Florida Woman Executed
citizen
Florida Woman Executed
Associated Press
STARKE, Fla. -- Serial killer Aileen Wuornos was executed Wednesday,
more than a decade after she murdered six men along central Florida
highways while working as a prostitute.
Wuornos, 46, was pronounced dead from lethal injection at 9:47 a.m. in
Florida State Prison near Starke, said Jill Bratina, a spokeswoman for
Gov. Jeb Bush.
Wuornos, one of the nation's few female serial killers, had fired her
attorneys and dropped her appeals despite lingering questions over her
sanity.
Wuornos was sentenced to death six times for killing middle-aged men
in 1989 and 1990 and spent a decade on Florida's death row.
The death warrant was based on her first murder victim, Richard
Mallory, a Clearwater electronics shop owner whose body was found in
1989 in Volusia County.
During her 1992 murder trial, Wuornos testified that Mallory raped,
beat and sodomized her and that she killed him in self-defense. After
standing trial for Mallory's death, Wuornos pleaded guilty to five
other murders in Marion, Pasco and Dixie counties.
For years, Wuornos claimed she shot the men out of self-defense while
being raped and sodomized. Later, she recanted her claims, saying she
wanted to make peace with God.
"I’m one who seriously hates human life and would kill again," she
told the state Supreme Court.
Wuornos also claimed to have killed a seventh man. Her life story has
also spawned two movies, several books and the opera "Wournos," by
Carla Lucero, which debuted last year.
Wuornos gave her last media interview Tuesday to British producer Nick
Broomfield, who did a documentary on her in 1993, but she stormed out
after about 35 minutes, Broomfield said.
"My conclusion from the interview is, today we are executing someone
who is mad. Here is someone who has totally lost her mind," Broomfield
said Wednesday outside the prison.
Fort Lauderdale lawyer Raag Singhal wrote a letter to the state
Supreme Court last month expressing "grave doubts" about Wuornos’
mental condition. Gov. Jeb Bush issued a stay and ordered a mental
exam, but lifted the stay last week after three psychiatrists who
interviewed her concluded that she understood why she was being
executed.
State Attorney John Tanner, who watched psychiatrists interview her
for 30 minutes last week, said she was cognizant and lucid. "She knew
exactly what she was doing," Tanner said.
Wuornos joined Judy Buenoano as the only women Florida has executed
since resuming the death penalty in 1976. Fifty-one men have been
executed by Florida during that span.
The state Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected two efforts to stop the
execution, one from a private attorney in Tampa who expressed "serious
concerns" about Wuornos’ competency, the other from an Ohio group that
wanted to file an appeal on Wuornos’ behalf.
Billy Nolas, who represented Wuornos in her 1992 trial in Daytona
Beach, said she suffered from borderline personality disorder as a
result of neglect and sexual abuse as a child. He said she was "the
most disturbed individual I have represented."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Wed, Oct. 09, 2002
Aileen Wuornos, who killed 7 men, put to death at Florida State Prison
By PHIL LONG
Miami Herald
STARKE - Aileen Carol Wuornos, called the "Damsel of Death," was
executed voluntarily and peacefully by lethal injection Wednesday
morning, dying much more gently than any of the seven men she shot to
death a dozen years ago.
"She was extremely happy, ready to go. She has made her peace," said
Dawn Botkins, a long-time friend who spent three hours with Wuornos at
Florida State Prison late Tuesday night and will take her ashes back
to Michigan for burial.
The two women prayed together Tuesday night, Botkins said. She said
Wuornos, on her knees, prayed for the families of her seven victims
and asked forgiveness for the pain that she caused them.
She was pronounced dead at 9:47 a.m. said Jill Bratina, a spokeswoman
for Gov. Jeb Bush.
Wuornos, 46, hitchhiked the highways and interstates of North Central
Florida, where she robbed and murdered her middle-age victims over 13
months in 1989-90.
She was executed for the shooting death of Richard Mallory, 51, an
appliance store owner from Clearwater whose body was found near
Daytona Beach in 1991. Wuornos confessed to killing six other men,
including one whose body has never been found.
Wuornos, one of the nation's rare female serial killers, was only the
second woman to be executed in Florida and the second inmate to be put
to death in a week.
Wuornos voluntarily ended all appeals, saying she wanted to end a
tragic life of violence. She was abandoned at birth by her parents,
raped before she was a teen and gave birth to a son before she had a
driver's license.
Late Tuesday the Florida Supreme Court rejected last-minute appeals by
anti-death penalty activists who renewed claims that she was mentally
ill and should not be executed.
Last week, Wuornos passed the last of several competency tests - a
review by three psychiatrists who said that she met the standard of
understanding the meaning of the death penalty and knowing why it was
being given to her.
Wuornos didn't order a last meal and skipped the regular fare of
barbecued chicken, mashed potatoes, apple crisp and tea, Sterling
Ivey, a Department of Corrections spokesman, said.
Instead, Botkins said Wuornos ate a hamburger and other snack food
from the prison's canteen during their three-hour meeting. After the
visit with Botkins, she drank a cup of coffee and slept soundly from 1
a.m. to 5:30 a.m., then she awoke to a prison surrounded in fog and
drizzle.
She was in a good mood Wednesday morning, Ivey said.
Across the street from Florida State Prison, more than a dozen TV
satellite trucks and scores of news people gathered alongside
protesters with messages both for and against the death penalty.
Inside the fog-shrouded prison, after no last-minute reprieve and at
the warden's nod, an anonymous executioner pushed the plungers on
three needles sending a deadly concoction of muscle relaxants and
heart-stopping chemicals into Wuornos's veins until she stopped
breathing.
Botkins and Wuornos became friends during their high school days in
Michigan. They renewed their friendship after Wuornos was arrested in
1990, exchanging frequent letters. Wuornos wrote often to Botkins' two
children, warning them to live a more righteous life than she had.
Botkins also visited Wuornos in prison, sometimes twice a year.
Wuornos claimed to be an exit-to-exit hooker who worked the freeways
and back roads of North Central Florida.
Law enforcement investigators are not certain that all seven of the
men she killed picked her up for sex. In some cases, she may have
posed as a traveler in distress or as someone merely needing
directions.
Wuornos was an alcohol and drug abuser who robbed to make ends meet
and to get gifts for her lesbian lover, police said.
She died without saying what made her start killing men.
She was also one of a growing number of Death Row "volunteers,"
condemned people who want their sentences carried out.
Gov. Jeb Bush signed Wuornos's death warrant even though the state's
death penalty law is under review by the Florida Supreme Court. Two
other inmates have been issued stays of execution.
Wuornos was one of 52 women on Death Rows throughout the U.S. and one
of three in Florida. The other two are Anna Cardona, from Miami-Dade
County and Virginia Lazelere, from Volusia County.
In the past 100 years, 48 women have been executed in the United
States, according to the Death Penalty Information Center. The only
woman to be executed in Florida was Judy Buenoano on March 30, 1998.
------------------------------
Wuornos put to death, says 'I'll be back'
By HENRY FREDERICK
and ANNE GEGGIS
Staff writers
STARKE - Saying she was going to be with Jesus, serial killer Aileen
Carol Wuornos was put to death by lethal injection this morning in
front of 28 witnesses for half a dozen killings a decade ago.
The procedure began at 9:32 a.m., after the 46-year-old Wuornos,
strapped to a gurney, smiled briefly at the witnesses through a glass
window and said: "I'd just like to say I'm sailing with the Rock and
I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus - June 6 - like the
movie - big mother ship and all. I'll be back." The Rock is a Biblical
reference to Jesus.
Wuornos took one breath. Two minutes later her eyes closed and at 9:36
a.m., she didn't appear to be breathing.
Ten minutes passed with the only noise coming from an air conditioning
unit on the wall near where the witnesses sat, except for one woman in
the front row who shed a tear.
Then a doctor twice checked her vital signs and nodded his head. She
was pronounced dead at 9:47 a.m. Volusia County witnesses were State
Attorney John Tanner and Circuit Judge R. Michael Hutcheson who
presided over some of her post-conviction hearings.
Tanner later told a gathering of reporters at the Florida State Prison
gates that justice was served.
"I said a prayer for her and the victims and myself," Tanner said.
"This is a tough business. Lethal injection is certainly a more humane
way to terminate life."
Relatives of some of the victims said lethal injection was too easy
for Wuornos.
"I think she should have suffered a little more," said Terry Slay
Griffith, 39, of Citrus County, was whose father, Dick Humphrey was
among the men killed along Central and Notrh Florida interstates
between 1989 and 1990.
"It was too easy - one breath. It would have been (better) for smoke
to come out of her ears," Griffith said, saying she would have
preferred to see Wuornos executed in the electric chair. "She picked
lethal injection knowing it was peaceful."
Griffith said she had shed the tear for her father.
"Based on what she said today, proves to me she's off her rocker,"
Griffith said, referring to the mix of biblical passages and the
apparent reference by Wuornos to the popular sci-fi movie,
"Independence Day."
Opponents of the death penalty decried the execution carried out in
the name of taxpayers.
Nearly three dozen protestors carried signs that read, "Jeb -
Kevorkian," and "Jeb Bush: women and children first - on the gurney."
A dozen satellite trucks and dozens of reporters, photographers and
cameramen crowded around the media headquarters in a field across from
the prison. Crowds started to gather shortly after dawn and continued
until noon with live broadcast feeds across the nation.
LIST OF VICTIMS
Following is a list of victims killed by serial killer Aileen Wuornos:
Richard Mallory, 51, Clearwater electronics shop owner, body found
Dec. 13, 1989, in a junkyard.
David Spears, 43, Winter Garden construction worker, body found June
1, 1990, along Highway 19 in Citrus County.
Charles Carskaddon, 40, part-time rodeo worker, body found June 6,
1990, in Pasco County.
Troy Burress, 50, a sausage salesman from Ocala, was reported missing
July 31, 1990. Body found in Marion County.
Charles "Dick" Humphreys, 56, retired Air Force major, former police
chief and Florida state child abuse investigator, body found in Marion
County.
Walter Gino Antonio, body found on Nov. 19, 1990, in Dixie County.
Peter Siems, body never found, but Wuornos admits killing him.
___
RichardJ
Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
from indulging in low rent whores.
Teflon
John Rennie
"RichardJ" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a2a8a540.02101...@posting.google.com...
"She understood why she was being executed." Is that a normal standard
employed to determine sanity?
Desmond Coughlan
> Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
> a form of societal self defense.
Perhaps you'd care to define a) how a society can exercise 'self defence',
when societies don't have 'selves', Richard, and b) in what way this case
is 'self defence' ...
{ snip }
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org
Richard J
I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
the quote.
Teflon
Richard J
It is self defense for the members of that society, Desmond. I know
this is a difficult issue for those among us who do not consider
themselves part of society, but do try.
Teflon
Incubus
particularly if they kill him for it
>
> Teflon
Incubus
she said she hated humans yet all her targets were men. hmm
Incubus
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnaqb0or.api.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:59 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a
écrit :
>
> >> > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
> >> > a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
> >> > from indulging in low rent whores.
>
> >> employed to determine sanity?
>
> > I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
> > again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
> > the quote.
