Vanitas Vanitorum
gardenia
she is not satan anymore than you are God
"Mark" <ad...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106011111...@asarian-host.net...
: Yes, this is a post about Liz.
:
: I saw "The Devil's Advocate" the other day; starring Al Paccino as Satan
: himself. His counter-part, Keanu Reeves, gets slowly, but surely, suckered
: in by him. Towards the end, there is a beautiful scene, about free will,
: where Al Paccino tells a rather upset Keanu Reeves that he never made him
: do anything; that it was all his free will; that nobody ever followed him
: under duress; that he never corrupted people; but that, instead, people
all
: followed him, freely and willingly. And so they did--in droves.
:
: And why? Vanity; man's greatest vice, as Al Paccino told Keanu. They were
: all eagerly in line to join the club; for Al, much like our Liz, really
: forced no one; he just catered to their ego, played on that greatest vice:
: vanity; and they all, without exception, kissed his feet while he was
: kissing their ass.
:
: And so I see people squirm and stoop to get into Liz' good graces; the
: gluttonous hands reach out, all too eagerly, for Liz to drop in a few
: soothing words. And I must confess, I have never before seen anyone this
: good at it. It is awesome.
:
: Most people are still afraid of her, though. But, not too deep down, they
: love the attention; they love how, finally, someone in their lives pays
: them some attention--even if they really know it is fake. But it is better
: than nothing, eh? And it is, of course, especially when you have been
: abused all your life, thrilling to finally have all that power on your
side
: for a change; to have some of the "glitter" of the abuser rub off on
: you--if only by association; to not be with the downtrodden, for a change,
: but to be high on that horse, having the "strong" people on your side--as
: opposed to having them trample all over you.
:
: Like the classic tale, there is, of course, a price to be paid. Not that
: you really have to do anything; no, nothing so drastic. You just need to
: look the other way every once in a while. You just have to pretend not to
: see. And so, when Liz and gang are beating up on Carey, a once so
respected
: person, who never hurt anyone in his life, people look away. Or, at best,
: they think: "Thank God, she is not after me!" That is the deal.
:
: Liz empowers people; very subtlely, rather refinedly, too. She empowers
: them through their own vanity. When, at long last, a few of her many
: victims speak up, she gently pulls her followers aside, and says, in shiny
: new sheep's clothing that would make any wolf jealous, "Two wrongs don't
: make a right; you need to speak out against them, for what they are doing
: is not right." And because she is on your side, you feel strong; and you
: feel a warm glow of selective conscience welling up in you. For there you
: have it, your chance to be righteous, in public, to finally speak out
: against evil--and you do not have to fear anything either, for Liz is on
: your side this time! And so, ere long, she has you clubbing innocent
: people, alongside with her. And worse, has you feel good about it, too.
:
: And then you start to making glowing posts, about sock-puppets being bad,
: and all. And good posts, too; rather honorable sheets of prose. And, from
: now on, when a victim calls the abuser an asshole, for instance, you will
: not stand for that any longer, because "It is very offensive to call
: someone names; my mother did it too, and I feel really compelled to speak
: out to you now." And you feel good about yourself. Not only that, but you
: convince yourself, "See? Liz is not really all that bad. Actually, there
: would be peace if only the others would let up on her." And you really DO
: feel good about yourself; because that little voice, that used to be your
: conscience, is readily stilled, since you finally spoke out against
"evil".
: She has you beat up her victims, and has you feel like a real humanitarian
: for doing so. And why? Because she catered to your ego, alleviated you of
: your slumbering feelings of guilt for having stayed silent for so long,
: whilst now you are finally combating "evil" again. My henpecked heroes!
: Vanity, man's greatest vice.
:
: Then outsiders come in, bluntly posting how not Liz is the abuser, but how
: she is really the victim. And you feel more empowered than ever; for that
: little voice--that has grown smaller, but just won't go away--can again,
: because of that outside validation, be covered with a new layer of
: innocence.
:
: All you have to do, is occasionally look the other way. And it is true,
she
: never made anyone do it. She never twisted your head; you just turned it
: yourself; because she showed you a prettier picture of yourself than what
: you were willing to face. Vanity, man's greatest vice.
:
: For Carey, and especially for our beloved Debster, I will no longer look
: the other way.
:
: - Mark
:
: System Administrator asarian-host.net
:
: ---
: "If you were supposed to understand it,
: we wouldn't call it code." - FedEx
:
:
:
:
:
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James
<wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<200106011329...@asarian-host.net> the following:
>for all the former posters
>from all the former posters
>we've heard before
>brought us here
>sent us away.
>we are all
>those of us
>lets go back to being former posters Mr. Mark.
>
Your leader speaks.
Bikerbabe
category and undoubtedly many of you always have...I have on many occasions
spoken up and talked to Liz about some of the stuff she has done and the
comments that she has made, the difference when we do it, is that we
normally take it to email because I prefer to hear both sides to the story
and anytime it gets brought out here, nothing ever gets resolved....not
usually anyways.I prefer to do it that way with many of the people here
because otherwise, every rabid dog gets involved and then I never seem to
get to the bottom of things. Many issues are left unresolved and they still
are.
I do not allow anyone to tell me what tune I am supposed to skip to...never.
I know that many of you believe otherwise and so be it. I am not here to try
and prove myself to anyone or so that people can sooth my pain.
I have more that I could say to this but I need to get to work but I am sure
that I will come back to a flurry of stuff.
Oh and by the way...I do flame the troll people because they are not regular
posters here and most of the time they are just here to cause havoc and
trouble.I don't feel bad about that, so shoot me, it might make me feel
better or at least that would take the pain away.
*sigh
bikerbabe
specialk
"James" <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message
news:b79fhtk9pr6ls6dns...@4ax.com...
she is not my leader, nor mark nor liz ( as in your case)
nor deb, although I do feel a strong affection and respect towards her.
It's called free will, and in conjunction with my brain and heart I try to
put it to good use.
I am so tired of people saying that everyone here thinks collectively.
specialk
specialk
directed or encorporated you... but I could be wrong, I can't read
minds(damn that would be a handy skill!). Anyway I for one do not relate to
your friendship with Liz, but I do not see you as a prole who is lead by the
nose either.... I respect your strong opinions and how you defend your
friends with no apologies. There are people who you keep friends with who
don't like each other, and I think that's great and admirable. I definitely
do not put you in the catagory of this post... I have heard you voice your
opinions even when they contradict Liz's opinions. Although I do feel as
though there are other people for which Mark's post rings really true, I
have a lot of respect for you as a strong person.
just thought you should know that I felt this way and I'm sure lots of
others do too
specialk
"Bikerbabe" <bike...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:KUOR6.342678$166.7...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
Liz
proclivities might bring them closer to Satan, then remembered I don't
*believe in Satan, so never mind.
I would wonder about whether or not everyone who cares about me realizes
*they were just flamed six ways to Sunday and called fawning toadies.
Liz
I can think of at least three former posters Suzanne does not speak for.
Liz
Ever.
James
<spec...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<42PR6.187$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca> the following:
>
>"James" <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message
>news:b79fhtk9pr6ls6dns...@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 08:36:07 -0500, windswept
>> <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
>> <200106011329...@asarian-host.net> the following:
>>
>> >for all the former posters
>> >from all the former posters
>> >we've heard before
>> >brought us here
>> >sent us away.
>> >we are all
>> >those of us
>>
>> >lets go back to being former posters Mr. Mark.
>> >
>> Your leader speaks.
>
>she is not my leader,
Apparently you don't realize it, but all that *group-speak*
is not something I made up... it's not *my* words.
I reckon if she's not *your* leader, you might do well in
telling *her* that instead of me.
*I* don't speak for you, I *know* I don't, I don't *believe*
I can, nor do I try to.
Obviously that ain't the case here though, is it?
>nor mark nor liz ( as in your case) nor deb, although I do
>feel a strong affection and respect towards her. It's called
>free will, and in conjunction with my brain and heart I try
>to put it to good use.
>I am so tired of people saying that everyone here thinks
>collectively.
>
Then we are even. I am so tired of people who *DO* think
collectively... and I ain't making this shit up either.
Once again... those are *not* my words, but they are most
obviously the words of someone so deluded they believe they
speak for everyone... or should I say... "all of us".
And by the way... you obviously aren't *that* tired of
people saying that everyone here thinks collectively seeing
as how you're doing just that. :o) Or did you think no one
would notice. Can't get much more hypocritical than that,
can you?
>specialk
rosee
--
"Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B17BF2B...@pacbell.net...
> I was going to write a tongue in cheek post about whose behavior and
> proclivities might bring them closer to Satan, then remembered I don't
> *believe in Satan, so never mind.
>
> I would wonder about whether or not everyone who cares about me realizes
> *they were just flamed six ways to Sunday and called fawning toadies.
Yeah, but I'm partial to the term "mindless minions" personally
;-P
rosee
specialk
and get the meanings of my posts convoluted and twisted around james.
specialk
"James" <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message
news:jnmfhtop80p0qaldd...@4ax.com...
Kaitlyn
>I was going to write a tongue in cheek post about whose behavior and
>proclivities might bring them closer to Satan, then remembered I don't
>*believe in Satan, so never mind.
>
>I would wonder about whether or not everyone who cares about me realizes
>*they were just flamed six ways to Sunday and called fawning toadies.
Yep, it didn't pass by me without notice.
Kaitlyn
alexia
this is a faustain tale
as was mentioned, no one here is god, the devil, or particularly sucked in.
anyway
thought i'll put that on hte pile of incendiaries
----------
In article <200106011111...@asarian-host.net>, Mark
Dragon
Dragon, who suspects she is also being lumped in with "the enablers"
Bikerbabe <bike...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:KUOR6.342678$166.7...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
Dragon
> > Your leader speaks.
>
> she is not my leader, nor mark nor liz ( as in your case)
> nor deb, although I do feel a strong affection and respect towards her.
> It's called free will, and in conjunction with my brain and heart I try to
> put it to good use.
> I am so tired of people saying that everyone here thinks collectively.
*sigh*
Special, could you please take a look at what you wrote here and tell me why
you think it's free will when you do it, but James is playing "follow the
leader" when he does it?
Dragon
specialk
that one person is always right or wrong.
specialk
"Dragon" <mds...@nospam.pionet.net> wrote in message
news:thgpabi...@corp.supernews.com...
Bikerbabe
I am not really sure exactly *who Mark is talking about (and yeh, I wish I
could read minds sometimes too and then there are times when I wish people
would read mine! If ya know what I mean!) but he made the post without
naming names and I happen to know for a fact that there are a few people who
do lump me into this "category". Obviously, these are people that don't know
me very well and that I don't converse with on a regular basis but it still
burns my ass when this kind of crap gets brought out again and again. We've
been down this road a hundred friggin' times, enuff already, ya know? I am
pretty sure that it is abundantly clear who does and doesn't like Liz in
this ng, so why is there a need to keep bringing it up? Did some people all
of a sudden forget?
And yes, you are correct, I do have friends on both sides of the fence and
for that I am grateful because it shows to me that those people care about
me for me and not for who I am friends with...and that IS what is important
to me.
There are some people here who are viewed as the "good" people that I have
seen do some nasty, fucked up shit and I think that it is always good to
take a reality check of ones own backyard first before claiming sainthood.
Thank you for writing this post, I really do appreciate what you have to say
and I am happy to hear that you are not among the ones who condemn me for
what they *think they know rather then *what they do know about me.
Have I even said Hi to you yet or welcomed you back? I hope so and if I
haven't, then I am now. I have missed you alot and I am so happy to hear
that you are doing so well. You deserve some happiness in your life.
take care,
bikerbabe
"specialk" <spec...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:s9PR6.188$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
Liz
themselves and if Mark rags them enough, or pushes enough buttons, they'll
gang up on me just to prove they *will and he's wrong.
Or I could be wrong and it could be exactly what it seems to be, the
paranoid rantigs of a deeply disturbed man who really hates it that I see
through his shit the way I do, that I ignore him utterly and is looking for
my attention.
Either way, it engenders only my pity.
"Kaitlyn" <sava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0crfhtk4p7sifjf7k...@4ax.com...
Liz
I'm sorry you feel like shit. Anything I can do to help?
"Bikerbabe" <bike...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:ie0S6.345232$166.7...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
Bikerbabe
I didn't consider it a flame as much as I did insulting and rude. Then we
have the queen of flame herself make a post right below that....and oh yes,
she's not reading the ng....RIGHT and I've won the lottery six times!
sheesh...
bikerbabe
"Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B17BF2B...@pacbell.net...
Bikerbabe
diddlyshitsquat....okay, well except for maybe my kids BUT that's it.
bbnews:3B17BFA4...@pacbell.net...
Bikerbabe
I know the feeling...
hugs back at cha babe and hang in there...it be ok.
Bikerbabe
"Dragon" <mds...@nospam.pionet.net> wrote in message
news:thgp7m4...@corp.supernews.com...
Laurels
I've got to say, I'm having a hard time with this post. I can think of some
colorful adjectives to apply, but I'm trying very hard not to do that, since
I'm not fond of being on the receiving end of that sort of stuff. The
kindest take I can make on this is that you don't realize how sanctimonious
it seems on this side of the screen.
By equating Liz with Satan (or Satanic forces, or Satanic-like influence, or
whatever tidier term you prefer), you become part of exactly the things
you're condemning. You're setting up a situation in which Forces of Good
battle Forces of Evil for the hearts of the community (AAR). Which is,
frankly, claptrap. Liz is a survivor, same as you. She's human, same as
you. And me. I don't agree with every word she utters, but I don't think
she is intending to work evil anywhere, nor do I think that everyone who
thinks Liz is something other than evil is somehow an enabler.
You identify Liz as evil (or a force for evil, or whatever - insert
politically correct term of choice) so *therefore* it's OK to call her
"gluttonous", to say that she panders to people's vices, to say that not
only is she an abuser, but that she's using some sort of hold on people to
manipulate them to join her in her abuse. I don't know about you, but I
don't see people here as so mindless or so easily manipulated that they do
much of anything based on the vanity you describe. What *I* see right now
(and I'm not part of the 'in crowd' any more - I only read posts) is a lot
of very strange people coming here to jump all over Liz, and Liz reacting in
a very human way - sometimes unkindly, sometimes not. YMMV.
The references to Satan are disingenuous, in my opinion. It's not OK when
Liz says that people she dislikes should die (as she has done in the past);
it's not OK when you liken another survivor to evil incarnate. You have
more reason than most to dislike Liz; I acknowledge that. But whatever her
faults, Liz doesn't cloak her prejudices as piety. She says what she means
at the moment, which has it's refreshing aspects. Liz is wrong a lot (IMO),
but she is wrong in a very up-front, in-your-face way.
I find this post to be, frankly, manipulative. Did you neglect to hop on
the bandwagon condeming Liz? You're therefore an enabler, a part of what
*she* has said and done ("All you have to do, is occasionally look the other
way"). I don't think the world works that way, Mark. I know for a fact
that I don't work that way. And I have a right to my opinion about that,
just as you do. I have a right to express my opinion in any way that I see
fit, just as you do (and just as other people here do). And if I disagree
with someone, I don't necessrily think they are plotting world domination.
Again, YMMV.
Catherine
http://www.hinesight.net/journal
James
folks without directly naming them is not only dirty
fighting, it is cowardly. It is only one of Mark's
techniques... one he obviously still uses. I am baffled by
your pursuit of Liz in all of this, but your silence on
Mark's behavior.
James.
(All similarities to real persons are completely
intentional. Names have been changed to indict the guilty
and hypocritical.)
On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:10:49 +0200, Mark
<ad...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<200106011111...@asarian-host.net> the following:
Liz
blood flaowing like a good fight, and if it offers an opportunity to
showcase her SOMAP skills, more's the better.
Shhhh. If we're very quiet, maybe she'll go back to not reading....
James
wrote in message <3b18b908....@192.168.0.222> the
following:
>On Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:10:49 +0200, Mark <ad...@asarian-host.net>
>wrote:
>What I find disturbing is that you, or anyone, could actually believe
>this to be the truth. That, to me, is the *truly* scary thing. The
>sort of skewed and quite narrow thinking which labels a group of
>people or any one person as "all good" or "all bad", "all weak" or
>"all strong" is one of the things that leads to abuse, IMO. This
>belief that, well, so-and-so is evil and therefore it's "okay" to be
>abusive to that "evil" person. Or folks can't think for themselves and
>"need" someone to tell them what to think... Give me a break!
