Should Akids bioCulture Be taught to them?
PLAYROY1
adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than their
afamily should be taught their biological heritage. I've heard some American
folk will go to great lengths to instill the culture of their foriegn born
children's biobeginnings in them. Things like celebrating the holidays of the
countries they were born in or dressing in traditional clothing etc... Do
domestically adopted kids also follow the religions and customs of their
biological beginnings as well? Given the recent events that seem to have made
afro-italian-polish-irish-islamic-chinese-japanese-german-english-french-r
ussian-guatemalan-vietnamese- Americans - just plain Americans, does that
change anyone's mind about the importance of the countries or backgrounds their
children may have come from as opposed to where they live now as citizens of
The United States of America?
Sassy570
>adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than
>their
>afamily should be taught their biological heritage.
I feel it is very important to share and teach with your achildren their
biological heritage.
I am raising a child that is going to grow up to be a black man in america.
While I dont feel I can ever really know what that entails
I can try to give him the tools and the knowledge of his heritage. We do all of
the things mentioned in your post as well and make sure he has lots of real
life people of his race to talk to and admire. We have also gone about learning
a bit more of our heritage ( italian and polish). So we all love lasagna and
pierogies now. . I just think it is important, and even if some dont think it
is essential it couldnt hurt either so why not.
Victoria Lawson
>I'd like to hear others opinions on whether or not or to what extent a child
>adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than their
>afamily should be taught their biological heritage.
[snip]
Why not? I was born to and raised by my natural parents, and we did
all the Italian and Irish stuff we could, just because. It certainly
enriched our lives.
Vicki
helicon
"PLAYROY1" <play...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011005121148...@mb-md.aol.com...
Even the Native Americans are not just "plain Americans" - they are from
different tribal backgrounds and heritage, but they are very much
"American".
Is it not the most wonderful thing to be American AND whatever else is in
your background? Irish Americans are often more traditionally Irish in
certain ways than those back in Ireland, but they are also most definitely
very American.
I think it is absolutely vital for an internationally adopted child to be
brought up with access to his/her cultural heritage. Support groups for
whatever country the child is adopted from can be a great source of contact
and information for the parents and the children.
The Thais for example understand this very well, and the Thai adoption
authorities organise The Native Land Visit for families with adopted Thai
children to return there periodically in order to keep up the link between
the children and their land of birth.
Children should be able to feel proud about themselves and knowing where
they have come from is part of that. It doesn't take anything away from what
other nationality they have acquired through adoption.
Helen
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/01
J
<victori...@verizon.NOSPAM.net> writes:
Piggybacking on Vicki's post:
Yes, an internationally adopted child should be taught at least something about
the country and culture into which he was born. It's part and parcel of
establishing a sense of personal history, of being a part of a continuing
process, as opposed to having been plucked like a doll from a cabbage patch.
How much depends on the child and his interest level once he reaches a certain
age. You might want to watch for the documentary "First Person Plural" on PBS,
for a sense of what some Korean international adoptees feel on the subject.
My son takes a good deal of pride in where he was born, in being able to tell
people about it, and in telling of the friends and family he has their (birth
and foster). He's unusual in that he has met all of his immediate birth
family, other than his father. This enhances his interest in the subject and
the language, which he speaks well enough to have acted as our translator for
part of our visit this year.
J.
Adam
add the two penny worth.
As an adoptee of (recently discovered) Welsh heritage in England, it
fascinates me that I have maintained a fascination with Welsh identity since
early childhood (through myth, story, history and political identity)
despite the fact I did not know my origins. Having recently been connected
with said origins simply affirms to me that heritage and culture are CRUCIAL
to identity.
Adam
(non-american bastards are important too)
"PLAYROY1" <play...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011005121148...@mb-md.aol.com...
helicon
"Adam" <adam...@sargant.net> wrote in message
news:9plgmi$j1ibm$1...@ID-75919.news.dfncis.de...
> Given that this ng extends beyond the boundaries of America, I would like
to
> add the two penny worth.
>
> As an adoptee of (recently discovered) Welsh heritage in England, it
> fascinates me that I have maintained a fascination with Welsh identity
since
> early childhood (through myth, story, history and political identity)
> despite the fact I did not know my origins. Having recently been connected
> with said origins simply affirms to me that heritage and culture are
CRUCIAL
> to identity.
I agree. We Celts *know* these things - it's bred in the bone! ;-)
Helen
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 26/09/01
Roberta
From: "Adam" adam...@sargant.net
Date: Fri, Oct 5, 2001 7:44 PM
Message-id: <9plgmi$j1ibm$1...@ID-75919.news.dfncis.de>
My daughter is Chinese-American and I have been fortunate to have found
childcare and school settings where she spends time with other
Chinese-Americans--children and adults. I think it's very healthy for her.
You might have seen her school in Chinatown earlier this week when Pres. Bush
visited. She's in Kindergarten there.
The president did not visit her class, which may be a good thing since as soon
as she found out he was coming, she reminded me that we didn't vote for him!
Roberta
mom to Juliette, 5.5, adopted 2/4/98 from China
helicon
"Roberta" <ro...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20011005195313...@mb-fl.aol.com...
<snip>
>
> My daughter is Chinese-American and I have been fortunate to have found
> childcare and school settings where she spends time with other
> Chinese-Americans--children and adults. I think it's very healthy for her.
>
> You might have seen her school in Chinatown earlier this week when Pres.
Bush
> visited. She's in Kindergarten there.
>
> The president did not visit her class, which may be a good thing since as
soon
> as she found out he was coming, she reminded me that we didn't vote for
him!
What is it they say? Out of the mouths of babes and lambs! (They'd *hang*
you! <s>)
Helen
>
>
> Roberta
> mom to Juliette, 5.5, adopted 2/4/98 from China
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/01
Michelle
I think that any knowledge you can give a kid about anything is the most
important gift you can give them.
Michelle
Michelle
to
> add the two penny worth.
>
> As an adoptee of (recently discovered) Welsh heritage in England, it
> fascinates me that I have maintained a fascination with Welsh identity
since
> early childhood (through myth, story, history and political identity)
> despite the fact I did not know my origins. Having recently been connected
> with said origins simply affirms to me that heritage and culture are
CRUCIAL
> to identity.
>
> Adam
> (non-american bastards are important too)
Woo-hoo! Let's hear it for adoptees of Welsh descent! I found out right
before I went there (trip had already been planned long in advance). Of
course, the disadvantage to that is that every single person in the pubs
wanted to give me the "true meaning of being Welsh" in five hundred words or
more. Awfully friendly people, and (at least when drinking) very fond
indeed of the movie "Zulu." LOL!
Michelle
Michelle
"helicon" <hel...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:OFrv7.4626$w5.3...@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "Adam" <adam...@sargant.net> wrote in message
> news:9plgmi$j1ibm$1...@ID-75919.news.dfncis.de...
> > Given that this ng extends beyond the boundaries of America, I would
like
> to
> > add the two penny worth.
> >
> > As an adoptee of (recently discovered) Welsh heritage in England, it
> > fascinates me that I have maintained a fascination with Welsh identity
> since
> > early childhood (through myth, story, history and political identity)
> > despite the fact I did not know my origins. Having recently been
connected
> > with said origins simply affirms to me that heritage and culture are
> CRUCIAL
> > to identity.
>
> I agree. We Celts *know* these things - it's bred in the bone! ;-)
>
> Helen
Good thing, too! If we had to depend on an original birth certificate, we'd
still be waiting to find out whether it's even important at all! LOL!
Michelle
Marley Greiner
"Michelle" <celtic...@earthH20link.net> wrote in message
news:Obuv7.5213$3i3.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
I'm a good part Welsh as well, on my daddy's side. Rys.
Marley
Lisa F. Wilson-Gee
> I'd like to hear others opinions on whether or not or to what extent a child
> adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than their
> afamily should be taught their biological heritage.
IMO, (for what it's worth I am, after all, just an adoptee) I think
that both the adoptive and the biological heritages should be
taught/honored/respected to the extent that the child shows an
interest. Speaking only for myself I can tell you that I take great
pride in my heritage from both my adoptive side (Italian and English)
and my biological side (to the best of my knowledge 100% Irish).
>I've heard some American
> folk will go to great lengths to instill the culture of their foriegn born
> children's biobeginnings in them. Things like celebrating the holidays of the
> countries they were born in or dressing in traditional clothing etc... Do
> domestically adopted kids also follow the religions and customs of their
> biological beginnings as well?
My experiences resulted in a mixture of both. For example, although I
am not religious by any means, on Christmas Eve I carry on the
tradition that my Nona (adoptive) taught me and have the feast of the
seven fishes, and when my husband and I married I added a sprig of
shamrock to both my flowers and my husband's boutonniere
(biological/irish for luck and hard as hades to get in NJ in
December!).
> Given the recent events that seem to have made
> afro-italian-polish-irish-islamic-chinese-japanese-german-english-french-r
> ussian-guatemalan-vietnamese- Americans - just plain Americans, does that
> change anyone's mind about the importance of the countries or backgrounds their
> children may have come from as opposed to where they live now as citizens of
> The United States of America?
I can't speak for anyone else, but although I am proud to be an
American (we're far from perfect, but this is my home) I also take
great pride in my heritage (both bio and adoptive). It's a part of
whom I am...my DH jokes that I look like your "typical" Irishman (red
hair, grey eyes, freckles that refuse to fade and so fair-skinned I
glow in the dark), cook like an Italian (you'll never go hungry in my
home) and have the sense of humour of an Englishman (very dry).
What has happened hasn't changed how I feel about my heritage one
iota. I still plan on one day seeing the village in Italy where my
Maternal (adoptive) grandparents are from (Gasperina, Calabria) the
English Seacoast town my Paternal (adoptive) grandparents are from
(Illfracombe) and Ireland draws me in a way I have never been able to
explain (even before I knew I was Irish). Although I've never been to
any of these places they will always be a part of who I am.
