Roswell and Weather Ballon
David R Fritz
thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
someone could answer this question.
If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
confenscated?
Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
analisis? This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
David STAFFORD
David R Fritz <ta...@cape.com> wrote in message
news:376C66A4...@cape.com...
Greatings from Roswell, Here is the answer you all have been waitng
for --Because it wasn't a balloon. Peace from Roswell , David S.
twi...@worldnet.att.net
>I have been going over some notes of the Roswell incident. There is one
>thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
>someone could answer this question.
>
>If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
>Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
>base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
>confenscated?
Part of the debris was from a sounding balloon, quite
different than a normal pibald balloon that was used for
normal meteorological measurements. Pibalds were brightly
colored to make it easy to see them. Sounding balloons were
simply gray with no added pigments because they feared that
the pigments would weaken the balloons and make them not go
as high.
The rest, the majority, of the debris was from an ML-307
radar target which no one at Roswell had ever seen. These
were used with sounding balloons for gun-laying and
high-altitude research projects.
>Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
>analisis?
Why not? He did cancel the special flight (statement by
Irving Newton).
What did Col. Trakowski say about this?
>This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
>balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
>ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
>
Alas, they had never seen a sounding balloon and a radar
target.
Now, why did Marcel claim that the photo taken of him with
the debris was with the 'real' debris that he had brought up
from Roswell?
That debris is of an ML-307 and a sounding balloon!
Additionally, the term flying saucer or flying disc didn't
mean alien spacecraft in 1947. Neither to the military nor
to the populace at large.
>
It may be that the race is not always to the swift
nor the battle to the strong - but that is the
way to bet.
Damon Runyon
twi...@worldnet.att.net
>
>David R Fritz <ta...@cape.com> wrote in message
>news:376C66A4...@cape.com...
>> I have been going over some notes of the Roswell incident. There is one
>> thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
>> someone could answer this question.
>>
>> If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
>> Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
>> base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
>> confenscated?
>> Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
>> analisis? This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
>> balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
>> ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
>>
>
> Greatings from Roswell, Here is the answer you all have been waitng
>for --Because it wasn't a balloon. Peace from Roswell , David S.
>
>
Partially true. The majority of the debris was a radar
target.
Scott A. Munro
wrote:
>I have been going over some notes of the Roswell incident. There is one
>thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
>someone could answer this question.
>
>If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
>Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
>base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
>confenscated?
Here's an alternative question: If what crashed on the Foster Ranch
was an alien spaceship, why doesn't anyone who saw the stuff describe
anything like a spaceship or aircraft? Why was it necessary to invent
"other crash sites" in order to push the spaceship claims?
Here's another: Why does the Roswell Field press release say nothing
about a spaceship?
>Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
>analisis?
Can you provide any solid evidence that this flight to Wright Field
actually took place after Ramey saw the debris?
>This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
>balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
>ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
Why do you think that military types were not subject to the same
saucer-related goofiness as the rest of the population in the couple
of weeks following the Kenneth Arnold sighting?
http://www.parascope.com/NS/GetLHP?url=/articles/0797/rainufo.htm
-----
Scott A. Munro
Paint Shop Pro 5 tutorials and my digital photos
http://www.nextdim.com/users/smunro/
Scott A. Munro
>your message boards are closed?
They're not mine. I have nothing to do with the ParaScope site other
than having that article posted there.
From the message on the site, it sounds like they intend to bring the
boards back online sometime.
ne...@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk
>David R Fritz <ta...@cape.com> wrote:
>
>>I have been going over some notes of the Roswell incident. There is one
>>thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
>>someone could answer this question.
>>
>>If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
>>Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
>>base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
>>confenscated?
>
>different than a normal pibald balloon that was used for
>normal meteorological measurements. Pibalds were brightly
>colored to make it easy to see them. Sounding balloons were
>simply gray with no added pigments because they feared that
>the pigments would weaken the balloons and make them not go
>as high.
>
Mmmmm, But they were still good old fashioned Neoprene just like
the other balloons Mack had found in the past according to his
family and friends.
Though they (NYU) did start trying out those new Polythene balloons
around this time though still flying them mixed with the Neoprene.
>The rest, the majority, of the debris was from an ML-307
>radar target which no one at Roswell had ever seen. These
>were used with sounding balloons for gun-laying and
>high-altitude research projects.
>
All made out of good old fahioned standard aluminum foil backed
paper, balsa wood and fishing twine, very ordinary materials, easily
identifiable, not too uncommon in use, The ML307's even had the numbers
stenciled on the reflectors so you knew what they were, an ML307!.
Infact they were made out of the same stuff the other types of radar
reflectors were made of, that I'm sure they HAD seen.
>
>>Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
>>analisis?
