Why do we like muscular Women?
Anunemouse
I saw the first picture of one while in a store, its been a non-stop quest
of mine to get all the pictures, stories and videos I can. And here is
the kicker.... I dont know why!!! Why am I (we) so turned on by a female
who for the most part looks like a man with a bikini top on? And... why
am I so scared to death of being known to like such women? When my
girlfriend comes over, I'm always so paranoid that se will find my " Stash",
or press play on the VCR after I accidentally left in that FBB tape.
Its gotten so bad that if ther is a FBB show on ESPN, I'll make an excuse
up not to see her so I can sit home and wack off to it!!!!
Am I not normal or what??? Anyone have similar stories out there??
tres...@yahoo.com
Anunemouse wrote:
> For years I have been totally obcessed with female bodybuilders...And here is
> the kicker.... I dont know why!!! Why am I (we) so turned on...
It's in your nature, that's all. You don't have to question yourself when
you're turned on by adult women.
> ...by a female who for the most part looks like a man with a bikini top on?
Ok, you were fine until this point - do *you* look like a woman bodybuilder
without the bikini top? Chances are that you don't, so throw that silly
stereotype out. She looks like a woman bodybuilder, not a man. If you
perceive that as a challenge to your masculinity, then you'll simply have to
choose to (or not) resolve that for yourself.
> And... why am I so scared to death of being known to like such women?
My perception, again, is that you feel that your masculinity is being
threatened. It's not thing to be afraid of - some guys like huge boobs, other
guys like obese women, guys like me have a 'thing' for fitness competitors and
gymnasts - you just happen to like muscular women, and there's nothing at all
wrong with that. In fact, I'd say there's a whole lot that is -right- about
your feelings towards them.
> When my girlfriend comes over, I'm always so paranoid that se will find my "
> Stash", or press play on the VCR after I accidentally left in that FBB tape.
Why not share with her? Float a little trial balloon and see how it goes.
For example, when you two go out, you might make a point of
noticing/mentioning the fact that your waitress has shapely calves or biceps.
See how your girlfriend reacts to that, and you'll know best how to proceed.
That's one way, or you could become suppportive of women's sports (something
that may earn you brownie points), and then you can comment on a particular
athlete's muscularity and see what your girlfriend says, if anything.
> Its gotten so bad that if ther is a FBB show on ESPN, I'll make an excuse
> up not to see her...
Many guys have done this...
> so I can sit home and wack off to it!!!!
ALL guys have done this! haha j/k
> Am I not normal or what??? Anyone have similar stories out there??
You're normal, but forget about that 'she looks like a man' crap, because if
you'll look around at most men, you'll see that it's just not true.
--Tre'
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Mike Bogen
(everything before and after deleted)
> Float a little trial balloon and see how it goes.
> For example, when you two go out, you might make a point of
> noticing/mentioning the fact that your waitress has shapely calves or biceps.
> See how your girlfriend reacts to that, and you'll know best how to proceed.
In a sea of otherwise pretty darn good advice, these three sentences are
great white sharks. Sure, the principle is fine ... but the methodology
is akin to playing Russian roulette with a fully-loaded gun. Do not -- I
repeat, DO NOT -- use a flesh-and-blood, living, breathing female who is
feeding you, or seating you, or cashing you out ... whatever, as the
example. This waitress can be perceived as a threat. She's there, she's
"available." If your girlfriend has a jealous bone in her body, there's
always the chance she's gonna rip it out and beat you to death with it.
Instead, just tweak Tre's example a tad ... use someone on tv -- an
Angela Bassett, for example. Your girlfriend won't feel threatened by
someone she perceives as unavailable to you. She'll look at your
statement in the way you intended it, rather than thinking you're gonna
dump her for someone you've just said (for all intents and purposes) is
appealing.
Of course, this advice precludes the notion that your girlfriend will
react badly to your commenting on some actress' bod. If that's the case,
then I have only one piece of advice -- wear a cup and get the hell out
of Dodge!
Mike B.
Buttsbnny
>Why not share with her? Float a little trial balloon and see how it goes.
>noticing/mentioning the fact that your waitress has shapely calves or biceps.
Um...ok up until this point all of your coments were right on and correct. But
I have to step in here and save this poor shmoe..uh...joe...from really getting
wacked upside the head by his girlfriend.
you should DEFINATLY share with her your preference but first lesson in Woman
101 is never, I mean NEVER point out desirable characteristics on ANOTHER
woman...bad idea....many nights without nooky for you.
Best bet is to compliment your girlfriend on any muscles she has on her own
body and let her know that you like muscular women.
But other than that you were right on all acounts:)
Buttsbnny
>is akin to playing Russian roulette with a fully-loaded gun. Do not -- I
>repeat, DO NOT -- use a flesh-and-blood, living, breathing female who is
>feeding you, or seating you, or cashing you out ... whatever, as the
>example. This waitress can be perceived as a threat. She's there, she's
>"available." If your girlfriend has a jealous bone in her body, there's
>always the chance she's gonna rip it out and beat you to death with it
Wow - no sooner had I typed it and hit send then checked the next line on the
thread and BOOM - Bogan Butt nailed it right on the head.
Mike- you are truly a man accustomed to survival. Dare I say speaking from
experience?
rommel burks
feminine bodies. thats a good thing. in regards to the bikini quote,
take your average supermodel kate moss(who does nothing for me) or
tyra banks. two completely different types. same for bodybuilders .seems
like you would prefer a marianna komlos type to a lesa lewis type. i
dont have a problem with that at all. just dont disparage any women as i
like both types.
bunb...@dandy.net
butt...@aol.com (Buttsbnny) wrote:
> >
> >Why not share with her? Float a little trial balloon and see how it goes.
> >For example, when you two go out, you might make a point of
> >noticing/mentioning the fact that your waitress has shapely calves or biceps.
>
> Um...ok up until this point all of your coments were right on and correct.
But
> I have to step in here and save this poor shmoe..uh...joe...from really
getting
> wacked upside the head by his girlfriend.
[snipped]
I'd like to add this... Be careful, because in essence, your (the original
poster's) interest is/may be in others in addition to your girl friend. If
you dug long hair or bouncy whatever, and had contests and vid tapes of that,
then you would need to be just as cautious in breaking the news to her. The
problem in both instances is the same. Most lovers will not receive well,
any news that one finds others so attractive. The fact that muscles are the
object of desire probably won't better the odds. Believe me... I'm not
throwing down a moral judgment, just offering some words of advice from my
own experience.
~con~
anune...@aol.com (Anunemouse) wrote:
> For years I have been totally obcessed with female bodybuilders. Ever since
> I saw the first picture of one while in a store, its been a non-stop quest
> of mine to get all the pictures, stories and videos I can. And here is
> the kicker.... I dont know why!!! Why am I (we) so turned on by a female
> who for the most part looks like a man with a bikini top on? And... why
> am I so scared to death of being known to like such women? When my
> girlfriend comes over, I'm always so paranoid that se will find my " Stash",
> or press play on the VCR after I accidentally left in that FBB tape.
> Its gotten so bad that if ther is a FBB show on ESPN, I'll make an excuse
> up not to see her so I can sit home and wack off to it!!!!
> Am I not normal or what??? Anyone have similar stories out there??
FROM ABJECT TO OBJECT: WOMEN'S BODYBUILDING
by
MARCIA IAN
Rutgers University
_Postmodern Culture_ v.1 n.3 (May, 1991)
Copyright (c) 1991 by Marcia Ian, all rights reserved.
This text may be freely shared among individuals, but
it may not be republished in any medium without express
written consent from the author and advance
notification of the editors.
[1] Do muscles have gender, or are they, on the contrary,
ungendered human meat? Other than the few muscles
associated with their sexual organs, men and women have the
same muscles. Does this make muscles neuter, or perhaps
neutral? Is there some "difference" between the biceps of a
male and those of a female other than, possibly, that of
size? If a woman's biceps, or quadriceps, are bigger than a
man's, are hers more masculine than his? In the eyes of
most beholders, the more muscle a woman has, the more
"masculine" she is. The same, of course, is true for men:
the more muscle a man has, the more masculine he is too.
Bodybuilding in a sense is a sport dedicated to wiping out
"femininity," insofar as femininity has for centuries
connoted softness, passivity, non-aggressivity, and physical
weakness. Eradicating femininity just may be the purpose of
both male and female bodybuilders. Even so, for men to wage
war on femininity, whether their own or somebody else's, is
nothing new. For women, however, it is. Insofar as women
have for centuries obliged cultural expectations by
em-bodying femininity as immanent, bodybuilding affords
women the opportunity to embody instead a refusal of this
embodiment, to cease somewhat to represent man's
complementary (and complimentary) other.
[2] At least this is how it seems to this author, who is: a
forty-year old, divorced, atheistic Jewish mother of two
teenaged girls; an assistant professor of British and
American Literature at a the state univerity of New Jersey;
a specialist in modernism, psychoanalysis and gender; and a
dedicated "gym rat" who has trained hard and heavy without
cease (knock on wood) for about eight years now and during
graduate school even entered bodybuilding competitions. As
such, I confess, I obviously have various axes to grind (pun
intended) which intersect "around" the body as uniquely
over-determined site of ambivalent psychosocial
signification. From this point of view women's bodybuilding
appears to be roughly equal parts gender vanguardism and
exhibitionistic masochism; men's bodybuilding could in
theory be the same, but I have seen no evidence that this is
so. Male bodybuilders, on the contrary, seem mainly out to
prove that they are conventionally masculine--
hyperbolically, FEROCIOUSLY so.
[3] Furthermore, the sport of bodybuilding, as marketed and
represented by those enterprises founded by Joe and Ben
Weider, including magazines like _Flex_ and _Muscle and
Fitness_ (published by "I, Brute Enterprises, Inc.") and
contests like the Mr. and Ms. Olympia, as well as various
less powerful rival organizations, reproduces %ad nauseam%
all the cliches of masculinism from the barbarous to the
sublime. This remains true despite the fact that in recent
years the top female competitors have displayed increasing
amounts of hard striated muscle. I had hoped to find in the
gym a communal laboratory for experimental gender-bending,
perhaps a haven for the gender-bent, or at the least a
democratic republic biologically based on the universality
of human musculature. This laboratory, this haven, this
republic, however, remains a utopic and private space, a
delusion in effect, because what goes on in the gym, as in
bodybuilding competition, remains the violent re-inscription
of gender binarism, of difference even where there is none.
As Jane Gallop pointed out, in Western culture gender is no
"true" binary or antithesis but rather an algorithm of one
and zero. Bodybuilding expands the equivalence "male is to
female as one is to zero" to include the specious antithesis
of muscle and femininity.
[4] Spurious gender difference is maintained and rewarded
in bodybuilding through the discriminatory valorization of
certain aesthetic categories. Indeed bodybuilding tries to
limit the achievements of female physique athletes by adding
"femininity" to the list of aesthetic categories they are
expected to fulfill. The film _Pumping Iron II: The Women_
(1985) dramatically documents this sexism by recording a
conflict which erupts in a sequestered conference room among
those judging the 1983 "Miss Olympia" (now the "Ms.
Olympia"), America's most prestigious bodybuilding
competition for women. A man apparently serving his first
stint as judge is puzzled and angry to find that he is
supposed to judge the women on the basis of their
"femininity." He points out to the other, more experienced
judges that, while the men are ranked on the basis of their
muscle density, definition, over-all symmetry and
proportionality, as well as for the style, skill and
fluidity of their posing, the women are in addition judged
for a quality called "femininity" which surreptitiously but
effectively limits all the others. How, this judge queries,
is anyone supposed to determine how muscular a woman's body
can be before it ceases to be feminine? Furthermore, in
what other sport could a female competitor be expected to
limit her achievement for fear of losing her proper gender?