Lisa F. Wilson-Gee
Jack Bernhard
"Michelle" <celtic...@earthH20link.net> wrote in message
<snip Roy's delusions about becoming a modern Nathan Hale by denying his
children's cultural background>
> >
>
> I think that any knowledge you can give a kid about anything is the most
> important gift you can give them.
>
> Michelle
Ayup.
Julia
We do not "live now as citizens of The United States of America". My
family celebrates Korean, India, Aussie and Chinese cultural events
but the 4th of July passes unacknowledged.
Recent events haven't changed my mind at all - if anything, they have
reinforced my desire for my children to see themselves primarily as
citizens of the world.
Julia
helicon
"Michelle" <celtic...@earthH20link.net> wrote in message
>
> "Adam" <adam...@sargant.net> wrote in message
> news:9plgmi$j1ibm$1...@ID-75919.news.dfncis.de...
> > Given that this ng extends beyond the boundaries of America, I would
like
> to
> > add the two penny worth.
> >
> > As an adoptee of (recently discovered) Welsh heritage in England, it
> > fascinates me that I have maintained a fascination with Welsh identity
> since
> > early childhood (through myth, story, history and political identity)
> > despite the fact I did not know my origins. Having recently been
connected
> > with said origins simply affirms to me that heritage and culture are
> CRUCIAL
> > to identity.
> >
> > Adam
> > (non-american bastards are important too)
>
> Woo-hoo! Let's hear it for adoptees of Welsh descent! I found out right
> before I went there (trip had already been planned long in advance). Of
> course, the disadvantage to that is that every single person in the pubs
> wanted to give me the "true meaning of being Welsh" in five hundred words
or
> more. Awfully friendly people, and (at least when drinking) very fond
> indeed of the movie "Zulu." LOL!
I'm sure you said yak-ee-dah (phonetic!) many times!
Helen
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/01
helicon
"Lisa F. Wilson-Gee" <lisa...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:daa58663.01100...@posting.google.com...
You 'sound' very familiar - do I know you? BG
cook like an Italian (you'll never go hungry in my
> home)
Yum yum.
and have the sense of humour of an Englishman (very dry).
>
> What has happened hasn't changed how I feel about my heritage one
> iota. I still plan on one day seeing the village in Italy where my
> Maternal (adoptive) grandparents are from (Gasperina, Calabria) the
> English Seacoast town my Paternal (adoptive) grandparents are from
> (Illfracombe) and Ireland draws me in a way I have never been able to
> explain (even before I knew I was Irish).
Let me know when you make your travel plans for Ireland!
Helen
Although I've never been to
> any of these places they will always be a part of who I am.
>
> Lisa F. Wilson-Gee
helicon
"Don" <donne...@snowball.edu> wrote in message
news:trt73om...@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <3bbe99a4...@news.interact.net.au>,
> ju...@NOSPAM.interact.net.au (Julia) wrote:
>
> > Recent events haven't changed my mind at all - if anything, they have
> > reinforced my desire for my children to see themselves primarily as
> > citizens of the world.
>
> one to be truly ignorant of reality.
Do you mean *Julia* is "truly ignorant of reality"?????
Uh, I don't *think* so, Don - far from it. I reckon Julia has it in the
bag - she practices what she preaches, which (seems to me) to be based on a
profound respect for all.
If there were more like her, and less of the jingoistic, sabre-rattling
types the world would be a far safer, healthier and more interesting place
to be.
Helen
>
> - Don
Adam
Oh yes, they all have a definition of welshness
<g>
Adam
"Michelle" <celtic...@earthH20link.net> wrote in message
news:Obuv7.5213$3i3.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
Anton Sweeney
to
> add the two penny worth.
> despite the fact I did not know my origins. Having recently been connected
> with said origins simply affirms to me that heritage and culture are
CRUCIAL
> to identity.
>
> Adam
> (non-american bastards are important too)
Agree totally with what you said, Adam. What about my case, though? I'm
not Irish-American, I'm American-Irish! Conceived in the States by an
American dad and Irish 'mam', and born and adopted in Ireland. Which part
of American culture should I embrace - McDonalds, or Burger King, do you
think?
Anton
(semi-American bastard!)
Michelle
"Anton Sweeney" <not@a_real_address_on.Usenet> wrote in message
news:0uBv7.2860$j22....@news.iol.ie...
Personally, I'd go for McDonalds for shakes, sundaes, and fries; Burger King
for chicken, hamburgers, and fish. But the ultimate, IMO, is Jack in the
Box. : )
Michelle
helicon
"Anton Sweeney" <not@a_real_address_on.Usenet> wrote in message
news:0uBv7.2860$j22....@news.iol.ie...
>
Burger King - their chips (french fries) are better - or so I've been told.
Helen
>
> Anton
> (semi-American bastard!)
Linda Fortney
A child adoptd from overseas should be exposed to as much of their native
culture as humanly possible. Why? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY!
My daughter will probably never know her b-pars. But, she knows she is
Chinese American. Roy, if you plan to ignore your kids' Russian heritage,
you are doing them a horrible disservice.
When kids reach adolescence, they have to figure out who they
are. Lacking contact with b-pars, it is imperative that they have ongoing
relationships with their birth-culture.
I strongly advise that you take your kids to Russian language school,
celebrate Russian holidays and above all, make contact with the
Russian-Amrican population. Try to find Russian baby sitters for your
kids. Find a group f other parents who adopted from Russia and
participate in their activities.
Of course, you could bury your head in the sand like Don and claim that
the US is the only country that matters. Not a good idea.
Gotta go. We're taking Elizabeth to the Autumn Moon celebration (Chinse
Thanksgiving, roughly) at a nearby state university this afternoon.
Linda
PS Why deprive yourself (let alone your kids) of learning about another
country?
Adam
are microwaved so don't get contaminated with animal fats :-)
"helicon" <hel...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:jVCv7.4718$w5.3...@news.indigo.ie...
Anton Sweeney
> If you adopt a Palestinian kid, make sure he grows up to hate Jews and
> knows how to be come a suicide bomber.
>
> - Don
If you adopt one of Don's kids, make sure he grows up to hate EVERYBODY!
Anton
fiend
<adam...@sargant.net> wrote:
>Definately Burger King- the fries are better and their vegitarian burgers
>are microwaved so don't get contaminated with animal fats :-)
Yeah, better microwaved into slimy flaccidity than contaminated with animal
fats. Feh. If you're that scrupulous, eat at home.
whoever
-------------------
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands develop shaking,
The shaking becomes a warning;
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
Adam
"fiend" <rev...@aol.compromise> wrote in message
news:20011006140713...@nso-fi.aol.com...
PLAYROY1
Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001 3:59 AM
Message-id: <0uBv7.2860$j22....@news.iol.ie>
ROY: Excellent question, Anton. But seriously, should you embrace the laid
back lifestyle of Los Angeles or the fast paced lifestyle of New York? OR the
hard work ethic of the mid-west? Having been to Russia, France and England, my
observations of culture demonstrated that the difference in culture between
Moscow and New York was little different in degree than Los Angeles to Dallas.
>>
PLAYROY1
Date: Fri, Oct 5, 2001 10:29 PM
Message-id: <bFwv7.9153$on2.286...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>
"Michelle" <celtic...@earthH20link.net> wrote in message
news:z9uv7.5208$3i3.6...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "PLAYROY1" <play...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20011005121148...@mb-md.aol.com...
<snip Roy's delusions about becoming a modern Nathan Hale by denying his
children's cultural background>
> >
ROY: Jackass is fantasizing again. Where did you come up with this one? Just
because I'm asking about culture you assume the worst? haha
PLAYROY1
reinforced my desire for my children to see themselves primarily as
citizens of the world.
Julia
>>
ROY: Glad to hear you say that as that has been my position for years. Did
you see the John Lennon special? They showed John speaking about a world with
no borders, no countries or religion. He said, imagine us all looking at
Buddah, Allah, Jesus etc. as equal? One world, "imagine nothing to kill or die
for?" Borders only keep us separate and perpetuate war and hatred. "I guess
you could say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." :0)
PLAYROY1
Date: Fri, Oct 5, 2001 10:54 PM
Message-id: <trt73om...@corp.supernews.com>
In article <3bbe99a4...@news.interact.net.au>,
ju...@NOSPAM.interact.net.au (Julia) wrote:
> Recent events haven't changed my mind at all - if anything, they have
> reinforced my desire for my children to see themselves primarily as
> citizens of the world.
Which world? Certainly not Planet Earth where such an attitude reveals
one to be truly ignorant of reality.
- Don
ROY: Actually an attitude like yours, Don, which reveals nothing but a
pessimistic view of the future is the truly ignorant pov. If we don't dream of
a better world what chance do we have of it ever happening? As Richard Bach
says, "Argue for your limitations and sure enough they are yours."
>>
Sue Tretter
PLAYROY1 wrote:
> I'd like to hear others opinions on whether or not or to what extent a child
> adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than their
> afamily should be taught their biological heritage.
Why? Seriously Roy, what's your purpose? And would you really "like to hear
opinions" that contradict your oft-stated views? (If you've truly changed in the
weeks I've been off-line, my apologies.)
For those who are interested in adoptive parents who do value the dual heritages of
their adoptive children, WUHU DIARY: ON TAKING MY ADOPTED DAUGHTER BACK TO HER
HOMETOWN IN CHINA, by Emily Prager, is
imo a wonderful book, worthwhile for every loving adoptive parent.
To give you a taste of the author's mindset, here's a snippet from the Epilogue.
Please note that this is a Dear Birthmother letter to a Chinese birthmother who
will never have a chance to read the letter, let alone know that it was written.
And of course the author realizes that as she begins writing ...
"Dear Madam,
The adoption agency has asked me to write to you, but I don't know how. I don't
know what to say to a woman whose greatest tragedy is my good fortune. That you
should have your daughter forced from your arms by a government who I then must pay
to envelop her in mine is the stuff of which I have fought against my entire
career. That I should end up tacitly supporting this policy is my shame and, yet,
my fate."