Exactly, not only Ramey but why didn't the combined forces of the 509th,
Command, Intelligence and CIC sections identify foil backed paper, balsa
wood and fishing twine.
>
>Why not? He did cancel the special flight (statement by
>Irving Newton).
>
? Did he really ?
Part of "URGENT" teletype from Dallas FBI office to Washington FBI HQ
6.17pm CST 9th July 1947 :
"Disc and balloon being transported to Wright Field by special plane for
examination"...
(Full transcript on web site below)
That's AFTER Newton said it was a balloon at 5.30pm CST and AFTER Ramey
alledgedly said the special flight was off, think it was the Base IO who actually
said it, on the phone to a news reporter, he said he had the debris in the
office and thats where it was going to stay. Just about the time the FBI were
sending the teletype to Washington Ramey was giving his live piece on WBAP
radio, again saying it was all a big mistake and just a balloon.
>What did Col. Trakowski say about this?
>
>>This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
>>balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
>>ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
>>
Not only could have BUT SHOULD HAVE..... thats assuming it was.
>
>Alas, they had never seen a sounding balloon and a radar
>target.
>
Proir to 1947 Maj Marcel had been on 2 extensive RADAR training
courses I guess those didn't include radar reflectors and the tracking
of same attached to balloons?.
As for the balloons being launched at Alamogordo both the sounding
balloons for the V2 test launches were known about and the guy's
from NYU (MOGUL) were in almost daily contact with RAAF, shortly
after the July incident their flight 5 tracked directly over the base
together with it's chase plane and landed 34 miles east of the base.
It was recovered and wasn't classified as a "flying disc". Due to the
poor quality of the tracking obtained from the ML307's with the sets
of the time very few of the "MOGUL" flights seem to have used the
reflectors at all, there is also some evidence from the NYU records
that the "gulty" Flight 4 alledged to have caused the Incident might
have actually been launched WITHOUT the ML307 reflector cluster.
>Now, why did Marcel claim that the photo taken of him with
>the debris was with the 'real' debris that he had brought up
>from Roswell?
>
Because it most likly was. (see web site below for these photo's)
>That debris is of an ML-307 and a sounding balloon!
>
Nope... too many items in the pictures don't fit the specified materials
in the original 1946 engineering drawings.
>Additionally, the term flying saucer or flying disc didn't
>mean alien spacecraft in 1947. Neither to the military nor
>to the populace at large.
>
True, nobody had any idea what the "disc's" were at that time, look at all
the fuss in surviving documents the military went to about gathering data
on them, even requesting the aid of the FBI (The Hoover Memo).
Another point, at that time the the concept of the size of the "discs" was
somewhat different from what it is today, the size of the disc's at that time
were thought of as much smaller 2 - 6 feet, rather than that of the "classic"
30 foot+ disc many people seemed to report later.
>
>>
>
>It may be that the race is not always to the swift
> nor the battle to the strong - but that is the
>way to bet.
>
>Damon Runyon
He who needs to hide behind a false name, is doing it for a reason.
Neil.
* * * * * * * *
Neil Morris. /101101101 Virtual Bumper Stickers Inc 10110101010\
Dept of Physics. 1 1
Univ of Manchester 0 0
Schuster Labs. 1 Computer Programmers DO IT with BITS of BYTES 1
Brunswick St. 0 0
Manchester. 1 1
UK. \0101010110010110110010110101101011011110101011010/
G8KOQ
E-mail: ne...@adm1.ph.man.ac.uk
Roswell and Alien Autopsy Archive-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/
Roswell Photo Interpretation Team-> http://adm2.ph.man.ac.uk/ftw-pics/
* * * * * * * *
twi...@worldnet.att.net
>In <376cf3cc...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, twi...@worldnet.att.net writes:
>>David R Fritz <ta...@cape.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I have been going over some notes of the Roswell incident. There is one
>>>thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
>>>someone could answer this question.
>>>
>>>If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
>>>Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
>>>base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
>>>confenscated?
>>
>>Part of the debris was from a sounding balloon, quite
>>different than a normal pibald balloon that was used for
>>normal meteorological measurements. Pibalds were brightly
>>colored to make it easy to see them. Sounding balloons were
>>simply gray with no added pigments because they feared that
>>the pigments would weaken the balloons and make them not go
>>as high.
>>
>
>Mmmmm, But they were still good old fashioned Neoprene just like
>the other balloons Mack had found in the past according to his
>family and friends.
Nope. Further, they were a different color.
What did Mac's daughter say about the debris that she helped
her father pick up?
"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had
burst."
Mac claimed to the sheriff that he initially thought it was
a weather meter.
It is only later that it becomes something different.
>Though they (NYU) did start trying out those new Polythene balloons
>around this time though still flying them mixed with the Neoprene.
The number 4 only used neoprene.
