Peru, Bolivia,
Honduras, and Venezuella where dolphins are killed for animal feed,
fertilizer, or for human consumption.
Reguarding your post about the future of the captive population I must
agree, and with angst over the ramifications. Most of the industry is in
denial over this trend.
My experience with dolphins is lot limited to captive dolphins, of the
almost twenty years that I have been around dolphins, half of it has been
swimming with wild dolphins and administrating wild dolphin encounter
programs. A story 'The Boy Who Talked with Dolphins,' portrays some of the
experiences of my life, this story can be found either in the April 1996
issue of Readers Digest, or in the New York best selling book Chicken Soup
for the Teenage Soul.
Jefdolfin
Cuvein
>experiences of my life, this story can be found either in the April 1996
>issue of Readers Digest, or in the New York best selling book Chicken Soup
>for the Teenage Soul.
I read that story and reread it more than a few times. I liked it very much and
I know that it was true. Someone who would risk life and limb for the welfare
of dolphins deserves some kind of reward but I cannot think of any that would
apply.
Jo-Ann
in. I'm new to this newsgroup but I have to say only one thing in response
to Cetaman actions in 1977 BRAVO If Dolphin intelligence is anything
close to what I feel it is then they thanked you themselves by living on.
I'm not a scientist nor did I ever go on to further studies after
highschool. I'm just a mother of 6 who happens to be crazy about dolphins
so I hope you all don't mind me hanging around :) Once again Cetaman
BRAVO
Jo-Ann
jwe...@clarityconnect.com
--
We live as wild as the mountains and as free as the sea
Peter da Silva
Cetaman <cet...@aol.com> wrote:
> The word objective means having existence or a state in reality
>independent of the mind or a person's interpretation. Many consider photos to
>be objective evidence, but photos can be altered. Photo's are not really
>objective anymore. Technology has made photographic evidence less than
>objective.
If you have original negatives, well, they're still pretty much unfakeable.
--
This is The Reverend Peter da Silva's Boring Sig File - there are no references
to Wolves, Kibo, Discordianism, or The Church of the Subgenius in this document
Orca
: In article <199807222325...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: Cetaman <cet...@aol.com> wrote:
: > The word objective means having existence or a state in reality
: >independent of the mind or a person's interpretation. Many consider photos to
: >be objective evidence, but photos can be altered. Photo's are not really
: >objective anymore. Technology has made photographic evidence less than
: >objective.
: If you have original negatives, well, they're still pretty much unfakeable.
You can still double expose the negative but it usually is easy to spot.
--
---
\|/ \|/
* *
\_ _____--------. .--------_____ _/
== __ o__| |__o __ ==
----//---' `---\\----
Cetaman
You two must be film developing photographers! I forgot that chemical
reproduction might be an objective format. Well, so much for my short
enthusiasm. What happens when chemical film gets phased out? At least that
will be a while yet! Unless?
Lord Angel
Cetaman said:
>
> The dolphins were kept isolated because Herman was allowed to do so.
> Herman could run two experiments with two dolphins at the same time in two
> seperate tanks. The dolphins were not protected by regulations requiring
> dolphins to be kept with companions. The dolphins were PreAct.
Not a good idea. Dolphins need to communicate with other dolphins,
whether if it is in the wild or in captivity. I think what that guy did
was wrong. I heard that KBMML is now better. I read in a news
documentary that KBMML is treating the dolphins better and still allows
University of Hawaii to study about them. Am I correct?
>
> Beating people is only a small subset of non-verbal communication. It
> took me about a year to find out why Kea was beating people. After that she
> did not beat people anymore. Kea actually wanted people to interact with her
> very much, that was part of her frustration.
That is weird! Usually a dolphin who is beating people does NOT want to
interact with us. Usually if a dolphin wants to interact with us, he/she
will start nudging you for attention. That is very heartwarming for a
dolphin to nudge you, as long if he/she is not trying to perform sex.
How did you find out that she wanted to interact with you all by
beating people? That makes me curious.
