In article <afgdmuo59ta4rjvgg99gihncs5ifrr5
...@4ax.com>, Dick wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:49:10 +0000 (UTC), excels
...@usexpress.net
> (Excelsior) wrote:
>>On Thu, 22 Aug 2002 18:14:55 +0000 (UTC), Dick <d...@christophers.net>
>>wrote:
>>>On Wed, 21 Aug 2002 17:40:51 +0000 (UTC), "howard hershey"
>>><hersh...@indiana.edu> wrote:
>>>>> It appears to me that we agree, criticism carries no burden to present
>>>>> a superior alternative.
>>>>Science demands that a testable alternative be presented and that material
>>>>evidence be presented that supports it. ID does neither.
>>>Cold Fusion critics offered no counter proposal, but it was obvious
>>>they were right to question the results. Was that not science in
>>>action?
>>There was nothing to make a counter proposal to. They claimed a
U/>phenomenon. The claim was unfounded.
>>A counter proposal to a non-argument?
> Excelsior, I replied to your question about Darwin and Speciation in
> an earlier post and said I thought that Darwin specifically denied
> speciation. I found a quote:
> "Not one change of species into another is on record . . we cannot
> prove that a single species has been changed."
> Charles Darwin, My Life and Letters.
Ah, quote mining. You really should try going to the original
sources to see what people really say, not what people say that
they say. You could begin by entering keywords from this quote
into your favorite search engine. You'll find reference after
reference to various creationist websites, all eagerly quoting the
same quote, over and over and over.
There is a small problem though.
Darwin never wrote a book called "My Life and Letters".
_The Life and Letters of Charles Darwin_, and _More Letters of
Charles Darwin_ (two volumes each) were published in 1887 and 1902
respectively. (Charles Darwin died in 1882.) They were assembled
by his son Francis and A. C. Seward. Since they are of such wide
interest, you can download all four volumes from Project Gutenberg.
I just did. One advantage of having electronic copies is that it
is rather trivial to use search software to find quotes.
Having had no luck with finding the entire quote, I just searched
for a couple of word pairs. Of the first half, I was unable to
find any trace. No pair of significant adjacent words from the
first have seem to be found in any of the four volumes. You are
free to try your own hand at it if you like. You'll find the second
half (inaccurately) quoted in volume 2 of "Life and Letters of
Charles Darwin", in a letter to G. Bentham, May 22, 1863.
I'll quote the entirety of the letter, and put the quoted material
in all caps.
CHARLES DARWIN TO G. BENTHAM.
Down, May 22 [1863].
My dear Bentham,
I am much obliged for your kind and interesting letter. I
have no fear of anything that a man like you will say
annoying me in the very least degree. On the other hand,
any approval from one whose judgment and knowledge I have
for many years so sincerely respected, will gratify me much.
The objection which you well put, of certain forms remaining
unaltered through long time and space, is no doubt formidable
in appearance, and to a certain extent in reality according
to my judgment. But does not the difficulty rest much on
our silently assuming that we know more than we do? I have
literally found nothing so difficult as to try and always
remember our ignorance. I am never weary, when walking in
any new adjoining district or country, of reflecting how
absolutely ignorant we are why certain old plants are not
there present, and other new ones are, and others in different
proportions. If we once fully feel this, then in judging
the theory of Natural Selection, which implies that a form
will remain unaltered unless some alteration be to its
benefit, is it so very wonderful that some forms should
change much slower and much less, and some few should have
changed not at all under conditions which to us (who really
know nothing what are the important conditions) seem very
different. Certainly a priori we might have anticipated
that all the plants anciently introduced into Australia
would have undergone some modification; but the fact that
they have not been modified does not seem to me a difficulty
of weight enough to shake a belief grounded on other
arguments. I have expressed myself miserably, but I am far
from well to-day.
I am very glad that you are going to allude to Pasteur; I
was struck with infinite admiration at his work. With
cordial thanks, believe me, dear Bentham,
Yours very sincerely,
CH. DARWIN.
P.S.--In fact, the belief in Natural Selection must at
present be grounded entirely on general considerations.
(1) On its being a vera causa, from the struggle for
existence; and the certain geological fact that species do
somehow change. (2) From the analogy of change under
domestication by man's selection. (3) And chiefly from
this view connecting under an intelligible point of view a
host of facts. When we descend to details, we can prove
that no one species has changed [i.e. WE CANNOT PROVE THAT <= here
A SINGLE SPECIES HAS CHANGED]; nor can we prove that the
supposed changes are beneficial, which is the groundwork
of the theory. Nor can we explain why some species have
changed and others have not. The latter case seems to me
hardly more difficult to understand precisely and in detail
than the former case of supposed change. Bronn may ask in
vain, the old creationist school and the new school, why
one mouse has longer ears than another mouse, and one plant
more pointed leaves than another plant.
[ note: the phrasing around the quoted section is confusing, whether this
is an error in transcription by the Project Gutenberg version or not, I
cannot tell. Anyone have a real copy lying around? ]
Darwin here admitted that he had not observed a single speciation event.
Indeed, he had no way of determining that the varieties and/or species
of an animal were in any way related via common descent. He believed
it merely on the strength of the connection of "a host of facts" under
"an intelligible point".
Of course now we actually have observed speciation, both in the wild and
in the laboratory, so modern scientists have no lack of direct evidence
that Darwin's insights were keen.
I found another interesting quotation while searching for "into another",
quoted below...
I am actually weary of telling people that I do not pretend
to adduce direct evidence of one species changing into
another, but that I believe that this view in the main is
correct, because so many phenomena can be thus grouped
together and explained. But it is generally of no use; I
cannot make persons see this. I generally throw in their
teeth the universally admitted theory of the undulation of
light,--neither the undulation nor the very existence of
ether being proved, yet admitted because the view explains
so much.
I find this interesting in two ways: because it freely admits that Darwin
believed (although had no direct evidence for) the transmutation of species
into another, and because of course it refers to the wave theory of light
and the ether, whose existence was actually _disproved_ in 1879 by the m
Michelson Morley experiments (the letter above was written in 1861).
Mark