>
confessions
> that people make. Even if she were serious, she meant that she would
> kill again if released. The answer is simple: don't release her. She
> spent more than ten years in gaol without harming a single person.
>
> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
no it was justice.
Jürgen
Incubus schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
>news:slrnaqb0or.api.p...@lievre.voute.net...
>> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:59 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a
>écrit :
>>
>> >> > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used
as
>> >> > a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
>> >> > from indulging in low rent whores.
>>
>> >> "She understood why she was being executed." Is that a normal
standard
>> >> employed to determine sanity?
>>
>> > I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
>> > again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
>> > the quote.
>>
>> Which objectively, means nothing. Consider the number of false
>confessions
>> that people make. Even if she were serious, she meant that she would
>> kill again if released. The answer is simple: don't release her. She
>> spent more than ten years in gaol without harming a single person.
>>
>> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
>> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
>no it was justice.
>>
Define and determine justice for all who are involved in or stroken by a
murder-case.
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:59 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> >> > a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
> >> > from indulging in low rent whores.
>
> >> employed to determine sanity?
>
> > I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
> > again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
> > the quote.
>
> that people make. Even if she were serious, she meant that she would
> kill again if released. The answer is simple: don't release her. She
> spent more than ten years in gaol without harming a single person.
>
> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Retribution is one part of the criminal process, Desmond. The basic
principal is that the person violating the law must pay a price for
doing so. In some instances, we who believe in the death penalty
believe that penalty is forfeiture of their life.
I do not believe that is the only, or even the best reason, to use the
death penalty. It is, however, one reason we have a legal system and
courts. In all honesty, if retribution were the only reason, the best
thing which could then be done with this murdering whore (literally a
whore) would be to lock he in a tiny cell, alone, for the remainder of
her natural life, allowing her out only to take baths every other day.
Teflon
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:56 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> > no it was justice.
>
> the net result of which, is that it has no real meaning at all. Just
> as language needs laws to which we adhere in order that our words be
> understandable to those with whom we communicate, so 'justice' needs
> to be defined if we are to have any hope of arriving at a consensus.
>
> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless as
> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Justice, in the legal sense has three basic reasons for existence:
retribution, protection of society from criminals, and deterrence. It
is the fair application of the social mores of a given society in the
forms of law. Justice, like beauty, is in the eyes of the beholder.
It varies from society to society. It is not, as you would have us
think, an elementally universal concept recognized the same by everyone
around the World.
Teflon
Richard J
Et Tu, Brutus.
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:20:16 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Perhaps you'd care to define a) how a society can exercise 'self defence',
> >> when societies don't have 'selves', Richard, and b) in what way this case
> >> is 'self defence' ...
>
> > this is a difficult issue for those among us who do not consider
> > themselves part of society, but do try.
>
>
> That aside, Richard, how can self defence take place ten years after the
> act ?
>
> If my wife gets mugged, and I wait ten years to kill the fucker who
> touched her (I wouldn't wait 15 seconds, but that's by the by), would
> you consider that I was 'defending' her ?
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
The acts of an individual and the legal actions of a society are two
completely different things, Desmond. For the major point, however,
your individual act would only require your decision. Society's act
requires a majority decision and representative agreement prior to the
act. Since societies are made up of many different people, the
safeguards are extensive to make sure ALL such decisions are as error
free as possible. That takes time.
Teflon
Richard J
Now a days, the expression that "Strange pussy can kill you!" has a
whole new meaning, what with AIDS and murder.
Teflon
JIGSAW1695
From: Desmond Coughlan pasdespa...@zeouane.org
Date: 10/10/2002 9:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <slrnaqb0or.api.p...@lievre.voute.net>
Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:59 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>> > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
>> > a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
>> > from indulging in low rent whores.
>> "She understood why she was being executed." Is that a normal standard
>> employed to determine sanity?
> I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
> again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
> the quote.
Which objectively, means nothing. Consider the number of false confessions
that people make. Even if she were serious, she meant that she would
kill again if released. The answer is simple: don't release her. She
spent more than ten years in gaol without harming a single person.
No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1
===============================
Actually, it was for punishment. She murdered six people (that we know of).
Jigsaw
John Rennie
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3DA59279...@hotmail.com...
I think we can happily dispense with protection of society from criminals
and deterrence. Both of these are covered by long periods of imprisonment
not the average 8 years of so meted out to the average murderer in the USA.
So we are left with retribution or justice or vengeance - it is M'lud in my
learned opinion impossible to separate these three. Frankly I think a
period of long imprisonment should also satisfy those who require
justice/retribution/vengeance.
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:56 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> > no it was justice.
>
> the net result of which, is that it has no real meaning at all. Just
> as language needs laws to which we adhere in order that our words be
> understandable to those with whom we communicate, so 'justice' needs
> to be defined if we are to have any hope of arriving at a consensus.
>
> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless as
> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
have you finished? I was dozing off :-) "Beauty", "love" and "hate" are not
your terms. Nobody owns these concepts. Justice is an equaliser. It brings
some right to something that is wrong. It shows the victim there is hope and
that people can not get away with malicious acts against the innocent
Incubus
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:pNgp9.3098$fV4.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
then comes the problem. The victum is dead and the murderer lives
>
>
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:45:13 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a
écrit :
>
> >> >> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self
defence',
> >> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> >> > no it was justice.
>
> >> The problem is that 'justice' means different things to different
people,
> >> the net result of which, is that it has no real meaning at all. Just
> >> as language needs laws to which we adhere in order that our words be
> >> understandable to those with whom we communicate, so 'justice' needs
> >> to be defined if we are to have any hope of arriving at a consensus.
> >>
> >> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless
as
> >> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
>
> > retribution, protection of society from criminals, and deterrence.
>
> exist if the judged, are treated unfairly. Contrary to what the
> hijackers of the term, like JFA would have us believe, 'justice' does
> not belong to the 'judges'. For justice to be executed fairly (let us
> not forget that the word 'just' forms part of it), those who are judged,
> must be treated with dignity, fairness, and with the utmost respect for
> their natural and wholly inalienable rights, which include the right to
> life.
which they lose when the take way some else's "right to life" ini america
>
> Consider a system where a car driver who 'runs' (sic) a red traffic
> light, is put to death. Would this be 'justice' ?
no
>Certainly the
> driver would suffer a great deal. Certainly, he would never reoffend.
> However, would this be 'justice' ? I feel confident that most thinking
> people and even a few retentionists, would consider this sentence
'unjust',
> and excessive.
try "all" retentionists.
>
> Which is why I stated in a previous follow-up to incubus, that 'justice'
> doesn't really mean much, as long as we can't arrive at a consensus.
consesuses rarely exist. opinions vary about almost everythng
>I for one am happy that my country does not put people to death, and that
> the obscenity that is capital punishment is not and never again will be,
> a shameful stain on the French criminal justice system.
there is nothing shameful about capital punishment. Maybe madam guillotine
will show her head on your shores again one day. I hope they reintroduce
capital punishment here too.
>
> Vive la France !
>
> { snip }
Incubus
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:ao429t$dcv$05$1...@news.t-online.com...
I already have somewhere in this thread
>
>
John Rennie
"Incubus" <inc...@river.styx> wrote in message
news:1ehp9.404$4r1....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
The victim is dead no matter what the sentence. As for the so called
'closure' that the death of the murderer brings I can only cite the
expressed feelings of British parents and others who have seen the murderer
of their child or loved ones sent to prison for the rest of lives. The
majority, not all, tend to feel satisfied - they are not satisfied when a
drunken driver is only given four years
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:40:39 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> > principal is that the person violating the law must pay a price for
> > doing so. In some instances, we who believe in the death penalty
> > believe that penalty is forfeiture of their life.
>
> John will be kind enough to dig into his intercranial database, and tell
> me who said that, as I'm damned if I can recall ...
>
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
I spoke nothing of the urge to punish, but why we have courts and
justice systems to begin with. Ask any professor of law and he will
basically say the sam thing I did. Did you think trials were not about
retribution, punishment for the crime committed, as well as other
things?
Teflon
Richard J
> >> touched her (I wouldn't wait 15 seconds, but that's by the by), would
> >> you consider that I was 'defending' her ?
>
> > completely different things, Desmond.
>
> Richard, and in that respect, we have 'governments for the people, by
> the people' (after a fashion).
>
> In the United States and France, prosecutions are not done in the name
> of a parasitic monarchy, or 'crown', but in the name of the people. The
> state ... 'l'état' in France.
>
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
That is correct, but the major difference is instead of representing
only one person as you would be doing if you exacted retribution, the
state acts for all. ?The state, then, is in a continual balancing act
attempting to meet the needs and wishes of a majority of its citizens in
a democratic republic. Too bad that we cannot use out technological
wonders to form true democracies and give the power directly to the
people, but things just don't work out that way. Besides, how would the
politicians survive?
Teflon
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:50:36 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> >> > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
> >> > a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
> >> > from indulging in low rent whores.
>
> >> particularly if they kill him for it
>
> > whole new meaning, what with AIDS and murder.
>
>
> Miaow.
>
> --
> the rev toutou
> toutou @ zeouane . org
> |the lord is my shephard, i shall not give a fuck
> |visit my and don kool's church ... http://www.ulc.org/
> |and my own site http://www.zeouane.org/toutou/
It's the expression. Would you rather I said vagina, or snatch?
Perhaps cunt would be more to your liking.
Teflon
John Rennie
"Richard J" <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3DA5B82A...@hotmail.com...
Now, now Richard - we all know you have a strong urge to punish, you have
demonstrated that several times here.
Incubus
I would not be so content. If someone murders my child i would no way be
satisfied with prison.
Though i do agree with you about the drunk drivers. Particularly if the
driver kills someone
>
>
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:36:38 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> I believe that there is a fourth criterion, Richard. Justice cannot
> >> exist if the judged, are treated unfairly. Contrary to what the
> >> hijackers of the term, like JFA would have us believe, 'justice' does
> >> not belong to the 'judges'. For justice to be executed fairly (let us
> >> not forget that the word 'just' forms part of it), those who are
judged,
> >> must be treated with dignity, fairness, and with the utmost respect for
> >> their natural and wholly inalienable rights, which include the right to
> >> life.
>
> > which they lose when the take way some else's "right to life" ini
america
>
yes it can when someone takes it from you
Like a murderer
>
> { snip rest 'cos I'm off to watch the 'JT' }
Jürgen
Richard J
At least I don't feel the strong urge to be punished.
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:31:02 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> >> and what exactly is that supposed to mean? is AADP full of 'catists' now?
>
> > Perhaps cunt would be more to your liking.
>
> time to "get any"...fuck 'im ..
>
> --
> the rev toutou
> toutou @ zeouane . org
> |the lord is my shephard, i shall not give a fuck
> |visit my and don kool's church ... http://www.ulc.org/
> |and my own site http://www.zeouane.org/toutou/
I'm surprised he hasn't cut your nuts out as well.
John Rennie
"Incubus" <inc...@river.styx> wrote in message
A peculiar reaction especially with regard to the drunken driver.