>
> The word objective means having existence or a state in reality
> independent of the mind or a person's interpretation. Many consider photos to
> be objective evidence, but photos can be altered. Photo's are not really
> objective anymore. Technology has made photographic evidence less than
> objective. What you may see "right there" in a photo, may in fact not exist at
> all - except in the mind of the photo creator and then in the receptive mind of
> the photo observer. An objective photo viewer can deny the "reality" of the
> "doctored" photo. But then, the "receptive mind" can consider the "objective
> photo viewer" to be subjective in the observation because the "receptive mind"
> chooses to believe the false photo. Evidence now boils down to trust of the
> personality offering the evidence. There is no objective evidence anymore that
> I am aware of.
Yes, there are some photos that can be altered or created on computer,
but most of the evidence should be real.
>
> Aloha,
> Ken LeVasseur
> Cet...@aol.com
> Consultant
> Dolphin Mental Abilities and Captivity Issues
> http://whales.magna.com.au/POLICIES/levasseur
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Delete NOSPAM!
James Doemer
Myra wrote in message <35ba081a...@mammel.lover.no.isp>...
>On 23 Jul 1998 06:02:46 -0500, pe...@taronga.com (Peter da Silva) wrote:
>
>>In article <199807222325...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>>Cetaman <cet...@aol.com> wrote:
>>>independent of the mind or a person's interpretation. Many consider
photos to
>>>be objective evidence, but photos can be altered. Photo's are not really
>>>objective anymore. Technology has made photographic evidence less than
>>>objective.
>>
unfakeable.
>
>seen any, I'm just curious.
Not only illegal, but unless you drugged the dolphin, impossible.
Cuvein
Not if the dolphin wanted it very badly.
RJD9999
(Cetaman) writes:
> You two must be film developing photographers! I forgot that chemical
>reproduction might be an objective format. Well, so much for my short
>enthusiasm. What happens when chemical film gets phased out? At least that
>will be a while yet! Unless?
>
>Aloha,
>Ken LeVasseur
Ken,
With an electronic camera and a couple of hours, any photo reproduced through
computer can be easily modified. Most photoshops I've seen now use electronic
transfers and store the image from the negative on a computer and perform some
post processing (mostly changing lighting, removing red eyes, etc.) prior to
printing. Most photographic evidence nowadays needs to be backed up by multiple
documented observations.
Rick
Lord Angel
Shadopin writes:
>
> and yes, dolphins will demand this of people. i seem to rember an article
> a while back where a male dolphin tried (unsucessfully) mate with a female
> trainer.
Also, we should not forget about a dolphin who saved a women's life
tried to mate her. She posted her experience one day on AAD.
ShadowPhin
cuv...@aol.com (Cuvein) wrote:
/* >Not only illegal, but unless you drugged the dolphin, impossible.
/*
/* Not if the dolphin wanted it very badly.
Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <35b8b...@news.provide.net>,
"James Doemer" <big...@provide.net> wrote:
>
> Myra wrote in message <35ba081a...@mammel.lover.no.isp>...
<SNIP>
> >Would pictures of a man f***ing a dolphin be illegal? I've never
> >seen any, I'm just curious.
>
> Not only illegal, but unless you drugged the dolphin, impossible.
I'm sorry for disappointing, but only the first part of your answer
is correct. Yes, bestiality is illegal in many states. But drugged?
Impossible?.. You're wrong here, it's quite possible and without
drugs. Or maybe, you meant there: "...but unless you're drugged"? :)
Dolphin.
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In article <6pbdf7$c...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
KRISHNA-OR...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Hello Shadowpin, Cuvein, Myra, and the rest of the gang in AAD,
>
> Shadopin writes:
>
> >
> > and yes, dolphins will demand this of people. i seem to rember an article
> > a while back where a male dolphin tried (unsucessfully) mate with a female
> > trainer.
The article is: http://www.garage.co.jp/lilly/womandolph10x.html
>
> Also, we should not forget about a dolphin who saved a women's life
> tried to mate her. She posted her experience one day on AAD.
I think it was rather, a story than a real thing. As I assume, it was a wild
dolphin, and for dolphin, humans have "not right" bodies. If dolphin doesn't
know how, he just can't get the right point and all hits are usually going to
the human knees' region. And, in real life dolphins are not SO careful with
that kind of activity, like it was written. Well, the story is still nice.
That post ("life saver") you can find in the Deja News archive, there:
http://www.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=328601146
>
> DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
> Lord Angel
> Kona and Buttons
> Theater of The Sea
> Delete NOSPAM!
