Accounting: The best business degree to get ?
Mike
he says that accounting hasn't been a hot field for quite a few years.
But I still believe that if someone goes to college, and wants to
major in business, then accounting is still by far the best of the
business programs to major in.
If you had a child that wanted to major in business, but was unsure of
what specific business degree to get, what would you tell them if they
asked for your advice ?
Two of the most worthless business degrees as far as I'm concerned are
management and marketing. Of all the business degrees, I've known more
management and marketing majors who are unable to find work than in
any other business program.
A marketing degree ? What the hell will that get you ?
A management degree ? True Management talent is very, very rare. Can
the skill of management be taught from a book or in a class ? If you
look through the management courses offered by any school, you will
see that very few of them have any real use or value. An accounting
major can take the few useful management courses as electives.
Business Administration ? A broad schooling in a number of different
business areas but not more depth covered in each one.
Finance ? A decent major compared to the ones I've listed above, but
an accounting major can get into more finance jobs easier than a
finance major can get into accounting jobs. Just about every
accounting major takes one or two finance classes. If anything, an
accounting major can minor in finance and be just as marketable for
most finance jobs as a finance major
Am I missing any degrees ?
And of the degrees I listed above, which do you think best prepares
someone to run their own business ?
I believe that's an accounting degree.
I've written many times here that the accounting field is in decline.
Nothing will convince me otherwise.
But if you had a kid who was about to spend thousands of dollars going
to college for business, can you honestly say that a marketing,
management, business administration, or finance degree is better than
an accounting degree ?
Are there any other business degrees that I'm missing ?
What do you people think ?
Coach Mike
my daughter married a "Marketing" type.
Now I don't know the in's and out's, but what I do know is how much he
started out with and how much he is making now. He started out at right
around $28,000 a year, full benefits, and a nice car. Now ten years later a
different company and he is approaching $100,000. Monday through Friday, no
overtime and all the bennies. So I am not so sure that it is such a dumb
degree.
Mike C
"Mike" <MrStr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7cfd37d2.03012...@posting.google.com...
Todd Boyle
although it depends very much on the student's inclinations.
Law would be a lot smarter than any of the "business school"
choices. We're living in an age where lawyers and their
cops are running the whole show.
The software domain *should* be a very worthwhile and empowering
career, except for the fact it has entered a long night
of government protection and management, thru its proxies
Microsoft, IBM, and the telecoms providers. The only way
to make a decent living in software is to become a part of
the beast. Not fun, and not a good career choice.
Of course there are niches in the software domain but I'm
not recommending it to my son (15); the political and
regulatory component of software is just overwhelming now.
For these reasons http://www.gldialtone.com/theInfoGap.htm
I doubt anybody will read those reasons but there it is.
Todd
Wed, 22 Jan 2003 13:01:06 -0500, in alt.accounting, "Coach Mike"
<coac...@businessprofits.com> said,
David Newman
subject matter may be interesting and challenging, most accountants are
vastly underpaid for their contribution to the economy and to firms.
However, if possible, I would suggest a double major in management (say
accounting and marketing). This opens up greater opportunities and provides
for a broader study of management.
--
"The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those
who don't have it."
- George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
"Mike" <MrStr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7cfd37d2.03012...@posting.google.com...
Peter Saxton
Within reason of course!
Peter Saxton from London
pe...@petersaxton.co.uk
Ron Todd
David Newman wrote:
>
> I would tend to agree in avoiding the accounting profession. While the
> subject matter may be interesting and challenging, most accountants are
> vastly underpaid for their contribution to the economy and to firms.
>
> However, if possible, I would suggest a double major in management (say
> accounting and marketing). This opens up greater opportunities and provides
> for a broader study of management.
>
You would think so wouldn't you.
Unfortunately, I have found it not to be a valued combination.
Another example of a beautiful theory slain by an ugly reality.
--
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
* Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. *
* Unemployed for seven years, mistake of being an accountant. *
* Students, when someone tells you of your great future as *
* an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
*-------------------------------------------------------------*
Ron Todd
Mike wrote:
>
> Accounting isn't a perfect field to work in. Ron Todd is correct when
> he says that accounting hasn't been a hot field for quite a few years.
IMHO, it just followed a normal product curve.
Accounting now acts like a mature product.
I thought the writing was on the wall when it turned out over half the
fees came from Tax work.
>
> But I still believe that if someone goes to college, and wants to
> major in business, then accounting is still by far the best of the
> business programs to major in.
Maybe, maybe not.
You have to understand the history of the business degree.
Once upon a time there were Secretaries and Clerks (pronounced something
like Klarrkz).
Folks saw an opportunity to start "Business Schools" in the 1800s.
