I don't care too much for Monet
Mark Diller
>I'm into art and art history. Why is it that people think I must therefore
>really want Impressionist calendars, cards, agendas, and posters as gifts?
Same reason they figure that someone who studies mythology must want to have
a complete collection of Joseph's Campbell's work, the reason being that it's
always a stretch to find a nice gift for someone, you look for an angle, and
when you think you have one you exploit it for all it's worth. Remember, it's
the thought that counts, and if you want to trade some Impressionist posters
for a few volumes of New Age mytho-crap, just let me know.
Mark
--
Mark Diller - Univ. Chicago Divinity School - aka zag...@aol.com
tauta de egeneto oudepote, esti de aei
loopy
Callahan) wrote:
> lm...@cornell.edu (loopy ) writes:
> Gift-giving is a very risky business, and not everyone seems equally
> sensitive to this fact. Personally, I am very nervous about the
> reaction when I find what appears to be an appropriate gift for
> someone.
Me too, and now that I've thought about it I realize my complaint was
rather presumptuous. My mom knows I like art; so she goes to a stationery
store and looks at calendars. What makes up 80% of the art calendars they
sell? Impressionists. She likes the calendar, thinks she's doing something
really thoughtful (and who says she's not?), and buys it for me. I can't
expect her to take a year and learn what my taste is all about.
> did eventually use them, but the general assumption: "Paul is someone
> who reads; therefore he'll be overjoyed to get a Walden's books gift
> certificate." seems to lack imagination in essentially the same
> way as the assumption that you like Impressionists.
yes, that is a good analogy. I myself hesitate to buy someone a gift that
requires a good knowledge of their taste unless I think I _do_ know their
taste fairly well. For instance I feel fairly comfortable buying jewelry,
CDs, clothes, perfume, and yes, art for people like my sister or certain
friends. I wouldn't buy an art calendar for my cousin who is an artist.
Ideally, I want my knowledge of the subject to be equal to or better than
the knowledge of the person for whom I'm buying the gift, otherwise I risk
screwing up royally.
> By the way, I think the reason so many people like the Impressionists
> is because they actually prefer realism, but Monet is the closest they
> can get to it while claiming to be sophisticated.
I disagree. I think it's because people like paintings of flowers,
landscapes, and happy people. THe Impressionists are popular because they
are not _too_ realistic. The pictures are pretty and calming. Nature
without bugs. I think people like realism to the extent that art should be
representational (that is, it should look like something); but it also has
to make you feel good.
> I have to admit Monet never did a whole lot for me. I like flat
> colors and bold strokes. This includes Native American art,
> especially Pacific Northwest. It includes some Miro, some Klee, some
> Picasso, and lots of other work that I just see and like and don't
> remember who did it. I also like Arabic tilings and Celtic braids. I
> don't mean that that's *all* I like, just that that's the aspect of my
> tastes that possibly distinguishes me ever so slightly from everyone
> else who likes lots of different things and enjoys puttering around
> just about any Art Museum.
I like Monet to a certain extent; he was a brilliant colorist, his style
was loose and painterly (ie you can see the brushstrokes), and he didn't
descend to the depths of sentimentality that REnoir usually did. I don't
know if I can really sum up my taste. I really like (in rough chronological
order) Fra Angelico, burgundian romanesque sculpture, Da Vinci, Botticelli,
Raphael, Vermeer, Breugels, de la Tour, Corot, Millet, Ingres, Van Gogh,
Cezanne, Seurat (especially his drawings), art Nouveau, Picasso, Matisse,
Miro, Klimt, Chagall, and countless others that, as you said, I saw and
liked and don't remember who did it.
> >The impressionists are saccharine sentimental
> >lightweights and I am profoundly unimpressed when I see Impressionist
> >posters in someone's house or office.
> The part after "and" is understandable, but I think it's a little
> presumptuous to dismiss an entire movement. I'd be interested in seeing
> you defend your viewpoint in front of something who knows what they're
> talking about and likes Impressionism.
I make a difference between _liking_ something, and thinking it is good or
has artistic merit or whatever. I don't deny that Impressionism had a huge
influence on what was to follow; since some of my favorite art is
post-impressionist I'd be silly to deny the value of Impressionism. But I
don't have to like it. Conversely there are many things I like that have
little or no artistic merit (like _the Sound of Music_).