Dolphin.
- --
URL: http://www.psynet.net/dolphin __
Mail: Dol...@psynet.net / (
ICQ: 6615461 . ----------'---`--...__
/ ~~--._
Dolphin - Mortal /~~~ ~ ~-/~~/
Pod - Eternal! \__________ __ _____.......-----------\ _\
\\ (_
`~~~`
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=9VcQ
Cetaman
As some of you may be as curious as Lord Arun about
Kea’s beating of swimmers, an explanation appears to be in
order.
Kea was a neurotic dolphin - as many captive dolphins
become. Her neurosis centered around food and getting
fed. This made her an exceptional experimental subject as
Kea would do anything for a fish. However, as I learned the
hard way, Kea would take hostile action if she perceived that
you might come between her and a fish or feeding. This
gave Kea a terrible reputation as a short tempered beater.
But, because she was kept isolated from Puka (the other
dolphin), Kea suffered from loneliness. She really tried to
get people to swim with her, but no one trusted her. This
only made her more frustrated and lonely. I swam with her
intermittently over the first year I lived at the lab and had no
real problems, but that reputation always seemed to get in
the way. Then I learned why she beat-up people.
I was having a particularly nice swim with Kea one day
when no one else was at the lab. Among many other
dolphinid type maneuvers, Kea and I seemed to really like
one which a dolphin can only do to a human. I would lay on
my back and Kea would place her rostrum into the soft V
under my jaw and push me around the tank. While she was
doing this, Kea would “pop” clicks off of the underside of my
skull (about one a second). She appeared to like the effect,
and it was to me like no other feeling I have ever had. It
was quite pleasurable, I assume to both of us.
Then a female lab worker showed her presence and
walked to the back of the lab with her hands at her side (she
explained later). I noticed Kea leave me and go to the side
of the tank nearest the visitor. Kea solicited a fish from the
visitor and I said, “Kea, you do not want a fish, you want to
swim with me!” Well Reality Check soon occurred. Kea
grabbed me by my right bicep with her mouth and towed me
to the middle of the tank and upon letting me go and turning
around, gave me a crack with her caudal peduncle (the
vertical part of the dolphins tail before the fluke) on my left
thigh - as if to say, “Stay there!”. I immediately launched
myself straight up to a bar that spanned the tank. (The tank
was only 5 feet deep and the bar another 18 inches above
the water surface.) As I sat on the 6”X6” bar saying, “What
the Hell was that!”, the visitor freaked out. When she
freaked out, Kea could see her hands and that there were
no fish. I got up and limped to the side of the tank nearest
the visitor, to help her out. The visitor explained that she
had come down to the lab for a swim. She was very
apologetic in her actions and looked to see if I was hurt.
Oddly, Kea was acting the same way as the visitor. You
know how when something traumatic happens and your
hearing becomes a blur as you concentrate of what you can
see, well, that is how I noticed that Kea was being
apologetic - just like the visitor. The visitor was blabbering
and Kea was blabbering, they both were looking to see if I
was injured.
This behavior comparison intrigued me and I mentioned
to the visitor that Kea seemed to want to apologize. We
discussed what happened and how Kea thought the visitor
had a bucket of fish. So I got back on the wall, the first
stage of swimming with the dolphin and sat there. Sure
enough, Kea urgently but gently, in fact very gently, urged
and nudged me back into the water with her. (At this stage,
I do not remember what the visitor did as all my
concentration was on Kea.) The swim with Kea was
extremely pleasant and Kea was more gentle than she had
ever been. I accepted Kea’s apology and we had a
wonderful swim.
As a result of that incident, we made a policy about
swimming with Kea that encouraged people to swim with
Kea and kept other people away from the tank when
someone was swimming with Kea. Over the last year I lived
a the lab, Kea became down right sociable and never did
beat another swimmer. Lou Herman witnessed a swim I had
with Kea to retrieve something that he wanted out of the
pool when the pump broke. As we were not permitted to
swim with the dolphins when the pump broke, I made the
most of it. Lou Herman stood there with his mouth open and
eyes wide. When I got to the side, I asked him what was
wrong. He said he had never seen anything like that swim
in his life. I took it as a complement since Lou was an avid
swimmer.
