Imagine No Atheism
Sound of Trumpet
Imagine no atheism
Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She is
the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the idea
that there is a God. She sees herself as being involved in a struggle
of Reason against Superstition, and is a great believer in autonomy,
the right to die, abortion rights, and deplores the influence of the
churches in society, which she seems to think is very great. Shame it
wasn't great enough to stop Blair's illegal war in Iraq when the
Catholic, Anglican and free church leaders begged the prime minister
not to do it.
The interviewer brought up the 20th century when gentlemen like Mao,
Stalin and Hitler, men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
religion and its restrictions, had done so much evil. Didn't organised
religion with it's teachings about the respect due to the individual
(and, he didn't but might have said, the fear of facing a righteous
God at Judgement Day with bloodstained hands) offer some restraints
against such 'scientific atheism' and other irreligious philosophy
which was used to justified mass murder? She typically shrugged this
off and said that religious people were just as bad when they got into
power. She didn't offer an example so we could compare numbers, the
assertion was enough evidence for her. Not all atheists were Stalins,
she said. Agreed, but ONE was-and he and his atheist government
machine murdered 60 million or more people in the name of the secular
state and 'progress'. No Christian, compelled by love and restrained
by the fear of God, has ever or could ever do any such thing.
Atheist state power and Christian state power 'just the same' Polly?
Really? Hitler's war cost 50 million dead, plus the economic and
environmental cost, Stalin and Mao are both thought to have rivalled
or exceeded that number. Roger Bolton didn't even mention Paris-
educated atheist Pol Pot who murdered a mere 2 million people in
Cambodia in living memory. These men were all social Darwinists to the
core, Hitler was a pagan rather than an atheist, and used a form of
religious language when it suited him, but they all rejected the idea
that a righteous Creator and Lawgiver God had the authority to order
and restrain their behaviour-with terrible consequences. Stalin
abandoned Christianity and embraced atheism after reading Darwin.
Ideas have consequences.
It is a tragedy that influential journalists like Polly Toynbee are
able to get away with calling themselves rational while making flip
comments asserting that the 150 million plus deaths caused by
secularist philosophies when they got into power in the 20th century
were matched by similar atrocities caused by the church. Of course she
did not offer any examples as there aren't any which bear examination.
Polly, nothing you or your mate Dawkins has said convinces me that
there is not a seed of Stalin in your philosophy which would
'liquidate superstition' by all means necessary if you could.
Sir Frederick
>http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
>Imagine no atheism
>
>http://www.questiondarwin.com
>
Imagine, people taking the virtual reality or representations
produced by their brain processes, as reality!
1Z
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:36:12 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>
> >http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> >Imagine no atheism
>
> >http://www.questiondarwin.com
>
> Imagine, people taking the virtual reality or representations
> produced by their brain processes, as reality!
And brain processes are in the virtual reality or the real reality?
Sir Frederick
Probably both.
Jimbo
wrote:
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> Imagine no atheism
>
> http://www.questiondarwin.com
>
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She is
> the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the idea
> that there is a God.
LOL! It's amazing the way religionists will distort just about
anything to their own point of view.
Enkidu
> Imagine no atheism
We lived it . . . it's called "The Dark Ages".
--
--
Enkidu AA#2165
EAC Chaplain and ordained minister,
ULC, Modesto, CA
"The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has killed a great many philosophers."
-- Denis Diderot
Syd M.
Well, Sound Of Tremendous Stupid Lies, cough up this 'god' of yours
and it'll vanish.
Until then, we're here, and theres nothing you can do about that.
PDW
raven1
> Not all atheists were Stalins,
>she said. Agreed, but ONE was-and he and his atheist government
>machine murdered 60 million or more people in the name of the secular
>state and 'progress'. No Christian, compelled by love and restrained
>by the fear of God, has ever or could ever do any such thing.
Pass the haggis, laddie!
Dan Clore
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
> Imagine no atheism
> http://www.questiondarwin.com
> The interviewer brought up the 20th century when gentlemen like Mao,
> Stalin and Hitler, men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
> religion and its restrictions, had done so much evil.
> Really? Hitler's war cost 50 million dead, plus the economic and
> environmental cost,
> These men were all social Darwinists to
> the core, Hitler was a pagan rather than an atheist, and used a form
> of religious language when it suited him, but they all rejected the
> idea that a righteous Creator and Lawgiver God had the authority to
> order and restrain their behaviour
Etc.
Hitler was in fact a lifelong Roman Catholic, and endorsed Creationism
in Mein Kampf.
Anyone interested in the numbers slain by Christians can begin their
research here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1559501642/ref=nosim/thedanclorenecro
--
Dan Clore
New book: _Weird Words: A Lovecraftian Lexicon_:
http://tinyurl.com/yd3bxkw
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
(Wait for the new edition: http://hplmythos.com/ )
Lord We�rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
http://tinyurl.com/292yz9
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
Strange pleasures are known to him who flaunts the
immarcescible purple of poetry before the color-blind.
-- Clark Ashton Smith, "Epigrams and Apothegms"
rochrist
Imagine no christian lunatics.
L.Roberts
wrote:
Fuck imagining, produce a god you fucking religi-idiotic dunce and
make 'No atheism' a reality.
L.Roberts
aa #2258
Jon Schild
>
>
> Imagine no atheism
>
I know you are not capable of even forming this idea, let alone
considering it, but she does have freedome of belief. As much as you
find if offensive that there is anyone in the world who does not
subscribe to your microcephalic distortion of religion, there are such
people, and they have a right to believe and say ANYTHING THEY WANT!
At least she doesn't leave drive-by piles of steaming feces on unrelated
newsgroups.
Franco
Blair is a Christian (reportedly very devout and recently converted to
Roman Catholicism) and yet he involved the UK in wars in Afghanistan
and Iraq. He is not the only Christian to engage in warfare.
David Johnston
<soundof...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>
>The interviewer brought up the 20th century when gentlemen like Mao,
>Stalin and Hitler, men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
>religion and its restrictions, had done so much evil.
Hitler did not reject the idea of religion although of course he
expected it, like everything else, to be subordinate to the leader.
Didn't organised
>religion with it's teachings about the respect due to the individual
>(and, he didn't but might have said, the fear of facing a righteous
>God at Judgement Day with bloodstained hands) offer some restraints
>against such 'scientific atheism' and other irreligious philosophy
>which was used to justified mass murder?
Based on the 30 million death toll of the religiously motivated
Taiping Rebellion...no.
Dan Clore
> On Nov 6, 6:36 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
> wrote:
>> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>> Imagine no atheism
>> http://www.questiondarwin.com
> Blair is a Christian (reportedly very devout and recently converted
> to Roman Catholicism) and yet he involved the UK in wars in
> Afghanistan and Iraq. He is not the only Christian to engage in
> warfare.
And Bush invaded Iraq on a mission from Gawd:
News & Views for Anarchists & Activists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/smygo
http://www.allgov.com/ViewNews/Bush_Invaded_Iraq_on_a_Mission_from_God_90809
Bush Invaded Iraq on a Mission from God
Sunday, August 09, 2009
by David Wallechinsky
During the run-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, President George W. Bush
and members of his administration gave a variety of justifications for
military action, which can best be summed up as �Saddam Hussein has
chemical and biological weapons and even nuclear weapons that he plans
to give to Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda who will then smuggle them into
the United States and kill tens of thousands of people.� Opponents of
the invasion suspected Bush was actually motivated by a desire to
control Iraq�s large oil reserves. However, according to reports out of
Switzerland and France, President Bush appears to have been inspired by
another source: Biblical prophecy.
Apparently, while trying to drum up international support for the
invasion of Iraq, Bush placed a phone call to the president of France,
Jacques Chirac, and presented a series of arguments to convince the
French president to join Bush�s �Coalition of the Willing.� In the
course of the conversation, according to an English-language
translation, Bush told Chirac, �Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle
East�. The Biblical prophecies are being fulfilled�. This confrontation
is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people�s
enemies before a New Age begins.
Chirac, a Catholic, didn�t understand what Bush, an Evangelical
Christian, was talking about, and asked his staff to find out who Gog
and Magog were and what they meant to the U.S. president. Chirac�s staff
contacted the Biblical Service of the French Federation of Protestants,
who in turn called Thomas R�mer, a Professor of Theology at the
University of Lausanne and a specialist in the Old Testament. R�mer was
asked to prepare a one-page report on the subject of Gog and Magog to be
shown to the president of France.
R�mer maintained silence about the incident until Chirac left office in
May 2007, after which the professor revealed the story in an interview
with the University of Lausanne�s school magazine, Allez savoir!
[http://www2.unil.ch/unicom/allez_savoir/as39/index.html ]. Earlier this
year, Chirac confirmed the story in a book, Si vous le r�p�tez, je
d�mentirai... : Chirac, Sarkozy, Villepin [If You Repeat It, I�ll Deny
It] by Jean-Claude Maurice,
So, for those to whom the allusion is not obvious, what did Bush mean
when he referred to Gog and Magog? Gog and Magog appear in the prophetic
Book of Ezekiel 38-39, and the section is open to various
interpretations. Gog is the human personification of evil who will lead
a multinational invasion of Israel from the north and be defeated, with
great violence, by God, who will restore Israel�s security. Magog refers
to the land from which Gog hails. To George Bush, Gog and Magog probably
meant the ultimate future battle between the forces of good and the
forces of evil, a battle that had been predicted more than 2,500 years
earlier, but whose time had finally come.
Chirac, who had sent French troops to support Bush�s 2001 invasion of
Afghanistan, was not convinced this time, and refused to join Bush�s
Coalition of the Willing.
A French Revelation, or The Burning Bush (by James A. Haught, Council
for Secular Humanism)
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=haught_29_5
Did He Feel Hand of God? (by Mitch Potter, Toronto Star)
http://www.thespec.com/article/572824
Early 2003: Chirac Asks Theologian to Explain George W. Bush's Reference
to Gog and Magog (Sedulia�s Translations)
http://tinyurl.com/m5nv57
George W. Bush et le Code Ez�chiel (by Jocelyn Rochat, Allez savoir!)