Obviously he has killed someone or I would not mention
'closure'. Equally obviously he would not be sentenced to die
in most countries including the USA. He has killed just as surely
as a child murderer has killed but we all accept that he should
stay alive. In the UK at least, far more children are killed by
drunk drivers than are murdered and as long as the DD receives
a reasonable sentence, at least 8 years, we accept their
continued existence. If you were a British citizen ( we
all are by act of Parliament 1948, Desmond) you would accept
imprisonment, long term imprisonment, for the murderer of your
child just as you would imprisonment should s/he be killed
by a drunken motorist.
John Rennie
And I was going to introduce you to the delights of alt.bondage too.
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:49 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> The victim is dead no matter what the sentence. As for the so called
> >> 'closure' that the death of the murderer brings I can only cite the
> >> expressed feelings of British parents and others who have seen the
> > murderer
> >> of their child or loved ones sent to prison for the rest of lives. The
> >> majority, not all, tend to feel satisfied - they are not satisfied when
a
> >> drunken driver is only given four years
>
> > I would not be so content. If someone murders my child i would no way be
> > satisfied with prison.
>
and justice. QED
Incubus
I am a british citizen and i would only "accept" prison because we don't
have the death penalty but i would not beleive that my child has received
justice
>
>
Incubus
NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:55:48
Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnaqbhl2.c7j.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:27:46 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> > which they lose when the take way some else's "right to life" ini
> > america
>
> >> An inalienable right cannot be 'lost', incubus.
>
> > yes it can when someone takes it from you
> >
> > Like a murderer
>
> No, incubus, the right is 'violated', it is not 'lost'. Otherwise,
> there would be prosecution of the murderer.
>
> Try to pay attention, son.
you are mincing with words. the murderer takes a life hence should forfiet
the right to his own. The existence of the death penalty means the right to
life i not inalienable. Pay attention boy.
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:39:11 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless
as
> >> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
>
> > have you finished? I was dozing off :-) "Beauty", "love" and "hate" are
not
> > your terms. Nobody owns these concepts. Justice is an equaliser. It
brings
> > some right to something that is wrong. It shows the victim there is hope
and
> > that people can not get away with malicious acts against the innocent
>
> and 'yours' as 'justice'. 'Beauty', 'love', and 'hate' were just to
> illustrate my point.
justice and vengence are not the same thing
John Rennie
"Incubus" <inc...@river.styx> wrote in message
Your child would not longer be in a position to receive anything.
It is you that feels justice/retribution/vengeance has not been met.
John Rennie
"Incubus" <inc...@river.styx> wrote in message
>
> "Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnaqbcvr.c0t.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> > Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:39:11 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a
écrit
> :
> >
> > { snip }
> >
> > >> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless
> as
> > >> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
> >
> > > have you finished? I was dozing off :-) "Beauty", "love" and "hate"
are
> not
> > > your terms. Nobody owns these concepts. Justice is an equaliser. It
> brings
> > > some right to something that is wrong. It shows the victim there is
hope
> and
> > > that people can not get away with malicious acts against the innocent
> >
> > Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I defined 'my' term as
'vengeance',
> > and 'yours' as 'justice'. 'Beauty', 'love', and 'hate' were just to
> > illustrate my point.
>
> justice and vengence are not the same thing
I say they are, as is retribution. That doesn't mean that I demean
justice,I just don't want a fancy dress for it.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> Desmond Coughlan wrote:
> >
> > Le 10 Oct 2002 05:31:33 -0700, RichardJ <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
> >
> > > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
> > > a form of societal self defense.
> >
> > Perhaps you'd care to define a) how a society can exercise 'self
> > defence',
> > when societies don't have 'selves', Richard, and b) in what way this
> > case
> > is 'self defence' ...
> >
> > { snip }
> >
> > --
> > Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> > desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> > http: // www . zeouane . org
>
> It is self defense for the members of that society, Desmond. I know
> this is a difficult issue for those among us who do not consider
> themselves part of society, but do try.
No, Richard. It is just punishment. Not for the horrible murders but
the completely fatuous final statement that she made:
"I'd just like to say I'm sailing with the Rock and I'll be back like
INDEPENDENCE DAY with Jesus, June 6, like the movieg mother ship and
all. I'll be back."
Bugger me senseless! Lethal injection's too good for them.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> Justice, in the legal sense has three basic reasons for existence:
> retribution, protection of society from criminals, and deterrence.
In a philosophical sense, punishment has four (possible) purposes:
- retribution
- protection of society from criminals
- deterrence
- rehabilitation
They are all, IMHO, reasonable ideas and my ideal society would punish
with a combination of all four ideas in mind. The DP can be justified
in terms of any or all of the first three ideas. Would retentionists
like to take a stab at which is not only an erroneous justification but
also, very likely, morally abhorrent to most right-thinking people?
Think carefully before you answer. It is a question that I expect most
abolitionists to get very, very wrong as well.
Richard J
>
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:29:32 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> >> >> If my wife gets mugged, and I wait ten years to kill the fucker who
> >> >> touched her (I wouldn't wait 15 seconds, but that's by the by), would
> >> >> you consider that I was 'defending' her ?
>
> >> > The acts of an individual and the legal actions of a society are two
> >> > completely different things, Desmond.
>
> >> To a certain extent, yes. However, you and I are citizens of republics,
> >> Richard, and in that respect, we have 'governments for the people, by
> >> the people' (after a fashion).
> >>
> >> In the United States and France, prosecutions are not done in the name
> >> of a parasitic monarchy, or 'crown', but in the name of the people. The
> >> state ... 'l'état' in France.
>
> > only one person as you would be doing if you exacted retribution, the
> > state acts for all.
>
> _is_ the people. When the republic kills, it kills in the name of the
> people. The _people_ kill.
That is true. And what a republic does is determined by the
representatives of the people who, because they are elected by majority
vote, act on the majority opinion of their citizens most of the time.
>
> Aside from that, a question that has always puzzled me, and to which I
> have yet to receive a satisfactory answer, is: if a killing carried out
> by one person is wrong, why is a killing carried out by several million,
> 'right' ? Is it a question of numbers ? Is the 'collective guilt'
> divided by millions, to the point where it is negligible ? What about
> a hundred people who kill ? Is their 'guilt' divided by 100, and so their
> punishment should also be divided by 100 ? When a thousand people kill,
> is their 'guilt' divided by 1000 ? At what point does the collective
> 'guilt' become sufficiently 'diluted' so that no killing is justified ?
Killing a human being is called homicide. Homicide may be either
justified or unjustified. Your problem is that you apparently are not
differentiating between murder and homicide. Homicide, the killing of a
human being, occurs all the time. Often it is accidental, in which case
there is no justification or lack thereof. It just is. In other
instances, such as self defense, in war, and in some societies
executions, homicide is usually deemed justified. With murder, however,
killing is deemed unjustified. All human deaths are homicides,
Desmond. Only the unjustified act of taking another human's life
without cause is considered murder.
>
> ?The state, then, is in a continual balancing act
> > attempting to meet the needs and wishes of a majority of its citizens in
> > a democratic republic. Too bad that we cannot use out technological
> > wonders to form true democracies and give the power directly to the
> > people, but things just don't work out that way. Besides, how would the
> > politicians survive?
>
> Do not confuse democracies and republics, Richard.
I'm not, Desmond. The US is, nominally, a democratic republic. I'm not
even sure there is a true democracy in modern government, although I
guess the Swiss come closest to it.
Teflon
Joey
> Wednesday, October 9, 2002
>
> Florida Woman Executed
> Associated Press
>
> STARKE, Fla. -- Serial killer Aileen Wuornos was executed Wednesday,
> more than a decade after she murdered six men along central Florida
> highways while working as a prostitute.
>
> Wuornos, 46, was pronounced dead from lethal injection at 9:47 a.m. in
> Florida State Prison near Starke, said Jill Bratina, a spokeswoman for
> Gov. Jeb Bush.
>
> Wuornos, one of the nation's few female serial killers, had fired her
> attorneys and dropped her appeals despite lingering questions over her
> sanity.
>
> Wuornos was sentenced to death six times for killing middle-aged men
> in 1989 and 1990 and spent a decade on Florida's death row.
>
> The death warrant was based on her first murder victim, Richard
> Mallory, a Clearwater electronics shop owner whose body was found in
> 1989 in Volusia County.
>
> During her 1992 murder trial, Wuornos testified that Mallory raped,
> beat and sodomized her and that she killed him in self-defense. After
> standing trial for Mallory's death, Wuornos pleaded guilty to five
> other murders in Marion, Pasco and Dixie counties.
>
> For years, Wuornos claimed she shot the men out of self-defense while
> being raped and sodomized. Later, she recanted her claims, saying she
> wanted to make peace with God.
>
> "I'm one who seriously hates human life and would kill again," she
> told the state Supreme Court.
>
> Wuornos also claimed to have killed a seventh man. Her life story has
> also spawned two movies, several books and the opera "Wournos," by
> Carla Lucero, which debuted last year.
>
> Wuornos gave her last media interview Tuesday to British producer Nick
> Broomfield, who did a documentary on her in 1993, but she stormed out
> after about 35 minutes, Broomfield said.
>
> "My conclusion from the interview is, today we are executing someone
> who is mad. Here is someone who has totally lost her mind," Broomfield
> said Wednesday outside the prison.
>
> Fort Lauderdale lawyer Raag Singhal wrote a letter to the state
> Supreme Court last month expressing "grave doubts" about Wuornos'
> mental condition. Gov. Jeb Bush issued a stay and ordered a mental
> exam, but lifted the stay last week after three psychiatrists who
> interviewed her concluded that she understood why she was being
> executed.
>
> State Attorney John Tanner, who watched psychiatrists interview her
> for 30 minutes last week, said she was cognizant and lucid. "She knew
> exactly what she was doing," Tanner said.
>
> Wuornos joined Judy Buenoano as the only women Florida has executed
> since resuming the death penalty in 1976. Fifty-one men have been
> executed by Florida during that span.
>
> The state Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected two efforts to stop the
> execution, one from a private attorney in Tampa who expressed "serious
> concerns" about Wuornos' competency, the other from an Ohio group that
> wanted to file an appeal on Wuornos' behalf.
>
> Billy Nolas, who represented Wuornos in her 1992 trial in Daytona
> Beach, said she suffered from borderline personality disorder as a
> result of neglect and sexual abuse as a child. He said she was "the
> most disturbed individual I have represented."
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Wed, Oct. 09, 2002
>
> Aileen Wuornos, who killed 7 men, put to death at Florida State Prison
> By PHIL LONG
> Miami Herald
>
> STARKE - Aileen Carol Wuornos, called the "Damsel of Death," was
> executed voluntarily and peacefully by lethal injection Wednesday
> morning, dying much more gently than any of the seven men she shot to
> death a dozen years ago.
>
> "She was extremely happy, ready to go. She has made her peace," said
> Dawn Botkins, a long-time friend who spent three hours with Wuornos at
> Florida State Prison late Tuesday night and will take her ashes back
> to Michigan for burial.
>
> The two women prayed together Tuesday night, Botkins said. She said
> Wuornos, on her knees, prayed for the families of her seven victims
> and asked forgiveness for the pain that she caused them.
>
> She was pronounced dead at 9:47 a.m. said Jill Bratina, a spokeswoman
> for Gov. Jeb Bush.
>
> Wuornos, 46, hitchhiked the highways and interstates of North Central
> Florida, where she robbed and murdered her middle-age victims over 13
> months in 1989-90.