Eventually, colleges saw an opportunity to make money, which eventually
grew into the four and five year programs.
You start thinking about it, and things are not exactly has they appear
to be.
...
> Two of the most worthless business degrees as far as I'm concerned are
> management and marketing. Of all the business degrees, I've known more
> management and marketing majors who are unable to find work than in
> any other business program.
I have never seen much in the undergraduate management degree.
I think it is mostly for folks who already have a job and a two year
degree and need the tools to progress.
Marketing is where the big bucks are in business.
If you can get into it, it is the path to gold.
Why? Because it is a line service. It is what generates the income.
No marketing, sales suck, good chance of not making a profit, real good
chance of loosing the company.
Marketing is and always has been gold.
Problem it, it is very hard to get in to it.
They really go for the young, bright, creative types.
General consensus is you can't be bright and creative unless you are
young.
>
> ....True Management talent is very, very rare.
That is true, but if you do not have the tools, its is kind of hard to
accomplish anything in management.
Back in the draft days, the military used to give away the tools for
free.
> Finance ? A decent major compared to the ones I've listed above, but
No buts about it.
Finance majors have an in to Wall Street.
Accountants do not.
Accountants are famous for learning to look backward.
Finance teaches one to look forward.
> And of the degrees I listed above, which do you think best prepares
> someone to run their own business ?
>
> I believe that's an accounting degree.
I think you would be hard put to support that.
Most accounting firms I've seen were not well run.
If it wasn't for the franchise associated with the CPA and inheriting
the client list, I think there would be many more failures.
Some were lucky to get into a niche at a good time.
If the niche goes away, and they have their own cycles, then the firms
start to collapse.
One of the most prevalent models of sole proprietors I keep seeing is
the collapsing bag.
At retirement, the client list is too small to be worth selling.
> I've written many times here that the accounting field is in decline.
> Nothing will convince me otherwise.
IMHO, it is starting to bottom out.
I don't believe accounting will decline past a certain point of business
necessity.
I think it is approaching that point. Then the only problems will be
the tax lawyers nibbling away at the top for the high end tax jobs and
H&R Block nibbling away at the bottom. But, in the main, I think the
accounting and auditing part is reaching a point of stability.
>
> But if you had a kid who was about to spend thousands of dollars going
> to college for business, can you honestly say that a marketing,
> management, business administration, or finance degree is better than
> an accounting degree ?
Lets see if I can get this right: Arthur Levitt got to be head of the
New York Stock Exchange with a degree in Economics. He had or developed
some really great connections along the way.
Actually, connections are more important than the degree.
There is always a place for Bunky at Fettersham & Sons down on the
street with his degree in Art History from Harvard with the gentlemen's
B (2.6 gpa) and his membership at The Country Club.
Mike
I would be very interested in hearing your specific reasons as to why
you told your kids this. Especially since you're a CPA yourself.
"Pedro Valdes, CPA" <pva...@uwsa.edu> wrote in message news:<3E3031D6...@uwsa.edu>...
> --
David
"Ron Todd" <rlt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3E30830A...@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> Mike wrote:
> >
> > Accounting isn't a perfect field to work in. Ron Todd is correct when
> > he says that accounting hasn't been a hot field for quite a few years.
>
> IMHO, it just followed a normal product curve.
> Accounting now acts like a mature product.
> I thought the writing was on the wall when it turned out over half the
> fees came from Tax work.
>
The growth area of accounting appears to relate to strategy development, but
this requires a less mechanistic approach to learning and thinking than is
the current norm. Also, public policy reform largely drives accounting
demand. Look to the reform pipeline for signals on future demand growth.
> >
> > But I still believe that if someone goes to college, and wants to
> > major in business, then accounting is still by far the best of the
> > business programs to major in.
>
> Maybe, maybe not.
> You have to understand the history of the business degree.
> Once upon a time there were Secretaries and Clerks (pronounced something
> like Klarrkz).
> Folks saw an opportunity to start "Business Schools" in the 1800s.
> Eventually, colleges saw an opportunity to make money, which eventually
> grew into the four and five year programs.
>
> You start thinking about it, and things are not exactly has they appear
> to be.
As a former student of the college with the 2nd oldest business degree in
the world (Haas @ UC Berkeley), I had cause to investigate such matters. The
credibility of these programs was hard earned (although it appears the
battle still has some fight left). The gradual reduction in speculative
practices and guesswork in exchange for a more 'scientific' approach to
business has been largely behind the greater strengths and managed
complexity of the contemporary economic and business environment.