(PDF) [French original]
http://www2.unil.ch/unicom/allez_savoir/as39/pages/pdf/4_Gog_Magog.pdf
Ezekiel 38-39 (New American Standard Bible) (BibleGateway.com)
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2038-39&version=49
--
Dan Clore
New book: _Weird Words: A Lovecraftian Lexicon_:
http://tinyurl.com/yd3bxkw
My collected fiction, _The Unspeakable and Others_:
(Wait for the new edition: http://hplmythos.com/ )
Lord We�rdgliffe & Necronomicon Page:
T Guy
:
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> Imagine no atheism
>
> http://www.questiondarwin.com
>
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She is
> the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the idea
> that there is a God.
(T Guy):
Do you think that she hates the idea of four-sided triangles?
(Strumpet):
She sees herself as being involved in a struggle
> of Reason against Superstition, and is a great believer in autonomy
(T Guy):
You make that sound like a bad thing. This may reveal your true
colours.
(Strumpet):
,
> the right to die, abortion rights, and deplores the influence of the
> churches in society, which she seems to think is very great. Shame it
> wasn't great enough to stop Blair's illegal war in Iraq when the
> Catholic, Anglican and free church leaders begged the prime minister
> not to do it.
(T Guy):
The reasoned objections of some atheists failed as much as the begging
of the theists; they were equally ignored by the theist Blair.
(Strumpet):
>
> The interviewer brought up the 20th century when gentlemen like Mao,
> Stalin and Hitler, men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
> religion
(T Guy):
Nope. I don't know about Hitler - others elsethread address his
religious beliefs - but Stalin and Mao were both self-alleged
Marxists.
(Strumpet):
...No Christian, compelled by love and restrained
> by the fear of God, has ever or could ever do any such thing.
(T Guy):
Atheists are compelled by love; there is no need to threaten them and
make them afraid of some more poweerful being to make them act well.
(Strumpet):
>
> Atheist state power and Christian state power 'just the same' Polly?
> Really? Hitler's war cost 50 million dead, plus the economic and
> environmental cost,... Hitler was a pagan rather than an atheist,
(T Guy):
Make up your... oh, yeah, okay, as you were.
(Strumpet):
> Polly, nothing you or your mate Dawkins has said convinces me
(T Guy):
Would it be more convincing if you didn't start off from the position
that there is a powerful being who will torture you if Polly convinces
you?
(Strumpet):
that
> there is not a seed of Stalin in your philosophy which would
> 'liquidate superstition' by all means necessary if you could.
(T Guy):
Oh, if only...
T Guy
Zebra
God or Atheism.
And Christianity does not = God.
Christianity is the belief that God had a son who appeared
on Earth.
This is not really a belief in God.
A belief in God is to do with a Creator, an explanation as
to how Earth got there, an all powerful being who arranges
destiny and this kind of thing. This belief is nothing to
do with Christianity.
And other alternatives are those who belief in Destiny, the
Powers that Be, "something more", but this does not
necessarily mean or equate with God or any form of religion.
Some like Einstein are what are known as Agnostic. In other
words they cannot really make a firm decision, but
constantly reflect on the idea and vary their decision
according to thoughts and circumstances and various evidence
or proof.
All you are really trying to say is that there are good
people and bad people.
This Polly Tonybee sounds like a bad person.
But bad people exist in atheism, agnosticism, Judaism,
Christianity, Islam, etc bad people are bad people, religion
cannot and does not make bad people "good" the same as
atheism or agnosticism cannot and does not make good people
"bad".
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundof...@dcemail.com> wrote in
message
news:038996c0-712e-4e2a...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Howard Brazee
wrote:
>LOL! It's amazing the way religionists will distort just about
>anything to their own point of view.
He's only interested in the alternatives that threaten his belief.
He's not trying to convert Hindus, for instance.
--
"In no part of the constitution is more wisdom to be found,
than in the clause which confides the question of war or peace
to the legislature, and not to the executive department."
- James Madison
Howard Brazee
rec.arts.sf.written. F&SF has often imagined what would happen if
gods were real, and it wasn't a matter of "belief".
Mike Schilling
"Howard Brazee" <how...@brazee.net> wrote in message
news:7nn9f5p7p8co4pnm1...@4ax.com...
> It's interesting that he chose to cross post this to
> rec.arts.sf.written. F&SF has often imagined what would happen if
> gods were real, and it wasn't a matter of "belief".
It's become a common trope that gods cease to exist if no one believes in
them.
Shrikeback
Ja! Ja! First ve line zem up, zen ve shoot zem!
The Chief Instigator
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> Imagine no atheism
You shouldn't post when you're that high on whatever chemicals you're
abusing, kid.
--
Patrick L. "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.io.com/~patrick/aeros.php (TCI's 2008-09 Houston Aeros) AA#2273
LAST GAME: Houston 4, Manitoba 1 (November 5)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, November 7 vs. San Antonio, 7:35
polymer
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:36:12 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
> <soundof...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>>
>> Imagine no atheism
>
> You shouldn't post when you're that high on whatever chemicals you're
> abusing, kid.
I suspect a permanent chemical imbalance and brain lesions.
The Chief Instigator
...and maybe an unoccupied space between his ears?
polymer
> On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:04:10 -0600, polymer <pol...@operamail.com>
> wrote:
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:01:08 +0000, The Chief Instigator wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:36:12 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet
>>> <soundof...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>>>> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>>>>
>>>> Imagine no atheism
>>>
>>> You shouldn't post when you're that high on whatever chemicals you're
>>> abusing, kid.
>>
>> I suspect a permanent chemical imbalance and brain lesions.
>
> ...and maybe an unoccupied space between his ears?
Or muscles! Muscles -- Ear to Ear! [Firesign Theatre]
The Chief Instigator
Uff da...you'd have to remind me of that. ;-)
Larry
4e2a-bd09-e...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com:
> Imagine no atheism
>
We don't have to imagine it. Take a look!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crusades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_burning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch_trials
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing
Serbia? Kosovo? Bosnia? Any bells besides church going off?
Is this what you want, a return to the religious armagheddon of the Middle
Ages?
I think NOT.
--
Larry
Atheism = ENLIGHTENMENT, LOGIC, REASON!
Larry
@mid.individual.net:
> So, for those to whom the allusion is not obvious, what did Bush mean
> when he referred to Gog and Magog? Gog and Magog appear in the prophetic
> Book of Ezekiel 38-39, and the section is open to various
> interpretations. Gog is the human personification of evil who will lead
> a multinational invasion of Israel from the north and be defeated, with
> great violence, by God, who will restore Israel's security. Magog refers
> to the land from which Gog hails. To George Bush, Gog and Magog probably
> meant the ultimate future battle between the forces of good and the
> forces of evil, a battle that had been predicted more than 2,500 years
> earlier, but whose time had finally come.
>
This is within the realm of reality. Bush is, after all, a member of
several really crazy cults....Freemason 32nd degree, Skull & Bones at Yale,
Bohemian Grove where the cult burns an Owl-like figure dressed in robes,
etc.
All this is steeped in religion, VERY DEEP in religion....Devil-worship!
--
Larry
Larry
news:dr39f5pv64k5pt811...@4ax.com:
Ah, how convenient it all is to forget the founders of the Soviet Union
were JEWS!
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-USSR.html
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-CIS.html
It's still going on....today!
--
Larry
Leonis Wulf
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> Imagine no atheism
>
>
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She is
> the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the idea
> that there is a God. She sees herself as being involved in a struggle
> of Reason against Superstition, and is a great believer in autonomy,
> the right to die, abortion rights, and deplores the influence of the
> churches in society, which she seems to think is very great. Shame it
> wasn't great enough to stop Blair's illegal war in Iraq when the
> Catholic, Anglican and free church leaders begged the prime minister
> not to do it.
>
> Stalin and Hitler, men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
> religion with it's teachings about the respect due to the individual
> (and, he didn't but might have said, the fear of facing a righteous
> God at Judgement Day with bloodstained hands) offer some restraints
> against such 'scientific atheism' and other irreligious philosophy
Hey you raise some very valid points but despite not being an atheism I
should point out the crusades and the knights templar on the part about
religions not being responsible for large numbers of dead.
ZerkonXXXX
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee
Touting or attacking religion by using historical celebrities to validate
one position or another is a dead end in that it immediately become a
battle between cheery pickers.
David Johnston
>Ah, how convenient it all is to forget the founders of the Soviet Union
>were JEWS!
Lenin was Russian Orthodox.
Stalin was a dropout from a Georgian Orthodox seminary.
Puck Greenman
>http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
>Imagine no atheism
Oh, I have, child, and reason leads me to conclude that the only way to eradicate atheism,
is to eradicate, superstition, and ignorance.
Alternatively, produce a god.
Puck Greenman
>On 6 Nov, 14:53, Sir Frederick <mmcne...@fuzzysys.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:36:12 -0800 (PST), Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>>
>> >Imagine no atheism
>>
>> >http://www.questiondarwin.com
>>
>> Imagine, people taking the virtual reality or representations
>> produced by their brain processes, as reality!
>
>
>And brain processes are in the virtual reality or the real reality?
Yes.
Larry
http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Vladimir_Lenin.html
Of course, Marx, born in the Rhineland in 1818 was the grandson of a
rabbi.
In:
The Jews in the Soviet Union Since 1917, by Nora Levin; The Jews of the
Soviet Union, by Benjamin Pinkus
Reviewed by Richard Pipes
"As czarist Russia disintegrated, the Jews found themselves in a tragic
predicament. To the conservatives, they were a disloyal and subversive
element; to the radicals they represented a doomed social class. Neither
group was prepared to allow them an environment in which to preserve
their identity.
The anti-Semitism of the White armies during the Civil War forced
Russia's Jews to seek the protection of the Communists, who, whatever
their long-term designs, opposed pogroms and defended them from the
rabble. This had the effect of branding Jews not only in Russia but also
abroad as Communists. The immense popularity in the 1920's of the
Protocols of the Elders of Zion was the direct consequence of the
perception that Jews used Communism to realize their alleged ambition of
destroying Christian society and taking over the world. Carried to
Germany by Russian �migr�s, this lunatic idea furnished Hitler with a
rationale for his biological Judeophobia."
Most interesting....
Please note that the last quote is from Nora Levin and Benjamin Pinkus.
These authors are not Presbyterians.....
--
Larry
Quadibloc
wrote:
> It is a tragedy that influential journalists like Polly Toynbee are
> able to get away with calling themselves rational while making flip
> comments asserting that the 150 million plus deaths caused by
> secularist philosophies when they got into power in the 20th century
> were matched by similar atrocities caused by the church. Of course she
> did not offer any examples as there aren't any which bear examination.
Nobody *remembers* the Spanish Inquisition!