>
Bloody well SPOT ON, Skye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>In other words, just because people do not share your opinion of Liz
>does not mean they are in any way vain or weak or any such *nonsense*.
>They simply just have a *different* *opinion* than you do. Just as
>there are folks with differing opinions about yourself. Can you make
>everyone see things the way you do? Nope. Can I make everyone see
>things the way I do? Nope (and I wouldn't want to, that would get
>bloody boring, IMO).
>
>As for folks "looking the other way" there could be several folks who
>are doing just that in regards to this post you've made for "fear" of
>what you could do to their asarian account (and I wouldn't blame them
>*if* that's the case). But you see, all these same things you wrote
>*could* be said of yourself. And jut because it could be construed
>that way, doesn't make it true.
>
>Trying to "convert" people into seeing things your way by painting
>such a broad stroke of judgement is not any better or any more "moral"
>than the other "warning" type flame posts that people make, IMO.
>
>To me, this post you've written says far more frightening things about
>you than it does about anyone else.
>
>Just my 2 cents worth...
>
You undervalue the truth by far, Skye. This understanding
of the truth you have expressed is priceless. If you don't
believe that... just think how poor those who have not yet
acquired it are.
>-- Skye
>
>
>"Living well is the best revenge." -- unknown
gardenia
"Laurels" <hin...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9f8n7h$bm$1...@zeus.orl.lmco.com...
: Hi, Mark,
:
: I've got to say, I'm having a hard time with this post. I can think of
some
: colorful adjectives to apply, but I'm trying very hard not to do that,
since
: I'm not fond of being on the receiving end of that sort of stuff.
and you did a very good job.. imo
: The
: kindest take I can make on this is that you don't realize how
sanctimonious
: it seems on this side of the screen.
:
: By equating Liz with Satan (or Satanic forces, or Satanic-like influence,
or
: whatever tidier term you prefer), you become part of exactly the things
: you're condemning.
nodding in full agreement..
: You're setting up a situation in which Forces of Good
: battle Forces of Evil for the hearts of the community (AAR).
That is a good description of the battles that have engulfed this newsgroup
for the past 2 years or so..
: Which is,
: frankly, claptrap. Liz is a survivor, same as you. She's human, same as
: you. And me. I don't agree with every word she utters, but I don't think
: she is intending to work evil anywhere, nor do I think that everyone who
: thinks Liz is something other than evil is somehow an enabler.
nodding in full agreement
:
: You identify Liz as evil (or a force for evil, or whatever - insert
: politically correct term of choice) so *therefore* it's OK to call her
: "gluttonous", to say that she panders to people's vices, to say that not
: only is she an abuser, but that she's using some sort of hold on people to
: manipulate them to join her in her abuse. I don't know about you, but I
: don't see people here as so mindless or so easily manipulated that they do
: much of anything based on the vanity you describe. What *I* see right now
: (and I'm not part of the 'in crowd' any more - I only read posts) is a lot
: of very strange people coming here to jump all over Liz, and Liz reacting
in
: a very human way - sometimes unkindly, sometimes not. YMMV.
The very strange people have been coming her to play their Wipe the Evil Liz
Off the Face of the Earth well, since August 1999. They're a bunch of
cowards, imo.. rebel rousers..
: The references to Satan are disingenuous, in my opinion. It's not OK when
: Liz says that people she dislikes should die (as she has done in the
past);
agree
: it's not OK when you liken another survivor to evil incarnate. You have
: more reason than most to dislike Liz; I acknowledge that.
there are plenty of people here who have reason to dislike Liz, me
included.. personally I dont hate her or anyone here. I dont wish harm on
anyone here. I dont think anyone here *deserves* to be *hurt*..
as in just about any group of people, there are people here I love dearly..
there are people I'm not friends with yet I have the upmost respect for
their opinions.. there are those who i'm at odds with on an issue, yet will
reach out to them in a time of need.. there are also people here that, for
whatever reason, i just dont click with and probably never will.. then there
are those I just dont like to much..
: But whatever her
: faults, Liz doesn't cloak her prejudices as piety. She says what she
means
: at the moment, which has it's refreshing aspects. Liz is wrong a lot
(IMO),
: but she is wrong in a very up-front, in-your-face way.
oh that she is.. <g>
: I find this post to be, frankly, manipulative. Did you neglect to hop on
: the bandwagon condeming Liz? You're therefore an enabler, a part of what
: *she* has said and done ("All you have to do, is occasionally look the
other
: way").
Hey.. I'm often on that 'enabler' list.. I've been told I've gotten too
"chumy" with Liz lately so I'm blind to her evil ways..
Tell you the truth.. I'm such a none believer, I started looking.. and when
I look at stuff like the emails, the socks on IRC pretending to be Liz, and
so on and so on and so on.. I can't find anything to support the idea that
it is Liz..
I have, however, found things that point to someone else.. not that I've
made a secret about that.. that's why I'm an enabler..
: I don't think the world works that way, Mark. I know for a fact
: that I don't work that way. And I have a right to my opinion about that,
: just as you do. I have a right to express my opinion in any way that I
see
: fit, just as you do (and just as other people here do). And if I disagree
: with someone, I don't necessrily think they are plotting world domination.
: Again, YMMV.
Thanks for your thoughts Catherine..
:
: Catherine
: http://www.hinesight.net/journal
:
gardenia
:
: Dragon, who suspects she is also being lumped in with "the enablers"
gardenia doesn't suspect.. she knows as her name shows up on the List of Liz
enablers
that being said.. There's something I want to toss into this mix...
Liz had dinner the other night with someone from this forum.. Why does this
person and Liz wish to keep their meeting secret? Because both of them have
said.. at different times, never together.. that they *feared* the reaction
of the group..
gardenia
lumped into the "liz enabler" list, you might just find that we do speak for
ourselves..
"specialk" <spec...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:1h%R6.317$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
: because i can see contradictions on both sides... I dont blindly believe
: >
: >
: >
:
gardenia
"Liz" <white...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:ch0S6.598$Pd.2...@news.pacbell.net...
: I *think the idea is that several people are too stupid to think for
: themselves and if Mark rags them enough, or pushes enough buttons, they'll
: gang up on me just to prove they *will and he's wrong.
Just like you dont have the power to make me post something, neither does
Mark..
I will, however, say something to you if I feel so inclined, just as I will
to anyone else here in this group..
gardenia
<sk...@nakedhoof.comRemove> wrote in message
news:3b18b908....@192.168.0.222...
:
: What I find disturbing is that you, or anyone, could actually believe
: this to be the truth. That, to me, is the *truly* scary thing. The
: sort of skewed and quite narrow thinking which labels a group of
: people or any one person as "all good" or "all bad", "all weak" or
: "all strong" is one of the things that leads to abuse, IMO. This
: belief that, well, so-and-so is evil and therefore it's "okay" to be
: abusive to that "evil" person. Or folks can't think for themselves and
: "need" someone to tell them what to think... Give me a break!
:
: In other words, just because people do not share your opinion of Liz
: does not mean they are in any way vain or weak or any such *nonsense*.
: They simply just have a *different* *opinion* than you do. Just as
: there are folks with differing opinions about yourself. Can you make
: everyone see things the way you do? Nope. Can I make everyone see
: things the way I do? Nope (and I wouldn't want to, that would get
: bloody boring, IMO).
:
: As for folks "looking the other way" there could be several folks who
: are doing just that in regards to this post you've made for "fear" of
: what you could do to their asarian account (and I wouldn't blame them
: *if* that's the case). But you see, all these same things you wrote
: *could* be said of yourself. And jut because it could be construed
: that way, doesn't make it true.
:
: Trying to "convert" people into seeing things your way by painting
: such a broad stroke of judgement is not any better or any more "moral"
: than the other "warning" type flame posts that people make, IMO.
:
: To me, this post you've written says far more frightening things about
: you than it does about anyone else.
:
: Just my 2 cents worth...
:
: -- Skye
specialk
specialk
"gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:9faj6e$7vnq$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
gardenia
I am *included* in most the list that are published..
James is not my *pet dog* any more than he's Liz's or anyone's for that
matter.
"specialk" <spec...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:mS9S6.415$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
: I wasnt talking about you or Dragon
: > : >
: > :
: >
: >
:
specialk
you are entitled to your opinion, and so am I
specialk
"gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:_%9S6.108$Nq1.63...@newssvr10-int.news.prodigy.com...
rosee
--
"azure" <az...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106021509...@asarian-host.net...
> "Bikerbabe" <bike...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> > they are not making me but they are pissing me off! NO ONE can make me
do
> > diddlyshitsquat....okay, well except for maybe my kids BUT that's it.
>
> heh. my kid can make me jump thru hoops. and if I ever have grandkids, I
> bet they'll be able to make me jump thru *flamin* hoops.
oh fershur!
While riding a unicycle and eating a popsicle!
rosee
way bigger sucker
:-)
>
> azure,
> sucker
Bobbi Perrin
FWIW I battle with the image of evil incarnate within myself all the time.
I thought all human beings at some time or other in their lives struggle with
the internal battle of good versus evil. But by the grace of God there go I.
Thank you for your kind hearted clarity Catherine.
Wishing all love and healing,
Seeker
James
wrote in message <3b1d58be...@192.168.0.222> the
following:
>On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:18:50 +0800, James
><Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:07:16 GMT, sk...@nakedhoof.comRemove
>>wrote in message <3b18b908....@192.168.0.222> the
>>following:
>>
>>>What I find disturbing is that you, or anyone, could actually believe
>>>this to be the truth. That, to me, is the *truly* scary thing. The
>>>sort of skewed and quite narrow thinking which labels a group of
>>>people or any one person as "all good" or "all bad", "all weak" or
>>>"all strong" is one of the things that leads to abuse, IMO. This
>>>belief that, well, so-and-so is evil and therefore it's "okay" to be
>>>abusive to that "evil" person. Or folks can't think for themselves and
>>>"need" someone to tell them what to think... Give me a break!
>>>
>>Bloody well SPOT ON, Skye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Thanks James, but sadly I think that the point I was trying to make
>will be lost on those who (IMO) need to hear it most.
>
Well... that's always the way of it, isn't it?
I mean... *if* they already realized it... *would* you be
trying to tell them? I - don't - theenk - so. :o)
>[snipt the rest]
Ouch!!
>
>>>Just my 2 cents worth...
>>>
>>You undervalue the truth by far, Skye. This understanding
>>of the truth you have expressed is priceless. If you don't
>>believe that... just think how poor those who have not yet
>>acquired it are.
>
>I value the truth most highly, even when it is painful to hear. But
>the 2 cents comment was more about me jumping into fray. There have
>been many times in recent weeks when I've been ready to turn on my own
>flame thrower and aim towards some of the trolls who are visiting
>herein, but others have done a far better job of it than I could have
>hoped to do.
So THAT'S why it feels so incredibly lonely so often!! Grrr
>I also find it sort of futile to flame such folks
>because they just don't get it and most likely never will.
>
Actually... some do. Yeah... I know it's as rare as
anything... but believe it or not, it *does* happen. I
know it does, cause I've **seen** it happen... more than
once. :o)
>OTOH, Mark has seemed to me to be of a certain level of intelligence
Well... in my considered opinion :o) this is a popular
misconception to conclude that the level of intelligence has
*anything* to do with *not* seeing something obvious. Yes,
I know it *seems* that's the problem... but it's *not* the
inability to *process* the information... it's the
inability to **SEE** the information. Even the most
intelligent and quick minded folks can be totally and
utterly blinded to the obvious by emotion or *choice*. You
might not understand this... but at one point the
intelligence... the "knowing"... well... it's what gets
in the way... not what helps. :o)
>and I would hope that he read what I wrote and considered it. I don't
>know him, (I don't know anyone here on a personal level) so I don't
>know where he is at in his own head, but I like to give the benefit of
>the doubt insofar as he *might* listen and therefore it could be worth
>the time I took to write and post.
>
I understand. Of course... you can never ever know till
you try... with *anyone*.
>I don't know Liz either. I've read many things she's written that I
>felt were wrong. I've read many things that other folks have written
>that I felt were equally as wrong. I also have read many things from
>people on all sides that I felt were spot-on correct. And, as I say, I
>don't really know anyone here on a personal level, so I don't pass
>judgement.
Careful now. You're bordering dangerously close to saying
Liz is human, and that's all that's required to land you in
some very deep shit from the powers that (think they) be.
>I don't post to those things if I feel that someone's
>already said it better,
Well that just plain old *sucks*! Wanna know why?
>and also because I just don't know *all* the issues that may
>be involved.
Understandable and VERY reasonable.
(also, I just don't post a whole heck of a lot.)
>I also see Liz making a concerted effort and not just
>talking about change, but actually changing & growing.
>
Whoooo Lawdy!!!! You don't mind jumping out there and
telling it like it is even under threat of shunning, do
you!!! :o)
I'm tempted here to tow the party line and say "Look more
closely, dear. Look at only what I tell you. Pay no
attention to anything else. There! See! That little bit
there. Yes, that. You see what I'm telling you... she
*IS* evil personified. What do you say? Oh that other
stuff... well... that's just an act... she's just trying
to suck you in. Don't believe it. Trust me. There, there
now dear. I know it's difficult to see at times cause it
can look so different than it is... but just listen to me.
I'll help you and guide you to see the truth... my truth.
We'll talk about paying your dues later on... right now you
just need to see and know the truth. It'll all be alright
once you do."
>If some folks cannot forgive what they feel are
>transgressions against themselves, that is their choice and
>quite understandable in many cases.
>But to take the steps of a) trying to convince everyone to
>feel the same way; and b) saying there is something "wrong"
>with those who feel differently -- that's uncalled for, no
>matter who does it or to whom they do it.
>
Well... you most likely feel this way for a multitude of
reasons... the least of which being that you can think for
yourself and abhor those who feel they should be able to
think for you. Unfortunately it's rather clear there are a
few folks around who simply don't recognize this as a valid
boundary and consequently cause themselves *and* others much
angst in their belief they are justified in stepping over
this boundary. I personally don't see this as any different
than any other boundary violation.
And by the way... it's not due to intelligence nor the lack
of it. It's more that a decision has been made to take it
to a personal level, and that decision, once made, precludes
seeing things as they are. It doesn't matter whether the
decision is "for" or "against" either. When you get to that
position, everything is seen in the light of which it is
examined, and all else remains unlit... unable to be seen.
Take care, Catherine.
And can you do me a favor? Remember you voice has great
value in and of it's self, even when it may echo another's.
>-- Skye
>
Liz
gardenia wrote:
>
> "Liz" <white...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
> news:ch0S6.598$Pd.2...@news.pacbell.net...
> : I *think the idea is that several people are too stupid to think for
> : themselves and if Mark rags them enough, or pushes enough buttons, they'll
> : gang up on me just to prove they *will and he's wrong.
>
> Just like you dont have the power to make me post something, neither does
> Mark..
The difference between us, doll, is I don't *TRY to get you to post
something, and I know damn *well I couldn't if I wanted to. That's part
of my point. He doesn't know it. He is assuming every single person
who likes or talks to me is a drooling idiot who can't think for
themselves and is ultimately so selfish that they would put aside any
other concerns they may or may not have for a drop of affection from me.
Do I shower you with affection, Pat? I mean, give me a break *g*
Luna
>
>
>gardenia wrote:
>>
>> "Liz" <white...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
>> news:ch0S6.598$Pd.2...@news.pacbell.net...
>> : I *think the idea is that several people are too stupid to think for
>> : themselves and if Mark rags them enough, or pushes enough buttons, they'll
>> : gang up on me just to prove they *will and he's wrong.
>>
>> Just like you dont have the power to make me post something, neither does
>> Mark..
>
>The difference between us, doll, is I don't *TRY to get you to post
>something, and I know damn *well I couldn't if I wanted to. That's part
>of my point. He doesn't know it. He is assuming every single person
>who likes or talks to me is a drooling idiot who can't think for
>themselves and is ultimately so selfish that they would put aside any
>other concerns they may or may not have for a drop of affection from me.
>
>Do I shower you with affection, Pat? I mean, give me a break *g*
lol.
well you certainly shower me with affection.
will you please STOP sending me all those soppy greeting card things?
I mean for chrissakes, Liz....
jean
Liz
Dragon
a follower. In fact, it seems to me that it does just the opposite, though
that could just be because I'm confused about what you meant by
contradictions.