"... As your daughter becomes my daughter, your ancestors become my ancestors, and
mine become yours. It is an interesting thing and very modern. Please understand
that I respect this sacred trust, and should we meet in the afterlife, we would
embrace as one family, for that's what we will soon be. I shall think of you as
the years unfold as I'm sure you will think of me. My heart is with you."
The above quoted material is but 2/7ths of the original Dear Birth Mother note,
as printed in the book.
> I've heard some American
> folk will go to great lengths to instill the culture of their foriegn born
> children's biobeginnings in them.
Yes, this woman took her not-quite-five-year-old daughter back to the city of
her birth, not for a few days or a week, but for two months, and lived not with
Anglos but with the Chinese, took her daughter to a Chinese school where she
(the author) was the only non-Chinese.
> Things like celebrating the holidays of the
> countries they were born in or dressing in traditional clothing etc... Do
> domestically adopted kids also follow the religions and customs of their
> biological beginnings as well? Given the recent events that seem to have made
> afro-italian-polish-irish-islamic-chinese-japanese-german-english-french-r
> ussian-guatemalan-vietnamese- Americans - just plain Americans,
I'm no more, no less a hyphenated American than I was a month ago.
> does that
> change anyone's mind about the importance of the countries or backgrounds their
> children may have come from as opposed to where they live now as citizens of
> The United States of America?
Helps me understand the importance even more than I did before.
Best
wishes.
Sue T.
PLAYROY1
Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001 8:59 AM
Message-id: <9pn9ob$b...@holmes.umd.edu>
In article <20011005121148...@mb-md.aol.com>,
PLAYROY1 <play...@aol.com> wrote:
>I'd like to hear others opinions on whether or not or to what extent a child
>adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than their
>afamily should be taught their biological heritage. I've heard some American
>folk will go to great lengths to instill the culture of their foriegn born
>children's biobeginnings in them. Things like celebrating the holidays of the
>countries they were born in or dressing in traditional clothing etc... Do
>domestically adopted kids also follow the religions and customs of their
>biological beginnings as well? Given the recent events that seem to have made
>afro-italian-polish-irish-islamic-chinese-japanese-german-english-french-r
>ussian-guatemalan-vietnamese- Americans - just plain Americans, does that
>change anyone's mind about the importance of the countries or backgrounds
their
>children may have come from as opposed to where they live now as citizens of
>The United States of America?
A child adoptd from overseas should be exposed to as much of their native
culture as humanly possible. Why? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY!
ROY: My children were less than 2 years old when they were adopted, how could
Russia have anything to do with their identity other than the fact that it is
the geographic location of where they were born?
My daughter will probably never know her b-pars. But, she knows she is
Chinese American. Roy, if you plan to ignore your kids' Russian heritage,
you are doing them a horrible disservice.
ROY: I consider my children part of planet Earth. I will teach them about
Russia for sure, as I will teach them about the rest of the world we all belong
to. A heritage is something you belong to and have a connection with. Other
than having been born in Russia, they have no heritage.
When kids reach adolescence, they have to figure out who they
are. Lacking contact with b-pars, it is imperative that they have ongoing
relationships with their birth-culture.
ROY: LOL! Sorry, but we are not on the same page at ALL!!!
I strongly advise that you take your kids to Russian language school,
celebrate Russian holidays and above all, make contact with the
Russian-Amrican population. Try to find Russian baby sitters for your
kids. Find a group f other parents who adopted from Russia and
participate in their activities.
ROY: And I strongly suggest the opposite. It is difficult enough for adopted
kids not to feel like they are different than the rest of the world. To do
this IMO would be doing them a terrible disservice. It would may make them
feel totally separate from their family and may make them feel like they don't
belong in their present life. I think your choice to force a culture on
children simply because they were born in a different part of the world could
hurt them way more than if one chose to ignore the culture. I choose not to
ignore it, but you go waaaay too far.
Of course, you could bury your head in the sand like Don and claim that
the US is the only country that matters. Not a good idea.
ROY: No, not a good idea. But looking at fake borders of countries and
perpetuating the idea that we are all separate and not one world of human
beings is not a good idea either, IMO.
May I make a suggestion to you. America is made up of vastly different
cultures within our same borders. A New Yorker is certainly in a different
culture than a Texan who is different than one who grows up in Los Angeles or
the mid-west. If you lived in Dallas, and adopted a child from New York, would
you go out of your way to teach your child theatre, take them to the ballet,
grill them on the stock market and feed them Nathan's hot dogs and New York
style pizza? Would you find babysitters who came from New York? Join a group
for out of state New Yorkers? and celebrate the day New york became a state?
If not? Why not?
Linda Fortney
PLAYROY1 <play...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>A child adoptd from overseas should be exposed to as much of their native
>culture as humanly possible. Why? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY!
>
>ROY: My children were less than 2 years old when they were adopted, how could
>Russia have anything to do with their identity other than the fact that it is
>the geographic location of where they were born?
My child was als less than two when adopted. What does China have to do
with her identity? All she needs to do is look in a mirror. I know Roy,
that you are havily into the "pretend adoption never happened" mode, but
this is a lie.
>
>My daughter will probably never know her b-pars. But, she knows she is
>Chinese American. Roy, if you plan to ignore your kids' Russian heritage,
>you are doing them a horrible disservice.
>ROY: I consider my children part of planet Earth. I will teach them about
>Russia for sure, as I will teach them about the rest of the world we all belong
>to. A heritage is something you belong to and have a connection with. Other
>than having been born in Russia, they have no heritage.
Oh Jaysus, Roy. Face the facts. Genetics are significant. I know that
this doesn't fit into your "let's pretend" mode, but nevertheless it is
fact.
>
>When kids reach adolescence, they have to figure out who they
>are. Lacking contact with b-pars, it is imperative that they have ongoing
>relationships with their birth-culture.
>ROY: LOL! Sorry, but we are not on the same page at ALL!!!
>
Gads, can you read for comprehension at all? How many people have you
seen on this newsgroup who are frantic to connect with their b-pars s they
can know where they came from. In your utterly selfish view, this makes
them ungrateful to the people who raised them, but the reality is, it is
an important part of who they are. Your kids will probably never know
their b-pars, and you through your selfishness will deny them the next
best thing, knowledge of their culture.
>ROY: And I strongly suggest the opposite. It is difficult enough for adopted
>kids not to feel like they are different than the rest of the world. To do
>this IMO would be doing them a terrible disservice. It would may make them
>feel totally separate from their family and may make them feel like they don't
>belong in their present life.
Are you going to keep the fact that they are adopted a deep, dark secret
from them? My child has heard the word adoption expressed in a positive
manner since we brought her home Doing anything else is foolhardy.
I think your choice to force a culture on
>children simply because they were born in a different part of the world could
>hurt them way more than if one chose to ignore the culture. I choose not to
>ignore it, but you go waaaay too far.
In a pig's eye. Every adoption expert tells his or her readers to do
exactly what we've been doing.* Talk to the parents of Korean
adoptees. See what they have to tell you about how they raised their now
adult kids.
>
>May I make a suggestion to you. America is made up of vastly different
>cultures within our same borders. A New Yorker is certainly in a different
>culture than a Texan who is different than one who grows up in Los Angeles or
>the mid-west.
You haven't the first blessed idea of a realistic definition of
culture. The New Yorker and the Texan speak the same language and share a
common world view.
Linda
* I know of scads of excellent books you should read, but I will not
waste my time compiling a bibliography for you. You already know
everything or so you think.
Julia
wrote:
Sounds like a fascinating book Sue. I'll look out for it.
I'm counting the weeks until our trip to India in November. The best
part of taking Madhu back for the month-long visit will be that we are
staying with Indian families instead of hotels.
Julia
rkbose
Taco Bell. Pizza. Baseball. Chearleaders. American spelling. Forthrightness. And
of course, automobiles. Preferably, many automobiles.
Rupa
LilMtnCbn
>Date: 10/6/01 11:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <3BBFEACE...@pacific.net.sg>
No more Burger King for me!!
Burger King Workers Burn Feet
The Associated Press
Saturday, Oct. 6, 2001; 3:34 p.m. EDT
MIAMI ––
About a dozen Burger King marketing-department workers
burned their feet when they walked over white-hot coals at a meeting
intended to promote bonding.
One woman was taken to a hospital emergency room, and Burger King
brought in a doctor to treat others whose feet were blistered. Some
workers used wheelchairs the next day when they went to the airport to
leave for another company retreat.
More than 100 employees at the Ocean Reef Club in Key Largo
participated Wednesday in the firewalking, a ritual with origins in
religions of the Far East.
The Burger King workers had to sign a waiver acknowledging they might
get hurt. The injured employees suffered first- and second-degree
burns.
Mildred Morse, a Burger King administrative assistant, was the most
seriously hurt. She was released from Baptist Hospital on Thursday.
"You're walking over hot coals, and something can happen," said Robert
Kallen, owner of The Achievement Group, which ran the event. "The
majority of the people get through it without a nick or a blister."
A certified instructor, Kallen has led thousands of participants over
coals that can be as hot as 1,200 degrees.
Dana Frydman, vice president of product marketing for Burger King, was
injured but had no regrets about the event she helped organize.
"It made you feel a sense of empowerment," Frydman said, "and that you
can accomplish anything."
© Copyright 2001 The Associated Press
Ron Morgan
"rkbose" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
news:3BBFEACE...@pacific.net.sg...
> Anton Sweeney wrote:
>
> Taco Bell. Pizza. Baseball. Chearleaders. American spelling.
Forthrightness. And
> of course, automobiles. Preferably, many automobiles.