[5] Would anyone advise a runner--Florence Griffith-Joyner,
for example--that to run too fast would be unladylike?
Would anyone warn a female long jumper not to jump too far,
or a swimmer not to swim too fast? Why, then, presume to
tell a bodybuilder that she may be only so muscular, but no
more muscular than that, at the risk of losing both her
femininity and her contest? This sensible judge argued in
vain; the panel of judges elected Rachel McLish, then at her
cheesiest, as Miss Olympia, while penalizing Bev Francis, by
far the most muscular and impressive of the competitors, for
being what they considered "too masculine." McLish was
subsequently disqualified when someone discovered she had
padded her bikini top to look more buxom. McLish, however,
was merely trying to win the approval of the judges who, she
thought, might have been repelled by her if they had viewed
her as masculine, although it is hard to imagine how they
could have. Subsequently McLish became more interested in
the opinion of a higher judge when she became "born again"
and began pumping iron for Jesus. Even with McLish
disqualified, however, Francis placed pathetically low.
[6] Many viewers have been amused by McLish's antics but
missed the nature and extent of the sexism the movie
documents. Leonard Maltin's _TV Movies and Video Guide_
(1991), for example, which does not usually dwell upon the
physical attractiveness of the men and women appearing in
the films under review, informs its readers that _Pumping
Iron II_ offers a "funny, if suspiciously stagy" look at a
"Vegas non-event" in which "pouty-lipped sexpot Rachel
McLish, manlike Australian Bev Francis, and two-dozen more
female bodybuilders compete." But while the _Guide_ thus
dismisses the women's competition as a stagy non-encounter
between a sexpot and an Australian she-man, it describes the
first _Pumping Iron_ (1977) about the men, which, like
_Pumping Iron II_, received three stars from the _Guide_, as
a "fascinating documentary" in which Schwarzenegger "exudes
charm and . . . strong screen presence" (Schwarzenegger's
stage name in his early movie "Stay Hungry" was "Arnold
Strong").
[7] The arduousness of physique competition is the same for
male and female. Like the male, the female must diet away
as much subcutaneous and even intra-musculuar bodyfat as
possible when preparing for competition. And, whereas she
may typically start out with twice as much bodyfat as the
male, she must try to be as "ripped" as he, as close, that
is, to that impossible ideal of 0% bodyfat on the day of the
contest. In the process, she inevitably, if temporarily,
loses most of her breast tissue, as well as that soft
adiposity which typifies the conventionally feminine,
proto-maternal figure. Many female bodybuilders opt for
surgical breast implants to try to salvage the "femininity"
they lost in the eyes of their beholders as they gained in
muscularity. My own experience in two bodybuilding
competitions during the summer of 1986 (the summer after
hitting the MLA job market and accepting my present
position) typifies the ambivalent attitudes judges have
toward muscular female bodies. In July I won the "Miss
Neptune" championship at a fairly well-established contest
in Virginia Beach because my physique was the biggest,
hardest, and veiniest of the group. In August, having
remained during the intervening month in as close to "peak"
condition as possible, I lost a newly established contest to
an anorexic and a cupcake for the same reason. In this case
the judges, I was told later, assumed that the relatively
beefy hardness of my physique meant I was "juiced," and they
deducted points accordingly from my score. I have never
used drugs or even supplements, but since they did no
testing or even asking, I had no way to persuade them to the
contrary; nor did the audience, which roundly booed the
judges's decision.
[8] That the first contest had been run for years while the
second was newly established is significant; the
"establishment" in women's bodybuilding is changing
somewhat. Lenda Murray, the winner of the November, 1990
"Ms. Olympia" is phenomenally, finely, and hugely muscular.
She redefines women's bodybuilding, if not women, and must
be seen to be believed. Nevertheless, here it is June, 1991
and, as one irate reader points out, _Muscle and Fitness_
still has not seen fit to do a layout on the new Ms. O. The
reader asks, "Don't you think you should have stopped the
presses to get Lenda in?" In reply the editor points out
that there is "plenty of Lenda in this" issue. By "plenty
of Lenda" the editors apparently mean a feature piece
entitled "OOOOHHH, Ms. O!" in which Murray tells readers how
she trains her legs, and a brief interview of Murray and
another impressive champion, Anja Schreiner, entitled,
"Let's Talk About Women's Bodybuilding." This interview,
not surprisingly, is advertised in letters which say "Women
Talk About Building Sexy MUSCLES" down at the bottom of the
red-white-and-blue magazine cover of an issue which
highlights iron-pumping in Operation Desert Storm, for which
the editors did manage to stop the presses. The cover shows
a photo of a huge smiling blonde male flexing in his
Starred-and-Striped shorts, with two skinny blonde women in
red and blue bikinis clinging to his shoulders (one of the
women holds a little American flag at her breast). This
trio, in turn, is framed by the title of the month's
"Superfeature": "USA MILITARY MUSCLE: How the Navy Seals,
Combat Pilots, Ground Forces Toughen Up Thru Bodybuiding."
[9] This superfeature publishes a barrage of photos which
were sent to the magazine by its many fans in every branch
of Operation Desert Storm (all of whom, except one, were
men) who managed to lift, press, and squat weights made of
concrete, sand, and iron when not otherwise engaged. In the
midst of all this macho hype, however, Bill Dobbins,
longtime muscle writer, sounds a sane note or two, one of
which reminds us that, while men's bodybuilding continues to
reflect those patriarchal values we assume to have prevailed
among cavemen, women's bodybuilding continues quietly to
evolve. On the last page of the issue, entitled "The Champ:
Bev Francis," Dobbins reminds us of the controversy
"regarding the muscles-versus-femininity question in
bodybuilding for women" which greeted the appearance on the
bodybuilding stage of this former professional dancer and
world-champion powerlifter. Dobbins, writing for the Weider
organization, cannot criticize the 1983 decision filmed in
_Pumping Iron II_--after all, "for ultimate power and
excellence, she [Francis] uses the Weider Principles"--but
he does claim that her finally winning the World Pro title
in 1987 was a milestone in the sport. That was the day,
Dobbins writes, when "the controversy ended" and the
principle "'may the best bodybuilder win' became the rule of
the day, rather than 'we can't let the sport go in this
direction'" (toward the "manlike" woman Bev Francis), "when
the judges clearly opted for the aesthetics of bodybuilding
over other and often irrelevant standards of female beauty."
[10] Lenda Murray is evidence that, at least at the highest
levels, Dobbins may begin to be right. In the prefatory
remarks to his account of Murray's leg-training methods,
Dobbins, clearly awestruck, can't help but point out that--
given her tiny waist, her "exaggerated V-shape" and
"shockingly wide, well-developed lats," the dramatic sweep
of her thighs as curved "as a pair of parentheses" with
hamstrings to match--Murray resembles no less an athlete
than Sergio Oliva, Mr. Olympia 1967-69 and Arnold's
"legendary adversary." This comparison would be high praise
for anyone, but is astonishing--a first--for a woman.
Okay, so women are twenty years behind the men; but who
cares, when they are closing the gap? Surely the men
cannot continue to increase in mass from year to year at
the accustomed rate now that drug testing is becoming more
routine. True, as "everyone knows," steroids are still used
widely by both men and women, and both know how to clean up
their bloodstreams shortly before a contest in order to
avoid detection. Nevertheless, methods of detection are
improving. Two years ago drug-testing of women began at the
Miss Olympia competition, and this year the men were tested
for the first time. Officials claim that in the near future
they will initiate random drug testing throughout the year
in order to bar users from competition. But because men
have relied on drugs far longer and far more than women, and
have used them to widen the gap between the genders rather
than narrow it, the differences between serious male and
female competitors will likely continue to shrink.
[11] This will be the case, though, only if women manage to
free themselves from the judgemental category of
"femininity" which, Dobbins's sanguine prognostications to
the contrary, competitors and judges continue to invoke. In
his article on Schreiner and Murray, Jerry Brainum mentions
that both women continue to notice that others' reactions to
their physiques range from "curiosity to admiration to
disgust." "You can't expect to extract the idea of
femininity from the judging process in a women's
bodybuilding contest," says Lenda; Anja agrees that "old
stereotypes die hard." What do they think of these
stereotypes? They don't say. Neither wants to appear
freaky, but both thrive on the herculean effort and spartan
self-discipline the sport requires of both men and women.
Perhaps in the future physiological differences between
individuals will figure more prominently than aesthetic
differences between the genders.
[12] Different blood levels of sex hormones like estrogen
and testosterone, for example, do cause individuals' rates
and ratios of muscle growth and fat reduction to vary--
hormonal variations which, like the quantity and location of
an individual's "fast-twitch muscle fibres," figure among
the physiological factors vaguely designated by the term
"genetics." In the gym someone will inevitably and
reverentially say, for instance, that Arnold Schwarzenegger
has "great genetics" or, self-deprecatingly, that one's own
back won't grow because of inferior "genetics." "Genetics,"
like hormone levels and willpower, vary within the sexes as
well as between them, however, so that there is no reason to
assume that we have yet seen the "ultimate" physique,
whatever that might be. Still, this fantasy of, and
reverence for, superior "genetics" is certainly one of
bodybuilding's several Nazi-esque qualities. Others include
a kind of superrace (not just superhero) mentality which,
especially if the builder in question is stoked on steroids
or crazed by radical dieting, can provoke snickering
sneering snarling growling or worse directed at anyone whose
existence could in any way be construed as coming between
him and his rightful greatness, let alone between him and
his image in the mirror. (I once heard "Mr. Virginia" bark
at a woman who sauntered across his line of vision: "GET THE
FUCK OUT OF MY MIRROR.")
[13] Beneath the superrace mentality, with its need to
believe in absolute difference between the one and the zero,
there lurks, as one might expect, the fetishist's fearful
wish that there may finally be no difference after all
between the sexes. Without question, relative to the
cultural norms of masculine and feminine bodies, the female
builder masculinizes herself. But why does no one ever
mention that the muscular male physique athlete feminizes
himself to a degree? Consider the curvaceous pectoral
mounds of the well-developed male chest; the round "muscle
bellies" of powerful male biceps; the firm meaty thighs and
spherical buttocks of the man who can squat heavy. And how
about the hairless, well-lubricated flesh some of the men
sport year-round, but with which all male competitors must
emerge on contest day? Above all, what about the devotion
with which the male bodybuilder strives to embody a set of
ideal categories--symmetry, proportion, muscularity--for the
acknowledgement of which he offers himself to a panel who
objectify him in just those terms? Does he not feel
feminized in the process?
[14] Over the years I've asked various male builders these
questions, and I've never received an answer more direct
than a narrowed gaze and a "How the FUCK should I know?"
Sam Fussell, who is in a sense my younger, WASP, Ivy League,
analog, answers this question in his book _Muscle:
Confessions of an Unlikely Bodybuilder_, when at the end of
Chapter 10 he shares with his readers the most humiliating
moment in his career in iron. This moment comes when he
fails to "Explode!" on cue at the Rose City Bench-Press
Extravaganza, and thereby takes last place in his 242-lb.
weight class, an over-subscribed class for which the contest
promoters quickly run out of trophies. When Fussell walks
to the podium to receive his last-place men's trophy, what
he gets is much worse: a sympathetic pat on the rump, and "a
plaque on which were inscribed in gold plate the words:
"Women 148 lbs: First Place." "At last," writes Fussell
pathetically, "I had a trophy to tell me just who and what I
was." A woman! For shame! And after all that work too.
(Poor baby.)