They didn't get the new balloons until the next trip out to
Alamgordo. Apparently they also used four ML-307s on flight
4.
IIRC, July 3rd was the first non-neoprene launch. I can
look it up if you want me to.
>
>>The rest, the majority, of the debris was from an ML-307
>>radar target which no one at Roswell had ever seen. These
>>were used with sounding balloons for gun-laying and
>>high-altitude research projects.
>>
>
>All made out of good old fahioned standard aluminum foil backed
>paper, balsa wood and fishing twine, very ordinary materials, easily
>identifiable, not too uncommon in use,
Which is what Mac Brazel described:
]
I "came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up of
rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper, and sticks."
And:
"..might have been as large as a table top. The balloon
which held it up, if that is how it worked, must have been
about 12 feet long, he felt, measuring the distance by the
size of the room in which he sat. The rubber was smoky gray
in color and scattered over an area about 200 yards in
diameter. When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil,
paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long
and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle
about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all,
he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five
pounds."
Which is what Bessie Brazel Schreiber described. Even Jesse
Marcel Jr. doesn't describe anything really unusual.
Jesse A. Marcel, NM in affidavit dated May 6, 1991.
" ... There were three categories of debris: a thick, foil
like metallic gray substance; a brittle, brownish-black
plastic-like material, like Bakelite; and there were
fragments of what appeared to be I-beams. On the inner
surface of the I-beam, there appeared to be a type of
writing. This writing was a purple-violet hue, and it had an
embossed appearance. The figures were composed of curved,
geometric shapes. It had no resemblance to Russian, Japanese
or any other foreign language. It resembled hieroglyphics,
but it had no animal-like characters ......
Bessie Brazel Schreiber in affidavit dated September 22,
1993:
"..The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which
had burst. The pieces were small, the largest I remember
measuring about the same as the diameter of a basketball.
Most of it was a kind of double-sided material, foil-like on
one side and rubber-like on the other. Both sides were
grayish silver in color, the foil more silvery than the
rubber. Sticks, like kite sticks, were attached to some of
the pieces with a whitish tape. The tape was about two or
three inches wide and had flowerlike designs on it. The
'flowers' were faint, a variety of pastel colors, and
reminded me of Japanese paintings in which the flowers are
not all connected. I do not recall any other types of
material or markings, nor do I remember seeing gouges in the
ground or any other signs that anything may have hit the
ground hard. The foil-rubber material could not be tom like
ordinary aluminum foil can be tom..."
Gee, sounds just like a sounding balloon and an ML-307,
don't it?
>The ML307's even had the numbers
>stenciled on the reflectors so you knew what they were, an ML307!.
Wrong!
The ML-307 found in Ohio was apparently unique in that it
stated that it was an ML-307. The nomenclature plate as
described in the newspaper is clearly in error, however.
Further, the ML-307s used by NYU were the old non-standard
issue pre-production prototypes, not the standard issue
ones. They were the ones with the pink and purple flowers
on the tape. None of the others ever had that.
And why did Marcel and Cavitt attempt to make a kite out of
an alien spaceship then?
>Infact they were made out of the same stuff the other types of radar
>reflectors were made of, that I'm sure they HAD seen.
Why do you think that they had seen radar reflectors?
The evidence is all against it.
Newton had seen them in the Battle of Okinawa two years
previously being used for gun laying and hadn't seen them
since. He was a weather officer.
They were only used for high-altitude research and
gun-laying. Neither of which anyone at RAAF had been
involved with.
>
>>
>>>Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
>>>analisis?
>
>Exactly, not only Ramey but why didn't the combined forces of the 509th,
>Command, Intelligence and CIC sections identify foil backed paper, balsa
>wood and fishing twine.
They may have.
They described it as a flying disc, but that term didn't
mean alien spaceship in 1947. No one knew what these were.
Many people thought that they were secret weapons. Shades
of MOGUL!
In fact, the Ohio radar target was brought in as a possible
explanation of what the flying saucers were. And it had the
fact that it was made by case mfg on a nomenclature plate.
The Roswell one didn't have a nomenclature plate.
And the early reports out of Ramey's office said that it
appeared from the description to be a weather device but
that they hadn't seen it yet.
Mac Brazel told the sheriff that he thought it was a weather
meter when he found it and described tin foil.
>
>>
>>Why not? He did cancel the special flight (statement by
>>Irving Newton).
>>
>
>? Did he really ?
."..I walked into the General's office where this supposed
flying saucer was lying all over the floor. As soon as I saw
it, I giggled and asked if that was the flying saucer ... I
told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN target...
while I was examining the debris, Major Marcel was picking
up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me
that some notations on the sticks were alien writings. there
were figures on the sticks, lavender or pink in color,
appeared to be weather faded markings, with no rhyme or
reason. He did not convince me that these were alien
writings.... During the ensuing years I have been
interviewed by many authors, I have been quoted and
misquoted. The facts remain as indicated above. I was not
influenced during the original interview, nor today, to
provide anything but what I know to be true, that is, the
material I saw in General Ramey's office was the remains of
a balloon and a RAWIN target."