Kea eventually showed less frustration and as she had
more human companionship was probably less lonely. This
experience and the experiences I had with Puka led to a
commitment to the dolphins health and well being that
influenced my decision to release the dolphins in 1977.
Fortunately, I had been hired to look out for the best
interests of the dolphins.
Aloha,
Cetaman
You are correct that what happened at the lab before the release was not a
"good idea". When Herman's lab was inspected so he could qualify for new
dolphins, NMFS found 41 major deficiencies. These deficiencies had to be
corrected in order for Herman's lab to receive new dolphins. The repairs and
modifications cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. These repairs do not even
include lab policy - which was part of our concern for the health of the
dolphins.
I hope my post on Kea's beating behavior answers your questions on that
subject.
James Doemer
Dol...@psynet.net wrote in message <6pbo93$m76$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
> "James Doemer" <big...@provide.net> wrote:
>>
>> Myra wrote in message <35ba081a...@mammel.lover.no.isp>...
>
><SNIP>
>
>> >Would pictures of a man f***ing a dolphin be illegal? I've never
>> >seen any, I'm just curious.
>>
>> Not only illegal, but unless you drugged the dolphin, impossible.
>
>I'm sorry for disappointing, but only the first part of your answer
>is correct. Yes, bestiality is illegal in many states. But drugged?
>Impossible?.. You're wrong here, it's quite possible and without
>drugs. Or maybe, you meant there: "...but unless you're drugged"? :)
>
>Dolphin.
>
>
And you would know this how???
Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <35bc6...@news.provide.net>,
"James Doemer" <big...@provide.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
> >I'm sorry for disappointing, but only the first part of your answer
> >is correct. Yes, bestiality is illegal in many states. But drugged?
> >Impossible?.. You're wrong here, it's quite possible and without
> >drugs. Or maybe, you meant there: "...but unless you're drugged"? :)
> >
> >Dolphin.
> And you would know this how???
Well, reading articles and personal experience. Dolphins don't know that
it's illegal. :)
Dolphin.
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Orca
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: In article <35bc6...@news.provide.net>,
: "James Doemer" <big...@provide.net> wrote:
: <SNIP>
: > >I'm sorry for disappointing, but only the first part of your answer
: > >is correct. Yes, bestiality is illegal in many states. But drugged?
: > >Impossible?.. You're wrong here, it's quite possible and without
: > >drugs. Or maybe, you meant there: "...but unless you're drugged"? :)
: > >
: > >Dolphin.
: > And you would know this how???
: Well, reading articles and personal experience. Dolphins don't know that
: it's illegal. :)
Well, it's not illegal for the dolphin. It's illegal for the human.
James Doemer
Dol...@psynet.net wrote in message <6pi9u6$qq4$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>
>In article <35bc6...@news.provide.net>,
> "James Doemer" <big...@provide.net> wrote:
>
><SNIP>
>
>> >I'm sorry for disappointing, but only the first part of your answer
>> >is correct. Yes, bestiality is illegal in many states. But drugged?
>> >Impossible?.. You're wrong here, it's quite possible and without
>> >drugs. Or maybe, you meant there: "...but unless you're drugged"? :)
>> >
>> >Dolphin.
>
>> And you would know this how???
>
>Well, reading articles and personal experience. Dolphins don't know that
>it's illegal. :)
>
>
>
Ah... The reason I said the above was that while I was stationed in florida
I seen some
people that was playing with a beach ball. A Dolphin (or perhaps Porpoise I
suppose)
started playing with the ball, flipped it to the humans, they would throw it
back. The
Dolphin seemed very playful and friendly, and was.. The people got closer
to the
Dolphin, some would reach out and pet and touch it. The Dolphin allowed
this, and
seemed to enjoy it as well. Suddenly, one of the guys got the bright idea
that they
would grab on to the dorsal, and ride the Dolphin. The Dolphin responded
by slapping
the guy with it's tail so hard, that the guy came a full body length out of
the water, and
flew about 10 feet through the air. Hehehe, some ride!! They may not
know what
is/isn't legal, but they (or at least that one) certainly has a concept of
"personal space" !!
Cetaman
When you said;
"Reguarding your post about the future of the captive population I must agree,
and with angst over the ramifications. Most of the industry is in denial over
this trend."
what post were you referring to? Also what do you think about the win-win-win
solution to the captivity issue exemplified in the Third Phase paper. The
third paper at the web site below my signature.
