Papon ...
incubus
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnak0glr.28it....@lievre.voute.net...
> The European Court of Human Rights has just rendered a judgement
> against France, in the case of Maurice Papon. M. Papon was
> the General Secretary of the Préfecture de la Gironde, during
> WWII, and in 1998, was sentenced to 10 years in gaol for his part
> in the deportation of dozens of Jews, to the Nazi death camps.
>
> The ECHR has decided that there was a major procedural error in the
> trial, as M. Papon was not afforded the benefit of 'presumption of
> innocence'.
>
> Bearing in mind that M. Papon is now 91 years old, and that the War
> ended almost sixty years ago, the question is ...
>
> Should Maurice Papon still be imprisoned ?
>
yes. He committed the crime. How long ago it was is irrelevant
incubus
> Le Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:00:09 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Should Maurice Papon still be imprisoned ?
>
> > yes. He committed the crime. How long ago it was is irrelevant
>
> old man, isn't in a position to harm anyone ?
he sent thousands of jews to thier deaths Desi. He should consider himself
lucky prison is all he is getting. Personally i would have him hanged, the
nazi monster
>
> As a Jew who lost some relatives in the gas chambers, I can understand
> the need for retribution, but ... 60 years après ?
Passage of time is irrelevent when the criminal still lives
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> desmond @ zeouane.org
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Papon ...
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:26:03 +0000
>
>The European Court of Human Rights has just rendered a judgement
>against France, in the case of Maurice Papon. M. Papon was
>the General Secretary of the Préfecture de la Gironde, during
>WWII, and in 1998, was sentenced to 10 years in gaol for his part
>in the deportation of dozens of Jews, to the Nazi death camps.
>
>The ECHR has decided that there was a major procedural error in the
>trial, as M. Papon was not afforded the benefit of 'presumption of
>innocence'.
>
>Bearing in mind that M. Papon is now 91 years old, and that the War
>ended almost sixty years ago, the question is ...
>
>Should Maurice Papon still be imprisoned ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Papon ...
>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 18:26:03 +0000
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Desi is afraid of his own words! He can be reached at des...@noos.fr or
des...@zeouane.org.
As everyone knows, only COWARDS forge posts yet don't allow their own to be
archived!
Now Desi, Tell us about the Baltimore County police.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Papon ...
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:21:30 +0000
>
>Le Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:10:30 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>>> >> Should Maurice Papon still be imprisoned ?
>
>>> > yes. He committed the crime. How long ago it was is irrelevant
>
>>> Isn't there room for mercy ? For the sure knowledge that this 91-year-
>>> old man, isn't in a position to harm anyone ?
>
>> he sent thousands of jews to thier deaths Desi. He should consider himself
>> lucky prison is all he is getting. Personally i would have him hanged, the
>> nazi monster
>
>The news tonight used the expression, 'des dizaines de Juifs ...' which
>means, 'tens of Jews'. I don't have the exact figure, and can't be
>arsed looking it up, but 'des dizaines' usually means below one hundred.
>Even if it is one, it is one too many, but let's not engage in hyperbole,
>by claiming 'thousands' ...
>
>>> As a Jew who lost some relatives in the gas chambers, I can understand
>>> the need for retribution, but ... 60 years après ?
>
>> Passage of time is irrelevent when the criminal still lives
>
>Normally, I would tend to agree ... but do you really think that gaol is
>the place for someone who killed 60 years ago, and who is now 91 ..?
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Papon ...
>Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2002 21:21:30 +0000
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Earl Evleth
Coughlan à pasdespa...@zeouane.org a écrit le 25/07/02 20:26 :
> Bearing in mind that M. Papon is now 91 years old, and that the War
> ended almost sixty years ago, the question is ...
>
> Should Maurice Papon still be imprisoned ?
Certainly not in the Santé, which like Fresnes is an old dirty prison. They
do have a VIP section at the Santé which even underlines more the poor
condition of this class of aged prisons. They have little or in some cases
no heat in the winter.
With Petain, they kept him until death at an old military prison on a island
off the coast of France. Papon was responsible for the death of a lot of
Jews with his "go along attitude" in signing the administrative papers
handing the Jews over to the Germans. He later was a member of the
resistance but in exactly what role escapes me. Donna, years ago wrote
and had published an article on Papon in the America magazine, the Republic,
she knows a lot more. Some of his victims who are still alive still want
him behind bars and that is how French justice works.
Badinter, who is Jewish, and led the battle for the abolition of the death
penalty, thinks the Papon is too old to keep in prison. The
theater of his conviction, stripped of honors, imprisonment has served its
purpose, enough is enough. But minimally he should not be kept in
basically inhumane conditions for a man of his age and poor health.