Recall that lawyers, too, had to fight for academic credibility not so long
ago. The profession was previously taught as a trade, with an apprentice
learning first hand from a seasoned professional and spending no time at a
university. Imagine trying to train lawyers that way today! Business is not
so different. Complex problems require complex solutions that generally
require specialized knowledge of the issues underlying these problems. It
may even be the case that much of the US Business School system still
suffers from a *lack* of specialization (e.g. a Business Administration
major at Haas spends little more than 3 semesters actually studying business
courses, with the remainder of the 4 year degree spent studying non-business
courses, such as liberal arts, that have little or nothing to do with the
demands of business). The Australian business education environment remains
more specialized than that in the US. One result of this greater
specialization is that Australian employers value the business degree
education in its own right, rather than viewing it as simply a signal of
worker productivity potential such that all majors are more or less 'lumped'
together for recruiting purposes (as often occurs in the US).
> > Two of the most worthless business degrees as far as I'm concerned are
> > management and marketing. Of all the business degrees, I've known more
> > management and marketing majors who are unable to find work than in
> > any other business program.
>
> I have never seen much in the undergraduate management degree.
> I think it is mostly for folks who already have a job and a two year
> degree and need the tools to progress.
Agreed. A management major leads to 21 year olds graduating and expecting a
CEO role without experience or understanding of the need to integrate a
business with its external environment (capital markets, regulators etc.). A
manager without accounting savvy is like a car driver without eyes. That is
why more and more corporates are recruiting CPAs to senior management
positions.
> Marketing is where the big bucks are in business.
> If you can get into it, it is the path to gold.
>
> Why? Because it is a line service. It is what generates the income.
> No marketing, sales suck, good chance of not making a profit, real good
> chance of loosing the company.
> Marketing is and always has been gold.
>
> Problem it, it is very hard to get in to it.
> They really go for the young, bright, creative types.
> General consensus is you can't be bright and creative unless you are
> young.
Marketing continues to struggle for credibility much more so than does
accounting. Most marketing 'knowledge' is simple common sense, or at least
can be created by one with little or no formal training. This, again, is not
the case for the specialized knowledge required in accounting.
> >
> > ....True Management talent is very, very rare.
>
> That is true, but if you do not have the tools, its is kind of hard to
> accomplish anything in management.
> Back in the draft days, the military used to give away the tools for
> free.
One of the most important tools for success in management, IMHO, is
accounting! What is a corporate manager if not a leader who requires
information management skills of the highest order?
> > Finance ? A decent major compared to the ones I've listed above, but
>
> No buts about it.
> Finance majors have an in to Wall Street.
> Accountants do not.
> Accountants are famous for learning to look backward.
> Finance teaches one to look forward.
I generally agree with this rough summary of the differences between
accounting and finance, but I believe it is a false dichotomy to imply that
one should either study accounting OR finance. I study both, majoring in
Accounting AND Corporate Finance (and Political Science, and previously
Monetary Economics, but that's another discussion!). I find finance to be
more interesting, with greater scope for creative and innovative thinking
than has accounting ('creative finance' being a positive descriptor!), but
the use of accounting information is such an important input to financial
analysis that ignorance of it is dangerous! The intersection of the
disciplines makes for some particularly interesting and difficult problems
that senior corporate managers, accounting professionals and standards
setters, and capital markets participants must all face.
> > And of the degrees I listed above, which do you think best prepares
> > someone to run their own business ?
> >
> > I believe that's an accounting degree.
>
> I think you would be hard put to support that.
> Most accounting firms I've seen were not well run.
> If it wasn't for the franchise associated with the CPA and inheriting
> the client list, I think there would be many more failures.
> Some were lucky to get into a niche at a good time.
> If the niche goes away, and they have their own cycles, then the firms
> start to collapse.
> One of the most prevalent models of sole proprietors I keep seeing is
> the collapsing bag.
> At retirement, the client list is too small to be worth selling.
>
> > I've written many times here that the accounting field is in decline.
> > Nothing will convince me otherwise.
>
> IMHO, it is starting to bottom out.
> I don't believe accounting will decline past a certain point of business
> necessity.
>
> I think it is approaching that point. Then the only problems will be
> the tax lawyers nibbling away at the top for the high end tax jobs and
> H&R Block nibbling away at the bottom. But, in the main, I think the
> accounting and auditing part is reaching a point of stability.
You think that auditing markets are in a stable equilibrium?
Also, recall that not all those who study accounting will enter and remain
in the public accounting realm.
Also, consider the impact when US GAAP makes the inevitable convergence with
International Standards. There is a global market for accountants that has,
for the most part, not yet opened up to US accountants due to continued
irrationalities in US standards that must be learned by US accounting
students (LIFO inventory costing is but one salient example).
> > But if you had a kid who was about to spend thousands of dollars going
> > to college for business, can you honestly say that a marketing,
> > management, business administration, or finance degree is better than
> > an accounting degree ?