>
> She was executed for the shooting death of Richard Mallory, 51, an
> appliance store owner from Clearwater whose body was found near
> Daytona Beach in 1991. Wuornos confessed to killing six other men,
> including one whose body has never been found.
>
> Wuornos, one of the nation's rare female serial killers, was only the
> second woman to be executed in Florida and the second inmate to be put
> to death in a week.
>
> Wuornos voluntarily ended all appeals, saying she wanted to end a
> tragic life of violence. She was abandoned at birth by her parents,
> raped before she was a teen and gave birth to a son before she had a
> driver's license.
>
> Late Tuesday the Florida Supreme Court rejected last-minute appeals by
> anti-death penalty activists who renewed claims that she was mentally
> ill and should not be executed.
>
> Last week, Wuornos passed the last of several competency tests - a
> review by three psychiatrists who said that she met the standard of
> understanding the meaning of the death penalty and knowing why it was
> being given to her.
>
> Wuornos didn't order a last meal and skipped the regular fare of
> barbecued chicken, mashed potatoes, apple crisp and tea, Sterling
> Ivey, a Department of Corrections spokesman, said.
>
> Instead, Botkins said Wuornos ate a hamburger and other snack food
> from the prison's canteen during their three-hour meeting. After the
> visit with Botkins, she drank a cup of coffee and slept soundly from 1
> a.m. to 5:30 a.m., then she awoke to a prison surrounded in fog and
> drizzle.
>
> She was in a good mood Wednesday morning, Ivey said.
>
> Across the street from Florida State Prison, more than a dozen TV
> satellite trucks and scores of news people gathered alongside
> protesters with messages both for and against the death penalty.
>
> Inside the fog-shrouded prison, after no last-minute reprieve and at
> the warden's nod, an anonymous executioner pushed the plungers on
> three needles sending a deadly concoction of muscle relaxants and
> heart-stopping chemicals into Wuornos's veins until she stopped
> breathing.
>
> Botkins and Wuornos became friends during their high school days in
> Michigan. They renewed their friendship after Wuornos was arrested in
> 1990, exchanging frequent letters. Wuornos wrote often to Botkins' two
> children, warning them to live a more righteous life than she had.
> Botkins also visited Wuornos in prison, sometimes twice a year.
>
> Wuornos claimed to be an exit-to-exit hooker who worked the freeways
> and back roads of North Central Florida.
>
> Law enforcement investigators are not certain that all seven of the
> men she killed picked her up for sex. In some cases, she may have
> posed as a traveler in distress or as someone merely needing
> directions.
>
> Wuornos was an alcohol and drug abuser who robbed to make ends meet
> and to get gifts for her lesbian lover, police said.
>
> She died without saying what made her start killing men.
>
> She was also one of a growing number of Death Row "volunteers,"
> condemned people who want their sentences carried out.
>
> Gov. Jeb Bush signed Wuornos's death warrant even though the state's
> death penalty law is under review by the Florida Supreme Court. Two
> other inmates have been issued stays of execution.
>
> Wuornos was one of 52 women on Death Rows throughout the U.S. and one
> of three in Florida. The other two are Anna Cardona, from Miami-Dade
> County and Virginia Lazelere, from Volusia County.
>
> In the past 100 years, 48 women have been executed in the United
> States, according to the Death Penalty Information Center. The only
> woman to be executed in Florida was Judy Buenoano on March 30, 1998.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Wuornos put to death, says 'I'll be back'
> By HENRY FREDERICK
> and ANNE GEGGIS
> Staff writers
>
> STARKE - Saying she was going to be with Jesus, serial killer Aileen
> Carol Wuornos was put to death by lethal injection this morning in
> front of 28 witnesses for half a dozen killings a decade ago.
>
> The procedure began at 9:32 a.m., after the 46-year-old Wuornos,
> strapped to a gurney, smiled briefly at the witnesses through a glass
> window and said: "I'd just like to say I'm sailing with the Rock and
> I'll be back like Independence Day with Jesus - June 6 - like the
> movie - big mother ship and all. I'll be back." The Rock is a Biblical
> reference to Jesus.
>
> Wuornos took one breath. Two minutes later her eyes closed and at 9:36
> a.m., she didn't appear to be breathing.
>
> Ten minutes passed with the only noise coming from an air conditioning
> unit on the wall near where the witnesses sat, except for one woman in
> the front row who shed a tear.
>
> Then a doctor twice checked her vital signs and nodded his head. She
> was pronounced dead at 9:47 a.m. Volusia County witnesses were State
> Attorney John Tanner and Circuit Judge R. Michael Hutcheson who
> presided over some of her post-conviction hearings.
>
> Tanner later told a gathering of reporters at the Florida State Prison
> gates that justice was served.
>
> "I said a prayer for her and the victims and myself," Tanner said.
> "This is a tough business. Lethal injection is certainly a more humane
> way to terminate life."
>
> Relatives of some of the victims said lethal injection was too easy
> for Wuornos.
>
> "I think she should have suffered a little more," said Terry Slay
> Griffith, 39, of Citrus County, was whose father, Dick Humphrey was
> among the men killed along Central and Notrh Florida interstates
> between 1989 and 1990.
>
> "It was too easy - one breath. It would have been (better) for smoke
> to come out of her ears," Griffith said, saying she would have
> preferred to see Wuornos executed in the electric chair. "She picked
> lethal injection knowing it was peaceful."
>
> Griffith said she had shed the tear for her father.
>
> "Based on what she said today, proves to me she's off her rocker,"
> Griffith said, referring to the mix of biblical passages and the
> apparent reference by Wuornos to the popular sci-fi movie,
> "Independence Day."
>
> Opponents of the death penalty decried the execution carried out in
> the name of taxpayers.
>
> Nearly three dozen protestors carried signs that read, "Jeb -
> Kevorkian," and "Jeb Bush: women and children first - on the gurney."
> A dozen satellite trucks and dozens of reporters, photographers and
> cameramen crowded around the media headquarters in a field across from
> the prison. Crowds started to gather shortly after dawn and continued
> until noon with live broadcast feeds across the nation.
>
> LIST OF VICTIMS
> Following is a list of victims killed by serial killer Aileen Wuornos:
>
> Richard Mallory, 51, Clearwater electronics shop owner, body found
> Dec. 13, 1989, in a junkyard.
>
> David Spears, 43, Winter Garden construction worker, body found June
> 1, 1990, along Highway 19 in Citrus County.
>
> Charles Carskaddon, 40, part-time rodeo worker, body found June 6,
> 1990, in Pasco County.
>
> Troy Burress, 50, a sausage salesman from Ocala, was reported missing
> July 31, 1990. Body found in Marion County.
>
> Charles "Dick" Humphreys, 56, retired Air Force major, former police
> chief and Florida state child abuse investigator, body found in Marion
> County.
>
> Walter Gino Antonio, body found on Nov. 19, 1990, in Dixie County.
>
> Peter Siems, body never found, but Wuornos admits killing him.
Isn't independence day July 4?
A quote from a witness to Aileen Wuornos' execution: Terri Griffith,
the daughter of former Police Chief Charles "Dick" Humphreys, who was
killed by Wuornos, witnessed the execution and said, "As far as I'm
concerned, I think she should have suffered a little bit more, but I'm
glad it's over. As far as I'm concerned, yeah, that would have been
enough for her to kick and maybe smoke come out of her ears."
Damn! Isn't it enough that she was put to death! Looks like this
country is fast becomming a nation of barbarians! Yeah....this country
sure needs peace, love, and understanding......and a good swift kick
in the ass!
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:46 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> > I would not be so content. If someone murders my child i would no way
be
> >> > satisfied with prison.
>
> >> 'Vengeance'. QED.
>
> > and justice. QED
>
> repost of what you have previously said, followed by 'QED'.
you started it :-P
Incubus
exactly
>
>
>
Incubus
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:30:27 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> I am a british citizen and i would only "accept" prison because we
don't
> >> have the death penalty but i would not beleive that my child has
received
> >> justice
>
> > Your child would not longer be in a position to receive anything.
>
>
> { snip }
troll
Incubus
And i say they are not. Justice has guidline, vengence does not. We have
already gone through this. I am not going through it again
>
>
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
Date: 10 Oct 2002 13:13:39 GMT
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Le 10 Oct 2002 05:31:33 -0700, RichardJ <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
> Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
> a form of societal self defense.
Perhaps you'd care to define a) how a society can exercise 'self defence',
when societies don't have 'selves', Richard, and b) in what way this case
is 'self defence' ...
{ snip }
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org
The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:20:16 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> Perhaps you'd care to define a) how a society can exercise 'self defence',
>> when societies don't have 'selves', Richard, and b) in what way this case
>> is 'self defence' ...
> It is self defense for the members of that society, Desmond. I know
> this is a difficult issue for those among us who do not consider
> themselves part of society, but do try.
Ouch ...
That aside, Richard, how can self defence take place ten years after the
act ?
If my wife gets mugged, and I wait ten years to kill the fucker who
touched her (I wouldn't wait 15 seconds, but that's by the by), would
you consider that I was 'defending' her ?
--
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:56 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
>> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
> no it was justice.
The problem is that 'justice' means different things to different people,
the net result of which, is that it has no real meaning at all. Just
as language needs laws to which we adhere in order that our words be
understandable to those with whom we communicate, so 'justice' needs
to be defined if we are to have any hope of arriving at a consensus.
'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless as
'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
--
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:40:39 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
>> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
> Retribution is one part of the criminal process, Desmond. The basic
> principal is that the person violating the law must pay a price for
> doing so. In some instances, we who believe in the death penalty
> believe that penalty is forfeiture of their life.
I am personally wary of those in whom the urge to punish is strong. Now
John will be kind enough to dig into his intercranial database, and tell
me who said that, as I'm damned if I can recall ...
{ snip }
--
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:49:19 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> If my wife gets mugged, and I wait ten years to kill the fucker who
>> touched her (I wouldn't wait 15 seconds, but that's by the by), would
>> you consider that I was 'defending' her ?
> The acts of an individual and the legal actions of a society are two
> completely different things, Desmond.
To a certain extent, yes. However, you and I are citizens of republics,
Richard, and in that respect, we have 'governments for the people, by
the people' (after a fashion).
In the United States and France, prosecutions are not done in the name
of a parasitic monarchy, or 'crown', but in the name of the people. The
state ... 'l'état' in France.
{ snip }
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:39:11 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless as
>> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
> have you finished? I was dozing off :-) "Beauty", "love" and "hate" are not
> your terms. Nobody owns these concepts. Justice is an equaliser. It brings
> some right to something that is wrong. It shows the victim there is hope and
> that people can not get away with malicious acts against the innocent
Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I defined 'my' term as 'vengeance',
and 'yours' as 'justice'. 'Beauty', 'love', and 'hate' were just to
illustrate my point.
--
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:36:38 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
{ snip }
>> I believe that there is a fourth criterion, Richard. Justice cannot
>> exist if the judged, are treated unfairly. Contrary to what the
>> hijackers of the term, like JFA would have us believe, 'justice' does
>> not belong to the 'judges'. For justice to be executed fairly (let us
>> not forget that the word 'just' forms part of it), those who are judged,
>> must be treated with dignity, fairness, and with the utmost respect for
>> their natural and wholly inalienable rights, which include the right to
>> life.