John Savard
David Johnston
>David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote in
>news:ac8bf5tuubnusm99f...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:42:32 +0000, Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Ah, how convenient it all is to forget the founders of the Soviet
>Union
>>>were JEWS!
>>
>> Lenin was Russian Orthodox.
>>
>> Stalin was a dropout from a Georgian Orthodox seminary.
>>
>
>http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Vladimir_Lenin.html
>
Maternal grandfather? By that standard every caucasian on Earth is a
Jew. We all have some ancestor who was Jewish. But you don't get to
be a Jew by having a Jewish maternal grandfather.
James A. Donald
> wrote:
> > It is a tragedy that influential journalists like Polly Toynbee are
> > able to get away with calling themselves rational while making flip
> > comments asserting that the 150 million plus deaths caused by
> > secularist philosophies when they got into power in the 20th century
> > were matched by similar atrocities caused by the church. Of course she
> > did not offer any examples as there aren't any which bear examination.
Quadibloc
> Nobody *remembers* the Spanish Inquisition!
Which inquisition killed a few thousand people.
If there was any communist ruler who had only killed a mere few
thousand people, you lot would think he was the second coming of
Ghandi.
The fact that people remember the Spanish Inquisition shows how hard
up they are for examples of Christian intolerance.
Hannele
But having a Jewish maternal grandmother does the trick.
--
Hannele, A.A #2211
George
> On Nov 6, 7:36 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
>
> > wrote:
> > > It is a tragedy that influential journalists like Polly Toynbee are
> > > able to get away with calling themselves rational while making flip
> > > comments asserting that the 150 million plus deaths caused by
> > > secularist philosophies when they got into power in the 20th century
> > > were matched by similar atrocities caused by the church. Of course she
> > > did not offer any examples as there aren't any which bear examination.
>
> Quadibloc
>
> > Nobody *remembers* the Spanish Inquisition!
>
> Which inquisition killed a few thousand people.
Make that a few hundred thousand christians and a few millions of
other creeds and nationalities
> If there was any communist ruler who had only killed a mere few
> thousand people, you lot would think he was the second coming of
> Ghandi.
>
> The fact that people remember the Spanish Inquisition shows how hard
> up they are for examples of Christian intolerance.
Okay. How about book banning, the many progroms against the Jewish
people over the centuries i.e The massacre at York.
The refusal by the catholic church for their adherants to have birth
control thus leading to (in Africa and South America) untold misery of
hunger and early death.
Don't make such a silly claim as others who take an interest in such
subjects will drown you with examples.
fasgnadh
> On Nov 8, 7:16 pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
>> The fact that people remember the Spanish Inquisition shows how hard
>> up they are for examples of Christian intolerance.
Precisely. The crimes committed in the MEDIEVAL period,
where all societies were ignorant and brutal are insignificant
compared to the death toll of the atheist holocuasts in just the
last 100 years!! Over 70,000,000 people were killed by the atheist
regimes of Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao.
Far more than any religion in it's entire history.
The only rational basis would be death toll/ million ruled /year.
Then we would clearly see that every great and enduring civilisation,
based on Spiritual principles, were all a boon to humanity, and every
atheist regime was a totalitarian tyranny which failed catastrophically.
The historical evidence is compelling.. the arguments of atheists
is always without peer reviewed historical evidence and is mere opinion:
> Okay. How about book banning, the many progroms against the Jewish
> people over the centuries i.e The massacre at York.
Where's your peer reviewed historical evidence? Mine is below
> The refusal by the catholic church for their adherants to have birth
> control thus leading to (in Africa and South America) untold misery of
> hunger and early death.
Sure, but that is as you say, 'untold'.. you present no figures,
and it certainly is nowhere near 70,000,000 AND it is the result
of individual choices.
> Don't make such a silly claim as others who take an interest in such
> subjects will drown you with examples.
You may have wet yourself, but you have not produced any evidence
whatsoever, let alone data for comparison with the atheist holocuasts,
all in the 'modern'(sic) era.. not Medieval times.
Atheists tortured and killed tens of millions of their women;
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#RCW
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#ww2ussr
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Mao
First, Lenin's Red Terror, Atheism in praxis;
# Russian Civil War (1917-22): 9 000 000 [make link]
* Eckhardt: 500,000 civ. + 300,000 mil. = 800,000
* Readers Companion to Military History, Cowley and Parker, eds.
(1996)
[http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/mil/html/mh_045400_russiancivil.htm]:
o Combat deaths: 825,000
o Ancillary deaths: 2,000,000
o TOTAL: 2,825,000
* Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998)
o Civil War and Volga Famine (1918-22): 3,000,000 to 5,000,000
* Brzezinski, Z:
o 6 to 8 million people died under Lenin from war, famine etc.
* Mastering Twentieth Century Russian History by Norman Lowe (2002)
o TOTAL: 7,000,000 to 10,000,000
o Red Army
+ Battle: 632,000
+ Disease: 581,000
o Whites: 1,290,000 battle + disease
o White Terror: "tens of thousands"
o Red Terror
+ Executed: 50-200,000
+ Died in prison or killed in revolts: 400,000
o Typhoid + typhus
+ 1919: 890,000
+ 1920: >1M
* Urlanis:
o Military deaths: 800,000
+ Battle deaths, all sides: 300,000
+ Dead of wounds: 50,000
+ Disease: 450,000
o Civilians: 8,000,000
o TOTAL: 8,800,000
* Dyadkin, I.G. (cited in Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993)
o 9 million unnatural deaths from terror, famine and disease,
1918-23
* Richard Pipes, A concise history of the Russian Revolution
(1995): 9 million deaths, 1917-1922
o Famine: 5M
o Combat: 2M
+ Reds: 1M
+ Whites: 127,000
o Epidemics: 2M
o not incl.
+ Emigration: 2M
+ Birth deficit: 14M
* Rummel:
o Civil War (1917-22)
+ War: 1,410,000 (includes 500,000 civilian)
+ Famine: 5,000,000 (50% democidal)
+ Other democide: 784,000
+ Epidemics: 2,300,000
+ Total: 9,494,000
o Lenin's Regime (1917-24)
+ Rummel blames Lenin for a lifetime total of 4,017,000
democides.
* Figes, Orlando (A People's Tragedy: A History of the Russian
Revolution, 1997)
o 10 million deaths from war, terror, famine and disease.
+ Including...
# Famine (1921-22): 5 million
# Killed in fighting, both military and civilian: 1M
# Jews killed in pogroms: 150,000
+ Not including...
# Demographic effects of a hugely reduced
birth-rate: 10M
# Emmigration: 2M
* McEvedy, Colin (Atlas of World Population History, 1978)
o War deaths: 2M
o Other excess deaths: 14M
o Reduced births: 10M
o Emmigration: 2M
* MEDIAN: Of these ten estimates that claim to be complete, the
median is 8.8M-9.0M.
* PARTIALS:
o Small & Singer (battle deaths, 1917-21)
+ Russian Civil War (Dec.1917-Oct.1920)
# Russians: 500,000
# Allied Intervention:
* Japan: 1,500
* UK: 350
* USA: 275
* France: 50
* Finland: 50
+ Russian Nationalities War (Dec.1917-Mar.1921)
# USSR: 50,000
o Bruce Lincoln, Red Victory: a History of the Russian Civil
War 1918-1921
+ Death sentences by the Cheka: ca. 100,000
+ Pogroms: as many as one in 13 Jews k. out of 1.5M in
Ukraine [i.e. ca. 115,000] (citing Heifetz)
o Nevins, citing Heifetz and the Red Cross: 120,000 Jews
killed in 1919 pogroms [http://www.west.net/~jazz/felshtin/redcross.html]
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): Cheka responsible for
maybe 250,000+ violent deaths.
o Paul Johnson
+ 50,000 death sentences imposed by the Cheka by 12/20
+ 100,000 Jews killed in 1919
o Green, Barbara (in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?)
+ 4 to 5 million deaths in the famine of 1921-23
o Max Boot, The Savage Wars of Peace
+ North Russia: 244 USAns d. incl. 144 k.battle
+ Siberia: 160 USAns KIA + 168 other d.
+ [US Total: 304 KIA + 268 other = 572 d.]
+ Czech Legion: 13,000 dead.
# Soviet Union, Stalin's regime (1924-53): 20 000 000 [make link]
* There are basically two schools of thought when it comes to the
number who died at Stalin's hands. There's the "Why doesn't anyone
realize that communism is the absolutely worst thing ever to hit the
human race, without exception, even worse than both world wars, the
slave trade and bubonic plague all put together?" school, and there's
the "Come on, stop exaggerating. The truth is horrifying enough without
you pulling numbers out of thin air" school. The two schools are
generally associated with the right and left wings of the political
spectrum, and they often accuse each other of being blinded by
prejudice, stubbornly refusing to admit the truth, and maybe even having
a hidden agenda. Also, both sides claim that recent access to former
Soviet archives has proven that their side is right.
* Here are a few illustrative estimates from the Big Numbers school:
o Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993 cites these:
+ Chistyakovoy, V. (Neva, no.10): 20 million killed
during the 1930s.
+ Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika
neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million
"unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
+ Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
o Davies, Norman (Europe A History, 1998): c. 50 million
killed 1924-53, excluding WW2 war losses. This would divide (more or
less) into 33M pre-war and 17M after 1939.
o Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of
which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years. This divides up into:
+ 1923-29: 2,200,000 (plus 1M non-democidal famine deaths)
+ 1929-39: 15,785,000 (plus 2M non-democidal famine)
+ 1939-45: 18,157,000
+ 1946-54: 15,613,000 (plus 333,000 non-democidal famine)
+ TOTAL: 51,755,000 democides and 3,333,000 non-demo.
famine
o William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and
Eastern Europe: 50M+
o Wallechinsky: 13M (1930-32) + 7M (1934-38)
+ Cited by Wallechinsky:
# Medvedev, Roy (Let History Judge): 40 million.
# Solzhenitsyn, Aleksandr: 60 million.
o MEDIAN: 51 million for the entire Stalin Era; 20M during
the 1930s.
* And from the Lower Numbers school:
o Nove, Alec ("Victims of Stalinism: How Many?" in J. Arch
Getty (ed.) Stalinist Terror: New Perspectives, 1993): 9,500,000
"surplus deaths" during the 1930s.
o Cited in Nove:
+ Maksudov, S. (Poteri naseleniya SSSR, 1989): 9.8
million abnormal deaths between 1926 and 1937.