>
> Lets see if I can get this right: Arthur Levitt got to be head of the
> New York Stock Exchange with a degree in Economics. He had or developed
> some really great connections along the way.
Economics is an excellent logical and intellectual discipline that sometimes
remains divorced from practical applications, especially at 'grass-roots'
levels (e.g. small business applications), whilst accounting tends to often
be focussed on applications but can have less solid theoretical or
intellectual foundations. Wouldn't it be nice to combine these positive
attributes? That is the goal of current efforts to develop a conceptual
framework of accounting.
> Actually, connections are more important than the degree.
I have often heard this said of an MBA degree and, having seen that the
coursework of an MBA is little different to much of the coursework that I
have done at undergraduate level, I am inclined to agree. That said, perhaps
the choice of venue for an MBA and the prioritization of time to networking
whilst there, are the two most important variables to those undertaking an
MBA? Was this your experience, Ron?
> There is always a place for Bunky at Fettersham & Sons down on the
> street with his degree in Art History from Harvard with the gentlemen's
> B (2.6 gpa) and his membership at The Country Club.
Sounds like we all ought to begin shorting 'Fettersham & Sons' and go long
in Goldman Sachs or UBS Warburg. I certainly have no desire to work
alongside an Art History major with a 2.6 GPA and I look forward to the
opportunity of being on the other side of that individual's deals!
Mike
quite sure what you mean. Can you explain it again ?
Most people I've ever known who got management degrees worked in
retail places like grocery stores, K-marts, etc. And like what you
said, these were people who were already working in the retail field
to begin with.
I understand somewhat what you say about education. Whenever any field
begins to grow or gain popularity, a college or educational
institution will begin having " programs " for each new field.
And even when the fields are dying, the programs live on. I just saw
another commercial for a local training institute that is still trying
to recruit students to learn skills that can be used in the " hot " IT
field. Of course, the fact that the bottom has fallen out of the IT
field makes no difference to this place.
Ron Todd <rlt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3E30830A...@ix.netcom.com>...
Mike
looked at as a " profession, " then it is similar to law, engineering,
medicine, etc.
In other words, the idea that you will make good money in accounting
and always be in demand because as an accountant you have unique
skills.
But in reality, many accountants don't make much money and finding a
good accounting job is harder than ever before.
"David Newman" <dane...@mts.net> wrote in message news:<KOYX9.28835$7_.1...@news1.mts.net>...
Mike
major with the 2.6 GPA are actually more true than many people are led
to believe.
A reality of life is that many ordinary or less than ordinary people
can get ahead by knowing the right people and making all the right
connections and social groups.
A good book I would recomend is the " Fountainhead " by Ayn Rand.
There is a character in the book named Peter Keating. He plays an
architect who gets very far in life. How does he do it ? Not by
ability, and not by working hard. Keating gets ahead by having all the
right connections, knowing how to use people, taking credit for
other's work, and knowing how to present an
" image " of oneself that is not in line with the true reality of
one's abilities.
There are plenty of Peter Keatings in the world today.
"David" <gowes...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<iX2Y9.31810$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
Mike
Did you go part-time while working full time at your accounting job
years ago ?
What did you think of the MBA program you were in ?
I've often heard that many MBA programs are nothing more than
glorified bachelor degrees. What is your opinion of them ?
"David" <gowes...@NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote in message news:<iX2Y9.31810$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
Todd Stephens
Mike <MrStr...@hotmail.com> typed:
>
> Two of the most worthless business degrees as far as I'm concerned are
> management and marketing. Of all the business degrees, I've known more
> management and marketing majors who are unable to find work than in
> any other business program.
>
> A marketing degree ? What the hell will that get you ?
>
Most jobs that I have come across in business will hire someone with an
accounting degree before any other. The actual marketing field being a
notable exception. I don't agree with these people saying the money is in
marketing. My wife works in marketing. She makes less than I do and I
haven't even finished school yet. It all depends on the company of course.
The good money in the marketing field is in the advertising area. People
working for corporate marketing units do no better than anyone else in the
corporation.
Generally, the marketing and management degrees are thought of as being
"easy". A typical marketing or management major at my school is someone who
started out in finance or accounting and could not "hack it". In the
company I work for (with some 125k employees), job postings come across
every day. 90% of them list an accounting degree as the preferred
requirement. This includes jobs not only in accounting fields but also in
areas like logistics and purchasing. Someone with an accounting degree has
demonstrated not just an understanding of GAAP, but also the ability to
analyze and utilize information.... very important traits in business these
days.
Finance is a decent degree, and I think accounting majors would do well to
minor in it if they plan on working in corporate America or sitting for
their CMA. A baccalaureate Finance degree is relatively worthless for
anything other than corporate finance. If Wall Street or investment banking
is your goal, a masters-level degree in Finance is considered entry-level
anymore.