Remember, Newton was given permission and immunity to break
any secrecy pledges when he made that statement so they
could nothing to him for his testimony.
>Part of "URGENT" teletype from Dallas FBI office to Washington FBI HQ
>6.17pm CST 9th July 1947 :
>
>"Disc and balloon being transported to Wright Field by special plane for
>examination"...
>(Full transcript on web site below)
Being transported.
Ramey, immediately after Newton laughed and told him he had
a sounding balloon and a radar target, told them to cancel
the special flight.
>
>That's AFTER Newton said it was a balloon at 5.30pm CST and AFTER Ramey
>alledgedly said the special flight was off, think it was the Base IO who actually
>said it, on the phone to a news reporter, he said he had the debris in the
>office and thats where it was going to stay. Just about the time the FBI were
>sending the teletype to Washington Ramey was giving his live piece on WBAP
>radio, again saying it was all a big mistake and just a balloon.
But Ramey didn't give the info to the FBI. That was a
different major. We don't know if he had gotten the word
yet or not.
>
>>What did Col. Trakowski say about this?
."..Colonel Duffy called me on the telephone from Wright
Field and gave me a story about a fellow that had come in
from New Mexico, woke him up in the middle of the night or
some such thing with a handful of debris, and wanted him,
Colonel Duffy, to identify it. ... He just said 'it sure
looks like some of the stuff you've been launching at
Alamogordo and he described it, and I said 'yes, I think it
is.' Certainly Colonel Duffy knew enough about radar
targets, radiosondes, balloon-borne weather devices. He was
intimately familiar with all that apparatus."
They are talking about MOGUL and the debris from Roswell.
>>
>>>This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
>>>balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
>>>ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
>>>
>
>Not only could have BUT SHOULD HAVE..... thats assuming it was.
Nope. They described it as a flying disc but no one knew
what those were. Brazel told the sheriff that he initially
thought it was a weather meter. He described it as being
rubber, sticks, and tin foil.
Bessie said it looked like a balloon and that when she
helped her father pick it up he said it was just junk. That
was until the night of July 5th when he found that there
might be a $3000 reward if it was a flying disc.
Why did he let it alone from the 14th of June until early
July if it was so wonderful?
And where did it crash?
Which of the many crash sites do you happen to like?
>
>>
>>Alas, they had never seen a sounding balloon and a radar
>>target.
>>
>
>Proir to 1947 Maj Marcel had been on 2 extensive RADAR training
>courses I guess those didn't include radar reflectors and the tracking
>of same attached to balloons?.
Far from it.
I have his military records and the course didn't contain
anything like this. And forget extensive radar training
course, we are talking about short radar training course for
intelligence officers. Nothing to do with high-altitude
research projects nor with gun-laying.
>As for the balloons being launched at Alamogordo both the sounding
>balloons for the V2 test launches were known about and the guy's
>from NYU (MOGUL) were in almost daily contact with RAAF,
Nonsense. After the team came back to Alamogordo, after the
Roswell incident, they went over and briefed the officers of
RAAF.
Col. Blanchard, the first staff meeting after getting back
from leave, said that they had really shot themselves in the
foot with that flying disc nonsense, that it had come from
some project over at Alamgordo. This is from Haut in July
1990, prior to MOGUL's being found by Robert Todd.
(Obtainable on FUFOR's video tape)
Since it was from Haut and is prior to MOGUL, this must be
considered important evidence.
>shortly
>after the July incident
The launch of number 4 was in June 1947.
>their flight 5 tracked directly over the base
>together with it's chase plane and landed 34 miles east of the base.
How did RAAF track this?
Letter: SUBJECT: Request for Operation and Radar Equipment
at White Sands Proving Ground for AAF Training of 23 June
1947 indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
Letter: from Hq. Army Air Forces, Washington 25, D. C.
dated 10 Jul 1947 indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
Letter: SUBJECT: Request for Operation of Ground Radar
Equipment for Radar Countermeasures Training of 12 June 1947
indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
Letter: SUBJECT: Request for Operation of Ground Radar
Equipment for Radar Countermeasures Training of 3 JUN 1947
indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
>It was recovered and wasn't classified as a "flying disc".
It was recovered by the MOGUL people. It just might be
possible that they knew what they had launched.
Of course, after this, they went to the CAA and requested
permission to launch the balloons since they were getting
out of the Alamgordo area and crashing around Roswell.