> which they lose when the take way some else's "right to life" ini america
An inalienable right cannot be 'lost', incubus.
{ snip rest 'cos I'm off to watch the 'JT' }
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 08:18:59 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>> > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
>> > a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
>> > from indulging in low rent whores.
>> "She understood why she was being executed." Is that a normal standard
>> employed to determine sanity?
> I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
> again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
> the quote.
Which objectively, means nothing. Consider the number of false confessions
that people make. Even if she were serious, she meant that she would
kill again if released. The answer is simple: don't release her. She
spent more than ten years in gaol without harming a single person.
No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
--
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 19:18:19 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:08:25 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> what's a vagina? that bastard des keeps me inside the flat, i don't have
>>> time to "get any"...fuck 'im ..
>
>> I'm surprised he hasn't cut your nuts out as well.
>
>If he'd only hold still ....
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 19:18:19 GMT
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 18:29:40 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:27:46 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > which they lose when the take way some else's "right to life" ini
>> america
>
>>> An inalienable right cannot be 'lost', incubus.
>
>> yes it can when someone takes it from you
>>
>> Like a murderer
>
>No, incubus, the right is 'violated', it is not 'lost'. Otherwise,
>there would be prosecution of the murderer.
>
>Try to pay attention, son.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 18:29:40 GMT
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:34:15 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:30:27 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I am a british citizen and i would only "accept" prison because we don't
>>> have the death penalty but i would not beleive that my child has received
>>> justice
>
>> Your child would not longer be in a position to receive anything.
>
>Especially not 'honour'.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:34:15 GMT
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:25:53 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:46 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > I would not be so content. If someone murders my child i would no way be
>>> > satisfied with prison.
>
>>> 'Vengeance'. QED.
>
>> and justice. QED
>
>incubus, the laws of arguing, require a little more effort than a
>repost of what you have previously said, followed by 'QED'.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:25:53 GMT
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 18:28:36 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:49 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The victim is dead no matter what the sentence. As for the so called
>>> 'closure' that the death of the murderer brings I can only cite the
>>> expressed feelings of British parents and others who have seen the
>> murderer
>>> of their child or loved ones sent to prison for the rest of lives. The
>>> majority, not all, tend to feel satisfied - they are not satisfied when a
>>> drunken driver is only given four years
>
>> I would not be so content. If someone murders my child i would no way be
>> satisfied with prison.
>
>'Vengeance'. QED.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 18:28:36 GMT
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
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Xref: news alt.activism.death-penalty:275237
Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:45:13 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>> >> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
>> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>> > no it was justice.
>> The problem is that 'justice' means different things to different people,
>> the net result of which, is that it has no real meaning at all. Just
>> as language needs laws to which we adhere in order that our words be
>> understandable to those with whom we communicate, so 'justice' needs
>> to be defined if we are to have any hope of arriving at a consensus.
>>
>> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless as
>> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
> Justice, in the legal sense has three basic reasons for existence:
> retribution, protection of society from criminals, and deterrence.
I believe that there is a fourth criterion, Richard. Justice cannot
exist if the judged, are treated unfairly. Contrary to what the
hijackers of the term, like JFA would have us believe, 'justice' does
not belong to the 'judges'. For justice to be executed fairly (let us
not forget that the word 'just' forms part of it), those who are judged,
must be treated with dignity, fairness, and with the utmost respect for
their natural and wholly inalienable rights, which include the right to
life.
Consider a system where a car driver who 'runs' (sic) a red traffic
light, is put to death. Would this be 'justice' ? Certainly the
driver would suffer a great deal. Certainly, he would never reoffend.
However, would this be 'justice' ? I feel confident that most thinking
people and even a few retentionists, would consider this sentence 'unjust',
and excessive.
Which is why I stated in a previous follow-up to incubus, that 'justice'
doesn't really mean much, as long as we can't arrive at a consensus. I
for one am happy that my country does not put people to death, and that
the obscenity that is capital punishment is not and never again will be,
a shameful stain on the French criminal justice system.
Vive la France !
{ snip }
--
Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
http: // www . zeouane . org
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:21:22 GMT
>
>Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 12:29:32 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>>> >> If my wife gets mugged, and I wait ten years to kill the fucker who
>>> >> touched her (I wouldn't wait 15 seconds, but that's by the by), would
>>> >> you consider that I was 'defending' her ?
>
>>> > The acts of an individual and the legal actions of a society are two
>>> > completely different things, Desmond.
>
>>> To a certain extent, yes. However, you and I are citizens of republics,
>>> Richard, and in that respect, we have 'governments for the people, by
>>> the people' (after a fashion).
>>>
>>> In the United States and France, prosecutions are not done in the name
>>> of a parasitic monarchy, or 'crown', but in the name of the people. The
>>> state ... 'l'état' in France.
>
>> That is correct, but the major difference is instead of representing
>> only one person as you would be doing if you exacted retribution, the
>> state acts for all.
>
>No, because the republic cannot exist without the people. The republic
>_is_ the people. When the republic kills, it kills in the name of the
>people. The _people_ kill.
>
>Aside from that, a question that has always puzzled me, and to which I
>have yet to receive a satisfactory answer, is: if a killing carried out
>by one person is wrong, why is a killing carried out by several million,
>'right' ? Is it a question of numbers ? Is the 'collective guilt'
>divided by millions, to the point where it is negligible ? What about
>a hundred people who kill ? Is their 'guilt' divided by 100, and so their
>punishment should also be divided by 100 ? When a thousand people kill,
>is their 'guilt' divided by 1000 ? At what point does the collective
>'guilt' become sufficiently 'diluted' so that no killing is justified ?
>
> ?The state, then, is in a continual balancing act
>> attempting to meet the needs and wishes of a majority of its citizens in
>> a democratic republic. Too bad that we cannot use out technological
>> wonders to form true democracies and give the power directly to the
>> people, but things just don't work out that way. Besides, how would the
>> politicians survive?
>
>Do not confuse democracies and republics, Richard.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 10 Oct 2002 22:21:22 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 48
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A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:14:56 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> > no it was justice.
>
> The problem is that 'justice' means different things to different people,
> the net result of which, is that it has no real meaning at all. Just
> as language needs laws to which we adhere in order that our words be
> understandable to those with whom we communicate, so 'justice' needs
> to be defined if we are to have any hope of arriving at a consensus.
>
> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless as
> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
>
slaughter of 6 million innocent humans to the execution of 780 proven
murderers. That's not a term which can be defined in any sense of
humanity. So what ARE those 'terms' you claim you have defined?
Your 'argument' (sic) is that no murderer, regardless of how vile, disgusting
and depraved his act, should be executed. Quite clearly, another may
view it as 'I don't contend to know much... but I know how that particular
murderer murdered... and just maybe -- that's all I need to know.' You
would deny that view... but find YOUR view, which would release on the
street those such as Theodore Frank before you would consider executing
them, to be 'principled.'
I don't know whether to laugh or cry as to your ignorance.
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |THE BITCH DROPPED THE BIKE ON MY TOE
> |SO I DUMPED HER SORRY ASS
> |AND MY 5 KIDS AS WELL
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:48:46 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> > satisfied with prison.
>
> >> 'Vengeance'. QED.
>
>
> incubus, the laws of arguing, require a little more effort than a
> repost of what you have previously said, followed by 'QED'.
>
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 23:30:27 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> I am a british citizen and i would only "accept" prison because we don't
> >> have the death penalty but i would not beleive that my child has received
> >> justice
>
> > Your child would not longer be in a position to receive anything.
>
> Especially not 'honour'.
>
Too bad that you have trouble defining that word, FDP. Or
the logical construction of your words. As I recall you said we
could 'honor the memory...'
PV
> { snip }
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 17:36:38 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> exist if the judged, are treated unfairly. Contrary to what the
> >> hijackers of the term, like JFA would have us believe, 'justice' does
> >> not belong to the 'judges'. For justice to be executed fairly (let us
> >> not forget that the word 'just' forms part of it), those who are judged,
> >> must be treated with dignity, fairness, and with the utmost respect for
> >> their natural and wholly inalienable rights, which include the right to
> >> life.
>
>
> An inalienable right cannot be 'lost', incubus.
>
invention of man. And what man's mind creates, man's mind can
disassemble. You really should stick to those things that are
familar to you.
> { snip rest 'cos I'm off to watch the 'JT' }
>
Ah, yes... there you go.
A Planet Visitor
"Incubus" <inc...@river.styx> wrote in message news:EHmp9.4363$fV4.2...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
> )
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 22:55:48
>
>
> Organization: ntl Cablemodem News Service> news:slrnaqbhl2.c7j.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> > Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:27:46 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
> :
> >
> > { snip }
> >
> > >> > which they lose when the take way some else's "right to life" ini
> > > america
> >
> > >> An inalienable right cannot be 'lost', incubus.
> >
> > >
> > > Like a murderer
> >
> > No, incubus, the right is 'violated', it is not 'lost'. Otherwise,
> > there would be prosecution of the murderer.
> >
> > Try to pay attention, son.
>
> the right to his own. The existence of the death penalty means the right to
> life i not inalienable. Pay attention boy.
Come...come...Incubus... you mean desi??? mince words?? Bite your
tongue, young man. he doesn't 'mince' them... he purées them. Until
they are the consistency of baby ca-ca. Which is what they usually
smell like.
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:49 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> 'closure' that the death of the murderer brings I can only cite the
> >> expressed feelings of British parents and others who have seen the
> > murderer
> >> of their child or loved ones sent to prison for the rest of lives. The
> >> majority, not all, tend to feel satisfied - they are not satisfied when a
> >> drunken driver is only given four years
>
> > satisfied with prison.
>
> 'Vengeance'. QED.
>
society. Vengeance is vigilante justice... the mob overrunning
the jail and hanging the accused before a trial. A member of the
victim's family may well believe in 'vengeance' and may well believe
in 'forgiveness.' But that has NOTHING to do with the reasoning of
society in its criminal code. You will not find the word 'vengeance'
in any legal code or requirement for executing a murderer. It's just
simply more of the emotional claptrap you continually pour out here.
Like equating the slaughter of 6 million innocent with the lawful
execution of 780 proven murderers.
PV
> { snip }
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:40:39 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> No, this execution was vengeance pure and simple. Not 'self defence',
> >> not 'deterrence', not 'incapacitation'. Vengeance.
>
> > principal is that the person violating the law must pay a price for
> > doing so. In some instances, we who believe in the death penalty
> > believe that penalty is forfeiture of their life.
>
> I am personally wary of those in whom the urge to punish is strong. Now
> John will be kind enough to dig into his intercranial database, and tell
> me who said that, as I'm damned if I can recall ...
Monty Python.
Actually, it was Goethe -- "Distrust all those in whom the urge to punish is
strong." My God... but your 'intellect' is distressingly poor.
A Planet Visitor
> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:39:11 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
>
> > your terms. Nobody owns these concepts. Justice is an equaliser. It brings
> > some right to something that is wrong. It shows the victim there is hope and
> > that people can not get away with malicious acts against the innocent
>
> Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I defined 'my' term as 'vengeance',
> and 'yours' as 'justice'. 'Beauty', 'love', and 'hate' were just to
> illustrate my point.
