If you think you have false memories
gogi...@my-deja.com
as you may think your accusations have ruined your relationship with
your parents, they may be waiting and praying and loving you every
day. No matter what harsh words have come between you, love conquers
all. Don't push your doubts aside just because you think it's too
late. It's never too late as long as you and they are living.
Families are reconciling every day, in different ways. Some accusers
retract, others simply call their parents one day. If years have
passed with no contact, the parents are usually so grateful to hear
from their lost child, they put no conditions on the reconciliation.
There is nothing like coming home after having been lost. It is a
sweet reunion you will never forget. There is no need to deny yourself
their love any longer.
I post this message with a prayer it will reach someone who needs it.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Kaitlyn aka PrismCollective
Please leave.
Kaitlyn
Willis
Dee xxx *extremely pissed off*
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8mcvk8$kgb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
daisy
<gogi...@my-deja.com> schreef in bericht
Pat
Daisy..
There are 1,000s of people who do have "false" memories of abuse.. Donna is
one of them.
There are 1,000s of more people who have been falsely accused of abuse.. I'm
one of them. I can think of at least 2 others in this newsgroup who have
been falsely accused. Not to the extent that Donna and her sister came to
believe.. but emotionally damaging just the same..
Donna doesn't deny that abuse happens... She knows all too well that it
does..
daisy <daisyh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8me50s$8vc8o$1...@reader3.wxs.nl...
Pat
Dee..
If one can accept that someone can live 30 years and have absolutely no
memory of abuse, don't you think it's possible that someone could develop
'false' memory of abuse .. i.e., one that wasn't true? Do you think that
recovered/repressed memories are somehow more likely to be more truthful in
their accuracy than one which has always been remembered ..and never
forgotten.
Memory is such a tricky thing..
You can have 3 people sit all night and have a conversation.. The next
morning one person will one thing.. another, something else entirely... And
no amount of 'hard' evidence... i.e., reviewing a written transcript of
events will convince someone they didn't hear what they think they did.. A
good example of just that played out right here.
Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g7ui5.8936$7F2.8...@news3.cableinet.net...
> WHAT!?!...fuck off...just fuck right off....
>
> Dee xxx *extremely pissed off*
>
> <gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
Pat
yes, she went after folks she felt she could 'help'... she wasnt right
then.. and wont be right in doing it again, if that's what she intends to
do. however, if she wants to talk about herself, other retractors, others
falsely accused.. that's different..
i'm not a believer in the rule that states.. 'when someone says so and so
abused me, so therefore it is true and you must believe that it is 100%
true.. '
i know that makes me a bad little suvivor.. but damnit i may well have been
born in the 'show-me' state instead of texas.. i want evidence a crime has
been committed before i draw and quarter someone..
azure <az...@asarian-host.org> wrote in message
news:2000080412...@asarian-host.org...
> The problem in our newsgroup, if I remember correctly, is that Donna *did*
> deny that a lot of our abuse happened. She stated in very firm and certain
> terms that some people were definitely remembering abuse that did not
> happen. Dunno if she was being contrary due to feeling backed into a
> corner, or what, but that's what I remember. Of course, this squicked a
lot
> of people, which Donna interpreted as proof that she was correct.
>
> azure
>
James_Tolson
<az...@asarian-host.org> wrote:
>
>"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:8mebos$3nuq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
>> Daisy..
>>
>> There are 1,000s of people who do have "false" memories of abuse.. Donna
>> is one of them.
>>
>> There are 1,000s of more people who have been falsely accused of abuse..
>> I'm one of them. I can think of at least 2 others in this newsgroup who
>> have been falsely accused. Not to the extent that Donna and her sister
>> came to believe.. but emotionally damaging just the same..
>>
>> Donna doesn't deny that abuse happens... She knows all too well that it
>> does..
>
>The problem in our newsgroup, if I remember correctly, is that Donna *did*
>deny that a lot of our abuse happened. She stated in very firm and certain
>terms that some people were definitely remembering abuse that did not
>happen. Dunno if she was being contrary due to feeling backed into a
>corner, or what, but that's what I remember. Of course, this squicked a lot
>of people, which Donna interpreted as proof that she was correct.
>
I must admit that things would be a heck of a lot easier if
misinterpretations didn't abound here. That's unfortunate,
but true. Sometimes it astounds me. I've *literally* seen
people saying the *same* thing misinterpret what the other
was saying as being totally opposed. It seems that all it
takes is one word which can have different meanings, one
misread phrase, and you mix that with a bit of expectation
or suspicion and some volatility and WHAMMO.... you've got
an explosion! Though not always an explosion, sometimes
those misinterpretations just simmer away and there's a slow
fire. The one thing which usually seems to be the key...
that explosion causes deafness. :o(
And it happens all the time.
>azure
Shardik
Well, hell . . . you mix in all that fucking human stuff
and you got misperception, not misinterpretation.
Shardik
> Though not always an explosion,
> sometimes
> those misinterpretations just simmer away and there's
> a slow
> fire. The one thing which usually seems to be the
> key...
> that explosion causes deafness. :o(
> And it happens all the time.
> >azure
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Willis
it...today whilst at work, I spent the day trying to work out jut *why* I
was so mad about it...this is probably not complete, and it is only my
opinion...I do not speak for anyone else...and it more than likely won't
make much sense to anyone but me, but here goes...
Firstly I *do* believe in false memory syndrome (or what ever it is
called)...
I also believe that many abusers try their damnedest to try and make their
victims believe that "it never happened"...I know mine did...I think that
this may have made my reaction to the post more intense, but my objections
to it remain...and here they are...
the tone...
since coming to this newsgroup, I have decided that IMHO the posts that
don't provoke that kind of reaction in me are the ones that are very
carefully worded...this one, to me at least seemed like a bull in a china
shop in it's approach...had the writer told of her experience, for instance
if "In my experience I found that even though I had false memories of abuse,
my parents still loved me and we reconciled" replaced "If you think you may
have false memories of abuse, take heart. As much as you may think your
accusations have ruined your relationship with your parents, they may be
waiting and praying and loving you everyday. ", I'm sure that I would have
read the rest in a calmer frame of mind...
negation...
I have been discussing in RL lately the fact that many survivors were
getting a raw deal when it came to validation...I know that I ,personally
have no one that will confirm for me that my abuse took place...but I know
it did...I have to hold on to that when my abusers get together and tell me,
"you are making it up Dee...it never happened"...this can leave survivors
feeling very confused and with the feeling that what they went through
wasn't real...so when I come onto this newsgroup and read the below message
with all it's overtones (IMHO remember) of "you poor things thinking that
something bad happened to you", I get mad...
one last thing that annoyed me was the first line ..."If you think you may
have false memories of abuse, take heart"...there is no mention of those who
know damn well that their memories are real...and the assumption that if you
*think* that you *may* have false memories that is proof that you actually
*do* is astounding...
as I said, just my opinion...I hope it clears up why I was so mad...
Dee xxx--
******but I can no longer
do the 'eggshell walk'-
there comes a time when
one has to speak out-or
self destruct
Dragon-June 2000*******
daisy
know. It wasn't my intention to hurt people! I truly am sorry.
daisy
"daisy" <daisyh...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:8me50s$8vc8o$1...@reader3.wxs.nl...
> Man, don't you have something else to do, than writing this *********
>
> <gogi...@my-deja.com> schreef in bericht
Phoenix
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8mcvk8$kgb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> If you think you may have false memories of abuse, take heart. As much
> as you may think your accusations have ruined your relationship with
> your parents, they may be waiting and praying and loving you every
> day. No matter what harsh words have come between you, love conquers
> all. Don't push your doubts aside just because you think it's too
> late. It's never too late as long as you and they are living.
> Families are reconciling every day, in different ways. Some accusers
> retract, others simply call their parents one day. If years have
> passed with no contact, the parents are usually so grateful to hear
> from their lost child, they put no conditions on the reconciliation.
> There is nothing like coming home after having been lost. It is a
> sweet reunion you will never forget. There is no need to deny yourself
> their love any longer.
>
> I post this message with a prayer it will reach someone who needs it.
But then I ask, what if their memories are real and they remember what other
do not? I have heard my own mother utter, "I don't know why he is mad at
me." Even thou an unbiased observer reading the "record" would know why my
brother is "mad" at her. Yet, she is oblivious to the cause of her own
actions. So have you bothered to ask, "What if they are right?"
Also, which side of caution do we err on? That which favors the loving
"innocent" family or that where someone alleges abuse. Tough one, but I
would err on the side of the person claiming abuse myself.
One last thought: Which is more important to you, that the lost child comes
home or the child learns to deal with their own life?
Just my humble two cents
Peace, Phoenix
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
*** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
|
* Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
* SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
* BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
* SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
* ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
* MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
* MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
* 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
|
http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
**** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Pat
Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:LsDi5.9319$7F2.9...@news3.cableinet.net...
> This morning I read this message and was obviously mad as hell about
> it...today whilst at work, I spent the day trying to work out jut *why* I
> was so mad about it...this is probably not complete, and it is only my
> opinion...I do not speak for anyone else...and it more than likely won't
> make much sense to anyone but me, but here goes...
> Firstly I *do* believe in false memory syndrome (or what ever it is
> called)...
i do too...
> I also believe that many abusers try their damnedest to try and make their
> victims believe that "it never happened"...I know mine did...I think that
mine didn't at the time, however.. i agree, that many abusers do do this..
> this may have made my reaction to the post more intense, but my objections
> to it remain...and here they are...
>
> the tone...
> since coming to this newsgroup, I have decided that IMHO the posts that
> don't provoke that kind of reaction in me are the ones that are very
> carefully worded...this one, to me at least seemed like a bull in a china
> shop in it's approach...had the writer told of her experience, for
instance
> if "In my experience I found that even though I had false memories of
abuse,
> my parents still loved me and we reconciled" replaced "If you think you
may
> have false memories of abuse, take heart. As much as you may think your
> accusations have ruined your relationship with your parents, they may be
> waiting and praying and loving you everyday. ", I'm sure that I would
have
> read the rest in a calmer frame of mind...
Your reponse is not any different than responses to Donna on her previous
visits to this newsgroup..
Personally, I have always felt Donna has a very important story to tell...
She needs to tell it about herself, like you note above.. and not be
pointing fingers at people like she does..
> negation...
> I have been discussing in RL lately the fact that many survivors were
> getting a raw deal when it came to validation...I know that I ,personally
> have no one that will confirm for me that my abuse took place...but I know
> it did...
The man who sexually abused me never denied it at the time... He did, in
later years when I spoke with him deny abusing other young girls, my sister
included. He did deny.. in a sense, that he abused me.. He told me I
wanted him to have sex with me..
On the other hand, my ex's wife started laying ground work (whether
intention or not, i don't know) that eventually led to her stating outright
she felt I had abused my sons... My sons were subjected to months of
psychiatric prodding to get them to remember the abuse she said I
perpetrated upon them... During this ordeal, my eldest son asked me what he
should tell the therapists.. he kept telling them he couldnt remember
anything.. they kept insisting that he if tried harder, he could...
Eventually, he did..
> I have to hold on to that when my abusers get together and tell me,
> "you are making it up Dee...it never happened"...this can leave survivors
> feeling very confused and with the feeling that what they went through
> wasn't real...
yes it can be crazy-making at it's best... i know that for many years, my
mom and my sister would say things that discounted what happened.. not that
things didn't happen, but from their perspective, it was a different story..
and different experiences all the way around..
> so when I come onto this newsgroup and read the below message
> with all it's overtones (IMHO remember) of "you poor things thinking that
> something bad happened to you", I get mad...
Since you say above you believe false memories are real.. a what if
question..
How do you think you would feel if one day you realized that your memories
were false and that you came to those memories thru bad therapy
models/therapists?
What if your false memories had destroyed your family's life.. say your
parent's spent their savings and mortgage the house to pay for legal
bills... or one or both your parents lost their job? or reputation within
family or community?
> one last thing that annoyed me was the first line ..."If you think you may
> have false memories of abuse, take heart"...there is no mention of those
who
> know damn well that their memories are real...and the assumption that if
you
> *think* that you *may* have false memories that is proof that you actually
> *do* is astounding...
I think the catch here is... there is no way to determine whether or not a
memory is true.. your recollection of an event will differ from someone
else's recollection of the same event...
> as I said, just my opinion...I hope it clears up why I was so mad...
it's a horrendous catch-22..
> Dee xxx--
> ******but I can no longer
> do the 'eggshell walk'-
> there comes a time when
> one has to speak out-or
> self destruct
> Dragon-June 2000*******
>
> <gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8mcvk8$kgb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > If you think you may have false memories of abuse, take heart. As much
> > as you may think your accusations have ruined your relationship with
> > your parents, they may be waiting and praying and loving you every
> > day. No matter what harsh words have come between you, love conquers
> > all. Don't push your doubts aside just because you think it's too
> > late. It's never too late as long as you and they are living.
> > Families are reconciling every day, in different ways. Some accusers
> > retract, others simply call their parents one day. If years have
> > passed with no contact, the parents are usually so grateful to hear
> > from their lost child, they put no conditions on the reconciliation.
> > There is nothing like coming home after having been lost. It is a
> > sweet reunion you will never forget. There is no need to deny yourself
> > their love any longer.
> >
> > I post this message with a prayer it will reach someone who needs it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
Pat
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398b...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
> Also, which side of caution do we err on? That which favors the loving
> "innocent" family or that where someone alleges abuse. Tough one, but I
> would err on the side of the person claiming abuse myself.
All things equal (which happens rarely, imo)? I would tend to fall back
on.. you are innocent until proven guilty...
> One last thought: Which is more important to you, that the lost child
comes
> home or the child learns to deal with their own life?
a child learning to deal with thier own life.. that's what parents are
suppose to do.. give their offspring the tools necessary to accomplish just
that..
>
> Just my humble two cents
> Peace, Phoenix
>
--
pat
One of the most striking differences between a cat and a lie is that a cat
has only nine lives. Mark Twain
Phoenix
"Colin" <nopew@for> wrote in message
news:398fdaeb...@news.mindspring.com...
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:02:53 -0400, "Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >One last thought: Which is more important to you, that the lost child
comes
> >home or the child learns to deal with their own life?
>
> >Peace, Phoenix
>
> Well there is a good point. The return of the prodigal child to the bosom
of his
> loving family is a question in and of itself. I have seen the glazed eyes
of the
> returning "wayward child," there is a desperation under the forced gaiety
of
> reconciliation, the newly layered despair of returning to old patterns.
> Colin
Not exactly my point but would be the potential outcome for the prodigal
child.
We can say for certain that regardless if the person in question recalled
memories are false or real that person is dealing with "something". I have
yet to hear of a case where a supposedly healthy "normal" functioning adult
starts recalling false memories out of the blue. Usually they are going to
some professional seeking treatment for "something". Now I will concede the
following two possibilities: "memories" can be suggested, something akin to
a post-hypnotic suggest, and memories are not a concrete thing, that is,
there is a lot of personal perception involved. Regardless, the person was
dealing with "something" before the alleged false memories came into the
picture.
So here we have this person stating your family will welcome you with open
arms and forgive you with the implication, "As long as you return to your
family." The offer of "forgiveness" seems to be conditional. My point was
which is more important the child returning to the family or the child
healing from that "something"? There is no mention of we (your family) are
here and willing to help you through that "something". All I hear in the
offer is: come home and forget this silly nonsense of your false memories
and we can return to being one happy family. To me this person is selfishly
thinking more about the family cohesion than the health and welfare of the
child in question.
But this is just my opinion
polly wog
polly wog
_ht_ <op...@asarian-host.org> wrote:
:-)azure,
:-)
:-)In article <2000080412...@asarian-host.org>,
:-)
:-) azure <az...@asarian-host.org> writes:
:-)>
:-)> "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:-)> news:8mebos$3nuq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
:-)>
:-)[...]
:-)
:-)>> Donna doesn't deny that abuse happens... She knows all too well that it
:-)>> does..
:-)>
:-)> The problem in our newsgroup, if I remember correctly, is that Donna
:-)> *did* deny that a lot of our abuse happened. She stated in very firm and
:-)> certain terms that some people were definitely remembering abuse that did
:-)> not happen. Dunno if she was being contrary due to feeling backed into a
:-)> corner, or what, but that's what I remember. Of course, this squicked a
:-)> lot of people, which Donna interpreted as proof that she was correct.
:-)
:-)If I recall correctly, it was a little more than that. She also claimed
:-)that it was wrong to even discuss some of the extreme forms of abuse,
:-)because -- according to her -- simple discussion was
:-)sufficient to place false memories in the minds of the more
:-)sensitive individuals.
:-)
:-)-- ht
:-)--
:-)And if life is just a highway -- then the soul is just a car, And objects
:-)in the rearview mirror may appear closer than they are.
:-)
:-)e-mail: op...@asarian-host.org
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)--
:-)For more information about this posting service, contact:
:-)he...@asarian-host.org -- for all info about our server.
:-)If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
:-)
:-)http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html
and the greatest of these is love
polly wog
make things up.
polly wog
rosee <ro...@asarian-host.org> wrote:
:-)Donna???
:-)
:-)You're back???
:-)
:-)HIYA kid!!
:-)
:-)Daisy,
:-)
:-)Pat is right. There are people that have had false memories of abuse. Now,
:-)I don't think that false memories are as prevalent as the FMSF folks would
:-)have people believe, but I do think it is a very real problem.
:-)
:-)There are some unscrupulous therapists out there. Just like there are
:-)unsrupulous used car dealers. The difference is if you get a rotten used
:-)car, it doesn't destroy everything in your life.
:-)
:-)Anyway, Daisy, not to worry. If this is Donna, come back to visit awhile,
:-)I'm sure that she and I will get into at least one good argument! ;-)
:-)
:-)rosee
:-)
:-)"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:-)news:8mebos$3nuq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
:-)
:-)> Daisy..
:-)>
:-)> There are 1,000s of people who do have "false" memories of abuse.. Donna
:-)> is one of them.
:-)>
:-)> There are 1,000s of more people who have been falsely accused of abuse..
:-)> I'm one of them. I can think of at least 2 others in this newsgroup who
:-)> have been falsely accused. Not to the extent that Donna and her sister
:-)> came to believe.. but emotionally damaging just the same..
:-)>
:-)> Donna doesn't deny that abuse happens... She knows all too well that it
:-)> does..