The computer simulations of number 4 show it landing right
around the Foster Ranch. The computer simulations were
checked with flights 5 and 6 to make certain that they were
good. They predicted the crash sites for 5 and 6 very well.
The Foster Ranch is where Brazel was foreman.
>Due to the
>poor quality of the tracking obtained from the ML307's with the sets
>of the time very few of the "MOGUL" flights seem to have used the
>reflectors at all,
Yep. #4 was one of the very few.
>there is also some evidence from the NYU records
>that the "gulty" Flight 4 alledged to have caused the Incident might
>have actually been launched WITHOUT the ML307 reflector cluster.
Sorry, there is no such evidence. Randle has tried
commenting that since they didn't say the ML-307s were on
this one, maybe they weren't. That is all the evidence. A
cryptic comment in Crary's diary that is pure bunk
interpretation when you look at all of the other launches
and Crary's comments about them.
Crary was totally inconsistent in his descriptions of the
launch configuration.
>
>>Now, why did Marcel claim that the photo taken of him with
>>the debris was with the 'real' debris that he had brought up
>>from Roswell?
>>
>
>Because it most likly was. (see web site below for these photo's)
But the photo is of an ML-307(s) and a sounding balloon(s).
Friedman has gone on record about this. Prof. Moore has
gone on record about this. Bessie has gone on record that
the debris in the photos looks like the debris she helped
pick up.
>
>>That debris is of an ML-307 and a sounding balloon!
>>
>
>Nope... too many items in the pictures don't fit the specified materials
> in the original 1946 engineering drawings.
Wrong. Look at the Mensuration working paper dated
26-Jul-94.
That is an ML-307.
And remember that Marcel said it couldn't be bent or
creased.
That stuff in the photo with him is nothing but bends and
creases.
And what about all of the FOIA evidence that there was no
debris available to the AF?
Twining letter.
Schulgen letter.
Cabell letter.
McCoy letter.
McCoy presentation to the AFSAB.
Cabell top secret cover sheet memo.
Allen top secret memo.
Top secret Analysis.
Top Secret REPORT BY THE DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE, USAF
to the JOINT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE on UNIDENTIFIED
AERIAL OBJECTS
The EOTS, which we don't have but indicated that they didn't
have any debris.
There are a lot of FOIA documents that clearly show that the
AF didn't have any debris at all.
>
>>Additionally, the term flying saucer or flying disc didn't
>>mean alien spacecraft in 1947. Neither to the military nor
>>to the populace at large.
>>
>
>True, nobody had any idea what the "disc's" were at that time, look at all
>the fuss in surviving documents the military went to about gathering data
>on them, even requesting the aid of the FBI (The Hoover Memo).
Yep. That was about the hoaxed UFO in La.
>
>Another point, at that time the the concept of the size of the "discs" was
>somewhat different from what it is today, the size of the disc's at that time
>were thought of as much smaller 2 - 6 feet, rather than that of the "classic"
>30 foot+ disc many people seemed to report later.
No one really knew the size though. Arnold's first
sightings were large as were a number of others shortly
after his.
Kenneth Arnold, shortly after his infamous first sighting,
had a sighting of many of them that were this size.
>
>>
>>>
>>
>>It may be that the race is not always to the swift
>> nor the battle to the strong - but that is the
>>way to bet.
>>
>>Damon Runyon
>
>He who needs to hide behind a false name, is doing it for a reason.
My wife. She dislikes the death threats that some believers
have sent me.
twi...@worldnet.att.net
I was sort of hoping to see a reply to this. Wonder why I
didn't.
>In <376cf3cc...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, twi...@worldnet.att.net writes:
>>David R Fritz <ta...@cape.com> wrote:
>>
>>>I have been going over some notes of the Roswell incident. There is one
>>>thing that strikes me as kind of odd in this whole ordeal and maybe
>>>someone could answer this question.
>>>
>>>If the debreis at Roswell were from a weather balloon or even a Project
>>>Mogul as the Airforce claims. Then why couldn't anybody at the Roswell
>>>base identify it as a weather balloon when the debreis were
>>>confenscated?
>>
>>Part of the debris was from a sounding balloon, quite
>>different than a normal pibald balloon that was used for
>>normal meteorological measurements. Pibalds were brightly
>>colored to make it easy to see them. Sounding balloons were
>>simply gray with no added pigments because they feared that
>>the pigments would weaken the balloons and make them not go
>>as high.
>>
>
>Mmmmm, But they were still good old fashioned Neoprene just like
>the other balloons Mack had found in the past according to his
>family and friends.
Nope. Further, they were a different color.
What did Mac's daughter say about the debris that she helped
her father pick up?
"The debris looked like pieces of a large balloon which had
burst."
Mac claimed to the sheriff that he initially thought it was
a weather meter.
It is only later that it becomes something different.