[15] On the other hand one of Fussell's best moments occurs
at a bodybuilding contest when he walks offstage after
performing his posing routine, to be welcomed by his friend
Vinnie: "Oh, Sam. . . You looked like a human fucking penis!
Veins were poppin' every which way!" In all fairness, I
should add here that I spoke the very same words to my own
mirrored reflection in about 1985, which may indicate that
this fantasy of sexual indifferentiation is a two-way
street. What is not a two-way street is the manner in which
bodybuilding conceals the fantasy of sexual
indifferentiation behind a whole vocabulary of aesthetic
discriminations applied only to men, discriminations which
recast difference as a repertory of typecast cliches, while
women are still dealing with that single over-determined
choice between "femininity" and freakiness. Men, on the
other hand, to take examples again from this month's
_Muscle and Fitness_, train like animals (from a piece on
powerbuilding), re-invent nature (from Weider's editorial),
and exceed the classical ideals of the Greeks themselves
(from a piece on free weights vs. machines).
[16] Typically, the discourse of male bodybuilding grinds
these axes together in the most simpleminded way, in the
hope simultaneously of doing, out-doing, and re-doing each,
separately, and together: nature, technology, classicism.
To take a consummate example, in an article called "The Art
of Arm Training," by Frenchman Francis Benfatto, as told to
Julian Schmidt, Benfatto claims that "hardwired into the
genes of every Frenchman" is an artistic sense which
"influences [their] perceptions of everything from
Hellenistic art to bodybuilding." These artistic genes were
set off in him, he claims, when he rode horses in his youth
and fell in love with their "sweeping muscularity," a love
Flaubert's words explain best: "'In art there is nothing
without form.'" Whether he is contemplating his whole
physique or only his arms, Benfatto explains, he always
applies his Flaubertian love of form to every aspect of
bodybuilding because, as Voltaire said, bodybuilding is as
much an art as the Mona Lisa or Venus de Milo. (Well,
actually, I left out a line or two here in between Voltaire
and the Mona Lisa, but I swear I did not add a word.)
[17] The judging of bodybuilding competitions, unlike
powerflifting or Olympic lifting, depends on categorical
aesthetic evaluations. In a powerlifting or Olympic meet,
the winner is determined either by how much weight he or she
lifts relative to other competitors in the same weight
class, or by means of a fixed formula which shows how much
weight he or she moved relative to his or her body weight.
In a bodybuilding meet there are still no such objective
standards, leaving room for the kinds of psychological and
aesthetic bias I've been discussing. Bodybuilding promoters
are increasingly aware of how arbitrary this makes their
sport look, and how this subjective bias undermines their
claims that bodybuilding is a sport and not just an art.
For all their hifalutin language about the art of
bodybuilding, promoters still harbor a wish for bodybuilding
to be included among the Olympic sports. This hardly seems
possible, however, as long as competitors are judged
qualitatively rather than quantitatively and subjectively
rather than objectively. Accordingly, the Weider people now
offer what they call an "Ideal Proportion Chart" with
instructions--based on one's bodyweight per inch of height,
and on the measurement in inches of one's neck, biceps,
forearm, chest, waist, hips, thigh, and calf--on how to set
one's training goals. How did they come up with these
measurements? They don't let on; they don't say whether
these "ideal proportions" are derived from Praxiteles, da
Vinci, or Bob Paris, whose photo graces this feature
article. It is probably safe to assume, however, that the
measurements were not derived from Lenda Murray. A note
above the chart comments that "women bodybuilders may have
to adjust measurements in the area of the hips, waist and
chest, depending on build." The Ideal Proportions, in other
words (surprise, surprise) are merely those of some man or
other. I can't help thinking, however, that, as brutal,
cruel, cryptic and comical as this Chart seems, by
implementing it, bodybuilding, despite itself, might be
doing women a favor.
~con~
> For years I have been totally obcessed with female bodybuilders. Ever since
> I saw the first picture of one while in a store, its been a non-stop quest
> of mine to get all the pictures, stories and videos I can. And here is
> the kicker.... I dont know why!!! Why am I (we) so turned on by a female
> who for the most part looks like a man with a bikini top on? And... why
> am I so scared to death of being known to like such women? When my
> girlfriend comes over, I'm always so paranoid that se will find my " Stash",
> or press play on the VCR after I accidentally left in that FBB tape.
> Its gotten so bad that if ther is a FBB show on ESPN, I'll make an excuse
> up not to see her so I can sit home and wack off to it!!!!
> Am I not normal or what??? Anyone have similar stories out there??
Muscle Women and Steroids
There weren't many women training in Muscle City back in the early
eighties. The few
bodybuilding gyms open at the time were grimy male dominated dungeons with no
amenities what so ever to accommodate female clientele. The few women who were
training at the time were strictly doing so at their own risk. World Gym
didn't even have a
door to the shower! You practically walked right through it on your way
upstairs from the
parking garage. Then Rachel Mclish won the Ms. Olympia. Her awesome body
ushered in the
age of "flex appeal" inspiring women to start bodybuilding, giving up on
the myth that
women shouldn't have muscles. Gradually, month after month, pretty new
bodies were
accepted into our hard core muscle temples, drastically improving the
scenery. The gyms
got a face lift too, adding such things as women's rest rooms and dressing
areas.
I was first intrigued with a finely tuned muscle goddess one day looking up
from under a
bench press. I had just racked the weight when I looked up to see the two
most perfect
little glute muscles swagger by; packed rather alluringly into a pair of
black spandex so
sheer there was little doubt of the color of the G-string underneath. I
whacked the bar
with my head hard enough to leave a lasting impression of the knurling as I
sat up to see
the rest of her. The top half was implanted with just enough silicone to
round out the
silhouette; straining provocatively against comparably sheer spandex,
cropped short to
reveal the most ravishing six pack. Her face was straight out of a magazine
- naturally
pretty without make up, framed with little wisps of blond hair that
continued on down to
her waist.
She turned and saw me checking her out. Thankfully she smiled, a little
bashfully, and
threw me a look I could've poured on a waffle. I mustered the courage to
walk over and
strike up a conversation, stumbling over lines I came up with from I don't
know where. I
practically gagged when I asked for her phone number, but she gave it to
me. I used it that
afternoon and that evening I went out on a date with my very first muscle
chick.
As I got out of bed the next morning, I was well on my way to two and a
half years of,
among other things, the most intimate and in depth experience of a woman taking
steroids. An insight that is some what unique, never the less an accurate
perspective of
what the majority of women taking male hormones experiences. The drugs
effected her
physically, sexually and emotionally in ways that made the relationship
interesting to
say the least. I'm not saying it was the worst relationship I ever had, but
she did give
great headache.
Like the men similarly compelled, women bodybuilders must confront the very same
health and legal issues when they decide to gear up. Women must also face
some pretty
cruel public ridicule due to the irreversible symptoms of the masculinizing
effect male
hormones have on their bodies and their minds. I'm not just talking about a
girl with
muscles. I'm talking about the hardcore, top level competitors. The ones
plastered all over
the magazines. The ones who build the bodies you expect to see when you
cough up your
hard earned money for a contest ticket.
To physically and emotionally augment the body of one sex by injecting it
with the
hormones of the opposite sex, you will inevitably contend with, in this
case, something
quite controversial. Do male hormones diminish femininity or add
masculinity and which
case is undesirable? I think both. But first I think we need to try and
understand
femininity.
Visually, can you compare Kim Chizevsky to Marla Duncan, both in contest
shape, and say
one looks more feminine than the other? (I sure can, but I'm probably
wrong). I'd imagine
some feminist advocates would argue that both are feminine because both are
women,
that femininity lies within and is the experience of being a woman. The
visual attributes
that traditionally define femininity from a male point of view; big tits, a
round butt, a
slim waist and a pretty face have nothing to do with it.
I can no more explain femininity than a tornado can blow through a junk
yard and spit out
the space shuttle. I don't have what it takes. But Carol Anne does. There
is perhaps no
more staunch an advocate of feminism than our own Carol Anne Weber. At
least if I state
her definition I won't be subject to her wrath. If you've ever stood
opposite the business
end of the mouth of bodybuilding while she defends anything female, you
know what I
mean.
Carol Anne concurred with the feminist position. "Femininity is defined by
women not
men." She says. It is how she experiences herself, her experience of being
a woman. She is
perfectly able to develope her body, to build muscle and compete as a
bodybuilder without
losing an once of femininity. It's men who decide a woman is not feminine
because she
has muscles.
I agree, as long as they don't do steroids. As far as I'm concerned women
bodybuilders on
steroids are not feminine, not women bodybuilders in general - just the
gnarly ones.
This is the crux issue here. The general public, (represented by the fifty
men and women I
polled), agree. No one told me they didn't think the natural women
bodybuilders were not
feminine. It's the women with huge striated, veiny muscles, grainy skin, a
big nose, a
wide jaw, and a voice like Barry White on helium that are not considered
feminine nor
desirable. But, in the true essence of competition, who cares what people
think? A fine
line has evidentially been established; a small contingent of fans still
remain to support
the result of no holds barred competition - unbridled development with the
only concern
the trophy. Their audience is very limited though. As a result many top
pros can't get by
without their day job. Or worse.
As steroid use permeated women's bodybuilding, public interest declined
accordingly.
When George Snyder promoted the first Ms. Olympia, it was well received and
supported
by a diverse contingent of loyal fans. The women looked fit, strong, and
certainly
feminine. They had a look that inspired other women, a look that could
realistically be
achieved. The sport grew and eventually steroids found their way to the
front line. The
IFBB attempted to test the athletes and enforce their rules against steroid
use in 1990.
Naturally it was a feeble attempt. These days you see women on stage in
dire need of a
third gender classification. Apart from Lenda Murray's awesome genetics,
and Sue Price's
unspoiled beauty, the line-up at this year's Ms. O was appalling. I
couldn't even look at
some of them. And I'm not the only one. The show has lost so much of its
following, as
well as many of its popular competitors, that it can no longer stand on its
own. The last
year the Ms. Olympia was promoted as a solo event less than 2000 tickets
were sold. Now
it has to be held in conjunction with the men's show in order to get enough
of an audience
to turn a profit.
I spoke with several women, who I know use drugs to compete, to try and
find out why
they'd be willing to cash in their femininity and their desirability for
such a paltry
return. Quite surprisingly their take on the issue is very different from
the men.
First of all, few female competitors will actually admit they're oiled in
spite of all the
obvious signs. Only a few of the girls I interviewed admitted they were or
had been "on."
Probably only because they had asked my advise on how to take their drugs
and that I
promised not to use their names. All the rest are in denial. Even when
shown pictures of
themselves before and after a few years worth of cycles, (not menstrual),
they still
won't admit it. If they spent half the energy in the gym training as they
do making up the
ludicrous excuses to explain away their jaw or their voice or their big
nose, they wouldn't
need drugs. I wonder if they think they're doing something wrong? Not in so
far as
breaking the IFBB's rules as well as the law, but rules created by a higher
power. It's so
perfectly ironic; they copy the men in how they train and how they compete,
they take
male hormones, and guess what? They turn into men!
What does a woman experience as the drugs she's taking to grow her muscles
slowly start
to turn her male? They do you know. To say the effect male hormones have on
women is
profound is to say Noah built the ark because of a little rain. Listing the
side effects
women experience while taking steroids is one thing, living with them is
another. Six
months after we started dating, the girl I met in the gym started her first
cycle. She
wanted to win the Nationals and felt there was no other way to compete at
that level. I
argued that she didn't have the genetics to win the Nationals, drugs were
only going to
ruin her body. She may not have had the genetics to win the Nationals, but
she had a body
that would make a priest burn his robes. Muscular, lean, shapely, flawless
skin - a
beautiful, sexy woman with muscles. She could have done well without taking
steroids,
but she'd never win the Nationals. With or without steroids.