:-)>
:-)> daisy <daisyh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
:-)> news:8me50s$8vc8o$1...@reader3.wxs.nl...
:-)>
:-)> > Man, don't you have something else to do, than writing this *********
:-)> >
:-)> > <gogi...@my-deja.com> schreef in bericht
:-)> > news:8mcvk8$kgb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
:-)> >
:-)> > > If you think you may have false memories of abuse, take heart. As
:-)> > > much as you may think your accusations have ruined your relationship
:-)> > > with your parents, they may be waiting and praying and loving you
:-)> > > every day. No matter what harsh words have come between you, love
:-)> > > conquers all. Don't push your doubts aside just because you think
:-)> > > it's too late. It's never too late as long as you and they are
:-)> > > living. Families are reconciling every day, in different ways. Some
:-)> > > accusers retract, others simply call their parents one day. If years
:-)> > > have passed with no contact, the parents are usually so grateful to
:-)> > > hear from their lost child, they put no conditions on the
:-)> > > reconciliation. There is nothing like coming home after having been
:-)> > > lost. It is a sweet reunion you will never forget. There is no need
:-)> > > to deny yourself their love any longer.
:-)> > >
:-)> > > I post this message with a prayer it will reach someone who needs it.
:-)> > >
:-)> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)
:-)--
:-)For more information about this posting service, contact:
:-)he...@asarian-host.org -- for all info about our server.
:-)If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
:-)
:-)http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html
:-)
:-)
dee...@my-deja.com
In article <8mh5hb$1q5e$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com>,
This I have gathered from reading other posts...
>
> Personally, I have always felt Donna has a very important story to
tell...
> She needs to tell it about herself, like you note above.. and not be
> pointing fingers at people like she does..
I'm glad that we aggree there...
>
> > negation...
> > I have been discussing in RL lately the fact that many survivors
were
> > getting a raw deal when it came to validation...I know that
I ,personally
> > have no one that will confirm for me that my abuse took place...but
I know
> > it did...
>
> The man who sexually abused me never denied it at the time... He
did, in
> later years when I spoke with him deny abusing other young girls, my
sister
> included. He did deny.. in a sense, that he abused me.. He told me I
> wanted him to have sex with me..
the ultimate in mind fucks...that is a terrible thing to have happen
Pat...making it seem like it was your fault...putting the responsibilty
where it doesn't belong...a what if question to you...I am sure that
you didn't want him to have sex with you, but even if you did,does he
not have the capacity to say no?...
>
> On the other hand, my ex's wife started laying ground work (whether
> intention or not, i don't know) that eventually led to her stating
outright
> she felt I had abused my sons... My sons were subjected to months of
> psychiatric prodding to get them to remember the abuse she said I
> perpetrated upon them... During this ordeal, my eldest son asked me
what he
> should tell the therapists.. he kept telling them he couldnt remember
> anything.. they kept insisting that he if tried harder, he could...
> Eventually, he did..
That must have been a terrifying and dreadful experience for you all...
>
> > I have to hold on to that when my abusers get together and tell me,
> > "you are making it up Dee...it never happened"...this can leave
survivors
> > feeling very confused and with the feeling that what they went
through
> > wasn't real...
>
> yes it can be crazy-making at it's best... i know that for many
years, my
> mom and my sister would say things that discounted what happened..
not that
> things didn't happen, but from their perspective, it was a different
story..
> and different experiences all the way around..
I imagine that that would still be crazy making...
>
> > so when I come onto this newsgroup and read the below message
> > with all it's overtones (IMHO remember) of "you poor things
thinking that
> > something bad happened to you", I get mad...
>
> Since you say above you believe false memories are real.. a what if
> question..
>
> How do you think you would feel if one day you realized that your
memories
> were false and that you came to those memories thru bad therapy
> models/therapists?
>
> What if your false memories had destroyed your family's life.. say
your
> parent's spent their savings and mortgage the house to pay for legal
> bills... or one or both your parents lost their job? or reputation
within
> family or community?
Devastated I imagine...it must have been absolutely horrendous...
(((((Pat))))) if that is okay...
>
> > one last thing that annoyed me was the first line ..."If you think
you may
> > have false memories of abuse, take heart"...there is no mention of
those
> who
> > know damn well that their memories are real...and the assumption
that if
> you
> > *think* that you *may* have false memories that is proof that you
actually
> > *do* is astounding...
>
> I think the catch here is... there is no way to determine whether or
not a
> memory is true.. your recollection of an event will differ from
someone
> else's recollection of the same event...
I agree...that doesn't however make your memory of the
event "false"...and my objections to the post remain...
Dee xxx
Phoenix
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8mhaq3$3iq6$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:398b...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> > *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
>
> > Also, which side of caution do we err on? That which favors the loving
> > "innocent" family or that where someone alleges abuse. Tough one, but I
> > would err on the side of the person claiming abuse myself.
>
> All things equal (which happens rarely, imo)? I would tend to fall back
> on.. you are innocent until proven guilty...
Granted with a but... Going to the other extreme of having a "witch hunt"
mentality will only cause more destruction. Sadly, the modern justice
system is more geared to resolving the conflict at the expense of the truth.
That is, so long as there is a conviction then the case ends there. And
this attitude reflects people's generally desire to place blame and seek
resolution regardless if it is the truth or not.
I would like to point out that a common response to intense trauma,
including sexual abuse, will be to block out the memories. What the mind
cannot deal with it will not accept. Personally I woke up to an onslaught
of memories which I had only one vague distant memory to. Then there
numerous memories that have "appeared" out of no where. One day, sitting
down writing my thoughts, BANG!!!, I was thrown into a flashback. I felt my
breath dying as the hand of a demon (my father) is wrapped around my throat
strangling me to death. There were tiny signs of this event in my behavior
(hindsight is 20/20) but I had no clue that this ever happened until that
night my clothes were drenching from sweat and I desperately gasped for air.
You ever been strangled, oh, it not a pleasant experience to say the least.
This is just one memory recalled and it is tame compared to the "other"
stuff I remember.
Now if I relied on my family for verification I would think my memories were
some sort of made-up bizarre nightmare. That is, I would question if what I
remembered was real at all. You will never know how many times I do that
anyway. Now you think I get at least some validation or support? Hell, no.
The amount of denial and dismissing still astounds me to this day. This
attitude even comes from "strangers" and "professionals". The only way I
have been able to "handle it" is because I am one hell of a tenacious
son-of-bitch who is an independent thinker. Now if I depended on others for
simple validation I would have committed suicide ages ago because I would
have thought myself completely insane.
I will play devil's advocate, what if those memories were wrong? The affect
of someone actively saying that I am wrong, basically saying I am lying,
would only push me closer to the abyss of insanity. Their reputation would
remain intact and my mind would fall apart. Is a reputation worth someone's
sanity?
This issue is not something that cold forensic analysis can give unbiased
facts to. It is very subjective on both sides and we are dealing with many
inexact sciences. No simple answers to this one. So, again, I repeat,
which side should we err on? I say on side of the alleged false memories
because the price for failure is someone's sanity as oppose to someone's
reputation. With that I said, I say proceed with caution because being over
zealous means you can destroy more people than you help. Extremely well
trained, unbiased, investigators should investigate the case to find out if
the claims being made are valid and then proceed from there.
But hey, just my opinion
dee...@my-deja.com
In article <2000080515...@asarian-host.org>,
azure <az...@asarian-host.org> wrote:
>
> "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8mh5hb$1q5e$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
> > Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:LsDi5.9319$7F2.9...@news3.cableinet.net...
> >
> > > This morning I read this message and was obviously mad as hell
about
> > > it...today whilst at work, I spent the day trying to work out jut
*why*
> > > I was so mad about it...this is probably not complete, and it is
only
> > > my opinion...I do not speak for anyone else...and it more than
likely
> > > won't make much sense to anyone but me, but here goes...
> >
> > > Firstly I *do* believe in false memory syndrome (or what ever it
is
> > > called)...
> >
> > I do too...
> >
> > > I also believe that many abusers try their damnedest to try and
make
> > > their victims believe that "it never happened"...I know mine
did...I
> > > think that
> >
> > mine didn't at the time, however.. I agree, that many abusers do do
> > this..
>
> mine did. mine was an expert "reconstructionist historian." (I just
now
> woke up groggy from a night dreaming about the Very Fine House...
shiver)
> Exactamundo. To hear Donna tell her story does not raise my hackles
in the
> slightest. To know that she is emailing others and chipping away at
their
> own belief in their sanity, does. To hear her say on the ng, "Both
you and
> I know your abuse did not happen" just because she's pissed and
wanting to
> score flamewar points, really does.
I am not surprised that his would raise hackles...being still a newbie
in terms of knowing past ng history, I was unaware that this had
happened...
>
> > > negation... I have been discussing in RL lately the fact that many
> > > survivors were getting a raw deal when it came to validation...I
know
> > > that I ,personally have no one that will confirm for me that my
abuse
> > > took place...but I know it did...
>
> It is the basis of my horror of mindfucks.
>
> Truth, like light, can be described as both a particle and a wave...
it is
> both elastic and stable. A lot can be changed or altered
or "flavored" by
> one's POV and yet certain bedrock facts remain. In my family of
origin,
> peace depended on keeping the major perp quiet. Therefore, anything
that
> challenged or upset her must be silenced. The very sight of me became,
> especially in the perp's eyes, a pebble in the shoe, a reminder of
what the
> perp did. Therefore, I must be discounted, silenced. I must be
convinced
> that I am oversensitive, self-pitying, reading too much into things...
> "crazy."
I shed a tear when I read this as it could have been me I was reading
about...the way I put it was that my major perp had a gland that was
set off by the sight of me, causing a chemical reaction that caused her
to just go beserk...I think in reality it is that whole thing of not
liking to be confronted with their bad deeds...in their desparate need
not to feel guilt, they will convince themselves and try to convince
you that they have done nothing....
>
> Perhaps I will always have a vulnerable spot for attempts of others to
> convince me I'm crazy. However, I have found that truth is also like
> railroad tracks... no matter how deeply they are buried, if I dig I
can
> find them, and they are always reassuringly parallel and stable and
nailed
> together with sturdy ties. My train of thought won't derail as long
as I do
> not allow others to heap their detritus on my tracks, and when they
try, I
> can dig them free.
(((((azure))))) if that is okay with you...
>
> I can. I'm not sure others are that strong, and who knows, one banana
peel
> might be enough to derail someone else.
>
> I see Donna, at her worst, as irresponsibly heaping detritus on other
> people's tracks in a misguided attempt to "help" them. I see her, at
her
> best, as raising her voice and saying, "Hey, people, memory does not
have
> photographic accuracy! One can be hypnotized into having false
memories! It
> happened to me..." And I agree, Pat, it is an important story and
needs to
> be heard.
I agree that it needs hearing...as I said, it was the tone and the
assumption that made me mad...
Dee xxx
>
> azure
>
> --
> For more information about this posting service, contact:
> he...@asarian-host.org -- for all info about our server.
> If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
>
> http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html
Pat
Phoenix..
I have told my story here.. there are references to my childhood and
references to what happened later in life .. with my son.. it may be
confusing as the story is not told chronologically.. i hope not.. but i'll
clarify whatever.. all you need to do is ask..
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398d...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
> "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8mhaq3$3iq6$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> > Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:398b...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> > > *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
> > > Also, which side of caution do we err on? That which favors the
loving
> > > "innocent" family or that where someone alleges abuse. Tough one, but
I
> > > would err on the side of the person claiming abuse myself.
> >
> > All things equal (which happens rarely, imo)? I would tend to fall back
> > on.. you are innocent until proven guilty...
>
> Granted with a but... Going to the other extreme of having a "witch hunt"
> mentality will only cause more destruction. Sadly, the modern justice
> system is more geared to resolving the conflict at the expense of the
truth.
> That is, so long as there is a conviction then the case ends there. And
> this attitude reflects people's generally desire to place blame and seek
> resolution regardless if it is the truth or not.
Wanna hear what happened to my son? he's about your age now -- 22.. No one
listened to him either..
He was 9 when they moved in with them.. she was 7.. her mama had 3 kids..
2 she dumped somewhere (i never knew of the other 2 till we were in court)..
one of her step-dads taught (not my ex) taught her to play a fun little
game.. when she moved in with my boys, she taught them to play the game..
fast forward 2.5 years... her mama is in court for welfare fraud.. seems
mama was taking the social security/disability her other 2 kids (both are
slightly retarded) should have received but didn't.. judge sends mama to
therapy.. the therapist.. upon hearing mama's sad tale of woe, insist upon
bringing in her daughter for an eval... during the eval, she tells the
therapist about the game she plays with her step-brother...
my son finds himself there.. yes, he says.. they play the game.. he tells
the therapist, he tells the police.. he is changed with sexual battery...
doesnt matter diddly squat that game was her idea.. he's older than she is
.. she's only 9.. he just turned 12.. it's the law see.. the law doesnt
care who started what.. he was a whole 26 months older than she was and
should have known better..
> I would like to point out that a common response to intense trauma,
> including sexual abuse, will be to block out the memories.
In my opinion... that's a bunch of malarky designed by money-grabbing
psychologists to increase their earning potential..
That *has* been my experience. I never forgot anything.. I could describe
to you the room, the time of day.. and give you a step-by-step description
of what happened the 1st time and the hundreds, if not thousands of times
after that..
Now, I'll grant you the mind can do a mindfuck on you... My mom is a good
example of that.. Daddy standing right there in front of her, bitchin' about
something.. picked up a shotgun (they had been deer hunting).. and said 'i'm
gonna kill you bitch' (she remembers that..) she turned and started to walk
away.. he shot her.. in the back... nearly killed her.. she still has
buckshot lodged right next to her spinal cord..
> What the mind cannot deal with it will not accept.
I am the "memory" keeper in our family.. I grew up looking at that scar..
I've known the story for as far back as I can remember.. I remember the
fights.. she doesnt...
to this day.. she tells me he didn't mean to shoot her.. he was only joking
around.... it was just an accident...
> Personally I woke up to an onslaught
> of memories which I had only one vague distant memory to. Then there
> numerous memories that have "appeared" out of no where. One day, sitting
> down writing my thoughts, BANG!!!, I was thrown into a flashback. I felt
my
> breath dying as the hand of a demon (my father) is wrapped around my
throat
> strangling me to death. There were tiny signs of this event in my
behavior
> (hindsight is 20/20) but I had no clue that this ever happened until that
> night my clothes were drenching from sweat and I desperately gasped for
air.
> You ever been strangled, oh, it not a pleasant experience to say the
least.
> This is just one memory recalled and it is tame compared to the "other"
> stuff I remember.
Cps became involved with my children nearly 6 months before he was
charged... I knew nothing about anything until he was charged.. when i
found out what was going on.. (I had to go to juvie court and pull records
because they wouldn't tell me).. I called cps, they wouldn't return my
calls.. the therapists would only tell me my son was a danger.. that he
needed intensive therapy.. probably inpatient confinement.. none of this
set right with me... none of what they were saying came close to describing
'my son'.. none of it..
on the advice of his attorney, my husband refused me visitation with my
sons... i knew they were shopping for inpatient facilities... i knew my son
was soon going to trial .. i knew my husband had not retained an attorney to
respresent him.. i knew my husband believe the prosecution and cps.. that
this 'trial' was only a formality.. i went to court and the judge granted
me visitation.. none of this stuff happened in my house.. it happened in
~their~ house.. but the judge told me i couldnt talk with either of them..
about the charges pending against my son, about cps, about my pending motion
for a change of custody... i didnt talk to them.. but i did overplay tom
petty that weekend... 'i wont back down'...
stepmom told both my sons' therapists that she strongly suspected i abuse
them.. she told cps the same thing.. that was their starting point.. ME..
not one of her ex's.. odd thing about all this.. the judge who heard her
welfare fraud case had ordered therapy as part of his sentence.. his
remarks.. noted in her patient record stated.. he felt she had a problem
descerning the truth from fiction...
during the months before our custody hearing, my sons were subjected to what
i call psycholocial torture.. all those techniques bound to cause false
memories were used.. all to get them to remember when i abused them.. what i
did when i abused them..
during one weekend visit, my son talked to me about it.. i tried to tell him
the judge said we couldnt talk, but he did anyway... he said they kept
trying to get him to remember something (he didnt say what).. and try as
hard as he could, he just couldnt remember.. he wanted to know how to make
them stop asking him.. to this day, i regret my answer (having no idea of
where they were headed).. i told him.. tell 'em what they want to hear..
soon thereafter.. his memories started to emerge.. first it was just a dark
shadow at the door.. it took a few sessions to put actions to the figure.. a
few more to recover the actions... they managed to take a memory of
something that did happen and make it into something that didn't happen..
my son remembers it was it was replayed..
> Now if I relied on my family for verification I would think my memories
were
> some sort of made-up bizarre nightmare. That is, I would question if what
I
> remembered was real at all.
Me too.. the abuse is not denied... they weren't there in bed with
jessie.. i was.. our memories ~are~ different.. our preceptions of me as a
young girl.. my anger.. my feelings of isolation.. they are different than
those of my mom or my sister..
> You will never know how many times I do that
> anyway. Now you think I get at least some validation or support? Hell,
no.
I didn't either.. For many years, my mother believed her little girl did
the best she could to steal her husband away from her..
> The amount of denial and dismissing still astounds me to this day. This
> attitude even comes from "strangers" and "professionals". The only way I
> have been able to "handle it" is because I am one hell of a tenacious
> son-of-bitch who is an independent thinker. Now if I depended on others
for
> simple validation I would have committed suicide ages ago because I would
> have thought myself completely insane.
>
> I will play devil's advocate, what if those memories were wrong? The
affect
> of someone actively saying that I am wrong, basically saying I am lying,
> would only push me closer to the abyss of insanity. Their reputation
would
> remain intact and my mind would fall apart. Is a reputation worth
someone's
> sanity?
when it's your reputation and your sanity.. yes.. when it's your child's
reputation and sanity.. yes..
our custody hearing was to start the monday after memorial day.. we had
subpeoned my son's mental health records since neither cps or his therapist
were willing to discuss the issue with me.. late friday afternoon.. at
4:45p, 15 minutes before the court closed for the holiday weekend, the
records were delivered. my attorney just happened to be at the court house
and was able to have the records removed to the juvenille jail were we could
review the records under supervision..
it was there.. that night.. that all the pieces came to together and
everything started to make sense.. in a twisted sort of way... the clinic
err'd (in our favor) with the mental health records.. they didn't send me
just my son's.. the sent me every record they had.. his dad's, his
step-mom's, his step-sister's, his brothers..