I would have to agree that no one person is always right or wrong. Wish I
could convince my dad of that....
Dragon
specialk <spec...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:1h%R6.317$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
Dragon
>
> "Dragon" <mds...@nospam.pionet.net> wrote in message
> news:thgp7m4...@corp.supernews.com...
> : {{{{{{{{{{{{Bikerbabe}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
> :
> : Dragon, who suspects she is also being lumped in with "the enablers"
> :
>
> gardenia doesn't suspect.. she knows as her name shows up on the List of
Liz
> enablers
Well, I don't think mine has lately, but it certainly has enough in the
past.
> that being said.. There's something I want to toss into this mix...
>
> Liz had dinner the other night with someone from this forum.. Why does
this
> person and Liz wish to keep their meeting secret? Because both of them
have
> said.. at different times, never together.. that they *feared* the
reaction
> of the group..
Can't say as I blame them. I certainly wouldn't annouce it here if I were
going to meet Liz.
Dragon
Dragon
was being lumped into that group also. I'm pretty sure there are people who
still do lump me into that group - most of them I don't care about. But
there are a few I do care about that I'm not sure about.... :(
Dragon
specialk <spec...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:mS9S6.415$F42....@newscontent-01.sprint.ca...
James
wrote in message <3b1adf7c...@192.168.0.222> the
following:
>On Sun, 03 Jun 2001 07:47:19 +0800, James
><Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 21:30:40 GMT, sk...@nakedhoof.comRemove
>>wrote in message <3b1d58be...@192.168.0.222> the
>>following:
>>
>>>On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:18:50 +0800, James
>>><Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 02 Jun 2001 10:07:16 GMT, sk...@nakedhoof.comRemove
>>>>wrote in message <3b18b908....@192.168.0.222> the
>>>>following:
>>>>
>>>>>What I find disturbing is that you, or anyone, could actually believe
>>>>>this to be the truth. That, to me, is the *truly* scary thing. The
>>>>>sort of skewed and quite narrow thinking which labels a group of
>>>>>people or any one person as "all good" or "all bad", "all weak" or
>>>>>"all strong" is one of the things that leads to abuse, IMO. This
>>>>>belief that, well, so-and-so is evil and therefore it's "okay" to be
>>>>>abusive to that "evil" person. Or folks can't think for themselves and
>>>>>"need" someone to tell them what to think... Give me a break!
>>>>>
>>>>Bloody well SPOT ON, Skye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>Thanks James, but sadly I think that the point I was trying to make
>>>will be lost on those who (IMO) need to hear it most.
>>>
>>Well... that's always the way of it, isn't it?
>
>Yep.
>
Ok
>>I mean... *if* they already realized it... *would* you be
>>trying to tell them? I - don't - theenk - so. :o)
>
>True enough.
>
Ok
>>>[snipt the rest]
>>
>>Ouch!!
>
>Sorry, but I like to snip the stuff I'm not responding too... erm..
>it's an "old fashioned" netiquette thingy I guess. :-)
>
Yes, it is... but I haven't seen a 300 baud modem in
decades.
>>>I value the truth most highly, even when it is painful to hear. But
>>>the 2 cents comment was more about me jumping into fray. There have
>>>been many times in recent weeks when I've been ready to turn on my own
>>>flame thrower and aim towards some of the trolls who are visiting
>>>herein, but others have done a far better job of it than I could have
>>>hoped to do.
>>
>>So THAT'S why it feels so incredibly lonely so often!! Grrr
>
>Awww, c'mon now, James, you've had some excellent company flaming
>those folks of late. :-)
>
That's not the point.
>>>I also find it sort of futile to flame such folks
>>>because they just don't get it and most likely never will.
>>>
>>Actually... some do. Yeah... I know it's as rare as
>>anything... but believe it or not, it *does* happen. I
>>know it does, cause I've **seen** it happen... more than
>>once. :o)
>
>I'll have to take your word for that, as I've not witnessed it myself.
>
Ok
>
>>>OTOH, Mark has seemed to me to be of a certain level of intelligence
>>
>>Well... in my considered opinion :o) this is a popular
>>misconception to conclude that the level of intelligence has
>>*anything* to do with *not* seeing something obvious. Yes,
>>I know it *seems* that's the problem... but it's *not* the
>>inability to *process* the information... it's the
>>inability to **SEE** the information. Even the most
>>intelligent and quick minded folks can be totally and
>>utterly blinded to the obvious by emotion or *choice*. You
>>might not understand this... but at one point the
>>intelligence... the "knowing"... well... it's what gets
>>in the way... not what helps. :o)
>
>Yeah, I understand your point here and have seen it in action in daily
>life as well.
>
Ok
Agreement sure doesn't do much toward stimulating
discussion, does it? Maybe that's part of the reason it
doesn't happen as often as it's counterpart.
>>>and I would hope that he read what I wrote and considered it. I don't
>>>know him, (I don't know anyone here on a personal level) so I don't
>>>know where he is at in his own head, but I like to give the benefit of
>>>the doubt insofar as he *might* listen and therefore it could be worth
>>>the time I took to write and post.
>>>
>>I understand. Of course... you can never ever know till
>>you try... with *anyone*.
>>
>>>I don't know Liz either. I've read many things she's written that I
>>>felt were wrong. I've read many things that other folks have written
>>>that I felt were equally as wrong. I also have read many things from
>>>people on all sides that I felt were spot-on correct. And, as I say, I
>>>don't really know anyone here on a personal level, so I don't pass
>>>judgement.
>>
>>Careful now. You're bordering dangerously close to saying
>>Liz is human, and that's all that's required to land you in
>>some very deep shit from the powers that (think they) be.
>
>Well, that's okay, I ain't here to get in anyone's good graces. Some
>folks will like what I post and others won't and that's just the way
>it is. A long time ago, in another newsgroup far, far away... I went
>with the crowd (something I have never done in RL) but I did in this
>instance... until a point was reached where I could no longer tolerate
>or condone the actions of said crowd. I spoke out, with complete
>knowledge of what would ensue. I encountered what I call "secret
>support" in the way of emails from folks who were just too afraid to
>speak their minds publically for fear of retribution. I promised
>myself then that I would not make those same mistakes again, and I
>haven't, I won't. True to myself is all I can be anymore.
>
Independent minded folk who *speak* their mind are not well
thought of here though. They are seen as a threat...
someone to be attacked and discredited. Sucks, but it's
true... time after time... person after person.
>>>I don't post to those things if I feel that someone's
>>>already said it better,
>>
>>Well that just plain old *sucks*! Wanna know why?
>
>Okay, I'll bite... Why?
>
Ever been feeling ill or in the hospital and your room's
like Grand Central Station? Feels quite different if just
one person visits to let you know they care. Or none.
>>>and also because I just don't know *all* the issues that may
>>>be involved.
>>
>>Understandable and VERY reasonable.
>
>>>(also, I just don't post a whole heck of a lot.)
>>
>>>I also see Liz making a concerted effort and not just
>>>talking about change, but actually changing & growing.
>>>
>>Whoooo Lawdy!!!! You don't mind jumping out there and
>>telling it like it is even under threat of shunning, do
>>you!!! :o)
>
>I don't mind it at all. I calls 'em as I see 'em, and that's all it
>is. If I'm wrong, so be it. I have people in my life who love and care
>for me, whom I love and care for as well. People on a newsgroup, who
>don't know me, or take the time to get to know me, if they shun me, so
>what. Life goes on.
>
Very similar to my formula/rules.
>>I'm tempted here to tow the party line and say "Look more
>>closely, dear. Look at only what I tell you. Pay no
>>attention to anything else. There! See! That little bit
>>there. Yes, that. You see what I'm telling you... she
>>*IS* evil personified. What do you say? Oh that other
>>stuff... well... that's just an act... she's just trying
>>to suck you in. Don't believe it. Trust me. There, there
>>now dear. I know it's difficult to see at times cause it
>>can look so different than it is... but just listen to me.
>>I'll help you and guide you to see the truth... my truth.
>>We'll talk about paying your dues later on... right now you
>>just need to see and know the truth. It'll all be alright
>>once you do."
>
>Yeah, right... not!
>
But... but... but..
>>>If some folks cannot forgive what they feel are
>>>transgressions against themselves, that is their choice and
>>>quite understandable in many cases.
>>
>>>But to take the steps of a) trying to convince everyone to
>>>feel the same way; and b) saying there is something "wrong"
>>>with those who feel differently -- that's uncalled for, no
>>>matter who does it or to whom they do it.
>>>
>>Well... you most likely feel this way for a multitude of
>>reasons... the least of which being that you can think for
>>yourself and abhor those who feel they should be able to
>>think for you. Unfortunately it's rather clear there are a
>>few folks around who simply don't recognize this as a valid
>>boundary and consequently cause themselves *and* others much
>>angst in their belief they are justified in stepping over
>>this boundary. I personally don't see this as any different
>>than any other boundary violation.
>
>Of course, I agree.
>
Ok
>I learned to think for myself at an early age... I was forced into it,
>I suppose. Because the only safe place I had to live was inside my
>mind. They could not read my mind, they could not destroy what was in
>there, so it was the one place where I had the power. In my mind I was
>stronger than them, in my mind I could actually speak the words "this
>is unfair". So, no, no other can tell me what to think. I can learn
>from when I'm wrong, I can change my mind about something, or someone,
>but I have to see it for myself not take it on anyone elses word.
>
>>And by the way... it's not due to intelligence nor the lack
>>of it. It's more that a decision has been made to take it
>>to a personal level, and that decision, once made, precludes
>>seeing things as they are. It doesn't matter whether the
>>decision is "for" or "against" either. When you get to that
>>position, everything is seen in the light of which it is
>>examined, and all else remains unlit... unable to be seen.
>>
>>Take care, Catherine.
>
>While I agree with and like what Catherine wrote, I'm not her.
>Should I be flattered? Or crushed? Or both? ;-)
>
You should just laugh at me for having a brain fart.
My apologies. I don't know you well at all, but I don't
know you as Catherine. I don't know why I wrote Catherine
there either since I was well aware I was responding to you.
I can safely assume though, that it's a reflection of my
current attitude... and in case you haven't guessed...
that ain't too crash hot.
>>And can you do me a favor? Remember you voice has great
>>value in and of it's self, even when it may echo another's.
>
>I will try to...if indeed it is me to whom you thought you were
>writing... ;-)
>
It was indeed you, though applicable in a much wider sense
as well.
edrieanne
to allow another to grow and change - and mature.
What strikes me most about the exchanges on this forum is the transparency
of that unwillingness to accept that someone for whom disapproval is held
can acknowledge past mistakes and take responsibility for the mistakes and
move forward.
What seems to resonate is that IF another person can see those mistakes and
move on- then so can "I". By acknowledging that one can grow and resolve
past conflict - it places responsibility on "me" to do the same - and if "I"
am not ready to face the actions and behaviors in "my" past - the only safe
haven for "me" is to deny that the OTHER person has actually effected the
change within his/her life.
Acknowledging change in a person and growth - and forgiveness of others - is
the only way to allow ourselves to move forward and forgive ourselves.
Sorry if this is rambling, I'm fighting a raging sore throat and cough - but
wanted to try to put this down before I put me down.
We should celebrate in each person's progress, for so goes theirs, goes our
own.
"James" <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message
news:e7rihtsar58ist7po...@4ax.com...
Liz
at no point were my feelings for you ever so small that I was
*embarrassed by them, Dragon.
And for the record, I wasn't afraid of how *I* would be perceived, but
how HE would be. And I was wrong, and so was he. I'm not giving names,
because they aren't mine to give, but to hell with anyone who is ashamed
they know me.
Fuck every *one of you people.
gardenia
I understood from you and him both that neither wanted one or the other to
be the brunt of the negative comments from the anti-Liz crowd.
If it were not for that problem, I'm sure you would have posted about your
dinner.. just as azure did when she met Kc at the airport..
"Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B1A22C0...@pacbell.net...
: Fuck you, then. Because no matter how angry I have EVER been with you,
gardenia
public announcement she was going to meet you.. the nastiness from the
anti-liz crowd can and often is overwhelming..
"gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:k0qS6.749$Fx4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
:
: I understood from you and him both that neither wanted one or the other to
:
Liz
didn't want anyone else who lived on the route he *didn't visit to feel
left out.
So evidently, he didn't even have the courage to tell ME he was
embarrassed to be associated with me. And if I am so fearsome he
couldn't even be honest with me, I have to wonder what the fuck he
wanted to meet me *for, unless it was like hitting the Ripley's Believe
It Or Not museum as you bop on through Hollywood.
And color me the pluperfect asshole who bought into all of it, Pat. Do
me a favor, folks, next time just call my box office and ask for
showtimes. Since we're friends and family and all, I promise you all
discount tickets when you come by to ooh and ah over the three legged
SuperBitch. Just stay away from the glass...she bites. And above all,
don't let anyone know you WANT to see her.
Well, that about does it for me, folks. Hasta.
gardenia
: Well, you know, what he told ME about not saying anything was that he
: didn't want anyone else who lived on the route he *didn't visit to feel
: left out.
I'm sure that was also part of it as well.. One does not have the time on a
weekend trip to visit everyone they know along a particular route..
:
: So evidently, he didn't even have the courage to tell ME he was
: embarrassed to be associated with me. And if I am so fearsome he
: couldn't even be honest with me, I have to wonder what the fuck he
: wanted to meet me *for, unless it was like hitting the Ripley's Believe
: It Or Not museum as you bop on through Hollywood.
Liz.. I think you need to go to sleep and quit letting these wild ass'ed
ideas fly around your head..
: And color me the pluperfect asshole who bought into all of it, Pat. Do
: me a favor, folks, next time just call my box office and ask for
: showtimes. Since we're friends and family and all, I promise you all
: discount tickets when you come by to ooh and ah over the three legged
: SuperBitch. Just stay away from the glass...she bites. And above all,
: don't let anyone know you WANT to see her.
:
: Well, that about does it for me, folks. Hasta.
He said he enjoyed meeting you and was very glad he did. He was full of
positive feedback about the evening..
Oh, and yes folks.. I have it on *very good authority* that the weight loss
is real..
Shardik
Oh shit!!!!!
news:200106011329...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Thanks mark - for all the former posters who have no longer post here who
> watched in horror at what was posted to debster, a consistently positive
> voice here and who has supported and spoken up for many who were silent
and
> didn't speak for her. Thank you from all the former posters who no longer
> post here who watched in horror as the silence stretched on and on after
> those posts appeared save for one or two,who took abuse for posting.
>
> Of course there are no devils here only troubled folks - but the line from
> the movie - "vanity, my favorite vice" is true and fitting. That is how
its
> done - its not magic, its a proven formula. Originality is not a strong
> point here anymore. Much of what is here we've heard before - its what
> brought us here and sent us away.
>
> God speed debster - we are all with you in spirit, at least those of us
who
> aren't afraid to be. What was said to you was not right - it was
> compassionless and cruel.
>
> lets go back to being former posters Mr. Mark.
Ok, good!!! ('cept I hope Mark stays!)
Shar
James
<gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
<K2qS6.750$8B4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com> the
following:
>ps.. i'm going to go out on a limb and say that is why
>Dragon wouldnt make a public announcement she was going to
>meet you.. the nastiness from the anti-liz crowd can and
>often is overwhelming..
>
*Anything* can be, and usually *is*, *if* you allow it to
be.
It's a choice.
Which gets more respect? Self... or impressions.
gardenia
: On Sun, 03 Jun 2001 12:27:22 GMT, "gardenia"
: <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
: <K2qS6.750$8B4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com> the
: following:
:
: >ps.. i'm going to go out on a limb and say that is why
: >Dragon wouldnt make a public announcement she was going to
: >meet you.. the nastiness from the anti-liz crowd can and
: >often is overwhelming..
: >
: *Anything* can be, and usually *is*, *if* you allow it to
: be.
:
: It's a choice.
:
: Which gets more respect? Self... or impressions.
Yes, it is a choice... There are many things I don't do or say because I
don't care to listen to the crap that inevitably will follow.
James
<sim...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
<3B1A2E15...@pacbell.net> the following:
Excuse me, but what does
>pluperfect
mean?
Liz
about someone, I don't give a hot *shit who has a problem with it and
ignore anyone who dares to give me trouble for who I care about. That
NEVER plays into those choices for me. And NEVER would I hold it up as
the most accecptable and understandable thing in the world...'oh, of
COURSE I didn't want to admit I like such and so, because of all the
shit I would get'. I would NEVER be so small minded and weak. And I
would NEVER treat anyone I cared about like such disposable trash.