Well that pissed her off. By telling her what I thought, I'd thrown down
the gauntlet and
she wasted no time gearing up. In fact, she tried making up for lost time
by staying oiled
from then on.
It turns out I was right. As far as I know she still has not won the
Nationals. She did ruin
her body and her femininity though. Her skin became course and dry, a lot
of her hair fell
out, her voice dropped three octaves, her nose grew, her jaw widened and
she stopped
having her period. In two years I watched her go from the hottest babe I'd
ever seen to
something that looked like a day old drag queen. She developed almost every
side effect a
woman can, both physical and emotional, from all the different drugs she
used. It was an
incredible metamorphosis, and certainly the root of our demise.
Her change, (I know you're just dying to know who she is) is basically what
all women
taking steroids experience. Some a little more than others, but no woman is
immune to
steroid side effects. No matter how much they deny it. The ones I'll
describe are perhaps
the most common. They're irreversible, most undesirable and for some
strange reason
tolerated.
The most visible de-feminizing side effects are well known and well
discussed. Even by
the sport's governing body, which seems to turn a blind eye to those competitors
obviously breaking the rules. What I want to talk about is the stuff nobody
else does; the
more intimate stuff. The physical and psychological changes a woman
experiences when
her sex is compromised - when androgyny sets in. What goes on in a heterosexual
relationship when the female member starts turning male. It's not pretty
and I'll no doubt
offend somebody, but that's the breaks when you get the truth.
First lets talk about aggression. It's good for a bodybuilder to be
aggressive, you get a
better workout right? True. But when a woman's aggression is mitigated by
testosterone,
the result is very ugly. Their brains are obviously confused. They start
fights they can't
finnish, they mouth off to any one that looks at them sideways and they
lose their temper
at the drop of a hat. I remember an anecdotal situation with my former
girlfriend. It was
the first time I witnessed firsthand androgynous aggression.
We were in the crowded baggage claim area at LAX on the way home from a
guest posing.
While I waited for our luggage to pop out of the conveyor she waited,
impatiently, leaning
against the wall, wearing spandex shorts, a sports bra and a baggy tank
top. She was in
fairly good shape from dieting for her appearance, dyed dark brown, and
covered in veins
from all the junk she rewarded herself with after the show. Looking back I
must say she
was a sight.
Some poor guy was staring at her just a little too long and she went off in
that grating
voice of an adolescent male. "What the f--- are you lookin' at dick weed?
Ha? I'll rip
those f---in' eyes right out of your bald head and........." I practically
had to pull her off him
in front of stunned on-lookers.
How about sexual aggression? Testosterone makes women horny. Very horny and very
aggressive. Before you go putting Dianabol in you girlfriend's oatmeal,
picture this - the
girl weighs 150 pounds, can do an hour on the Stairmaster, and bench two
and a quarter.
She's all worked up, got nothing to do and she wants you - NOW! I'm not
talking candles
and soft music here, I'm talking total, aggressive, instant gratification -
several times a
day.
If that's the kind of girl that lights your wick, remember to keep the
bedroom windows
shut. Getting ridden into oblivion while she boisterously extols her
pleasure in a voice
that sounds like Ed down at the gas station, will have your neighbors think
you're having
sex with another man. For months after she moved in, until he finally met
her, my
downstairs neighbor thought I was gay. Then he thought I was weird.
Okay, so you don't mind having frequent sex with a big strong aggressive
woman with a
deep voice. I was able to put up with it, for a while. But how about a big
strong aggressive
woman with a deep voice, a hairy butt and a small penis?
Clitoral enlargement resulting from androgen use is another irreversible
side effect. I've
seen more than one as big as my thumb, and I can tell you - it'll change
the way you think
about cunnilingus. When a woman so endowed becomes aroused, her clitoris
becomes erect
and sticks out just like a penis does. It even looks exactly like a
miniature penis. Some
women argue that this condition results in more frequent and more intense
orgasms.
Others contend the added size increases sensitivity to the point where
climbing a flight
of stairs in tight pants is a problem. In either case, get used to it. It
won't go away.
Hirsutism, or rampant hair growth, is another irreversible side effect.
This hair growth
sprouts up on the chin, chest, around the nipples, and the buttocks -
especially the lower
inner glutes and around the anus. Ridding her body of this excess hair can
become an
obsession for one so afflicted. I know women who spend hours standing in
front of the
mirror plucking corse dark hairs out of their chin with a tweezer, shave
their chest and
do some extensive bikini waxing. Frequently. And they'll be doing so for
the rest of their
lives.
Stomach distention is another side effect attributed to steroid use. The
innards of the
lower abdomen become irritated and swollen from the use of certain
steroids. Chronic
constipation, water retention, and intestinal gas can also contribute to
the problem.
Although not permanent nor particularly problematic, a protruding gut is
just another
thing the stacked women wants to hide. They try so hard to keep it sucked in.
Vaginal discharge. Sounds sexy, doesn't it? Women using steroids that are
moderately to
highly androgenic usually come down with a nasty case of "the drip." She
doesn't have a
disease or an infection, just the discharge. Obviously this condition is
not harmful, and it
does go away when the drugs are stopped. But, while she's got it, it's just
another thing
for her to deal with. If her lover plans on spending any time in or around
her vagina, he or
she will have to deal with it too.
Another bothersome yet temporary condition for the roiding woman is the
strengthening
of her body oder. Left unbathed, it's typical for a man to smell a bit more
randy than a
woman. Testosterone effects the sweat glands in humans, much like most mammals,
giving the males of the species a stronger odor. Females taking male
hormones may also
be equipped with this option.
Her private acceptance of these conditions is cause for great depression
and withdrawal
for some competitors. Depression is further aggravated if and when her
steroid use stops.
Estrogen rebound causes extreme depression, fatigue, apathy, etc. Some told
me they
thought they were going crazy until their hormones got back in balance.
Watching her
size, strength and leanness slipping away is more fuel for the fire.
A depressed, hairy woman with a pot belly, scathing body odor, a small
penis and a case
of the drip is considered by most potential lovers sexually repugnant and
the source of
great emotional trauma for some women. Forget the muscles, some women may
become so
self conscious and ashamed of her new masculinity that her sexuality is
significantly
affected. Turning male can also become the source of considerable sexual
dysfunction in a
relationship. A woman's sexuality can be damaged for life, especially if
she's had a bad
experience or two with an intolerant, inept, lover.
Is it all worth it? Do the top women competing today earn millions of
dollars a year and
enjoy wide scale public acceptance and celebrity in exchange for life long
disfigurement
and psychological trauma? Ha! Many of them can't pay the bills. It's
interesting that with
what little women's bodybuilding has to offer, the top competitors as well
as those
striving to get there, are sill willing to trade in a good chunk of their
femininity, by using
steroids, to create an image that is so totally unacceptable.
Many times it's not her fault. It's a boyfriend or a husband with higher
aspirations and
enough gear to grow a beard on a peach, who talks an unwitting competitor
into doing
everything it takes to win. These guys are usually bodybuilders themselves,
competitors
who never really make it. Their mate may have a better shot at a title than
he, and if so,
what better science project to take on for a vicarious trip to the top?
Unfortunately
these guys don't know enough to get themselves into shape, let alone
another bodybuilder
- a woman no less, with a totally different chemistry than his. We've all
seen women
climbing the ranks and over the years remarked on how gnarly they're
getting. More often
than not there's an exclusive guy in the wings with a big dripping syringe who's
responsible for ruining her.
Some women use small amounts of low androgen steroids and experience very
few side
effects and have little effect on the stigma of top level competitors.
Unfortunately the
majority of these women don't fair well in competition and it's not long
before they
retire, moving on to bigger and better things. Even fewer women compete
drug free. My
wife, Shelley Beattie, never used drugs in her pro career. Although she
used them to win
the USA and turn pro under the guidance of a complete bone head, she did
far better
without them, (the drugs and the bonehead). Third place in the Ms. Olympia,
drug free, is
quite an accomplishment - one she is quite proud of. (If there is any doubt
Shelly
competed drug free, consider this: in 92 Shelley became an American
Gladiator. Gladiators
are forbidden to take steroids by the producers of the show. Drug testing
is mandatory
and they actually do it - if you fail you're off the show. Shelley has
passed all of her drug
tests and is still a Gladiator.) Unfortunately, she was told by an IFBB
official that if she
expected to do better she needed to take "something." The following year
Shelley showed
up bigger and leaner. However she didn't take the IFBB's advice as many of
her fellow
competitors obviously had. She placed seventh. Sadly, her fans will never
see her compete
again on a bodybuilding stage; the writing was on the wall. Shelley may be
deaf but she's
not blind.
Shelley is a talented and gifted athlete, able to ply her gifts outside the
bodybuilding
arena. She's made several hundred thousand dollars since abandoning the
posing dias and
has many lucrative opportunities ahead of her. Most of the competitors
today are not so
fortunate.
A few of the professional female competitors can earn a living from guest
posing,
seminars, and the occasional endorsement contract. Other aspiring champions have
limited options. Some work a regular job or do personal training to get by.
Many choose a
more degrading path; stripping, prostitution, phone sex, and catering to
the whims of the
schmoes.
Schmoes are sexual deviates who pay women bodybuilders to wrestle with them, to
squeeze her sinewy biceps, have their heads scissored between a pair of
powerful thighs,
or thrown around like a rag doll by a muscular dominatrix. Many times
masturbating in the
process. There's more money in it for her if she provides the "hand
release." It's the most
loathsome form of prostitution. Schmoes are the scum of the earth you would
normally
find while taking a trip through a sewer in a glass bottomed boat. Sick
lecherous little
people that no lone female should ever have to face, let alone provide such
a service for.
Yet so many do. I find it reprehensible that even one woman devoted to this
sport feels
she has to stoop so low. Bodybuilding seems to be full of such sad commentary.
What's the reason the women have it so tough? The men have it tough, but
not this tough.
The answer is obvious. They need to stop using steroids!
Male hormones belong in a male body. Pump in extra and he becomes more
male. As normal
sounding as that is it's still wrong, never the less socially acceptable.
But steroids turn
women male and rob her body of its femininity in the process. The result is
quite
unacceptable, evident by the decline in popularity women's bodybuilding has
suffered over
the years and the poor public opinion of the competitors. Fitness has been
around just a
fraction of the time and enjoys far greater popularity as well as public
acceptance.
There's got to be a message there.
If it's true that a competitor competes at all costs simply to satisfy her
own destiny,
regardless of popular opinion, then she who competes with the help of male
hormones is
on the right track. If steroid use continues unabated in women's
competition, if the
women continue to show up come contest time looking more and more like boys with
breast implants, the sport will surely perish. Then they really won't have
to worry about
what people think.
~con~
> For years I have been totally obcessed with female bodybuilders. Ever since
> I saw the first picture of one while in a store, its been a non-stop quest
> of mine to get all the pictures, stories and videos I can. And here is
> the kicker.... I dont know why!!! Why am I (we) so turned on by a female
> who for the most part looks like a man with a bikini top on? And... why
> am I so scared to death of being known to like such women? When my
> girlfriend comes over, I'm always so paranoid that se will find my " Stash",
> or press play on the VCR after I accidentally left in that FBB tape.
> Its gotten so bad that if ther is a FBB show on ESPN, I'll make an excuse
> up not to see her so I can sit home and wack off to it!!!!
> Am I not normal or what??? Anyone have similar stories out there??
