Killing of innocents
Nigel Baldwin
you call that a fair price to keep society safe?
Nigel
Portsmouth
England
Richard Jackson
Nigel,
please feel free to show proof of any person executed since 1973 in the
US who has been proven innocent of the crime of murder.
If you can show proof of such, you are a better researcher than all
abolitionists here and there in the last thirty or so years, since there
is not one such case proven here.
--
Richard Jackson
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Donna Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <90jmji$pm3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Richard Jackson
<ri...@my-deja.com> a écrit :
> please feel free to show proof of any person executed since 1973 in the
> US who has been proven innocent of the crime of murder.
>
> If you can show proof of such, you are a better researcher than all
> abolitionists here and there in the last thirty or so years, since there
> is not one such case proven here.
>
>
This is dodging an issue on your part, Jackon. You know the legal procedure
for such a after death proof is not in force. You know why it is not
pursued, lack of money and the desire to spend what limited funds are
available.
I see now that the retentionists are devided into two groups, those who
recognize there is a innocent problem and that it is impossible for
innocents not to have been executed.
I will remind you again of George Will`s article which I have added once
more since I think you people are just skipping it.
The last paragraph concludes
" But that valuation is lowered by careless or corrupt administration of
capital punishment, which "Actual Innocence'' powerfully suggests is
intolerably common."
To others, George Will is a well known conservative journalist and writer.
He is widely respected because of his intellectual honesty. I suggest
him as a good role model for retentionists.
Jackon, supporting the "corrupt administration" of your beloved death
penalty is not the way to go.
Earl
*****
`
DNA , the Death Penalty And Horrifying Mistakes I
By George F. Will
WASHINGTON- Don Śt you worry about it," said the Oklahoma prosecutor to the
defense lawyer. "Weąre gonna needle your client. You know, lethal injection,
the needle. We're going to needle Robert."
Oklahoma almost did. Robert Miller spent nine years on death row, during six
of which the state had DNA test results proving that his sperm was not that
of the man who raped and killed the 92-year-old woman. The prosecutor said
the tests only proved that another man had been with Mr. Miller during the
crime Finally, the weight of scientific evidence got Mr. Miller released and
another man indicted.
You could fill a book with such hair-curling true stories of blighted lives
and justice traduced. Three authors have filled one.
It should change the argument about capital punishment and other aspects of
U.S. criminal justice. Conservatives, especially, should draw this lesson
from the book: Capital punishment is a government program, so skepticism is
in order.
Horror, too, is a reasonable response to what Barry Scheck, Pete Neufeld and
Jim Dwyer demonstrate in "Actual Innocence: Five Days to Execution and Other
Dispatches From the Wrongly Convicted " You will not soon read a more
frightening book It is a catalog of appalling miscarriages of justice, some
of them nearly lethal. Their cumulative weight compels the conclusion that
many innocent people are in prison and some innocent people have been
executed.
Mr Scheck and Mr. Neufeld (both members of 0. J. Simpsonąs "dream team" of
defense lawyers) founded the probono Innocence Project at the Benjamin N
Cardozo School of Law in New York to aid persons who convincingly claim to
have been wrongly convicted. Mr. Dwyer, winner of two Pulitzer Prizes, is
currently a columnist for the New York Daily News. | Their book is a
heartbreaking | and infuriating compendium of | stones of lives ruined by: |
€ Mistaken identifications by eyewitnesses or victims' which contributed to
84 percent of the convictions overturned by the Innocence Project's DNA
exonerations.
€ Criminal investigations, especially of the most heinous crimes, that
become " echo chambers" in which, because of the normal craving for
retribution, the perceptions of prosecutors and jurors are shaped by what
they want to be true.
€ The sinister culture of jailhouse snitches, who earn reduced sentences by
fabricating "admissions" by fellow inmates to unsolved crimes.
€ Incompetent defense representation.
The list of ways that the criminal justice system misfires could be
extended, but some numbers tell the most serious story: In the 24 years
since the resumption of executions under Supreme Court guidelines, about 620
have occurred, but 87 condemned persons‹one for every seven executed‹had
their convictions vacated by exonerating evidence. In eight of these cases,
and in many more exonerations not involving death row, DNA evidence was
conclusive.
One inescapable inference from these numbers is that some of the 620 persons
executed were innocent. Which is why, after the exoneration of 13 prisoners
on death row in Illinois since 1987, Governor George Ryan, a Republican, has
imposed a moratorium on executions.