>Though they (NYU) did start trying out those new Polythene balloons
>around this time though still flying them mixed with the Neoprene.
The number 4 only used neoprene.
They didn't get the new balloons until the next trip out to
Alamgordo. Apparently they also used four ML-307s on flight
4.
IIRC, July 3rd was the first non-neoprene launch. I can
look it up if you want me to.
>
>>The rest, the majority, of the debris was from an ML-307
>>radar target which no one at Roswell had ever seen. These
>>were used with sounding balloons for gun-laying and
>>high-altitude research projects.
>>
>
>All made out of good old fahioned standard aluminum foil backed
>paper, balsa wood and fishing twine, very ordinary materials, easily
>identifiable, not too uncommon in use,
Which is what Mac Brazel described:
>The ML307's even had the numbers
>stenciled on the reflectors so you knew what they were, an ML307!.
Wrong!
The ML-307 found in Ohio was apparently unique in that it
stated that it was an ML-307. The nomenclature plate as
described in the newspaper is clearly in error, however.
Further, the ML-307s used by NYU were the old non-standard
issue pre-production prototypes, not the standard issue
ones. They were the ones with the pink and purple flowers
on the tape. None of the others ever had that.
And why did Marcel and Cavitt attempt to make a kite out of
an alien spaceship then?
>Infact they were made out of the same stuff the other types of radar
>reflectors were made of, that I'm sure they HAD seen.
Why do you think that they had seen radar reflectors?
The evidence is all against it.
Newton had seen them in the Battle of Okinawa two years
previously being used for gun laying and hadn't seen them
since. He was a weather officer.
They were only used for high-altitude research and
gun-laying. Neither of which anyone at RAAF had been
involved with.
>
>>
>>>Why did Gen Ramey pack it all up and send it to Wright Patterson for
>>>analisis?
>
>Exactly, not only Ramey but why didn't the combined forces of the 509th,
>Command, Intelligence and CIC sections identify foil backed paper, balsa
>wood and fishing twine.
They may have.
They described it as a flying disc, but that term didn't
mean alien spaceship in 1947. No one knew what these were.
Many people thought that they were secret weapons. Shades
of MOGUL!
In fact, the Ohio radar target was brought in as a possible
explanation of what the flying saucers were. And it had the
fact that it was made by case mfg on a nomenclature plate.
The Roswell one didn't have a nomenclature plate.
And the early reports out of Ramey's office said that it
appeared from the description to be a weather device but
that they hadn't seen it yet.
Mac Brazel told the sheriff that he thought it was a weather
meter when he found it and described tin foil.
>
>>
>>Why not? He did cancel the special flight (statement by
>>Irving Newton).
>>
>
>? Did he really ?
."..I walked into the General's office where this supposed
flying saucer was lying all over the floor. As soon as I saw
it, I giggled and asked if that was the flying saucer ... I
told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN target...
while I was examining the debris, Major Marcel was picking
up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me
that some notations on the sticks were alien writings. there
were figures on the sticks, lavender or pink in color,
appeared to be weather faded markings, with no rhyme or
reason. He did not convince me that these were alien
writings.... During the ensuing years I have been
interviewed by many authors, I have been quoted and
misquoted. The facts remain as indicated above. I was not
influenced during the original interview, nor today, to
provide anything but what I know to be true, that is, the
material I saw in General Ramey's office was the remains of
a balloon and a RAWIN target."
Remember, Newton was given permission and immunity to break
any secrecy pledges when he made that statement so they
could nothing to him for his testimony.
>Part of "URGENT" teletype from Dallas FBI office to Washington FBI HQ
>6.17pm CST 9th July 1947 :
>
>"Disc and balloon being transported to Wright Field by special plane for
>examination"...
>(Full transcript on web site below)
Being transported.
Ramey, immediately after Newton laughed and told him he had
a sounding balloon and a radar target, told them to cancel
the special flight.
>
>That's AFTER Newton said it was a balloon at 5.30pm CST and AFTER Ramey
>alledgedly said the special flight was off, think it was the Base IO who actually
>said it, on the phone to a news reporter, he said he had the debris in the
>office and thats where it was going to stay. Just about the time the FBI were
>sending the teletype to Washington Ramey was giving his live piece on WBAP
>radio, again saying it was all a big mistake and just a balloon.
But Ramey didn't give the info to the FBI. That was a
different major. We don't know if he had gotten the word
yet or not.
>
>>What did Col. Trakowski say about this?
."..Colonel Duffy called me on the telephone from Wright
Field and gave me a story about a fellow that had come in
from New Mexico, woke him up in the middle of the night or
some such thing with a handful of debris, and wanted him,
Colonel Duffy, to identify it. ... He just said 'it sure
looks like some of the stuff you've been launching at
Alamogordo and he described it, and I said 'yes, I think it
is.' Certainly Colonel Duffy knew enough about radar
targets, radiosondes, balloon-borne weather devices. He was
intimately familiar with all that apparatus."