[table of contents] [postmsg] [submit article] [go back]
Images of Muscular Women
One reason, among others, that some female bodybuilders are unjustly accused
of using steroids or other growth drugs is that many people are so deeply
invested in their common belief that a woman simply cannot get so muscular
without artificial aid.
It's a psychological and social tactic by which someone can reject very
muscular women as unnatural or freakish. Such a rejection, in turn, allows
one to maintain her or his faith in essential images of what a woman should
look like and what a woman should be: maybe Cindy Crawford, maybe Mom, maybe
the girl-next-door, but definitely not Bev Francis or Paula Birkenshaw.
From my cultural psychoanalytic perspective, such images maintain a certain
normative cultural system of sexual difference. And most people's basic
understandings of themselves--their egos, their sexual identities, their
sexual orientations, their sense of themselves as attractive, desirable, or
lovable, their status as functioning members of a social group or
class--depend heavily upon that system.
In other words, because their very (social) psyches are at stake, many
people are extremely reluctant, at conscious and unconscious levels, to
accept very muscular female bodybuilders as "real" women. Bill Dobbins, in
the introduction to his book, THE WOMEN, tells a revealing anecdote about
the clerk at his local framing shot, who felt compelled to tell him that she
was disgusted by the pictures of female bodybuilders he had given her to be
mounted, even though she very much wanted to keep him as a customer. Such
rejection bespeaks a deep and very forceful motivation to resist the
bodybuilding body. Labelling bodybuilders as drug-users is a popular and
convenient way to reject that body.
Of course, normative images of exemplary womanhood (Crawford, Mom, etc.) and
the system of sexual difference are neither natural nor God-given. They are
instead the historical accumulation of custom, prejudice, precedent, and
power.
Female bodybuilders are therefore very important figures in a
socio-political sense--even though few would likely articulate themselves as
such. They provide images and exemplars of a powerful new image of possible
womanhood, that can both unhinge and transform a culture's vision and
understanding of what sex and gender and selfhood are all about.
Accusations of steroid abuse are just evidence of how this culture is dimly
aware that fundamental aspects of itself are on the verge of critical
change, and that female bodybuilders are crucial agents of that change.
Buttsbnny
>of using steroids or other growth drugs is that many people are so deeply
>invested in their common belief that a woman simply cannot get so muscular
>without artificial aid.
Very true - and lets not forget the element of petty jelousy as well.
William D. Hileman
morning... I realized that I've had these fantasies about muscular women for
a VERY long time, as long ago as when I was in the 2nd grade! I find this
peculiar since this means that it could not be sexual in origin. I
distinctly remember being in the second grade, fantasizing about a
particular girl in the class, and my fantasy involved her being "supergirl",
and there was a certain amount of private humiliation involved... that she
was incredibly strong (as supergirl would be) and that she could fly, etc.
I imagined her picking me up like I weighed nothing, flying around with me
in her arms, setting me down, laughing at how she was so much more powerful
than me and how puny I was in comparison. I can't explain why this was such
a fantastic fantasy for me, to this day.
This was also the sixties, LONG before female bodybuilding was around.
I also very much remember a day when I was in the eighth grade, in the
library flipping through a copy of Life magazine, when I came across a brief
article about women working with weights, just to see if women could develop
muscle at all like men could. This had to be the early seventies, again
before women's bodybuilding. It had a couple of pictures of women flexing
their biceps. They were absolutely nothing like a modern bodybuilder, but
until that day I'd never seen anything on a women even remotely resembling a
developed bicep, and I was INSTANTLY aroused! I was 13 I think at the time,
so this time it DID have a sexual effect on me. I had to excuse myself to
the boy's room for a little private business :)
I, too, have had to hide my strong attraction to female bodybuilders over
the years. The few times I'd shared my passion with friends, I only got
negative responses, so few people know about my love for muscular godesses.
And I, too, wonder why I have this fascination...
--
Bill Hileman, PDGA #1577, HDD #001
dasi...@gator.net
Dad of Twins Dustin & Dylan!
Maka...@webtv.net
in the clitoral area of most of the nude photos of muscular women are
"natural" and these women have NEVER taken STEROIDS ?????? These
"thingees" have been on women for thousands of years ?
The reason bodybuilders -men and women- DENY the use of Steroids is
because Steroids are ILLEGAL ! Who wants to admit that they broke the
law ? The stronger they DENY the FACT of steroids, the more that the
logical explanation of drug use = BIG MUSCLES on women sounds like an
ACCUSATION and not a logical explanation. If steroids were LEGAL and
could be bought in any nutrition store over the counter, and if ALL
SPORTS- Olympic, Pro, Baseball, Football, Bodybuilding, etc. accepted
and even ENDORSED their use, then their would be no denials. What if
pumping iron were illegal for women ????? Then would people defend
these suddenly muscular women by saying "it's all natural, women just
happen to be getting bigger these days for no reason"
So.... let's just legalize the juice and let all adults 18 and over have
all they want. Sure would spare us a lot of denials, accusations,
discussions, etc.
Jaxx2672
>For example, when you two go out, you might make a point of
>noticing/mentioning the fact that your waitress has shapely calves or biceps.
don't tell your girlfriend anything
Buttsbnny
>in the clitoral area of most of the nude photos of muscular women are
>"natural" and these women have NEVER taken STEROIDS ?????? These
>"thingees" have been on women for thousands of years ?
>The reason bodybuilders -men and women- DENY the use of Steroids is
>because Steroids are ILLEGAL ! Who wants to admit that they broke the
>law ? The stronger they DENY the FACT of steroids, the more that the
>logical explanation of drug use = BIG MUSCLES on women sounds like an
>ACCUSATION and not a logical explanation. If steroids were LEGAL and
>could be bought in any nutrition store over the counter, and if ALL
>SPORTS- Olympic, Pro, Baseball, Football, Bodybuilding, etc. accepted
>and even ENDORSED their use, then their would be no denials. What if
>pumping iron were illegal for women ?????
Umm.......just curious...where DID this come from? I remember a sweeping
statement by one person mentioning that just because a woman was muscular she
was accused to steroids - I don't ever remember them saying that ALL women who
were muscular were natural.
Aside from that I have to say that I DO know several ladys who ARE really
natural and are quite good - granted not as cut as someone who is on but still
good enough for people to unjustly accuse them for using.
Just curious where this fame came from since I was not aware that this was a
hostile thread - it has not been up until this point.
Das Walt
E
Das walt
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> schrieb in Nachricht
199808251620...@ladder01.news.aol.com...
>>So I guess the enlarged pinky sized and thumb sized "thingees" we see
snip
C-P >
> So I guess the enlarged pinky sized and thumb sized "thingees" we see
> in the clitoral area of most of the nude photos of muscular women are
> "natural" and these women have NEVER taken STEROIDS ?????? These
> "thingees" have been on women for thousands of years ?
> The reason bodybuilders -men and women- DENY the use of Steroids is
> because Steroids are ILLEGAL ! Who wants to admit that they broke the
> law ? The stronger they DENY the FACT of steroids, the more that the
> logical explanation of drug use = BIG MUSCLES on women sounds like an
> ACCUSATION and not a logical explanation. If steroids were LEGAL and
> could be bought in any nutrition store over the counter, and if ALL
> SPORTS- Olympic, Pro, Baseball, Football, Bodybuilding, etc. accepted
> and even ENDORSED their use, then their would be no denials. What if
> pumping iron were illegal for women ????? Then would people defend
> these suddenly muscular women by saying "it's all natural, women just
> happen to be getting bigger these days for no reason"
> So.... let's just legalize the juice and let all adults 18 and over have
> all they want. Sure would spare us a lot of denials, accusations,
> discussions, etc.
>
Hmm, you're quite aggressive little man ...
Maybe they won't tell they're on 'cause it's not your business.
And why nobody ACCUSES (as you say) them of eating a strict diet
year long, and training like beasts, and beeing 120% dedicated to
what they do ???? I just wonder.
C-P
------------
"It's not that life's too short...
...it's just you're dead for so long !"
------------
C-P's World of Muscle : http://homer.span.ch/~spaw2551
JasonH
<dasi...@gator.net> wrote:
>It funny, I was just thinking about this subject on the way to work this
>morning... I realized that I've had these fantasies about muscular women for
>a VERY long time, as long ago as when I was in the 2nd grade! I find this
<snip>
Hmm, seems like a lot of us admirers starting admiring at a young age.
I remember liking a girl in about 5th grade that was very athletic. I
remember her being very ripped - her legs were a tad more muscled than
the other girls, but of course, in retrospect, probably not much. But
since it was my first experience seeing real live muscles on a female,
I was floored.
I know it's weird (well, maybe not to this group) but I loved to just
grab a seat and stare at her while she played soccer (or just walk
around!) during recess! I was too shy to talk much to her (a trait
that carries over to this day, and I want to kick my own ass every
time it happens).
My interest had built over the years til about 5 years ago, when only
the biggest baddest women around would do. Recently, though, I find
the fitness girls and the "smaller" fbb's are the most attractive,
like Skye from her bb'ing days and (especially) Donna Restivo.
Of course, I wouldn't snub "average" women (beggars can't be choosers)
but there's something about beautiful fbb's, like Donna or Buttsbunny
(wink wink)
My $0.02.
Jason
tres...@yahoo.com
t...@hardware.man wrote:
> I'm not sure what's worse explaining 'this' to your girlfriend or your mom?
Hey, you're a man, right? That means you have the free agency to like and
dislike whatever you choose. My mother knew what I was into years ago, and
by the time I was in high school, it was really no big deal. They (both
parents) attempted to revisit it a year or so ago, asking why I was into it,
not understanding how well-built women could turn me on. My answer: because
they're beautiful and confident, two traits that I admire in women.
I don't have to 'explain' myself to anyone - I'm an adult and my desires and
turn-ons are completely harmless. It's one thing if I'm pursuing teenage
girls, but quite another for me to be drawn towards adult women, no matter
what they look like. Most of my gal-pals know what the deal is with me, and
it's cool, because most of them are into working out. In the past five
years, I've only dated one non-training grrl, but she was naturally strong
and didn't really have to.
> We've been with each other for 4 years now, we've been married a year,
> and now have a 3 month old baby boy. Now my problem is hiding my
> stash of pictures, videos, and magazines (which I have to admit are purely
> wack-off material) from my son.
Congratulations - I wish you nothing but the best, especially now that your
family has a new member. As for hiding stuff from him, I think most dads
leave 'material' lying around the house in places where young boys can
'accidentally' find it. Don't be afraid for your son to share your interests
- I'm not saying that it has to be sexual, but I think that showing your son
the beauty of strength in a woman would be a great thing to do.
--Tre'
Mike Bogen
>
> It funny, I was just thinking about this subject on the way to work this
> morning... I realized that I've had these fantasies about muscular women for
> a VERY long time, as long ago as when I was in the 2nd grade! I find this
I dunno ... I've read that little boys "discover" their penises at about
four months old. Then, of course, we're obsessed with them until that
last, dying gasp, when we're thinking -- as we slip into our final
unconsciousness -- "Gee, I wish I could have f**cked so-and-so." <g>
Mike B.
Lynn
As a professor of English surely you are aware that only words have gender.