> Funny, I never thought of Dali as being particularly compatible with
> scientists. I remember reading that he once made a fool of himself in
> front of someone or other, Oppenheimer I think, by shooting his mouth
> off on scientific topics he had no understanding of.
Others may disagree with me about this but I have noticed that many
scientists seem to like Surrealists. Painters like Dali and Magritte turned
out paintings that are superficially realistic, but on closer inspection
are completely illogical. It's the same reason I think Escher is so popular
among scientists.
I appreciate both Dali and Escher. I see the value in their work and I
appreciate their vision but as I said above that does not mean I _like_
them. I do like Magritte. My problem with Escher is that while I enjoy his
mathematical approach to drawing, there is no emotional component to it
whatsoever.
besides, it doesn't go with the sofa.
Lucie
*****************************************************************
L.Melahn, lm...@cornell.edu MYN GLAS LOOPT RAS
*****************************************************************
Thomas Price
>Same reason they figure that someone who studies mythology must want
>... if you want to trade some Impressionist posters
>for a few volumes of New Age mytho-crap, just let me know.
_Hero With a Thousand Faces_ and _The Masks Of God_ are brilliant,
and the rest is just rehashing and reselling the same thing over
and over again to yuppie rubes. It's a good gig if you can get it.
Do you have a copy of _A Skeleton Key to Finnegan's Wake_? I'll pay
you real money for it!
Tom Price | decentralization * justice * freedom
tp...@cs.cmu.edu | replicants * totalitarianism * body armor
Mitchell Marks
TP> Do you have a copy of _A Skeleton Key to Finnegan's Wake_? I'll
TP> pay you real money for it!
I have in paperback and near to rotting. So I couldn't accept money
for it, and besides I wouldn't want to lose it. But I'll lend it to
you, f'rinstance if you come to the Chicago angstcon next October...
--mm
a way a lone a last a loved a long the
savage henry
Thomas Price <tp...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
>Do you have a copy of _A Skeleton Key to Finnegan's Wake_? I'll pay
>you real money for it! /\
||heh heh heh.
h
couldn't resist _this_ spelling flame
(hippie chick)
>besides, it doesn't go with the sofa.
>Lucie
i have solved this problem by hanging anti war posters from nicaragua
and el salvador about the place.
they don't NEED to go with the sofa, and only have to be changed to update the
country having a war.
j.
old habits never die
loopy
Callahan) wrote:
> I don't know about this. I mean, there's no tragic component, for
> example, and there's no romantic component. I would admit this. But
> it's not as if he drew pure geometric diagrams. The individual
> figures of Escher's art (the roly poly creatures, for example) say as
> much about the artist as does the fact that they are sometimes packed
> into an infinite tiling, or doomed to travel an endless
> physically-unrealizable staircase. If Escher had merely produced
> schematics, his art would never succeeded as it did.
> Somehow, Escher's art is simultaneously somber and whimsical.
I know all this. As I said, I appreciate Escher. I just have a personal
dislike of his work. As I said I think Escher (like Dali) is popular
because the drawings are superficially realistic but on closer inspection
depict physical impossibilities. So people like Escher better than pure
schematics because instead of drawing blocks and diamonds, he drew stairs
and birds. His drawings have an implied allegorical aspect but that's just
icing on the cake. I personally dislike Escher because: 1. His drawings are
precise, tight, line drawings, whereas in general I prefer
drawings/paintings that don't use line; 2. I do science for a living and in
art I look for relief from science, not a reminder of the aspects I hate --
his staircase drawings are too good an analogy for grad school; 3. almost
all my nightmares look like Escher drawings with mazes and chasms and rooms
that come out of nowhere; 4. last but not least I'm just sick of seeing his
work everywhere.
That said, I don't dislike him as violently as I may have just made it
seem.
Colleen J. Mckiernan
: >I also hate Dali and Escher, partly because it's so cliched for scientists
: >to like them and partly because I just hate them.
: Funny, I never thought of Dali as being particularly compatible with
: scientists. I remember reading that he once made a fool of himself in
: front of someone or other, Oppenheimer I think, by shooting his mouth
: off on scientific topics he had no understanding of.