You cannot claim to love or respect anyone you are ashamed to admit you
know.
And while we are at it, I may be tired, and yes, I do have insomnia, but
do me the favor of sparing me the condescending crap about what I think
being the result of that and not what I actually think, k?
NOW I'll go get some sleep.
James
<gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
<pbqS6.751$SB4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com> the
following:
>Oh, and yes folks.. I have it on *very good authority* that
>the weight loss is real..
It's a fight not to say something I *might* regret about
"those folks".
gardenia
well, then there are differences between us.. and that's fine..
for example, there are times when I don't tell my mother something because I
know she's going to give me a ration of shit for it.. big fucking deal..
it's not a slam against my friend.. it doesnt mean i'm ashamed of the
relationship or have no respect for them..
all it means.. is ain't nobody's business what I do..
And that includes the choice to say something or keep my mouth shut for the
sake of peace & quiet..
"Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B1A37D6...@pacbell.net...
: Well the choice *I* make is, if I am someone's friend, or if I care
TideRider
"James" <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message news:8idkht0ht52ui3mhr...@4ax.com...
Dragon
I said I wouldn't invite the bullshit by announcing it, period. I'm still
not embarrassed by the fact that I gave her a chance, and I never will be.
What changed, changed, it can't be undone now.
I've gotta stop reading her stuff when you answer her. *sigh*
Dragon
gardenia <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:k0qS6.749$Fx4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Dragon
Dragon
gardenia <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:K2qS6.750$8B4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Dragon
Liz, why are you letting someone else's opinion affect your opinion of
someone? What difference does it make whether Pat and I think it was one
reason it "wasn't announced" if that person told you it was another? It
might have been a mixture of the two - and neither of us said anything about
it being "embarassing". We said nobody needs that kind of harrassment.
Dragon
gardenia <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:pbqS6.751$SB4.25...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
Dragon
unless the two meeting want to make it so.
Dragon
James <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message
news:gcbkht03ajrr1c4uf...@4ax.com...
gardenia
have a pretty good idea how I felt last year..
"Just Lis" <jus...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106032123...@asarian-host.net...
x-no-archive: yes
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((Mark))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
As you know, I've been unsubscribed for two months.... I went on vacation
and just never came back.... But friends have forwarded me several posts,
and from conversations I've seen, I have some idea of what has been going
on.... I'm back to post only in this thread for a bit, and then I'll be
gone again.... My e-mail is open to anyone who would like to talk....
> Yes, this is a post about Liz.
>
> I saw "The Devil's Advocate" the other day; starring Al Paccino as Satan
> himself. His counter-part, Keanu Reeves, gets slowly, but surely,
> suckered in by him. Towards the end, there is a beautiful scene, about
> free will, where Al Paccino tells a rather upset Keanu Reeves that he
> never made him do anything; that it was all his free will; that nobody
> ever followed him under duress; that he never corrupted people; but that,
> instead, people all followed him, freely and willingly. And so they
> did--in droves.
>
> And why? Vanity; man's greatest vice, as Al Paccino told Keanu. They were
> all eagerly in line to join the club; for Al, much like our Liz, really
> forced no one; he just catered to their ego, played on that greatest
> vice: vanity; and they all, without exception, kissed his feet while he
> was kissing their ass.
I read this post very carefully several times, Mark. And I tried to place
myself back 2 1/2 years ago, when Liz and I had been very close friends for
1 1/2 years before coming to this newsgroup. And I tried to figure out
exactly what it was that attracted me to Liz. She is very strong, bright,
funny, supportive, and extremely loyal as long as you don't dare question
her.
I don't think it was necessarily vanity that drew me to her, but her
strength. I've never been a very strong person at all, and I respected her
strength to stand up to others who were abusive in other forums. Was there
a catering to my ego? As I look at myself very carefully this afternoon, I
have to admit I think so. She repeatedly told me, "You are such a gentle
and quiet person, and I know you don't like fighting. Let me take care of
this; I'm used to the flaming, and it doesn't bother me." In the sense that
I do see myself as a gentle and quiet person, and I avoid fighting as much
as possible, I think I may have received her words as a stroke of my own
ego -- as well as relief that I wasn't going to have to be thrust into the
fight. I'm not sure I would call that vanity, though.... But I wouldn't be
surprised if some of those who support Liz on this newsgroup do so for the
same reasons I did years ago.... Only they know why....
> And so I see people squirm and stoop to get into Liz' good graces; the
> gluttonous hands reach out, all too eagerly, for Liz to drop in a few
> soothing words. And I must confess, I have never before seen anyone this
> good at it. It is awesome.
While I do understand the attraction to Liz as a person, and the
friendships that develop with her, I don't understand how they continue in
the light of her continued abusive behavior.... I had never seen the
intensity and pervasiveness of her behaviors before we came to this
forum.... And when I tried and failed to help her see what she was doing to
others as well as herself, I walked away.... I can't judge those who
continue to support her through her abuse of others, but I can't really
understand it, either....
> Most people are still afraid of her, though. But, not too deep down, they
> love the attention; they love how, finally, someone in their lives pays
> them some attention--even if they really know it is fake. But it is
> better than nothing, eh? And it is, of course, especially when you have
> been abused all your life, thrilling to finally have all that power on
> your side for a change; to have some of the "glitter" of the abuser rub
> off on you--if only by association; to not be with the downtrodden, for a
> change, but to be high on that horse, having the "strong" people on your
> side--as opposed to having them trample all over you.
I have to admit I felt stronger when I was associated with her on the other
boards. I didn't and don't think it was fake, but it did feel good to know
that if someone attacked me, there would be someone there to fight back if
I wasn't strong enough. But the problem came in this forum, when she
offered to take up the fight, and proceeded in my name to say and do things
I wouldn't dream of saying. And in the end it turned out that she wasn't
trying to help me at all, but was only using me to further her own agenda
to hurt people who later became my friends here.
> Like the classic tale, there is, of course, a price to be paid. Not that
> you really have to do anything; no, nothing so drastic. You just need to
> look the other way every once in a while. You just have to pretend not to
> see. And so, when Liz and gang are beating up on Carey, a once so
> respected person, who never hurt anyone in his life, people look away.
> Or, at best, they think: "Thank God, she is not after me!" That is the
> deal.
In all honesty, that fear was always there for me, even during my
friendship with her. And in even deeper honesty, I haven't often spoken up
publicly here when she has attacked my friends, because I didn't want to
paint a target on myself. I tried to send e-mails of support whenever I saw
it happen, but sometimes that just isn't enough. And for that, I apologize
to those I left standing alone, when you have always been so good to
support me.
> Liz empowers people; very subtlely, rather refinedly, too. She empowers
> them through their own vanity. When, at long last, a few of her many
> victims speak up, she gently pulls her followers aside, and says, in
> shiny new sheep's clothing that would make any wolf jealous, "Two wrongs
> don't make a right; you need to speak out against them, for what they are
> doing is not right." And because she is on your side, you feel strong;
> and you feel a warm glow of selective conscience welling up in you. For
> there you have it, your chance to be righteous, in public, to finally
> speak out against evil--and you do not have to fear anything either, for
> Liz is on your side this time! And so, ere long, she has you clubbing
> innocent people, alongside with her. And worse, has you feel good about
> it, too.
The cheering and high-fiving of abuse of others has bothered me for a long
time, and not only from the situation involving Liz. Because when an abuser
feels that very public support, it only strengthens the belief that the
abuse is right and justified, and leads to more abuse.
> And then you start to making glowing posts, about sock-puppets being bad,
> and all. And good posts, too; rather honorable sheets of prose. And, from
> now on, when a victim calls the abuser an asshole, for instance, you will
> not stand for that any longer, because "It is very offensive to call
> someone names; my mother did it too, and I feel really compelled to speak
> out to you now." And you feel good about yourself. Not only that, but you
> convince yourself, "See? Liz is not really all that bad. Actually, there
> would be peace if only the others would let up on her." And you really DO
> feel good about yourself; because that little voice, that used to be your
> conscience, is readily stilled, since you finally spoke out against
> "evil". She has you beat up her victims, and has you feel like a real
> humanitarian for doing so. And why? Because she catered to your ego,
> alleviated you of your slumbering feelings of guilt for having stayed
> silent for so long, whilst now you are finally combating "evil" again. My
> henpecked heroes! Vanity, man's greatest vice.
I'm still not sure if vanity is the right word, Mark.... I have seen what
you describe above, but I can't put my finger on what the right word is, at
least the way I interpret it....
> Then outsiders come in, bluntly posting how not Liz is the abuser, but
> how she is really the victim. And you feel more empowered than ever; for
> that little voice--that has grown smaller, but just won't go away--can
> again, because of that outside validation, be covered with a new layer of
> innocence.
Liz has been a victim -- but she is most certainly not a victim of the
regular members of this forum who have objected to her behavior. I've heard
what is going on with others coming here to try to fight Liz as a result of
actions in other places. If any of you find yourselves reading this post, I
ask that you please return to your own forum. In your attacks here, you
only engender sympathy for Liz and allow people to portray her as a victim,
when she is most assuredly an abuser of a wide variety of people in this
forum. We have enough problems of our own here.... Please take your own
problems with Liz back to your own forum....
> All you have to do, is occasionally look the other way. And it is true,
> she never made anyone do it. She never twisted your head; you just turned
> it yourself; because she showed you a prettier picture of yourself than
> what you were willing to face. Vanity, man's greatest vice.
>
> For Carey, and especially for our beloved Debster, I will no longer look
> the other way.
"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not
speak out. Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I
was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they came for the Jews, but I was
not a Jew so I did not speak out. And when they came for me, there was no
one left to speak out for me." -- Martin Niemoeller
Just Lis
Bikerbabe
I agree with azure on this...why are you allowing your dinner, that was a
wonderful experience for both of you, to be turned into some bad joke?
Just step back and really see what is being said...please.
I am not embarrassed to say that I am your friend or that I care about you
and if I was going to be in your area...you had better damn well come to
have dinner with me! Which by the way, remember when I told you that I was
going to take the kids to Disneyland? Well, I just confirmed our tickets for
June 20th. I don't know how far away you are but I would love it if you
would be able to come and meet me. I won't have a car so I won't be doing
any driving but maybe you could let me know if it is a doable thing for you.
You are in defense mode and you are taking everything that is said and
turning it into a huge war...
Can I ask you something...it is just an observation/question from my
viewpoint?
Do you believe that because you are so brutally honest with everyone and
yes, you can be very hurtful with how you say things, that when people say
things back to you..you also believe that they are trying to be brutally
honest and hurtful back to you, no matter *how they say it? I mean, do you
always expect to hear the bad from everyone, so you just naturally put up
your defenses? I am really doing a shitty job of explaining what I am trying
to say here but if you read what azure wrote again...and again, she really
hits the nail on the head.
Shit...I am exhausted too, so maybe this is not the best time for either of
us to talk about this <g> Ya know what I mean?
I need to go and have a nap and so do you :) We shall talk later ok...take
care of yourself.
bbnews:3B1A2E15...@pacbell.net...
Liz
opposite were archived. You absolutely threatened her...you said either
she shut the rest of us up or you would call her employer and lie about
what she was doing online, and it's all archived, you lying snake.
EVERY word of this post is a lie, Suzanne and how lucky for us all that
you chose to come back and grace us with yet another helping of this
stale bullshit.
windswept wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:36 PM
> Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
>
> > you know.. I could easily replace Suzanne's name with Liz's name and
> > you'd have a pretty good idea how I felt last year..
>
> I'm sure you could. And I'm sure you would have a lot of support in that
> because you have posted a lot of things that you have imagined here as
> fact.
>
> The "fact" is that I have made no move in your life whatsoever and you know
> that to be true because we have talked at length about it on the phone -
> what was real and what was not. You were the one pat who said I was
> threatening your real life - the fact is it never happened. What did happen
> was I asked how you had so much time on your hands to be posting from work
> and offered to send over some work from my department. You then took off
> with that and it became urban legend that I was going to call your boss and
> threaten your job. The fact was - it never happened nor did it ever come
> close to happening. Each and every time someone asked me about it - my
> statement was - no, I would never do that. Which was relayed to you by many
> folks. Another fact that we talked about at length on the phone - with my
> regrets that you ever felt that I would do something like that. We talked
> about what we both said in anger regarding taht time. Which you accepted
> graciously until it became useful for you again to picture yourself as my
> victim. Which you are not.
>
> You have never gotten telephone calls from me - I don't even have your
> telephone number - you have never gotten letters from me - I don't have
> your address. The only threat to you from me is totally and completely in
> your mind, taken out of and carried forth from a flamewar that happened
> more than a year ago and that we completely resoved in telephone calls from
> you to me. Resolved until you found it useful to hold me up as a banner as
> your abuser - it is a sham and a lie.
>
> The "fact" is pat - I have not posted here except once with regard to what
> Mark said - for two months - yet you continue to obsess regarding me both
> here and on IRC. I am very very much a part of your life in your head. The
> "fact" is, I want nothing whatsoever to do with you. And I would like it
> very much if you would stop bringing me up in every war you have and every
> negative thing you post or badger people with because I am not a part of
> your life and do not care to be. I very simply said - find it very
> frightening to be the subject of such an obsession.
>
> Get a life pat - your own - not an imagined one with me in it as your
> abuser. I don't belong there. I don't want to be there.
Liz
out of YOUR way to try to out someone who had made it clear they did not
want to be outed. It doesn't matter if Pat gave you the info you
*thought identified someone...it is still not your business or choice to
identify them by name yourself.
I had honestly hoped a more permanent departure explained your absence,
but I guess not.
windswept wrote:
>
> Oh lord - is there anyone out there who does not realize by now that you
> met Ghostwolf in real life?
>
> What is the big deal? If you hadn't wanted people to know - then pat should
> not have posted all she did - its not rocket science to figure it out.
>
> Lordy - what a stir over nothing.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
> > > : > gardenia <gard...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
> > > : > news:9faj3h$5psu$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> > > : > >
> > > : > > "Dragon" <mds...@nospam.pionet.net> wrote in message
> > > : > > news:thgp7m4...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > : > >
> > > : > > : {{{{{{{{{{{{Bikerbabe}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
> > > : > > :
> > > : > > : Dragon, who suspects she is also being lumped in with "the
> > > : > > : enablers"
> > > : > >
> > > : > > gardenia doesn't suspect.. she knows as her name shows up on the
> > > : > > List of Liz enablers
> > > : >
> > > : > Well, I don't think mine has lately, but it certainly has enough in
> > > : > the past.
> > > : >
> > > : > > that being said.. There's something I want to toss into this
> > > : > > mix...
> > > : > >
> > > : > > Liz had dinner the other night with someone from this forum.. Why
> > > : > > does this person and Liz wish to keep their meeting secret?
> > > : > > Because both of them have said.. at different times, never
> > > : > > together.. that they *feared* the reaction of the group..
> > > : >
> > > : > Can't say as I blame them. I certainly wouldn't annouce it here if
> > > : > I were going to meet Liz.
> > > : >
> > > : > Dragon
>
gardenia
you're lying to yourself suzanne..
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106040018...@asarian-host.net...
: x-no-archive: yes
:
:
:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: "gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net>
: Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 5:36 PM
: Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
:
: > you know.. I could easily replace Suzanne's name with Liz's name and
: > you'd have a pretty good idea how I felt last year..
:
: I'm sure you could. And I'm sure you would have a lot of support in that
:
: > "Just Lis" <jus...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
:
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gardenia
you're still minimizing ... you're still denying to face what you did.
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106040057...@asarian-host.net...
: x-no-archive: yes
:
: Well Liz - this would be my last post to this or any post here - flaming
: here is not my idea of fun anymore and I can feel the old racing of my
: heart and anger whelling up as I am sure is a familiar feeling to you -
but
: it doesn't invigorate me - just makes me feel bad about myself. Not
: something I want to feel.
:
: I don't honestly know what posts are out there from over a year ago. I
know
: a lot was said by both pat and I in anger. A lot has been said back and
: forth by other folks to other folks since and the story has grown and
: grown. I do know that I was very upset at the time and in the middle of a
: flame war. A lot of issues in my real world, my mother's death,
: fibromyalgia diagnosis, job layoff, a lot of loss and anger, something pat
: and I discussed at length when we resolved that war. I do know what has
: happened since. Since then I have have numerous conversations with pat and
: much resolution took place, until it was convenient for her to again raise
: old issues. I do know that much was apologized for by me and much was
: discussed between us.
