Sharia and Halacha
David O'Bedlam
[This is a split off from a long thread that was once about Tolkien
and is now apparently about Al Qaeda etc. Interested late-comers may
click back in the References line.]
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> Bertil Jonell wrote:
> > If you refer to the last bombing I think most of the victims were
> > expat lebanese christians. Apparently they make up a very big fraction
> > of the expats that keep the Saudi fief working.
>
> Meaning they keep the lights lit up and the water running.
Like the Arab dhimmis do in Tel Aviv, fool. The fact is, "anti-Luddite"
hyperbole aside, I see so little *practical* difference, especially for
the "outsiders" involved, between Sharia and Halacha, between Zionism
and Islamism, that I loathe them both.
As for "militant Islamism", it's clear from reading Orthodox Jewish web
sites run by Orthodox Rabbis (or under their direct supervision) that
the Muslims learned their Talmud better than they needed to. Indeed, to
follow Wansbrough, Crone and Bat Ye'or, many great Islamic jurisconsults
were converted rabbis learned in Talmud (as was Paul de Burgos in Spain
under the Xians).
Note too that, if Wansbrough et al. are correct, the Quran is mostly a
collection of quotes from and allusions to Targum and Haggadah, Sunna
is a quasi-Talmud, and Islam is far more a split-off Jewish sect than
Christianity has been since the second century A.D. (when the Romans
destroyed Jerusalem after the Bar Kokhba revolt and barred Jews, but
not Christians, from its neighborhood).
(Note also, yet again, that I'm not Christian either. Nor am I Wiccan,
Buddhist, Druze or Gnostic. Indeed, it is impossible to *practice* my
religion, let alone to convert to it, so don't get confused.)
D.
David O'Bedlam
> David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> writes:
>
> > On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, Robert J. Kolker wrote:
> > > Bertil Jonell wrote:
> >
> > > > If you refer to the last bombing I think most of the victims were
> > > > expat lebanese christians. Apparently they make up a very big
> > > > fraction of the expats that keep the Saudi fief working.
> > >
> > > Meaning they keep the lights lit up and the water running.
> >
> > Like the Arab dhimmis do in Tel Aviv, fool.
>
> Ghanaian, etc. dhimmis now. They're nicer. They don't blow up buses.
Ah, I see. I stand corrected. I do recall reading about that, which
explains why "the Wall" is so popular now: Arabs ain't needed as much.
> > The fact is, "anti-Luddite" hyperbole aside, I see so little
> > *practical* difference, especially for the "outsiders" involved,
> > between Sharia and Halacha, between Zionism and Islamism, that I
> > loathe them both.
>
> The difference is that Sharia, as interpreted by Islamists, says that
> outsiders are forbidden to eat pork, whereas Halakhah, as interpreted
> by everybody, says that there's nothing wrong with outsiders eating
> pork. I see that as a very big *practical* difference.
Well, okay, if that's true; I've read of Muslim intolerance -- mostly
in places where they are the numerical majority. I haven't seen any
proof that "real" Jews would be any less intolerant where *they* rule;
it's my understanding that the secular vs. Orthodox division was very
politically contentious among Israeli Jewry itself, with halachicists
throwing stones at cars driving on the Sabbath among other things (as
is chucking rocks didn't qualify as "work" by itself).
So, how easy is it to get bacon or ham in West Jerusalem? (I'd expect
one can get anything in Tel Aviv that you'd find in Paris, e.g.) And
what about the Jewish colonies in the "Occupied Territories" -- can a
hillbilly boy get a bowl of biscuits and sausage gravy without a lot
of trouble?
> Your parallel is a little rickety, too. Islamism loves Sharia, but
> (classic) Zionism dislikes Halakhah, and all religion for that matter.
Ah, but it was my understanding, again, that the Begin/Likud victory,
or I should say of the coalition they put together, was the beginning
of the end of secular socialist Zionism. Kahane was no secularist. So
if you can't call Kahane a Zionist, what the hell *was* he?
D.