I don't know about Dali's understanding of science, but he was one of the
first people to think of DNA as a double helix. (No, I so not remember
the name of the painting that it is in. I only have 18th century art
books, so it may take a while to figure out which painting it is.)
Colleen
who thinks that Greuze is amazing
Don't even ask!
--
------------------------------------------------------
"Look, I beseech you. Don't leave me in this position,
waiting to be a judge. If there were no judge, what
would become of us, but what if there were no thieves?"
-- Genet, "The Balcony"
-------------------------------------------------------
chameleon
>Same reason they figure that someone who studies mythology must want to
have
>a complete collection of Joseph's Campbell's work, the reason being that
it's
>always a stretch to find a nice gift for someone, you look for an angle,
and
>when you think you have one you exploit it for all it's worth.
Remember, it's
>the thought that counts...
Mmm, not true at all, at least with my family. My mother freaks out
if gifts aren't planned with the same care and intricacy as the
GATT agreements, and I tried to milk an "angle" with my dad and
failed miserably (he liked a gift of a space-agey silver
indestructible Thermos, so I tried giving him other cool
indestructible eating and cooking gear and he made fun of me.
'Should I go get my old Army hat, too? Trying to send me back to
Korea?').
chameleon
(hippie chick)
>well, at least it'll be useful if the sandinistas and the contras decide to
>get together in your living room.
>Lucie
do the illegal guatemalans count?
they brought coffee.
j.
thedavid
Hey Paul,
Next thursday (the free day!) at the BMA. You & me.
What time would be good for you?
Just don't expect me to disrobe in Donna's unless
the cappucino is _really_ exquisite. Which, at those
prices, it damn well better be.
Have we a date, mon ami?
David
thedavid
: In article <3fccrj$9...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu>, call...@biffvm.cs.jhu.edu (Paul
: Callahan) wrote:
: > lm...@cornell.edu (loopy ) writes:
: > Gift-giving is a very risky business, and not everyone seems equally
: > sensitive to this fact. Personally, I am very nervous about the
: > reaction when I find what appears to be an appropriate gift for
: > someone.
: Me too, and now that I've thought about it I realize my complaint was
: rather presumptuous. My mom knows I like art; so she goes to a stationery
: store and looks at calendars.
Why do I feel like I'm butting in on good sex -
and (snip)ping it post facto?
: yes, that is a good analogy. I myself hesitate to buy someone a gift that
: requires a good knowledge of their taste unless I think I _do_ know their
: taste fairly well.
It's been a long long time since since anyone bought (or made!) me
a gift that reflected my _taste_ in anyway whatsoever. Sure flannel
shirts are soft and warm, but I could pick one up at the thrift store
for about a buck and save 'em the bother. I'm actually very easy to
please, as any half-perceptive soul who spent an hour with me in my
apartment would realize, and there are so many voids in my life that
it shouldn't take much thought to fill one. Otherwise, hey, just go away.
: > By the way, I think the reason so many people like the Impressionists
: > is because they actually prefer realism, but Monet is the closest they
: > can get to it while claiming to be sophisticated.
: I disagree. I think it's because people like paintings of flowers,
: landscapes, and happy people. THe Impressionists are popular because they
: are not _too_ realistic. The pictures are pretty and calming. Nature
: without bugs. I think people like realism to the extent that art should be
: representational (that is, it should look like something); but it also has
: to make you feel good.
HMMM...In September '86 I walked into my favorite cafe in "Frisco"
(the Picaro on 16th near Valencia) and was STUNNED by what I saw
on the walls. Damn near wet my pants. It was paintings of ORCHIDS,
these big dark brooding canvasses of purple, red & black "full of what
Life is really about," by an artist named Jamie Ehrfurt (sp?). I fell in
love on the spot, which deepened when I met her (she'd been sitting there
watching me gape & gawk at her work) and discovered she too was gorgeous.
Of course it didn't work out between us, that was not one of my "good"
spells, but at least I'd finally found "Art" I could care about. (She
wouldn't _give_ me one, not even in trade, and what they were worth I
just could not afford.) So besides the original of Donatello's "David"
there's a safe "artistic" gift: go to the Mission District, track
Jamie down and buy the best flower she's got. (Just don't mention me
or she'll probably kill you.)
Anyway. I've interposed enough into your learned discussion of
what passes for taste. Carry on.
TheTastey