A mid-fifites Ford longbed pickup truck, a pair of Justin cowboy boots,
Levis, the drive through the Boron desert from Bakersfield to Las Vegas, Sun
Records in Memphis, Strombolis pizza on St. Marks Place and 2nd Ave, riding
the subway to Yankee stadium, reading "On the Road" and "Catcher in the Rye"
when you're a teenager, sitting on your roof in Boulder and watching the
lightning storms on the prairie. Riding an Indian chopper with a suicide
clutch down Atlantic Boulevard to the Pike in San Pedro for a spin on the
Cyclone Racer. Getting on the streetcar on Market Street and finding Bootsy
Collins nodding off in the back in a silver spandex rhinestone sequined
jumpsuit. Stepping over shabby little old ladies asleep on warm exhaust
grates in the otherwise frozen streets. Entering cities by night; driving
over the Grapevine into LA, over the Bay Bridge into the City, over the
Hudson into Manhatten, over the Tetons into Salt Lake City during a
thunderstorm, flying into Dallas or Houston for a five hour layover, going
out of the building for a cigarette, and seeing signs on the entry way to
leave your guns in your car.
>
> Rupa
>
Anton Sweeney
> A child adoptd from overseas should be exposed to as much of their native
> culture as humanly possible. Why? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY!
>
> ROY: My children were less than 2 years old when they were adopted, how
could
> Russia have anything to do with their identity other than the fact that it
is
> the geographic location of where they were born?
Anton: Hmm. Can you explain then, how come there are so few Americans.
There are Irish-, Italian-, Polish-, Russian-, Jewish-, German-, African-,
whatever-Americans. 40 million Irish-Americans claim Irish descent and
their Irish heritage is extremely important to them. The same goes for all
the other 'brands' of American, despite the fact that they may be several or
many generations removed from their homeland. It is *still* an integral
part of their identity.
Hell, you can forget trying to find someone's original birth cert in Dublin
in the peak tourist season because the Registrar's Office is invariably full
of Americans trying to find their roots. "Any idea what your
great-great-grandfather's date of birth was?" "Shucks, no, but try March
17th for me, would ya?"
> ROY: I consider my children part of planet Earth. I will teach them about
> Russia for sure, as I will teach them about the rest of the world we all
belong
> to. A heritage is something you belong to and have a connection with.
Other
> than having been born in Russia, they have no heritage.
You are *very* much mistaken and you are doing them a huge disservice. I
only hope that they don't resent you for it later in life. You do realise
that your attitudes towards tracing will probably lead them to be 'secret'
tracers - the type who instead of relying on adoptive parents' support when
they decide to trace, instead hide it from them or even wait till they're
dead.
Anton
Anton Sweeney
laid
> back lifestyle of Los Angeles or the fast paced lifestyle of New York? OR
the
> hard work ethic of the mid-west? Having been to Russia, France and
England, my
> observations of culture demonstrated that the difference in culture
between
> Moscow and New York was little different in degree than Los Angeles to
Dallas.
Well, my travels have been limited to the UK, France, Greece, Italy, the
Netherlands, the former Yugoslavia and the US (Florida and New Orleans). All
I can say is you must have been jet-lagged. There are huge cultural
differences even between England and Ireland.
A
Anton Sweeney
Hmm - better not supply them or Don will jump in...
A
"Ron Morgan" <morg...@home.com> wrote in message
news:dgUv7.11500$IY3.8...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com...
rkbose
> "PLAYROY1" <play...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> > ROY: I consider my children part of planet Earth. I will teach them about
> > Russia for sure, as I will teach them about the rest of the world we all
> belong
> > to. A heritage is something you belong to and have a connection with.
> Other
> > than having been born in Russia, they have no heritage.
>
> You are *very* much mistaken and you are doing them a huge disservice. I
> only hope that they don't resent you for it later in life. You do realise
> that your attitudes towards tracing will probably lead them to be 'secret'
> tracers - the type who instead of relying on adoptive parents' support when
> they decide to trace, instead hide it from them or even wait till they're
> dead.
It's interesting. We're from India, including the a-kid. (For those not familiar
with India, think Europe: Different languages, different cultures, different
foods in different areas.) As it happens, we're each born in a different part of
the country, including the a-kiddo. The only language we all have in common is
English. For the most part, we have been living overseas, in an English language
environment, since the kids were toddlers. Have we made an effort to stay
connected to the culture, or rather, any of the several relevant cultures? Well,
there are occasional visits to one grandparent (a-grand), which keeps them
connected to that specific culture in some sort of fashion (though they can't
speak the local language). For the rest ... well... who knows? I suppose they
pick up something by osmosis.
But for now, they don't usually want to come with us when we go to Indian
restaurants. The a-kid feels a spiritual connection to The Outback, videogames,
and Hollywood rather than Bollywood. The b-kid chose to organise a show
representing France on UN Night at the school, not one representing India.
For all that they have grown up in an Indian family, they have less exposure
than Julia's Indian kids.
Rupa
wally
would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
. a dead language.
but then perhaps it would be simpler not to steal children from other
countries in the first place.
if you start teaching them their culture they might start to ask
questions.
like' why did you exploit my mother?'
or if you can pay the baby sellers 20000 dollars ,maybe you should
have just given it to my mother instead? but oh sorry ,i forgot your
scum ,exploiting the poor of the 2nd world.
jmh...@aol.commisery (J ) wrote in message news:<20011005192222...@nso-mt.aol.com>...
> In article <kmvrrtg6n12si15g3...@4ax.com>, Victoria Lawson
> <victori...@verizon.NOSPAM.net> writes:
>
> >
> >On 05 Oct 2001 16:11:48 GMT, play...@aol.com (PLAYROY1) wrote:
> >
> >>I'd like to hear others opinions on whether or not or to what extent a child
> >>adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than
> their
> >>afamily should be taught their biological heritage.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >Why not? I was born to and raised by my natural parents, and we did
> >all the Italian and Irish stuff we could, just because. It certainly
> >enriched our lives.
> >
> >Vicki
>
>
> Piggybacking on Vicki's post:
>
> Yes, an internationally adopted child should be taught at least something about
> the country and culture into which he was born. It's part and parcel of
> establishing a sense of personal history, of being a part of a continuing
> process, as opposed to having been plucked like a doll from a cabbage patch.
> How much depends on the child and his interest level once he reaches a certain
> age. You might want to watch for the documentary "First Person Plural" on PBS,
> for a sense of what some Korean international adoptees feel on the subject.
>
> My son takes a good deal of pride in where he was born, in being able to tell
> people about it, and in telling of the friends and family he has their (birth
> and foster). He's unusual in that he has met all of his immediate birth
> family, other than his father. This enhances his interest in the subject and
> the language, which he speaks well enough to have acted as our translator for
> part of our visit this year.
>
> J.
Anton Sweeney
> For all that they have grown up in an Indian family, they have less
exposure
> than Julia's Indian kids.
>
> Rupa
The difference between you and Roy being you're in no way averse to denying
them their culture.
And yes, people are individuals. Just as some adopted people desperately
want to trace and some never give it a thought, some people will be
interested in their cultre of origin and some won't.
A
Roberta
place?
Roberta
mom to Juliette, 5.5, adopted 2/4/98 from China
AdoptaDad
The Associated Press
Saturday, Oct. 6, 2001; 3:34 p.m. EDT
MIAMI ––
About a dozen Burger King marketing-department workers burned their feet when
they walked over white-hot coals at a meeting intended to promote bonding.
The Maketing Department? Bwaaaaahaaahaa.
If I never hafta buy another Kids Meal just for the damn toy, it will be too
soon.
Dad
LilMtnCbn
>Date: 10/7/01 7:20 AM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20011007092042...@mb-fq.aol.com>
It gives new meaning to *flame broiled*. LOL
rkbose
> So Roy, if your mind is made up, why did you pose the question in the first
> place?
I think there's a difference between having your mind made up, and having a POV
that might change if other people put forward ideas you haven't considered.
I think this is a valid debate. If the a-kids don't physically resemble people
in the a-par's culture, then it seems evident that they should be taught
something of their bio-culture. But I've wondered if the case is that clear for
a-kids who do. What I'm hearing from some of the adoptees at least is that they
do believe their culture of origin should be taught.
My own a-kid is not actually into doing anything extra in that direction...
Rupa
helicon
"wally" <irelan...@yahoogroups.com> wrote in message
news:914462ca.01100...@posting.google.com...
> yeah ,i only found out in my twenties that i was half italian . i
> would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
> . a dead language.
Nothing dead about the Irish language. Mind you, you don't seem to have made
much headway with English, so have you thought that you might have had a bit
of difficulty with the Italian language too? Have you made any effort to
learn it, as an adult? No? It might mean you'd have to get up off your
backside, no doubt, and mingle with the rest of stinking humanity. You might
sully your intellect.
> but then perhaps it would be simpler not to steal children from other
> countries in the first place.
Ohhhhh - were you a 'stolen' child? I thought you were born in Ireland to an
Irish woman.
> if you start teaching them their culture they might start to ask
> questions.
> like' why did you exploit my mother?'
Who was it exploited her? Your father? Or were you snatched away from her
when she wasn't looking? Did she abandon you? Relinquish you? You know,
there are people who wonder what 'screening' is for - I suggest that it is
to ensure that some poor unfortunate woman is not going to be faced down by
a crackpot such as you without some form of warning.
> or if you can pay the baby sellers 20000 dollars ,maybe you should
> have just given it to my mother instead?
Please explain why J. should not have adopted his son and instead have given
$20,000 to YOUR MOTHER INSTEAD????? You are truly out of your tree.
Just think - I was going to apologise for my intemperate remarks about you.
LOL - NO CHANCE now - you blew it, bucko. The apology has been swallowed in
the involuntary gasp at your breathtaking temerity, incredible stupidity and
overweening sense of self-importance.
You are an utterly self-absorbed, bitter little flake. If you have a
redeeming feature, insofar as you have revealed yourself on this newsgroup,
it has entirely escaped me.
but oh sorry ,i forgot your
> scum ,exploiting the poor of the 2nd world.