Mike Bogen
(intelligent stuff deleted so I can be a wiseass)
> or seeing lava
> spew from the mouth of Pele... Wow... shit! Cool! etc... but I'm never
> tempted to 'whip it out' and schtupp a volcano ;)
You've never schtupped a volcano? Don't knock it 'till you try it,
buddy. <g>
Mike B.
bunb...@dandy.net
LOL. I think William D. Hileman has a point, however. I've stated in the past
that I believe our facination with muscle in women goes deeper than the sexual
level... though people usually say I'm full of shit... :)
In my own case, I find that my sexual response is carried on a different wave
length than my 'wonder' response to muscle/strength. They sometimes
harmonize or overlap, but can play separately as well. For instance... The
late chicana sensation Selina (may she rest in peace) drives me nuts... no
muscle there. Many bodybuilders facinate the heck out of me and cause me to
run all sorts of senarios in my head, but not (necessarily) sexual ones. My
point is if sexual response and muscle can be separated, that might imply
that they are not hard-wired together. It may be possible for some of us to
relate to muscle in a non-sexual manner.
My base response to female muscle or power is the same as seeing one of those
huge hunks of ice fall off of a glacier into the Bering Sea... or seeing lava
spew from the mouth of Pele... Wow... shit! Cool! etc... but I'm never
tempted to 'whip it out' and schtupp a volcano ;)
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
jabber
bunb...@dandy.net wrote in article <6s54dh$vaf$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
><<snip>>
>
> My base response to female muscle or power is the same as seeing one of
those
> huge hunks of ice fall off of a glacier into the Bering Sea... or seeing
lava
> spew from the mouth of Pele... Wow... shit! Cool! etc... but I'm never
> tempted to 'whip it out' and schtupp a volcano ;)
>
Jazzy, this has got to be one of the funniest things I've read in a long
time! Big ha!
-jabber
nobody_in_particular
>...I've stated in the past that I believe our facination with
>muscle in women goes deeper than the sexual level... though
>people usually say I'm full of shit... :)
>My base response to female muscle or power is the same as seeing one of those
>huge hunks of ice fall off of a glacier into the Bering Sea... or seeing lava
>spew from the mouth of Pele... Wow... shit! Cool! etc... but I'm never
>tempted to 'whip it out' and schtupp a volcano ;)
If it isn't a sexual response, then why don't muscular men evoke the same
response. (They sure don't for me.)
Nobody in Particular
bunb...@dandy.net
First... I don't think I said that it 'wasn't' a sexual response. I said it
might 'go deeper' than a merely sexual level. One's general sexual
orientation may effect how this deeper level might manifest itself.
Second... people throw around the word 'sexual' to cover everything. I was
using it to specifically mean that which causes one to desire sex or intimate
contact with another. The 'schtupp a volcano' line aluded to that context.
I would rather see women do just about anything... flex their muscles... bat
their eyes... sign, act, dance, garden, swing a baseball bat or walk down the
street. I can't speak for all heterosexuals, but I suppose it is my general
sexual preference that dictates this. Yet, a woman swinging a ball bat or
trimming a rose bush does not necessarily cause a sexual response in me
(again, one resulting in a desire for intercourse or close contact) I enjoy
the scene for what it is.
So many folks seem to think that FBBs and amazons in general are either
fodder for masterbation or game in the sights of one's sexual weapon. There
is a general conception that we ALL 'get off' on this stuff, with the
implication that ANY suggestion that there is some OTHER component present in
our attraction is dishonest.
Whenever I assert this, someone invariably says "Oh come on... who are you
trying to kid?" I'm not trying to kid anyone. I AM (primarily though not
exclusively) sexually attracted to Amazons... BUT I'm not necessarily
sexually attracted to most amazons whom I find facinating. I don't look at
ANY... repeat ANY FBBs on a contest stage and say to myself "<gurrgle>... I
sure wish I could hop on that... <slobber>" (catch me when they're in
off-season ;) In many cases, the same women on that stage however DO elicit
an unspoken awe and a thought like "Je-us... she's freaking amazing! How on
earth did she get that big/hard/whatever... I've never seen a women so
whatever... I never thought a woman could be that way"
I fail to see why this is so damned hard to understand. I get some kind of
flack (not that this post was 'flack') from amazon admirers every time I state
this opinion. It just mystifies me to no end.
I'm just trying to point out that there is something else besides the desire
towards sexual gratification via the amazon in play here. That in me, and
perhaps in others who consider themselves amazon admirers, there is an
appreciation that transcends personal sexual gratification or desire.
Jazz Fan
thehardwareman
have time to schtupp more volcanos. But then I guess the schtupp's of the many
outway the schtupp's of the few (or one in your case). :-)
Thanks for the site,
THM
bunb...@dandy.net wrote:
<he doesn't schtupp...>
EK
was a kid I would and still do enjoy pictures of female bodybuilders,
stop by a newsstand and look at them flexing ...Every time my nephews
come over though I have to hide the newsgroup photos and play the game
of innocence...It's tough because I am so honest it hurts. You are not
alone my dear friend.
Gene
LuvFeMuscl
>From: EK <slid...@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Sun, Aug 30, 1998 16:17 EDT
>Message-id: <35E9B380...@frontiernet.net>
I have had various similar experiences. My love for female muscle predates the
public emergence of women's bodybuilding in and around 1978-1980. Clearly, for
me, it has an extraordinary sexual component, as some bodybuilding women and
certain fantasies provoke intense arousal for me.
I have been 'found out' at times, and I always deny it. The woman I came
closest to marrying found a cpy of WPW and called me out on it. I made up some
b.s. story about my cousin, but she knew I was lying. My reasons for doing so,
at that time, are not so obvious though. She asked me within the first week or
two that I knew her whether I liked bodybuilding women. She said her father
did and guessed that I did, too. She said how ugly she thought those women
were, and I deniedmy attraction then, because it seemed to be the right answer.
So, I lied to spare her, and me, too, from dealing with the issue. But it
sabotaged our relationship--she didn't forget my lie. I guess I didn't do the
right thing, but I wonder if I could be open enough to admit this unexplainable
attraction (impulse, really) to a woman with whom I am involved romantically.
William D. Hileman
This has nothing directly to do with women bodybuilders, but it's similar...
My first wife was incredibly insecure with her body, she always thought she
was too skinny. Once, after we were married (it only lasted a year) she
asked me point blank if I liked large breasts (she was as flat-chested as a
boy) and I figured why lie... I said sure, but that doesn't mean I don't
find you attractive! That was pretty much the start of the end of our
relationship. She was the type of person to throw away my Playboy magazines
before I even saw them come in the mail, she went through all my videos and
hid every one that was even "R" rated, etc.
My current wife is much more open, she has no insecurities like that,
encourages me to read Playboy, watch videos, etc., because it makes our sex
even better. She even encourages me to make comments when we spot a
particularly pretty woman, and she makes similar comments when she spots an
attractive man, and it doesn't threaten either of us. Funny thing is I've
never told her about my love for female bodybuilders but I'm pretty sure she
knows, since I have a couple of pictures on my wall at the office, and she's
seen them. She doesn't seem to care one way or the other. In some ways
she's already an amazon, she's 6' tall, same as me. I've gotten her a
membership at a local gym, and she'll start using it as soon as she's done
nursing our twins (at about age one) but I doubt she's going for the FBB
look, she just wants to get back into shape, which is fine with me, I'm no
Arnold myself :)
--
Bill Hileman, PDGA #1577, HDD #001
dasi...@gator.net
Dad of Twins Dustin & Dylan!
>I have had various similar experiences. My love for female muscle predates
bbfa
many in this ng, mine started young - when I was eight years old. I suspect
it came partly from the fact that my older sister, of whom I was and am very
fond, was quite athletic and muscular. My mother was not muscular or
athletic at all (even before she was partially crippled by polio) but had a
very strong personality.
I wonder if part of the attraction we feel is a way of dealing with our own
aggression. We feel aggressive but don't actually want to hurt another
person. With a muscular woman we can safely vent that.
Perhaps it is a simple attraction to power.
I think it is more than their beauty or superior health, since some
bodybuilders are not especially healthy.
Thoughts?
apathy, inc.
I don't recall reading any other posts by you, bbfa, but you brought up
some very good points, MOST of which I agree with (not saying which ones I
don't agree with - hehe).
-ap (aka female muscle lover since knee high to an fbb's calves!)
Buttsbnny
>before I even saw them come in the mail, she went through all my videos and
No offense because I don;t know you or your past wife but I would not want a
man who wished to look at any other women. I don't feel the need to look at
anyone but my husband and would not settle for anything less
apathy, inc.
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote in article
>
> No offense because I don;t know you or your past wife but I would not
want a
> man who wished to look at any other women. I don't feel the need to look
at
> anyone but my husband and would not settle for anything less
>
Okay, so let me get this straight, you, Buttsbnny, are female, and you
don't live in the real world? Somehow, why doesn't that surprise me?
Because a woman doesn't feel the need to look at another man has NOTHING to
do with men's needs to look at another man. What about men's visual
nature? Just because a Vietnamese pot-belly pig may not harm a child, that
DOESN'T mean a wild boar won't! One has nothing to do with the other.
Read a psychology book or three. However, what a man DOES based upon his
visual nature IS completely under his control (I am not in any way, shape,
or form, condoning cheating on one's mate - by the man OR the woman).
Oh if you don't believe your husband EVER looks at any other women, again
you're not living in the real world.
-ap (aka controversial but true)
Buttsbnny
>do with men's needs to look at another man.
Boy did I laugh myself silly over this one - not sure if you ment this screw up
or not but it was damn funny.
Mike Bogen
>
> >She was the type of person to throw away my Playboy magazines
> >before I even saw them come in the mail, she went through all my videos and
>
> man who wished to look at any other women. I don't feel the need to look at
> anyone but my husband and would not settle for anything less
One question ... you've read this newsgroup, and you know that there are
guys in the audience who look at you when you are on stage in a contest,
-- or look at your pictures on the internet -- who are NOT looking at
you strictly as an athlete, but also as a woman ... and in some cases,
as the epitome of the kind of woman to which they are sexually
attracted.
Given that, and your really strong thoughts about "men looking at other
women," don't you feel like you're "the other woman" in some
relationships? Don't you agree that the wives of these men should forbid
them from attending your contests, or throw away a magazine in which
your picture is to be found?
Don't think you quite thought this one through, Steph :)
Mike B.
William D. Hileman
"Just because I'm on a diet, doesn't mean I can't look at the menu!"
My (and my wife's) attraction to other people does not intimidate nor
threaten either one of us, it's harmless, an appreciation of beauty, nothing
more, nothing less.
--
Bill Hileman, PDGA #1577, HDD #001
dasi...@gator.net
Dad of Twins Dustin & Dylan!
Buttsbnny wrote in message
<199809100329...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
apathy, inc.
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199809100435...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Glad you had a laugh, I meant "at another woman" of course. The -apster's
been doing more cut and paste than was prudent there, sorry.
-ap
Buttsbnny
>women," don't you feel like you're "the other woman" in some
>relationships? Don't you agree that the wives of these men should forbid
>them from attending your contests, or throw away a magazine in which
>your picture is to be found?
Good question Mike - but no I don't consider myself the other woman. First off
because I am not a willing participant in their fantasies - I am competing as
an athlete on stage and I do so for myself. But also because I think that a
person should marry the person they love and are attracted to. If you are very
compelled to bodybuilding physiques then that is who you should aim to be with.
I just think it is sad that anyone would settle for less and then have to
sneek off to look at the photos of women they are sexually attracted to. It is
not much fun to have to hide who you are as a person and if the woman you are
with does not even know that person that is even more sad.
Obviously there are guys who attend my shows who look at the women in a sexual
way. I don't have any problem with that - that is thier life and not my
business. But in my own life I would not settle for less. I would not want my
husband to be looking at other women. Perhaps that is close minded of me since
I happen to be lucky enough to be a female bb but it is the way I feel non the
less. Why bother being with someone when they are not everything you want and
you need to look at others? Makes no sense to me
apathy, inc.
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199809101543...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> I would not want my
> husband to be looking at other women.