> This issue is not something that cold forensic analysis can give unbiased
> facts to. It is very subjective on both sides and we are dealing with
many
> inexact sciences. No simple answers to this one. So, again, I repeat,
> which side should we err on?
You are correct .. It is subjective.. It is an inexact science.. and there
are no simple answers..
It was that night I found out about 'her'.. the step-mom.. She tells a
horrible tale of being tied up with a chain.. ganged raped at 13.. she
married her first husband when she was 15 or 16.. gave birth to 2 children..
both of them slightly retarded.. she divorced her first husband, leaving the
kids were him.. soon thereafter she married husband #2.. he fathered the
child she kept.. she had(has) lots of female problems and the health bills
pilled sky-high.. one night husband #2 torched the restaurant he managed,
taking all the money in the safe.. a few weeks later, distraught over what
he did, he committed suicide.. she drove him out there.. to the field where
he did the deed.. watched him as he blew his head off.. then drove away.. a
few weeks later she took off with husband #3.. a truck driving alocholic..
she left her daughter with relatives and took off on the road with him.. she
told how he would beat the shit out of her.. in front on her daughter.. it
was hubby #3 that made her steal her other kids social security checks.. (i
cant remember how long she stayed with him.. but it wasn't long after that
divorce that she met my ex) husband #4.. my ex.. life was good now.. except
for this horrible stuff my son had did to her precious little girl.. she
was so unsure of how she was going to 'mother' this child.. after all the
bad stuff he did..
her daugher had talked about her daddies.. all of them.. she didn't remember
her real daddy.. he had died when she was real little.. her other stepdaddy
was real mean and beat up her mama and her.. her new stepdaddy was real
nice.. she liked him.. she wasnt sure if she liked having brothers though..
her in-depth psych eval reported she had some learning difficulties and she
was very conflicted about what was going on with her stepbrother..
my son's psych eval was strange to say the least.. i objected to the person
who conducted the eval.. a student intern.. her observations were ok.. i
dont find anything amiss in what she noted.. he is an intelligent young
man.. very caring.. very loving.. she noted some feelings he had concerning
maternal abandonment.. (i dont find that odd either considering i couldn't
talk with him about what was surely a traumatic event in his life).. her
recommendations.. though.. were inpatient hospitalization to curb his
developing pedophilia.. this distrubed me very much.. i talked with my
psychiatrist and a very close friend of an ex-SO who is a well-known figure
in this field.. neither one said could find anything in the written
observations to support the recommendations..
in my youngest son's progress notes, i see a notation where step-mom is
telling his therapist that she suspects i abused my kids.. she tells the
therapist that my son will visit me the next weekend and that he will note a
change in my son the following week...
in court.. i listened as school counselor, therapist, cps-social worker
testified that they went on what was told to them by the parent.. my ex and
his wife.. that i was mentally ill and refused therapy.. none of them.. not
a single one.. ever talked with me or confirmed what they were told.. as
the school counselor testified.. it really wasn't necessary... none of the
'professionals' involved with my kids felt it was necessary to involve me in
their investigation nor their subsequent treatment of my children..
their attorney made a big to-do about me not wanting my son committed (for
at least a year) to a psychiatric hospital. i would not agree to his
confinement.. they needed my agreement and insurance to pull it off.. i
refused to agree until he received an independent psychiatric evaluation by
a psychiatrist who specialized with juvenile offenders.. i refused to agree
until i could speak directly with my son about what happened.. they tried
to say i was in denial about the monster that lived inside my son's head...
they tried to tell me i was in denial about all the harm my son had
inflicted upon his step-sister... they tried to make me into the bad guy
because i wouldn't label my son the offender and his step-sister the
victim.. my psychiatrist testified to my mental state.. he said that i was
anxious about my child as any parent would be.. maybe a tad more based on
past experience but not out of bounds by any means.. when i testified.. i
told the story of my abuse.. i told my life story.. the years of fights with
my family.. about the childhood stuff.. about my attempted suicide the year
before...
custody remained with his father.. not what i wanted.. but i do understand
the legal reason behind the judge's decision.. i couldn't make a case
against my husband... only against his wife.. and she was not the custodial
parent.. the judge did rule that I was a fit parent.. we delinated very
liberal visitation.. every other weekend, every mother's day.. at least once
a week in the evening.. more if i or the kids wanted to.. 1/2 of each
summer vacation.. alternating school breaks like christmas and spring
break..
the final insult.. the judge placed a gag order on me.. i was never to
talk with either of my son's about what went on inside that court room..
over the years, as the boys grew older, the story came out.. about her
other step-daddy.. and the games he taught her..
but that doesnt change the fact that my son was convicted of sexual
battery.. doesnt erase the year he spent on probation.. doesnt erase the
attempt to lock him away in a psych hospital.. doesnt give me back the job i
lost.. doesnt change the fact that i lost everything..
it doesnt give us back what we had before it all happened...
> I say on side of the alleged false memories
> because the price for failure is someone's sanity as oppose to someone's
> reputation.
Regardless of how you slice it.. there is always someone's sanity and
reputation at stake.. be it the one making the allegations or the one
accused.. it is a no win situation.. the best that can happen is to lesson
the collateral damage done to all..
> With that I said, I say proceed with caution because being over
> zealous means you can destroy more people than you help.
Yes.. i agree..
> Extremely well
> trained, unbiased, investigators should investigate the case to find out
if
> the claims being made are valid and then proceed from there.
That means.. ~investigating~.. that means asking the one making the claims
all sorts of questions.. that means not drawing a conclusion before looking
carefully at all the people invovled..
That's what I meant when I said.... very seldom is it equal..
If you look deep enough.. Ask enough questions.. Don't pre-determine
something is right and set out to prove it right...
> But hey, just my opinion
But hey... it's just my sons' lives.. it's just my life....
Phoenix
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8mjs7m$1vo4$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
<numerous section have been snipped, see thread for complete story>
> > Granted with a but... Going to the other extreme of having a "witch
hunt"
> > mentality will only cause more destruction. Sadly, the modern justice
> > system is more geared to resolving the conflict at the expense of the
truth.
> > That is, so long as there is a conviction then the case ends there. And
> > this attitude reflects people's generally desire to place blame and seek
> > resolution regardless if it is the truth or not.
Pat I want to repeat my opening remark... the "system" is more geared to
getting the conviction and the truth is usually the first casulty. That is
why the legal system is broken on a grand scale. I remember one 20/20
investigation about four regular decent guys convicted of rape and assault
based on one person remembering a birthday. There were at least 30 eye
witness placing these men in a bar away from the crime scene and the jury
believed that one person's testimony based on remembering a birthday. They
spent four years in prison. It took the investigative reporter only a day
to find a credit card receipt with one of their signatures, like they said.
And that would have been reasonable doubt. It was later found out that the
key witness remembered the wrong birthday.
Now if that could happen you expect anyone to be surprised by your story?
You were screwed by the legal system and the medical community. And false
memories plays a minor role, perhaps a pivotal role but a minor one. It is
the "corrupt" system which is at fault.
> my son finds himself there.. yes, he says.. they play the game.. he tells
> the therapist, he tells the police.. he is changed with sexual battery...
> doesnt matter diddly squat that game was her idea.. he's older than she is
> .. she's only 9.. he just turned 12.. it's the law see.. the law doesnt
> care who started what.. he was a whole 26 months older than she was and
> should have known better..
Charging a 9-11 year old (never specified when the incidents took place) and
then actively committing them based solely on testimony of a nine year old
is irresponsible, that is how the Salem Witch Trials worked.
> > I would like to point out that a common response to intense trauma,
> > including sexual abuse, will be to block out the memories.
>
> In my opinion... that's a bunch of malarky designed by money-grabbing
> psychologists to increase their earning potential..
Sorry Pat that will not negate the evidence. It is quite common, was called
"shell shock" in WWI, and every major war has had mental trauma causalities
since. Almost all major traumatic events will have people blocking out
memories to some degree. I would like to remind you are talking to someone
who recalled memories on his own without the influence of any suggestive
therapist whatsoever.
By making a blanket statement like that you are denying the experience of
many people here and that is why you hearing a gut response, "What the fuck
do you know?".
> > Personally I woke up to an onslaught
> > of memories which I had only one vague distant memory to. Then there
> > numerous memories that have "appeared" out of no where. One day,
sitting
> > down writing my thoughts, BANG!!!, I was thrown into a flashback. I
felt my
> > breath dying as the hand of a demon (my father) is wrapped around my
throat
> > strangling me to death. There were tiny signs of this event in my
behavior
> > (hindsight is 20/20) but I had no clue that this ever happened until
that
> > night my clothes were drenching from sweat and I desperately gasped for
air.
> > You ever been strangled, oh, it not a pleasant experience to say the
least.
> > This is just one memory recalled and it is tame compared to the "other"
> > stuff I remember.
Pat, ignoring it does not make it disappear. Again, I repeat the above
event occurred as I was writing in my journal. I never was under the care
of a therapist who "suggested" those memories to me. I would just like you
to accept that this does happen to people.
> the therapists would only tell me my son was a danger.. that he
> needed intensive therapy.. probably inpatient confinement..
More mistakes. The "cure" seem overly serve based on the allege pedophilia
of what a 11 year old? I bet if you investigate there is little research on
early pedophila in children. That is, I even wonder if there are diagnosis
criteria for early pedophila in the first place. So you could question if
the diagonsis was valid in the first place casting doubt on everything that
happened there after. If you could prove that you might have the whole case
overturned.
Something you should investigate with your expert in the field. What
exactly is the diagonsis criteria? What age can it be applied? Could such
a diagonsis be upheld under peer review? Basically was it valid in the
first place?
Why is that important? You ever hear of suing for incompetence?
Personally, if you have been reading my rants, just recently I was judged,
convicted, and sentenced to a three day stay in a pysche ward. And by my
best guest is because I looked at someone "funny". Now if didn't behave and
showed my true anger I would have been drugged, physically confined, and
probably commit. And then they would say, "See we were right." So I know
personally how the system can screw you.
> during the months before our custody hearing, my sons were subjected to
what
> i call psycholocial torture.. all those techniques bound to cause false
> memories were used.. all to get them to remember when i abused them.. what
i
> did when i abused them..
And I agree with you... the standard interrogation techniques, and that is
what it was an *interrogation*, should not be used in these cases. There is
huge debate about standard interrogation techniques used susecptiable adult,
let alone children, where the police basically coherse, intimidate, and
"threaten", the suspect until they give in. They get the "confession" but
at what price. Again, I repeat the "system" is geared toward getting the
conviction at the price of the truth.
> to this day, i regret my answer (having no idea of
> where they were headed).. i told him.. tell 'em what they want to hear..
And that is what many children will do, simply because they are children and
what to "please" the adults some how. Only experts in the field who know
how to tell the difference should talk, not interrogate, the children.
Should never be done by police officers in a police station or by any
"unqualified" persons. They are going to fuck it up simply because they are
inexperienced.
> soon thereafter.. his memories started to emerge.. first it was just a
dark
> shadow at the door.. it took a few sessions to put actions to the figure..
a
> few more to recover the actions... they managed to take a memory of
> something that did happen and make it into something that didn't happen..
> my son remembers it was it was replayed..
This is already a know phenomon with adults and children are very suseptible
to direction. That is why only by *experts* in the field because they are
less likely, said less likely, to direct the child.
> I didn't either.. For many years, my mother believed her little girl did
> the best she could to steal her husband away from her..
And if your mother uttered those words to me, I would know that your family
was quite dysfunction (to be polite). For she instantly tells that she has
no concept of proper parent/child boundaries.
> when it's your reputation and your sanity.. yes.. when it's your child's
> reputation and sanity.. yes..
You case is "different" than what I was describing. The girl reports an
incident, it is investigate and the false memories were used again the
person being accused, your son. I was referring to when it is an alleged
adult against either a child/adult recalling the memories.
You story is more a modern day witch hunt. They still happen you know, but
it is not "witches" people are looking for.
> our custody hearing was to start the monday after memorial day.. we had
> subpeoned my son's mental health records since neither cps or his
therapist
> were willing to discuss the issue with me.. late friday afternoon.. at
> 4:45p, 15 minutes before the court closed for the holiday weekend, the
> records were delivered. my attorney just happened to be at the court
house
> and was able to have the records removed to the juvenille jail were we
could
> review the records under supervision..
This is a classic lawyer ploy of keeping damaging evidence from the other
side.
> her daugher had talked about her daddies.. all of them.. she didn't
remember
> her real daddy.. he had died when she was real little.. her other
stepdaddy
> was real mean and beat up her mama and her.. her new stepdaddy was real
> nice.. she liked him.. she wasnt sure if she liked having brothers
though..
> her in-depth psych eval reported she had some learning difficulties and
she
> was very conflicted about what was going on with her stepbrother..
Strange that she was never put under the microscope.
> my son's psych eval was strange to say the least.. i objected to the
person
> who conducted the eval.. a student intern.. her observations were ok.. i
> dont find anything amiss in what she noted.. he is an intelligent young
> man.. very caring.. very loving.. she noted some feelings he had
concerning
> maternal abandonment.. (i dont find that odd either considering i couldn't
> talk with him about what was surely a traumatic event in his life).. her
> recommendations.. though.. were inpatient hospitalization to curb his
> developing pedophilia.
I doubt there was much evidence to support such a strong diagonsis.
> this distrubed me very much.. i talked with my
> psychiatrist and a very close friend of an ex-SO who is a well-known
figure
> in this field.. neither one said could find anything in the written
> observations to support the recommendations..
Case in point.
> their attorney made a big to-do about me not wanting my son committed (for
> at least a year) to a psychiatric hospital. i would not agree to his
> confinement.. they needed my agreement and insurance to pull it off.. i
> refused to agree until he received an independent psychiatric evaluation
by
> a psychiatrist who specialized with juvenile offenders.
I appauld you for this, you probably saved him from suicide. And in my book
this indicates a rational plead for an outsider's opinion. That is why I
say *unbias* investigators.
> but that doesnt change the fact that my son was convicted of sexual
> battery.. doesnt erase the year he spent on probation.. doesnt erase the
> attempt to lock him away in a psych hospital.. doesnt give me back the job
i
> lost.. doesnt change the fact that i lost everything..
And my opinion this is because of an over zealous, ill-trained, and
ill-equiped legal/medical system. Doesn't excuse them one bit just an
observation.
> Regardless of how you slice it.. there is always someone's sanity and
> reputation at stake.. be it the one making the allegations or the one
> accused.. it is a no win situation.. the best that can happen is to
lesson
> the collateral damage done to all..
I repeat, your case is "different" than the typical story. Because in your
case the "false memories" are from the accused and not the victim. The
typical story is the accused is claiming the victim was duped by the
therapist into creating the memories. So even though you are a victim of
"false memories" it is "different".
> That means.. ~investigating~.. that means asking the one making the claims
> all sorts of questions.. that means not drawing a conclusion before
looking
> carefully at all the people invovled..
>
> If you look deep enough.. Ask enough questions.. Don't pre-determine
> something is right and set out to prove it right...
Couldn't have said it better. I didn't comment much on your story because
one simple statement says it all, "You were screwed by the system." Dosen't
one damn bit negate what happen to you but it reflects my opinion of your
story.
I don't know how much balls you have but part of me would suggest you
investigate charging the system with inept investigating and treatment of
your son and the case. It is a straight up-hill battle, you will probably
lose, but it is an idea.
Another scarcastic comment I have is: "People do not question the will of
the medical gods for it is not our place to question but obey." Sound
overly dramatic but that is the result many times, the medical community,
especially the psychartric community has been place in a semi-deity postion.
And many psychartist, never look in the mirror and question their own
motives and act as if they are infailable. I despise that arrogance.
Society only re-enforces their belief. So when one psychartist comes along
and say patient A is suffering from such and such, many psycharists will
assume it is valid and go from there. And now who is the lay person's to
question the high priest shrink? So the other professionals just re-enforce
what was originally said.
> > But hey, just my opinion
>
> But hey... it's just my sons' lives.. it's just my life....
I didn't mean any disrespect by that comment just acknowledging what I say
is *just my opinion*, that is all.
Peace, Phoenix.
Willis
Snipped to get to...
I know...it happened, and is still happening to me...on my own...by
myself...
Dee xxx
--
******but I can no longer
do the 'eggshell walk'-
there comes a time when
one has to speak out-or
self destruct
Dragon-June 2000*******
>
Pat
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398d...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
> "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8mjs7m$1vo4$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
> <numerous section have been snipped, see thread for complete story>
same applies here.. re: snipping..
> > > Granted with a but... Going to the other extreme of having a "witch
> hunt"
> > > mentality will only cause more destruction. Sadly, the modern justice
> > > system is more geared to resolving the conflict at the expense of the
> truth.
> > > That is, so long as there is a conviction then the case ends there.
And
> > > this attitude reflects people's generally desire to place blame and
seek
> > > resolution regardless if it is the truth or not.
>
> Pat I want to repeat my opening remark... the "system" is more geared to
> getting the conviction and the truth is usually the first casulty. That
is
> why the legal system is broken on a grand scale.
i agree... it is broke.. but i'm not sure it can be fixed... it's people
that make up the legal system .. people with all their pre-determined ideas
about what is right, what is wrong.. people with their faith in this theory
or that theory..
>I remember one 20/20
> investigation about four regular decent guys convicted of rape and assault
> based on one person remembering a birthday. There were at least 30 eye
> witness placing these men in a bar away from the crime scene and the jury
> believed that one person's testimony based on remembering a birthday.
They
> spent four years in prison. It took the investigative reporter only a day
> to find a credit card receipt with one of their signatures, like they
said.
> And that would have been reasonable doubt. It was later found out that
the
> key witness remembered the wrong birthday.
>
> Now if that could happen you expect anyone to be surprised by your story?
no, i'm not surprised.. my story is mild in comparison to many horror
stories.. it's just mine..
>
> You were screwed by the legal system and the medical community. And false
> memories plays a minor role, perhaps a pivotal role but a minor one. It
is
> the "corrupt" system which is at fault.
people like you and me make up that 'system'..