Get lost you blasted eejit. Do something with your life instead of wallowing
in self-pity about how the world - NO - how *** J.!!!*** owes you a living.
Go find your father and ask him why he didn't give your mother $20,000 to
keep you in the style to which you might have become accustomed.
Aahhhhhhhhhhhh.
Helen
Sue Tretter
Julia wrote:
<snip>
re: WUHU DIARY by Prager ...
> Sounds like a fascinating book Sue. I'll look out for it.
I hope you'll comment on it when you do read it. I might not be here then but
there will always be newbie aparents who can benefit from something other
than the How-To-Win-The-Adoption-Game type books.
> I'm counting the weeks until our trip to India in November. The best
> part of taking Madhu back for the month-long visit will be that we are
> staying with Indian families instead of hotels.
I thought of you when I read this book.
Best wishes to you, Madhu and the entire family, especially as you travel.
Sue T.
LilMtnCbn
>From: "helicon" hel...@eircom.net
>Date: 10/7/01 8:55 AM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8YZv7.5009$w5.3...@news.indigo.ie>
>
>
>"wally" <irelan...@yahoogroups.com> wrote in message
>news:914462ca.01100...@posting.google.com...
>
>> yeah ,i only found out in my twenties that i was half italian . i
>> would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
>> . a dead language.
>
>Nothing dead about the Irish language. Mind you, you don't seem to have made
>much headway with English, so have you thought that you might have had a bit
>of difficulty with the Italian language too? Have you made any effort to
>learn it, as an adult? No? It might mean you'd have to get up off your
>backside, no doubt, and mingle with the rest of stinking humanity. You might
>sully your intellect.
Just a question Helen. Here in the states, high school students have elective
language classes....usually Spanish and French, although they had German when
hubby and I were teenagers. Do they have a broad variety of Foreign language
studies in school in Ireland (pre-university)?
helicon
"LilMtnCbn" <lilm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011007110046...@mb-cr.aol.com...
Yes, Irish and English are compulsory throughout with French as an optional
extra in many state-run primary schools. In *private* junior schools it is
not unusual for languages to be emphasised. So a youngster could begin one
or two of French/Spanish/German at a young age, and continue one or all of
them at secondary level, where they go at about the age of 13.
At secondary level there is still the compulsory Irish and English, and
either French/Spanish/German up to Junior Cert - nine or ten subjects,
usually.
The Junior Cert course is two years, and then there is Transition Year,
which is a time for learning extra-curricular subjects - including a
'different' European language, and computer studies etc.
Then for the two-year Leaving Cert course, most students continue with
whichever languages they wish to be examined in (including the compulsory
Irish and English) - there are usually seven+ subjects, with whichever are
the six highest-marked subjects out of the seven+ giving the 'points' to
gain entry to whatever college course the student is aiming for. One girl
got nine A1s, which is some achievement, but would still only 'count' six of
them for college.
A friend's daughter did Irish, English, French, Spanish and German to a very
high standard. She did other subjects equally well, and went to the College
of Surgeons. She is now an intern. The languages -*dead* alive! - certainly
didn't hold HER back!
I only did two years' of Latin because I changed to another secondary school
where it wasn't offered, but I found it very beneficial later, for learning
other languages.
Helen
PLAYROY1
Alert!)
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 3:59 AM
Message-id: <914462ca.01100...@posting.google.com>
yeah ,i only found out in my twenties that i was half italian . i
would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
. a dead language.
but then perhaps it would be simpler not to steal children from other
countries in the first place.
if you start teaching them their culture they might start to ask
questions.
like' why did you exploit my mother?'
or if you can pay the baby sellers 20000 dollars ,maybe you should
have just given it to my mother instead? but oh sorry ,i forgot your
scum ,exploiting the poor of the 2nd world.
ROY: So you're in favor of children growing up in orphanges and dying young
after they are turned out on the streets then?
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 3:00 AM
Message-id: <rJVv7.2924$j22....@news.iol.ie>
A
ROY: All humans eat and sleep and love and hate. We all, once we meet face to
face, usually like each other. We all like to be entertained. We all have
different religious and political beliefs. But we are all human. We are one,
like it or not. So what if we speak a different language or eat more of one
kind of food or another. We all like music, but even in the USA different
parts of the country pefer predominantly certain types of music, Nashville vs
Hollywood for example. Grits in the south, biscuits and gravy in Pennsylvania,
New York pizza and sourdough bread of San Francisco.
helicon
> << Subject: Re: Should Akids bioCulture Be taught to them? (Reply to Roy
> Alert!)
> From: irelan...@yahoogroups.com (wally)
> Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 3:59 AM
> Message-id: <914462ca.01100...@posting.google.com>
>
> yeah ,i only found out in my twenties that i was half italian . i
> would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
> . a dead language.
> but then perhaps it would be simpler not to steal children from other
> countries in the first place.
> if you start teaching them their culture they might start to ask
> questions.
> like' why did you exploit my mother?'
> or if you can pay the baby sellers 20000 dollars ,maybe you should
> have just given it to my mother instead? but oh sorry ,i forgot your
> scum ,exploiting the poor of the 2nd world.
>
> ROY: So you're in favor of children growing up in orphanges and dying
young
> after they are turned out on the streets then?
You MUST be joking! This tulip reckons that J. should pay his mother to keep
him in the manner to which he could become accustomed. To hell with other
children. Why should he be bothered about *them*?
PLAYROY1
Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001 6:58 PM
Message-id: <9pocrl$k...@marple.umd.edu>
In article <20011006181109...@mb-mq.aol.com>,
PLAYROY1 <play...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>A child adoptd from overseas should be exposed to as much of their native
>culture as humanly possible. Why? BECAUSE IT IS PART OF THEIR IDENTITY!
>
>ROY: My children were less than 2 years old when they were adopted, how could
>Russia have anything to do with their identity other than the fact that it is
>the geographic location of where they were born?
My child was als less than two when adopted. What does China have to do
with her identity? All she needs to do is look in a mirror.
ROY: Last I looked Americans come in all colors.
I know Roy,
that you are havily into the "pretend adoption never happened" mode, but
this is a lie.
ROY: I'm not sure how you got that from anything I've said. Its not true. To
me adoption is the superior of the many ways a family can come together.
>
>My daughter will probably never know her b-pars. But, she knows she is
>Chinese American.
ROY: She's also human just like you and all the other people of the world
(okay not terrorists, I'm not sure what kind of creatures they are, but I would
never classify them as human).
Roy, if you plan to ignore your kids' Russian heritage,
>you are doing them a horrible disservice.
>ROY: I consider my children part of planet Earth. I will teach them about
>Russia for sure, as I will teach them about the rest of the world we all
belong
>to. A heritage is something you belong to and have a connection with. Other
>than having been born in Russia, they have no heritage.
Oh Jaysus, Roy. Face the facts. Genetics are significant. I know that
this doesn't fit into your "let's pretend" mode, but nevertheless it is
fact.
ROY: Pretending, to me, would be thinking genetics play any part in the
significant parts of life, such as love and family and all of those who care
about you.
PLAYROY1
From: "Anton Sweeney" not@a_real_address_on.Usenet
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 2:53 AM
Message-id: <bCVv7.2923$j22....@news.iol.ie>
Anton
ROY: Or like John Lennon and all of the millions of those who share his belief
in one world, my children may and I pray they do, grow up to feel they are part
of the human race, one world, not separate. They will be taught the beauty of
Russia and they will know where they were born. But teaching children to
perpetuate the beliefs of 'me' vs 'them' is not a loving thing to do.
>>
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 5:40 AM
Message-id: <20011007084044...@mb-da.aol.com>
So Roy, if your mind is made up, why did you pose the question in the first
place?
ROY: It was not MY mind that was made up. After hearing others, I expressed
my opinion. But nobody has given any kind of compelling enough argument to
change my mind. I've yet to hear one argument that addresses my contention
that a child born in New York and adopted by a family in Texas is any different
than a child born in China and adopted in say, Chicago. The differences in
culture are just as vast between states in the USA as they are between
countries outside of the USA.
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 7:36 AM
Message-id: <3BC06882...@pacific.net.sg>
Roberta wrote:
> So Roy, if your mind is made up, why did you pose the question in the first
> place?
I think there's a difference between having your mind made up, and having a POV
that might change if other people put forward ideas you haven't considered.
ROY: Exactly right, Rupa.
I think this is a valid debate. If the a-kids don't physically resemble people
in the a-par's culture, then it seems evident that they should be taught
something of their bio-culture.
ROY: I think telling your child where they were born, no matter what they look
like is important. But IMO making them feel different from your family because
of where they were born may do more harm than good. What the child looks like,
to me, is irrelavent. Americans come in all colors/races.
But I've wondered if the case is that clear for
a-kids who do. What I'm hearing from some of the adoptees at least is that they
do believe their culture of origin should be taught.
ROY: I think teaching a child about ALL realigions and philosphies as well as
ALL cultures of the world is important. It brings us all together as opposed
to teaching them 'you are this' and 'they are that' and 'we are this'. Instead
teaching them we are all human and emphasizing to them our similarities instead
of our differences.
Roberta
Message-id: <3BC06882...@pacific.net.sg>
Roberta wrote:
Rupa
>>
Rupa,
I think it's a valid debate too. But Roy's first post on this subject made it
appear that he was interested in hearing the viewpoints of others, i.e., trying
to make an informed decision about what he would do for his kids.
As for your kids, I think it makes a huge difference if the adoptive kids share
the same national heritage as their aparents. As a white woman raising a child
from China, I think it's very good for her to learn about where she came from
and to have regular, significant contact with children and adults that look
like her, rather than being mostly in settings with children and adults that
look like me.
Like Julia, I consider my daughter to be a citizen of the world and I would
like nothing else for her to feel the same. But the world will see a Chinese
girl/woman when they look at her, and I want her to feel comfortable with and
knowledgeable about where she came from.