My apologies for not responding sooner. Somehow I missed your post and
only read it today. AOL is wierd, but then you know that, you have AOL to.
Lord Angel
James posted:
> Suddenly, one of the guys got the bright idea
> that they
> would grab on to the dorsal, and ride the Dolphin. The Dolphin responded
> by slapping
> the guy with it's tail so hard, that the guy came a full body length out of
> the water, and
> flew about 10 feet through the air. Hehehe, some ride!! They may not
> know what
> is/isn't legal, but they (or at least that one) certainly has a concept of
> "personal space" !!
OUCH! Looks like that the dolphin did not like to be ridden. Maybe he
should have gotten some trust from that dolphin that he was not meant
for harm before trying to ride it. It is illegal in the USA to initiate
contact with a dolphin, but if a dolphin initiates contact with you,
then that is ok. Hope that helps. :)
William A. Levinson
Lord Angel wrote:
> Aloha James,
>
> James posted:
> > Suddenly, one of the guys got the bright idea
> > that they
> > would grab on to the dorsal, and ride the Dolphin. The Dolphin responded
> > by slapping
> > the guy with it's tail so hard, that the guy came a full body length out of
> > the water, and
> > flew about 10 feet through the air. Hehehe, some ride!! They may not
> > know what
> > is/isn't legal, but they (or at least that one) certainly has a concept of
> > "personal space" !!
>
> OUCH! Looks like that the dolphin did not like to be ridden. Maybe he
> should have gotten some trust from that dolphin that he was not meant
> for harm before trying to ride it. It is illegal in the USA to initiate
> contact with a dolphin, but if a dolphin initiates contact with you,
> then that is ok.
I'd say the dolphin "initiated contact" with this individual very effectively!
;-)
Seriously, grabbing the dorsal fin (or any other appendage) of even a friendly
dolphin is a bad idea. (Alternately, since the people were playing catch with the
dolphin using a beachball, the dolphin may have assumed that the would-be rider
wanted to take the ball's place...)
--
William A. Levinson http://www.ganesha.org/misc/dolphin.html
Please direct mail to my Netcom address: wlevinso@ CONNECT PARTS TO REPLY
ix.netcom.com
Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
Hi, William and others!
In article <35BD4166...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com>,
"William A. Levinson" <wlev...@ix.NOSPAM4MEnetcom.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> > James posted:
> > > Suddenly, one of the guys got the bright idea
> > > that they
> > > would grab on to the dorsal, and ride the Dolphin. The Dolphin responded
> > > by slapping
> > > the guy with it's tail so hard, that the guy came a full body length out
of
> > > the water, and
> > > flew about 10 feet through the air. Hehehe, some ride!! They may not
> > > know what
> > > is/isn't legal, but they (or at least that one) certainly has a concept of
> > > "personal space" !!
<SNIP>
> Seriously, grabbing the dorsal fin (or any other appendage) of even a friendly
> dolphin is a bad idea. (Alternately, since the people were playing catch with
the
> dolphin using a beachball, the dolphin may have assumed that the would-be
rider
> wanted to take the ball's place...)
*grin*
Dolphins don't like it when somebody tries to hold them too hard. If even
dolphin allows you to touch and hold his flipper, he will try to get free
just when you start to hold it hard enough to limit the freedom of his
movements. Well, those "bright heads" who doesn't know what a respect is:
"Fly with Tail-Slap Airlines!" :)
Dolphin.
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Cuvein
>dolphin using a beachball, the dolphin may have assumed that the would-be
>rider
>wanted to take the ball's place...)
Lol, and he did for a few seconds.
Lord Angel
>
> <SNIP>
>
> > > James posted:
> > > > Suddenly, one of the guys got the bright idea
> > > > that they
> > > > would grab on to the dorsal, and ride the Dolphin. The Dolphin responded
> > > > by slapping
> > > > the guy with it's tail so hard, that the guy came a full body length out
> of
> > > > the water, and
> > > > flew about 10 feet through the air. Hehehe, some ride!! They may not
> > > > know what
> > > > is/isn't legal, but they (or at least that one) certainly has a concept of
> > > > "personal space" !!