> Charging a 9-11 year old (never specified when the incidents took place)
and
> then actively committing them based solely on testimony of a nine year old
> is irresponsible, that is how the Salem Witch Trials worked.
from the moment they moved into the house.. for a period of about 2.5 years.
he was 9, she 7 when it started.. he was 11, she 9 when it ended..
>
> > > I would like to point out that a common response to intense trauma,
> > > including sexual abuse, will be to block out the memories.
> >
> > In my opinion... that's a bunch of malarky designed by money-grabbing
> > psychologists to increase their earning potential..
>
> Sorry Pat that will not negate the evidence. It is quite common, was
called
> "shell shock" in WWI, and every major war has had mental trauma
causalities
> since. Almost all major traumatic events will have people blocking out
> memories to some degree. I would like to remind you are talking to
someone
> who recalled memories on his own without the influence of any suggestive
> therapist whatsoever.
i can recall a story i heard recently about someone who unrepressed memories
of being in a concentration camp during the war... only he never was..
war.. just recently i was trying to find some information about an ill-fated
convey .. PQ-17 to be precise.. My grandfather was master of the USS
Winston-Salem.. I talked with several survivors of that voyage.. war is
hell.. a hell you or i cant even begin to imagine... a hell many times worse
than being molested..
remember things.. yes.. certain things trigger memories long forgotten..
i've had it happen to me.. hell, i had memory overload after writing this
post to you this morning.. did it all by myself.. then again, not.. your
post was a catalyst for remembering... things i wrote in this post, things
i said on irc may not accurately reflect the reality of what happened.. it
only represents my recollection of events today.. it may be different that
it would have been yesterday.. i may remember them differently tomorrow...
> By making a blanket statement like that you are denying the experience of
> many people here and that is why you hearing a gut response, "What the
fuck
> do you know?".
I know lots.. BT/DT.. got the t-shirt to prove it.. You can remember (as
can I) all the things you want to remember.. it doesnt, however, necessarily
reflect upon the accuracy of the events that occurred..
>
> Pat, ignoring it does not make it disappear. Again, I repeat the above
> event occurred as I was writing in my journal. I never was under the care
> of a therapist who "suggested" those memories to me. I would just like
you
> to accept that this does happen to people.
again.. your post.. my replying to your post was a trip down memory lane.. i
told the story differently today than I have in the past... There may very
well be inconsistencies in what I said.. because today, I recalled things
differently than before..
>
> More mistakes. The "cure" seem overly serve based on the allege
pedophilia
> of what a 11 year old? I bet if you investigate there is little research
on
> early pedophila in children. That is, I even wonder if there are
diagnosis
> criteria for early pedophila in the first place. So you could question if
> the diagonsis was valid in the first place casting doubt on everything
that
> happened there after. If you could prove that you might have the whole
case
> overturned.
I have read up on it.. I have talked with professionals.. Studies do
indicate that true pedophilia develops around that age.. 10-14..
thereabouts.
> Something you should investigate with your expert in the field. What
> exactly is the diagonsis criteria? What age can it be applied? Could
such
> a diagonsis be upheld under peer review? Basically was it valid in the
> first place?
the diagnosis was never valid.. they needed to find a culprit. he was an
easy target..
> Why is that important? You ever hear of suing for incompetence?
it's not up to me to bring a law suit.. that would be up to my son.. he's
thought about it on occassion.. but doesnt really care to live through that
ordeal again.. it's his choice..
> Personally, if you have been reading my rants, just recently I was judged,
> convicted, and sentenced to a three day stay in a pysche ward. And by my
> best guest is because I looked at someone "funny". Now if didn't behave
and
> showed my true anger I would have been drugged, physically confined, and
> probably commit. And then they would say, "See we were right." So I know
> personally how the system can screw you.
I toured the facility they wanted to commit him too... And yes, those
children who didn't march around like little robots were drugged, locked
away in the quiet room until they marched to their dummer on duty.. it
would have destroyed him..
> And I agree with you... the standard interrogation techniques, and that is
> what it was an *interrogation*, should not be used in these cases. There
is
> huge debate about standard interrogation techniques used susecptiable
adult,
> let alone children, where the police basically coherse, intimidate, and
> "threaten", the suspect until they give in. They get the "confession" but
> at what price. Again, I repeat the "system" is geared toward getting the
> conviction at the price of the truth.
i'm very much aware of that...
> This is already a know phenomon with adults and children are very
suseptible
> to direction. That is why only by *experts* in the field because they are
> less likely, said less likely, to direct the child.
Who determines who the experts are? It's very easy to find an 'expert' who
will confirm your own POV.. your 'expert' may not confirm my POV..
> And if your mother uttered those words to me, I would know that your
family
> was quite dysfunction (to be polite). For she instantly tells that she
has
> no concept of proper parent/child boundaries.
my mother fought her own demons... yes, our family was quite dysfunctional..
>
> You case is "different" than what I was describing. The girl reports an
> incident, it is investigate and the false memories were used again the
> person being accused, your son. I was referring to when it is an alleged
> adult against either a child/adult recalling the memories.
false memories played a small role in what happened..
the acceptance of a claim of abuse without investigating all those
involved.. from the one making the allegation.. to the one named as the
perp.. predetermination that on person was the victim.. the other the
perp... it doesnt matter if it's an adult remember/recalling childhood
abuse... or a child/child thing..
> You story is more a modern day witch hunt. They still happen you know,
but
> it is not "witches" people are looking for.
it is.. and it happens way, way too much for comfort.. it's emeshed in that
'fucked' up legal system we have.. we.. the people.. make it easy.. we dont
question the one alledging victimization.
to call into question the past sexual life of a rape victim is a great big
no-no.. to note that that rape victim has made several allegations of rape
against several different people is a big no-no..
> This is a classic lawyer ploy of keeping damaging evidence from the other
> side.
yes, it is..
>
> Strange that she was never put under the microscope.
she was the victim.. you do not question the victim... just as i shouldn't
question your memories you recall.. it's no different...
> I doubt there was much evidence to support such a strong diagonsis.
there wasn't.... it went for insurance review 3 times.. denied 3 times.. by
the time the 3rd denial came around, my son was under the care of a
different therapist.. one he saw until he reached 18... this therapist, from
what I know.. saw the whole thing for what it was..
>
> > this distrubed me very much.. i talked with my
> > psychiatrist and a very close friend of an ex-SO who is a well-known
> figure
> > in this field.. neither one said could find anything in the written
> > observations to support the recommendations..
>
> Case in point.
ah.. but you see... this well-known figure resigned from the ethics
committee of the APA when they were haggling over investigative techniques
to use with children.. he is also on the scientific advisory board of the
FMSF..
so, he's an expert, all right.. but perhaps not one that would satisfy your
POV or needs.
> I appauld you for this, you probably saved him from suicide. And in my
book
> this indicates a rational plead for an outsider's opinion. That is why I
> say *unbias* investigators.
i can't see this son being suicidal.. not with what's happened..
> > but that doesnt change the fact that my son was convicted of sexual
> > battery.. doesnt erase the year he spent on probation.. doesnt erase the
> > attempt to lock him away in a psych hospital.. doesnt give me back the
job
> i
> > lost.. doesnt change the fact that i lost everything..
>
> And my opinion this is because of an over zealous, ill-trained, and
> ill-equiped legal/medical system. Doesn't excuse them one bit just an
> observation.
no, it doesnt..
>
> > Regardless of how you slice it.. there is always someone's sanity and
> > reputation at stake.. be it the one making the allegations or the one
> > accused.. it is a no win situation.. the best that can happen is to
> lesson
> > the collateral damage done to all..
>
> I repeat, your case is "different" than the typical story. Because in
your
> case the "false memories" are from the accused and not the victim. The
> typical story is the accused is claiming the victim was duped by the
> therapist into creating the memories. So even though you are a victim of
> "false memories" it is "different".
no, my case is not that different... the false memory thing is only a small
part of what happened..
it notion that we accept whatever a alledged victim says.. whatever a
alledged victim remembers without question.. my story and those similiar
will continue to destroy innocent people..
> > That means.. ~investigating~.. that means asking the one making the
claims
> > all sorts of questions.. that means not drawing a conclusion before
> looking
> > carefully at all the people invovled..
> >
> > If you look deep enough.. Ask enough questions.. Don't pre-determine
> > something is right and set out to prove it right...
>
> Couldn't have said it better. I didn't comment much on your story because
> one simple statement says it all, "You were screwed by the system."
Dosen't
> one damn bit negate what happen to you but it reflects my opinion of your
> story.
>
> I don't know how much balls you have but part of me would suggest you
> investigate charging the system with inept investigating and treatment of
> your son and the case. It is a straight up-hill battle, you will probably
> lose, but it is an idea.
i've thought about it.. my son has thought about it.. it's not something
either of us is prepared to do..
i've managed to work through lots of my issues regarding that case.. here in
this newsgroup.. fighting a legal battle.. i dont have the emtional stamina
to do it.. even if i had the money.. and you're right, i'd probably lose..
there's not enough meat.. not enough damage was done to warrant a lengthy
and costly civil suit.
> Another scarcastic comment I have is: "People do not question the will of
> the medical gods for it is not our place to question but obey." Sound
> overly dramatic but that is the result many times, the medical community,
> especially the psychartric community has been place in a semi-deity
postion.
> And many psychartist, never look in the mirror and question their own
> motives and act as if they are infailable. I despise that arrogance.
we agree...
> Society only re-enforces their belief. So when one psychartist comes
along
> and say patient A is suffering from such and such, many psycharists will
> assume it is valid and go from there. And now who is the lay person's to
> question the high priest shrink? So the other professionals just
re-enforce
> what was originally said.
and we agree here..
however, i think we're sitting on opposite sides of the fence..
>
> > > But hey, just my opinion
> >
> > But hey... it's just my sons' lives.. it's just my life....
>
> I didn't mean any disrespect by that comment just acknowledging what I say
> is *just my opinion*, that is all.
and i only speak my opinion... while it may rub up against your story like a
scratchy towel, it is only my opinion and does not reflect upon your
reality..
>
> Peace, Phoenix.
Pat
Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:CFhj5.11822$V_2.6...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
>
> I know...it happened, and is still happening to me...on my own...by
> myself...
>
> Dee xxx
it did to me today too.. as i was writing that post... everytime i tell the
story, something changes.. something is left out.. something else is
remembered...
it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events.. only as i
recall them..
polly wog
:-)i can recall a story i heard recently about someone who unrepressed memories
:-)of being in a concentration camp during the war... only he never was..
:-)war.. just recently i was trying to find some information about an ill-fated
:-)convey .. PQ-17 to be precise.. My grandfather was master of the USS
:-)Winston-Salem.. I talked with several survivors of that voyage.. war is
:-)hell.. a hell you or i cant even begin to imagine... a hell many times worse
:-)than being molested..
It is your opinion that war is worse than being molested. I have a
friend Sanford who was in Veitnam & who was molested. He finds being
molested a much worse traumas cause he trusted his father &
grandfather.
polly wog
polly wog
I have had some experience w/ this repressed memory thing in the
last couple of days. In my journal written when I was a child are at
least 2 accounts of sexual abuse by my father. I don't remember them.
I had no therapist getting me to write those things in a diary at age
13. I also know there is the possiblility that I am schizophrenic & I
was just hallucinating that stuff. I hope that is so.
I also have something talking about something I did wrong that I don't
recall at all & it is one of those things you would think a person
would remember.
pollywog
nopew@for (Colin) wrote:
:-)On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:02:53 -0400, "Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
:-)
:-)>One last thought: Which is more important to you, that the lost child comes
:-)>home or the child learns to deal with their own life?
:-)
:-)>Peace, Phoenix
:-)
:-)Well there is a good point. The return of the prodigal child to the bosom of his
:-)loving family is a question in and of itself. I have seen the glazed eyes of the
:-)returning "wayward child," there is a desperation under the forced gaiety of
:-)reconciliation, the newly layered despair of returning to old patterns.
:-) Colin
:-)
Pat
and what happened to the merchant fleet during WW-II and this convey was
nothing more than governmental betrayal... all in the name of war.. part of
the story is told here..
http://www.thehistorynet.com/WorldWarII/articles/1997/02972_cover.htm
like i said, i recently talked with a man who was on that voyage with my
grandfather.. he didn't know my grandfather.. but knew who he was.. pea
shooters.. that's all they had to defend themselves.. pea shooters he said..
like pissin in the wind it was.. the bombers over head.. and nothing ..
nothing to protect themselves... the fleet scattered.. grandpa skirted the
icebergs.. hiding from the u-boats.. u-255 was dogging them.. got the other
ships that headed the same direction as grandpa did.. mama brought
grandpa's log book the last time she came down.. his notations.. picking up
survivors in the north sea.. running the ship aground, probably saved them..
maybe it was just luck, who the fuck knows.. it was the voyage from hell..
there is no comparison... in my opinion.. between war and molestation.. none
whatsoever..
polly wog <wo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:398d9ad5....@news.mindspring.com...
>
> :-)i can recall a story i heard recently about someone who unrepressed
memories
> :-)of being in a concentration camp during the war... only he never was..
> :-)war.. just recently i was trying to find some information about an
ill-fated
> :-)convey .. PQ-17 to be precise.. My grandfather was master of the USS
> :-)Winston-Salem.. I talked with several survivors of that voyage.. war
is
> :-)hell.. a hell you or i cant even begin to imagine... a hell many times
worse
> :-)than being molested..
> It is your opinion that war is worse than being molested. I have a
> friend Sanford who was in Veitnam & who was molested. He finds being
> molested a much worse traumas cause he trusted his father &
> grandfather.
>
>
> polly wog
>
>
>
>
>
Tide Rider
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:8mebos$3nuq$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Daisy..
>
> There are 1,000s of people who do have "false" memories of abuse.. Donna is
> one of them.
Possible. It's also possible that a large proportion of these people with
"false" memories are in denial. It is certainly true that there are a great
number of people who would benefit from abuse memories not being believed.
> There are 1,000s of more people who have been falsely accused of abuse.. I'm
> one of them. I can think of at least 2 others in this newsgroup who have
> been falsely accused. Not to the extent that Donna and her sister came to
> believe.. but emotionally damaging just the same..
False accusations certainly occur. So do valid accusations that are denied
by the abusers. How often abuse accusations are false are speculative.
> Donna doesn't deny that abuse happens... She knows all too well that it
> does..
Anyone who is truly not guilty of abuse they are accused of, I feel sorry for,
and would support. And in conversing with a person over time, I may form my
own opinion as to how credible their claims are. I usually keep such opinions
to myself. As much as possible, I give the benefit of the doubt, either to
a survivor's claims or the claims of someone saying they are falsely accused.
I'm fairly generous with support, but not so giving of deep trust. I just don't
know most people well enough to offer my throat.
Phoenix
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8mkj3v$244e$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
> there is no comparison... in my opinion.. between war and molestation..
none
> whatsoever..
Does it matter how exactly how you got into hell to know that were/are in
hell?
Peace, Phoenix
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
Pat
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398d...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> Does it matter how exactly how you got into hell to know that were/are in
> hell?
>
> Peace, Phoenix
>
i'm not living in hell...
Willis
Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8mke4q$1a2c$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:CFhj5.11822$V_2.6...@news1.cableinet.net...
> >
> >
> > I know...it happened, and is still happening to me...on my own...by
> > myself...
> >
> > Dee xxx
>
>
> it did to me today too.. as i was writing that post... everytime i tell
the
> story, something changes.. something is left out.. something else is
> remembered...
>
I'm a tad confused...so False Memories are implanted by unethical
therapists, this I understand...but what about the spontaneous flashbacks
that happen that are not implanted by a therapist? are they false or not?
what I was referring to was the fact that the flashbacks I had which could
*not* have been *put there*...I think that because I am further along in my
recovery, my protecter part of me thinks I am ready to face these things one
by one, deal with them and then put them away...
> it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events.. only as i
> recall them..
>
I think Pat, that we are talking about two different things...we started off
talking about events which did not happen...the fact that remembered events
take on a different shape due to time or perception doesn't mean that they
didn't happen...
Dee xxx
>
>
>
Phoenix
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Jptj5.12611$V_2.7...@news1.cableinet.net...
> Hi Pat...
>
> > it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events.. only as
i
> > recall them..
> >
> I think Pat, that we are talking about two different things...we started
off
> talking about events which did not happen...the fact that remembered
events
> take on a different shape due to time or perception doesn't mean that they
> didn't happen...
If I may be so bold, there has been an implication that flashbacks could be
false due to personal perception.
The two (three actually) different things are being discussed:
1) False memories "planted" by a therapist for various reasons which is a
kin to hyponosis and the power of suggestion. So receptive and powerful
that the patient starts to believe accept such suggestions as reality. The
element of human nature is why double-blind research is more creditable,
because with knowing it the reasearch can influence the results. I believe
that is what happens with "false memories".
2) Amnesia in various degrees are the mind's way of dealing with intense
trauma, childhood sexual abuse only be one of many forms of trauma. One
thing I never mentioned but most flashbacks are not just recalling memories
but a "full" body experience. It is common to remember intense emotional
and physical body sensations when recalling trauma. Personally, I know how
it feels to be raped as a child - it bloody torture. An important
distinction when talking about recalling trauma in general, it the
psycho-physical (mental/physical) response during recall. Rarely is it,"Oh
yea, so-so rape me, what's for dinner". Many times you can't even speak
because the pain is so intense.
3) Which I have included to point out the confusion. When both "false
memories" and "recalled memories" quasi-merge either in someone's therapy or
during accusations. So what happens is they are blurred together and the
"false memories" lead to doubt and creditable issues. And I believe it is
the happening here. That distinction has been blurred.
But, hey what do I know?
Peace, Phoenix
Pat
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398ea3b2$1...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
>
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Jptj5.12611$V_2.7...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > Hi Pat...
> >
> > > it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events.. only
as
> i
> > > recall them..
> > >
> > I think Pat, that we are talking about two different things...we started
> off
> > talking about events which did not happen...the fact that remembered
> events
> > take on a different shape due to time or perception doesn't mean that
they
> > didn't happen...
>
> If I may be so bold, there has been an implication that flashbacks could
be
> false due to personal perception.
or incorporate other experiences you've had in life.. other experiences at a
different time and place involving different people.. or could include
things you've read in books, other stories you've heard, things you seen in
movies, influences from people groups such as this one..