Many of our most revealing conversations about race have resulted from her
conversations with her friends on our block, who are mostly African-American.
Very interesting discussion when my five-year-old tells me that her friends'
parents say that the policeman is not always their friend.
Below is Roy's original post.
Message 1 in threadFrom: PLAYROY1 (play...@aol.com)
Subject: Should Akids bioCulture Be taught to them?
Newsgroups: alt.adoption
View this article onlyDate: 2001-10-05 09:12:29 PST
I'd like to hear others opinions on whether or not or to what extent a child
adopted internationally or an American child of a different culture than their
afamily should be taught their biological heritage. I've heard some American
folk will go to great lengths to instill the culture of their foriegn born
children's biobeginnings in them. Things like celebrating the holidays of the
countries they were born in or dressing in traditional clothing etc... Do
domestically adopted kids also follow the religions and customs of their
biological beginnings as well? Given the recent events that seem to have made
afro-italian-polish-irish-islamic-chinese-japanese-german-english-french-r
ussian-guatemalan-vietnamese- Americans - just plain Americans, does that
change anyone's mind about the importance of the countries or backgrounds their
children may have come from as opposed to where they live now as citizens of
The United States of America?
Anton Sweeney
New York pizza and sourdough bread of San Francisco."
Exactly, and again, examples of different culture. There was a huge
difference to us, as visitors, in the culture of New Orleans to that of
Florida.
*shudder* You've just reminded me, though, of the first time we ordered
breakfast in Florida. "You want grits with that?" "Errr......ok" - a few
minutes later "Daddy, I don't WANT porridge on my plate, take it OFF!!!"
A
Elizabeth
>So Roy, if your mind is made up, why did you pose the question in the first
>place?
>
>
>Roberta
Honestly. Did anyone here really think Roy wanted to know your opinion? He
already knew it was Roy against the world. He only brought up the topic to
give himself a springboard from which to further spew his narrowminded inanity.
That said, I'll share with everyone else. I don't immerse my son in the
Russian culture. He knows he came from Russia, and we stay in touch with
several families who have adopted children from there. When we see a Russian
athlete perform on television, we point it out to him (well, at this point,
*he* usually notices it first and points it out -- proudly -- to us). He knows
that Russia is far away and that we will all go together when he's a bit older.
We read Russian fairytales and rhymes. One of our favorite books is a
beautiful adaptation of The Firebird, done by Demi. When his kindergarten
celebrated Earth Day with an International Festival, he represented Ukraine
(Russia was already taken by another child). Otherwise, we don't celebrate
Russian holidays or wear Russian costumes. We don't send him to Russian
language lessons because he has a difficult time as it is with language delays
and auditory processing problems. We have subscribed for the past five years
(since he came home) to Russian Life magazine; every issue in order that he may
later have a source of knowledge about what Russia was like in the 90's and
later, his lifetime. While in Russia, we bought many beautiful Russian made
items and toys. Some are displayed in our home, others are stored away for
Michael to enjoy when he's older.
In short, while we don't immerse Michael or ourlselves in the Russian culture,
we do try to instill in him and to reinforce pride in his heritage and in the
accomplishments of the Russian people.
Elizabeth
Julia
wrote:
<snip>
>
>For all that they have grown up in an Indian family, they have less exposure
>than Julia's Indian kids.
>
>Rupa
I'll bet that your kids have a firm idea of Indian-ness though, Rupa.
They'd have picked it up through osmosis and can choose their
identity, whether it be to identify themselves primarily as Indian,
Bengali or whatever.
I'm hoping the end result for my kids will also be that same choice.
Much of our involvement has been of a general Indian flavour, but we
also have specific Tamil or Maharashtrian activities that focus on the
kids specific backgrounds. We've included Hindu activities, but as I
haven't yet made any Indian moslem friends, my kids moslem heritage
has been neglected. I'd love to also involve our sons probable tribal
background but that is not possible - no tribal Indians here.
We've had to manufacture ways for our kids to become exposed to Indian
and Korean culture and people, or it would never happen. I've had
people criticise our decision to involve our kids in their birth
culture, but I feel my validation came last year when we returned from
a tour of Korea. I asked my son whether he felt Australian or Korean?
He said he felt he was an Aussie Korean - that when he was in Korea he
felt more Korean, and when he was in Australia he felt more
Australian, but he always felt both were a part of him. His answer
contrasted dramatically with that of an adult intercountry adoptee I
know who told me she felt she was an outsider in both countries.
Julia
J
irelan...@yahoogroups.com (wally) writes:
>yeah ,i only found out in my twenties that i was half italian . i
>would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
>. a dead language.
>but then perhaps it would be simpler not to steal children from other
>countries in the first place.
>if you start teaching them their culture they might start to ask
>questions.
>like' why did you exploit my mother?'
>or if you can pay the baby sellers 20000 dollars ,maybe you should
>have just given it to my mother instead? but oh sorry ,i forgot your
>scum ,exploiting the poor of the 2nd world.
I can't think of a moment in my life when I've felt less concern over such a
venomous condemnation, Wally. Thanks for writing.
J.
PS Thanks for defending me in my absence, Helen.
KL
writes:
I think as an adoptee I wish I had had more of my own birth-culture presented
to me. I did have some, but I don't speak the language, and never learned to
appreciate the food, and feel like I missed out on a huge part of something
special.
KL
"You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful because
you love them." - Anon.
helicon
"J " <jmh...@aol.commisery> wrote in message
news:20011007192200...@nso-de.aol.com...
> In article <914462ca.01100...@posting.google.com>,
> irelan...@yahoogroups.com (wally) writes:
>
> >yeah ,i only found out in my twenties that i was half italian . i
> >would have preferred to have learned that at school instaed of 'irish'
> >. a dead language.
> >but then perhaps it would be simpler not to steal children from other
> >countries in the first place.
> >if you start teaching them their culture they might start to ask
> >questions.
> >like' why did you exploit my mother?'
> >or if you can pay the baby sellers 20000 dollars ,maybe you should
> >have just given it to my mother instead? but oh sorry ,i forgot your
> >scum ,exploiting the poor of the 2nd world.
>
> I can't think of a moment in my life when I've felt less concern over such
a
> venomous condemnation, Wally.
Brilliant! I really like your style, J.
Thanks for writing.
>
> J.
>
> PS Thanks for defending me in my absence, Helen.
My pleasure. Unfortunately it will have sailed right over his tiny little
head.
Helen
KL
(PLAYROY1) writes:
OK Roy, I was born, adopted, and raised in CA, and yet I would have been raised
in a completely different culture if my birthparents had been married and kept
me. I was raised as a caucasian american instead of as a mexican american, and
there was a HUGE difference. And my birthfather lived in the same dang city I
did. The differences in culture are vast in the same city, not just locations.
I would have liked to have more of a mexican influence in my upbringing, but I
honestly think my aparents were afraid of running into my bfather if they did
that. So, I end up paying the price and losing out, by having less of a sense
of identity. Because I know I am not as white as my aparents. Granted I am
mixed. I am half white and half mexican, but that half mexican part is just as
important, and isn't as easily concealed as some would think. It did me a
great disservice to not introduce me to that culture. IMHO.....which is the
only one that should count in my life......if you ask me....
KL
<not@a_real_address_on.Usenet> writes:
Hey now.....some people like grits.........God, I am a sad Mexican, huh? LOL
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 2:23 PM
Message-id: <20011007172320...@mb-cs.aol.com>
Elizabeth
ROY: And what else do you do to make your son feel like he doesn't belong to
your family? I'm curious as to why you choose to make him feel so much like an
outsider and different from you?
>>
Lisa F. Wilson-Gee
> << Subject: Re: Should Akids bioCulture Be taught to them?
> From: ro...@aol.comnojunk (Roberta)
> Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 5:40 AM
> Message-id: <20011007084044...@mb-da.aol.com>
So Roy, if your mind is made up, why did you pose the question in the
first
> place?
>
> ROY: It was not MY mind that was made up. After hearing others, I expressed
> my opinion. But nobody has given any kind of compelling enough argument to
> change my mind.
I wonder, Roy, if you are willing to hear, not just listen but
actually hear, any ideas that oppose your views.
Roy:
> I've yet to hear one argument that addresses my contention
> that a child born in New York and adopted by a family in Texas is any different
> than a child born in China and adopted in say, Chicago.
Roy, for all intents and purposes I was a "domestic" adoption
(actually, a "grey market" adoption, but that's a whole other thread),
but that doesn't change the fact that my heritage (both adopted and
bio) plays a large role in who I am. We are all products of so many
different factors. Denying any of those factors is denying parts of
ourselves. What do you fear will happen if you embrace your children's
unique biological heritages as well as the heritage they receive from
being a member of your family?
Roy:
The differences in
> culture are just as vast between states in the USA as they are between
> countries outside of the USA.
Not quite, Roy. For the most part we (as Americans) speak the same
language, celebrate the same holidays, learn the same history and
share the same freedoms. Sure, we may have minor differences (I say
"Hoagie", you say "Sub", someone else says "Grinder") but our
"heritage", as "Americans" is a shared one.
Lisa F. Wilson-Gee
Elizabeth
>> I can't think of a moment in my life when I've felt less concern over such
>a
>> venomous condemnation, Wally.
>
You and me both, J.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth
>your family? I'm curious as to why you choose to make him feel so much like
>an
>outsider and different from you?
>
Could you be any stupider? I thought not.
Elizabeth
Ron Morgan
> << Subject: Re: Should Akids bioCulture Be taught to them?
>
> ROY: Or like John Lennon and all of the millions of those who share his
belief
> in one world, my children may and I pray they do, grow up to feel they are
part
> of the human race, one world, not separate. They will be taught the
beauty of
> Russia and they will know where they were born. But teaching children to
> perpetuate the beliefs of 'me' vs 'them' is not a loving thing to do.