--
"It does not matter how many innocent babies die." <bobk...@attbi.net>
...................................................................
(C) 2003 TheDavid^TM | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
David O'Bedlam
> David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote:
[...]
> > hyperbole aside, I see so little *practical* difference, especially for
> > the "outsiders" involved, between Sharia and Halacha, between Zionism
> > and Islamism, that I loathe them both.
> I think there is a considerable difference, David. As far as I've
> been able to ascertain, despite the existence of enlightened individuals
> and perhaps even congregations of Muslims, Islam has never experienced
> the sort of formal reformation that Christianity has in the past four
> centuries and Judaism in the past two.
Point takens, that also what Rushdie and Ibn Warraq, among others, say.
However, as we've seen from, e.g., the Chetniks, the Lubavichers, and
the snake-handlers, there's a certain kind of person -- "temperament",
not "race" -- who is uncomfortable with anything but a neo-medieval
mindset (but with electricity, AK-47s and SUVs). If you saw the bumper
stickers on the vehicles around here you'd know what I mean when I say
the "Reformation" we got was not the one we needed.
(You'll have to sit near Silke in the Optimists section on this one.)
David O'Bedlam
> David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote in message
>
> > Like the Arab dhimmis do in Tel Aviv, fool. The fact is, "anti-Luddite"
> > hyperbole aside, I see so little *practical* difference, especially for
> > the "outsiders" involved, between Sharia and Halacha, between Zionism
> > and Islamism, that I loathe them both.
>
> just want to separate themselves from the outsiders; they don't want
> to convert them, or to subject them to halachic law, they just want no
> contact with them.
Is this true in places where they have considerable political clout?
Again, I'll apply my "biscuits and sausage gravy" test to "tolerance".
> The "dhimmi" in Arab countries had quite a few restrictions placed
> on him, not the least important one of which was that he had to pay
> a special tax to remain alive.
Whereas the Israelites were commanded to kill outight the Canaanites,
Hittites, Hivites, etc. etc.
> Also, he had to wear distinctive (and usually humiliating) clothing,
> he could not work in certain occupations,
This differs from say your "typical" Lubavicher how? "Humiliating"
is in the eye of the wearer as much as the beholder -- whereas
"distinctive" is, well, easily spotted. If I wanted some Yiddish
or Hebrew translated on a Brooklyn street, who would I ask first?
Again: some of the stuff I've seen "Goths" and "Punks" wear *I'd* be
embarrassed to be seen in, yet they pay good money to look like that
and consider it a sign of their *special* status. "Humiliating"? If
all that's "unusual" is your shoes are different colors, dude, that's
strictly Grandpa's idea of "cool"!
> he had to get out of the way if a Muslim was approaching - all
> sorts of little things.
People of low status have always been cursed with such afflictions.
THAT's the fruit of class and/or caste, not any particular religion.
> ObBook : "Dhimmi" by an author whose name I cannot remember - can
> someone help?
Written by Bat Ye'or. "The Other" was trying to discuss her books
with me, till things came up and I got distracted.
Larisa
> On 10 Dec 2003, Larisa wrote:
> > David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote in message
> >
> > > Like the Arab dhimmis do in Tel Aviv, fool. The fact is, "anti-Luddite"
> > > hyperbole aside, I see so little *practical* difference, especially for
> > > the "outsiders" involved, between Sharia and Halacha, between Zionism
> > > and Islamism, that I loathe them both.
> >
> > One important difference, at least to me, is that the ultra-Orthodox
> > just want to separate themselves from the outsiders; they don't want
> > to convert them, or to subject them to halachic law, they just want no
> > contact with them.
>
> Is this true in places where they have considerable political clout?
>
> Again, I'll apply my "biscuits and sausage gravy" test to "tolerance".
Will anyone kill you for eating pork in an Orthodox neighborhood?
> > The "dhimmi" in Arab countries had quite a few restrictions placed
> > on him, not the least important one of which was that he had to pay
> > a special tax to remain alive.