I cant recall the names of the people involved, but it is a well-known rape
conviction that was overturned by DNA evidence. I want to say the man's
name was Cotton, but i'm not sure.. The woman was raped.. she picked the man
out of a photo lineup and again in a true line up.. The accused always said
he was innocent.. He was convicted and sent to prison. In prison, he met up
with the man who did rape this woman.. and eventually was released.. I've
watched several interviews with this woman.. It's really sad.. She knows the
man she sent to prison is innocent.. She knows this.. But in her mind.. the
man she sees raping her is the one who didn't..
> The two (three actually) different things are being discussed:
>
> 1) False memories "planted" by a therapist for various reasons which is a
> kin to hyponosis and the power of suggestion. So receptive and powerful
> that the patient starts to believe accept such suggestions as reality.
important, imo, is that it doesnt take a therapist to plant a false memory..
it can be peers, something you read.. something you've seen.. everything
you've experienced at one time or another can incorporated and become part
of a memory..
> The
> element of human nature is why double-blind research is more creditable,
> because with knowing it the reasearch can influence the results. I
believe
> that is what happens with "false memories".
both the survivor community and the professional community are divided into
basically two camps.. those who believe recalled memories are accurate and
reflect actual events and those who believe recalled memories can be
inaccurate..
double-blind research is not possible.. you could not subject a control
group to the degree of trauma one assumes is necessary in order to 'repress'
a memory..
Loftus and company (the other side) has done numerous studies demonstrating
how easy it is to plant an inaccurate memory of events.. There are ppl on
the other side which set out to prove recalled memories are accurate..
>
> 2) Amnesia in various degrees are the mind's way of dealing with intense
> trauma, childhood sexual abuse only be one of many forms of trauma. One
> thing I never mentioned but most flashbacks are not just recalling
memories
> but a "full" body experience. It is common to remember intense emotional
> and physical body sensations when recalling trauma. Personally, I know
how
> it feels to be raped as a child - it bloody torture. An important
> distinction when talking about recalling trauma in general, it the
> psycho-physical (mental/physical) response during recall. Rarely is
it,"Oh
> yea, so-so rape me, what's for dinner". Many times you can't even speak
> because the pain is so intense.
Phoenix.. it sounds to me that you have always remembered what happened to
you.. I do know what you mean about recalling the abuse... Yes, I can feel
anxious, I can feel scared, confused.. I remember my body responding the to
sexual stimulus.. A normal reaction.. but one that sometimes would bring
back feelings of guilt and shame when engaging in consentual sexual
activity..
>
> 3) Which I have included to point out the confusion. When both "false
> memories" and "recalled memories" quasi-merge either in someone's therapy
or
> during accusations. So what happens is they are blurred together and the
> "false memories" lead to doubt and creditable issues. And I believe it is
> the happening here. That distinction has been blurred.
false memories.. of any kind, including those of a sexual abuse nature.. can
occur anywhere.. therapy or a therapist is not necessary for such a thing to
occur..
all memory is falliable.. every story you tell.. everything you recall
something that happened previously, you are recalling a memory..
Phoenix
<snipping again, follow thread >
> > The two (three actually) different things are being discussed:
> >
> > 1) False memories "planted" by a therapist for various reasons which is
a
> > kin to hyponosis and the power of suggestion. So receptive and powerful
> > that the patient starts to believe accept such suggestions as reality.
>
> important, imo, is that it doesnt take a therapist to plant a false
memory..
> it can be peers, something you read.. something you've seen.. everything
> you've experienced at one time or another can incorporated and become part
> of a memory.
I once had a very lucid dream and was an "eye-witness" to what you are
talking about. The hotel in the dream came from a brief glance at an ad
earlier that day. I was conscious as the dream was assembled out of pieces
of thought. Very bizarre experience. But I don't believe flashbacks can be
classified as such because, usually there is an intense emotional and
physical element to it. That is the distinction I look for.
> > The
> > element of human nature is why double-blind research is more creditable,
> > because with knowing it the reasearch can influence the results. I
believe
> > that is what happens with "false memories".
Actually that was a generally example of how easy it is to influence others.
> both the survivor community and the professional community are divided
into
> basically two camps.. those who believe recalled memories are accurate and
> reflect actual events and those who believe recalled memories can be
> inaccurate..
Do understand that I never said that recalled memories are 100% accurate
because the same filtering process that creating the blocking is still in
affect. Recalling memories not a simple thing. I think this is what we are
butting heads on - the black and white issue if the memories are true or
false. Not that easy.
> double-blind research is not possible.. you could not subject a control
> group to the degree of trauma one assumes is necessary in order to
'repress'
> a memory..
Didn't mean to imply such research, the example was more a general
observation.
> > 2) Amnesia in various degrees are the mind's way of dealing with intense
> > trauma, childhood sexual abuse only be one of many forms of trauma. One
> > thing I never mentioned but most flashbacks are not just recalling
memories
> > but a "full" body experience. It is common to remember intense
emotional
> > and physical body sensations when recalling trauma. Personally, I know
how
> > it feels to be raped as a child - it bloody torture. An important
> > distinction when talking about recalling trauma in general, it the
> > psycho-physical (mental/physical) response during recall. Rarely is
it,"Oh
> > yea, so-so rape me, what's for dinner". Many times you can't even speak
> > because the pain is so intense.
>
> Phoenix.. it sounds to me that you have always remembered what happened to
you.
Absolutely *not*!... about five years ago I was under extreme emotional
stress and the flood gates opened. I felt my ass ripping apart and my
spirit tearing in pieces. Cried for hours on end. The pain was so intense
I dropped to the floor numerious times in agony, even past out a few times.
The assualt brought me to the point of suicide, which failed.
Before that it was a vague single thought I might of been abused.
There was one time I just started shaking from the "cold" (emotional
coldness) and it literally came out of no where. Everything was okay then I
started to feel this strange coldness. The sensation kept building.
Eventually the person I was with had 4 blankets on me, two of them wool and
I just kept shaking like I had a high fever. My health was fine, diet okay,
physical environment comfortable. The moment I started recalling memories
from long ago these physical sensation disappeared.
That is a description of a typical flashback.
> I do know what you mean about recalling the abuse... Yes, I can feel
> anxious, I can feel scared, confused.. I remember my body responding the
to
> sexual stimulus.. A normal reaction..
Not normal for me... in my case it had nothing to do with a sexual
experience. I was recalling absolute terror.
Physical responses are "normal" for flashbacks but not "false memories"... I
cannot see anyway you can "plant" or suggest such a dramatic reaction into
someone's memory. Also there are certain automatic responses few people
have any conscious control over... like the fight or flight response,
excellerated respiration, sweating, pupil dialation, vocal sounds, and so
on. This is a very important distinguishing factor and is the key thing I
look for.
> but one that sometimes would bring
> back feelings of guilt and shame when engaging in consentual sexual
activity..
The sexual activity was the catayst for the recalled memories. Something
said, felt, heard, or done during the activity made the connection to the
memory and it awaken into the present. The nature of flashbacks is you
experience the traumatic event from the past in the present. *This is the
distinction*: there is a physical and emotional element to the recalling of
traumatic events.
> false memories.. of any kind, including those of a sexual abuse nature..
can
> occur anywhere.. therapy or a therapist is not necessary for such a thing
to occur..
Granted.
> all memory is falliable.. every story you tell.. everything you recall
> something that happened previously, you are recalling a memory..
You have created what is called circular logic. All memory is falliable
therefore any recalled memory is falliable. You are making the observation
that because memory is fallablity and basing the premise that all recalled
memories are falliable. Granted, it is a possiblity which should be taken
into consideration.
But it is wrong to state that all memory is falliable therefore any recalled
all memories ARE falliable. Because if that was true then you have just
basically said no one knows what the "truth" is because their memories are
suspect (falliable).
I would like to point out I never claimed recalled memories are 100%
absolutely accurate. Ask anyone who has a flashback and most are not so
fast to say that their memories are the *whole* truth and nothing but the
*truth*. Nor do I disagree with what is called "false memories".
I want to make this point very clear... when recalling intense trauma that
happened there are usually three kinds of memory being recalled: the mental
image, the emotional state, and the physical sensations. "False memories"
are usually just the mental image. That is how I distinguish the two.
There are TWO phenomena we are talking about - recalled memories and false
memories. It is irresponsible to argue that there is only one.
And that is my opinion and I am stickin to it. :)
Peace, Phoenix
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
banshee
>
> Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote...
>
> > watched several interviews with this woman.. It's really sad.. She knows
> > the man she sent to prison is innocent.. She knows this.. But in her
> > mind.. the man she sees raping her is the one who didn't..
>
> tour, ie we were rehearsing practically non-stop. some sixty-five people
> cramped up together way too long, nerves frayed, lot of tension. in the
> midst of this one of the other violin players, a woman, began to spread the
> story that I was making obscene phone calls to her in the middle of the
> night.
>
> when the story reached me I was unbelievably humiliated. this was someone I
> hardly ever talked to and I didn't even know her phone number. why would
> she make up something like this? what was it about me that would make her
> think I would do this? or, if someone was impersonating me on the phone,
> why would *he* want to do this to me? what was it about me? how many people
> believed her? did my friends believe her? of course there was no way to
> know for sure, even with the ones who said they didn't. and some of them
> didn't come right out and say they didn't.
>
> I felt like a pariah. it became hard to walk into the rehearsal hall. when
> someone looked at me I saw mockery and accusation. when someone didn't look
> at me, I saw disdain. I began to skip rehearsal, and skipped so many that I
> risked being dropped from the tour. the orchestra manager called to tell
> me. this was almost as bad. I really needed the money, but also, I was a
> diligent player and pulling my weight was a point of self-esteem. it really
> hurt to be singled out as someone who didn't.
>
> I decided the only thing to do was to go back and confront her. I went back
> to rehearsal, and during a break, I walked up to her near a coffee machine
> with a dozen or so people standing around, and I said "why are you telling
> people that you're getting obscene phone calls from me? how dare you spread
> stories like this?" people turned to look. I realized I was too emotional.
> I thought it made it look like there was something between us. if not
> exactly what she said it was, well, then still *something*. I began to
> stutter. "y-y-you have n-no right..."
>
> she turned beet-red and began to cry. one of her friends came over and said
> "what's the hell's the matter with you? is it never enough for you? huh? is
> it never enough?" and she hugged her friend and led her away.
>
> I wanted to follow them and say more, but I was afraid my voice would fail
> me and I didn't.
>
> one of my friends came over and said "let it go. life goes on."
>
> but I was so ashamed.
>
> cal
manoman.
i don't know why but reading this caused me to feel so much
sorrow.
one day i was sitting in grade 8 class and started feeling
little drops of something on my face. the teacher fixed his
gaze on me and told me to go to the bathroom and "wash up
immediately". So i went and to my absolute mortified horror
i saw my face staring back at me covered in ink. Someone
was using their fountain pen to spray me with ink.
Like you i felt so ashamed.
:( i still think about it sometimes.
jean
Dragon
>
>
> Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:LsDi5.9319$7F2.9...@news3.cableinet.net...
{clip}
> > so when I come onto this newsgroup and read the below message
> > with all it's overtones (IMHO remember) of "you poor things thinking
that
> > something bad happened to you", I get mad...
>
> Since you say above you believe false memories are real.. a what if
> question..
>
> How do you think you would feel if one day you realized that your memories
> were false and that you came to those memories thru bad therapy
> models/therapists?
>
> What if your false memories had destroyed your family's life.. say your
> parent's spent their savings and mortgage the house to pay for legal
> bills... or one or both your parents lost their job? or reputation
within
> family or community?
I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd be suing me a therapist. As
publically as possible.
But I *wouldn't* be running around trying to convince anybody else they had
false memories, like Donna is doing. That isn't my judgement to make.
Dragon
Dragon
Shardik <shardik...@mail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0109-070.remarq.com...
> Well, hell . . . you mix in all that fucking human stuff
> and you got misperception, not misinterpretation.
> Shardik
Actually, I'd say you get both, humans being what they are.
Dragon
James_Tolson
to more than 50 word posts. It will save you the bother of
getting upset with me and the need to slam me for bothering
you so much. I think that's the best way to handle it,
don't you? Thanks.
When I was 16, going to school and working a full time job,
something rather odd happened "to" me.
This one job was as a dishwasher in a cafeteria at a large
company. And yes, I would take *any* job... as long as
they paid. Years later, I would return to the same company
as the primary support tech on their computer system.
Anyway, it got pretty hectic during the feeding frenzy. You
would have to empty and load the dishes as fast as the
dishwasher could take them, then run back to the back of the
monstrous thing to unload the dishes before it would stop.
Back and forth till you caught up (which was long after
everyone else was finished), all the while checking the
supplies of clean glasses, dishes, saucers, silverware and
stuff out front and replenishing them as necessary. This
necessitated checking the status as you walked by the door,
and it was also good to keep an eye on the line to see how
thick the line of people were coming through... when it
thinned, you knew you were over the worst part and the end
was in sight.
This new lady, I guess in her late twenties or thirties, I'm
not sure of her age except that she was really, really old
(remember I was 16), had come to work there about a week or
two prior to this time. One night, as I'm furiously trying
to keep up, I trot past the door to an unusual sight. Here
she is lying on the floor with a few people kneeling around
her, and everyone else looking to see what had happened,
customers and staff alike. She has passed out. I'm asking
what happened later and the reaction was really strange.
For some odd reason people were most upset with me, visibly
so... like some wouldn't even speak to me and showed
disgust in their face and manner... and in the brief time I
worked there afterwards, a few let me know exactly what they
thought of "my behavior" verbally. It seems I had been
making obscene gestures at this lady, looking at her
lustfully, and just generally indicating with my eyes that I
wanted to do some pretty disgusting things to her. The
thing is though, I had never really noticed this lady. She
was just there, part of everybody else. Fortunately for me,
if only as a gauge of what was real and what was not,
several people reassured me she was totally bonkers, which
was apparently exactly what they thought of her. Needless
to say, I was not terribly impressed either. She never
returned after that incident as she apparently quit on the
spot afterwards saying she couldn't work there because of
*me*!
I believe this was my first encounter with a survivor (no
offense intended guys), and that was only the first...
there were more and with much greater impact. :o(
Unbeknownst to me... I married one, against my Father's
firm objection and counseling, and against my Mothers rather
intense objection. In my mother's case, I really thought it
was because she loved my former girl friend so much, not
that her sixth sense told her there was something very
amiss. My Father just thought I was making a big mistake
for other reasons. As it turned out and as I found out,
they were both absolutely spot on. Amazing that they could
see what I was totally blind to. Amazing that I could be so
headstrong as to know so much better while not having a
clue. Emotion is truly a most effective blinder to such a
huge amount and range of information. Emotion not only
blinds, but can even create things where they are not.
Potent stuff, huh? Emotion, I mean.
I would tell you more, but... I'll get severly slammed for
the length of this as it is. Such is life.
On Mon, 7 Aug 2000 14:38:38 -0400, Cal
<c...@asarian-host.org> wrote:
>Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote...
>
>> watched several interviews with this woman.. It's really sad.. She knows
>> the man she sent to prison is innocent.. She knows this.. But in her
>> mind.. the man she sees raping her is the one who didn't..
>
Gaye D
Have posted my hornets nest on Borgian Abuse to see if anyone wants to come
help stir it up, I thought I'd drop back and see if I could spot any more
related stuff, and I saw this thread.
The only conclusion I have is that the only thing that heals is as close to
the truth as you can get, whatever the truth is.
However, taking pot shots, on permanent record, at such divas of the "false
memory" abuse industry as Dean Tong is a part of my way of life....
But I have my own experience around "false memory".
Now as a child I was physically abused, and mentally and emotionally abused
like the longest run of "Gaslight" you ever saw. It was systematic, it had
deliberate strategy too, I can trace it 5 generations and it probably killed
my Grandmother.
So you could say I am a mite unsure of myself at times as a result.
Anyway, a few years ago I finally admitted to myself that I was roadkill and
picked up the phone to call around and find out where you go for help if you
DON'T have a substance abuse problem (this is Ireland, resources can be a
little basic). I tried asking the Samaritans, they suggested I tried Rape
Crisis for information on counselling.
I hadn't got a clue how to articulate the problem. I suppose I grew up
believing that if you didn't heal miraculously the moment the abuse stopped
there was something congenitally wrong with you. So I explained a few things
about me, including the fact that I used to be a hooker (I felt this had
caused a lot of trauma in itself), the woman on the other end of the line,
INFORMED me that I was sexually abused as a child, and offered to arrange
free counselling.
Now I like to be agreeable, but I distinctly remembered that I was NOT
overtly sexually abused during my childhood, in any recognisable way. (There
was a weird tangent but it was NOT what she meant).
Also, in my capacity as lobbyist on Prostitution issues I was aware of a
Political Agenda within this particular organisation to attribute ALL
prostitution to child sexual abuse and effectively hijack the entire issue
on invalid premise (as though NEED FOR MONEY, was nothing to do with it at
all!!).
So I gently pointed out that she was mistaken.
She informed me I was "in denial"??????
Now this went on for about 30 minutes, with this woman telling me I was in
denial, and me wondering which form of the word "No" she would recognise as
a statement of fact!!
It's almost funny now, but at the time I felt as if I had been put through a
wringer, and the whole thing played on my mind for a very long time.
This woman was treating me as though I was "naughty" for refusing to admit
to something that never happened.
That, in itself, was a form of abuse too.
Gaye D
Borgian Abuse
http://www.geocities.com/borgianabuse
My Homepage:
http://mechanima.cjb.net/
Yahoo Club:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/themestreamsocialissues
Phoenix
"Baba Yaga" <baba...@beeb.net> wrote in message
news:8mo4mv$ba5$4...@news.beeb.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
< snip, see thread for story>
Just an observation.
Your story reminds me of a Star Trek episode, no not a trekkie, just like
the show. Well the character Captain Picard is taking prisoner and the
whole show is him being continually interrogated for information. One of
the "exercises" was to get him to doubt his own thoughts. There were (think
I have the count right) four lights and all he had to do was say there five
lights. He finally is released and he stands up to the interrogator and
with an "in your face" attitude says "There are four lights!". The show
ends with him partially breaking down with the ship's counsellor after
saying, "At one time I saw five lights."