+ Tsaplin, V.V. ("Statistika zherty naseleniya v 30e
gody" 1989): 6,600,000 deaths (hunger, camps and prisons) between the
1926 and 1937 censuses.
+ Dugin, A. ("Stalinizm: legendy i fakty" 1989):
642,980 counterrevolutionaries shot 1921-53.
+ Muskovsky Novosti (4 March 1990): 786,098 state
prisoners shot, 1931-53.
o Gordon, A. (What Happened in That Time?, 1989, cited in
Adler, N., Victims of Soviet Terror, 1993): 8-9 million during the 1930s.
o Ponton, G. (The Soviet Era, 1994): cites an 1990 article by
Milne, et al., that excess deaths 1926-39 were likely 3.5 million and at
most 8 million.
o MEDIAN: 8.5 Million during the 1930s.
* As you can see, there's no easy compromise between the two
schools. The Big Numbers are so high that picking the midpoint between
the two schools would still give us a Big Number. It may appear to be a
rather pointless argument -- whether it's fifteen or fifty million, it's
still a huge number of killings -- but keep in mind that the population
of the Soviet Union was 164 million in 1937, so the upper estimates
accuse Stalin of killing nearly 1 out of every 3 of his people, an
extremely Polpotian level of savagery. The lower numbers, on the other
hand, leave Stalin with plenty of people still alive to fight off the
German invasion.
* [Letter]
* Although it's too early to be taking sides with absolute
certainty, a consensus seems to be forming around a death toll of 20
million. This would adequately account for all documented nastiness
without straining credulity:
o In The Great Terror (1969), Robert Conquest suggested that
the overall death toll was 20 million at minimum -- and very likely 50%
higher, or 30 million. This would divide roughly as follows: 7M in
1930-36; 3M in 1937-38; 10M in 1939-53. By the time he wrote The Great
Terror: A Re-assessment (1992), Conquest was much more confident that 20
million was the likeliest death toll.
o Britannica, "Stalinism": 20M died in camps, of famine,
executions, etc., citing Medvedev
o Brzezinski: 20-25 million, dividing roughly as follows: 7M
destroying the peasantry; 12M in labor camps; 1M excuted during and
after WW2.
o Daniel Chirot:
+ "Lowest credible" estimate: 20M
+ "Highest": 40M
+ Citing:
# Conquest: 20M
# Antonov-Ovseyenko: 30M
# Medvedev: 40M
o Courtois, Stephane, Black Book of Communism (Le Livre Noir
du Communism): 20M for the whole history of Soviet Union, 1917-91.
+ Essay by Nicolas Werth: 15M
+ [Ironic observation: The Black Book of Communism
seems to vote for Hitler as the answer to the question of who's worse,
Hitler (25M) or Stalin (20M).]
o John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for
Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen (2001): 20M, incl.
+ Kulaks: 7M
+ Gulag: 12M
+ Purge: 1.2M (minus 50,000 survivors)
o Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: Russians Remember
Stalin: directly responsible for 20 million deaths.
o Tina Rosenberg, The Haunted Land: Facing Europes Ghosts
After Communism (1995): upwards of 25M
o Time Magazine (13 April 1998): 15-20 million.
* AVERAGE: Of the 17 estimates of the total number of victims of
Stalin, the median is 30 million.
* Individual Gulags etc.
o Kolyma
o Kuropaty
o Vorkuta
o Bykivnia
* Famine, 1926-38
o Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): 4.2M in Ukraine + 1.7M
in Kazakhstan
o Green, Barbara ("Stalinist Terror and the Question of
Genocide: the Great Famine" in Rosenbaum, Is the Holocaust Unique?)
cites these sources for the number who died in the famine:
+ Nove: 3.1-3.2M in Ukraine, 1933
+ Maksudov: 4.4M in Ukraine, 1927-38
+ Mace: 5-7M in Ukraine
+ Osokin: 3.35M in USSR, 1933
+ Wheatcraft: 4-5M in USSR, 1932-33
+ Conquest:
# Total, USSR, 1926-37: 11M
# 1932-33: 7M
# Ukraine: 5M
######################################################################
# Next, just to show it's a CONSISTENT PATTERN in EVERY ATHEIST REGIME,
#
# Mao's Cultural Devolution and Great Leap Backward!
#
######################################################################
# People's Republic of China, Mao Zedong's regime (1949-1975):
40 000 000
* Agence France Press (25 Sept. 1999) citing at length from
Courtois, Stephane, Le Livre Noir du Communism:
o Rural purges, 1946-49: 2-5M deaths
o Urban purges, 1950-57: 1M
o Great Leap Forward: 20-43M
o Cultural Revolution: 2-7M
o Labor Camps: 20M
o Tibet: 0.6-1.2M
o TOTAL: 44.5 to 72M
* Jasper Becker, Hungry Ghosts : Mao's Secret Famine (1996)
o Estimates of the death toll from the Great Leap Forward,
1959-61:
+ Judith Banister, China's Changing Population (1984):
30M excess deaths (acc2 Becker: "the most reliable estimate we have")
+ Wang Weizhi, Contemporary Chinese Population (1988):
19.5M deaths
+ Jin Hui (1993): 40M population loss due to "abnormal
deaths and reduced births"
+ Chen Yizi of the System Reform Inst.: 43-46M deaths
* Brzezinski:
o Forcible collectivization: 27 million peasants
o Cultural Revolution: 1-2 million
o TOTAL: 29 million deaths under Mao
* Daniel Chirot:
o Land reform, 1949-56
+ According to Zhou Enlai: 830,000
+ According to Mao Zedong: 2-3M
o Great Leap Forward: 20-40 million deaths.
o Cultural Revolution: 1-20 million
* Jung Chang, Mao: the Unknown Story (2005)
o Suppression of Counterrevolutionaries, 1950-51:
3M by execution, mob or suicide
o Three-Anti Campaign, 1952-53: 200,000-300,000 suicides
o Great Leap Forward, 1958-61: 38M of starvation and overwork
o Cultural Revolution, 1966-76: > 3M died violent deaths
o Laogai camp deaths, 1949-76: 27M
o TOTAL under Mao: 70M
* Dictionary of 20C World History: around a half million
died in Cultural Rev.
* Eckhardt:
o Govt executes landlords (1950-51): 1,000,000
o Cultural Revolution (1967-68): 50,000
* Gilbert:
o 1958-61 Famine: 30 million deaths.
* Kurt Glaser and Stephan Possony, Victims of Politics (1979):
o They estimate the body count under Mao to be 38,000,000
to 67,000,000.
o Cited by G & P:
+ Walker Report (see below): 44.3M to 63.8M deaths.
+ The Government Information Office of Taiwan (18 Sept.
1970): 37M deaths in the PRC.
+ A Radio Moscow report (7 Apr. 1969): 26.4M people had
been exterminated in China.
+ (NOTE: Obviously the Soviets and Taiwanese would, as
enemies, be strongly motivated to exaggerate.)
* Guinness Book of World Records:
o Although nowadays they don't come right out and declare Mao
to be the Top Dog in the Mass Killings category, earlier
editions (such as 1978) did, and they cited sources which
are similar, but not identical, to the Glaser & Possony sources:
+ On 7 Apr. 1969 the Soviet government radio reported
that 26,300,000 people were killed in China, 1949-65.
+ In April 1971 the cabinet of the government of Taiwan
reported 39,940,000 deaths for the years 1949-69.
+ The Walker Report (see below): between 32,2500,000
and 61,700,000.
* Harff and Gurr:
o KMT cadre, rich peasants, landlords (1950-51):
800,000-3,000,000
o Cultural Revolution (1966-75): 400,000-850,000
* John Heidenrich, How to Prevent Genocide: A Guide for
Policymakers, Scholars, and the Concerned Citizen:
27M death toll, incl. 2M in Cultural Revolution
* Paul Johnson doesn't give an overall total, but he gives
estimates for the principle individual mass dyings of the Mao years:
o Land reform, first years of PRC: at least 2 million people
perished.
o Great Leap Forward: "how many millions died ...
is a matter of conjecture."
o Cultural Revolution: 400,000, calling the 3 Feb. 1979
estimate by Agence France Presse, "The most widely respected figure".
* Meisner, Maurice, Mao's China and After (1977, 1999), doesn't
give an overall total either, but he does give estimates for the three
principle mass dyings of the Mao years:
o Terror against the counterrevolutionaries: 2 million people
executed during the first three years of the PRC.
o Great Leap Forward: 15-30 million famine-related deaths.
o Cultural Revolution: 400,000, citing a 1979 estimate by
Agence France Presse.
* R. J. Rummel:
o Estimate:
+ Democide: 34,361,000 (1949-75)
# The principle episodes being...
* All movements (1949-58): 11,813,000
o incl. Land Reform (1949-53): 4,500,000
* Cult. Rev. (1964-75): 1,613,000
* Forced Labor (1949-75): 15,000,000
* Great Leap Forward (1959-63): 5,680,000
democides
+ War: 3,399,000
+ Famine: 34,500,000
# Great Leap Forward: 27M famine deaths
+ TOTAL: 72,260,000
o Cited in Rummel:
+ Li, Cheng-Chung (Republic of China, 1979): 78.86M
direct/indirect deaths.
+ World Anti-Communist League, True Facts of Maoist
Tyranny (1971): 64.5M
+ Glaser & Possony: 38 to 67M (see above)
+ Walker Report, 1971 (see below): 31.75M to 58.5M
casualties of Communism (excluding Korean War).
+ Current Death Toll of International Communism (1979):
39.9M
+ Stephen R. Shalom (1984), Center for Asian Studies,
Deaths in China Due To Communism: 3M to 4M death toll,
excluding famine.
* Walker, Robert L., The Human Cost of Communism in China (1971,
report to the US Senate Committee of the Judiciary)
"Casualties to Communism" (deaths):
o 1st Civil War (1927-36): .25-.5M
o Fighting during Sino-Japanese War (1937-45): 50,000
o 2nd Civil War (1945-49): 1.25M
o Land Reform prior to Liberation: 0.5-1.0M
o Political liquidation campaigns: 15-30M
o Korean War: 0.5-1.234M
o Great Leap Forward: 1-2M
o Struggle with minorities: 0.5-1.0M
o Cultural Revolution: .25-.5M
o Deaths in labor camps: 15-25M
o TOTAL: 34.3M to 63.784M
o TOTAL FOR PRC: 32M to 59.5M
* July 17, 1994, Washington Post (Great Leap Forward 1959-61)
o Shanghai University journal, Society: > 40 million
o Cong Jin: 40 million
o Chen Yizi: 43 million in the famine. 80 million total as a
result of Mao's policies.