>
> Whereas the Israelites were commanded to kill outight the Canaanites,
> Hittites, Hivites, etc. etc.
In the 20th century?
> > Also, he had to wear distinctive (and usually humiliating) clothing,
> > he could not work in certain occupations,
>
> This differs from say your "typical" Lubavicher how? "Humiliating"
> is in the eye of the wearer as much as the beholder -- whereas
> "distinctive" is, well, easily spotted. If I wanted some Yiddish
> or Hebrew translated on a Brooklyn street, who would I ask first?
The average Lubavitcher forces the Gentiles to dress distinctively?
On pain of death? Not that I noticed. I wasn't talking about the
Moslem population in an Arab nation dressing distinctively - I was
talking about them *forcing* the non-Moslem population, on pain of
death, to dress in a particular way.
> > he had to get out of the way if a Muslim was approaching - all
> > sorts of little things.
>
> People of low status have always been cursed with such afflictions.
> THAT's the fruit of class and/or caste, not any particular religion.
Do low-status Americans have to get out of the way if a high-status
American is approaching, and what happens to them if they don't? Are
they killed?
LM
David
> David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote in message news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.03121...@troll.weezl.org>...
> > On 10 Dec 2003, Larisa wrote:
> > > Also, he had to wear distinctive (and usually humiliating) clothing,
> > > he could not work in certain occupations,
> >
> > This differs from say your "typical" Lubavicher how? "Humiliating"
> > is in the eye of the wearer as much as the beholder -- whereas
> > "distinctive" is, well, easily spotted. If I wanted some Yiddish
> > or Hebrew translated on a Brooklyn street, who would I ask first?
>
> The average Lubavitcher forces the Gentiles to dress distinctively?
> On pain of death? Not that I noticed.
Go on, twist my words. Surely, unless you're an idiot, you recognized
that I meant that the Lubavitchers freely choose to dress distinctively,
in a "get-up" that they're *proud* of, but that to most everybody else
(including a lot of pious Orthodox Jews) looks a little "funny".
If you're arguing that nobody should make anybody else "dress funny"
you're arguing with the wrong person: I wholeheartedly agree with you.
In fact, if it were made The Law that I *had* to dress as I do most
days, i.e. in jeans and a tee shirt, I'd immediately go shopping for
other "get-ups" to go out in -- even maybe (gack) a three piece suit.
One of my bitches with the Lubavitches is that I don't like dhimmiism
whoever wants to enforce it, regardless of who they want to enforce
it on, even if they expect to wait till "the World to Come" for their
chance at Global Domination. (I'd even forgive the bourgeois children
after the Revolution!)
Liberationally,
David
Susan Cohen
"David" <thed...@wizard.weezl.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.03121...@wizard.weezl.org...
> On 11 Dec 2003, Larisa wrote:
> > David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote in message
news:<Pine.LNX.4.44.03121...@troll.weezl.org>...
> > > On 10 Dec 2003, Larisa wrote:
> [...]
>
> > > > Also, he had to wear distinctive (and usually humiliating) clothing,
> > > > he could not work in certain occupations,
> > >
> > > This differs from say your "typical" Lubavicher how? "Humiliating"
> > > is in the eye of the wearer as much as the beholder -- whereas
> > > "distinctive" is, well, easily spotted. If I wanted some Yiddish
> > > or Hebrew translated on a Brooklyn street, who would I ask first?
> >
> > The average Lubavitcher forces the Gentiles to dress distinctively?
> > On pain of death? Not that I noticed.
>
> Go on, twist my words. Surely, unless you're an idiot, you recognized
> that I meant that the Lubavitchers freely choose to dress distinctively,
> in a "get-up" that they're *proud* of, but that to most everybody else
> (including a lot of pious Orthodox Jews) looks a little "funny".
>
> If you're arguing that nobody should make anybody else "dress funny"
> you're arguing with the wrong person: I wholeheartedly agree with you.