Reality, or better said, the perception of reality, is such a subjective
thing and when the majority unknowning force their version of reality onto
the individual (one person) they are unaware that they have taken a piece of
the individual away. It is more damaging when the majority is the
professional community. Their perception of reality remains intact but at
what price?
Just an observation and your story reminds me of that.
> Didn't do my sanity or my battered body a lot of good. Whichever side you
> err seems pretty parlous, to me. (Even aside from the belief expressed in
> my sig.)
Granted. It is a classic case of choosing the lesser of two evils.
Would not life be easier if the choices we make were black and white? But
they are not.
Phoenix
"James_Tolson" <Ja...@Remove-This.nbc.ii.net> wrote in message
news:smkuoscins8028ebq...@4ax.com...
> First of all, could you please hit "next" now if you object
> to more than 50 word posts. It will save you the bother of
> getting upset with me and the need to slam me for bothering
> you so much. I think that's the best way to handle it,
> don't you? Thanks.
Geez then I must be really pissing a lot of people because at least most of
my post exceed 50 words. :)
<snip see thread for story> Hey, I am learning.
At one place I work standard procedure was to remove the manager A.S.A.P.
without every telling the staff. Even if they are simply being reassigned.
The staff went ballistic. I personally cause a stink that I got the head of
personal for the whole company to meet with me.
And I remember these words. "Perception is reality." I was outraged at his
flippant attitude, but as time goes on that is more or less the truth.
People's perceptions of what they think is real, regardless if the "facts"
back it up are their reality.
And your story is an excellant example of that.
> I would tell you more, but... I'll get severly slammed for
> the length of this as it is. Such is life.
Not a friendly attitude to get people to open up and talk is it?
Peace, Phoenix
**** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
Pat
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8n7gqm$ujt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Unfortunately, the concept of denial when applied to memories has
> caused many problems. People may experience a false memory, have many
> doubts, but those doubts are squelched by the therapist (or others) who
not always Donna.. in your case, yes.. your therapist did this to you and
that's unfortunate.. but not all therapists are the same..
> tell the person they are in denial if they doubt it. Further, they are
> told their denial is natural and proves the memory is real. The person
> experiencing this painful memory wants the pain to go away, so wants to
> come out of "denial," so accepts the memory as real in an attempt to
> get better.
My therapist never did anything like this.. none of them actually..
Donna.. It's not so black and white.. You've been around the net long enough
to know that painting it as either black or white is gonna do nothing but
start the flames a'burning..
> Donna
>
> In article <8mkqt2$l7o$1...@news.kersur.net>,
> "Tide Rider" <tideri...@kersur.net> wrote:
> >
> > "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
karmagrrl
> First priority is for the person to function effectively in their
> life. If that is accomplished and they experience pain because of
> their estrangement from their family, they may wish to heal that rift
> as well. I was only pointing out that IF they wish to reconcile, it's
> usually not hopeless. Some people have let years go by because they
> thought their family would reject them because of the accusations, when
> that couldn't have been farther from the truth.
hi Donna,
when i first saw you were back i winced, but i've been reading thru your
stuff, and i appreciate you discussing this issue and not being so forceful
like last time. i mean it, i really appreciate it.
i've still been trying to maintain a healthy skepticism, all this time. i
realize my memories aren't going to be completely accurate, but i also
realize i was abused in general. i've actually "tested" my memories ... we
recently moved to a much bigger place, and there were some boxes that i had
gotten from my dad and mom a long time ago, containing childhood stuff,
that for years i had said i didn't want to open, i just felt an aversion to
them for no known reason at the time. but i couldn't remember anything at
all, not one memory, before 1997 about the contents of the boxes. before we
opened them, i described to my husband what was in them, as i remembered,
we even wrote some things down, over the last couple of years. then we
opened the boxes recently. WOW. my memory was about 98% accurate, and the
errors were in details such as the color of a sofa in a photo, etc. so,
that was a good learning experience. so IMO it pays to be one's own worst
skeptic :)
that being said ... i agree about the "function effectively" part. it's
coming up on 3 years since i confronted my dad about the abuse, and i have
had no contact with him, or any other family member, since then. in fact we
moved far away when we had the chance (my husband got a job transfer)
because he was harassing me. since getting away from my dad ... my life has
blossomed in so many incredible ways. it's easy to look back and see how
there was a continuing pattern of verbal and emotional abuse and
manipulation that had gone on right until i was 31 years old, that was
holding me back. i used to have a pattern of achieving "just enough" to
make my dad look like a good parent, yet not enough to be able to claim
anything as my own achievement. after i estranged myself from the family, i
started achieving things on my own ... it was scary as hell, at first, i
kept having the feeling my dad would swoop in and take all the credit ...
then i've been able to just keep doing the work i love, and love doing it.
this spring, some of my work got a big award, my first achievement on my
own that my dad didn't ruin. since then it's been a flood of good stuff :)
the estrangement from my family has been such an incredibly healthy thing,
that i have realized: "family" doesn't always mean a healthy, nurturing
environment . for some, getting away from a dysfunctional family is the key
to staying alive, literally.
last i heard from a mutual family friend, my dad has been mailing himself
gifts and cards from "me" for the last 2 years, and letting people know
that we have "reconciled." (it's easy to do, business-people order that
kind of stuff from catalog services all the time, with most companies it
gets sent in plain packaging on the outside so it does look like a personal
gift/mail. he used to do it even 5 years ago, if he wanted to look really
good in front of a prospective client, he'd have all sorts of gift baskets
sent "thanking" him, that were supposedly from "other clients" ... it was
all a lie, but common in the business world, especially sales.) so ... it
appears we don't need to reconcile, we already have ;) that freaked me out
at first, but i've gotten used to the idea.
so anyway. as to all this FMS stuff. i think that memories are reliable to
a certain extent, but i also think that any therapist that helps "induce"
memories isn't doing the right thing for their client. to date, i have
still not allowed any therapist to get into memories with me, we only talk
about the "now" and how can i do well today, etc. so i would have to say
that not all people in therapy are "led" to remember things by their
therapist, although i'm sure it does happen. no one can know for sure, in
the end.
peace,
susan
gogi...@my-deja.com
My false meomories included "body memories" which had very strong
physical sensations, including a feeling of terror like I've never felt
before. This is one reason I was convinced they represented real
memories. I reasoned that these sensations had to come from memory
because they were so strong. I have since found out that these
sensations cannot be trusted to represent real memories and that they
usually occur in a trance state (i.e., a very suggestive state). And I
failed to consider the power of the imagination.
Donna
In article <398ea3b2$1...@post.newsfeeds.com>,
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Jptj5.12611$V_2.7...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > Hi Pat...
> >
> > > it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events..
only as
> i
> > > recall them..
> > >
> > I think Pat, that we are talking about two different things...we
started
> off
> > talking about events which did not happen...the fact that remembered
> events
> > take on a different shape due to time or perception doesn't mean
that they
> > didn't happen...
>
> If I may be so bold, there has been an implication that flashbacks
could be
> false due to personal perception.
>
> The two (three actually) different things are being discussed:
>
> 1) False memories "planted" by a therapist for various reasons which
is a
> kin to hyponosis and the power of suggestion. So receptive and
powerful
> that the patient starts to believe accept such suggestions as
reality. The
> element of human nature is why double-blind research is more
creditable,
> because with knowing it the reasearch can influence the results. I
believe
> that is what happens with "false memories".
>
> 2) Amnesia in various degrees are the mind's way of dealing with
intense
> trauma, childhood sexual abuse only be one of many forms of trauma.
One
> thing I never mentioned but most flashbacks are not just recalling
memories
> but a "full" body experience. It is common to remember intense
emotional
> and physical body sensations when recalling trauma. Personally, I
know how
> it feels to be raped as a child - it bloody torture. An important
> distinction when talking about recalling trauma in general, it the
> psycho-physical (mental/physical) response during recall. Rarely is
it,"Oh
> yea, so-so rape me, what's for dinner". Many times you can't even
speak
> because the pain is so intense.
>
> 3) Which I have included to point out the confusion. When both "false
> memories" and "recalled memories" quasi-merge either in someone's
therapy or
> during accusations. So what happens is they are blurred together and
the
> "false memories" lead to doubt and creditable issues. And I believe
it is
> the happening here. That distinction has been blurred.
>
> But, hey what do I know?
> Peace, Phoenix
>
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> *** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> |
> * Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
> * SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
> * BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
> * SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
> * ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
> * MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
> * MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
> * 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
> |
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> **** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
caused many problems. People may experience a false memory, have many
doubts, but those doubts are squelched by the therapist (or others) who
told their denial is natural and proves the memory is real. The person
experiencing this painful memory wants the pain to go away, so wants to
come out of "denial," so accepts the memory as real in an attempt to
get better.
Donna
gogi...@my-deja.com
life. If that is accomplished and they experience pain because of
their estrangement from their family, they may wish to heal that rift
as well. I was only pointing out that IF they wish to reconcile, it's
usually not hopeless. Some people have let years go by because they
thought their family would reject them because of the accusations, when
that couldn't have been farther from the truth.
In article <398d...@post.newsfeeds.com>,
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
> "Colin" <nopew@for> wrote in message
> news:398fdaeb...@news.mindspring.com...
> > On Fri, 4 Aug 2000 20:02:53 -0400, "Phoenix" <som...@home.com>
wrote:
> >
> > >One last thought: Which is more important to you, that the lost
child
> comes
> > >home or the child learns to deal with their own life?
> >
> > >Peace, Phoenix
> >
> > Well there is a good point. The return of the prodigal child to the
bosom
> of his
> > loving family is a question in and of itself. I have seen the
glazed eyes
> of the
> > returning "wayward child," there is a desperation under the forced
gaiety
> of
> > reconciliation, the newly layered despair of returning to old
patterns.
> > Colin
>
> Not exactly my point but would be the potential outcome for the
prodigal
> child.
>
> We can say for certain that regardless if the person in question
recalled
> memories are false or real that person is dealing with "something".
I have
> yet to hear of a case where a supposedly healthy "normal" functioning
adult
> starts recalling false memories out of the blue. Usually they are
going to
> some professional seeking treatment for "something". Now I will
concede the
> following two possibilities: "memories" can be suggested, something
akin to
> a post-hypnotic suggest, and memories are not a concrete thing, that
is,
> there is a lot of personal perception involved. Regardless, the
person was
> dealing with "something" before the alleged false memories came into
the
> picture.
>
> So here we have this person stating your family will welcome you with
open
> arms and forgive you with the implication, "As long as you return to
your
> family." The offer of "forgiveness" seems to be conditional. My
point was
> which is more important the child returning to the family or the child
> healing from that "something"? There is no mention of we (your
family) are
> here and willing to help you through that "something". All I hear in
the
> offer is: come home and forget this silly nonsense of your false
memories
> and we can return to being one happy family. To me this person is
selfishly
> thinking more about the family cohesion than the health and welfare
of the
> child in question.
>
> But this is just my opinion
> Peace, Phoenix
>
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> *** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> |
> * Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
> * SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
> * BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
> * SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
> * ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
> * MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
> * MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
> * 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
> |
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> **** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
I'm glad to hear you are doing well. Weird that when I saw you had
responded to my post, I also winced; but was relieved to find your
response was not hostile to me.
Donna
In article <39976D8D...@asarian-host.org>,
karm...@asarian-host.org wrote:
> gogi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > First priority is for the person to function effectively in their
> > life. If that is accomplished and they experience pain because of
> > their estrangement from their family, they may wish to heal that
rift
> > as well. I was only pointing out that IF they wish to reconcile,
it's
> > usually not hopeless. Some people have let years go by because they
> > thought their family would reject them because of the accusations,
when
> > that couldn't have been farther from the truth.
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
therapists do this or that this is all patient's experience; only that
sometimes the concept of denial is applied to memories, sometimes
causing problems. Even now, people apply this concept to me, thinking
I am in denial of abuse. Fortunately for me, I am well and strong
enough now to know my own mind. But when faced with strong, physical
images and physical sensations, feelings of terror, "body" memories,
etc., which I didn't understand, I was not so strong and felt like I
didn't know my own mind. Then I was told that if I didn't accept these
things as real memories, I was in denial. Only MY experience; perhaps
no one else's.
Donna
In article <8n7i62$uge$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>,
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8n7gqm$ujt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Unfortunately, the concept of denial when applied to memories has
> > caused many problems. People may experience a false memory, have
many
> > doubts, but those doubts are squelched by the therapist (or others)
who
>
> not always Donna.. in your case, yes.. your therapist did this to you
and
> that's unfortunate.. but not all therapists are the same..
>
> > tell the person they are in denial if they doubt it. Further, they
are
> > told their denial is natural and proves the memory is real. The
person
> > experiencing this painful memory wants the pain to go away, so
wants to
> > come out of "denial," so accepts the memory as real in an attempt to
> > get better.
>
> My therapist never did anything like this.. none of them actually..
>
> Donna.. It's not so black and white.. You've been around the net long
enough
> to know that painting it as either black or white is gonna do nothing
but
> start the flames a'burning..
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
as telling people they were not abused, I thought I was merely asking
questions. I know now that that was a mistake and will not do it
again. It is not my place to question anyone else's reality. I'm
sorry for the pain I caused people.
Donna
In article <8mj7u6$t2k$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
dee...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hi azure
>
> In article <2000080515...@asarian-host.org>,
> azure <az...@asarian-host.org> wrote:
> >
> > "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:8mh5hb$1q5e$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > > Willis <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:LsDi5.9319$7F2.9...@news3.cableinet.net...
> > >
> > > > This morning I read this message and was obviously mad as hell
> about
> > > > it...today whilst at work, I spent the day trying to work out
jut
> *why*
> > > > I was so mad about it...this is probably not complete, and it is
> only
> > > > my opinion...I do not speak for anyone else...and it more than
> likely
> > > > won't make much sense to anyone but me, but here goes...
> > >
> > > > Firstly I *do* believe in false memory syndrome (or what ever it
> is
> > > > called)...
> > >
> > > I do too...
> > >
> > > > I also believe that many abusers try their damnedest to try and
> make
> > > > their victims believe that "it never happened"...I know mine
> did...I
> > > > think that
> > >
> > > mine didn't at the time, however.. I agree, that many abusers do
do
> > > this..
> >
> > mine did. mine was an expert "reconstructionist historian." (I just
> now
> > woke up groggy from a night dreaming about the Very Fine House...
> shiver)
> >
> > > > this may have made my reaction to the post more intense, but my
> > > > objections to it remain...and here they are...
> > > >
> > > > the tone... since coming to this newsgroup, I have decided that
> IMHO
> > > > the posts that don't provoke that kind of reaction in me are the
> ones
> > > > that are very carefully worded...this one, to me at least seemed
> like a
> > > > bull in a china shop in it's approach...had the writer told of
her
> > > > experience, for instance if "In my experience I found that even
> though
> > > > I had false memories of abuse, my parents still loved me and we
> > > > reconciled" replaced "If you think you may have false memories
of
> > > > abuse, take heart. As much as you may think your accusations
have
> > > > ruined your relationship with your parents, they may be waiting
> and
> > > > praying and loving you everyday. ", I'm sure that I would have
> read the
> > > > rest in a calmer frame of mind...
> > >
> > > Your reponse is not any different than responses to Donna on her
> previous
> > > visits to this newsgroup..
> > >
> > > Personally, I have always felt Donna has a very important story to
> > > tell... She needs to tell it about herself, like you note above..
> and not
> > > be pointing fingers at people like she does..
> >
> > Exactamundo. To hear Donna tell her story does not raise my hackles
> in the
> > slightest. To know that she is emailing others and chipping away at
> their
> > own belief in their sanity, does. To hear her say on the ng, "Both
> you and
> > I know your abuse did not happen" just because she's pissed and
> wanting to
> > score flamewar points, really does.
>
> I am not surprised that his would raise hackles...being still a newbie
> in terms of knowing past ng history, I was unaware that this had
> happened...
>
> >
> > > > negation... I have been discussing in RL lately the fact that
many
> > > > survivors were getting a raw deal when it came to validation...I
> know
> > > > that I ,personally have no one that will confirm for me that my
> abuse
> > > > took place...but I know it did...
> >
> > It is the basis of my horror of mindfucks.
> >
> > Truth, like light, can be described as both a particle and a wave...
> it is
> > both elastic and stable. A lot can be changed or altered
> or "flavored" by
> > one's POV and yet certain bedrock facts remain. In my family of
> origin,
> > peace depended on keeping the major perp quiet. Therefore, anything
> that
> > challenged or upset her must be silenced. The very sight of me
became,
> > especially in the perp's eyes, a pebble in the shoe, a reminder of
> what the
> > perp did. Therefore, I must be discounted, silenced. I must be
> convinced
> > that I am oversensitive, self-pitying, reading too much into
things...
> > "crazy."
>
> I shed a tear when I read this as it could have been me I was reading
> about...the way I put it was that my major perp had a gland that was
> set off by the sight of me, causing a chemical reaction that caused
her
> to just go beserk...I think in reality it is that whole thing of not
> liking to be confronted with their bad deeds...in their desparate need
> not to feel guilt, they will convince themselves and try to convince
> you that they have done nothing....
> >
> > Perhaps I will always have a vulnerable spot for attempts of others
to
> > convince me I'm crazy. However, I have found that truth is also like
> > railroad tracks... no matter how deeply they are buried, if I dig I
> can
> > find them, and they are always reassuringly parallel and stable and
> nailed
> > together with sturdy ties. My train of thought won't derail as long
> as I do
> > not allow others to heap their detritus on my tracks, and when they
> try, I
> > can dig them free.
>
> (((((azure))))) if that is okay with you...
> >
> > I can. I'm not sure others are that strong, and who knows, one
banana
> peel
> > might be enough to derail someone else.
> >
> > I see Donna, at her worst, as irresponsibly heaping detritus on
other
> > people's tracks in a misguided attempt to "help" them. I see her, at
> her
> > best, as raising her voice and saying, "Hey, people, memory does not
> have
> > photographic accuracy! One can be hypnotized into having false
> memories! It
> > happened to me..." And I agree, Pat, it is an important story and
> needs to
> > be heard.
>
> I agree that it needs hearing...as I said, it was the tone and the
> assumption that made me mad...