Roy is going to raise them as citizens of McWorld, just like the rest of us
Americans. It is no surprise that he writes that his kids have no heritage,
that is the dream of assimilation, countered by the dream of reconciliation,
like the queues of Americans in the Dublin vital records office. People
immigrate here, raise their kids as Americans, then their grandkids fly back
and trace their roots. To be American is to invent yourself, and sometimes
that creation includes a sense of rootedness to heritage. To be American is
to ride the bus with a bunch of white, Filipino and Latino kids who talk to
each other in hip-hop slang and call each other niggah.
Ron
rkbose
> On Sun, 07 Oct 2001 18:31:37 +0800, rkbose <rkb...@pacific.net.sg>
> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> >For all that they have grown up in an Indian family, they have less exposure
> >than Julia's Indian kids.
> >
> >Rupa
>
> I'll bet that your kids have a firm idea of Indian-ness though, Rupa.
> They'd have picked it up through osmosis and can choose their
> identity, whether it be to identify themselves primarily as Indian,
> Bengali or whatever.
I think they see themselves as international. They don't have an attachment to
their Indian identity. As yet, anyway.
Rupa
rkbose
> As for your kids, I think it makes a huge difference if the adoptive kids share
> the same national heritage as their aparents. As a white woman raising a child
> from China, I think it's very good for her to learn about where she came from
> and to have regular, significant contact with children and adults that look
> like her, rather than being mostly in settings with children and adults that
> look like me.
I agree completely. When my kids were little, they did not remember India at all
(we moved when they were infants). I recall my kids wanting to look caucasian. We
made a special trip back, not just to meet relatives, but so that they would get a
sense of what India was. As it happened, they had an opportunity to live in India
for a while after that. I think the result is that they're more comfortable in
their skins, though they still don't identify as Indian.
For your child, I think knowing what Chinese culture is about will prevent the kind
of embarrassing situation where everyone assumes you're part of a certain culture,
but you know nothing about it. It should also help her be more comfortable with her
self-image.
But I wonder -- does the same logic hold for Roy's kids, who are caucasian and
raised in a caucasian home (I assume)? I'd have said No -- but from what Lisa,
Anton, and others have said, perhaps it's still Yes.
Rupa
rkbose
My kids don't speak *any* Indian language (we have four, potentially, but none of
us speaks more than one). They like some Indian foods, but not necessarily the
ones associated with their heritage. So far, I can't convince them they're missing
anything, but I have got them to refrain from going "Ewww!"
Rupa
Alex Wolfson
>
> "rkbose" <rkb...@pacific.net.sg> wrote in message
> news:3BBFEACE...@pacific.net.sg...
> > Anton Sweeney wrote:
> >
>
> > Taco Bell. Pizza. Baseball. Chearleaders. American spelling.
> Forthrightness. And
> > of course, automobiles. Preferably, many automobiles.
>
> A mid-fifites Ford longbed pickup truck, a pair of Justin cowboy boots,
> Levis, the drive through the Boron desert from Bakersfield to Las Vegas, Sun
> Records in Memphis, Strombolis pizza on St. Marks Place and 2nd Ave, riding
> the subway to Yankee stadium, reading "On the Road" and "Catcher in the Rye"
> when you're a teenager, sitting on your roof in Boulder and watching the
> lightning storms on the prairie. Riding an Indian chopper with a suicide
> clutch down Atlantic Boulevard to the Pike in San Pedro for a spin on the
> Cyclone Racer. Getting on the streetcar on Market Street and finding Bootsy
> Collins nodding off in the back in a silver spandex rhinestone sequined
> jumpsuit. Stepping over shabby little old ladies asleep on warm exhaust
> grates in the otherwise frozen streets. Entering cities by night; driving
> over the Grapevine into LA, over the Bay Bridge into the City, over the
> Hudson into Manhatten, over the Tetons into Salt Lake City during a
> thunderstorm, flying into Dallas or Houston for a five hour layover, going
> out of the building for a cigarette, and seeing signs on the entry way to
> leave your guns in your car.
>
> >
> > Rupa
> >
Blues, Jazz, Rock and Roll, War weary soldiers handing candy bars to hungry
foreign kids, even the enemy ones.
PLAYROY1
Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001 7:03 AM
Message-id: <3BC1C035...@lucent.com>
the visual of the usa:
The view of the New York skyline from Liberty Park in Jersey City, the grand
canyon, Mt. Rushmore, anywhere along the west coast on a beach at sunset, the
vegas strip or times square at night, looking out over the san fernando valley
from the top of topanga cyn, the golden gate bridge, lombard street, the view
from the top of the Empire State building, the color of the water in Maui,
Washington D.C. at cherry blossom time, New England in the fall, the boardwalk
in Seaside and Atlantic City New Jersey, Disneyland and Disneyworld, looking
out an airplane window flying over the midwest and seeing farmland for as far
as you can see, Lakeshore drive in Chicago, winding country roads in
Pensylvania, The Rockafeller Center Christmas Tree, the inside of any theatre
in New York, Radio City, Manns Chinese theater in Hollywood, the Hollywood
sign, the St.Louis Arch, Glacier National park in the summer, The New Jersey
Parkway, the freeways in California, pacific coast highway, Rodeo drive,
Madison ave, Yankee stadium...
>>
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 10:07 PM
Message-id: <Qobw7.15089$IY3.10...@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com>
Ron
ROY: So what should I do about my heritage? I'm German, Irish, English,
Scottish and Indian? Imagine how busy my parents would have been teaching me
all those languages, making sure I had a mix of babysitters that speak all
those languages and know those cultures, not to mention the list of foods. And
what should I do in terms of loyalties? Should I feel more English than German
since I would have supported the English over the Germans in WWII? OR should I
support the German over the English because I like their food better? In
addition to the fourth of July I'd have five other birthdays of countries to
celebrate. I'm wondering why an American adopted child who was adopted
internationally and who has only one other heritage needs to identify deeply
with that one heritage more than another American child who shares several
heritages.
>>
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 6:51 PM
Message-id: <daa58663.01100...@posting.google.com>
ROY: I have no intention of denying the fact that my children were born in
Russia, as I've said many, many times. I will teach them that they are
children of the world and lucky to live in the America as I feel lucky to live
here too. If there is any fear it is that I want my children to not feel
separate from their family. If I were to hold them up and dramatically point
out that they were born in Russia and emphasized this fact to them and the rest
of the world, I believe it would only make them feel separate and different and
make them feel like they don't belong and that they don't fit in to our famliy,
friends and the rest of our country. So there is a huge difference between
'hiding' their heritage, which I have no intention of doing, and emphasizing it
to the point of making the kids feel like outsiders. The fact is that they are
no different than any other American. We all came from other countries and
eventually we will all blend to the point of only identifying with being
American. My dream is that some day the world will only identify with being
human.
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 10:22 PM
Message-id: <3BC1462D...@pacific.net.sg>
Roberta wrote:
Rupa
>>
ROY: I believe that no matter what race a child is in America all the same
rules apply. Americans come in all colors.
PLAYROY1
Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 6:58 PM
Message-id: <20011007225857...@mb-da.aol.com>
Elizabeth
ROY: Easier to call me a name than answer my question.
>>
Elizabeth
>Date: 10/8/01 10:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20011008132746...@mb-fo.aol.com>
Did you even read my post, Roy? Your "question" is like asking a man who
doesn't beat his wife, "When did you start beating your wife?" The only thing
my son thinks is "different" about him is that he was born in Russia. He also
thinks it's "different" that his brother was born in Illinois, that I was born
in Georgia, and that his father was born in Pennsylvania. I honestly don't
think you even read what I wrote. Bugger off, you idiot. I have nothing more
to say to you.
Elizabeth
Anton Sweeney
birthright by being subject to foreign adoption and brought up in rainy,
windy Ireland, with only 0.4 McDonalds on average per parish, and NO Burger
Kings outside Dublin. And not a single Taco Bell EVER, and a KFC that
closed down years ago, and never a H00ters either...
Oh, the angst!
;-)
Anton
"PLAYROY1" <play...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011008130200...@mb-fo.aol.com...
Anton Sweeney
and
> raised in a caucasian home (I assume)? I'd have said No -- but from what
Lisa,
> Anton, and others have said, perhaps it's still Yes.
>
> Rupa
Yes, it does. We have several people on the APA's mailing/discussion list
who were born in Ireland and adopted to America - and not necessarily to
Irish-American families (though all, that I know of, went to Caucasian
parents). Several of them have written of an affinity they had with Ireland
and Irish culture even before knowing their origins. People need to be have
roots, to be grounded somehow.
Three years ago, I brought some (non-Irish-) American visitors on a tour of
Dublin. The teenagers were unimpressed with the likes of Trinity College
until I told them it was built in 15xx (can no longer remember exact
date!) - two hundred years before the USA was founded. Their jaws hit the
floor.
I agree with Roy that we're all citizens of the world - but who wants to
live in a bland monoculture where downtown Hong Kong is the same as downtown
Dublin is the same downtown New York is the same as rural Iowa?
Anton
helicon
"Anton Sweeney" <not@a_real_address_on.Usenet> wrote in message
news:Qqow7.3146$j22....@news.iol.ie...
> > But I wonder -- does the same logic hold for Roy's kids, who are
caucasian
> and
> > raised in a caucasian home (I assume)? I'd have said No -- but from what
> Lisa,
> > Anton, and others have said, perhaps it's still Yes.
> >
> > Rupa
>
> Yes, it does. We have several people on the APA's mailing/discussion list
> who were born in Ireland and adopted to America - and not necessarily to
> Irish-American families (though all, that I know of, went to Caucasian
> parents). Several of them have written of an affinity they had with
Ireland
> and Irish culture even before knowing their origins. People need to be
have
> roots, to be grounded somehow.