> In fact, if it were made The Law that I *had* to dress as I do most
> days, i.e. in jeans and a tee shirt, I'd immediately go shopping for
> other "get-ups" to go out in -- even maybe (gack) a three piece suit.
>
> One of my bitches with the Lubavitches is that I don't like dhimmiism
> whoever wants to enforce it,
You obviously have no cliue as to what you are discussing.
Go look up dhimmism.
Susan
yechidah
> whoever wants to enforce it, regardless of who they want to enforce
> it on, even if they expect to wait till "the World to Come" for their
> chance at Global Domination. (I'd even forgive the bourgeois children
> after the Revolution!)
>
>
Yeah. Well meanwhile these gentle folks are actively actively bringing
goodness and holiness in the world - DOING - not talking about it -
volunteering their time, energy and talents towards creating a better world
for all humanity, teaching millions of Jews and Gentiles what it is to be
holy.
And your claim to fame? A no-name on Usenet.
sheesh.
YS
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David
[...]
> You obviously have no cliue as to what you are discussing.
> Go look up dhimmism.
I did. I also read (most of) two very depressing books on it,
by the ex-Egyptian Jewish historian Bat Ye'or.
Whenever you don't understand what I'm saying or disagree with
me on it you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. This
instead of making sure you yourself know what I'm talking about.
I will admit, as I always do, that in talking of "the dhimmitude"
the Lubavitchers would impose on me in "The World To Come" I am
clearly using "dhimmi" in a loose, "poetic" sense; still I'm quite
sure that people who know what I'm talking about know *that* too.
Dhimmi, as I use it: a second-class "resident alien"
under a theocratic regime, i.e. not one of God's Chosen
People (who of course rule). Examples of "dhimmitude"
as I use it include the Christians and Jews under Islam,
the Jews and Muslims under the Catholic Monarchs, and
Righteous Gentiles in the Lubavitcher Paradise.
[CLEAR ENOUGH?]
Susan, you must want me BAD, or why keep up this disputation?
Or do you actually credit *me* with an ability to destroy (what
you see as True) Judaism with my "blitherings" on Usenet here?
If I'm that special more people should SEND ME MONEY to further
my Unholy Mission!
Send Love/Hate Offerings (or mail bombs or anthrax spores) to:
David A. Perry
P.O. Box 21403
Louisville, KY 40221
Sincerely yours,
`TheDavid^TM'
Apostle of Apostacy
P.S. By the way, Susan Cohen, is it true you're a convert?
Did you do like my Grandma's hillbilly neighbor was
always telling my sister, "marry a rich Jew when you
grow up"?
P.P.S. Yes, Obergruppenführer Ashcroft, OF COURSE I was kidding
about want them to send me mail bombs or anthrax spores.
Their spores won't pay my bills, I want MONEY.
Susan Cohen
> [...]
>
> > You obviously have no cliue as to what you are discussing.
> > Go look up dhimmism.
>
> I did. I also read (most of) two very depressing books on it,
> by the ex-Egyptian Jewish historian Bat Ye'or.
>
> Whenever you don't understand what I'm saying or disagree with
> me on it you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
If I have ever said this to you before, then it was true.
And if I have said this to you before, you are obviously a troll who is
deliberately changing his name to avoid killfiles.
This
> instead of making sure you yourself know what I'm talking about.
Since you *contradict* yourself in the post, you *show* that you don't know
what you're talking about.
>
> I will admit, as I always do, that in talking of "the dhimmitude"
> the Lubavitchers would impose on me in "The World To Come" I am
> clearly using "dhimmi" in a loose, "poetic" sense; still I'm quite
> sure that people who know what I'm talking about know *that* too.
>
> Dhimmi, as I use it: a second-class "resident alien"
> under a theocratic regime, i.e. not one of God's Chosen
> People (who of course rule)
And, yet again, you do not know what you are talking about; this time it has
to do with "Chosen".
. Examples of "dhimmitude"
> as I use it include the Christians and Jews under Islam,
> the Jews and Muslims under the Catholic Monarchs, and
> Righteous Gentiles in the Lubavitcher Paradise.