>
> <SNIP>
William replied:
>
> > Seriously, grabbing the dorsal fin (or any other appendage) of even a friendly
> > dolphin is a bad idea. (Alternately, since the people were playing catch with
> the
> > dolphin using a beachball, the dolphin may have assumed that the would-be
> rider
> > wanted to take the ball's place...)
Maybe. It is better to leave the dolphin alone when it is playing with
other people, then after they finished playing, the dolphin can initiate
contact with that wanna be rider.
And then Dolphin:
>
> *grin*
>
> Dolphins don't like it when somebody tries to hold them too hard. If even
> dolphin allows you to touch and hold his flipper, he will try to get free
> just when you start to hold it hard enough to limit the freedom of his
> movements.
Yeah. I was reminded to hold gently to the dolphin's fin during my swim
in captivity. Holding on too hard will scare the dolphins, thinking it
might be someone attacking it.
> Well, those "bright heads" who doesn't know what a respect is:
> "Fly with Tail-Slap Airlines!" :)
LOL! I think the guy did not mean any harm too the dolphin, just wanted
a ride I guess. Some ride. :(
The dolphin was also surounded by many people, which it may have
stressed the dolphin also. Dolphins would rather be with only one person
than with many people.
>
> Dolphin.
>
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> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Delete NOSPAM when replying to me!
Lord Angel
I forgot to comment on one more thing:
I wrote:
> >
> > OUCH! Looks like that the dolphin did not like to be ridden. Maybe he
> > should have gotten some trust from that dolphin that he was not meant
> > for harm before trying to ride it. It is illegal in the USA to initiate
> > contact with a dolphin, but if a dolphin initiates contact with you,
> > then that is ok.
William then said:
> I'd say the dolphin "initiated contact" with this individual very effectively!
> ;-)
I doubt it. If the dolphin wanted to make contact with the wanna be
rider, it would have left the group who was playing ball and played with
the individual alone. When a dolphin is playing with another group of
people, never ever intefere with it. It is just like intefering with
your parents when they are talking on the phone. That rider was
intefering with the dolphin when it was playing ball with the other
people (Just like what you said on the bottom).
"Alternately, since the people were playing catch with the
dolphin using a beachball, the dolphin may have assumed that the
would-be rider
wanted to take the ball's place..."
It is better to wait for your turn when you want to play with the
dolphin by yourself.
> William A. Levinson http://www.ganesha.org/misc/dolphin.html
>
> Please direct mail to my Netcom address: wlevinso@ CONNECT PARTS TO REPLY
> ix.netcom.com
DUTY NOW FOR A BETTER FUTURE,
Lord Angel
Kona and Buttons
Theater of The Sea
Delete NOSPAM before replying!
Cuvein
>dolphin by yourself.
>
>
Like kids playing a game on the playground. They (the kids) tend to get annoyed
if you violate the order of the game and go "out of turn." I bet the dolphin
felt that way. Or maybe he or she thought that the person was making advances
and thought that it was way too soon.
frank...@delphi.com
>>Would pictures of a man fucking a dolphin be illegal? I've never
>>seen any, I'm just curious.
>
>Not only illegal, but unless you drugged the dolphin, impossible.
Frank
frank...@delphi.com
>/* >Not only illegal, but unless you drugged the dolphin, impossible.
>/*
>/* Not if the dolphin wanted it very badly.
>
>
>a while back where a male dolphin tried (unsucessfully) mate with a female
>trainer.
of the Dolphin.' And hers is by no means the only such story. Uncommon, but
it happens.
Frank
frank...@delphi.com
message.....
Frank
frank...@delphi.com
>>If you have original negatives, well, they're still pretty much unfakeable.
>
>seen any, I'm just curious.
plenty of human/other-animal images available on the net. (But I've not yet
stumbled across that particular combination, either. Presumably because it
happens infrequently, and/or that access to dolphins [unlike, say, dogs] is
not so common that any background could give away which marine park it was
shot at...)
Frank
frank...@delphi.com
>>is correct. Yes, bestiality is illegal in many states. But drugged?
>>Impossible?.. You're wrong here, it's quite possible and without
>>drugs. Or maybe, you meant there: "...but unless you're drugged"? :)
>>
>>Dolphin.
>>
>>
>
>
>And you would know this how???
plenty of zoophilia related sites where conformation can be found.