>
So you really believe that is the case? You believe this delusion? Pardon
me while I clear my throat: he-he-he all the way home!
-ap (have a merry fantasy life, buttsbnny!)
Buttsbnny
>
My what an unusual amount of animosity towards someone you don;t even know
. How sad for you that you don't believe a man is capable of being faithful-
but that is your issue not mine. How you chose to live your life is your
monkey and not a problem of mine hon:)
But regardless of how you feel men behave why would you even care how I live or
think? You know nothing about me as a person- that is sort of sad that you
chose to be such an angry person
Ssscold
that he is one of the most upbeat, positive regulars here. I don't know him,
but from what I read of him, he's the kind of guy who not only thinks the
proverbial glass of water is half full, but he also thinks that it's great
water and that it more than quenches his thirst.
Ain't that the truth?
apathy, inc.
Ssscold <sss...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199809111752...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
Thanx for your support, Ssscold. And I personally don't know you, but I
appreciate the kind words. And you are right, I guess I didn't use enough
smileys but he-he-he all the way home? I'm LAUGHING not angry, Buttsbnny!
-ap (aka Upbeat, Positive Regular - hehe)
apathy, inc.
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote in article
>
> My what an unusual amount of animosity towards someone you don’t even
know
>
I don't NEED to know you, Buttsbnny, you are simply saying stuff that
doesn't wash. And I'm pointing that out. I am far from angry at you.
>
> . How sad for you that you don't believe a man is capable of being
faithful-
> but that is your issue not mine.
>
Please tell me WHERE I said a man is NOT capable of being faithful!!!???!!!
All I said is that he will LOOK at someone else. Of COURSE he has control
of his actions. But he DOES look. You stating your husband does NOT look
shows me that's what you want to believe. And he WILL tell you anything
you want to hear. But I AM not accusing him of being unfaithful, UNLESS
you think looking DOES constitute unfaithfulness.
>
> How you chose to live your life is your
> monkey and not a problem of mine hon:)
>
Did I give you "permission" to call me hon, Buttsbnny? How many strange
(and yes I AM strange - hehe) men do you call hon? And then smile at?
Buttsbnny, you just cheated on YOUR husband. Not only did you call me hon
AND smile at me, you don't even know what I look like!
Gee, this is good (AND funny as hell!). I only 'look' when I'm in a
relationship. I don't need to tell you whether I cheat or not, that's not
your problem, agreed. But in no way, shape, or form, did I say I condoned
cheating, only looking. And whether or not I condone it, it isn't going to
cause it to happen nor prevent it from happening.
>
> But regardless of how you feel men behave why would you even care how I
live or
> think?
>
Because contrary to my email address, I "do" care. :-) (oops, sorry for
flirting) I feel you are living in a delusional dreamworld and, Buttsbnny,
I just felt like telling you so. So there! :-)
>
> You know nothing about me as a person- that is sort of sad that you
> chose to be such an angry person
>
I HAVE learned how you think. And I'm far from angry, trust me on that
one.
-ap (aka female watcher)
Buttsbnny
More like condesending - that is not truly a good natured hehehe. And you can
not say "living in a dream world " to someone and have it not be angry in tone.
But rest assured- your anger (or lack there of) is not my problem or concern.
Just like what you do is not my concern. I just stated my opinion - did not
put anyone down for it - just stated my opinion...and there is a difference
between an opinion and a snide comment
apathy, inc.
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote in article
> More like condesending - that is not truly a good natured hehehe.
>
Hmm, so your hehehe is better natured than my hehehe - gosh this is funny!
Despite myself, I'm getting to like you, Buttsbnny, you ARE a muscular
woman, right? Hence the subject.
>
> And you can
> not say "living in a dream world " to someone and have it not be angry in
tone.
>
Let's see "living in a dream world" - gee I was smiling during the duration
of that phrase.
>
> But rest assured- your anger (or lack there of) is not my problem or
concern.
> Just like what you do is not my concern. I just stated my opinion - did
not
> put anyone down for it - just stated my opinion...and there is a
difference
> between an opinion and a snide comment
>
On come on, that was just a snide opinion on my part. It is your opinion
that your husband doesn't look at other women. If that was the case, there
would be a bunch of dead female pedestrians EVERY TIME HE DRIVES TO WORK!
hehe
Gotcha!
-ap (hehe)
Buttsbnny
I was quoting your reaction - go back and read again. It was not my incerion
but rather a comment on your orrigional post>Hmm, so your hehehe is better
Nick Cave
in love. i say congratulations. even though the cynics in us, and our
experiences make us aware that some of her assertions are a bit naive
[ALL men look, as do ALL women], so what?
i realize that by posting her opinion, she becomes fair game to have
that opinion challenged and refuted. but geez, don't any of us
know/recall/fantasize about how wonderful a truly loving relationship
can be? i think we should cut her a little slack for now. in many
cases, unfortunately, the bloom falls off the roses soon enough.
Buttsbnny
Not all of us. I honestly don't. That may sound funny to the cynics (and I am
probably worse than all of them in that department although my previous posts
do not sound it) I truly do not have an interest in any one but my husband. I
receive e-mail and photos from men on a regular basis and my responses are
polite but never leaving any doubt of who I care for. And you will seriously
never catch me looking at anyone at any of the shows I go to either. No my
style - I would rather have the good person I have than anyone else:) I wish
you all the same happiness and then maybe someday you will understand
tres...@yahoo.com
> Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote:
> > I would not want my
> > husband to be looking at other women.
Yeah, and people in hell want ice water and central cooling, but you can't
always gets what you want.
--Tre'
tres...@yahoo.com
butt...@aol.com (Buttsbnny) wrote:
> My what an unusual amount of animosity towards someone you don;t even know
> . How sad for you that you don't believe a man is capable of being faithful-
> but that is your issue not mine. How you chose to live your life is your
> monkey and not a problem of mine hon:)
> But regardless of how you feel men behave why would you even care how I live
or
> think? You know nothing about me as a person- that is sort of sad that you
> chose to be such an angry person
Buttsbnny...what the phuque are you talking about?? "Animosity"??
Any fool can see that Apathy was just yanking your chain. If you think that
merely "looking at other women" equates to being unfaithful, then you've got
a big problem and if you think that your hubby *doesn't* do it, then you've
got an even bigger problem called "denial".
On the contrary, we *do* know something about you as a person based on what
you've posted in this forum, so you can carry that tired argument elsewhere.
No one's angry with you...I get the impression that they're all just trying
to help you over that naivete.
tres...@yahoo.com
> More like condesending - that is not truly a good natured hehehe. And you can
> not say "living in a dream world " to someone and have it not be angry in
tone.
> But rest assured- your anger (or lack there of) is not my problem or concern.
> Just like what you do is not my concern. I just stated my opinion - did not
> put anyone down for it - just stated my opinion...and there is a difference
> between an opinion and a snide comment
You stupid trick. (now *that* was a snide comment)
Apathy has only a few serious bones in his body and would never poke fun at
something for the sake of meanness, ergo, shut the hell up and get your ass
back in the gym where it belongs.
tres...@yahoo.com
Nick Cave wrote:
> but geez, don't any of us know/recall/fantasize about how wonderful a truly
> loving relationship can be?
Duh, we've all read about them - they're called "fairy tales".
The perfect loving relationship for *me* is one where my wife isn't a naive
little trick.
tres...@yahoo.com
Buttsbnny wrote:
> Not all of us. I honestly don't.
Yeah, and the Virgin Mary never gave Joe a hummer.
> I truly do not have an interest in any one but my husband.
I believe that - but simply looking at someone else does not mean you're
interested in them.
> And you will seriously never catch me looking at anyone at any of the shows I
> go to either.
That's because most of the guys at the "shows" are either ugly or gay...hardly
the top choice of *most* women. So, this is not a surprising revelation.
Buttsbnny
seemed to hit a nerve with just voicing my opinion. Again - I was not judging
how other people live their lives- and if you read each of my posts none are
mean spirited (unlike several who have responded).
I am beginning to understand why the other female bbs just avoid this news
group - it is obviously a spot for people who want to argue no matter what.
That is not really my thing. Later
rwoo...@cyberramp.net
>I am beginning to understand why the other female bbs just avoid this news
>group - it is obviously a spot for people who want to argue no matter what.
>That is not really my thing. Later
I don't think argumentativeness is the only reason "why other female
bbs just avoid this news group." Participation is voluntary, leaving
is your choice, USENET goes on. Bye.
Nick Cave
"The perfect loving relationship for *me* is one where my wife isn't a
naive little trick."
--Tre'
call me naive, pal, but when you say "trick", you mean.....one who turns
tricks? ...what?
as far as naive, my bet is that an hour with you and your cynicism and
sourness will effectively obliterate any traces of your partners
possible naivette. :)
nick
Nick Cave
>...and if you read each of my posts none are >mean spirited (unlike
several who have >responded).
i agree with you here. by no stretch do i see you as having been rude or
insulting etc. however, imo you did over-react a bit to apathy's
good-natured [again imo] dig. it happens...
>I am beginning to understand why the other >female bbs just avoid this
news group - it is >obviously a spot for people who want to argue >no
matter what. That is not really my thing. >Later>
look stephanie, if everyone here left everytime another disagreed or was
a tad rude to them, this would be a ghost infested NG - take it from me.
it's your choice, of course, if posting here is not worth it - but i've
seen you handle a helluva lot worse on another NG. i hope you'll post
whatever and whenever you damn well feel like it. here's how i look at
it:
there are some geniuses and paragons of all things virtuous on this NG.
[they are the one's usually seen agreeing with me - lol. ] the rest,
well.....you catch my drift, right?
Nick Cave
>Apathy has only a few serious bones in his >body and would never poke
fun at something >for the sake of meanness, ergo, shut the hell >up and
get your ass back in the gym where it >belongs.
>--Tre' >
what the hell's got you so bent out of shape, here. i mean, i like you
and all, but you sure seem to be coming down pretty hard on someone for
not much of a reason. so steph believes in love, and her husband -
where's the high crime in that? here's hoping you're merely having a bad
day
nick
Nick Cave
gay...hardly the top choice of *most* women. So, this is not a
surprising revelation."
--Tre'
say WHAT??!! well, you sure had me fooled!! LOL.
on the other hand, when I'm at a show, I'm not checking out the guys.
[I'd insert a 'wink' here, but fear it'll be misconstrued as a come-on,
rather than a good-natured dig.]
so when do you plan to let your fbb friends know? :^)
nick
aka happy to be in the minority of good-looking and hetero show
attendees.........
Buttsbnny
>there are some geniuses and paragons of all things virtuous on this NG.
>[they are the one's usually seen agreeing with me - lol. ] the rest,
>well.....you catch my drift, right?
I do see your point Nick. I get a bit disillusioned with folks over the
internet with rude behavior - it is just not something I care to be part of. I
treat people the same in person as I do on the computer - not differently
because there is a screne to hide behind. So I get disillusioned when people
are rude without cause because their computer offers them the protection to be
so.
And in the past week I have seen more unkind posts in regard to Anne Marie and
Nicole and others I care to see. These people do not even know these women and
yet they put them down. This makes little sense to me. Prefering one physique
to another is fine - that is a choice - but being insulting and unkind is just
classless.
My response of "later:" to these people was not so much saying I did not intend
to post but that I did not intend to feed their poor manars and that I was not
going to respond to them. I stated that I could understand why other female
bbs avoid the group was to let them know that they chase the very people they
speak about and admire off with their behavior. It seems that they would
rather just look at a picture than talk to the real thing - or else they would
make more of an effort to be polite and joke in a kind way.