>
And that's just emotional claptrap. Both 'vengeance' and 'justice'
have clear meanings... and presuming that the execution of a murderer
provide society 'justice' does not mean that was 'vengeance.' Of
course, in the meaning of 'retributive infliction of injury or punishment,'
ALL penalties in the criminal justice system have some measure of
'vengeance' that society takes. But you will not find that word in any
criminal code.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:ienp9.2999$%e3.2...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> >
> > "Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
> > news:slrnaqbcvr.c0t.p...@lievre.voute.net...
> > > Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:39:11 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a
> écrit
> > :
> > >
> > > { snip }
> > >
> > > >> 'justice' as a justification for the death penalty, is as meaningless
> > as
> > > >> 'beauty', 'love', 'hate'. My terms can be defined; yours cannot.
> > >
> > > > have you finished? I was dozing off :-) "Beauty", "love" and "hate"
> are
> > not
> > > > your terms. Nobody owns these concepts. Justice is an equaliser. It
> > brings
> > > > some right to something that is wrong. It shows the victim there is
> hope
> > and
> > > > that people can not get away with malicious acts against the innocent
> > >
> > > Perhaps I was not sufficiently clear. I defined 'my' term as
> 'vengeance',
> > > and 'yours' as 'justice'. 'Beauty', 'love', and 'hate' were just to
> > > illustrate my point.
> >
>
> I say they are, as is retribution. That doesn't mean that I demean
> justice,I just don't want a fancy dress for it.
>
in exacting punishment. But 'vengeance' standing ALONE is not
justice. Vengeance can certainly take on forms that ARE NOT
Justice. We all know that. When someone say that the two terms
are synonymous they are totally ignoring those acts committed in
vengeance outside of any concept that society holds as lawful.
Someone kills your child... you kill him for doing so... You do it
in vengeance... but that is hardly how society views justice.
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Le 10 Oct 2002 05:31:33 -0700, RichardJ <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
> > Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
> > a form of societal self defense.
>
> when societies don't have 'selves', Richard, and b) in what way this case
> is 'self defence' ...
>
'self-of-society.' You should consult your definitions of what constitutes
a 'self,'
self==thing==idea==system==society
and understand that even the United Nations has recognized
that society has a self.. see
http://www.hri.ca/fortherecord2001/documentation/commission/e-cn4-2001-16.htm
quoting -- "Racism then will be seen as an attack on the "Self" of society and
no longer as an affront to the "Other."
And then we have --
John Locke - Civil Government Second Essay --
"we shall best see by considering wherein political SOCIETY ITSELF consists."
"what men called virtue and vice throughout the world was, the reputation
and fashion of each particular SOCIETY within ITSELF"
Karl Marx - Communist Manifesto --
"SOCIETY suddenly finds ITSELF put back into a state of momentary barbarism"
Lord Byron - Don Juan --
"To their own whims and passions, and what not; SOCIETY ITSELF, which
should create kindness..."
Henry Adams - Education of Henry Adams --
"but that the most intelligent SOCIETY..."
If it's intelligent it MUST have a self.
The Federalist Papers --
"the one by creating a will in the community independent of the
majority- that is, of the SOCIETY ITSELF"
"Whilst all authority in it will be derived from and dependent on
the society, the SOCIETY ITSELF will be broken into so many parts"
Victor Hugo - Les Miserables --
"The old highest SOCIETY held ITSELF above this law as it did above
all others."
James Boswell - The Life of Samuel Johnson --
"SOCIETY ITSELF, allows, that "Johnson has spoken..."
John Stuart Mill - On Liberty --
"But reflecting persons perceived that when SOCIETY is ITSELF the tyrant.."
"being acted on by rational consideration of distant motives, society
has itself to blame..."
Ibid - Representative Government --
"unless preceded or accompanied by an altered distribution of power
in SOCIETY ITSELF"
Blaise Pascal - Pensees --
"The whole SOCIETY ITSELF of their casuists cannot give assurance to
a conscience in error..."
Stendhal - Red and the Black --
"SOCIETY would busy ITSELF a long time over this strange mesalliance."
Edmund Burke - Reflections on the Revolution in France
"and that which tends the most to the perpetuation of SOCIETY ITSELF."
"were among the causes for which civil SOCIETY ITSELF has been instituted."
Immanuel Kant - Science of Right --
"Even if a civil SOCIETY resolved to dissolve ITSELF with the consent
of all its members"
Frederic Bastiat - The Law --
"this odious perversion of the law is a perpetual source of hatred and
discord; that it tends to destroy SOCIETY ITSELF?"
Friedrich Nietzsche - Thus Spank Zarathustra --
"Our gilded, false, over-rouged populace- though it call ITSELF 'good
SOCIETY."
Adam Smith - Wealth of Nations --
"the SOCIETY ITSELF grows to be what is properly a commercial society."
And 'society self-defense'?? Many times --
On Liberty - John Stuart Mill -
"Even then, it is not a foreign government, but the very government assailed,
which alone, in the exercise of SELF-DEFENCE, can legitimately punish..."
Representative Government - John Stuart Mill --
"A federal government has not a sufficiently concentrated authority to
conduct with much efficiency any war but one of SELF-DEFENCE, in which
it can rely on the voluntary co-operation of every citizen:"
Education of Henry Adams - Henry Adams --
"From the beginning of history, this attitude had been branded as
criminal- worse than crime- sacrilege! Society punished it ferociously
and justly, in SELF-DEFENCE. "
Federalist Papers - Historical Document --
"Is the power of raising armies and equipping fleets necessary?
This is involved in the foregoing power. It is involved in the power
of SELF-DEFENCE.
Federalist Papers - Historical Document --
"there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original
right of SELF-DEFENCE which is paramount to all positive forms
of government."
PV
> { snip }
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
>news:slrnaqbhj2.c7j.p...@lievre.voute.net...
>> Le Thu, 10 Oct 2002 19:26:49 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>>
>> { snip }
>>
>> >> The victim is dead no matter what the sentence. As for the so called
>> >> 'closure' that the death of the murderer brings I can only cite the
>> >> expressed feelings of British parents and others who have seen the
>> > murderer
>> >> of their child or loved ones sent to prison for the rest of lives.
The
>> >> majority, not all, tend to feel satisfied - they are not satisfied
when a
>> >> drunken driver is only given four years
>>
>> > I would not be so content. If someone murders my child i would no way
be
>> > satisfied with prison.
>>
>> 'Vengeance'. QED.
>>
>That speaks for the family of the victim. And certainly not for
>society. Vengeance is vigilante justice... the mob overrunning
This definition of vengeance falls short. Vengeant is called an act
committed for mainly or exclusively the feeling to have outspokenly hurt the
targeted as a punishment for any prior violating deed of him. Thus vengeance
can quite well be the philosophy of a so-called 'legal penalty', it is in no
way an exclusive domain of any private persons or a lynch mob.
J.
Incubus
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:ao6uch$q11$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
i think his point was that justice is contrained by the guidlines if the
law. Revenge is not
>
> J.
>
>
>
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/11/2002 12:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <ao6uch$q11$04$1...@news.t-online.com>
J.
===============================
A good clear, concise reply. (LOL).
Incubus
> Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:41:37 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> This definition of vengeance falls short. Vengeant is called an act
> >> committed for mainly or exclusively the feeling to have outspokenly
hurt
> > the
> >> targeted as a punishment for any prior violating deed of him. Thus
> > vengeance
> >> can quite well be the philosophy of a so-called 'legal penalty', it is
in
> > no
> >> way an exclusive domain of any private persons or a lynch mob.
>
> > i think his point was that justice is contrained by the guidlines if the
> > law. Revenge is not
>
that's impossible.
>The United States Supreme Court, in a
> decision delivered in (IIRC) 2000, stated that not only is the so-called
> 'deterrent effect' unknown, but it is _unknowable_. They declared that
> the death penalty is retribution, and if we look up 'retribution', we find
> that one of its synonyms is 'vengeance'.
Vengence has no guidlines. Justice does
Richard J
> >> >> Richard, and in that respect, we have 'governments for the people, by
> >> >> the people' (after a fashion).
> >> >>
> >> >> In the United States and France, prosecutions are not done in the name
> >> >> of a parasitic monarchy, or 'crown', but in the name of the people. The
> >> >> state ... 'l'état' in France.
>
> >> > That is correct, but the major difference is instead of representing
> >> > only one person as you would be doing if you exacted retribution, the
> >> > state acts for all.
>
> >> No, because the republic cannot exist without the people. The republic
> >> _is_ the people. When the republic kills, it kills in the name of the
> >> people. The _people_ kill.
>
> > representatives of the people who, because they are elected by majority
> > vote, act on the majority opinion of their citizens most of the time.
>
> Which brings us back to what I said: when the republic takes life, it
> does so in the name of the people. The people kill.
>
> >> Aside from that, a question that has always puzzled me, and to which I
> >> have yet to receive a satisfactory answer, is: if a killing carried out
> >> by one person is wrong, why is a killing carried out by several million,
> >> 'right' ? Is it a question of numbers ? Is the 'collective guilt'
> >> divided by millions, to the point where it is negligible ? What about
> >> a hundred people who kill ? Is their 'guilt' divided by 100, and so their
> >> punishment should also be divided by 100 ? When a thousand people kill,
> >> is their 'guilt' divided by 1000 ? At what point does the collective
> >> 'guilt' become sufficiently 'diluted' so that no killing is justified ?
>
> > justified or unjustified. Your problem is that you apparently are not
> > differentiating between murder and homicide.
>
> One is an absolute definition, Richard; the other is a moral judgement.
>
> My question was simply : at what point does 'killing' become right ? One
> person killing another is wrong. 100 people killing a person is also wrong.
> Yet as if by magic, when the 'numbers' reach the level of the population of
> any particular jurisdiction, killing becomes 'right'.
>
> You'll forgive me my scepticism.
>
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
Already asked and answered, Desmond. Right and wrong are not some
nebulous moral determinations which appear out of the ether. Morality
is determined by people within a given society. What is morally correct
for one society is not necessarily morally acceptable in another. For
example, it was moral in Hawaii before the coming of Westerners among
the nobility for brother and sister to marry and rule. Their eldest son
and daughter in turn married and ruled when the queen died.
The Hawaiians followed this custom for some centuries and felt it
perfectly fine. Christians, on the other hand used to execute people
for this type of incest.
Teflon
Jürgen
Richard J schrieb in Nachricht <3DA79A22...@hotmail.com>...
>Desmond Coughlan wrote:
....Right and wrong are not some
>nebulous moral determinations which appear out of the ether. Morality
>is determined by people within a given society. What is morally correct
>for one society is not necessarily morally acceptable in another. For
>example, it was moral in Hawaii before the coming of Westerners among
>the nobility for brother and sister to marry and rule. Their eldest son
>and daughter in turn married and ruled when the queen died.
>
>The Hawaiians followed this custom for some centuries and felt it
>perfectly fine. Christians, on the other hand used to execute people
>for this type of incest.
>
Other said, right and wrong are some nebulous moral determinations which
appear out of the ether.