You forgot the MIS degree. These popped-up all over the place in the mid to
late 90's. I don't see much value in them either. If you want to do that
type of work you are better served by majoring in computer science. The
programming and other computer related courses taught in the MIS program are
too watered-down to be of much real value. Similar to the generalist
Business Administration degree these days. They can only cover so much
/different/ material in one curriculum.
--
Todd Stephens
Dean
preparation for admission to top tier MBA programs, with lots of
graduate-level courses in calculus-based and other quantitative courses.
Take statistics and calculus. Minor in (or do a double-major in) accounting,
with enough courses to sit for the CPA exam.
That rigorous undergrad training will enable one to score highly on the
GMAT and, later, be a natural in MBA level finance courses.
After a couple of years of responsible work experience, apply to the best
MBA program you can swing financially. Many employers will pay for your MBA
courses if you take a part-time or executive program. The top salaried
jobs, with an MBA from a top tier school, probably still are the financial
consulting jobs on Wall Street.
Dean Eveland
Ron Todd
Mike wrote:
>
> Ron, how did you get your MBA ?
Full time student, G.I. Bill, California State University, Fresno.
>
> Did you go part-time while working full time at your accounting job
> years ago ?
No. I went into accounting after college as I couldn't find a job in
Marketing.
>
> What did you think of the MBA program you were in ?
I thought it was very good. It taught me the tools of business.
However, as Forbes indirectly pointed out, the big name outfits only
hire from the name Business Schools.
>
> I've often heard that many MBA programs are nothing more than
> glorified bachelor degrees. What is your opinion of them ?
>
I'm sure some of them are. Particularly the ones in the non traditional
and alternative "schools."
I don't think the ones that are in traditional schools are, unless they
have really trashed the curriculum since I graduated.
One of the problems we have is what business should be as opposed to
what it frequently is. The Peter Keating thing, the stumbling into a
niche thing, the protected industry thing, and such. Another problem we
have is different levels of government just working overtime to kill off
small and mid sized businesses. Someone was mentioning yesterday, maybe
it was Limbaugh, that is why so much of the biggest in businesses
contribute so much money to the Democratic party, the party is helping
to kill their competition. You notice how we are heading toward one
large international CPA firm. I notice the SEC, now that Andersen is
out of the way, is starting the "death march" of KPMG. (lets hope that's
a joke)
...
Ron Todd
Mike wrote:
>
> Ron, I've seen you mention the collapsing bag model before but I'm not
> quite sure what you mean. Can you explain it again ?
Fellow starts a business and builds it to a certain size. Then, he
doesn't maintain the business and it starts to loose market share,
customers, and revenue. By the time he is ready to retire, there is
nothing there to pass on to the next generation or sell for retirement
money. The business ends up like a collapsing paper bag. I found it
useful to sum up a rather large number of professional practices that
I've run across over the years. It is the end result of the failure to
maintain the business.
>
> Most people I've ever known who got management degrees worked in
> retail places like grocery stores, K-marts, etc. And like what you
> said, these were people who were already working in the retail field
> to begin with.
I think may of the them have done quite well that way.
Sad about K-Mart. AIR, they have had management problems before.
Just an aside on the "grocery business." That is a fierce thing to get
in. The margins suck and the competition is cut throat. I can't see
why anyone would choose to do it, unless they were born into it. Toward
the end K-Mart got into the grocery business with the Big K-Marts.
>
> I understand somewhat what you say about education. Whenever any field
> begins to grow or gain popularity, a college or educational
> institution will begin having " programs " for each new field.
Yes, but.... I think when something really becomes hot, and the
colleges gear up to meet the demand, it is probably too late to get into
the field. The peak will be gone by the time the next batch gets
through the four years of school. Actually, accounting held up quit
well for close to a decade as being hot. In retrospect, that was pretty
good.
>
> And even when the fields are dying, the programs live on. I just saw
> another commercial for a local training institute that is still trying
> to recruit students to learn skills that can be used in the " hot " IT
> field. Of course, the fact that the bottom has fallen out of the IT
> field makes no difference to this place.
I think when you see the alternative education outfits getting into the
field it indicates the field is over the peak.
Lately, I haven't seen anything that looked future hot. I notice even
cellular looks like it has peaked. (kind of got the hint when they put
games and digital cameras in the phones ) After all, you can only
squeeze so many phone minutes out of a market.
--
Mike
marketing degrees are " a dime a dozen " and that they don't really
have much worth in the business world.
But I think that's also a description that's becoming increasingly
true about accounting as well. On the one hand, I believe strongly
that accounting skills are actually very valuable to possess. But on
the other hand, I think more and more companies don't see it this way.