* Weekly Standard, 29 Sept. 1997, "The Laogai Archipelago" by D.
Aikman:
o Between 1949 and 1997, 50M prisoners passed through the
labor camps, and 15,000,000 died (citing Harry Wu)
* WHPSI: 1,633,319 political executions and 25,961 deaths from
political violence, 1948-77. TOTAL: 1,659,280
* Analysis: If we line up the 14 sources which claim to be
complete, the median falls in the 45.75 to 52.5 million
range, so you probably can't go wrong picking a final
number from this neighborhood.
Depending on how you want to count some of the incomplete
estimates (such as Becker and Meisner) and whether to count a
source twice (or thrice, as with Walker) if it's referenced by
two different authorities, you can slide the median up and
down the scale by many millions. Keep in mind, however, that
official Chinese records are hidden from scrutiny,
so most of these numbers are pure guesses. It's pointless
to get attached to any one of them, because the real number
could easily be half or twice any number here.
* Perhaps a better way of estimating would be to add up the
individual components. The medians here are:
o Purges, etc. during the first few years: 2M (10 estimates)
o Great Leap Forward: 31-33M (14 estimates)
o Cultural Revolution: 1M (13 estimates)
o Ethnic Minorities, primarily Tibetans: 750-900T
(8 estimates, see below)
o Labor Camps: 20M (5 estimates)
o This produces a total of some 54,750,000 to 56,900,000
deaths. The weak link in this calculation is in the
Labor Camp numbers for which we only have 5 estimates.
* Notice that many early body counts (such as Walker) completely
miss the famine during the Great Leap Forward, which was
largely unknown in the west until around 1980. There are two
contradictory ways to assess those early estimates which
ignore the famine:
1. "If these are the numbers that they came up with without
the famine, imagine how high the true number will be
once you add the famine deaths."
2. "Can we trust any of these numbers? After all, if they
missed such a huge famine, they can't have known very much
about what was going on inside China."
* ... so this line of reasoning will get us nowhere. In fact, the
median of the 7 estimate that predate 1980 is 45.7M, which is
almost the same as the median of the 7 estimates that post-date
1980 -- 58M. (At this scale, a 12M difference counts as "almost
the same".)
Now, remember, these are the CITIZENS of those atheist shitholes being
killed by the Atheist regimes who made their lives such misery and
despair that when the atheist regimes crumbled from their own evil and
incompetence, the people could not wait to shuck off the filthy atheist
shitpigs and their nightmare.. and embrace a path more tolerant of
religion.. since then their nations have prospered.. still suffering
the deep scars of atheist abuse, but once more part of Civilisation and
making progress!!
Now, all you have to do is show similar EVIDENCE.. not your IDIOTIC
OPINIONS, or those of some other atheist cretin.. that countries like
the USA, which Prints "In God We Trust" on it's money, is in any way
such a murderous tyranny, torturing terrorising and murdering over
20,000,000 of it's citizens!
Off you go you snivelling atheist fraud!
--
alt.atheism FAQ:
http://altatheismfaq.blogspot.com/
http://groups.google.com.au/group/alt.atheism/msg/7c0978c14fd4ed37?hl=en&dmode=source
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8295?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:8290?context=latest
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest
"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17475?context=latest
http://www.c96trading.com/Nagant_NKVD_300h.jpg
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01001/Tsar-family_1001874c.jpg
fasgnadh
> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:42:32 +0000, Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah, how convenient it all is to forget the founders of the Soviet Union
>> were JEWS!
Fuck off you moronic anti-semite.
The only thing Hitler ever got right was this:
'Only one thing would have stopped our movement
- if our adversaries had understood its principle
and, from the first day, had smashed with
the utmost brutality the nucleus of our
new movement' -Adolf Hitler
> Lenin was Russian Orthodox.
Lenin was a committed atheist
"Atheism is the natural and inseparable part of Communism."
-Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
"Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism."
- Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin)
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:6348?context=latest
http://www.atheistnexus.org/photo/2182797:Photo:17478?context=latest
"How can you make a revolution without firing squads?"
- Lenin
> Stalin was a dropout from a Georgian Orthodox seminary.
It was the only place anyone could get an education, Stalin
was a committed atheist:
"You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...
all this talk about God is sheer nonsense"
- Stalin
E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin,
Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
Between them, Mao and Pol Pot they terrorised, tortured and killed over
70,000,000 people;
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#RCW
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Stalin
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#ww2ussr
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm#Mao
40 000 000
1959-61:
Now, all you have to do is show similar EVIDENCE.. not some IDIOTIC
OPINIONS, or those of some other atheist cretins.. that countries like
the USA, which Prints "In God We Trust" on it's money, is in any way
such a murderous tyranny, torturing terrorising and murdering over
20,000,000 of it's citizens!
Off you go ... lets see some peer-reviewed historical evidence from
atheists!
fasgnadh
> David Johnston <da...@block.net> wrote in
> news:ac8bf5tuubnusm99f...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:42:32 +0000, Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ah, how convenient it all is to forget the founders of the Soviet
> Union
>>> were JEWS!
>> Lenin was Russian Orthodox.
>>
>> Stalin was a dropout from a Georgian Orthodox seminary.
>>
>
> http://www.adherents.com/people/pl/Vladimir_Lenin.html
>
> Of course, Marx, born in the Rhineland in 1818 was the grandson of a
> rabbi.
Oh, the grandson of a rabbi! 8^o
But they are all descendents of Africans!
Why blame the Jooz, Adolf.. you are all Effrikans! B^D
> The immense popularity in the 1920's of the
> Protocols of the Elders of Zion
Anyone who quotes that fabrication as evidence of anything except
rabid anti-semitism is an anti semite and the only thing Hitler ever
got right is how we should deal with rabid bigots:
'Only one thing would have stopped our movement
- if our adversaries had understood its principle
and, from the first day, had smashed with
the utmost brutality the nucleus of our
new movement' -Adolf Hitler
"If you see a Nazi, walking down the street,
don't be shy, walk right up
and knock him off his feet!" - Fasgnadh Levin
fasgnadh
You sound like an atheist.. every atheist regime did just that!
over 70,000,000 victims of atheist tyranny;
# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism#Wolak2004
#
# "State atheism is the official promotion of atheism
# by a government, typically by active suppression of
# religious freedom and practice."
# - "Protest for Religious Rights in the USSR:
# Characteristics and Consequences,
# David Kowalewski,
# Russian Review, Vol. 39, No. 4 (Oct., 1980), pp. 426-441,
#
#
# "An atheist, Pol Pot suppressed Cambodia�s Buddhist religion:
# monks were defrocked; temples and artifacts, including statues of
# Buddha, were destroyed; and people praying or expressing
# other religious sentiments were often killed.
# ...the government emptied the cities through mass evacuations
# and sent people to the countryside. Cambodians were overworked
# and underfed on collective farms, often succumbing to disease or
# starvation as a result. Spouses were separated and family meals
# prohibited in order to steer loyalties toward the state
# instead of the family.
#
# About 1.7 million Cambodians, or about 20 percent of the population,
# were worked, starved, or beaten to death under Pol Pot�s regime."
# - http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761579038/pol_pot.html
#
# The Cambodian Genocide:
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/392millones.jpg
#
# "The country's 40,000 to 60,000 Buddhist monks,
# regarded by the regime as social parasites,
# were defrocked and forced into labor brigades.
# Many monks were executed; temples and pagodas were
# destroyed or turned into storehouses or jails.
# Images of the Buddha were defaced and dumped into
# rivers and lakes. People who were discovered praying
# or expressing religious sentiments in other ways
# were often killed.
#
# The Christian and Muslim communities were among the most
# persecuted, as well. The Roman Catholic cathedral of
# Phnom Penh was completely razed.
#
# The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they
# regard as an abomination. Many of those who refused were killed.
# Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed."
# - http://countrystudies.us/cambodia/29.htm
#
# "Forty-eight percent of Cambodia's Christians were killed
# because of their religion."
#
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/communism/communism_photos2/44camboyano.jpg
#
#
# "the state established atheism as the only scientific truth."
# - Daniel Peris,
# "Storming the Heavens: The Soviet League of the Militant Godless"
# Cornell University Press 1998 ISBN 9780801434853
#
#
# "State atheism has been mostly implemented in communist
# countries, such as the former Soviet Union,[1] China,
# Communist Albania, Communist Afghanistan, North Korea,
# Communist Mongolia and Poland under communist rule also
# promoted state atheism and suppressed religion.
# - Forced out: the fate of Polish Jewry in Communist Poland.
# Wolak, Arthur J. p 104
#
# In these nations, the governments viewed atheism as an
# intrinsic part of communist ideology.
James A. Donald
> > > Nobody *remembers* the Spanish Inquisition!
James A. Donald:
> > Which inquisition killed a few thousand people.
George
> Make that a few hundred thousand christians and a few
> millions of other creeds and nationalities
Don't be silly.
<http://www.google.com/books?id=ET8pAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA9-PA21>
: : The number executed the decrees of the
: : Spanish Inquisition was 32,882, in 327 years.
<http://www.google.com/books?id=2nFYAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA5>
: : The unfortunate Albigenses were extirpated
: : with fire and sword, and the death of
: : thousands by massacres, tortures and the
: : funeral pile ....
<http://www.google.com/books?id=aVQEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA263>
: : the cruelties committed by this dreadful
: : tribunal were too frightful to be told ... it
: : has been supposed that between thirty and
: : forty thousand persons were burnt alive
: : before the inquisition was abolished ... the
: : rememberance of the inquisition shall forever
: : cause a stain ...
If the inquisition "forever causes a stain" that should
tell us how extraordinarily tolerant and peaceable
Christianity has been, compared to the other religions
and ideologies that disturb the world.
> Okay. How about book banning, the many progroms
> against the Jewish people over the centuries i.e The
> massacre at York.
You are digging up stuff from centuries ago. I can dig
up considerably worse stuff from last few years.
How the crimes of the Islamic Salvation Army? You have
never heard of the Islamic Salvation Army? My point
exactly.
How about all the people crucified by Runda Kumpulan
Kecil. There is probably someone being crucified as I
write this, and someone else being crucified when you
read this. You did not know that crucifixions of
infidels are still happening? My point exactly.