>
> [CLEAR ENOUGH?]
Yes, it's clear that you are actually a liar.
>
> Susan, you must want me BAD,
Oh, forget it. I knew you were a troll, but I didn't realize you were this
desperate & immature.
Susan
David O'Bedlam
[...]
> > Dhimmi, as I use it: a second-class "resident alien"
> > under a theocratic regime, i.e. not one of God's Chosen
> > People (who of course rule)
> And, yet again, you do not know what you are talking about; this
> time it has to do with "Chosen".
AGAIN: "Chosen" according to the self-proclamation of the Authorities
making up that stuff. The Jews said they're the Chosen People, the
Christians went "No you're not, WE are!", and then the Muslims popped
up with "Neener neener, *WE* are It, it's in *OUR* `Holy Book'!"
Did you not know this before? If not, why are you so unlearned?
> . Examples of "dhimmitude"
> > as I use it include the Christians and Jews under Islam,
> > the Jews and Muslims under the Catholic Monarchs, and
> > Righteous Gentiles in the Lubavitcher Paradise.
> >
> > [CLEAR ENOUGH?]
>
> Yes, it's clear that you are actually a liar.
What, you think I'm *lying* when I say that that's what I mean by
"dhimmitude" when I use the word? So you can see inside my inmost
mind now? If so, what *do* I *really* mean by "dhimmitude" when I
use it "poetically"?
Maybe I mean SEND ME MONEY.
Pityingly,
D.
--
"Spring was never waiting for us, girl. It ran one step ahead."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) `TheDavid^TM' 2003 | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
David O'Bedlam
It should already be clear to you, and to anybody else who I give
a smidgen of credit, what I think of Chabad or anyone else "teaching
millions of people .. what it means to be holy." So skip right to:
> And your claim to fame? A no-name on Usenet.
Hey, at least I'm not scamming people into creating for me a "vast
worldwide empire" by deluding them with crap. Whether Schneerson
was truly sincere or not, he put paid to his messianic pretensions
when he DIED A SICK OLD MAN. In Brooklyn, yet.
Lubavitchers are clearly NOT practicing Judaism by the standards of
world Traditional/Orthodox Jewry, not if you still claim your Rebbe
is Moshiach. And don't give me that crap about "He will return!" --
that's what the Christians say about THEIR "messiah", and the Shia
about THEIRS. Every fanatical cult whose tinpot "Redeemer" died a
miserable failure makes the same yechi claim: I've even heard such
said about Jerry Garcia, and before him of Jim Morrison, and THEY
only claimed to be poets and rock stars!
So tell me: how did you come to be a Jew, Susan? If the allegation
I've repeated is not true -- if you did not "marry yourself a rich
jewboy" like that old lady told my sister -- what did you do? Not
that I really care, it's just that your sad kind of fervor *is* in
fact often found in converts who don't know much about their faith
but still feel like they ought to defend it. Might I suggest that
your husband arrange to have you taught Torah and Talmud, instead
of consistently embarrassing yourself and Jewry all over Usenet?
And by the way, don't give me that "avoiding killfiles" crap: all
you have to do is, if it says "thedavid" anywhere in the From line,
DON'T READ IT. You can't really be that stupid, can you?
Sheesh. What does your husband say about how you spend your time?
Irreligiously,
TheDavid^TM
Apostle of Apostacy
--
"Spring was never waiting for us, girl. It ran one step ahead."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) `TheDavid^TM' 2003 | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
David O'Bedlam
[By the way, yes, I goofed: I should have put in a separation mark
of some kind, or maybe started a new post, to indicate that I had
switched to talking to Susan instead of Yechidah then. Silly me,
I got *carried away*.]
Kater Moggin
>> One of my bitches with the Lubavitches is that I don't like dhimmiism
>> whoever wants to enforce it, regardless of who they want to enforce
>> it on, even if they expect to wait till "the World to Come" for their
>> chance at Global Domination. (I'd even forgive the bourgeois children
>> after the Revolution!)
yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com>:
> Yeah. Well meanwhile these gentle folks are actively actively bringing
> goodness and holiness in the world - DOING - not talking about it -
> volunteering their time, energy and talents towards creating a better world
Damn shame that the Creator made such a fucked-up world in
the first place.