I remember when so many people I met 10 years ago were majoring or
planning to major in MIS and how having this degree was supposed to be
so valuable. I never knew that much about the MIS degree but at the
time I remember that some people told me how it was worth much more
than a degree in Computer Science.
"Todd Stephens" <yadayada-...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<k7EY9.130214$Sa3.3...@twister.tampabay.rr.com>...
Mike
think it's a very weak degree for helping someone get a decent job
after college. Aside from knowing and studying economic theory, how
marketable is an economic degree ?
One guy I knew who majored in it was someone who I really think was
hurt by the fact that he majored in economics. A very bright guy, with
great people and leadership skills. He couldn't find a job to save his
life until an insurance company hired him. And he has done fairly well
in the insurance field.
But when he first got out of college, you would have think he had some
kind of disease. Places wouldn't touch him.
"Dean" <deve...@world.cox.net> wrote in message news:<K4JY9.45177$ui1.8...@news1.east.cox.net>...
Mike
it pretty quick.
I believe the University of Pittsbrugh has a one year full-time MBA
program. If I was getting an MBA or any Master's degree, I would much
rather go full-time and finish it in a year than working full-time and
having to do part time master's work for 3,4, or 5 years.
Of course, going to school full-time is pretty hard to do when you're
working full-time already.
Ron Todd <rlt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3E338BCB...@ix.netcom.com>...
Mike
stuck. I worked in that business for a few years and got to know many
people in it. One problem in the store I worked at was that promotions
to management were based on years of union membership rather than
competence.
I remember the job postings for various full-time job opportunities
that came open once in awhile like Frozen Food manager, or Produce
assistant manager, etc. The person who got the job was always the one
who had been around the longest. Whether they were the best fit for
the job did not matter. 8 years of union membership always beat six
years.
And some of the most incompetent people I've ever worked with were
also the ones who ended up in many grocery store management type jobs.
These weren't college educated people. None of that mattered. These
were simply folks who had been with the company the longest.
Ron, let me run something by you to get your opinion. A friend of mine
has a son who wants to work for the government as some kind of
intelligence officer. He wants to get training in intelligence
gathering so that he can work for the FBI, CIA, or some other
government agency or even for a private company doing research type
work. When I asked about how one gets into such a field, my friend
told me that there are actually colleges which are starting put
together programs to train people for entrance into the intelligence
field. I guess up to until a few years ago, there were no programs of
any kind for this type of work. But as with so many other things,
colleges feel the need to design programs and convince people they
need these programs for entrance into a field.
Anyhow, one school in particular offers a four year degree in research
intelligence. My friend's son is considering going there. I'm not sure
what to think about it. Although it's true that because of Sept 11,
there is a greater need ( supposedly ) for intelligence workers, the
fact is that people have been becoming intelligence specialists for
years in the vaious government agencies who DID NOT go to a four year
college to get training in the field.
So I'm wondering if my friend's son is going to get training that he
doesn't really need since so many people before him have got into
these kind of jobs without any four year degrees in intelligence. What
do you think ?
Ron Todd <rlt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3E338F3A...@ix.netcom.com>...
Ron Todd
Mike wrote:
>
> One of my accounting professors made the comment to us once that
> marketing degrees are " a dime a dozen " and that they don't really
> have much worth in the business world.
The first rule is "follow the money."
If there are no accounting students, the accounting professor has no
job.
If you check into salaries, you will find that Marketing is paid more
than Accounting.
Marketing is a direct revenue producer, Accounting is an overhead
function.
>
> But I think that's also a description that's becoming increasingly
> true about accounting as well. On the one hand, I believe strongly
> that accounting skills are actually very valuable to possess. But on
> the other hand, I think more and more companies don't see it this way.
The second rule is "what they say is not relevant, what they do is
relevant."
A lot of folks in business say they want a lot of things, the things
they actually pay for are frequently quite different.
--
Ron Todd
Mike wrote:
>
> Most people who work in the grocery business regret it but they feel
> stuck. I worked in that business for a few years and got to know many
> people in it. One problem in the store I worked at was that promotions
> to management were based on years of union membership rather than
> competence.
Depends on whether your working for the company or at a grocery store.
They have separate tracks. AIR, most grocery stores are union and run
it the way you say. AIR, Albertsons used to hire its future corporate
managers out of the U. of Idaho, Boise.
>
> Ron, let me run something by you to get your opinion. A friend of mine
> has a son who wants to work for the government as some kind of
> intelligence officer. He wants to get training in intelligence
> gathering so that he can work for the FBI, CIA, or some other
> government agency
He can check the web sites, those folks are always recruiting.