:
: I also know - that at no time have I intruded into pat's real life or for
: that matter anyone's here. Something that you cannot say or that pat
cannot
: say. It doesn't matter what you say you know happened. What does matter is
: "I" know what I did and didn't do and what I didn't do was enter pat's
real
: life in any way shape or form.
:
: These kinds of flamewars are what I became addicted to - completely as if
: it were a drug. It is also what I left and will again after this post and
: will feel great about being able to do that. Posting what I have to say
and
: leaving the war to you. Discussion I do - wars I don't anymore. My email
is
: open to anyone who has a geniune question they feel a need for an answer
: to.
:
: How you conduct yourself here and how pat conducts herself here is why so
: very many people have left this forum. It is but a shell of what it used
to
: be in terms of numbers of people. We all still communicate thank goodness
: but in a different manner having made friendships that will outlast even
: the ugliness that seems unable to leave this place in the form of flaming
: and fighting. It is why I left - when I participate in it I become part of
: that ugliness - like now. But too much has been said about my making pat's
: life miserable - when I have have no contact with her in two months and
: before that - only when she telephoned me. I have not been to her home and
: she has not been to mine. She presents it like I am constantly threatening
: her in real life - and that is simply not happening and has not happened.
: It will never happen. I'm getting weary of reading about it, and hearing
: about it.
:
: I am sure you can find things to war about that are more current than
flame
: wars a year old that have been long since resolved and most of the parties
: having moved on.
:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: "Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net>
: Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:28 PM
: Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
:
: > Wrong, sorry and James and I made sure your posts saying the exazct
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James
<jus...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<200106032124...@asarian-host.net> the following:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Hello, James.
>
>> Bye the bye, Carey, making powerful accusations about other folks without
>> directly naming them is not only dirty fighting, it is cowardly.
>
>Speaking of cowardly.... You're "posting" to a man who has quite clearly
>said that he has had to leave the board for a while to tend to a sick
>friend??? Or perhaps you're criticizing Mark in a pseudo-post to Carey???
>You might consider being more careful who you fling that word at, James....
>
>> It is only one of Mark'stechniques... one he obviously still uses.
>
>Speaking of not naming names in posts.... Perhaps you'd like to enlighten
>us as to why YOU aren't naming names??? In this very thread, you have
>referred to those who object to Liz's behavior in the following ways:
>
>"It's a fight not to say something I *might* regret about "those folks"."
>Sunday, June 03, 2001 8:20 AM
>
>"If you don't believe that... just think how poor those who have not yet
>acquired it are." Saturday, June 02, 2001 5:18 AM
>
>"I mean... *if* they already realized it... *would* you be trying to tell
>them? I - don't - theenk - so. :o)" Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:47 PM
>
>"Even the most intelligent and quick minded folks can be totally and
>utterly blinded to the obvious by emotion or *choice*." Saturday, June 02,
>2001 6:47 PM
>
>"Careful now. You're bordering dangerously close to saying Liz is human,
>and that's all that's required to land you in some very deep shit from the
>powers that (think they) be." Saturday, June 02, 2001 6:47 PM
>
>"Whoooo Lawdy!!!! You don't mind jumping out there and telling it like it
>is even under threat of shunning, do you!!! :o)" Saturday, June 02, 2001
>6:47 PM
>
>"Well... you most likely feel this way for a multitude of reasons... the
>least of which being that you can think for yourself and abhor those who
>feel they should be able to think for you. Unfortunately it's rather clear
>there are a few folks around who simply don't recognize this as a valid
>boundary and consequently cause themselves *and* others much angst in their
>belief they are justified in stepping over this boundary." Saturday, June
>02, 2001 6:47 PM
>
>"And by the way... it's not due to intelligence nor the lack of it. It's
>more that a decision has been made to take it to a personal level, and that
>decision, once made, precludes seeing things as they are." Saturday, June
>02, 2001 6:47 PM
>
>"Independent minded folk who *speak* their mind are not well thought of
>here though. They are seen as a threat... someone to be attacked and
>discredited. Sucks, but it's true... time after time... person after
>person." Saturday, June 02, 2001 3:30 AM
>
>Just where IS your list of exactly who you're talking about, James??? If
>you're going to demand scorecards of others, I'd like to see yours. Or is
>it possible that when you wrote those posts, you knew exactly who you had
>in mind, and possibly had questions about others, and decided to speak in
>more general terms because you wanted the focus of your message to be on
>the message itself???
>
>I've seen a lot of posts to this board which contained lists, and in most
>cases the results weren't at all what was intended.... In the posts
>praising people, invariably names have been left out, and those people have
>been hurt, with the intended message of the post being lost.... In the
>posts chastising people, invariably arguments have broken out as to whether
>a person "deserved" to be named on the list, with the intended message of
>the post being lost.... I think it's more wise to focus on the message
>itself, and let people decide for themselves whether it applies to them....
>
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's always
nice to have someone make your point *for* you...
admittedly odd though when they *think* they are making a
point *against* you... but that just goes to show how bass
ackwards your thinking is. Now if you only had the
slightest clue as to what the point actually is.
I'll let the rest of the hog wash slide cause I know you've
got things so bass ackwards in your mind.
>> I am baffled by your pursuit of Liz in all of this, but your silence on
>> Mark's behavior.
>
>And I am baffled by your pursuit of Mark and Carey in all of this, but your
>silence on Liz's behavior. We watched you go after Mary for a solid year
>for doing the VERY same thing you are doing right now. Perhaps you'll be
>more inclined to listen to your own words than mine, if you'll apply them
>to yourself:
>
>"Even the most intelligent and quick minded folks can be totally and
>utterly blinded to the obvious by emotion or *choice*." Saturday, June 02,
>2001 6:47 PM
>
>> (All similarities to real persons are completely intentional. Names have
>> been changed to indict the guilty and hypocritical.)
>
>Ah, there's that good old judgmentalism about the intentions and motives of
>others again, James. Of course, in the case of Mark and Carey, it is *so
>very justified*. After all, you're only speaking out against the people who
>OBJECT to bad behavior, not those PERPETRATING that bad behavior.... Seems
>to me we've had someone in this forum who speaks quite extensively to those
>issues. Perhaps you and he should have a heart-to-heart talk....
>
>Just Lis
Dragon
I know *I* for one had no clue who was being talked about.
Hooray for you for making sure everybody knew. Aren't you proud of
yourself?
Dragon
windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106040026...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Oh lord - is there anyone out there who does not realize by now that you
> met Ghostwolf in real life?
>
> What is the big deal? If you hadn't wanted people to know - then pat
should
> not have posted all she did - its not rocket science to figure it out.
>
> Lordy - what a stir over nothing.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
> Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
>
> > > : > gardenia <gard...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
> > > : > news:9faj3h$5psu$1...@newssvr06-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> > > : > >
> > > : > > "Dragon" <mds...@nospam.pionet.net> wrote in message
> > > : > > news:thgp7m4...@corp.supernews.com...
> > > : > >
> > > : > > : {{{{{{{{{{{{Bikerbabe}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
> > > : > > :
> > > : > > : Dragon, who suspects she is also being lumped in with "the
> > > : > > : enablers"
> > > : > >
> > > : > > gardenia doesn't suspect.. she knows as her name shows up on the
> > > : > > List of Liz enablers
> > > : >
> > > : > Well, I don't think mine has lately, but it certainly has enough
in
> > > : > the past.
> > > : >
> > > : > > that being said.. There's something I want to toss into this
> > > : > > mix...
> > > : > >
> > > : > > Liz had dinner the other night with someone from this forum..
Why
> > > : > > does this person and Liz wish to keep their meeting secret?
> > > : > > Because both of them have said.. at different times, never
> > > : > > together.. that they *feared* the reaction of the group..
> > > : >
> > > : > Can't say as I blame them. I certainly wouldn't annouce it here if
> > > : > I were going to meet Liz.
> > > : >
> > > : > Dragon
>
>
>
>
>
>
Liz
intruded into anyone's life, and don't give me that 'I didn't REALLY
intend to call Pat's boss' shit when you said you *would. You said it
again and again and again and told her and us either she did what you
wanted or you would 'take her job'.
You said it, so please don't let the door hit you in your hairy ass in
your way back out.
> leaving the war to you. Discussion I do - wars I don't anymore. My email is
> open to anyone who has a geniune question they feel a need for an answer
> to.
>
> How you conduct yourself here and how pat conducts herself here is why so
> very many people have left this forum. It is but a shell of what it used to
> be in terms of numbers of people. We all still communicate thank goodness
> but in a different manner having made friendships that will outlast even
> the ugliness that seems unable to leave this place in the form of flaming
> and fighting. It is why I left - when I participate in it I become part of
> that ugliness - like now. But too much has been said about my making pat's
> life miserable - when I have have no contact with her in two months and
> before that - only when she telephoned me. I have not been to her home and
> she has not been to mine. She presents it like I am constantly threatening
> her in real life - and that is simply not happening and has not happened.
> It will never happen. I'm getting weary of reading about it, and hearing
> about it.
>
> I am sure you can find things to war about that are more current than flame
> wars a year old that have been long since resolved and most of the parties
> having moved on.
>
Liz
*else?? REALLY??
God, if half of these people would spend half as much time NOT doing
what they accuse everyone else of so shrilly this would be a waaay
better place to post.
Bikerbabe
that *she doesn't even know what she *thinks she knows. sheesh!!
I hope, I truly hope.....oh forget it.
bikerbabe
"Dragon" <mds...@nospam.pionet.net> wrote in message
news:thlotpi...@corp.supernews.com...
Bikerbabe
the flaming....well in case you didn't notice Suzanne...this whole goddamn
thread is a flame post!! for god's sakes woman, *You need to get a life and
you know what Suzanne ALOT of us were here when that lovely little flame
fest you started, where you say that you didn't threaten Pat and all this
stuff is in her head ...blah, blah, blah.....bullshit. You are so full of
bullshit and so full of yourself you make me sick. You did do it and you
still are doing it, so why not take a bit of your own advice woman...and GET
A FRIGGIN" LIFE!
You know I have held my tongue when it has come to you, partly because we
have alot of the same friends and partly because when I feel this much
disgust over a person, it is best for me not to engage in any conversation
with them but guess what......I don't give a goddamn shit anymore. Everyone
keeps going on and on about how abusive Liz is and you know what, I know she
has been but I would much rather deal with the likes of her, up front and in
my face than with the likes of you... sliming, back stabbing, poisonous
snake who smiles all the way, while you quietly and behind the persons back,
you cut them up and feed them to the wolves.
I don't know where in the hell you get off thinking that you are so fucking
smart and why you think that your opinion is so important that you think
that you can insert yourself into any conversation that you feel like!!!
Do I sound just a little bit angry? Do you think that I now must have anger
issues Suzanne because "Oh my gosh, I didn't deserve this!" and "Why are you
calling me names?" and on and on it goes. You will try and twist this around
to make it look like I am just a very very angry person....bullshit. For
almost two years, I have sat back and watched you, the way you operate, how
you manipulate people and situations and since this thread is all about
those very things, I felt that this was a good place for me to say what I
have wanted to say for a very long time. If everyone wants to start naming
names, calling Liz an abuser and Pat is lying and off her rocker and James,
well you all just laugh and laugh at James don't you....especially you
Suzanne. Well, you Suzanne need help because you can look someone in the
face and be all nicey nice and then turn around and tell everyone who will
listen, what a horrible, horrible person they are. I don't think that I have
ever come across someone who can manipulate people the way you can...it
blows my mind.
Now...I don't give a rat's ass what you have to say about me or to me, go
ahead and have a ball, I really could care less.
You know, the only reason, or at least one of them, why I decided to come
back here, was because I had heard that you were no longer here. So, if you
are back, I am outa here. You make me *that sick to my stomach that I will
not even stay here to talk with my friends. Blech!
To the rest of the ng...I am sorry for this outburst but I just couldn't
hold it any longer, nor will I. I am sorry if I triggered anyone, I did not
mean to.
Bikerbabe-steamin', flamin'...pissed off.
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106040057...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
is
> open to anyone who has a geniune question they feel a need for an answer
> to.
>
> How you conduct yourself here and how pat conducts herself here is why so
> very many people have left this forum. It is but a shell of what it used
to
> be in terms of numbers of people. We all still communicate thank goodness
> but in a different manner having made friendships that will outlast even
> the ugliness that seems unable to leave this place in the form of flaming
> and fighting. It is why I left - when I participate in it I become part of
> that ugliness - like now. But too much has been said about my making pat's
> life miserable - when I have have no contact with her in two months and
> before that - only when she telephoned me. I have not been to her home and
> she has not been to mine. She presents it like I am constantly threatening
> her in real life - and that is simply not happening and has not happened.
> It will never happen. I'm getting weary of reading about it, and hearing
> about it.
>
> I am sure you can find things to war about that are more current than
flame
> wars a year old that have been long since resolved and most of the parties
> having moved on.
>
gardenia
"Bikerbabe" <bike...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:v7DS6.362363$166.7...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com...
: why did you come back Suzanne if you are not interested in becoming part
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Bikerbabe
"Just Lis" <jus...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106032123...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Hi, Bikerbabe.
>
> > ya know what Mark and whoever the hell else is going to put me in this
> > category and undoubtedly many of you always have...I have on many
> > occasions spoken up and talked to Liz about some of the stuff she has
> > done and the comments that she has made, the difference when we do it,
is
> > that we normally take it to email because I prefer to hear both sides to
> > the story and anytime it gets brought out here, nothing ever gets
> > resolved....not usually anyways.I prefer to do it that way with many of
> > the people here because otherwise, every rabid dog gets involved and
then
> > I never seem to get to the bottom of things. Many issues are left
> > unresolved and they still are.
>
> I think the concern becomes when people talk to their close friends only
> privately in e-mail or messages, and when they talk to others very
> publicly. It leaves things looking very lopsided, and that is where I
begin
> to have a problem seeing any kind of objectivity. Of course no one can
know
> what is happening behind the scenes. And you have every right to talk with
> whomever you wish in the manner that you wish. But the appearances are
> stark, when one person speaks with extreme cruelty to another, as Liz did
> to Deb and to Mark, and the result is relative silence about her
> actions.... And then when another objects to that cruelty and explores the
> reasons for that disparity, as Mark has done in this thread, he is met
with
> a chorus of fury.
well Lis, I am not going to get into this well "you do this and so and so
does this" thing.
Because there have been many times where I have been flamed from here to
hell and then
the only time "some" people would ever offer me support was in email because
they didn't
want anyone to know that they were doing so. What is the difference? Why is
it, that this
only includes *some people? See...this is what *I don't get....call me
stupid I guess. I guess
maybe you might have missed my post to Liz that was in support of Debster
and the way that
Liz had spoken to her...it was uncalled for and I said so. But you know
what, I am not here
for a popularity contest, I never have been because if I was, then I guess I
would have long
since cut Liz out of my life. The thing with me is this...coming from the
life that I have, and I
am not talking about the abuse, I am talking about having grown up with
bikers and being
painted with a certain brush that ALL bikers are painted with...oh she's
bad, don't trust her,
she''ll hurt you or steal from you or try and get you on drugs etc etc etc
etc etc So now, I tend
to view people with a vastly different opinion that most people. The reality
for me Lis, is that
in this ng, everyone has been or will be guilty of something that others
don't sgree with, or think
is right, or understand......it happens everyday here. It really isn't just
about Liz, it's about ALL
of us. We are each inividuals that have experienced many of the same but
also many different
things in life and each one of us has our own opinion about what and how
everyone else is
dealing with these things. Some stand out more than others but WE have all
done things that
we are not proud of....haven't we?
>
> > I do not allow anyone to tell me what tune I am supposed to skip
> > to...never. I know that many of you believe otherwise and so be it. I am
> > not here to try and prove myself to anyone or so that people can sooth
my
> > pain.