-- Moggin
to e-mail, remove the thorn
yechidah
"Kater Moggin" <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message
news:moggin-EBA23A....@netnews.attbi.com...
Speak for yourself.
David J. Loftus
> yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com>:
>
> > Yeah. Well meanwhile these gentle folks are actively actively bringing
> > goodness and holiness in the world - DOING - not talking about it -
> > volunteering their time, energy and talents towards creating a better world
>
> Damn shame that the Creator made such a fucked-up world in
> the first place.
ObEminentTheologianQuote:
"If there is a God, I don't think he's evil; I think you'd have to say
he's kind of an underachiever." -- Woody Allen, "Love and Death"
David Loftus
Kater Moggin
> Speak for yourself.
Thanks, but l aready did. I said it wouldn't be
necessary to make the world better if the Creator hadn't fucked
it up in the first place.
yechidah
"Kater Moggin" <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message
Failures usually feel this way.
Kater Moggin
> Failures usually feel this way.
Dunno what you feel or how you failed, but here's the item
you keep erasing:
Damn shame that the Creator made such a fucked-up world in
the first place.
This in reply to your comment that the Lubavitchers should
be credited for creating a better one.
yechidah
"Kater Moggin" <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message
> yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com>:
>
> > Failures usually feel this way.
>
> Dunno what you feel or how you failed, but here's the item
> you keep erasing:
>
> Damn shame that the Creator made such a fucked-up world in
> the first place.
>
> This in reply to your comment that the Lubavitchers should
> be credited for creating a better one.
You are a failure because you perceive the Creator in such a negative way.
You speak only of yourself. So take that finger and point it inwards -
rephrase your statement thusly: "Damn shame that ~I~ made such a fd-up world
in the first place".
Cause everytime you start harping on the hungry kids out there, lack of
humanity, or your outrage at the worlds leaders - I'm gonna be here with an
infinite mirror reflecting back to you and asking you when's the last time
you made a contribution to feed hungry kids, end disease and poverty, and
why aren't you actively engaged in bringing peace on earth?
You're just a hypocrite, except you conveniently dump the WHOLE load on the
Creator - instead of taking responsibility for your own f-ups.
David O'Bedlam
[...]
> > Damn shame that the Creator made such a fucked-up world in
> > the first place.
> >
> > This in reply to your comment that the Lubavitchers should
> > be credited for creating a better one.
> You are a failure because you perceive the Creator in such a negative
> way. You speak only of yourself. So take that finger and point it
> inwards - rephrase your statement thusly: "Damn shame that ~I~ made such
> a fd-up world in the first place".
So it's all MOGGIN's fault? HE is the Creator of the Universe? What *do*
you have to save for yourself, young man?
> Cause everytime you start harping on the hungry kids out there, lack of
> humanity, or your outrage at the worlds leaders - I'm gonna be here with an
> infinite mirror reflecting back to you and asking you when's the last time
> you made a contribution to feed hungry kids, end disease and poverty, and
> why aren't you actively engaged in bringing peace on earth?
How do you know he isn't engaged in making the world a better place?
> You're just a hypocrite, except you conveniently dump the WHOLE load on the
> Creator - instead of taking responsibility for your own f-ups.
Down, girl. Moggin was merely pointing out that the Creator COULD have
made a world that did NOT need fixing: a world where NO kids went hungry,
where there was NO poverty and disease, that ALREADY had peace on Earth.
This is why I don't believe in YHWH: what kind of Creator would make a
fucked up, diseased, warlike world like THIS? If your God exists he's
one sadistic and twisted sonofabitch.
Love,
Davey
--
"I will see the worship in their eyes, and I will lose it."
yechidah
"David O'Bedlam" <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.03121...@troll.weezl.org...