Nick Cave
"And in the past week I have seen more unkind posts in regard to Anne
Marie and Nicole and others I care to see. These people do not even know
these women and yet they put them down. This makes little sense to me.
Prefering one physique to another is fine - that is a choice - but being
insulting and unkind is just classless."
i don't believe any of the "unkind posts" you refer to have anything to
do with insulting their physiques.
I'll only defend myself here, ok? simply because these two [and you] are
living embodiments of the subject of this NG, does not give any of you a
pass. if you choose to post here, your opinions are not immune to
critcism and disagreement, which I totally condone when done in a
respectful way. nobody complains when they are agreed with, which
happens just as often, right? yea, the vulgarities and crudeness from a
few suck - just as in any gathered group. incorrect behavior is just
that - but shouldn't be confused with a simple difference of opinion.
in Nicole's case, her appearance on Stern's tv show was, at the least
controversial [in my mind humiliating, vulgar, and the VERY last thing
fbb needs]. simply because she's fbb NB does not mean that those of us
who saw it and were appalled should keep their keyboards silent, even
though I mostly did. there were certainly plenty of people who defended
her - so what do you have? a NG with differing opinions on a relevant
subject to this NG.
in AM's regard, I'll let my posts speak for themselves. but my
motivation to write them stems from rebutting posts written either by
her, or on her behalf. the fact that she encouraged and supports the
always refined DrBo doesn't help when trying to restrain myself. now
THAT'S, as you say, "classless".
Buttsbnny
>I'll only defend myself here, ok? simply because these two [and you] are
>living embodiments of the subject of this NG, does not give any of you a
>pass. if you choose to post here, your opinions are not immune to
>critcism and disagreement, which I totally condone when done in a
>respectful way
As do I- it is not the 'disagreement' that is of issue- everyone is entitled to
their opinion and I don't expect people to agree with me on everything - I just
expect that they would present their arguments in an intelligent and respectful
fashion. (I am not accusing you here at all- just clairifying)
From what I can see there are a few on the group that appear to enjoy putting
down a fbb on a personal level - perhaps that is their own sexual fetish, I
don't know. But I don't find this an appropriate venue for that. Preference
is one thing - active unkindness is something of a different animal. That is
what I was commenting on before. Obviously not everyone is that way - there
are several very nice members of the group who I have spoken to - but it just
takes a few to run folks off - no one likes to deal with unkind behavior....can
not think of anyone who would actively chose to have it in their lives
As to the posts on Anne Marie and Nicole - everyone is entitled to say whether
they agree or not with their behavior (ie. Nicole on Howard Stern) but there
are more appropriate ways to voice this rather than openly being insulting.
Not everone communicates that way on the group- but there are a few who seem to
make it a habit. I don;t know if they do it to fill up their lives and feel
significant or if they just can not help themselves and have poor social skills
but I am just going to place their posts on ignore so that I do not even have
to see them listed on my board. I would suggest the other ladies do the same.
tres...@yahoo.com
Still on her moral high horse, Buttsbnny wrote:
> I just expect that they would present their arguments in an intelligent and
> respectful fashion. (I am not accusing you here at all- just clairifying)
Mmmm, *my* perception is that you *are* "accusing". Just as you perceive
certain comments to be unkind, I consider this comment to be rather
condescending. I'm not saying that I disagree with you (in fact, on this
matter, I don't), but I think you're looking down upon those people who just
want to rant. Of course, that is your right.
> From what I can see there are a few on the group that appear to enjoy putting
> down a fbb on a personal level - perhaps that is their own sexual fetish...
WHAT?? Perhaps (we) they *have* gotten to you, because I don't see how
having a fetish plays into this at all. I mean, we've *all* got fetishes
(even though I use 'preferences'), but I would *never* look down on someone
for their fetish, unless it involves carrying out acts with children or
others who are unable to give proper consent. In other words, if your hubby
enjoys urinating on you after you two have made love, then hey, that's cool
with me. I certainly don't think any less of you two because of it.
> but there are a few who seem to make it a habit. I don;t know if they do it
> to fill up their lives and feel significant or if they just can not help
> themselves and have poor social skills
Gosh, for someone who professes to be so "kind" and crap, you sure are taking
a lot of swipes at the populace today. "To fill up their lives and feel
significant"?? "Poor social skills"?? There you go again with that same
MEAN-SPIRITED condescension, and you know it, so don't even try to deny it.
> I would suggest the other ladies do the same.
So, because you can't handle a little heat, you're mounting a massive
campaign against free speech? Geez...I think you're cool, but now you're
making yourself an easy target. But...I'll cut you a deal, no strings
attached. I'm not going to say another cross word to you for the rest of the
week. Deal? Good.
Always,
Buttsbnny
>MEAN-SPIRITED condescension, and you know it, so don't even try to deny it.
Nope- definatly not mean spirited I am just being honest in the most polite way
I possibly can - trust me if I were being mean you would know it, I rarely hold
back when I am truly mad. But if you want to see it that way it is no surprise
to me.
I figure you are just looking to support your behavior. And my origional
post of not *accusing* was directed at Nick. If you want me to accuse you-
fine. You are rude and there are pleanty of other ways you can voice your
opinions without insulting people. Funny how you got immediatly defensive
though since I did not name names.
LuvFeMuscl
Mike,
Since I kind of started this thread, i'm throwing my other two cents in . I've
seen Steph's website. She's an extraordinarily pretty and SEXY woman. I don't
know her or her husband, but I'm a little jealous of him. I'm sure almost
every guy in her gym looks at her in that special way, at least sometime. I
know women are different, but I'd be surprised if Steph or any other women
could so turn off their normal impulses that they don't look at other men. You
look when you're singel, you will still look when you are attached. Maybe a
little more discriminating than your single days, but you will look.
LuvFeMuscl
Are you "the" Nick Cave? The Bad Seed himself? I think it's col the way
you've hit it since Wings of Desire.
LuvFeMuscl
Did you see my post at the beginning of this thread--everyone else seemed to
ignore it--ready to carry on their own private little wars.
I'm not sure where it originates--but, maybe it's more of an innate
impulse--you respond as you do--with a sexual attraction/impulse to the
sstimuli of seeing or fantasizing about muscular women--for no discernible
reason or event in your past.
As I wrote, I had the attraction and fantasies before I ever saw or heard of a
female bodybuilder. But when I saw the article in SI and saw Laura Combes on
Real People (actually first saw promos), I was overcome with sexual excitement
and desire. I doubt this excitement and desire that I felt has an origin that
is any more traceable than homosexuality. It just is. I guess we should revel
in it. Too bad we feel so closeted most of the time. In that respect, i think
it would be easier to be gay, than to be attracted to muscular women. There
are more of us than there are muscular women. And it's really not accepted or
understood at all.
Buttsbnny
>I've
>seen Steph's website. She's an extraordinarily pretty and SEXY woman. I
>don't
>know her or her husband, but I'm a little jealous of him. I'm sure almost
>every guy in her gym looks at her in that special way, at least sometime. I
>know women are different, but I'd be surprised if Steph or any other women
>could so turn off their normal impulses that they don't look at other men.
>You
>look when you're singel, you will still look when you are attached. Maybe a
>little more discriminating than your single days, but you will look.
>
Thanks for the nice complement:) I know many find it hard to believe but I
honestly do not look. Some of the reason I don't is that I know and value the
person I have and know that there really is not anyone else out there I would
rather be with- regardless of the package or how good others think it is.
Perhaps it is hard for most people not to look - but my life experiences have
been different than most and I am very happy with the good person I have:)
Nick Cave
(EDT+4) From: luvfe...@aol.com (LuvFeMuscl) Re: Why do we like
muscular Women?
you've hit it since Wings of Desire.
no - lol. Cave is a shorter version of my last name - but I am a big
fan.
Rami
>
>Mike,
>
>Since I kind of started this thread, i'm throwing my other two cents in . I've
>seen Steph's website. She's an extraordinarily pretty and SEXY woman. I don't
>know her or her husband, but I'm a little jealous of him. I'm sure almost
>every guy in her gym looks at her in that special way, at least sometime. I
>know women are different, but I'd be surprised if Steph or any other women
>could so turn off their normal impulses that they don't look at other men. You
>look when you're singel, you will still look when you are attached. Maybe a
>little more discriminating than your single days, but you will look.
Well!!!
I like mascular women very much , I feel that their mascularity
increases the natural power of sex appeal already inherited to the
woman body , My favorite part is the woman's abs. I found the
retaliation between her abs and her organ to be shockingly sexual , as
if she is saying , I order u to come in ...
Another way of saying it ..most women in the usa are in need to be
protected by laws like sexual herestmant , but fbb doesn't need a law
like that.. in fact , she can demand and Take!!! from the man her
sexual needs...
When I walk on the streets I always find myself in a situation where I
look at females to see if they carry any biceps definition , well most
of them don't . but still , to see a woman like that , so strong and
power full , so much in control , so much ALIVE!! , is a great thing
for me , the control the power and the physical health , but above all
, its the fact that she is overpowering or should I say realizing my
most intense sexual desires in a very concentrated way...
The legs long strong and macular , u climb up through them till u
reach the tunnel to heaven...:)
And the back so wide...so defined so macular , the base element for
unsurpassed domination....
So...this is why I love mascular females , although most likely I'll
have to live life with out it
****
as far as this site mentioned above , please let us know the address
Bests
Rami
apathy, inc.
Buttsbnny <butt...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980918191211...@ng19.aol.com>...
>
> Thanks for the nice complement:) I know many find it hard to believe but
I
> honestly do not look.
>
I'll be sure not to be a pedestrian anywhere you drive! I never attacked
your saying you don't look, I attacked your saying your husband doesn't
look (or you believing him). That does NOT mean he won't be a loving
faithful husband that you (probably) deserve. I don't know you so I can't
say definitely deserve. You can understand that.
>
> Some of the reason I don't is that I know and value the
> person I have and know that there really is not anyone else out there I
would
> rather be with- regardless of the package or how good others think it is.
>
Now how many ex-girlfriends did I feel that way about? :-)
>
> Perhaps it is hard for most people not to look - but my life experiences
have
> been different than most and I am very happy with the good person I
have:)
>
And if you've been so blessed, just realize that 99.9% have NOT and don't
be disparaging toward them, either, you know.
Naive, cute, and muscular, what a combination, Steph... :-)
-ap
Buttsbnny
>And if you've been so blessed, just realize that 99.9% have NOT and don't
>be disparaging toward them, either, you know.
>
Yipes bitter! :)~ But if it is any consilation I used to be just as sceptical
and jaded - and when it comes to any other man I am extremely jaded. I feel
lucky for the rare find I have- but don't take that for disparaging others. I
dont - I never put anyone else down for what they do (that is really not my
business or concern) I just said it is not what I wanted for my life.
tres...@yahoo.com
Previously, I had written: "But...I'll cut you a deal, no strings
attached. I'm not going to say another cross word to you for the rest of the
week. Deal? Good." That was on over a week ago and, true to my word, I said
nothing else on this matter for the rest of the week." (to Buttsbnny)
And then she replied:
Buttsbnny wrote:
> Funny how you got immediatly defensive though since I did not name names.
You've got to be pretty good because, in my life to this point, I've never
been "defensive" about anything. "Offensive" maybe, but "defensive"...never.
But, I'll be totally honest here - picking on you was fun for a day or so,
but then it got boring. That's just the way I am sometimes. I'm not asking
for forgiveness, nor am I apologizing - I'm simply stating that you were the
'jackpot' individual who just so happened to piss me off on that particular
day. No harm was intended (I guess that's a *mild* apology).
Anyway, it's all good now - what's past is past, and so, we press on.
I wish you and everyone all the best.
Happy training,