Two powerful arguments for capital punishment are that its deterrent effect
saves lives and it enhances society's valuation of life by expressing
proportionate anger at murder. But that valuation is lowered by careless or
corrupt administration of capital punishment, which "Actual Innocence''
powerfully suggests is intolerably common.
Washington Post Writers Group.
A Planet Visitor
"Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:90ku5j$pc0$1...@news2.isdnet.net...
>
> --
>
>
> ----------
> Dans l'article <90jmji$pm3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Richard Jackson
> <ri...@my-deja.com> a écrit :
>
>
> > please feel free to show proof of any person executed since 1973 in the
> > US who has been proven innocent of the crime of murder.
> >
> > If you can show proof of such, you are a better researcher than all
> > abolitionists here and there in the last thirty or so years, since there
> > is not one such case proven here.
> >
> >
>
>
> This is dodging an issue on your part, Jackon. You know the legal procedure
> for such a after death proof is not in force. You know why it is not
> pursued, lack of money and the desire to spend what limited funds are
> available.
>
Translation of Earl's comment.... I haven't a clue of a name
to mention.
<rest clipped>
PV
Earl Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <uqtX5.98238$vc3.21...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A Planet
Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> a écrit :
>
> Translation of Earl's comment.... I haven't a clue of a name
> to mention.
We have to change the name each time and forgot to, it was my posting
alright.
However, I raised an issue and you did not comment on it.
Earl
Charles Trew
>> If you can show proof of such, you are a better researcher than all
>> abolitionists here and there in the last thirty or so years, since there
>> is not one such case proven here.
>
>
> This is dodging an issue on your part, Jackon. You know the legal procedure
> for such a after death proof is not in force. You know why it is not
> pursued, lack of money and the desire to spend what limited funds are
> available.
You know that DNA can be tested even after a person has been executed
and find out if they were really innocent. There are other ways as well.
And there have been plenty of cases where up until the last minute, an
inmate was insisting that he didn't do it and DNA would exonerate him.
Ricky McGinn and Derek Barnabei are the two most recent.
>
> I see now that the retentionists are devided into two groups, those who
> recognize there is a innocent problem and that it is impossible for
> innocents not to have been executed.
No, some us recognize the possibility.
It's just the possibility is so remote and there are no known cases in
the modern era that I'm not going to worry about it obsessively.
I live in Northern Virginia outside Washington. With the exception of
Los Angeles we have the worst traffic problems of any area in the US. When
I get in my car there is a real and quantifiable chance that I will be
killed or injured in a car accident. As each day passes the odds grow
against me. A co-worker just crunched her car yesterday.
Yet i drive, even though its only for convenience. I could take Metro.
Even thought the odds are greater against me than an innocent being
executed in the US, I drive anyway. Why should I worry about something
even less of a risk that I deal with everyday?
Richard Jackson
Earl, I am willing to repeat this question again. Why, with all the
abolitionists' efforts to find one innocent person who has been executed
since 1973 in the US has there been none found? Why is it that the only
thing abolitionists have to go on is supposition? Is it not reasonable
to assume that with all the effort to prove just one innocent person has
been executed that had one been, abolitionists would hold that case up
as a banner for their battle cry?
Do we find that one example? We do not. Instead, we see example after
example of how this or that inmate was released after years on death
row, or claims that since so many have had their sentences commutted to
life or other lesser sentences something *must* be wrong.
In fact, relatively few completely innocent people have been released
from prison on wrongful convictions. We might argue the reason for
that, but I personally think it is because the burden or proof for
capital convictions is somewhat higher than for other crimes, and
rightfully so.
__
Richard Jackson
> DNA , the Death Penalty And Horrifying Mistakes I
>
> By George F. Will
>
> WASHINGTON- Don Œt you worry about it," said the Oklahoma prosecutor
to the
> defense lawyer. "We¹re gonna needle your client. You know, lethal
> Mr Scheck and Mr. Neufeld (both members of 0. J. Simpson¹s "dream
Sharpjfa
>From: "Nigel Baldwin" N.Ba...@btinternet.com
>Date: 12/5/00 2:50 PM EST
>Message-id: <90jguf$cv9$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>
>
>What if the next innocent person to hang were to be you, Michael 100? Would
>you call that a fair price to keep society safe?
no proof of an innocent executed in the US since 1900. Overhwlming proof that
murderers harm and murder again. Therefore, by stopping executions, you put
many more innocents at risk.