Frank
Cuvein
>plenty of human/other-animal images available on the net. (But I've not yet
>stumbled across that particular combination, either. Presumably because it
>happens infrequently, and/or that access to dolphins [unlike, say, dogs] is
>not so common that any background could give away which marine park it was
>shot at...)
>
> Frank
It is illegal, and raises a moral question. Should we? I have found stories of
sexual encounters between humans and dolphins on the Internet, but no pictures.
I would rather see two dolphins than a dolphin and a human.
Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <ZheN8yL.f...@delphi.com>,
Well, the site still works just fine for me. If you want, I can send it to
you via e-mail, though.
Dolphin.
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Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <199807310259...@ladder03.news.aol.com>,
cuv...@aol.com (Cuvein) wrote:
<SNIP>
> It is illegal, and raises a moral question. Should we?
It's illegal, but not everywhere. And some moral questions are very under the
question. Sould we? Well, if dolphins do it, can you give me any reason
(except a moral one, I don't accept those as *reasons*), why shouldn't?
> I have found stories of
> sexual encounters between humans and dolphins on the Internet, but no
> pictures. I would rather see two dolphins than a dolphin and a human.
>
> Doug (Cuv...@aol.com)
Want to see two dolphins? :)
Dolphin.
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Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <RjWvkCD.f...@delphi.com>,
frank...@delphi.com wrote:
<SNIP>
> One can readily refer to Margaret Howe's experiences in Lilly's `The Mind
> of the Dolphin.' And hers is by no means the only such story. Uncommon, but
> it happens.
>
> Frank
The only such story? Sorry, but it seems, you're wrong. What about Phoenix,
Fonzy stories? The same kind of stories. I even, have somewhere a short MOV,
made from the TV news program, with Fonzy and a woman, where Fonzy tried to
initiate such game. Yes, it happens, but it seems, not so uncommon...
Dolphin.
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Cuvein
>question. Sould we? Well, if dolphins do it, can you give me any reason
>(except a moral one, I don't accept those as *reasons*), why shouldn't?
Only one since I do not know if it is possible to get STD's from dolphins, and
that is that the dolphin will not concieve. But then how would a
half-human/half-dolphin survive?
frank...@delphi.com
>Well, the site still works just fine for me. If you want, I can send it to
>you via e-mail, though.
file. Still, if you would please.
Frank
frank...@delphi.com
>> Depends entirely on the obscenity laws in your area. God knows there are
>>plenty of human/other-animal images available on the net. (But I've not yet
>sexual encounters between humans and dolphins on the Internet, but no pictures.
>I would rather see two dolphins than a dolphin and a human.
the act itself. In any case, I'm neither advocating nor condeming the act,
just acknowledging that it happens.
Frank
frank...@delphi.com
>> One can readily refer to Margaret Howe's experiences in Lilly's `The Mind
>> of the Dolphin.' And hers is by no means the only such story. Uncommon, but
>> it happens.
>>
>> Frank
>
>The only such story? Sorry, but it seems, you're wrong. What about Phoenix,
>Fonzy stories? The same kind of stories. I even, have somewhere a short MOV,
>made from the TV news program, with Fonzy and a woman, where Fonzy tried to
>initiate such game. Yes, it happens, but it seems, not so uncommon...
indeed more.
Frank
Dol...@psynet.net
Hash: SHA1
In article <199807311909...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cuv...@aol.com (Cuvein) wrote:
> >It's illegal, but not everywhere. And some moral questions are very under the
> >question. Sould we? Well, if dolphins do it, can you give me any reason
> >(except a moral one, I don't accept those as *reasons*), why shouldn't?
>
> Only one since I do not know if it is possible to get STD's from dolphins, and
> that is that the dolphin will not concieve. But then how would a
> half-human/half-dolphin survive?
>
> Doug (Cuv...@aol.com)
Well, I can't remember anything about dolphins and STD now, but I know for
sure it's possible to get one from other humans. So... no more human/human
interactions? :)
Part with conceiving I will leave without comments, just because I can't
completely understand it. My English is kidding with me last times...
I doubt that half-human/half-dolphin has chances to survive, but even with
all my wish to believe, I even more doubt that such creature could be born.
Different set of chromosomes. Despite that just one pair less dolphins have.
Dolphin.
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