J.
JIGSAW1695
Message-id: <ao8edm$ko1$07$1...@news.t-online.com>
J.
===============================
The difference between right and wrong can also be very definitive.
A Planet Visitor
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021011131706...@mb-mh.aol.com...
to hearing from Jürgen.
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 17:41:37 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> committed for mainly or exclusively the feeling to have outspokenly hurt
> > the
> >> targeted as a punishment for any prior violating deed of him. Thus
> > vengeance
> >> can quite well be the philosophy of a so-called 'legal penalty', it is in
> > no
> >> way an exclusive domain of any private persons or a lynch mob.
>
> > i think his point was that justice is contrained by the guidlines if the
> > law. Revenge is not
>
> decision delivered in (IIRC) 2000, stated that not only is the so-called
> 'deterrent effect' unknown, but it is _unknowable_. They declared that
> the death penalty is retribution, and if we look up 'retribution', we find
> that one of its synonyms is 'vengeance'.
>
because it cannot be proven that it does deter. Can you EVER
make up your mind? ALL punishment is RETRIBUTION. By the
definition of punishment. ALL punishment has an element of
VENGEANCE. By the definition of vengeance. But JUSTICE
is not TOTALLY contained in the concept of vengeance or
retribution. JUSTICE also presumes the protection of society
from FURTHER damage possibly inflicted by the person having
committed the crime.
Vengeance cares not one bit for any possible future protection.
It cares ONLY for what the word means... vengeance. The entire
Criminal Justice system bases its purpose on PUBLIC SAFETY.
PV
A Planet Visitor
PV
> J.
>
>
>
>
John Rennie
And the reason why one should rely on reason and not 'morality'.
Jürgen
John Rennie schrieb in Nachricht ...
I think we had this before. Should you be able to derive any law which you'd
like to call reasonable from pure logic then do so. I rather guess natural,
self-understanding and self-explaining "laws", which pretty equate sort of
morality, for indispensable for the human created jurisprudential law.
J.
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb in Nachricht
<20021012031925...@mb-cj.aol.com>...
I am awaiting your extrollified thoughts.
Rev. Don Kool
Desi Coughlan wrote:
> Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> wrote :
>
>
>>>>Yep, this one was a great example of how the death penalty is used as
>>>>a form of societal self defense. That, and why a man should refrain
>>>>from indulging in low rent whores.
>>>
>
>>>"She understood why she was being executed." Is that a normal standard
>>>employed to determine sanity?
>>
>
>>I would think so. She stated she was one of those who would murder
>>again. If you are going to use a quote, please feel free to use all of
>>the quote.
>
>
> Which objectively, means nothing. Consider the number of false confessions
> that people make. Even if she were serious, she meant that she would
> kill again if released. The answer is simple: don't release her.
We didn't release her, silly boy. Be happy. She will never murder again.
Happy to have cleared things up for you,
Don
--
*************************** You a bounty hunter?
* Rev. Don McDonald, SCSA * Man's gotta earn a living.
* Baltimore, MD * Dying ain't much of a living, boy.
*************************** "Outlaw Josey Wales"
Richard J
> > nebulous moral determinations which appear out of the ether. Morality
> > is determined by people within a given society. What is morally correct
> > for one society is not necessarily morally acceptable in another. For
> > example, it was moral in Hawaii before the coming of Westerners among
> > the nobility for brother and sister to marry and rule. Their eldest son
> > and daughter in turn married and ruled when the queen died.
> >
> > The Hawaiians followed this custom for some centuries and felt it
> > perfectly fine. Christians, on the other hand used to execute people
> > for this type of incest.
>
>
> (if you saw my sisters, you'd understand ... ;-))
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> http: // www . zeouane . org
I have been singularly blessed, or perhaps cursed by the Great
Architect, to be able to find some beauty in just about any woman,
Desmond. It might be nothing but the curve of the neck or wonderful
hands. It might be expressive eyes or a slender ankle, but I am able to
see beauty in women others find ugly. As a consequence, I rarely turned
away any woman as a companion based on lack of physical beauty. You
would be surprised to find out how many ugly women are wonderful (read
that enthusiastic, inventive, and without any prohibitions at all) bed
partners while too many of the pretty ones are shallow and spoiled.
Not that I am immune to beauty, mind you, I am just able to find it in
most people. In my life, hence, I've never had a period since I was 12
when I went wanting for female companionship more than a day or two. It
also drove the pretty ones wild when I didn't cater to their overblown
sense of self importance, and more than a few of them came into my bed
just to find out why I treated them no different from anyone else. To
be honest, those were the ones I always treated as if it did not matter
if they stayed or went, and many of them loved it.
Teflon
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 19:28:20 GMT
>
>Le Fri, 11 Oct 2002 22:42:26 -0500, Richard J <ric...@hotmail.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Already asked and answered, Desmond. Right and wrong are not some
>> nebulous moral determinations which appear out of the ether. Morality
>> is determined by people within a given society. What is morally correct
>> for one society is not necessarily morally acceptable in another. For
>> example, it was moral in Hawaii before the coming of Westerners among
>> the nobility for brother and sister to marry and rule. Their eldest son
>> and daughter in turn married and ruled when the queen died.
>>
>> The Hawaiians followed this custom for some centuries and felt it
>> perfectly fine. Christians, on the other hand used to execute people
>> for this type of incest.
>
>Shit, thank `echo $DEITY` I'm not Hawaiian ...
>
>(if you saw my sisters, you'd understand ... ;-))
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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in.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 19:28:20 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <slrnaqgtqt.2mp.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3da4fe81...@news.io.com>
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>
The Dr. Dolly Coughlan archive exists because Desmond Coughlan lacks conviction
in his words. He won't allow his posts to be archived in Google. Please feel
free to use it to your advantage.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 13:42:00 GMT
>
>Le Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:49:10 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Whatever he 'meant', he is wrong. The United States Supreme Court, in a
>>> decision delivered in (IIRC) 2000, stated that not only is the so-called
>>> 'deterrent effect' unknown, but it is _unknowable_. They declared that
>>> the death penalty is retribution, and if we look up 'retribution', we find
>>> that one of its synonyms is 'vengeance'.
>
>> LOL ... This from the guy who said the DP does not deter,
>> because it cannot be proven that it does deter.
>
>*guffaw!!*
>
>Remind us all of how Elvis really is alive, as we can't prove that he isn't,
>Obsession Boy ...
>
>{ snip remainder of LDB trying to appear clever, and failing }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: 12 Oct 2002 13:42:00 GMT
>Organization: None
>Lines: 24
>Message-ID: <slrnaqg9hf.sq.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3da4fe81...@news.io.com>
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A Planet Visitor
> Le Sat, 12 Oct 2002 07:49:10 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> decision delivered in (IIRC) 2000, stated that not only is the so-called
> >> 'deterrent effect' unknown, but it is _unknowable_. They declared that
> >> the death penalty is retribution, and if we look up 'retribution', we find
> >> that one of its synonyms is 'vengeance'.
>
> > LOL ... This from the guy who said the DP does not deter,
> > because it cannot be proven that it does deter.
>
>
> Remind us all of how Elvis really is alive, as we can't prove that he isn't,
> Obsession Boy ...
>
that does not prove God does not exist.
I cannot prove the DP deters..
that does not prove the DP does not deter.
I cannot prove the Universe will eventually have a 'big crunch.'
That does not prove the universe will not have a 'big crunch.'
I cannot prove it will rain on this same day next year.
That does not prove it will not rain on this same day next year.
I cannot prove your two ears provide a supersonic windtunnel.
That does not.... oops yes... apparently I can prove your
two ears provide a supersonic windtunnel. WHOOSH>>>>>
What is rather certain is that your logical ignorance has no bounds,
So, tell us again, about how 'logic' is not a language. Of course,
it's certainly not one YOU are familar with.
PV
> { snip remainder of LDB trying to appear clever, and failing }
>
Incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
news:N47q9.120180$O8.28...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
erm. Scientists have alleged proved that the univers will not end in a big
crunch. There is insuffiient mass (even with dark matter) to cause the
gravity to enable the big crunch. in short, scinetists have proved that
there will not be a big crunch.
:-P
>
> I cannot prove it will rain on this same day next year.
> That does not prove it will not rain on this same day next year.
i live in Britain. It will rain on this day next year :-)
>
> I cannot prove your two ears provide a supersonic windtunnel.
> That does not.... oops yes... apparently I can prove your
> two ears provide a supersonic windtunnel. WHOOSH>>>>>
>
> What is rather certain is that your logical ignorance has no bounds,
> So, tell us again, about how 'logic' is not a language. Of course,
> it's certainly not one YOU are familar with.
Logic is a language, as is mathematics.
the languages of science
Incubus
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 04:59:25 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> *guffaw!!*
> >>
> >> Remind us all of how Elvis really is alive, as we can't prove that he
isn't,
> >> Obsession Boy ...
>
> > I cannot prove God exists...
> > that does not prove God does not exist.
>
> loudly proclaiming that the death penalty deterred, because we couldn't
> prove that it doesn't, has had an effect. Remind us again of how
> _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ (damn, a big word for you !!) means a
negative
> is true, until disproved ... *ROTFLMAO !!!*
you speak Latin too??
if no proof exists either way then neither negative or positive can be
claimed to be true or false
>
> { snip moronic attempts to appear learned }
>
> Des can't prove that LDB is The World's Most Stupid Man (tm), but LDB
> proves it in every post ...
There is no such thing as "the worlds stupidist man"
Incubus
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:16:47 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit
:
>
> { snip }
>
> >> I'm glad to see that the spanking I delivered a few weeks ago, when you
> >> loudly proclaiming that the death penalty deterred, because we couldn't
> >> prove that it doesn't, has had an effect. Remind us again of how
> >> _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ (damn, a big word for you !!) means a
> > negative
> >> is true, until disproved ... *ROTFLMAO !!!*
>
> > you speak Latin too??
>
> standard, one learns a lot of Latin. Oh, and the expression I provided
> is used in debate, and is probably known by a lot of people who don't
> speak Latin. You could probably find it on the web. Ask LDB.
ah. it means, "proof of ignorance"
>
> > if no proof exists either way then neither negative or positive can be
> > claimed to be true or false
>
> Ah, the old Schrodinger's Cat conundrum. Quite. I'm perfectly able to
> recognise that the death penalty _might_ deter. However, LDB's 'point'
> (other than the one six inches above his eyebrows) was that it _did_
> deter, because I could not prove that it _didn't_.
>
> (Cue rote denials, which bearing in mind that _everyone_ on this newsgroup
> knows that he lies, won't be taken seriously ...)
>
> The fact is that _no credible study_ has _ever_ shown that the death
penalty
> deters. As a premise necessarily is considered negative until shown to be
> positive (_Argumentum ad ignorantiam_), the 'deterrence' theory must rest
> in the negative. Put another way, until we can _prove_ that the death
> penalty deters, we _must_ assume that it does not.
no mate. we can not assume anything without proof either way, but then again
how would you prove something like that?
>
> >> Des can't prove that LDB is The World's Most Stupid Man (tm), but LDB
> >> proves it in every post ...