They are talking about MOGUL and the debris from Roswell.
>>
>>>This does not make any sence at all! (If it was a weather
>>>balloon)!! The weather balloon could have been identified as a weather
>>>ballon at the Roswell base and the whole matter could have been avoided.
>>>
>
>Not only could have BUT SHOULD HAVE..... thats assuming it was.
Nope. They described it as a flying disc but no one knew
what those were. Brazel told the sheriff that he initially
thought it was a weather meter. He described it as being
rubber, sticks, and tin foil.
Bessie said it looked like a balloon and that when she
helped her father pick it up he said it was just junk. That
was until the night of July 5th when he found that there
might be a $3000 reward if it was a flying disc.
Why did he let it alone from the 14th of June until early
July if it was so wonderful?
And where did it crash?
Which of the many crash sites do you happen to like?
>
>>
>>Alas, they had never seen a sounding balloon and a radar
>>target.
>>
>
>Proir to 1947 Maj Marcel had been on 2 extensive RADAR training
>courses I guess those didn't include radar reflectors and the tracking
>of same attached to balloons?.
Far from it.
I have his military records and the course didn't contain
anything like this. And forget extensive radar training
course, we are talking about short radar training course for
intelligence officers. Nothing to do with high-altitude
research projects nor with gun-laying.
>As for the balloons being launched at Alamogordo both the sounding
>balloons for the V2 test launches were known about and the guy's
>from NYU (MOGUL) were in almost daily contact with RAAF,
Nonsense. After the team came back to Alamogordo, after the
Roswell incident, they went over and briefed the officers of
RAAF.
Col. Blanchard, the first staff meeting after getting back
from leave, said that they had really shot themselves in the
foot with that flying disc nonsense, that it had come from
some project over at Alamgordo. This is from Haut in July
1990, prior to MOGUL's being found by Robert Todd.
(Obtainable on FUFOR's video tape)
Since it was from Haut and is prior to MOGUL, this must be
considered important evidence.
>shortly
>after the July incident
The launch of number 4 was in June 1947.
>their flight 5 tracked directly over the base
>together with it's chase plane and landed 34 miles east of the base.
How did RAAF track this?
Letter: SUBJECT: Request for Operation and Radar Equipment
at White Sands Proving Ground for AAF Training of 23 June
1947 indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
Letter: from Hq. Army Air Forces, Washington 25, D. C.
dated 10 Jul 1947 indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
Letter: SUBJECT: Request for Operation of Ground Radar
Equipment for Radar Countermeasures Training of 12 June 1947
indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
Letter: SUBJECT: Request for Operation of Ground Radar
Equipment for Radar Countermeasures Training of 3 JUN 1947
indicates that RAAF couldn't track this.
>It was recovered and wasn't classified as a "flying disc".
It was recovered by the MOGUL people. It just might be
possible that they knew what they had launched.
Of course, after this, they went to the CAA and requested
permission to launch the balloons since they were getting
out of the Alamgordo area and crashing around Roswell.
The computer simulations of number 4 show it landing right
around the Foster Ranch. The computer simulations were
checked with flights 5 and 6 to make certain that they were
good. They predicted the crash sites for 5 and 6 very well.
The Foster Ranch is where Brazel was foreman.
>Due to the
>poor quality of the tracking obtained from the ML307's with the sets
>of the time very few of the "MOGUL" flights seem to have used the
>reflectors at all,
Yep. #4 was one of the very few.
>there is also some evidence from the NYU records
>that the "gulty" Flight 4 alledged to have caused the Incident might
>have actually been launched WITHOUT the ML307 reflector cluster.
Sorry, there is no such evidence. Randle has tried
commenting that since they didn't say the ML-307s were on
this one, maybe they weren't. That is all the evidence. A
cryptic comment in Crary's diary that is pure bunk
interpretation when you look at all of the other launches
and Crary's comments about them.
Crary was totally inconsistent in his descriptions of the
launch configuration.
>
>>Now, why did Marcel claim that the photo taken of him with
>>the debris was with the 'real' debris that he had brought up
>>from Roswell?
>>
>
>Because it most likly was. (see web site below for these photo's)
But the photo is of an ML-307(s) and a sounding balloon(s).
Friedman has gone on record about this. Prof. Moore has
gone on record about this. Bessie has gone on record that
the debris in the photos looks like the debris she helped
pick up.
>
>>That debris is of an ML-307 and a sounding balloon!
>>
>
>Nope... too many items in the pictures don't fit the specified materials
> in the original 1946 engineering drawings.
Wrong. Look at the Mensuration working paper dated
26-Jul-94.