>
> You've always impressed me as someone who thinks for herself. I haven't
> always agreed with your conclusions, but I doubt you've always agreed with
> mine. :-)
you are right there :)
>
> > I have more that I could say to this but I need to get to work but I am
> > sure that I will come back to a flurry of stuff. Oh and by the way...I
do
> > flame the troll people because they are not regular posters here and
most
> > of the time they are just here to cause havoc and trouble.I don't feel
> > bad about that, so shoot me, it might make me feel better or at least
> > that would take the pain away. *sigh bikerbabe
>
> I'm sorry you're in pain, Bikerbabe.... If you want to talk further, my
> e-mail is always open to you.
thanks Lis, take care.
bikerbabe
gardenia
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106040057...@asarian-host.net...
: x-no-archive: yes
:
: Well Liz - this would be my last post to this or any post here - flaming
: here is not my idea of fun anymore and I can feel the old racing of my
: heart and anger whelling up as I am sure is a familiar feeling to you -
but
: it doesn't invigorate me - just makes me feel bad about myself. Not
: something I want to feel.
this thread as been a flame thread from the beginning.. Liz didn't start
it.. Mark did..
And his purpose from re-appearing would have been what? To flame Liz?
And yours would be what? To flame Liz?
Same goes for Lisa's 13 posts today..
: I don't honestly know what posts are out there from over a year ago. I
know
: a lot was said by both pat and I in anger. A lot has been said back and
: forth by other folks to other folks since and the story has grown and
: grown. I do know that I was very upset at the time and in the middle of a
: flame war. A lot of issues in my real world, my mother's death,
: fibromyalgia diagnosis, job layoff, a lot of loss and anger, something pat
: and I discussed at length when we resolved that war. I do know what has
: happened since. Since then I have have numerous conversations with pat and
: much resolution took place, until it was convenient for her to again raise
: old issues. I do know that much was apologized for by me and much was
: discussed between us.
There was no resolution about anything.. I still have every single post
made to QWN-Talk. I'll be more than happy to foward them to you as a little
memory refresher..
: I also know - that at no time have I intruded into pat's real life or for
: that matter anyone's here. Something that you cannot say or that pat
cannot
: say. It doesn't matter what you say you know happened. What does matter is
: "I" know what I did and didn't do and what I didn't do was enter pat's
real
: life in any way shape or form.
In case you missed the news, Google has done a *very* good job of bringing
the archive back online..
and not to mention James' collection of archival CDs..
: These kinds of flamewars are what I became addicted to - completely as if
: it were a drug. It is also what I left and will again after this post and
: will feel great about being able to do that. Posting what I have to say
and
: leaving the war to you. Discussion I do - wars I don't anymore. My email
is
: open to anyone who has a geniune question they feel a need for an answer
: to.
You've never *discussed*..
You live to Flame.. Period...
:
: How you conduct yourself here and how pat conducts herself here is why so
: very many people have left this forum. It is but a shell of what it used
to
: be in terms of numbers of people. We all still communicate thank goodness
: but in a different manner having made friendships that will outlast even
: the ugliness that seems unable to leave this place in the form of flaming
: and fighting. It is why I left - when I participate in it I become part of
: that ugliness - like now. But too much has been said about my making pat's
: life miserable - when I have have no contact with her in two months and
: before that - only when she telephoned me. I have not been to her home and
: she has not been to mine. She presents it like I am constantly threatening
: her in real life - and that is simply not happening and has not happened.
: It will never happen. I'm getting weary of reading about it, and hearing
: about it.
:
Get over Liz.. It's in the past Suzanne.. Let it go..
: I am sure you can find things to war about that are more current than
flame
: wars a year old that have been long since resolved and most of the parties
: having moved on.
:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: "Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net>
: Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 7:28 PM
: Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
:
: > Wrong, sorry and James and I made sure your posts saying the exazct
:
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Bikerbabe
"Just Lis" <jus...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106032123...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Hi again, Bikerbabe.
>
> > hi special, I am not really sure exactly *who Mark is talking about (and
> > yeh, I wish I could read minds sometimes too and then there are times
> > when I wish people would read mine! If ya know what I mean!) but he made
> > the post without naming names and I happen to know for a fact that there
> > are a few people who do lump me into this "category". Obviously, these
> > are people that don't know me very well and that I don't converse with
on
> > a regular basis but it still burns my ass when this kind of crap gets
> > brought out again and again. We've been down this road a hundred
friggin'
> > times, enuff already, ya know? I am pretty sure that it is abundantly
> > clear who does and doesn't like Liz in this ng, so why is there a need
to
> > keep bringing it up? Did some people all of a sudden forget?
>
> No, I don't think it's possible to forget that we object to Liz's cruel
> behavior. But when she continues to expand the depths of that cruelty and
> extend it to new targets (and revisit the old ones), is it more noble of
us
> to look the other way and say nothing?
no of course not Lis. I would never expect anyone here to look the other way
if someone hurts them...never. But what about the other people here who
continously harrass and cut people down and all of the poeple that go on and
on about Liz, never say a goddamn thing to any of them. Why is that? What's
good for the goose is good for the gander all that.*THAT is what pisses me
off. Just because they do it in a different way, does not mean that it
*hurts any less. Pain for one person may not be pain for another and vice
versa.
> We've been down this same road from Liz a hundred friggin' times, as well,
> with her libeling Mark in dozens upon dozens of posts, revisiting her
> cruelty to Debster in one of the darkest hours of Deb's life, attacking
> Windy's parenting skills dozens upon dozens of times, piling on to call KC
> a liar when she consistently produced the very posts to which she was
> referring, attacking Carey for trying to examine her abuse, in an attempt
> to look at the nature of abuse itself.... And how many others of us have
> been pounded dozens of times by Liz???
How many more times do we have to put up with Suzanne and her crap? And I
could name others but this isn't what it's about...how much should any of us
have to take???? I really.......if you look at my post to Suzanne you will
see that the stuff that she has sone, has really affected me but does anyone
care about that, does anuone , except for a couple, EVER say anything to her
publically??? Not that I have seen.
>
> Where are the objections to HER going down this same road a hundred
> friggin' times??? Or are they all different roads where she's concerned,
> just because she reloads and changes targets???
I have stated my objections both here and in email in regards to Liz, but
again...who the hell is keeping score of everybody? Is there someone who
keeps count? Cuz, I'd really like to know that answer in regards to Suzanne
as well. We are in agreement with this Lis but even when she isn't here and
the same shit goes on, what's that about? Who's fault is it then......Liz's
it seems.
>
> > And yes, you are correct, I do have friends on both sides of the fence
> > and for that I am grateful because it shows to me that those people care
> > about me for me and not for who I am friends with...and that IS what is
> > important to me.
>
> And that is important to me, too. I consider you my friend, as I do others
> who have friendships with Liz. I've never been one to force people to make
> choices between friends. And I'm glad you aren't either.
>
> > There are some people here who are viewed as the "good" people that I
> > have seen do some nasty, fucked up shit and I think that it is always
> > good to take a reality check of ones own backyard first before claiming
> > sainthood.
>
> I agree. I really wish more people would do so. Not that I've seen anyone
> claiming sainthood at all....
then I guess you have missed a few posts because I sure as hell have...just
not in those words.
Bikerbabe
James
<bike...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
<v7DS6.362363$166.7...@news1.rdc1.bc.home.com> the
following:
>To the rest of the ng...I am sorry for this outburst but I
>just couldn't hold it any longer, nor will I. I am sorry if
>I triggered anyone, I did not mean to.
>
I don't see any reason for *you* to be apologizing,
BikerBabe. None at all.
Now if you were making this shit up, that would be an
entirely different story... but you ain't... that shit
stinks so bad because it is shit. You didn't put it there,
and there is no reason for you to apologize for the stink.
James
<gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
<w9BS6.793$BH5.75...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> the
following:
>you're lying to yourself suzanne..
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^everyone^^^^^^^^^^
Kaitlyn
<wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>x-no-archive: yes
>
>Oh lord - is there anyone out there who does not realize by now that you
>met Ghostwolf in real life?
First you SAID you were not going to post again. Well I guess you
lied because you just posted. Second, WHY are you here? If you don't
like it here anymore LEAVE (again)! Third, You did so threathen Pat
with the loss of her job, and maybe you just don't remember because
you were so fucking crazy back then. Fourth, I didn't know Liz had
met Wolfie, if this is true, than you just told everyone here
something HE did't want us to know. Way to go Crisis. And if it was
Wolfie who met Liz, than I'm happy about that. I respect Wolfie's
opinion on people. Fifth why not just go to whereever it is that you
and your "friends" are having such a nice time talking and have a nice
time, and leave those who are happy HERE alone.
Kaitlyn
>
>What is the big deal? If you hadn't wanted people to know - then pat should
>not have posted all she did - its not rocket science to figure it out.
>
>Lordy - what a stir over nothing.
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net>
>Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
Shardik
sharnews:200106040026...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> Oh lord - is there anyone out there who does not realize by now that you
> met Ghostwolf in real life?
>
Shardik
Kaitlyn <sava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:cq5mht82eo9ir2e3h...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 3 Jun 2001 19:33:09 -0500, windswept
> <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> >x-no-archive: yes
> >
> >Oh lord - is there anyone out there who does not realize by now that you
> >met Ghostwolf in real life?
>
> First you SAID you were not going to post again. Well I guess you
> lied because you just posted. Second, WHY are you here? If you don't
> like it here anymore LEAVE (again)! Third, You did so threathen Pat
> with the loss of her job, and maybe you just don't remember because
> you were so fucking crazy back then. Fourth, I didn't know Liz had
> met Wolfie, if this is true, than you just told everyone here
> something HE did't want us to know. Way to go Crisis. And if it was
> Wolfie who met Liz, than I'm happy about that. I respect Wolfie's
> opinion on people. Fifth why not just go to whereever it is that you
> and your "friends" are having such a nice time talking and have a nice
> time, and leave those who are happy HERE alone.
>
> Kaitlyn
Shit, you took the words right outta my mouth!
shar
Shardik
Excellent post!
shar
Shardik
> that matter anyone's here.
Maybe you, too, could use a little Aricept.
shar
Shardik
>
> you're lying to yourself suzanne..
again . . .
gardenia
James has been kind enough to engage in a search and retrieve mission.. He
searched through all 19MB of Suzanne's posts last year and sent me a
selected few of those posts she doesnt remember posting...
That being said, after she posted this to me, she approached me on IRC. I
plan on posting her admission and apology to this group later tonight. She
was unable or unwilling to post back to this post with a simple admission of
what she did and apologize.. instead she gave me permission to post the
discussion we had on IRC regarding this very subject.
As soon as I hear back from Mark (or not, as the case may be) I will post
the words I have waited so long to see..
"Shardik" <Shard...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:Bi_S6.55$XN6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
:
: windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
:
:
Skitch
it was him though. GW never crossed my mind. Anyways. I think its cool not
only that Liz went but that GW asked her. Or Liz asked GW. Ive never met
anyone from irc that didnt "want" something from me. Ive met so many pervs
and other abusers from irc that now Im to afraid to meet a "nice" person.
Every time Ive been asked Ive come up with a million reasons that I
shouldnt. I was even afraid to meet Wog of all people. Its amazing the
number of people that will abuse and take advantage of a young kid out
there.
Anyways. I think its cool if thats who Liz met. I think it says a lot of
both them.
Skitch
Why does it matter? If you know what is the truth then thats all that should
matter. Same for Windy and anyone else who knows the truth. I doubt a log
will settle this. If a log is posted SOMEONE will say that it is doctored.
You guys will never settle this ongoing fighting.news:lf4T6.25$Ap2.35...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Luna
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106051513...@asarian-host.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> I am and remain as I said in what you will post, very sorry that last year
> happened at all. It doesn't feel good to hurt another or make them afraid
> by saying and posting angry words or threats. I did that and although I
> would never move into someones real life it caused pat and others pain and
> fear. Its never right for anyone to threaten someone's real life status -
This is real life too though. Reach out. Tap your screen.
Ouch! not so hard!!
> not even in anger and I did that along with some pretty lousy flames that
> were mean and not necessary and only fed my addiction and it was not right
> when I did it and it remains not right. No matter how many justifiable
> reasons anyone can come up with something like that is just plain wrong
and
> I was just plain wrong in doing it.
I can totally relate to this, as you know.
When you say "fed your addiction" do you mean anger is your addiction?
Because i can see that - the rush of it, the feeling of power that it can
give could be seen as a way of altering your consciousness. Addiction is a
bit of a stretch for naturally occurring emotions but still - i can see
where i've used anger to avoid other emotions in the past. (the past ie -
yesterday)
>
> It is the kind of thing that helps run a newsgroup down - the continual
> wars back and forth also do that. I contributed to those wars and I, out
of
> anger, put words to some revenge fantasies that I had no intention of
> following up on. I did it to scare at the time. Having seen the long
> lasting affects of doing something like that, I've learned its not a good
> thing ever to do. It did not make me feel any better at the time and
> looking back on it - it just embarrasses me taht I could act like that.
>
> So not only do I apologize to pat for frightening her last year when I did
> that - but I apologize to the group as a whole for conducting myself in
> such a way as to put that fear here. My addiction is flaming and I let it
> get out of control.
Ah, so that answers that question, thank you.
>
> I hope that we can move on into some peace. I will continue to not be
> posting but I will pledge to stick to the tone and spirit of my apology
and
> not again indulge in putting revenge fantasies into words or join in the
> flaming. Its addictive for me and I get way to far carried away.
>
> I hope the posting of the log helps people see that there is never a good
> reason to carry on in this sort of matter - it just causes long lasting
> problems for a lot of folks. One moment of anger or even several moments
of
> anger can result in a year of bad feelings. Its just not worth it for me
to
> vent anger and have folks feel bad that long or at all.
ah, lovely.
i hope you are well, suzanne, and continue to do what is best for you.
jean
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 7:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
>
Bobbi Perrin
Your post touched me deeply. I too over this last year have had problems with
my vengeful anger, not here in the NG per se, but in a RL personal
relationship..
I have been listening to some tapes I got from church this weekend. One is on
managing anger, another is giving and receiving respect, letting go of ego, and
more that I haven't listened to yet.
Yesterday while I was at the beach I was listening to one of the tapes... and on
it the pastor was saying that when someone is rude or hurtful to us, we NEED to
return love instead of anger, love builds up, anger and revenge tears down and
destroys. Reckless words pierce like a sword but the tongue of the wise brings
healing.
As a survivor, for so many years no one protected me, stood up for me, defended
me and this last year I thought I was protecting myself from what I perceived as
a dear friend's continual and intentional rudeness and unkindness... but all I
did was escalate the problems we shared by returning his thoughtless unkind
words with cruel words of my own. I thought I could "show" him that he was
deeply hurting my feelings, by returning his meanness in measure, thinking he
would feel what I felt if I did the same to him. Rather the opposite occurred,
I was out of control.... and merely feebly attempting to justify my own cruel
words. I was acting revengeful... and I hated myself for it! Sadly my
friendship with this person that I cared about so very very much, has never
recovered. I am so sad that my anger and need for revenge ruined all hope for
regaining/rebuilding friendship with this man. I have tried to apologize and
make amends but I think he will never trust me again. My hateful hurtful words
did NOT make me beautiful in his eyes, nor did my words make him respect or
understand me. Rather he is afraid and apprehensive of me to this day. It
doesn't matter that my words were "truthful" but it does matter that I was
overly judgmental, critical, cruel, rude, and wallowing in frustrated rage.
The tape continues by saying rudeness is a weak person's imitation of
strength. I ended up hurting myself more than him.... my anger festered and
grew and I nurtured it with justifications that he had hurt me repeatedly so how
could he "expect" me to treat him better than he was treating me? The tape also
goes on to say I need to be gentle, not judgmental when speaking "truthfully",
when I disagree with someone. Christ got angry but he didn't seek to punish
nor get revenge. Some other words I liked are: when we are abrasive we are
never persuasive. I look back over this last fall, and winter and wonder what
in the hell was I thinking? Why did I let myself get so out of control? How in
the hell did I allow myself to literally give in to the massive rage inside of
me? I remember thinking at one time, hell since he has been telling me he
doesn't love me, who cares, I have nothing to lose.... I might as well blow it
big time so that I will outright make him hate me... and then he will never come
around and I wouldn't be able continue to hold onto hope that someday he may
respect, understand, appreciate and/or feel love/compassion for me..... I think
I even told him that since we were so attracted to each other that I was
"intentionally" trying to get him to hate me so he wouldn't keep coming around.
But I "really" didn't want him to hate me, not at all....