>
> > There is no such thing as "the worlds stupidist man"
>
> No, but there is the World's Most Stupid Man. Just ask LDB to find it
> for you on the web. Here, allow me ...
no I mean there is no such thing as a person who is more stupid than
everyone else in the world.
>
>
url:http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=ISO-8859-1&as_uauthors=Planet%20Visit
or&lr=&as_scoring=d&hl=fr
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:35:51 +0000
>
>Le Mon, 14 Oct 2002 01:35:02 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Not to any great degree of fluency, no, but in speaking French to native-
>>> standard, one learns a lot of Latin. Oh, and the expression I provided
>>> is used in debate, and is probably known by a lot of people who don't
>>> speak Latin. You could probably find it on the web. Ask LDB.
>
>> ah. it means, "proof of ignorance"
>
>No, I didn't mean look up 'PV'. I meant look up '_Argumentum ad
>ignorantiam_'.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 00:35:51 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 20
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>Reply-To: pasdespa...@zeouane.org
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 08:41:30 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 04:59:25 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> *guffaw!!*
>>>
>>> Remind us all of how Elvis really is alive, as we can't prove that he
>isn't,
>>> Obsession Boy ...
>
>> I cannot prove God exists...
>> that does not prove God does not exist.
>
>I'm glad to see that the spanking I delivered a few weeks ago, when you
>loudly proclaiming that the death penalty deterred, because we couldn't
>prove that it doesn't, has had an effect. Remind us again of how
> _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ (damn, a big word for you !!) means a negative
>is true, until disproved ... *ROTFLMAO !!!*
>
>{ snip moronic attempts to appear learned }
>
>Des can't prove that LDB is The World's Most Stupid Man (tm), but LDB
>proves it in every post ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 08:41:30 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 27
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:31:02 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:16:47 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> I'm glad to see that the spanking I delivered a few weeks ago, when you
>>> loudly proclaiming that the death penalty deterred, because we couldn't
>>> prove that it doesn't, has had an effect. Remind us again of how
>>> _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ (damn, a big word for you !!) means a
>> negative
>>> is true, until disproved ... *ROTFLMAO !!!*
>
>> you speak Latin too??
>
>Not to any great degree of fluency, no, but in speaking French to native-
>standard, one learns a lot of Latin. Oh, and the expression I provided
>is used in debate, and is probably known by a lot of people who don't
>speak Latin. You could probably find it on the web. Ask LDB.
>
>> if no proof exists either way then neither negative or positive can be
>> claimed to be true or false
>
>Ah, the old Schrodinger's Cat conundrum. Quite. I'm perfectly able to
>recognise that the death penalty _might_ deter. However, LDB's 'point'
>(other than the one six inches above his eyebrows) was that it _did_
>deter, because I could not prove that it _didn't_.
>
>(Cue rote denials, which bearing in mind that _everyone_ on this newsgroup
>knows that he lies, won't be taken seriously ...)
>
>The fact is that _no credible study_ has _ever_ shown that the death penalty
>deters. As a premise necessarily is considered negative until shown to be
>positive (_Argumentum ad ignorantiam_), the 'deterrence' theory must rest
>in the negative. Put another way, until we can _prove_ that the death
>penalty deters, we _must_ assume that it does not.
>
>>> Des can't prove that LDB is The World's Most Stupid Man (tm), but LDB
>>> proves it in every post ...
>
>> There is no such thing as "the worlds stupidist man"
>
>No, but there is the World's Most Stupid Man. Just ask LDB to find it
>for you on the web. Here, allow me ...
>
>
>url:http://groups.google.com/groups?ie=ISO-8859-1&as_uauthors=Planet%20Vi
sitor&lr=&as_scoring=d&hl=fr
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>desmond @ zeouane.org |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Florida Woman Executed
>Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:31:02 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 49
>Message-ID: <slrnaqifal.6nm.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <3da4fe81...@news.io.com> <3DA57E43...@hotmail.com>
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A Planet Visitor
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:16:47 +0100, Incubus <inc...@river.styx> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> loudly proclaiming that the death penalty deterred, because we couldn't
> >> prove that it doesn't, has had an effect. Remind us again of how
> >> _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ (damn, a big word for you !!) means a
> > negative
> >> is true, until disproved ... *ROTFLMAO !!!*
>
> > you speak Latin too??
>
> standard, one learns a lot of Latin.
Get outta here!!!
> Oh, and the expression I provided
> is used in debate, and is probably known by a lot of people who don't
> speak Latin. You could probably find it on the web. Ask LDB.
>
> > if no proof exists either way then neither negative or positive can be
> > claimed to be true or false
>
> Ah, the old Schrodinger's Cat conundrum.
ROTFLMAO... Did I ever tell you that you are a fucking idiot, FDP?
Oh, yeah... I've mentioned it.
The logic embodied in the fact that one must PROVE an argument for
it to be fact, has NOTHING to do with the Schrödinger Cat paradox.
Even an American 15-year-old KNOWS better than this -- See
http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/kids_space/scat.html&edu=high
I am continual astounded, with just about every one of your posts, where
you plumb the bottom of ignorance ever deeper. Nor does the paradox
relate to any form of a logic analysis, since it is counter-intuitive, and
descriptive of events at the quantum level, those events below the Planck
length, rather than the events which form the 'reality' of logic in the 'classical'
model. In fact, Hawking remarked in respect to that paradox, that whenever
he hears mention of _that cat_, he reaches for his gun. And others
should now look carefully at the rest of the absurd 'arguments' you've
presented. For a little understanding of the Schrödinger Cat paradox... see
http://www.emr.hibu.no/lars/eng/cat/Default.htm
And LOGIC, sport... is NOT a 'conundrum.' It is the ABSENCE of a
'conundrum.' The elimination of ALL form of 'riddle,' demanding that
all 'riddle' can have NO conclusive proof. And if one presumes the DP
deters... one MUST PROVE IT. While if one presumes the DP
does NOT deter... one MUST PROVE IT. The presumption that
if one side of the argument cannot be PROVEN, it makes the other
side of the argument TRUE is preposterous.
.
What Incubus refers to is that 'you can't prove a negative.' You can
find further lessons (you need them badly), on what is involved, by
seeing
http://www.geocities.com/cbpdoc/skeptictricks2.html
Jesus... but does your 'education' (sic) have huge holes in it.
> Quite. I'm perfectly able to
> recognise that the death penalty _might_ deter. However, LDB's 'point'
> (other than the one six inches above his eyebrows) was that it _did_
> deter, because I could not prove that it _didn't_.
>
What an asshole.. I've NEVER said it deterred. That makes you once
again a liar. The very first words that began this dialog were my
comment that "There is no evidence it does NOT deter." This is
a totally TRUE statement, making no claim that it DOES deter. YOUR
words in reply to that were -- "It is not necessary for abolitionists to 'prove'
that it does not deter." Of course IT IS NECESSARY to prove ANY
proposition. I have never said that it DID deter because you couldn't prove
it didn't. Quite the opposite is shown by your words... You have claimed
it DID NOT deter because 'a great number of people... believe it deters.'
Even if everyone but you 'believed' it did, they would STILL need to provide
proof. Proof does not come from OPINION. Nor do your words give
even the slightest hint of what you NOW say -- that you are "perfectly
able to recognized that the death penalty _might_ deter."
> (Cue rote denials, which bearing in mind that _everyone_ on this newsgroup
> knows that he lies, won't be taken seriously ...)
>
Yeah... right... but you can provide no quote from me, claiming the
DP deters.
> The fact is that _no credible study_ has _ever_ shown that the death penalty
> deters.
Quite false.. since it presumes that YOU are defining 'credible.' Certainly
Emory University is MORE CREDIBLE then you'll ever be. See
http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~cozden/Dezhbakhsh_01_01_paper.pdf
But I make no claim that the study provides PROOF of deterrence. Yet Emory
University certainly has conducted a study which concluded the DP
does deter.
> As a premise necessarily is considered negative until shown to be
> positive (_Argumentum ad ignorantiam_), the 'deterrence' theory must rest
> in the negative. Put another way, until we can _prove_ that the death
> penalty deters, we _must_ assume that it does not.
>
It's obvious that you haven't a clue as to what you are even trying to say.
Put the ONLY way -- we cannot ASSUME ANYTHING. And again, you
have shown how simple you are. Contradicting your 'most absurd logic,'
is the clear fact that if you ASSUME it does not, you must PROVE such
an assumption, as the propounder of that assumption. You cannot ASSUME
things are TRUE, without proof. Neither that the DP deters or that the DP
does not deter.
And _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ !!!!! I love it. It PROVES that YOU are
wrong. Quoting -- "Arguments of this form assume that since something
has not been proven false, it is therefore true. Conversely, such an argument
may assume that since something has not been proven true, it is
therefore false." (This is a special case of a false dilemma, since it
assumes that all propositions must either be known to be true or
known to be false.) As Davis writes, "Lack of proof is not proof."
See --
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.htm
Look at it carefully and TRY to grasp the significance using your
limited intellect -- 'LACK OF PROOF IS NOT PROOF.' Read it, and
perhaps ask your friends to translate it for you.
<pathetic kindergarten insult clipped>
When will you EVER learn to hold an 'argument' without making a fool
of yourself when you try to do so?
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sun, 13 Oct 2002 04:59:25 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >>
> >> Remind us all of how Elvis really is alive, as we can't prove that he isn't,
> >> Obsession Boy ...
>
> > I cannot prove God exists...
> > that does not prove God does not exist.
>
> loudly proclaiming that the death penalty deterred, because we couldn't
> prove that it doesn't, has had an effect.
FDP... you're a fucking idiot.
> Remind us again of how
> _Argumentum ad ignorantiam_ (damn, a big word for you !!) means a negative
> is true, until disproved ... *ROTFLMAO !!!*
No.. it does not mean that, you ignoramus. It means that 'Lack of
proof is NOT proof.' It is as silly as saying "Since you cannot prove that ghosts
do not exist, they must exist." See --
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.htm
>
> { snip moronic attempts to appear learned }
>
TRANSLATION - <FDP banging forehead on desk> "I can't believe that
fucking PV did it to me AGAIN...Where's my bottle of gin?"
> Des can't prove that LDB is The World's Most Stupid Man (tm), but LDB
> proves it in every post ...
Actually... I cannot prove your two ears provide a supersonic windtunnel.
That does not.... oops yes... apparently I can prove your
two ears provide a supersonic windtunnel. WHOOSH>>>>>
What is rather certain is that your logical ignorance has no bounds.
And we are now certain why you have 'argued' that Logic is not
a language. Because you know you cannot speak or understand
it. Of course, this was proven with your 'idea' of presenting the
Shrödinger cat paradox. as an example of 'logic.' ho ho ho.
BTW it's CALLED a 'paradox' because it ISN'T logical. In fact it is
a thought experiment which examines events at the quantum level,
quite apart from the classical level of our lives, and has nothing to do
with 'logic,' since it is COUNTERINTUITIVE.
PV
John Rennie
"Incubus" <inc...@river.styx> wrote in message
news:6joq9.5401$Rt1....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
>
snip
> no I mean there is no such thing as a person who is more stupid than
> everyone else in the world.
Do you read Jiggy's posts?
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/14/2002 5:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <Eowq9.12570$345.6...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>
===============================
<sigh!>