Try
or something like that.
AIR, FBI was hot for Lawyers and Accountants who were also high
achievers.
He will have to check CIA's web site, AIR, the analysts came from all
sorts of backgrounds.
I don't know where military intelligence gets their people, maybe they
start at the Academies.
Todd Stephens
Ron Todd <rlt...@ix.netcom.com> typed:
>
> Marketing is a direct revenue producer, Accounting is an overhead
> function.
>
I'd have to disagree. Working for a retail company, I'd say the only true
revenue generator is the actual retailing function. The marketing function
attempts to help the retail function do so, but they spend more money than
they actually make as far as I can tell. And again, if you are working for
a large corporation, marketing people don't make any more money than the
finance people or the accounting people or the logistics people..... etc.
--
Todd Stephens
Pedro Valdes, CPA
enjoy accounting? I sure don’t. It’s a job, a tedious one at that and it really doesn’t pay all
that well when you consider the cost of education, liability and continuing education. IMO,
accounting is a ‘settle for’ occupation. I’d hate to think of any kid ‘dreaming’ of being a CPA.
Ron Todd
"Pedro Valdes, CPA" wrote:
>
> Mike I want my kids to make a living doing something that they actually enjoy. Do you actually
> enjoy accounting? I sure don’t. It’s a job, a tedious one at that and it really doesn’t pay all
> that well when you consider the cost of education, liability and continuing education. IMO,
> accounting is a ‘settle for’ occupation. I’d hate to think of any kid ‘dreaming’ of being a CPA.
Frankly, I would be happy if I could just get an accounting job.
I actually enjoy it, tedious repetition and all.
Ron Todd
Without Marketing, even at such a low level as you wouldn't call it
Marketing, there is no Sales.
For example, on a cold call a salesman has to give a Marketing
presentation to the prospect. You might call it a Sales Pitch, but it
has a large Marketing component in it. Which is why high end, non
technical products, are frequently sold by those Marketing majors.
Depends on your Corporation and how necessary the Controller and its
function is.
Todd Boyle
>Mike I want my kids to make a living doing something that they actually enjoy. Do you actually
>enjoy accounting? I sure don’t. It’s a job, a tedious one at that and it really doesn’t pay all
>that well when you consider the cost of education, liability and continuing education. IMO,
>accounting is a ‘settle for’ occupation. I’d hate to think of any kid ‘dreaming’ of being a CPA.
>
I agree 1000% - at least, as applied to conventional
accounting practices (tax and GAAP).
However, I have found a lot of satisfaction in my career
since I shifted my focus away from the "publishing"
practice (recharacterizing and polishing numbers to
serve the client's tax and writeup goals).
For at least 5 years I have been working instead on
systems to connect the buyer and seller with each other
directly, to more or less, force them to agree with
each other as to date, amount and character of what
they've bought and sold. Once that kind of integration
is happening there is little need for today's accountants
to clean up all the discrepancies. And there is a lot
less "moral hazard" for accountants as well
In conclusion - working to enhance communication between
the individuals/businesses is very very satisfying, and
yes, you can make a living at it.
Take this: http://www.gldialtone.com/metadataPledge.htm
-Todd Boyle CPA - Kirkland WA
Pedro Valdes, CPA
Ron Todd wrote:
> "Pedro Valdes, CPA" wrote:
> >
> > Mike I want my kids to make a living doing something that they actually enjoy. Do you actually
> > enjoy accounting? I sure don’t. It’s a job, a tedious one at that and it really doesn’t pay all
> > that well when you consider the cost of education, liability and continuing education. IMO,
> > accounting is a ‘settle for’ occupation. I’d hate to think of any kid ‘dreaming’ of being a CPA.
>
> Frankly, I would be happy if I could just get an accounting job.
Ditto.
>
> I actually enjoy it, tedious repetition and all.
>
You're scaring me.
Mike
I would want to do it sitting in a cubicle 12-14 hours a day.
So no, although I like accounting, I'm not " passionate " about it. I
see it as a very useful skill to have no matter what field you're in.
But in the past year or so I've been revaluating my career choice and
wondering if I should completely give up the idea of working strictly
in an accounting job.
I don't know if I want to spend the next 30-40 years in a declining
field that I'm not passionate about and that I don't see any more than
being simply just
" a job. "
I'll put it this way. If I could have a job that I enjoyed the hell
out of for 20 grand a year, I would take that job rather than working
in a stuffy accounting cubicle for 50 grand a year.
What has been your observations about others in the accounting field
including CPAs ? Have you found that lots of them have similar
feelings that you do ?
Do lots of them regret getting into or staying in accounting ?
What has been your observations about other accountants ? I've found
the majority of them to be stuffy, non-personable types that I
wouldn't want to
spend an ounce of time with outside the office.