>
sharp Justice For All http://www.jfa.net/
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/ http://www.murdervictims.com/
Overwhelmingly, the US criminal justice system benefits criminals, dishonors
victims and contributes to future victimizations.
A Planet Visitor
"Earl Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:90lskd$ls3$1...@news4.isdnet.net...
>
> --
>
>
> ----------
all simply irresistibly stupid, and impossible NOT to comment on.
You mean to say that you posted one that made sense, or did
my newsreader just not get it?
PV
Peter Morris
"Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:90m6rv$qm4$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <90ku5j$pc0$1...@news2.isdnet.net>,
> "Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
> >
>
> Earl, I am willing to repeat this question again. Why, with all the
> abolitionists' efforts to find one innocent person who has been executed
> since 1973 in the US has there been none found? Why is it that the only
> thing abolitionists have to go on is supposition? Is it not reasonable
> to assume that with all the effort to prove just one innocent person has
> been executed that had one been, abolitionists would hold that case up
> as a banner for their battle cry?
Richard, let us suppose just for a moment that you are right, and that
no innocent person has been executed. Do you not agree that
abolitionists have in fact helped to make this so? Is it not true
that the efforts of death penalty opponents have acted as a safety net,
and caught a number of mistakes made by the state?
Let me ask you a question, Richard. What if the journalism students
had only made their investigations AFTER Anthony Porter had been
executed? Would you then agree that the DP is unsafe?
Here is how it works, Richard. Some students were very worried
about the risk of executing innocent people. Because they were
worried, they investigated the case. Because they investigated the
case, they uncovered certain evidence. Because they uncovered
this evidence, Anthony Porter was saved. Because Anthony
Porter was saved, certain complacent persons are able to make
the smug claim "no innocents executed".
Simply put, Richard, the death penalty is made safe through the
actions of people who think it is dangerous. Interesting paradox,
innit?
Bottom line, Richard. If nobody were opposing the death penalty,
then execution of innocents would be an everyday occurrence.
> Do we find that one example? We do not. Instead, we see example after
> example of how this or that inmate was released after years on death
> row, or claims that since so many have had their sentences commutted to
> life or other lesser sentences something *must* be wrong.
There are several types of miscarriages of justice. One is punishment
of an innocent person. Another is giving too harsh a punishment for
the crime. I would consider it a major miscarriage of justice if someone
were to commit negligent manslaughter and be executed for it. I
think it is quite likely to happen. Certainly I know that people have
been sentenced to death for killings that were later ruled accidental or
self defence.
Some people on death row are totally innocent. The vast majority
are guilty of a crime that ranges from negligent manslaughter to
felony murder. Only a small percentage are factually guilty of
CAPITAL murder.
> In fact, relatively few completely innocent people have been released
> from prison on wrongful convictions. We might argue the reason for
> that, but I personally think it is because the burden or proof for
> capital convictions is somewhat higher than for other crimes, and
> rightfully so.
No, Richard. The burden of proof in capital murder cases is no
stronger than it is in jaywalking cases. Both require proof beyond
a reasonable doubt.
John Rennie
"Peter Morris" <no...@m.please> wrote in message
news:90omqq$d5d$1...@lyonesse.netcom.net.uk...
> > "Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
> > >
> >
> > Earl, I am willing to repeat this question again. Why, with all the
> > abolitionists' efforts to find one innocent person who has been executed
> > since 1973 in the US has there been none found? Why is it that the only
> > thing abolitionists have to go on is supposition? Is it not reasonable
> > to assume that with all the effort to prove just one innocent person has
> > been executed that had one been, abolitionists would hold that case up
> > as a banner for their battle cry?
>
> no innocent person has been executed. Do you not agree that
> abolitionists have in fact helped to make this so? Is it not true
> that the efforts of death penalty opponents have acted as a safety net,
> and caught a number of mistakes made by the state?
>
> Let me ask you a question, Richard. What if the journalism students
> had only made their investigations AFTER Anthony Porter had been
> executed? Would you then agree that the DP is unsafe?
>
> Here is how it works, Richard. Some students were very worried
> about the risk of executing innocent people. Because they were
> worried, they investigated the case. Because they investigated the
> case, they uncovered certain evidence. Because they uncovered
> this evidence, Anthony Porter was saved. Because Anthony
> Porter was saved, certain complacent persons are able to make
> the smug claim "no innocents executed".