Last thursday an Islamist murdered a dozen of his fellow
soldiers at fort hood for Islam. Have Christians
responded by burning mosques? The balance between the
crimes of Christendom and the crimes of other religious
and political movements, is pretty much the same today
as it has been for the past thousand years.
> The refusal by the catholic church for their adherants
> to have birth control thus leading to (in Africa and
> South America) untold misery of hunger and early
> death.
If we do have an overpopulation problem, the tree hugger
program of converting food into fuel has vastly more
impact that the Roman Catholic objection to birth
control.
We do not have an overpopulation problem. The alleged
overpopulation is invented to justify the murderous
programs of the tree huggers, for example the
suppression of DDT which causes the deaths of millions
each year.
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> Shrikeback wrote:
> > On Nov 6, 6:36 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
> >>
> >> Imagine no atheism
> >
> > Ja! Ja! First ve line zem up, zen ve shoot zem!
>
> You sound like an atheist.. every atheist regime did just that!
That regime was the Nazi one which was, at least nominally, Christian.
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > The immense popularity in the 1920's of the
> > Protocols of the Elders of Zion
>
> Anyone who quotes that fabrication as evidence of anything except
> rabid anti-semitism is an anti semite and the only thing Hitler ever
> got right is how we should deal with rabid bigots
Since Fasgnadh has revealed himself so frequently as a rabid bigot
against the sanity of agnostic atheism, according to his above diatribe
he should then be quite willing to accept Hitler's solution applied to
himself.
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> George wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 7:16 pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> >
> >> The fact that people remember the Spanish Inquisition shows how hard
> >> up they are for examples of Christian intolerance.
But Catholic tolerance, of pederastic priests, is quite as evil and
quite up to date.
>
> Precisely. The crimes committed in the MEDIEVAL period
There are crimes committed today by Fundametalists, like the killing of
women who do not obey oppressive fundy Islamic rules.
And religious wars still flourish in Africa.
> Then we would clearly see
THE BOTTOM LINE: EVERYONE, except possibly members of a clearly majority
religion in a nation, prefers his or her nation to have a STRONGLY
SECULAR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT.
Once having that, that nation's distribution of religiousity is almost
entirely IRRELEVANT.
>
> The historical evidence is compelling.
EVERYONE, except possibly members of a clearly majority religion in a
nation, prefers his or her nation to have a STRONGLY SECULAR DEMOCRATIC
GOVERNMENT
> > Okay. How about book banning, the many progroms against the Jewish
> > people over the centuries i.e The massacre at York.
>
> > The refusal by the catholic church for their adherants to have birth
> > control thus leading to (in Africa and South America) untold misery of
> > hunger and early death.
Not to mention making the AIDS epidemic uncontollable there.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." --- Mark Twain"
I don�t think God exists, but if He does I�m glad that He�ll be my
judge instead of His followers"
"Every time I see a rainbow, I remember that it�s God�s way of saying
"I�m sorry, and I promise I won�t kill every living thing on Earth ever
again. Honest.�"
"Jesus was the bastard child of an unwed mother" -unknown
"The only problem with Baptists is that they don�t hold them under long
enough" -unknown
"If there�s no God, then who pops up the next Kleenex?" -unknown
"To you I�m an atheist; to God, I�m the loyal opposition" -Woody Allen?
"An agnostic is an atheist without the courage of his convictions" -
Woody Allen?
"Just in terms of allocation of time resources, religion is not very
efficient. There's a lot more I could be doing on a Sunday morning." -
Bill Gates
"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things
and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil
things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
"What a queer thing is Christian salvation! Believing in firemen will
not save a burning house; believing in doctors will not make one well,
but believing in a savior saves men. Fudge!" -Lemuel Washburn
"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers
that may never be questioned." -Author Unknown
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the
point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The
happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality." -George
Bernard Shaw
"A myth is a religion in which no one any longer believes." -James
Feibleman
"In Heaven all the interesting people are missing." -Friedrich Nietzsche
"I viewed my fellow man not as a fallen angel, but as a risen ape." -
Desmond Morris
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from
religious conviction." -Blaise Pascal
"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could
never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian
dogma." -Abraham Lincoln
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." -Thomas
Jefferson
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the
Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the
Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my
own church." -Thomas Paine
"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and
to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and
his children are smart." -Henry Mencken
"Puritanism - the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be
happy." -Henry Mencken
"What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into
his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a
man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will
scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will
refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something
which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he
will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is
explained in this way." -Bertrand Russell
"Where knowledge ends, religion begins." -Benjamin Disraeli
"The most ridiculous concept ever perpetrated by Homo Sapiens is that
the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of the Universes, wants the
saccharine adoration of his creations, that he can be persuaded by their
prayers, and becomes petulant if he does not receive this flattery. Yet
this ridiculous notion, without one real shred of evidence to bolster
it, has gone on to found one of the oldest, largest and least productive
industries in history." -Robert Heinlein
"I do not think that the real reason why people accept religion is
anything to do with argumentation. They accept religion on emotional
grounds. One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack
religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not
noticed it." -Bertrand Russell
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." -Napoleon
Bonaparte
"Hell is an outrage on humanity. When you tell me that your deity made
you in his image, I reply that he must have been very ugly." -Victor
Hugo
"Religion to me has always been the wound, not the bandage." -Dennis
Potter
"Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the
incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the
absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains." -Robert G. Ingersoll
"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would
indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment
and hope of reward after death." -Albert Einstein
"Religion is fundamentally opposed to everything I hold in veneration -
courage, clear thinking, honesty, fairness, and, above all, love of the
truth." -Henry Mencken
"Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and
common sense." -Francois Marie Arouet (Voltaire)
"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." -Napoleon
Bonaparte
"Our hope of immortality does not come from any religions, but nearly
all religions come from that hope." -Robert G. Ingersoll
"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to
claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." -Cardinal Bellarmine
Virgil
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> David Johnston wrote:
> > On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 06:42:32 +0000, Larry <no...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Ah, how convenient it all is to forget the founders of the Soviet Union
> >> were JEWS!
>
> Fuck off you moronic anti-semite.
Then Fasgnadh, as an even more vicious critic of Lenin as founder of the
USSR must be even more anti-Semitic.
> > Lenin was Russian Orthodox.
>
>
> Lenin was a committed atheist
Lenin took a necessary political position to gut the anti-revolutionary
activities of the Russian Church which was in an incestuous relation
with the Tsardom.
The evidence of nations with modern STRONGLY SECULAR DEMOCRATIC
GOVERNMENTS shows that religion is no longer of any benefit to humanity.
--
As a criterion for livability, being a MAJORITY RELIGIOUS SOCIETY is irrelevant
to atheists and agnostics, and even to theists unless their own religion is
dominant. What is highly relevant is having a SECULAR DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT
which protects everyone from unwanted religious pressures.
George
> Quadibloc
>
> > Okay. How about book banning, the many progroms
> > against the Jewish people over the centuries i.e The
> > massacre at York.
>
> You are digging up stuff from centuries ago. I can dig
> up considerably worse stuff from last few years.
You made a claim that christians were notthe attackers.
They were and they still are
>
> How the crimes of the Islamic Salvation Army? You have
> never heard of the Islamic Salvation Army? My point
> exactly.
>
Racist claptrap deleted
> > The refusal by the catholic church for their adherants
> > to have birth control thus leading to (in Africa and
> > South America) untold misery of hunger and early
> > death.
>
> If we do have an overpopulation problem, the tree hugger
> program of converting food into fuel has vastly more
> impact that the Roman Catholic objection to birth
> control.
>
> We do not have an overpopulation problem. The alleged
> overpopulation is invented to justify the murderous
> programs of the tree huggers, for example the
> suppression of DDT which causes the deaths of millions
> each year.
Does the roman catholic church advocate against birth control?
Yes or no?
You're probably not aware of it but there are alternatives to DDT.
But the countries where the mosquito spread malaria killing millions
each year are proudly catholic.
William December Starr
Sound of Trumpet <soundof...@dcemail.com> violated somebody
else's copyright and posted:
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> Imagine no atheism
>
> http://www.questiondarwin.com
>
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She
> is the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the
> idea that there is a God.
Well he _is_ a pretty evil bastard, as described by his most ardent
followers.
-- wds
James A. Donald
> > You are digging up stuff from centuries ago. I can
> > dig up considerably worse stuff from last few years.
George
> You made a claim that christians were notthe
> attackers. They were and they still are
I made the claim that the crusades were a response to
Islamic aggression. I did not make the claim that
Christians had committed no crimes at all, merely that
their crimes were mighty small stuff compared those
other religions and ideologies.
> > How about the crimes of the Islamic Salvation Army?
> > You have never heard of the Islamic Salvation Army?
> > My point exactly.
> Racist claptrap deleted
I see - so an enumeration of recent crimes committed by
other religions is racist claptrap? Is Islam a race
now?
> > We do not have an overpopulation problem. The
> > alleged overpopulation is invented to justify the
> > murderous programs of the tree huggers, for example
> > the suppression of DDT which causes the deaths of
> > millions each year.
> You're probably not aware of it but there are
> alternatives to DDT.
All the alternatives to DDT are unacceptably expensive,
and those that have similar effectiveness against
malarial mosquitoes are unacceptably dangerous to humans
as well as unacceptably expensive. DDT was banned not
because of its danger, but because of its safety -
because it was feasible and safe to use it in ways whose
effectiveness horrified the tree huggers, because its
cheapness and harmlessness to humans made it feasible to
apply it in ways that devastated competing life forms.
Whenever you anoint yourself with DEET, you are
absorbing far more toxins than if you anointed youself
with a similarly effective dose of DDT - which is
precisely why DEET is legal and DDT is not. You guys
would rather kill humans than mosquitoes.
Yap
> James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>
> > > You are digging up stuff from centuries ago. I can
> > > dig up considerably worse stuff from last few years.
>
> George
>
> > You made a claim that christians were notthe
> > attackers. They were and they still are
>
> I made the claim that the crusades were a response to
> Islamic aggression. I did not make the claim that
> Christians had committed no crimes at all, merely that
> their crimes were mighty small stuff compared those
> other religions and ideologies.
Any one would have thought that Buddhism does not at all caused any
war or killing.
Yet your one stroke claim make you bigotry.
>
> > > How about the crimes of the Islamic Salvation Army?