"Pedro Valdes, CPA" <pva...@uwsa.edu> wrote in message news:<3E36AF87...@uwsa.edu>...
> Mike I want my kids to make a living doing something that they actually enjoy. Do you actually
> enjoy accounting? I sure don’t. It’s a job, a tedious one at that and it really doesn’t pay all
> that well when you consider the cost of education, liability and continuing education. IMO,
> accounting is a ‘settle for’ occupation. I’d hate to think of any kid ‘dreaming’ of being a CPA.
> --
Mike
And have you considered getting out of a stricly accounting job and
doing some other job where you can also make use of your accounting
skills ?
"Pedro Valdes, CPA" <pva...@uwsa.edu> wrote in message news:<3E36CE91...@uwsa.edu>...
> Ron Todd wrote:
>
> > "Pedro Valdes, CPA" wrote:
> > >
> > > Mike I want my kids to make a living doing something that they actually enjoy. Do you actually
> > > enjoy accounting? I sure don’t. It’s a job, a tedious one at that and it really doesn’t pay all
> > > that well when you consider the cost of education, liability and continuing education. IMO,
> > > accounting is a ‘settle for’ occupation. I’d hate to think of any kid ‘dreaming’ of being a CPA.
> >
> > Frankly, I would be happy if I could just get an accounting job.
>
> Ditto.
>
> >
> > I actually enjoy it, tedious repetition and all.
> >
>
> You're scaring me.
>
> >
> > --
> >
> > *-------------------------------------------------------------*
> > * Ronald Lee Todd M.B.A., C.P.A. *
> > * Unemployed for seven years, mistake of being an accountant. *
> > * Students, when someone tells you of your great future as *
> > * an accountant, ask him to show you the job. *
> > *-------------------------------------------------------------*
>
> --
big willie
I will graduate with a JD in May of this year. I am considering doing more
schooling and obtaining a business/accounting degree, possibly an MBA, as
well. The strict reason is that there is a severe lack of legal jobs in
Columbus, Ohio, and I am not in a position to move to where the jobs are, so
to speak.
Jobs in Columbus, unless you are 25, on law review, and top 10% of the
class, are almost impossible to find. I like numbers and money- money
doesn't commit torts and commercial paper law, secured transactions, and
contracts are static, for the most part.
I was thinking accounting strictly from a marketing aspect- I dig tax law,
plan on doing some estate planning, possibly some real estate and finance
law, so I thought the knowledge of accounting laws would give me additional
skills to bring to the table. You guys are decrying the accounting
profession, somewhat. Do any of you see any value in a JD/BS in
accounting/MBA combination?
--
I am not an attorney, and none of the information considered herein should
be construed as legal advice;
To get legal advice, you should consult a competent attorney.
"Mike" <MrStr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7cfd37d2.03012...@posting.google.com...
Ron Todd
big willie wrote:
>
> I have been combing this topic, and I would like some general advice.
>
> I will graduate with a JD in May of this year. I am considering doing more
> schooling and obtaining a business/accounting degree, possibly an MBA, as
> well. The strict reason is that there is a severe lack of legal jobs in
> Columbus, Ohio, and I am not in a position to move to where the jobs are, so
> to speak.
>
> Jobs in Columbus, unless you are 25, on law review, and top 10% of the
> class, are almost impossible to find. I like numbers and money- money
> doesn't commit torts and commercial paper law, secured transactions, and
> contracts are static, for the most part.
>
> I was thinking accounting strictly from a marketing aspect- I dig tax law,
> plan on doing some estate planning, possibly some real estate and finance
> law, so I thought the knowledge of accounting laws would give me additional
> skills to bring to the table. You guys are decrying the accounting
> profession, somewhat. Do any of you see any value in a JD/BS in
> accounting/MBA combination?
IMHO, at the present time, as a lucrative career, being a Tax Lawyer is
much better than being an Accountant.
Last time I saw the numbers, half of Public Accounting's money came from
tax fees.
In your position, with no other information than provided, if I was in
your situation, I would opt for the MS Taxation or that sneaky LLB that
lawyers have that is really an MS Taxation.
Timothy C
tax law, then why not do a BBA(Account) or LLB degree then work in a
CPA firm or Tax law firm?
Dean
"big willie" <poo...@poop.net> wrote in message
news:97X_9.915$4y4.6...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
Do any of you see any value in a JD/BS in accounting/MBA combination?
==========
Sure, on Wall Street or corporate management.
Dean Eveland
JD/MBA (Georgetown)
Mike
Being a tax lawyer beats being an accountant.
Ron Todd <rlt...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<3E3C33EE...@ix.netcom.com>...