>
> Simply put, Richard, the death penalty is made safe through the
> actions of people who think it is dangerous. Interesting paradox,
> innit?
>
> Bottom line, Richard. If nobody were opposing the death penalty,
> then execution of innocents would be an everyday occurrence.
>
> > example of how this or that inmate was released after years on death
> > row, or claims that since so many have had their sentences commutted to
> > life or other lesser sentences something *must* be wrong.
>
> of an innocent person. Another is giving too harsh a punishment for
> the crime. I would consider it a major miscarriage of justice if someone
> were to commit negligent manslaughter and be executed for it. I
> think it is quite likely to happen. Certainly I know that people have
> been sentenced to death for killings that were later ruled accidental or
> self defence.
>
> Some people on death row are totally innocent. The vast majority
> are guilty of a crime that ranges from negligent manslaughter to
> felony murder. Only a small percentage are factually guilty of
> CAPITAL murder.
>
> > from prison on wrongful convictions. We might argue the reason for
> > that, but I personally think it is because the burden or proof for
> > capital convictions is somewhat higher than for other crimes, and
> > rightfully so.
>
> stronger than it is in jaywalking cases. Both require proof beyond
> a reasonable doubt.
Richard, I consider this one of the best responses I have read to
your and Sharpe's off repeated mantra to the effect no 'No proof
given that innocent people have been executed since 1492 (or is it
1900?). Do you agree that abolitionists have helped to save
innocent's lives? Do you agree that some of these innocents
would have died without the intervention of abolitionists? I have
noticed that you have tendency to dodge awkward questions
and reply to lesser points. Please don't do it this time.
Eric Perlin
> please feel free to show proof of any person executed
> since 1973 in the US who has been proven innocent of
> the crime of murder.
Richard:
Can you prove that YOU have never committed a murder?
If not, maybe you should be executed.
Eric Perlin
> Do you agree that abolitionists have helped to
> save innocent's lives? Do you agree that some
> of these innocents would have died without the
> intervention of abolitionists? I have noticed
> that you have tendency to dodge awkward
> questions and reply to lesser points.
FWIW, I agree that Richard has his head in the sand.
So does the Texas Court of Appeals and George W Bush, as detailed in this
investigative article from the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ws/0,1246,45186,00.html
Eric Perlin
> What if the next innocent person to hang were to
> be you, Michael 100?
There is no proof whatsoever that Michael 100 is innocent of murder.
Unless Michael 100's innocence is conclusively PROVEN, he should be executed.
Anyone who disagrees with me is a bleeding-heart liberal commie.
A Planet Visitor
"Eric Perlin" <ericp...@SPAMSUCKSprodigy.net> wrote in message
news:90pi5f$3rg0$2...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
Well, I can prove I have never been convicted of a murder.
And I believe Richard can offer the same proof. Can those
who were executed say the same?
But it's seem paradoxical that one who seemingly opposes
the DP, offers advise that a poster to this newsgroup 'maybe
should be executed.'
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Eric Perlin" <ericp...@SPAMSUCKSprodigy.net> wrote in message
> A Planet Visitor <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote...
> > Well, I can prove I have never been convicted of
> > a murder. And I believe Richard can offer the
> > same proof.
>
> conclusively prove you've never committed a murder.
>
> There is no conclusive evidence that you and Richard are innocent of murder.
> Therefore, you both ought to be executed. Just in case either of you might
have
> committed some murders at one time that no one successfully traced to you yet.
>
> Real justice means executing anyone and everyone who I suspect might be
guilty!
>
> If anyone disagrees with me, stop being such a whiny self-righteous
> bleeding-heart liberal commie pinko!
>
> > But it's seem paradoxical that one who seemingly
> > opposes the DP, offers advise that a poster to
> > this newsgroup 'maybe should be executed.'
>
>
I thought you might, 'idiot-boy.'
PV
Peter Morris
>
> Richard, I consider this one of the best responses I have read to
> your and Sharpe's off repeated mantra
*blush* Aw, gee, shucks ...
John Rennie
Well two have responded but not Richard. BTW Mr Perlin don't attack
pro-dp posters like Richard. He is more sensible than you even tho' you
are an anti which is why I want his answers not yours and for once not PV's.