That dishonors us collectively.
The European Court decision is another issue. I have not read it yet but
French trials are pretty much set deals, 99+ conviction rates and if a
case reaches trial stage the accused is a cooked goose. That should
disturb the European judicial community generally and sometimes does.
Earl
Earl Evleth
Coughlan à pasdespa...@zeouane.org a écrit le 26/07/02 11:07 :
>> The European Court decision is another issue. I have not read it yet but
>> French trials are pretty much set deals, 99+ conviction rates and if a
>> case reaches trial stage the accused is a cooked goose.
>
> Unless your name ends in 'Straus-Kahn' ... ;-)
As in the US, election or financial fraud in France is treated with what
might call "infinite tolerance". The current president of France has a
number charges of corruption against him. Bush and Cheney were both
former corporate crooks. All are guilty, so off with their heads.
Papon, apparently was tried without presumption of innocence! What is new
in France? The trial was "theater", it often is anywhere but the French
have historically developed it to a fine art. Papon, of course was guilty
before the trial started, everybody thought so. Typically a French trial
is decided on the basis of the instruction dossier. What is presented in
court need not be all that is in the dossier. A French trial is essentially
a punishment phase trial.
Such trials also occur in the USA, in fact they are most frequent in death
penalty cases involving a particularly gruesome type of murder. This kind
of murder causes so much public outrage that the police and the prosecutor
have to come up with a sure fire suspect. To make it "sure fire" the
evidence is doctored, confessions are obtained, criminal informers are
engaged. The deal is packaged up and delivered up for trial, guilty and off
to death row.
If down stream something equivalent to the European Court occurs and the
"murderer" if found not guilty, then he is released and joins the other 101
others found innocent. Then it is time for Sharp to enter one stage to cry
"outrage". These plays always have on ham actor.
So it is theater, all the way.
Earl
incubus
> Le Thu, 25 Jul 2002 22:10:30 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> >> >> Should Maurice Papon still be imprisoned ?
>
> >> > yes. He committed the crime. How long ago it was is irrelevant
>
> >> Isn't there room for mercy ? For the sure knowledge that this 91-year-
> >> old man, isn't in a position to harm anyone ?
>
> > he sent thousands of jews to thier deaths Desi. He should consider
himself
> > lucky prison is all he is getting. Personally i would have him hanged,
the
> > nazi monster
>
> means, 'tens of Jews'. I don't have the exact figure, and can't be
> arsed looking it up, but 'des dizaines' usually means below one hundred.
> Even if it is one, it is one too many, but let's not engage in hyperbole,
> by claiming 'thousands' ...
Like you said. One is too many
if anyone else had killed tens of people then they would and should be in
prison or executed.
>
> >> As a Jew who lost some relatives in the gas chambers, I can understand
> >> the need for retribution, but ... 60 years après ?
>
> > Passage of time is irrelevent when the criminal still lives
>
> Normally, I would tend to agree ... but do you really think that gaol is
> the place for someone who killed 60 years ago, and who is now 91 ..?
yes, otherwise he would get away with it
Apokrif
> The European Court decision is another issue. I have not read it yet but
> French trials are pretty much set deals, 99+ conviction rates and if a
> case reaches trial stage the accused is a cooked goose. That should
> disturb the European judicial community generally and sometimes does.
In this case, it has little to do with what you mean with 'presumption
of
innocence'. Papon was sentenced by the criminal court (cour
d'Assises), and
during the trial he was free. Then he made an appeal to the Supreme
court (Cour
de cassation), but according to the Code of Criminal Procedure , he
had to
surrender to custody before the hearing at the Supreme court. In fact
he fled
to Switzerland (where he was arrested later), so the Supreme court
dismissed
his application.
Only this point was considered by the ECHR which said 'the applicant
had
suffered an excessive restriction of his right of access to a court,
and
therefore of his right to a fair trial'
(http://www.echr.coe.int/Eng/Press/2002/july/Paponjud25072002epress.htm)
But the ECHR did not question the fact that he was granted a fair
trial
when he was sentenced by the criminal court.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Papon ...
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:07:50 +0000
>
>Le Fri, 26 Jul 2002 08:32:41 +0200, Earl Evleth <evl...@wanadoo.fr> a écrit
>:
>
>> The European Court decision is another issue. I have not read it yet but
>> French trials are pretty much set deals, 99+ conviction rates and if a
>> case reaches trial stage the accused is a cooked goose.
>
>Unless your name ends in 'Straus-Kahn' ... ;-)
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Papon ...
>Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2002 09:07:50 +0000
>Organization: None
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