So these days I am really working on seeking out wise counsel, such as church,
and buying the tapes that I listen to more often that I watch TV or listen to
music... And it has been like a light bulb turning on in my mind... I am seeing
where I turned away from what I used to believed in, where I decided I was going
to do things "my" way....because my survivor issues made it necessary that I
didn't ALLOW someone to victimize me...I was always on the ready for attacks on
my rights, my needs, my feelings, and I screamed out my anger and rage if I felt
I was being mistreated. I wasn't going to let him get away with it by God... I
was going to SHOW him what it felt like when I thought he was purposely
provoking me, hurting me, disrespecting me or mistreating me. Yuck.... what a
waste of my soul... of my heart.... and how I misused the gifts I have been
given... (my skills/talent with words both written and spoken).
It is finally sinking into my thick skull, that being a survivor of abuse does
not grant me special privileges, nor can it be used as an excuse or
justification when I am being mean, rude, cruel, vengeful or vindictive. Even
if someone "is" intentionally provoking me by zeroing in on my buttons and
triggers, if I don't give myself time to reflect but merely "react" immediately,
I am directly feeding my soul sickness... No wonder I have felt so "dead" inside
this last 10 months or so.... my critical words, my judgmental and mean spirited
words to another human being, caused me to become callous, joyless, and
literally spiritually dead inside!!!!! Anger is meant to serve to protect us
if/when our lives are in real danger, ....but none of what I was going through
with my friend was placing me in any real danger. But I didn't stop to reflect
before I reacted... so the fears, hurts, frustrations and/or humiliations that
originally created my anger didn't get put into proper perspective....in fact
the more I allowed my anger free reign the more angry and destructive I
became. I didn't feel pretty or beautiful let me assure you, nor was I proud
of myself. My anger didn't end with my words to my friend, I directed the worst
of it towards..... myself!!!
The good news is, I know I am loved... warts and all... Happily it is never
too late to learn new attitudes, to refocus on myself and the condition of my
own soul. I hope I don't grow tired of these tapes... of listening to these
words of simple wisdom.... and I hope I put what I am hearing into practice, so
that I may "walk the talk" I know that I will probably struggle with this
character defect of mine for the rest of my life... I will fall down again and
again I am sure... but it doesn't matter how many times I fall, it does matter
that I get right back up, see where I tripped up and make a commitment to
"remember" and see the abyss "before" I fall into it next time I find myself on
that road again. Hey maybe someday I will learn to take a completely different
route thereby avoiding the pit all together! I am an idealist after all! In
the Kiersey personality tests, I tested out as being a teacher/counselor type...
a complete and hopeless idealist. But I am generally lousy at following my own
words of advice! I wonder why that is?
Anyway, sorry for this long rambling collection of mumblings and musings.... I
wanted you to know I empathize, I understand, and I appreciate your candor.
I wish you continued healing and love windswept,
Seeker
windswept wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> I am and remain as I said in what you will post, very sorry that last year
> happened at all. It doesn't feel good to hurt another or make them afraid
> by saying and posting angry words or threats. I did that and although I
> would never move into someones real life it caused pat and others pain and
> fear. Its never right for anyone to threaten someone's real life status -
> not even in anger and I did that along with some pretty lousy flames that
> were mean and not necessary and only fed my addiction and it was not right
> when I did it and it remains not right. No matter how many justifiable
> reasons anyone can come up with something like that is just plain wrong and
> I was just plain wrong in doing it.
>
> It is the kind of thing that helps run a newsgroup down - the continual
> wars back and forth also do that. I contributed to those wars and I, out of
> anger, put words to some revenge fantasies that I had no intention of
> following up on. I did it to scare at the time. Having seen the long
> lasting affects of doing something like that, I've learned its not a good
> thing ever to do. It did not make me feel any better at the time and
> looking back on it - it just embarrasses me taht I could act like that.
>
> So not only do I apologize to pat for frightening her last year when I did
> that - but I apologize to the group as a whole for conducting myself in
> such a way as to put that fear here. My addiction is flaming and I let it
> get out of control.
>
> I hope that we can move on into some peace. I will continue to not be
> posting but I will pledge to stick to the tone and spirit of my apology and
> not again indulge in putting revenge fantasies into words or join in the
> flaming. Its addictive for me and I get way to far carried away.
>
> I hope the posting of the log helps people see that there is never a good
> reason to carry on in this sort of matter - it just causes long lasting
> problems for a lot of folks. One moment of anger or even several moments of
> anger can result in a year of bad feelings. Its just not worth it for me to
> vent anger and have folks feel bad that long or at all.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net>
> Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
> Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 7:28 AM
> Subject: Re: Vanitas Vanitorum
>
Kaitlyn
me. Will you admit that you believed that person who was calling
themselves "Self" was me? and will you tell me your sorry for that?
You hurt me very much that night in #cave.
You don't even have to do it in public, in email will do.
Kaitlyn
Posted and Emailed
gardenia
what follows is the log from the night of June 3....
we're coming up on another anniversary .. the anniversary of the day
suzanne flooded this newsgroup with the die witch die posts.. the posts..
that after 6 months of her flaming me and anyone who supported me in the
slightest.. finally cracked me up..
I hadn't talked to lisa or azure for months.. 2 of my best friends had fled
camp and taken to sleeping with my enemy .. i felt deserted and hurt...
ready to die.. those posts was all it took..
I'm not a crier.. I dont cry at funerals I dont cry when I stump my toe.. I
dont cry when I'm wounded.. I scream and I rant.. at anyone..
That morning when I opened the newsgroup to find all those die witch die
posts... there were a lot of them that night.. somewhere between 20-50 given
the claims of some..
I took those posts and removed my name.. I replaced my name with Lisa and
Azure's name.. and I forwarded that email to them... i said somethinglike
is this what you want? you want me dead like she does.. how could you do
this .. you said you were my friend you said you cared form mel. and
intesald you go laugh an dplay with her.. her that wants me dead
[22:37] <windy> I would be interested in hearing how it is I have threatened
your real life pat - if you are so inclined - just exactly in what way -
that you and I have not resolved
[22:39] <alexia> i am all for resolving conflicts
[22:39] <windy> me too
[22:40] <gardenia> make a public post admitting to what you did..
[22:40] <gardenia> google has the archive up for your convenience
[22:41] <alexia> maybe you guys can look at the archive together
[22:41] <alexia> ?
[22:41] <windy> Oh I have read all of those
[22:41] * alexia feels moderatorish
[22:41] <windy> I didn't see anything
[22:41] <gardenia> i know what's there
[22:41] <alexia> and talk about what you each see
[22:41] <windy> so I would like you to tell me - maybe I'm just not seeing
it
[22:41] <windy> talking always is best I think
[22:41] <windy> that way you can address what is giving another pain
[22:41] *** Joins: Dragon
[22:41] <gardenia> dragon..
[22:41] <Dragon> hi
[22:41] <gardenia> suzanne says that all issues were resolved
[22:42] <gardenia> and that she has acknowledged threatening me..
[22:42] * Dragon raises an eyebrow
[22:42] <gardenia> and apoligizes
[22:42] <windy> I didnt speak to dragon about the issues between us
[22:42] <gardenia> she was there on QWN-Talk suzanne
[22:42] <windy> when I do she will know - I will turn to her and speak her
name
[22:42] <Dragon> windy, where did you acknowledge threatening pat?
[22:42] <windy> she was not on the phone with you and I pat when she
resolved it all
[22:42] <gardenia> that's bullshit suzanne
[22:43] <gardenia> you didnt want to go there
[22:43] <windy> if you want to call in pet dogs thats not resolving
[22:43] <windy> thats fighting
[22:43] <gardenia> there are no dogs here
[22:43] <windy> I won't do that with either of you
[22:43] <Dragon> oh, goody, now I'm a pet dog
[22:43] <windy> no way
[22:43] <Dragon> bowwow
[22:43] <gardenia> that type of dehumanizing a person .. it's what hitler
did
[22:43] <alexia> i dont want fighting cant you look at it together
slllooooooooooowwwwwwe3llllllllllllllley
[22:43] <windy> you want to resolve - resolution is at had
[22:43] <Dragon> I ask a simple question and that makes me a pet dog
[22:43] <Dragon> what fun
[22:43] <windy> its is fun for you dragon
[22:43] <windy> thats whats sad
[22:44] <windy> but I can shut you out
[22:44] <Dragon> widny, get a clue
[22:44] <Dragon> it is *not* fun for me
[22:44] <Dragon> I think for myself, and I'm perfectly capable of seeing
your case of denial on the ng
[22:44] <Dragon> no matter what you said on the phone way back when
[22:44] *** Joins: swt_libra
[22:44] <Dragon> what you just said on the ng is that it never happened
***
[22:44] <gardenia> seeker.. suzanne is telling us how she never threatened
me
[22:44] <Dragon> so ignore me all you want, it won't do you any good, I'm
not the only one that sees it
***
[22:45] <windy> amazing pat - but when you want to talk with me directly
without a gang
[22:45] <windy> I'm here
[22:45] <windy> but not like this - never
***
[22:46] <swt_libra> Uhhhh ohhhhhhhh I am sorry this is still an issue
pat!!!!!! I know you need to hear an admittance.... but I don't know if you
will ever get the closure you need....
[22:46] <Dragon> windy - I asked you a simple question - and you called me a
pet dog. What kind of reaction were you *expecting* to get from a comment
like that.
***
[22:46] <windy> the issue is between pat and me
[22:46] <gardenia> seeker.. i dont expect i ever will... Denial runs deep
[22:46] <Dragon> You assumed antagonism that wasn't there - until you
assumed and responded like it was.
[22:46] <windy> that is who I will talk to
[22:47] <windy> no one else
[22:47] <windy> end of story
[22:47] <windy> the plot will remain that
***
[22:47] <Dragon> When you called me a pet dog, it stopped being between just
you and pat
[22:47] <Dragon> dream on, girl
[22:47] <windy> I am sorry I called dragon a dog
[22:47] <Dragon> thank you.
[22:47] <windy> that was un necessary
[22:47] <Dragon> now, I'm willing to listen if you want to talk it out, and
stay out of it.
[22:47] <windy> the rest of the issue is only between pat and I
[22:48] <swt_libra> yes I hear you pat.... but like I heard in church today,
sometimes the only way we are going to get respect is to give respect, which
means courtesies... little acts of kindness, not random acts of kindness but
INTENTIONAL acts of kindness....
[22:48] <gardenia> admit to what you did.. in the newsgroup.. and then we
can talk
***
***
[22:48] <windy> you need to discuss it pat
***
[22:48] <windy> I don't knonw what you issues are
[22:48] <swt_libra> and sometimes it means ONE person has to be willing to
walk away... to drop something... because otherwise it becomes a contest of
egos, and pride....
[22:48] <windy> I have in the past apologized to you for a great deal
[22:48] <windy> we covered a lot of territory
[22:49] <gardenia> in your imagination
[22:49] <windy> no pat - we talked a great length on the telephone
[22:49] <windy> there is no way I can deny that
[22:49] <windy> we did
[22:49] <windy> and we resolved a agreat deal
[22:49] <gardenia> no we didn't
[22:50] <windy> well then pat - all I can say is that for whatever reason
you are lying
[22:50] <gardenia> we talked a great deal about how someone was mindfukcing
kaitlyn
[22:50] <windy> and if you cannot be truthful - we cannot resolve the issues
[22:50] <windy> I know what I talked to you about
[22:50] <windy> and I know what i apologized for
[22:50] <swt_libra> ***
[22:50] <windy> I cannot do more than that
[22:50] <gardenia> do it publically suzanne..
***
***
[22:51] <gardenia> refresh my memory..
[22:51] <windy> pat - we resolved it between us
***
[22:51] <windy> publically - no
[22:51] <swt_libra> The ocean was COLD today, the sun was HOT, the water was
Cerulean Blue... and the sand was golden...
[22:51] <gardenia> post it.. tell me .. and these good folks just what it is
you apologized for doing..
[22:51] <windy> I will not be part of a flame war with that
***
***
[22:51] <windy> no pat
***
***
[22:51] <gardenia> then why did you come back and only flame???
[22:51] <windy> I don't flame you
[22:51] <windy> I don't past
[22:51] <windy> post
[22:51] <gardenia> because she lies.. and continues to lie ***
[22:51] <gardenia> She cant admit to doing anything..
[22:52] <windy> doing what pat
[22:52] <windy> ???
[22:52] <gardenia> says she didn't do what she apologized for
[22:52] <windy> doing what?
***
[22:52] <gardenia> treatening to take **************** to my boss at work
[22:52] <swt_libra> I am now looking golden and healthy.... strange how a
little church, some sun and listening to uplifting spiritual tapes, helps
the soul find peace and serenity!!!!!!
[22:52] <windy> say it out loud
[22:52] <gardenia> TREATENING TO *************** MY BOSS AT WORK
[22:52] <windy> which I apologized to you
***
[22:52] <windy> for
[22:52] <windy> and I also said to you - "you know I would never do that"
[22:53] <gardenia> *** I didn't post miles and miles about it this
evening
[22:53] <windy> and you said very kindly "I know"
[22:53] <gardenia> someone else needs to admit her wrongs then let it go
[22:53] <Dragon> ok, I'm going to say something here - if I can stay out of
it, can your friends do the same, windy?
[22:53] <windy> and we talked about an hour about it
[22:53] <gardenia> bull shit suzanne
***
[22:53] <windy> I don't "need" to do that pat
[22:53] <windy> you need for me to do that
***
[22:53] <swt_libra> ***
[22:53] <gardenia> she cant even admit to doing it
[22:53] <Dragon> STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[22:53] <windy> *** has let go, I have let go and we thought you had let go
[22:54] <gardenia> neither one of you have let go
[22:54] <windy> Of course I did it pat - I have never denied doing it
[22:54] <gardenia> neither one of you can admit that it was even done..
[22:54] <windy> I also said we resolved it
[22:54] <gardenia> that you did do it suzanne
[22:54] <gardenia> no suzanne it was not resolved
[22:54] <gardenia> you know
[22:54] <gardenia> i know
[22:54] <windy> you badgered one of my best friends *******
[22:54] <gardenia> everyone knows
[22:54] <windy> and I got upset
[22:54] <gardenia> and you did what?
[22:54] <windy> and everyone said bad things
[22:54] <gardenia> I DID NOT BADGER ***************
[22:54] <gardenia> LOOK AT **************
[22:54] <windy> and we all apologized for everything
[22:54] <gardenia> LOOK AT ***************
[22:54] <windy> except you
[22:55] <windy> you apologized to no one
[22:55] <windy> and you are at war over it still
[22:55] <windy> its sad
[22:55] <gardenia> I am not going to apologize to you
[22:55] <windy> we resolved it
[22:55] <swt_libra> I feel a need for a big group "big deep breath" coming
on!!!!!!!
[22:55] <gardenia> there is nothing to apologize to you for
[22:55] <windy> I'm breathing seeker
[22:55] <gardenia> not one damn thing
[22:55] <windy> and I did all resolve this all
[22:55] <windy> with pat on the phone
[22:55] <gardenia> liar
[22:56] <Dragon> {{{{{{{{{{{{seeker}}}}}}}}}}}
[22:56] <windy> well I will say it again for the record
[22:56] <windy> I am sorry pat that you thought I would step into your real
life - and that I said anything to give you that feeling - it was out of
anger and I truly did not mean it. I would never do that to anyonw and I am
sorry
[22:57] <windy> I am also sorry that we got into an argument over your
argument with ***
[22:57] <windy> it is not my place to judge your friendship with her
[22:57] <gardenia> Are you sorry for posting threat after threat to step
into my life?
[22:57] <windy> but that is **** to coment upon
[22:57] <windy> I just stated that I was sorry for posting anything to make
you think I would step into your real life
[22:57] <windy> I would never do that and said it out of anger
[22:58] <gardenia> Are you sorry for saying you would take newsgroup stuff
and ******** to my boss?
[22:58] <gardenia> for posting it..
[22:58] <gardenia> time after time after time????
[22:58] <windy> I believe I answered that above
***
[22:58] <gardenia> yo have not
[22:58] <windy> I didn't post it I believe
[22:58] <gardenia> it's in google suzanne.
[22:58] <windy> but I said it and again - that is included in that I said
things out of anger
[22:58] <windy> and I would never do that
[22:58] <windy> every
[22:58] <swt_libra> Pat I mean this respectfully, but it "appears" to me
that you feel badly about things in the past... and you "need" to feel like
people aren't harboring bad thoughts or feelings about you... which speaks
to me, from experience that you still feel fear and perhaps some guilt over
things that you "think" others hold you accountable for.... The only person
that can free you from this, really, is you.... forgive yourself.... forgive
you your human
[22:58] <gardenia> and james can find many examples.. complete with headers
if you would like
[22:58] <swt_libra> ness....