That is an ML-307.
And remember that Marcel said it couldn't be bent or
creased.
That stuff in the photo with him is nothing but bends and
creases.
And what about all of the FOIA evidence that there was no
debris available to the AF?
Twining letter.
Schulgen letter.
Cabell letter.
McCoy letter.
McCoy presentation to the AFSAB.
Cabell top secret cover sheet memo.
Allen top secret memo.
Top secret Analysis.
Top Secret REPORT BY THE DIRECTOR OF INTELLIGENCE, USAF
to the JOINT INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE on UNIDENTIFIED
AERIAL OBJECTS
The EOTS, which we don't have but indicated that they didn't
have any debris.
There are a lot of FOIA documents that clearly show that the
AF didn't have any debris at all.
>
>>Additionally, the term flying saucer or flying disc didn't
>>mean alien spacecraft in 1947. Neither to the military nor
>>to the populace at large.
>>
>
>True, nobody had any idea what the "disc's" were at that time, look at all
>the fuss in surviving documents the military went to about gathering data
>on them, even requesting the aid of the FBI (The Hoover Memo).
Yep. That was about the hoaxed UFO in La.
>
>Another point, at that time the the concept of the size of the "discs" was
>somewhat different from what it is today, the size of the disc's at that time
>were thought of as much smaller 2 - 6 feet, rather than that of the "classic"
>30 foot+ disc many people seemed to report later.
No one really knew the size though. Arnold's first
sightings were large as were a number of others shortly
after his.
Kenneth Arnold, shortly after his infamous first sighting,
had a sighting of many of them that were this size.
>
>>
>>>
>>
>>It may be that the race is not always to the swift
>> nor the battle to the strong - but that is the
>>way to bet.
>>
>>Damon Runyon
>
>He who needs to hide behind a false name, is doing it for a reason.
My wife. She dislikes the death threats that some believers
have sent me.
(aav and ss added)
Scott A. Munro
>Which is what Bessie Brazel Schreiber described. Even Jesse
>Marcel Jr. doesn't describe anything really unusual.
This is the real point about Roswell. Even if we discount the passage
of decades and the later definition of "flying saucer" as "alien
spaceship" and accept everything the Foster Ranch debris witnesses say
as 100% accurate, what they saw still doesn't sound like a spaceship;
it doesn't even sound all that strange. It's a high-reliability,
low-strangeness event.
That's why the Roswell Spaceship Crash proponents had to go looking
for "other crash sites." Of course, no first-hand "crashed spaceship"
stories appear in the first Roswell book (*The Roswell Incident*,
1980), but by the time a decade or so had passed, "witnesses" had
pointed out so many crash sites you couldn't keep track of them all.
Unfortunately, these stories were the same old low-reliability "saucer
crash" stories that ufologists used to reject for lack of evidence.
But this time, they could paste the high reliability of the Foster
Ranch debris to the high strangeness of the saucer crash stories, and
pretend that they had a "high-reliability, high-strangeness" event.
twi...@worldnet.att.net
>On Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:24:56 GMT, twi...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>
>>Which is what Bessie Brazel Schreiber described. Even Jesse
>>Marcel Jr. doesn't describe anything really unusual.
>
>This is the real point about Roswell. Even if we discount the passage
>of decades and the later definition of "flying saucer" as "alien
>spaceship" and accept everything the Foster Ranch debris witnesses say
>as 100% accurate, what they saw still doesn't sound like a spaceship;
>it doesn't even sound all that strange. It's a high-reliability,
>low-strangeness event.
And when we accept the claim of Jesse Marcel that the
material that couldn't be dented with a sledge hammer was
the same dented, bent, folded, mutilated, stapled, and
creased material in the photo with him ....
>
>That's why the Roswell Spaceship Crash proponents had to go looking
>for "other crash sites."
Have you heard where Donald Schmitt's new and improved
crash site is?
>Of course, no first-hand "crashed spaceship"
>stories appear in the first Roswell book (*The Roswell Incident*,
>1980), but by the time a decade or so had passed, "witnesses" had
>pointed out so many crash sites you couldn't keep track of them all.
And had changed their stories. Loretta Proctor in The
Roswell Incident didn't see or handle the material. In her
affidavit dated May 5, 1991, she did see and handle the
material.
>
>Unfortunately, these stories were the same old low-reliability "saucer
>crash" stories that ufologists used to reject for lack of evidence.
But they don't do so anymore!
>But this time, they could paste the high reliability of the Foster
>Ranch debris to the high strangeness of the saucer crash stories, and
>pretend that they had a "high-reliability, high-strangeness" event.
>
>-----
>Scott A. Munro
>Paint Shop Pro 5 tutorials and my digital photos
>http://www.nextdim.com/users/smunro/
It may be that the race is not always to the swift