>
> Dee xxx
>
> >
> > azure
> >
> > --
> > For more information about this posting service, contact:
> > he...@asarian-host.org -- for all info about our server.
> > If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
> >
> > http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html
> >
>
Pat
Donna...
I honestly think you have a very good reason to be here in this group.. I
would love to see you talk about your 'therapist' abuse.. but from a
standpoint of Donna.. not Donna out to save the world.. The lessons you've
learned the hard way.. they are important.. for anyone to going into therapy
for any reason..
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8n9t5k$n6c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > "Tide Rider" <tideri...@kersur.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Dragon
when therapy is going wrong, or when they've got a bad therapist. But it
needs to be your story, told from your point of view. Maybe try using more
"I" statements - then it comes across more clearly as being something that
happened to you.
Dragon
Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8n9utg$2l5i$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
gogi...@my-deja.com
experience only? Ok, I'll take a deep breath and give it a try:
My therapist listened to my story about my sister who had recovered
repressed memories of sexual abuse by our father as a result of in-
patient treatment for depression. She listened while I told her that
my sister had recovered memories involving me being abused as well and
how I thought maybe I also had repressed memories. After several
visits, I asked her if she could help me recover memories if there were
any. She said yes she could, and the technique was called guided
imagery. She recommended "The Courage to Heal" as reading. I began
reading this book, going to therapy weekly, and thinking about the
possibility of my being sexually abused alot. When she used guided
imagery on me, I felt things happening to my body (although what
I "saw" was vague and distant) and felt a terror like I've never felt
before. She told me that the body stores memories, and this is what I
was feeling. She said the mind is like a computer and everything that
happens to us is recorded there somewhere. It's just a matter of
accessing it. She even said she had remembered being born. I was
skeptical about that, but figured I didn't have to accept every single
thing she said.
While I have my own story, it is intertwined with my sister's story.
While I did not believe everything my therapist said, most of what she
said lined up with the many therapists my sister had seen, both as an
in-patient and as an out-patient. I truly felt like I would be
betraying my sister if I didn't believe these concepts about memories,
and it seemed like I was one layperson's voice against all the
professionals I had knowledge of at the time.
While my sister suffered from depression before she went into treatment
and had just left her second husband at the age of 29, I had not
suffered in any significant psychological way, had two wonderful
children, and was very happily married. I asked my therapist how it
could be that I could have been sexually abused and yet be so well
adjusted (I told her that friends had reflected back to me that they
were shocked that I would have been abused as I was so well adjusted).
She shrugged and said that people are different and some have better
coping mechanisms.
I told my therapist I was struggling with accepting that I'd been
abused, that I had many wonderful memories of my parents. My mother
was an alcoholic for many years, but our family held an intervention,
after which she went into in-patient treatment. (She has not had a
drink in 11 years now!). My therapist told me that it was possible my
father had acted subconsciously and relayed a story of how a peer of
hers had grabbed her breast once at a party and acted like it didn't
happen. She was convinced he wasn't even aware he had done it; it was
subconscious. I was skeptical, but very confused by this point.
Because my father so vehemently denied doing anything, I asked her if
it was possible he had repressed having done it. At this, she said it
was very unlikely (which I realize now contradicts what she said about
acting subconsciously). She was sure my mother would admit the truth
once my father was dead (not that he was sick).
My parents sent me information from the FMSF which I brought to my
therapist. She treated it as information from the "enemy" and asked if
she could keep it. She told me a story about a therapist convention
she attended and how one of the speakers was there to speak about false
memories and was booed off the stage. This seemed to be confirmation
that the concept of false memories was ridiculous and impossible.
When I told the therapist I had cut off from my parents completely, to
her credit she did not congratulate me but expressed what seemed like
regret that I had cut off from my mother at least. This was a little
confusing to me. I was having a very difficult time maintaining
contact with my parents while believing the horrible things my sister
and I had supposedly remembered. It seemed like living two lives; and
to maintain my sanity, I felt like I had to choose one reality or the
other. To my deep and lifelong regret, I chose a totally false reality
for 6 years.
Anyway, that's all for now. My hubby's home after being away for 5
days.
Donna
In article <sph5mpf...@corp.supernews.com>,
Pat
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8nabpc$1m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> You really think it will be better received if I talk about my own
> experience only? Ok, I'll take a deep breath and give it a try:
it's a lot harder to talk about yourself...
> My therapist listened to my story about my sister who had recovered
> repressed memories of sexual abuse by our father as a result of in-
> patient treatment for depression. She listened while I told her that
> my sister had recovered memories involving me being abused as well and
> how I thought maybe I also had repressed memories.
What year was this? For the benefit of those who are unfamiliar, or not as
familiar as the case may be, with this trend in psychology as you and I are,
it helps to put a timeframe to your story...
I'm always amazed at how quick people are to pick up on the lastest
treatment modality and run with it without looking at the process
objectively..
> After several
> visits, I asked her if she could help me recover memories if there were
> any. She said yes she could, and the technique was called guided
> imagery.
I know 'guided imagery' again, is a specific therapeutic practice modality..
I think something similiar to guided imagery forms the basis for most types
of therapy.. Most people, imo, enter into therapy or counseling to discuss,
work thru, understand.. issues that affect us in there here and now... many
times, those issues have roots in our pasts.. My therapist(s) have done
that... But that's what I was paying them to do.. To help me come to terms
with.. find some inner peace with the wrongs that happened so many years
before.
None of them suggested things to me.. Mostly they tended to validate
feelings of anger I harboured against my mother and the rest of my family..
In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it did any of us any good..
> She recommended "The Courage to Heal" as reading. I began
> reading this book, going to therapy weekly, and thinking about the
> possibility of my being sexually abused alot.
The book (CTH) had not been written when I was in therapy focusing on
'abuse' issues (mid to late 80s) or if it had been, it was not on the
recommended reading list..
However, Ellen Bass and Louise Thornton published a book (I Never Told
Anyone: Writings by Women Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse) that I read while
I was in therapy. I found it helpful, in the sense that it was a collection
of powerful stories.. There was nothing, that I recall, in this book about
memory recovery or repressed memories..
I read CTH many years later.. after hearing all the controversy.. I found
it very difficult to relate my childhood experiences and my 'adult' feelings
about those experiences to what was outlined in the book.
> When she used guided
> imagery on me, I felt things happening to my body (although what
> I "saw" was vague and distant) and felt a terror like I've never felt
> before.
The closest thing that comes to my mind.. was the feeling that engulfed me
when I saw Frank's daughter crawl up into his lap one night while watching
TV.. This or something similiar a common trigger for survivors. You see a
child and an adult in a similiar situation which put you in danger.. Frank
was wonderful about the whole thing..
> She told me that the body stores memories, and this is what I
> was feeling. She said the mind is like a computer and everything that
> happens to us is recorded there somewhere. It's just a matter of
> accessing it. She even said she had remembered being born. I was
> skeptical about that, but figured I didn't have to accept every single
> thing she said.
I am a skeptic by nature. I don't believe our minds record things
accurately.. I would doubt anyone who tried to convince me otherwise..
> While I have my own story, it is intertwined with my sister's story.
> While I did not believe everything my therapist said, most of what she
> said lined up with the many therapists my sister had seen, both as an
> in-patient and as an out-patient. I truly felt like I would be
> betraying my sister if I didn't believe these concepts about memories,
> and it seemed like I was one layperson's voice against all the
> professionals I had knowledge of at the time.
I feel too much pressure is applied from our culture to accept the alledged
victim's word as gospel.. The concept applied not only to sexual abuse
victims but rape victims as well has led to many (and yes, tide, i know it's
an ambigious term.. one is too many in my book) people wronged imprisoned
for crimes they did not commit..
> While my sister suffered from depression before she went into treatment
> and had just left her second husband at the age of 29, I had not
> suffered in any significant psychological way, had two wonderful
> children, and was very happily married. I asked my therapist how it
> could be that I could have been sexually abused and yet be so well
> adjusted (I told her that friends had reflected back to me that they
> were shocked that I would have been abused as I was so well adjusted).
> She shrugged and said that people are different and some have better
> coping mechanisms.
I too suffered from depression.. I wont say that depression led me into
therapy in the first place.. The past sexual abuse did.. or rather when
people started talking about how past sexual abuse can (and often does)
manifest itself in despression, sexual dysfunction, anxiety/panic disorders,
etc. I recognized many of 'symptoms' in myself and thought I would give
therapy a try..
On the other hand, I do believe that there are many (or most, for that
matter) people who suffer with these types of disorders who were not
sexually abused.
> I told my therapist I was struggling with accepting that I'd been
> abused, that I had many wonderful memories of my parents. My mother
> was an alcoholic for many years, but our family held an intervention,
> after which she went into in-patient treatment. (She has not had a
> drink in 11 years now!).
This is another thing that made me shy away from the therapy process in
general. I went looking for guidance and understanding.. Instead, I found
a mindset that wanted to make me see my mother and family as evil people who
were out to deny me my reality... I have many pleasant memories of my
step-dad.. He was not a horrible, mean person. He was a kind man.. a
loving man... who was sick.. His sickness infected our family and me..
> My therapist told me that it was possible my
> father had acted subconsciously and relayed a story of how a peer of
> hers had grabbed her breast once at a party and acted like it didn't
> happen. She was convinced he wasn't even aware he had done it; it was
> subconscious. I was skeptical, but very confused by this point.
I can understand why you were confused.. Many times we brush against
people's private parts quite by accident.. One never knows how that person
may perceive that accidential touch..
> Because my father so vehemently denied doing anything, I asked her if
> it was possible he had repressed having done it. At this, she said it
> was very unlikely (which I realize now contradicts what she said about
> acting subconsciously). She was sure my mother would admit the truth
> once my father was dead (not that he was sick).
My mom and I have different memories of those years. My memories are
colored by my age, my emotional / maturation, and the on-going abuse. Her
memories are colored by her experiences as well..
While in thearpy, there was this idea presented that other people should
accept my reality as the only reality... I'm not sure my reality back then
was my reality but rather one that came from the
'sexual-abuse-recovery-model' in practice at that time.. This, in itself,
increased the conflict that existed between me and my family..
> My parents sent me information from the FMSF which I brought to my
> therapist. She treated it as information from the "enemy" and asked if
> she could keep it. She told me a story about a therapist convention
> she attended and how one of the speakers was there to speak about false
> memories and was booed off the stage. This seemed to be confirmation
> that the concept of false memories was ridiculous and impossible.
A sad time in survivor recovery, in my opinion.. It seems to me though,
that the tide has shifted and this is no longer as accepted as it once was..
> When I told the therapist I had cut off from my parents completely, to
> her credit she did not congratulate me but expressed what seemed like
> regret that I had cut off from my mother at least. This was a little
> confusing to me. I was having a very difficult time maintaining
> contact with my parents while believing the horrible things my sister
> and I had supposedly remembered. It seemed like living two lives; and
> to maintain my sanity, I felt like I had to choose one reality or the
> other. To my deep and lifelong regret, I chose a totally false reality
> for 6 years.
On an upside Donna.. You've managed to rebuild a relationship with your
family..
> Anyway, that's all for now. My hubby's home after being away for 5
> days.
Me too.. gotta get to work..
>
> Donna
>
pat
Willis
Dee xxx
--
******but I can no longer
do the 'eggshell walk'-
there comes a time when
one has to speak out-or
self destruct
Dragon-June 2000*******
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8n9trr$nmm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Dragon
but I do have a question. What exactly is "guided imagery"? I never heard
of it.
Dragon
Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8nbikg$20u8$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> <gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8nabpc$1m5
$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > You really think it will be better received if I talk about my own
> > experience only? Ok, I'll take a deep breath and give it a try:
>
> it's a lot harder to talk about yourself...
>
> > My therapist listened to my story about my sister who had recovered
> > repressed memories of sexual abuse by our father as a result of in-
> > patient treatment for depression. She listened while I told her
that
> > my sister had recovered memories involving me being abused as well
and
> > how I thought maybe I also had repressed memories.
>
> What year was this? For the benefit of those who are unfamiliar, or
not as
> familiar as the case may be, with this trend in psychology as you and
I are,
> it helps to put a timeframe to your story...
It was 1992.
This is true. I hadn't thought about the possibility that this was
truly an accidental touch that the man appropriately ignored rather
than emphasized by acknowledging in some way.
> > Because my father so vehemently denied doing anything, I asked her
if
> > it was possible he had repressed having done it. At this, she said
it
> > was very unlikely (which I realize now contradicts what she said
about
> > acting subconsciously). She was sure my mother would admit the
truth
> > once my father was dead (not that he was sick).
>
> My mom and I have different memories of those years. My memories are
> colored by my age, my emotional / maturation, and the on-going
abuse. Her
> memories are colored by her experiences as well..
>
> While in thearpy, there was this idea presented that other people
should
> accept my reality as the only reality... I'm not sure my reality back
then
> was my reality but rather one that came from the
> 'sexual-abuse-recovery-model' in practice at that time.. This, in
itself,
> increased the conflict that existed between me and my family..
Exactly! I wish that more therapy would take into consideration the
realities of all parties involved. At work, I often deal with
employees and their conflicts. There are always two, or more,
perceptions; and the "truth" is somewhere among those different
perceptions or within all of them. Only by having everyone listen to
the different perceptions can the conflicts be resolved. Sometimes
they are not fully resolvable, but everyone listening to each other
usually helps. IF everyone is willing to listen. I have heard stories
of therapists bringing parents in so that the client can confront them
in therapy. There is no interest or attempt to listen to the parents'
perspective.
>
> > My parents sent me information from the FMSF which I brought to my
> > therapist. She treated it as information from the "enemy" and
asked if
> > she could keep it. She told me a story about a therapist convention
> > she attended and how one of the speakers was there to speak about
false
> > memories and was booed off the stage. This seemed to be
confirmation
> > that the concept of false memories was ridiculous and impossible.
>
> A sad time in survivor recovery, in my opinion.. It seems to me
though,
> that the tide has shifted and this is no longer as accepted as it
once was..
I hope you're right Pat. And while new cases are fewer than they used
to be, there are still families being blown out of the water by this
phenomenon. And while you may be surprised how many therapists still
carry the same belief system my therapist did, there is certainly more
information out there to challenge it. That has to be helping. I know
if I had knowledge that there were retractors out there back in 1992
(or 1989 when my sister first sought treatment), it would have made me
question everything much more.
>
> > When I told the therapist I had cut off from my parents completely,
to
> > her credit she did not congratulate me but expressed what seemed
like
> > regret that I had cut off from my mother at least. This was a
little
> > confusing to me. I was having a very difficult time maintaining
> > contact with my parents while believing the horrible things my
sister
> > and I had supposedly remembered. It seemed like living two lives;
and
> > to maintain my sanity, I felt like I had to choose one reality or
the
> > other. To my deep and lifelong regret, I chose a totally false
reality
> > for 6 years.
>
> On an upside Donna.. You've managed to rebuild a relationship with
your
> family..
Absolutely. Though the scars are there, healing has occurred. I am
very grateful that my parents were still alive when I realized the
truth (they are approaching 80).
>
> > Anyway, that's all for now. My hubby's home after being away for 5
> > days.
>
> Me too.. gotta get to work..
Thanks Pat. Have a great day.
Donna
Willis
this must have been terrible for you and your family...sickens me really as
there are so many who *have* been abused but are receiving no help at
all...I wait with interest for the next part of your story...thanks for
sharing it in a way which is easier to read...
Dee xxx
--
******but I can no longer
do the 'eggshell walk'-
there comes a time when
one has to speak out-or
self destruct
Dragon-June 2000*******
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8nabpc$1m5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
gogi...@my-deja.com
state. (For the most part, professionals agree that hypnosis should
not be used to remember things because it makes the mind so open to
suggestion). You close your eyes, breath very slowly and deeply,
totally relax your body, etc. It can be used as a relaxation exercise
to lower stress. I took an exercise class for pregnant women with my
first child where we did this at the end of the class. It's harmless
enough when used in this context. Once totally relaxed, the class
would be told to imagine a beach, hear the palm trees, etc.
In recovered memory therapy, however, once I was totally relaxed, I was
told to picture the house where I was raised. I began describing what
I was "seeing" to the therapist and started having the "body memories"
after that. Using guided imagery put me in a totally vulnerable
state. I was aware that the purpose of the technique was to recover
possible memories of abuse (a suggestion in itself). I had been
reading and thinking about (even picturing) the possibility of being
sexually abused. The combination of this defenseless state and the
thought processes of my mind at the time made me a prime candidate for
false memories.
In article <spk31vd...@corp.supernews.com>,
gogi...@my-deja.com
therapy and told me she had recovered these memories about our father,
I had nightmares for weeks. She confronted my father within the next
few months, and our family was torn apart. My mother didn't believe
it, but her heart was broken and torn between her beloved husband and
two daughters. I remember one phone conversation with my mother at the
time (we live in different states) with us both sobbing. She was
telling me that my then 6-yr-old daughter had told my Dad the last time
we visited them that "I'll never forget you Grandpa," and it was as
though she somehow knew something was going to happen. One brother
disowned my sister and me. The other brother tried to walk the fence,
saying he didn't know what to believe (hence, *everyone* was angry with
the poor guy). My father developed an ulcer. Since I retracted, he
confided in me that he thought it was going to kill my mother (my
mother is a highly emotional person). I was afraid it was going to
kill my sister who continued to recover memories for months and months,
and they became more horrible and more bizarre.
Our family was not perfect. There is no such thing since there are no
perfect people. My mother struggled with alcoholism for 15+ years, and
we all struggled with her alcoholism during that time. But we all
loved each other and knew we were loved by each other. That's part of
the reason her drinking hurt so much---because I loved her and wanted
her to be happy. But the false sexual abuse memories put all of that
love into question. How could he love us and do this? How could she
love us and allow it? It felt like the whole world as I knew it no
longer existed. And I'm sure everyone in the family had the same, or
similarly strong emotions.
The good part is that the love eventually got me out of it. I never
gave up hope, even when I totally believed it all. I kept praying for
God's will because I knew the current situation could not be His will.
For years, I was happy in my immediate life with my husband and
children; but my heart ached with a sadness about my parents and
brothers. It felt like there was a place inside me that was empty. It
felt empty, hollow, and just plain wrong. Anyway, I think that the
love I still felt underneath all the anger (and my ability to pray
about it) was what kept me open enough to finally listen and hear about
false memories.