[22:59] <windy> I sould not step into anyone's life in real time and if I
posted it - I am truly sorry
[22:59] <gardenia> Say it publically
[22:59] <windy> I would not step into your or anyone's real life and either
the action of doing it or the threat of doing it is wrong
[22:59] <windy> I am pat
[22:59] <gardenia> Say it to your post tonight where you wrote paragraphs
after paragraph
[22:59] <gardenia> saying I made it all up
[22:59] <windy> no
[22:59] <alexia> gardenia--do you want to shame her
[22:59] <windy> I am saying it here publically now
[23:00] <windy> I will not post again
[23:00] <windy> you can certainly post what I am saying here if you like
[23:00] <gardenia> You posted tonight that I made it all up ..
[23:00] <gardenia> that it was in my head
[23:00] <gardenia> You can retract it..
[23:00] <windy> go for it
[23:00] <gardenia> Publically
[23:00] <windy> pat - I will not post
[23:00] <gardenia> You did it again tonight
[23:00] <windy> I am apologizing here now in front of people
[23:01] <gardenia> I want to hear your retraction
[23:01] <windy> do you want me to promise not to post again?
[23:01] <windy> you did pat
[23:01] <windy> here
[23:01] <gardenia> said to all the people you went and re-told your fucking
lies to
[23:01] <gardenia> every single person who has read or will read that post
[23:01] <windy> I did it here and you get that
[23:01] <windy> I think thats enough
[23:01] <gardenia> I dont
[23:01] <windy> you have my permission to post it
[23:01] <swt_libra> I just heard windy admit and apologize... please to keep
pushing the issue, it borders on shaming someone... and I don't mean any
disrespect nor judgment
[23:01] * alexia agrees
***
[23:02] <gardenia> I have your permission to post a log of this apology and
admission to the newsgroup?
[23:02] <Dragon> will you settle for that, pat?
[23:02] <James> <windy> you have my permission to post it
[23:02] <swt_libra> thank you ***
[23:02] <windy> please post it in its entirety
***
[23:02] <Dragon> I will agree to have it posted
[23:02] <Dragon> if that's what you both want
[23:02] <gardenia> i will remove all names and references to people who
speak up now
[23:03] <windy> absolutely
[23:03] <James> I have no problem with posting anything said here tonight.
***
[23:03] <windy> I apologized for acting badly a year ago - I did - there is
no getting around that
[23:03] <alexia> you can post me what the hell
[23:03] <windy> I was wrong
***
[23:03] <alexia> i have nothing to be ashamed of i am bald as a baby's butt
[23:04] <windy> truly lex?
[23:04] <alexia> i know *** but it makes it more complicated and then there
are no witnesses
[23:04] <alexia> the witnesses are important
[23:04] <alexia> windy i am a writer
[23:04] <windy> yes I believe that
[23:04] <alexia> i go in there all the time
[23:04] <windy> shave your head?
[23:04] <windy> cool
[23:04] <alexia> i cannot be ashamed or i will never write another sentence
[23:04] <alexia> nono
[23:04] <windy> oh ok
[23:04] <alexia> my ability
***
***
[23:04] <Dragon> you don't have to cut me out either, windy and I have
resolved our part in this.
[23:05] <alexia> witness/testimony
[23:05] <windy> thats good dragon - and I am sorry for calling you a dog
[23:05] <alexia> don't drag it out there are already watchers
[23:05] <windy> I gotta bad mouth someties
[23:05] <windy> that would be mouth sometimes
[23:05] <Dragon> don't we all?
[23:05] <Dragon> :P
******
[23:05] <alexia> also respect
***
[23:06] <swt_libra> We all do at times windy! You sure hear me when I get
going! I can put sailor's to shame, truck drivers, you name it!
[23:06] <windy> hee hee I never heard you do that bobbi - cough
[23:06] <alexia> who's in here say it
[23:06] * windy doubles over with coughing fit
[23:06] <alexia> names list
[23:07] <windy> bobbi - I was asked recently and could not answer - and I do
care a great deal
***
***
***
***
***
***
[23:08] <windy> definitely - what I said can be posted
***
***
[23:08] <windy> I agree that those who do not want to be in there should be
removed
[23:08] <alexia> to verify it's authenticity
[23:08] <azure> sheesh... i picked a helluva time to quit drinking
***
[23:08] <alexia> not just that it's posted
***
[23:08] <alexia> we are here we verify that
***
***
***
[23:09] <alexia> i know
***
***
[23:09] <alexia> but i feel like there's a lot at stake
***
[23:09] <alexia> and that means
***
[23:09] <windy> post those who agree and nothing about the others
[23:10] <alexia> that this isn't going anywhere easily
***
***
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106040018...@asarian-host.net...
: x-no-archive: yes
:
:
:
: ----- Original Message -----
: From: "gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net>
: Newsgroups: alt.abuse.recovery
: --
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Liz
*quietly. It's been my experience that these so called 'good' ones, the
'quiet' ones, are the ones most in denial, least likely to be doing any
work on themselves at all, and almost always land on people, in irc, in
e mail, out of sight of the ng, waiting like spiders in webs and they
attack with such righteous ...they *exalt in their pain and
righteousness. They never seem able to come right out and say I'm so
angry. It's always something to the effect of 'you wounded me so deeply
and I'll never get over it....please don't hurt me anymore,' especially
when you are trying to talk to *them about how they hurt *you.
I've never been able to respect any of them, even when I cared most for
a couple of them. I just can't find anything to respect about people
who love their victimhood and for whom it's their entire identity,
people who wouldn't know what to do or be if not for victims, people who
ought to thank god they have an excuse for the waste they are making of
themselves and what they do to their families because of it. I've just
never understood it.
It took me a long, LONG time to get to a point where I saw through this
shit, Pat. I'm not saying what I see is THE truth, but I used to think
I was a piece of shit because the quiet ones all disliked me so. They
just *seemed so much nicer...but all it really is is *quieter. The
people who seem to like the pain the most, who are afraid to work on
*themselves because then they would lose all their excuses, they pay so
much attention to pointing out how nasty everyone *else is so you won't
notice how nasty and ugly *they are, and so many of them can be so
*ugly. I used to think there was righteousness, them, and evil, me.
Now I see it's just different bullshit. I walked away from Lisa because
I could not stand her weakness. I could not stand the way she was
willing to offer other people up, sacrifice them to save herself. The
way she seemed to need her pain, to cuddle it so closely, to be so
unwilling to let it go, to stop beating other people up or trying to
shut them up with her pain. She seemed utterly unwilling to look at the
way her issues were hurting her kids, or even that there was the
possibillity. She just seemed to want to hurt. I simply work too hard
to get over mine, to keep it from hurting the people I love to have
continued to tolerate it in her. I could not *respect her.
I don't mean that as a flame. I'm saying only that there are people I
can care about, wish the best for, but never take seriously, never
respect. They can be the nicest people in the world. They often are
very kind people. They often have moments of great strength and insight
on behalf of other people...but would laugh themselves into a coma at
the idea of aiming that strength and perception at *themselves, no
matter the cost to themselves or those around them. Perpetually
frightened, and full of the kind of nastiness that *only a perpetual
victim can perpetuate in the name of righteousness.
I wish I could say what I mean to, better. I hesitated to say anything
at all because I know so many will think it is just flaming, but it
isn't. It's the truth as I see it...without malice, my observations, my
reasoning for why I feel the way I do, in the hopes that you understand
that it isn't *you. Some people need a boogeyman to be victimized by
and become full of righteous anger about, Pat. Once they have found a
target, once they have decided what is good and ok and what is bad and
not ok, they will attack you endlessly if they think they can get you
and if you do not toe that line. They will weep and cajole, manipulate
in the worst ways possible and when you get pissed, will get suicidal
and claim it's all your fault for being angry with them, because they
simply cannot bear the pressure of your disfavor with their actions.
I don't know if you can ever be friends with azure or Lisa again. I
like azure. I hope the two of you can work it out, I hope if you love
Lisa and she really loves you, the two of you can work it out. But
don't feel like you did something wrong or are a lesser person because
they made dumb choices. Some people can *only make dumb choices, Pat,
and it doesn't always have anything at all to do with the people they
make them *about.
gardenia
"azure" <az...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106061409...@asarian-host.net...
: "gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
:
: > I hadn't talked to lisa or azure for months..
:
: See... this is the sticking point for me. this is where I have trouble. I
: remember very clearly talking lisa down from conversations with you in the
: weeks prior to her hospitalization. I believe it was via irc, but it could
: be other media too.
or it could be.. you talked lisa down from posts i wrote about how my
friends betrayed me..
I *know* I had no contact with you are lisa.. You 2 spent your time on
asarian, I did not. I didn't write any emails.. however, I may have foward
several of Suzanne's posts.. but directly writing or calling or chatting on
ICQ or IRC.. none until that day.. a year ago today.. it is..
: is one of you... um... stretching the truth, or hallucinating, or is this
: just a misunderstanding? a difference in word usage?
It's not me Azure.. I'm not stretching.. I've never denied that I called her
that day. I've never denied that I changed the words to Suzanne's posts,
puttting your name and her name in place of mine.
What I don't accept is the responsibility of those words.. they were not my
words.. they were penned by Suzanne.
If those words were powerful enough to send Lisa over the edge.. Think what
6 months of posts after posts did for me and my state of mind. Think how I
felt as friend after friend left.. left after being subjected to the flames
from Suzanne when they dared speak on my behalf..
: If things are as I remember... I do not, and did not believe what you did
: was deliberately done to harm Lisa or drive her off the edge. I don't
: believe it was ever seriously proposed that it was deliberate.
I would suggest you go back to google and refresh your memory.. I would
suggest that you review what has been said in the year since... up to and
including last night..
: I'm sure you
: were appalled to find she was hospitalized. but there is a big difference
: between saying you "*deliberately* pushed Lisa off the edge" -- and that
: your actions, *not just for one night but over a long time,* were hurtful,
: and did contribute to the hospitalization. Not totally. But were a factor.
And see this is where we part company big time..
You, Lisa, me, betty, rosee.. we were friends.. Friends do not, in my book,
go play with someone who is kicking the living shit out of you.. Friends do
not tell you you deserve to be treated that way.. Friends do not turn their
back on you when you are hurting..
You and Lisa did... Betty and rosee, never did..
: > I'm not a crier.. I dont cry at funerals I dont cry when I stump my
toe..
: > I dont cry when I'm wounded.. I scream and I rant.. at anyone..
:
: yep. and I don't think you realize what it feels like to be on the
: receiving end of that.
I do not curl up in a ball and crawl in the closet crying my eyes out.
I do not take a knife and slice my arms to bits..
I do not reach for the bottle of pills and post i'm going to kill myself..
It is not me..
Frankly i find the crying, babyish show as disgusting as you find my banshee
screaching..
: it was not the delightful prospect of "sleeping with
: [your] enemy" that attracted us... but just the need to find some peace.
I didn't go where you went. I didn't go to #aar, I didn't to to #cave, I
didn't go to #aat..
You left.. went to the #cave.. after the good #cave.. bad #aar campaign that
was waged here in this newsgroup
: I could see the stress Lisa was under and needed to find a place of
safety.
: it was not the carrot that drove us, but the stick.
you ran to the stick.. the stick that had been beating me for months.. you
ran from my cries..
: there was no apology made to Lisa, according to her. however, I'd made my
: peace with it. accepted that whatever resolution could take place, had
: already taken place. lisa let it go, and I did not want to continue
hurting
Lisa, as evidenced by the past few nights on IRC and the emails in my
mailbox yesterday has not let it go.
I still hear demands from Lisa to admit to something I did not do..
I will not do that.
: her so I let it go. (and, frankly, I'm not a natural-born warrior. I'd
: usually prefer to be on cordial terms with people.) but it just seems
: ironic, in the face of all of the apologies and promises currently being
: required of Suzanne...
I accepted her apology. I wish her well. I do not wish her in my life.
Part of her apology was the demand that I never speak of my hurt in this
newsgroup or on channel.. That is something I am unwillign to do
:
: azure
:
Liz
defending you and taking monumental amounts of shit for it, we didn't
all walk away when it got tough, Pat.
Hang in there.
gardenia
not all liz.. not all.. james was there too.. as where you when you returned
"Liz" <sim...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:3B1EC5F6...@pacbell.net...
: Just a small aside, all your friends, or even all the people who were
: > :
James
<az...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<200106061409...@asarian-host.net> the following:
>"gardenia" <gard...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
>> I hadn't talked to lisa or azure for months..
>
>See... this is the sticking point for me. this is where I have trouble. I
>remember very clearly talking lisa down from conversations with you in the
>weeks prior to her hospitalization. I believe it was via irc, but it could
>be other media too.
>
>is one of you... um... stretching the truth, or hallucinating, or is this
>just a misunderstanding? a difference in word usage?
>
>If things are as I remember... I do not, and did not believe what you did
>was deliberately done to harm Lisa or drive her off the edge. I don't
>believe it was ever seriously proposed that it was deliberate.
azure... your memory if very, very different than what was
actually said at the time. Is your memory of events what
you base your beliefs and actions on?
>I'm sure you
>were appalled to find she was hospitalized. but there is a big difference
>between saying you "*deliberately* pushed Lisa off the edge" -- and that
>your actions, *not just for one night but over a long time,* were hurtful,
>and did contribute to the hospitalization. Not totally. But were a factor.
>
>> I'm not a crier.. I dont cry at funerals I dont cry when I stump my toe..
>> I dont cry when I'm wounded.. I scream and I rant.. at anyone..
>
>yep. and I don't think you realize what it feels like to be on the
>receiving end of that.
I believe you are grossly in error here, azure. I believe
Pat knows exactly how it feels to be subjected to months of
screaming and ranting... she also knows how it feels when
that screaming and ranting is about something and based on
something which is not true nor ever happened. By stark
contrast... the screaming and ranting and threats Pat was
subjected to and reacting to were *very* real.
>it was not the delightful prospect of "sleeping with
>[your] enemy" that attracted us... but just the need to find some peace. I
>could see the stress Lisa was under and needed to find a place of safety.
>it was not the carrot that drove us, but the stick.
>
An alternative would have been to be supportive of a friend
who was being beaten with a stick instead of abandoning her
because it was the more comfortable and peaceful thing to
do. Lis chose the company she felt attracted to and wanted
to be with and believe and she did so for her own reasons
just as she previously had. Pat did not choose to be
attacked. She had no say in the matter whatsoever.
>there was no apology made to Lisa, according to her. however, I'd made my
>peace with it. accepted that whatever resolution could take place, had
>already taken place. lisa let it go, and I did not want to continue hurting
>her so I let it go. (and, frankly, I'm not a natural-born warrior. I'd
>usually prefer to be on cordial terms with people.) but it just seems
>ironic, in the face of all of the apologies and promises currently being
>required of Suzanne...
>
>azure
James
<gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
<3EzT6.550$uU.111...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> the
following:
>
>not all liz.. not all.. james was there too..
Pat... you may take this the wrong way, though I really
hope you don't... but my defense of you while you were
under the first and subsequent attacks which were not based
on reality or truth and which you did not ask for... had
*nothing* to do with friendship. That's never what it was
about. You also got pretty pissed about it all and made no
bones about showing that. While you being so pissed was
very understandable given the situation, it was something I
could not and did not defend. My lack of defense also had
nothing to do with friendship or lack thereof. It's all
about something else.
Liz
James wrote:
>
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2001 00:10:39 GMT, "gardenia"
> <gard...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
> <3EzT6.550$uU.111...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com> the
> following:
>
> >
> >not all liz.. not all.. james was there too..
>
> Pat... you may take this the wrong way, though I really
> hope you don't... but my defense of you while you were
> under the first and subsequent attacks which were not based
> on reality or truth and which you did not ask for... had
> *nothing* to do with friendship.
Me either....Pat and I were hardly friends. but what was being done to
her was *wrong, whether you were her best friend or not.
And I defend how she got pissed, without equivocation. At some point,
you have to be able to fight *back, even if you have to poke out
someone's eyeballs or squish their balls. That's what they tell us iin
self defense classes, anyway.