What are ~you~ doing personally to bring world peace? How many starving
children have you helped feed today? What are you doing about pollution
Davey? What are you doing about epidemics? Are you volunteering at a soup
kitchen? Are you folding sweaters for Somalian refugees?
You're another loud mouth hypocrite, adding nothing to the world but hot
putrid air. So unless you come up with receipts and time slots, keep your
mental chatter to yourself.
David E. Latane
On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, yechidah wrote:
> Are you folding sweaters for Somalian refugees?
Just out of curiosity, why can't Somalian refugees fold their own
sweaters? And is it really necessary? I just wad mine up and stuff them in
the drawer.
D. Latane
smw
David E. Latane wrote:
I've found that a row of big handsome lined wicker baskets works very
well in lieu of a closet and drawers.
David O'Bedlam
> I've found that a row of big handsome lined wicker baskets
> works very well in lieu of a closet and drawers.
You clearly don't live with three healthy ferrets.
D.
Kater Moggin
>> Damn shame that the Creator made such a fucked-up world in
>> the first place.
yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com>:
> You are a failure because you perceive the Creator in such a negative way.
Non sequitur, dude. But say you're right: it follows the
scriptures are a lamentable failure, since they make
precisely the same point I did. For example, Genesis shows the
Creator screwing up his Creation: cursing the ground, etc.
In Isaiah, Yahweh promises to make a better world (a promise he
had yet to keep) and says that this one won't even be
remembered, tacitly admitting it's crap. (Chapter and verse on
request.)
> You speak only of yourself.
No, that's you. You speak only of me in order to duck the
hard questions about Creator and Creation.
> So take that finger and point it inwards -
> rephrase your statement thusly: "Damn shame that ~I~ made such a fd-up world
> in the first place".
I'll leave my statement the way it stands: damn shame the
Creator made such a fucked-up world.
> Cause everytime you start harping on the hungry kids out there, lack of
> humanity, or your outrage at the worlds leaders - I'm gonna be here with an
> infinite mirror reflecting back to you and asking you when's the last time
> you made a contribution to feed hungry kids, end disease and poverty, and
> why aren't you actively engaged in bringing peace on earth?
None of those things would need fixing if the Creation was
less of a botch.
> You're just a hypocrite, except you conveniently dump the WHOLE load on the
> Creator - instead of taking responsibility for your own f-ups.
You're just a liar, since I never claimed the Creator held
sole responsibility or denied I was responsible for my own
screw-ups. I'll take responsibility for mine, and he should do
the same for his.
Kater Moggin
> David O'Bedlam <thed...@troll.weezl.org> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.44.03121...@troll.weezl.org...
I see yechidah has crudely dodged all of David's points by
erasing them w/out reply. Here's the key one:
...what kind of Creator would make a fucked
up, diseased, warlike world like THIS? If
your God exists he's one sadistic and twisted
sonofabitch.
-- Moggin
jonah thomas
> "David" <thed...@wizard.weezl.org> wrote
>>On Thu, 11 Dec 2003, Susan Cohen wrote
>>[...]
>>>You obviously have no cliue as to what you are discussing.
>>>Go look up dhimmism.
>>I did. I also read (most of) two very depressing books on it,
>>by the ex-Egyptian Jewish historian Bat Ye'or.
>>Whenever you don't understand what I'm saying or disagree with
>>me on it you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
> If I have ever said this to you before, then it was true.
I've seen you do this a lot too. You tell people they don't know waht
they're talking about, and you let it go at that. I don't know why you
bother. It's like preaching to the converted, it won't convince anybody
who isn't already convinced.
> And if I have said this to you before, you are obviously a troll who is
> deliberately changing his name to avoid killfiles.
He does always include "thedavid" in his ID. If you killfile that ID
string you might occasionally screen out some other "thedavid" but I
doubt there will be very many others.
>> This instead of making sure you yourself know what I'm talking about.
> Since you *contradict* yourself in the post, you *show* that you don't know
> what you're talking about.