> > > You have never heard of the Islamic Salvation Army?
> > > My point exactly.
> > Racist claptrap deleted
>
> I see - so an enumeration of recent crimes committed by
> other religions is racist claptrap? Is Islam a race
> now?
religions.
>
> > > We do not have an overpopulation problem. The
> > > alleged overpopulation is invented to justify the
> > > murderous programs of the tree huggers, for example
> > > the suppression of DDT which causes the deaths of
> > > millions each year.
> > You're probably not aware of it but there are
> > alternatives to DDT.
>
> All the alternatives to DDT are unacceptably expensive,
> and those that have similar effectiveness against
> malarial mosquitoes are unacceptably dangerous to humans
> as well as unacceptably expensive. DDT was banned not
> because of its danger, but because of its safety -
> because it was feasible and safe to use it in ways whose
> effectiveness horrified the tree huggers, because its
> cheapness and harmlessness to humans made it feasible to
> apply it in ways that devastated competing life forms.
> Whenever you anoint yourself with DEET, you are
> absorbing far more toxins than if you anointed youself
> with a similarly effective dose of DDT - which is
> precisely why DEET is legal and DDT is not. You guys
> would rather kill humans than mosquitoes.
Why don't you form an advocating group to champion the DDT?
James A. Donald
> > I did not make the claim that
> > Christians had committed no crimes at all, merely that
> > their crimes were mighty small stuff compared those
> > other religions and ideologies.
Yap
> You are so bias.
A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a bunch of his
fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah Akbar". Where is the Christian
equivalent?
Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in Southern Thailand.
Where is the Christian equivalent?
cornholio
> In article <MhGJm.53299$ze1.8...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
>
> fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> > Shrikeback wrote:
> > > On Nov 6, 6:36 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >>http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> > >> Imagine no atheism
>
> > > Ja! Ja! First ve line zem up, zen ve shoot zem!
>
> > You sound like an atheist.. every atheist regime did just that!
>
> That regime was the Nazi one which was, at least nominally, Christian.
Nice try linking Christianity with nazism asshole:
http://www.adherents.com/people/ph/Adolf_Hitler.html
Over a million Christians died fighting the nazis....incl. my
Great Uncle. GFY.
Bill Steele
Does the word "Crusades" ring a bell?
Or "Abortion doctor shot?"
Not to mention "Outlaw gay marriage."
Bill Steele
Guns are an inseparable part of crime. Does that mean all guns are bad?
chazwin
>
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She is
> the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the idea
> of Reason against Superstition, and is a great believer in autonomy,
> the right to die, abortion rights, and deplores the influence of the
> churches in society, which she seems to think is very great. Shame it
> wasn't great enough to stop Blair's illegal war in Iraq when the
> Catholic, Anglican and free church leaders begged the prime minister
> not to do it.
This is what is called disinformation. You are no better then Stalin.
Tony Blair, the monster that brought us into these wars, was led by
his own sense of religious morality. He is quoted as saying that he
considered the wars to be the righteous thing to do, and prayed to god
for guidance.
If he had been an atheist you might have had half a leg to stand on.
Sadly your omnipotent god is responsible for the wars and the
terrorism that spawned them.
>
> The interviewer brought up the 20th century when gentlemen like Mao,
> Stalin and Hitler,
The trouble with their regimes was that they were modelled on
religion. Hitler was a Catholic and had the backing of the Pope.
But once again, I have to ask, where the fuck was your god when he
created Stalin and Hitler?
men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
The lovely Polly would not hurt a fly, and does not support Stalin,
Torquemada, the Pope or any other tyrrant.
> religion and its restrictions, had done so much evil. Didn't organised
> religion with it's teachings about the respect due to the individual
> (and, he didn't but might have said, the fear of facing a righteous
> God at Judgement Day with bloodstained hands) offer some restraints
> against such 'scientific atheism' and other irreligious philosophy
> which was used to justified mass murder? She typically shrugged this
> off and said that religious people were just as bad when they got into
> power. She didn't offer an example so we could compare numbers, the
> assertion was enough evidence for her. Not all atheists were Stalins,
> she said. Agreed, but ONE was-and he and his atheist government
> machine murdered 60 million or more people in the name of the secular
> state and 'progress'. No Christian, compelled by love and restrained
> by the fear of God, has ever or could ever do any such thing.
>
> Atheist state power and Christian state power 'just the same' Polly?
> Really? Hitler's war cost 50 million dead, plus the economic and
> environmental cost, Stalin and Mao are both thought to have rivalled
> or exceeded that number. Roger Bolton didn't even mention Paris-
> educated atheist Pol Pot who murdered a mere 2 million people in
> Cambodia in living memory. These men were all social Darwinists to the
> core, Hitler was a pagan rather than an atheist, and used a form of
> religious language when it suited him, but they all rejected the idea
> that a righteous Creator and Lawgiver God had the authority to order
> and restrain their behaviour-with terrible consequences. Stalin
> abandoned Christianity and embraced atheism after reading Darwin.
> Ideas have consequences.
>
> It is a tragedy that influential journalists like Polly Toynbee are
> able to get away with calling themselves rational while making flip
> comments asserting that the 150 million plus deaths caused by
> secularist philosophies when they got into power in the 20th century
> were matched by similar atrocities caused by the church. Of course she
> did not offer any examples as there aren't any which bear examination.
>
> Polly, nothing you or your mate Dawkins has said convinces me that
> there is not a seed of Stalin in your philosophy which would
> 'liquidate superstition' by all means necessary if you could.
James A. Donald
James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
> > A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a
> > bunch of his fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah
> > Akbar". Where is the Christian equivalent?
> >
> > Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in
> > Southern Thailand. Where is the Christian
> > equivalent?
Bill Steele
> Does the word "Crusades" ring a bell?
The crusades were, for the most part, a response to
Islamic aggression.
The history of the conflict between Islam and
Christendom is a thousand years of land for peace
deals, (for example, the Peace of Vasvar) a thousand
years of state building (for example Hamet Karamanli)
and a thousand years of Muslims violating those deals, a
thousand years of nations that we built attacking us.
Every land for peace deal resulted in the Muslims
attacking once they had the land
The Battle of Saint Gotthard was followed by the Peace
of Vasvár, in which Christendom gave away most of what had
been won, similarly to the aftermath of the six day war,
with the result that Vienna was almost taken in the
Battle of Vienna, while the Battle of Vienna was
followed by sixteen years of hard fighting, regaining
everything that had been lost by the Peace of Vasvár.
The battle of Vienna was a turning point because the
victory was followed up, treated as a basis for war,
rather than a basis for peace. It is often said that
the Battle of Vienna saved the west, but what saved the
west was that people came to the conclusion that there
was no point in making peace with Muslims, that peace
with Islam could only be attained by war against Islam,
because Islam commands its adherents to make peace
treacherously, to violate any peace that they make.
As a result of the Peace of Vasvar, the caliphate damn
near took Vienna, which would have given them most of
Europe. I predict the price of our betrayal of our
friends in Afghanistan and appointing an enemy tyrant,
Karzai, to power will in the end be very high.
Yap
Please look at the larger picture.
1). Just one example, the crusade was a Christian killing episode when
love is supposed to be the center theme.
2). Islam had been the sub-sect of Christianity, so it is the same as
Christianity except that the believers practice much more narrow
religion teaching.
George
Any of the US school shootings
Or any-one of the sects that self immolate
James A. Donald
> > A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a bunch of his
> > fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah Akbar". Where is the Christian
> > equivalent?
> >
> > Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in Southern Thailand.
> > Where is the Christian equivalent?
Yap:
> Please look at the larger picture.
> 1). Just one example, the crusade was a Christian killing episode when
> love is supposed to be the center theme.
The crusades were, for the most part, a response to Islamic
aggression. The disastrous outcome of the oslo land for peace accords
which may well result in the destruction of Israel was prefigured by
the disastrous outcome of the Peace of Vasvar land for peace accords,
which nearly resulted in an Islamic conquest of Europe. Our self
destructive nation building in Afghanistan was prefigured by our self
destructive nation building in Tunisia.
The interaction between Islam and Christendom endlessly repeats the
same pattern of one sided and humiliating Christian pursuit of peace,
and one sided and aggressive Islamic pursuit of dominion and conquest,
and everything that has happened recently, has happened before, over
and over again, Mohammed's massacres of desert caravans prefiguring
the bomb on UTA Flight 772.
For the last thirteen hundred years the interaction between
Christendom and Islam has been for the most part very much what one
would expect from the interaction between a religion whose founder
told his followers to persuade, and a religion whose founder told his
followers to rape, pillage, and kill.
> 2). Islam had been the sub-sect of Christianity,
Not so.
James A. Donald
> > A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a
> > bunch of his fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah
> > Akbar". Where is the Christian equivalent?
> >
> > Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in
> > Southern Thailand. Where is the Christian
> > equivalent?
George:
> Any of the US school shootings
And they cried "For Jesus"?
And the pastor of their church published a blog post
saying how they did the right thing, and all Christians
should emulate them?
Mike Schilling
> James A. Donald:
>>> A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a bunch of his
>>> fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah Akbar". Where is the
>>> Christian
>>> equivalent?
>>>
>>> Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in Southern Thailand.
>>> Where is the Christian equivalent?
>
> Yap:
>> Please look at the larger picture.
>> 1). Just one example, the crusade was a Christian killing episode
>> when love is supposed to be the center theme.
>
> The crusades were, for the most part, a response to Islamic
> aggression.
Especially the Fourth Crusade, right?
Richard Brooks
> On Nov 8, 7:16 pm, James A. Donald <jam...@echeque.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 6, 7:36 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
>>
>> up they are for examples of Christian intolerance.
Well, the last link to it ended in about 1941, so some are still alive
who remember.
sirblob2
> http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> Imagine no atheism
>
> http://www.questiondarwin.com
>
> Just listened to Polly Toynbee on Radio 4 'Sunday' programme. She is
> the new president of the National Secular Society and HATES the idea
> that there is a God. She sees herself as being involved in a struggle
> of Reason against Superstition, and is a great believer in autonomy,
> the right to die, abortion rights, and deplores the influence of the
> churches in society, which she seems to think is very great. Shame it
> wasn't great enough to stop Blair's illegal war in Iraq when the
> Catholic, Anglican and free church leaders begged the prime minister
> not to do it.
you fucking troll, the iraq war was instigated by christian crusade
evangelical bullshit and, besides, it's only money. there's no such
thing as religion per se
>
> The interviewer brought up the 20th century when gentlemen like Mao,
> Stalin and Hitler, men who like Polly Toynbee rejected the idea of
sirblob2
> On Nov 6, 9:36 am, Sound of Trumpet <soundoftrum...@dcemail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >http://questiondarwin.blogspot.com/2007/09/imagine-no-atheism.html
>
> > Imagine no atheism
>
> and it'll vanish.