>
> Three years ago, I brought some (non-Irish-) American visitors on a tour
of
> Dublin. The teenagers were unimpressed with the likes of Trinity College
> until I told them it was built in 15xx (can no longer remember exact
> date!) - two hundred years before the USA was founded. Their jaws hit the
> floor.
If they were impressed with *that*, what did they make of the Book of Kells,
written in 800 AD? May I be permitted to boast a little?
About the Book of Kells
"The Work Not of Men but of Angels."
(Giraldus Cambrensis, c.1150 AD)
The Book of Kells is one of the most famous books in the history of the
world and was completed in about 800 AD.
The vellum (calfskin) manuscript contains transcriptions of the four
Gospels, lavishly illustrated and ornamented. It is the most elaborate
manuscript of its kind to survive from the early Middle Ages.
The scribes and artists who created the Book were Columban monks who lived
in a monastery on the remote island of Iona, off the west coast of Scotland.
The monastery was founded late in the sixth century by an Irish monk, St
Colm Cille.
At the time the book was produced, Irish monks were renowned throughout the
rest of Europe for their work as scribes and illustrators.
The Book of Kells contains 680 pages (or 340 folios). Just two of the pages
are without ornament, while about thirty folios, including some major
decorated pages, have been lost.
The Book is the most famous manuscript in the Library of Trinity College
Dublin where it is permanently on display.
<end>
Helen
>
> I agree with Roy that we're all citizens of the world - but who wants to
> live in a bland monoculture where downtown Hong Kong is the same as
downtown
> Dublin is the same downtown New York is the same as rural Iowa?
>
> Anton
>
>
PLAYROY1
live in a bland monoculture where downtown Hong Kong is the same as downtown
Dublin is the same downtown New York is the same as rural Iowa?
Anton >>
ROY: Careful Anton, saying the words, "I agree with Roy" could get you in big
trouble here. ;) But I'd like to add to your comment. My dream of a united
world is not to make us all exactly the same, but to emphasize or similiarities
and to be able to accept the differences in others. In a way, don't you think
that the USA is a good test case for a united world? Each state certainly has
its own culture as a New Yorker is very different from a Texan while at the
same time we share basic values. I may be wrong, but I believe there are
certain universal values most humans share, such as a love of peace and
freedom. The only folk I can think of who don't like freedom are the ones who
are keeping others captive and to me those folk are just plain evil.
PLAYROY1
doesn't beat his wife, "When did you start beating your wife?" The only thing
my son thinks is "different" about him is that he was born in Russia. He also
thinks it's "different" that his brother was born in Illinois, that I was born
in Georgia, and that his father was born in Pennsylvania. I honestly don't
think you even read what I wrote. Bugger off, you idiot. I have nothing more
to say to you.
Elizabeth
ROY: Then why did you begin your post with such a nasty comment to me when by
what you say here we are in complete agreement?
>>
Michelle
Probably because she doesn't like you spinning her post into something
straight out of your own imagination, and becasue the two of you are *not*
in complete agreement or anything remotely like it, which would be obvious
if you could read for content and not for sound bytes.
Michelle
KL
(PLAYROY1) writes:
OK, but why limit it there? Your last post said, "My dream is that some day
the world will only identify with being human." If this were true, then
wouldn't your statement above read, "I believe that no matter what race a child
is in the world, all the same rules apply. Humans come in all colors."?
Lainie Petersen
rkbose wrote:
>
>
> My kids don't speak *any* Indian language (we have four, potentially, but none of
> us speaks more than one). They like some Indian foods, but not necessarily the
> ones associated with their heritage. So far, I can't convince them they're missing
> anything, but I have got them to refrain from going "Ewww!"
I am as WASPy as can be, but I LOVE Indian food.
Lainie
PLAYROY1
Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001 6:57 PM
Message-id: <20011008225755...@nso-ml.aol.com>
ROY: Yes, but I thought we were talking about children who don't look white
adopted internationally to the USA. Sorry, if that was not the case, my
mistake, and you are absolutely right.
PLAYROY1
Date: Mon, Oct 8, 2001 4:51 PM
Message-id: <NSrw7.12804$3i3.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
ROY: Then why did you begin your post with such a nasty comment to me
when by
> what you say here we are in complete agreement?
Probably because she doesn't like you spinning her post into something
straight out of your own imagination, and becasue the two of you are *not*
in complete agreement or anything remotely like it, which would be obvious
if you could read for content and not for sound bytes.
Michelle
"PLAYROY1" <play...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011008201101...@mb-ch.aol.com...
> << Did you even read my post, Roy? Your "question" is like asking a man
who
> doesn't beat his wife, "When did you start beating your wife?" The only
thing
> my son thinks is "different" about him is that he was born in Russia.
ROY: Which totally supports and is exactly what I said in previous posts.
He
also
> thinks it's "different" that his brother was born in Illinois, that I was
born
> in Georgia, and that his father was born in Pennsylvania.
ROY: Which is exactly the point I made when I said my kids are from Russia and
my wife and I are from New Jersey.
I honestly
don't
> think you even read what I wrote. Bugger off, you idiot. I have nothing
more
> to say to you.
>ROY: Okay, Michelle, you're right here, I didn't call her names.
Kjs668
>I think as an adoptee I wish I had had more of my own birth-culture presented
>to me. I did have some, but I don't speak the language, and never learned to
>appreciate the food, and feel like I missed out on a huge part of something
>special.
>
>KL
I understand! I just found out that I'm part Wesh and part English. My
parents (or at least my mom) were told that I was all German. I've become a
little obsessed with all things UK lately.
Kjs668
>Date: 10/7/2001 8:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20011007203956...@nso-fx.aol.com>
>
>In article <20011007150232...@mb-fo.aol.com>, play...@aol.com
>(PLAYROY1) writes:
>
>><< Subject: Re: Should Akids bioCulture Be taught to them?
>>Date: Sun, Oct 7, 2001 5:40 AM
>>Message-id: <20011007084044...@mb-da.aol.com>
>>
>>place?
>>
>>ROY: It was not MY mind that was made up. After hearing others, I
>expressed
>>my opinion. But nobody has given any kind of compelling enough argument to
>>that a child born in New York and adopted by a family in Texas is any
>>different
>>culture are just as vast between states in the USA as they are between
>>countries outside of the USA.
>>
>>mom to Juliette, 5.5, adopted 2/4/98 from China
>>
>
>OK Roy, I was born, adopted, and raised in CA, and yet I would have been
>raised
>in a completely different culture if my birthparents had been married and
>kept
>me. I was raised as a caucasian american instead of as a mexican american,
>and
>there was a HUGE difference. And my birthfather lived in the same dang city
>I
>did. The differences in culture are vast in the same city, not just
>locations.
> I would have liked to have more of a mexican influence in my upbringing, but
>I
>honestly think my aparents were afraid of running into my bfather if they did
>that. So, I end up paying the price and losing out, by having less of a
>sense
>of identity. Because I know I am not as white as my aparents. Granted I am
>mixed. I am half white and half mexican, but that half mexican part is just
>as
>important, and isn't as easily concealed as some would think. It did me a
>great disservice to not introduce me to that culture. IMHO.....which is the
>only one that should count in my life......if you ask me....
>KL
>"You don't love someone because they are beautiful, they are beautiful
>because
>you love them." - Anon.
>
>
>
familiarize your children with the place where they hail from will not only
make your children feel honored (you care about them, you care about where they
are from), but it will give your children a sense of history, a connection to
their roots that they wouldn't have otherwise.
I'm certain that you care enough about their children to make them proud of
their heritage and proud to be your children.
Anton Sweeney
> << I agree with Roy that we're all citizens of the world - but who wants
to
> live in a bland monoculture where downtown Hong Kong is the same as
downtown
> Dublin is the same downtown New York is the same as rural Iowa?
>
> Anton >>
>
> ROY: Careful Anton, saying the words, "I agree with Roy" could get you in
big
> trouble here. ;)
So I've noticed :-)
> But I'd like to add to your comment. My dream of a united
> world is not to make us all exactly the same, but to emphasize or
similiarities
> and to be able to accept the differences in others.
Indeed. And Russian culture is *not* the same as (generic) American
culture. So teach your kids about the things unique to their original
culture and let them experience them firsthand where possible, while also
teaching them about their adopted culture (and, indeed, other cultures).
They'll thank you for it in the end.
Take language, for example. Damn hard for them to ever even try tracing if
they don't know a word of Russian.
> In a way, don't you think
> that the USA is a good test case for a united world? Each state certainly
has
> its own culture as a New Yorker is very different from a Texan while at
the
> same time we share basic values.
America has *lots* of intrinsic problems, too. I'd prefer more of a
European Union model if it weren't for the excess of bureaucracy and lack of
democracy and accountability.
> I may be wrong, but I believe there are
> certain universal values most humans share, such as a love of peace and
> freedom. The only folk I can think of who don't like freedom are the ones
who
> are keeping others captive and to me those folk are just plain evil.
Agreed again. This is becoming a habit!
Anton
helicon
"Anton Sweeney" <not@a_real_address_on.Usenet> wrote in message
Ahem, Anton. That is preeeeecisely what Roy is counting on!
Helen
>
> > In a way, don't you think
> > that the USA is a good test case for a united world? Each state
certainly
> has
> > its own culture as a New Yorker is very different from a Texan while at
> the
> > same time we share basic values.
>
> America has *lots* of intrinsic problems, too. I'd prefer more of a
> European Union model if it weren't for the excess of bureaucracy and lack
of
> democracy and accountability.
>
> > I may be wrong, but I believe there are
> > certain universal values most humans share, such as a love of peace and
> > freedom. The only folk I can think of who don't like freedom are the
ones
> who
> > are keeping others captive and to me those folk are just plain evil.
>
> Agreed again. This is becoming a habit!
>
> Anton
>
>
Anton Sweeney
"helicon" <hel...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:gKLw7.5684$w5.3...@news.indigo.ie...
>
> Ahem, Anton. That is preeeeecisely what Roy is counting on!
>
> Helen
>
Anton