If you want to discuss it, why not show how he contradicts himself? He
might possibly be contradicting some assumptions that you start with but
that he doesn't.
>>Susan, you must want me BAD,
> Oh, forget it. I knew you were a troll, but I didn't realize you were this
> desperate & immature.
You didn't? Have you not been paying attention? This is no worse than
at least three previous posts I can remember offhand. So OK, if you
knew he was a troll why do you keep responding to him?
"I already knew you were a troll, and now I see how desperate and
immature you are, so I'm replying anyway." Is that anything like "I
knew the bed was on fire when I lay down on it"?
yechidah
"Kater Moggin" <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message news:moggin-
You sure have a lot of words for *I'm copping out*.
yechidah
"Kater Moggin" <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message
Ah the Blame Game. Just like your parents, just like your teachers, just
like your politicians, just like your preachers.
There's a path of destruction honey, and you're on it.
Kater Moggin
things she can't reply to.
Kater Moggin <mog...@attbiTHORN.com>:
>> I see yechidah has crudely dodged all of David's points by
>> erasing them w/out reply. Here's the key one:
>> ...what kind of Creator would make a fucked
>> up, diseased, warlike world like THIS? If
>> your God exists he's one sadistic and twisted
>> sonofabitch.
yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com>:
> Ah the Blame Game. Just like your parents, just like your teachers, just
> like your politicians, just like your preachers.
Now you're attacking rabbis -- and _still_ dodging David's
point above.
Kater Moggin
>> ... Genesis shows the
>> Creator screwing up his Creation: cursing the ground, etc.
>> In Isaiah, Yahweh promises to make a better world (a promise he
>> had yet to keep) and says that this one won't even be
>> remembered, tacitly admitting it's crap. (Chapter and verse on
>> request.)
yechidah <TheHeal...@hotmail.com>:
> You sure have a lot of words for *I'm copping out*.
I agree you've copped out, but that's a bad summary of the
post you're not-answering. Here's a better one:
Damn shame that the Creator made such a botch of the world.
Norma
"Kater Moggin" <mog...@attbiTHORN.com> wrote in message
Whoops! Who botched things exactly? Norma
Kater Moggin
>> Damn shame that the Creator made such a botch of the world.
Norma <norm...@charter.net>:
> Whoops! Who botched things exactly?
Vide supra.
David O'Bedlam
[...]
> > Damn shame that the Creator made such a botch of the world.
>
> Whoops! Who botched things exactly? Norma
The Creator. I.e., God. YHWH. Adonai. Surely you've heard of Him?
D.
--
"Spring was never waiting for us, girl. It ran one step ahead."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
(C) `TheDavid^TM' 2003 | David, P.O. Box 21403, Louisville, KY 40221
Norma
"David O'Bedlam" <thed...@shell.rawbw.com> wrote in message
news:2003121416...@shell.rawbw.com...
> On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Norma wrote back to Moggin:
> [...]
>
> > > Damn shame that the Creator made such a botch of the world.
> >
> > Whoops! Who botched things exactly? Norma
>
> The Creator. I.e., God. YHWH. Adonai. Surely you've heard of Him?
Of course, but maybe the humans he created with free will did the botching?
Norma
jonah thomas
>>>Whoops! Who botched things exactly? Norma
>>The Creator. I.e., God. YHWH. Adonai. Surely you've heard of Him?
> Of course, but maybe the humans he created with free will did the botching?
"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."
If he made us the way we are, knowing ahead of time how we'd botch it
up, what does that say about him?
On the other hand it could be argued that things are going just fine,
that how things are is how he wants them to be. That everything we care
about is of incidental interest to God, who has his own goals for us.
That our concepts of good and evil are so utterly provincial and petty
that they are utterly irrelevant to the Big Picture.
The idea that something is botched up is a human conceit. Maybe there's
nothing wrong anywhere. Maybe everything in the whole universe is
completely peachy-keeno. God's in his heaven and all's right with the
world.
francis muir
Gezundheit!