> Until then, we're here, and theres nothing you can do about that.
>
> PDW
by calling yourselves atheists you actually pander to their moral
panic and their sensibility cuz 'atheism' is just part of their
particular corporation's verbiage and its use goes to their advantage
Puck Greenman
>Tony Blair, the monster that brought us into these wars, was led by
>his own sense of religious morality. He is quoted as saying that he
>considered the wars to be the righteous thing to do, and prayed to god
>for guidance.
Didn't he go footling of to America for a prayerfeist, with the shrub, just before he
announced that he would drag us into this war?
Bill Steele
I'll bet the bullies who drove them to it came from "good Christian
homes.":
James A. Donald
> > The crusades were, for the most part, a response to Islamic
> > aggression.
"Mike Schilling"
> Especially the Fourth Crusade, right?
A result of running out of money with which to address Islamic
aggression. You will recall that as a result of their creative
financing efforts, the entire fourth crusade was excommunicated by the
Pope.
James A. Donald
> > > > A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a
> > > > bunch of his fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah
> > > > Akbar". Where is the Christian equivalent?
> > > >
> > > > Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in
> > > > Southern Thailand. Where is the Christian
> > > > equivalent?
George:
> > > Any of the US school shootings
> > And they cried "For Jesus"?
> >
> > And the pastor of their church published a blog post
> > saying how they did the right thing, and all Christians
> > should emulate them?
Bill Steele
> I'll bet the bullies who drove them to it came from "good Christian
> homes.":
That is a mighty thin connection to Christianity.
Compare with crucifixions of infidels in Thailand, or to Major Nidal
Malik Hasan shooting down a bunch of unarmed people while crying
"Allah Akbar" and being commended by his mullah for doing so
Mike Schilling
> James A. Donald wrote:
>>> The crusades were, for the most part, a response to Islamic
>>> aggression.
>
> "Mike Schilling"
>> Especially the Fourth Crusade, right?
>
> A result of running out of money with which to address Islamic
> aggression.
You are a world champion rationalizer.
Bill Snyder
It's nice to see that even the Duck is good at *something*. Well,
actually, no, it isn't.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank]
Day
>>> Ja! Ja! First ve line zem up, zen ve shoot zem!
>> You sound like an atheist.. every atheist regime did just that!
>
> That regime was the Nazi one which was, at least nominally, Christian.
dragged out to be shot. And as for the Nazis, there was a kind of
neopagan movement to return to the original Aryan religion. too bad they
gave up on it, for the true Aryans would not have cared about the "Jews"
or anything else Jewish scriptures like the Bible go on about.
Neitzsche understood this. Its a testament to the lack of scholarship on
the part of Liberals that the Nazis could claim Nietzsche as a patron
saint, and yet they never mentioned how he said anti-Semites were
buffoons, who go 'around with pointy hoods covering their straw heads',
stirring up all the asinine elements of the nation.
Note as well that Atheism only rants against Levantine religions, and
never take on Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism. This looks like a
strawman to only choose to debate the most asinine religions as if that
is all there are.
Bill Snyder
Nobody in the Albigensian Crusade got excommunicated. I guess
that one was a response to Cathar aggression?
Avoid normal situations.
--
alt.flame Special Forces
"If you're a weird, outcast teenager, keep in mind that the people who are
making your life miserable -- these are the happiest days of their lives. When
you are just starting to come into your own, they'll be settling into their
default careers and default lives, wondering why they're not happy."
-- Poppy Z. Brite
family
Mitchell Holman
dn...@bresnan.com:
> Even better still, imagine no philosophy!
>
>
>
Better yet, imagine no college philosophy professors.
Bliss............
William December Starr
"family" <brit...@bresnan.net> said:
> Even better still, imagine no philosophy!
Imagine a world with no hypothetical cases...
-- wds
Yap
However thin it may be.
So, you can steal USD1 and get away free while other stealing USD1m
goes to jail?
I don't think it works at way.
Michael Gordge
> Guns are an inseparable part of crime.
Not true, fraud involves no guns. Guns are an inseperable part of law
> Does that mean all guns are bad?
The law without guns is meaningless.
MG
Michael Gordge
> "family" <briti...@bresnan.net> wrote in news:Goadne_xUeBcUp3WnZ2dnUVZ_s-
Now how true is that!
They should all be burnt at the stake.
MG
Nic
imagine a world with a group paranoia and no kids?
I'm Methodist from mothers side so no singing or dancing out of
respect for Lord on Sabbath, old fashioned but keep head covered in
the sight of the Lord, no ranxious perversions like having too much
pleasure....they were strict but happy and no adultery! (then iu need
a priest !) 10 commandments all the way?
Mitchell Holman
news:b7248c2e-a92a-4c92...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
> On 16 Nov, 08:33, Michael Gordge <mikegor...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> On Nov 16, 1:18�pm, Mitchell Holman <noem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > "family" <briti...@bresnan.net> wrote in
>> > news:Goadne_xUeBcUp3WnZ2dnUVZ_
> s-
>> > dn...@bresnan.com:
>>
>> > > Even better still, imagine no philosophy!
>>
>> > � �Better yet, imagine no college philosophy professors.
>>
>> > � �Bliss............
>>
>> Now how true is that!
>>
>> They should all be burnt at the stake.
>>
>> MG
>
> imagine a world with a group paranoia and no kids?
>
> I'm Methodist from mothers side so no singing or dancing out of
> respect for Lord on Sabbath, old fashioned but keep head covered in
> the sight of the Lord,
That always puzzled me. "in sight of the Lord"
who sees everything anything anyway.
Nic
>
> - Show quoted text -
sunny weather I woulda somehow guessed? the elements maybe?
Nic
to check out as 'one' sometime? , and then tell me which of those
actually has the human desire to commit adultery, but how, and which
one loves a man and wants to have a babies
Mitchell Holman
news:af052da3-d145-48c8...@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com:
> On 16 Nov, 12:43, Mitchell Holman <noem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> Nic <n.m.ke...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote
>> innews:b7248c2e-a92a-4c92-b335-2303a0
> 593...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 16 Nov, 08:33, Michael Gordge <mikegor...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> >> On Nov 16, 1:18�pm, Mitchell Holman <noem...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> >> > "family" <briti...@bresnan.net> wrote in
>> >> > news:Goadne_xUeBcUp3WnZ2dnUVZ_
>> > s-
>> >> > dn...@bresnan.com:
>>
>> >> > > Even better still, imagine no philosophy!
>>
>> >> > � �Better yet, imagine no college philosophy professors.
>>
>> >> > � �Bliss............
>>
>> >> Now how true is that!
>>
>> >> They should all be burnt at the stake.
>>
>> >> MG
>>
>> > imagine a world with a group paranoia and no kids?
>>
>> > I'm Methodist from mothers side so no singing or dancing out of
>> > respect for Lord on Sabbath, old fashioned but keep head covered in
>> > the sight of the Lord,
>>
>> � � �That always puzzled me. "in sight of the Lord"
>> who sees everything anything anyway.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> sunny weather I woulda somehow guessed? the elements maybe?
Judiasm - men wear hats while in temple, women not.
Christianity - women to wear hats in church, men not.
And both praying to the same god, no doubt.
Go figure..........
Jimbo
>
> - Show quoted text -
In the very old Kentucky Southern Baptist tradition, prior 1850's or
there about, women were not supposed to offend God's ears but were to
petition their husbands, or father if unmarried, for a mention in his
prayer.
Jimbo
> James A. Donald:
>
> > > A few days ago, Major Nidal Malik Hasan shot down a bunch of his
> > > fellow soldiers while shouting "Allah Akbar". Where is the Christian
> > > equivalent?
>
> > > Every day, Muslims crucify several Buddhists in Southern Thailand.
> > > Where is the Christian equivalent?
>
>
> > Please look at the larger picture.
> > 1). Just one example, the crusade was a Christian killing episode when
> > love is supposed to be the center theme.
>
> aggression.
It is amazing that anyone would still put forth this claim in light of
the records of Pope Urban II who called the 1st Crusade specifically
to retake the holy lands, which, by that time, had been in the control
of Islamic forces for some 600 years. If it was in response to
"Islamic aggression", then Urban was a bit slow on the uptake. In
point of fact, however, the Crusaders turned out to be little more
than brutes sent "with God on their side" and who managed to kill
almost as many Christians and Jews, as they did Muslims. It didn't
seem to much matter to them, as long as they could loot and pillage.
Nic
>
> - Show quoted text -
A man cared for me and I feel the same love and closeness for his
children, however as it was my home and my expense....?
whos child is his anyway?
Nic
the sight of the Lord who is responsible for the children there? or
are the two committed for adultery or insovency or, indenct acts or
behavioours in the 'sight of our Lord' eh?
Bill Steele
<55949dd9-303b-4504...@n35g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Nic <n.m....@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > >> > I'm Methodist from mothers side so no singing or dancing out of
> > >> > respect for Lord on Sabbath, old fashioned but keep head covered in
> > >> > the sight of the Lord,
> >
> > >> � � �That always puzzled me. "in sight of the Lord"
> > >> who sees everything anything anyway.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > >> - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > sunny weather I woulda somehow guessed? the elements maybe?
> >
> > � � Judiasm - men wear hats while in temple, women not.
> > � � Christianity - women to wear hats in church, men not.
> >
A wonderful example of how literal reading of the Bible messes things up
when times change. In Biblical times (and today in Islam) a woman is
supposed to cover her head in church because her hair is a secondary
sexual characteristic that distracts men. But in recent times a
woman's"head covering" became a sometimes outlandish hot with flowers,
feathers, the stern of the Queen Mary, etc. Men in those days wore
elaborate headdresses that showed their rank.
Nowadays nobody wears hats except to keep out the cold.
Alan Ford
Yes, but only on Tuesdays from 7:00 AM to 1:30 PM, batteries not
included, count every second shallot. Parsimonious credenza.
--
If you don't beat your meat
You can't have any pudding
How can you have any pudding
If you don't beat your meat?