I can't get back the 6 years I and my children lost with my parents,
but I can live the rest of my life better because of it. I do feel it
has made me more understanding of some situations that other people
find incomprehensible, like cults. I once would have thought I was way
too strong-minded to be taken in by anything like this, but I now
believe that knowledge of how easily our minds can be influenced is the
best defense against being taken in, and I make sure to educate my kids
about it whenever the opportunity arises. Our imaginations are very
powerful, and our minds are more easily influenced than any of us want
to admit. Hell, the advertising industry is built on the ability to
influence. Then there's peer pressure--how many people have done
things they never would do if it weren't for peer pressure (even rapes
and killings)? Hitler, Jonestown, the Manson murders, and remember
Patty Hearse? All of these involved mind control and the power to
influence.
Anyway, I'm rambling, sorry. Thanks for listening.
Donna
In article <qjqm5.39152$V_2.3...@news1.cableinet.net>,
mic...@hotmail.com
gogi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> While I know most people in this group interpreted my historical posts
> as telling people they were not abused, I thought I was merely asking
> questions. I know now that that was a mistake and will not do it
> again. It is not my place to question anyone else's reality. I'm
> sorry for the pain I caused people.
>
> Donna
Hello Donna,
I just dropped in to aar for a quick 'lurk' and started reading this
thread. I thought your first post was definitely less intrusive than some
of the posts you've started threads with in the past but was really
pleased that you told your story so fully further on in the thread. I
think your story is one that anyone who sees a therapist or is tussling
with memories which are apparently of childhood abuse would be wise to
know about. Thank you for telling it.
Thank you also for what you said above. I didn't mind it when you first
asked a few questions but I felt that when you persisted so strongly it
became intrusive and I did find it painful and I felt offended on others'
behalf as well. In some instances it did seem to me that you were flatly
telling people they had not been abused. I am still 'tussling' with
memories - my family believes they are true and they are the ones who
have found most of the corroboration but I think I still want a 'nicer'
explanation or something. The reason your insistent questioning was
painful to me was that it kept reminding me that the memories seem to be
true. It hurt to find that even when exactingly grilled by someone who
seemed very eager to find that they were false or to offer an alternative
explanation and I answered honestly I found that my experience didn't fit
the picture of false memories and that the most realistic assessment was
that what I 'remembered' had really happened. I hate that. It's horrible.
I don't want that to be true. It was like being unsure if you've got a
wound and finding out that you have by someone poking at it.
Anyway, I also wanted to apologise to you for some very unkind things
I've said to and about you. I'm glad that you have reconciled with your
family and I hope things continue to improve for you.
Mick.
--
"Many a mickle makes a muckle".
anon-...@anon.twwells.com
mic...@hotmail.com
polly wog
polly wog
mic...@hotmail.com wrote:
:-)In article <8n9trr$nmm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
:-) gogi...@my-deja.com wrote:
:-)> While I know most people in this group interpreted my historical posts
:-)> as telling people they were not abused, I thought I was merely asking
:-)> questions. I know now that that was a mistake and will not do it
:-)> again. It is not my place to question anyone else's reality. I'm
:-)> sorry for the pain I caused people.
:-)>
:-)> Donna
:-)
:-)Hello Donna,
:-)
:-)I just dropped in to aar for a quick 'lurk' and started reading this
:-)thread. I thought your first post was definitely less intrusive than some
:-)of the posts you've started threads with in the past but was really
:-)pleased that you told your story so fully further on in the thread. I
:-)think your story is one that anyone who sees a therapist or is tussling
:-)with memories which are apparently of childhood abuse would be wise to
:-)know about. Thank you for telling it.
:-)
:-)Thank you also for what you said above. I didn't mind it when you first
:-)asked a few questions but I felt that when you persisted so strongly it
:-)became intrusive and I did find it painful and I felt offended on others'
:-)behalf as well. In some instances it did seem to me that you were flatly
:-)telling people they had not been abused. I am still 'tussling' with
:-)memories - my family believes they are true and they are the ones who
:-)have found most of the corroboration but I think I still want a 'nicer'
:-)explanation or something. The reason your insistent questioning was
:-)painful to me was that it kept reminding me that the memories seem to be
:-)true. It hurt to find that even when exactingly grilled by someone who
:-)seemed very eager to find that they were false or to offer an alternative
:-)explanation and I answered honestly I found that my experience didn't fit
:-)the picture of false memories and that the most realistic assessment was
:-)that what I 'remembered' had really happened. I hate that. It's horrible.
:-)I don't want that to be true. It was like being unsure if you've got a
:-)wound and finding out that you have by someone poking at it.
:-)
:-)Anyway, I also wanted to apologise to you for some very unkind things
:-)I've said to and about you. I'm glad that you have reconciled with your
:-)family and I hope things continue to improve for you.
:-)
:-)Mick.
:-)--
:-)"Many a mickle makes a muckle".
:-)anon-...@anon.twwells.com
:-)mic...@hotmail.com
:-)
:-)
:-)Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
:-)Before you buy.
and the greatest of these is love
gogi...@my-deja.com
I'm sorry things I said caused you pain. It was not my intent.
Donna
In article <8nh236$30v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
mic...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <8n9trr$nmm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> gogi...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > While I know most people in this group interpreted my historical
posts
> > as telling people they were not abused, I thought I was merely
asking
> > questions. I know now that that was a mistake and will not do it
> > again. It is not my place to question anyone else's reality. I'm
> > sorry for the pain I caused people.
> >
> > Donna
>
> Hello Donna,
>
> I just dropped in to aar for a quick 'lurk' and started reading this
> thread. I thought your first post was definitely less intrusive than
some
> of the posts you've started threads with in the past but was really
> pleased that you told your story so fully further on in the thread. I
> think your story is one that anyone who sees a therapist or is
tussling
> with memories which are apparently of childhood abuse would be wise to
> know about. Thank you for telling it.
>
> Thank you also for what you said above. I didn't mind it when you
first
> asked a few questions but I felt that when you persisted so strongly
it
> became intrusive and I did find it painful and I felt offended on
others'
> behalf as well. In some instances it did seem to me that you were
flatly
> telling people they had not been abused. I am still 'tussling' with
> memories - my family believes they are true and they are the ones who
> have found most of the corroboration but I think I still want
a 'nicer'
> explanation or something. The reason your insistent questioning was
> painful to me was that it kept reminding me that the memories seem to
be
> true. It hurt to find that even when exactingly grilled by someone who
> seemed very eager to find that they were false or to offer an
alternative
> explanation and I answered honestly I found that my experience didn't
fit
> the picture of false memories and that the most realistic assessment
was
> that what I 'remembered' had really happened. I hate that. It's
horrible.
> I don't want that to be true. It was like being unsure if you've got a
> wound and finding out that you have by someone poking at it.
>
> Anyway, I also wanted to apologise to you for some very unkind things
> I've said to and about you. I'm glad that you have reconciled with
your
> family and I hope things continue to improve for you.
>
> Mick.
> --
> "Many a mickle makes a muckle".
> anon-...@anon.twwells.com
> mic...@hotmail.com
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
>
> <numerous section have been snipped, see thread for complete story>
>
> > > Granted with a but... Going to the other extreme of having
a "witch
> hunt"
> > > mentality will only cause more destruction. Sadly, the modern
justice
> > > system is more geared to resolving the conflict at the expense of
the
> truth.
> > > That is, so long as there is a conviction then the case ends
there. And
> > > this attitude reflects people's generally desire to place blame
and seek
> > > resolution regardless if it is the truth or not.
>
> Pat I want to repeat my opening remark... the "system" is more geared
to
> getting the conviction and the truth is usually the first casulty.
That is
> why the legal system is broken on a grand scale. I remember one 20/20
> investigation about four regular decent guys convicted of rape and
assault
> based on one person remembering a birthday. There were at least 30
eye
> witness placing these men in a bar away from the crime scene and the
jury
> believed that one person's testimony based on remembering a
birthday. They
> spent four years in prison. It took the investigative reporter only
a day
> to find a credit card receipt with one of their signatures, like they
said.
> And that would have been reasonable doubt. It was later found out
that the
> key witness remembered the wrong birthday.
>
> Now if that could happen you expect anyone to be surprised by your
story?
>
> You were screwed by the legal system and the medical community. And
false
> memories plays a minor role, perhaps a pivotal role but a minor one.
It is
> the "corrupt" system which is at fault.
>
> > my son finds himself there.. yes, he says.. they play the game.. he
tells
> > the therapist, he tells the police.. he is changed with sexual
battery...
> > doesnt matter diddly squat that game was her idea.. he's older than
she is
> > .. she's only 9.. he just turned 12.. it's the law see.. the law
doesnt
> > care who started what.. he was a whole 26 months older than she was
and
> > should have known better..
>
> Charging a 9-11 year old (never specified when the incidents took
place) and
> then actively committing them based solely on testimony of a nine
year old
> is irresponsible, that is how the Salem Witch Trials worked.
>
> > > I would like to point out that a common response to intense
trauma,
> > > including sexual abuse, will be to block out the memories.
> >
> > In my opinion... that's a bunch of malarky designed by money-
grabbing
> > psychologists to increase their earning potential..
In my opinion, it's an incorrect belief system of too many misinformed,
misguided psychologists.
>
> Sorry Pat that will not negate the evidence. It is quite common, was
called
> "shell shock" in WWI, and every major war has had mental trauma
causalities
> since. Almost all major traumatic events will have people blocking
out
> memories to some degree.
I think "to some degree" is the key phrase. Certainly, if someone
experiences alot of trauma (as in a war), they will not remember it
all; and may even couscious choose not to recall events. But they
don't forget having gone to war. I spoke to a 2nd generation
psychologist whose father worked in a Veteran's hospital during and
after WWII. His father said the post traumatic stress resulted in guys
that could not *stop* remembering the horror they experienced.
I would like to remind you are talking to someone
> who recalled memories on his own without the influence of any
suggestive
> therapist whatsoever.
And while I am not speaking to your specific case, there are those who
have experienced false memories after participating in support groups,
reading books, going to weekend retreats. A suggestive therapist is
not necessary for false memories. The concept that a person could be
repeatedly sexually abused and not recall *any* of it, along with the
idea that there is a certain set of symptoms an abused person ends up
with, can be a strong suggestion in itself to someone who is struggling
in their life and trying to find answers.
>
> By making a blanket statement like that you are denying the
experience of
> many people here and that is why you hearing a gut response, "What
the fuck
> do you know?".
>
> > > Personally I woke up to an onslaught
> > > of memories which I had only one vague distant memory to. Then
there
> > > numerous memories that have "appeared" out of no where. One day,
> sitting
> > > down writing my thoughts, BANG!!!, I was thrown into a
flashback. I
> felt my
> > > breath dying as the hand of a demon (my father) is wrapped around
my
> throat
> > > strangling me to death. There were tiny signs of this event in my
> behavior
> > > (hindsight is 20/20) but I had no clue that this ever happened
until
> that
> > > night my clothes were drenching from sweat and I desperately
gasped for
> air.
> > > You ever been strangled, oh, it not a pleasant experience to say
the
> least.
> > > This is just one memory recalled and it is tame compared to
the "other"
> > > stuff I remember.
Again,I am not suggesting that your memories are not real. But the
strength of the emotions and physical sensations experienced while
recalling memories does not necessarily mean that they are accurate.
The feelings I experienced during false memories were some of the
strongest I have ever experienced in my life.
>
> Pat, ignoring it does not make it disappear. Again, I repeat the
above
> event occurred as I was writing in my journal. I never was under the
care
> of a therapist who "suggested" those memories to me. I would just
like you
> to accept that this does happen to people.
>
> > the therapists would only tell me my son was a danger.. that he
> > needed intensive therapy.. probably inpatient confinement..
>
> More mistakes. The "cure" seem overly serve based on the allege
pedophilia
> of what a 11 year old? I bet if you investigate there is little
research on
> early pedophila in children. That is, I even wonder if there are
diagnosis
> criteria for early pedophila in the first place. So you could
question if
> the diagonsis was valid in the first place casting doubt on
everything that
> happened there after. If you could prove that you might have the
whole case
> overturned.
>
> Something you should investigate with your expert in the field. What
> exactly is the diagonsis criteria? What age can it be applied?
Could such
> a diagonsis be upheld under peer review? Basically was it valid in
the
> first place?
>
> Why is that important? You ever hear of suing for incompetence?
>
> Personally, if you have been reading my rants, just recently I was
judged,
> convicted, and sentenced to a three day stay in a pysche ward. And
by my
> best guest is because I looked at someone "funny". Now if didn't
behave and
> showed my true anger I would have been drugged, physically confined,
and
> probably commit. And then they would say, "See we were right." So I
know
> personally how the system can screw you.
>
> > during the months before our custody hearing, my sons were
subjected to
> what
> > i call psycholocial torture.. all those techniques bound to cause
false
> > memories were used.. all to get them to remember when i abused
them.. what
> i
> > did when i abused them..
>
> And I agree with you... the standard interrogation techniques, and
that is
> what it was an *interrogation*, should not be used in these cases.
There is
> huge debate about standard interrogation techniques used susecptiable
adult,
> let alone children, where the police basically coherse, intimidate,
and
> "threaten", the suspect until they give in. They get
the "confession" but
> at what price. Again, I repeat the "system" is geared toward getting
the
> conviction at the price of the truth.
>
> > to this day, i regret my answer (having no idea of
> > where they were headed).. i told him.. tell 'em what they want to
hear..
>
> And that is what many children will do, simply because they are
children and
> what to "please" the adults some how. Only experts in the field who
know
> how to tell the difference should talk, not interrogate, the children.
> Should never be done by police officers in a police station or by any
> "unqualified" persons. They are going to fuck it up simply because
they are
> inexperienced.
>
> > soon thereafter.. his memories started to emerge.. first it was
just a
> dark
> > shadow at the door.. it took a few sessions to put actions to the
figure..
> a
> > few more to recover the actions... they managed to take a memory of
> > something that did happen and make it into something that didn't
happen..
This is true. And good memories can become distorted and painful. I
always had a memory of my Dad carring me on the beach and I was
pointing out to him how my bathing suit had a hole in it. During the
recovered memory process, this wonderful, sweet memory that had
previously made me feel secure and loved, took on a nasty, hateful
overtone. It was like even my good memories became tainted and
everything good about my childhood was stolen from me.
Donna
> > my son remembers it was it was replayed..
>
> This is already a know phenomon with adults and children are very
suseptible
> to direction. That is why only by *experts* in the field because
they are
> less likely, said less likely, to direct the child.
>
> > I didn't either.. For many years, my mother believed her little
girl did
> > the best she could to steal her husband away from her..
>
> And if your mother uttered those words to me, I would know that your
family
> was quite dysfunction (to be polite). For she instantly tells that
she has
> no concept of proper parent/child boundaries.
>
> > when it's your reputation and your sanity.. yes.. when it's your
child's
> > reputation and sanity.. yes..
>
> You case is "different" than what I was describing. The girl reports
an
> incident, it is investigate and the false memories were used again the
> person being accused, your son. I was referring to when it is an
alleged
> adult against either a child/adult recalling the memories.
>
> You story is more a modern day witch hunt. They still happen you
know, but
> it is not "witches" people are looking for.
>
> > our custody hearing was to start the monday after memorial day.. we
had
> > subpeoned my son's mental health records since neither cps or his
> therapist
> > were willing to discuss the issue with me.. late friday afternoon..
at
> > 4:45p, 15 minutes before the court closed for the holiday weekend,
the
> > records were delivered. my attorney just happened to be at the
court
> house
> > and was able to have the records removed to the juvenille jail were
we
> could
> > review the records under supervision..
>
> This is a classic lawyer ploy of keeping damaging evidence from the
other
> side.
>
> > her daugher had talked about her daddies.. all of them.. she didn't
> remember
> > her real daddy.. he had died when she was real little.. her other
> stepdaddy
> > was real mean and beat up her mama and her.. her new stepdaddy was
real
> > nice.. she liked him.. she wasnt sure if she liked having brothers
> though..
> > her in-depth psych eval reported she had some learning difficulties
and
> she
> > was very conflicted about what was going on with her stepbrother..
>
> Strange that she was never put under the microscope.
>
> > my son's psych eval was strange to say the least.. i objected to the
> person
> > who conducted the eval.. a student intern.. her observations were
ok.. i
> > dont find anything amiss in what she noted.. he is an intelligent
young
> > man.. very caring.. very loving.. she noted some feelings he had
> concerning
> > maternal abandonment.. (i dont find that odd either considering i
couldn't
> > talk with him about what was surely a traumatic event in his
life).. her
> > recommendations.. though.. were inpatient hospitalization to curb
his
> > developing pedophilia.
>
> I doubt there was much evidence to support such a strong diagonsis.
>
> > this distrubed me very much.. i talked with my
> > psychiatrist and a very close friend of an ex-SO who is a well-known
> figure
> > in this field.. neither one said could find anything in the written
> > observations to support the recommendations..
>
> Case in point.
>
> > their attorney made a big to-do about me not wanting my son
committed (for
> > at least a year) to a psychiatric hospital. i would not agree to
his
> > confinement.. they needed my agreement and insurance to pull it
off.. i
> > refused to agree until he received an independent psychiatric
evaluation
> by
> > a psychiatrist who specialized with juvenile offenders.
>
> I appauld you for this, you probably saved him from suicide. And in
my book
> this indicates a rational plead for an outsider's opinion. That is
why I
> say *unbias* investigators.
>
> > but that doesnt change the fact that my son was convicted of sexual
> > battery.. doesnt erase the year he spent on probation.. doesnt
erase the
> > attempt to lock him away in a psych hospital.. doesnt give me back
the job
> i
> > lost.. doesnt change the fact that i lost everything..
>
> And my opinion this is because of an over zealous, ill-trained, and
> ill-equiped legal/medical system. Doesn't excuse them one bit just an
> observation.
>
> > Regardless of how you slice it.. there is always someone's sanity
and
> > reputation at stake.. be it the one making the allegations or the
one
> > accused.. it is a no win situation.. the best that can happen is to
> lesson
> > the collateral damage done to all..
>
> I repeat, your case is "different" than the typical story. Because
in your
> case the "false memories" are from the accused and not the victim.
The
> typical story is the accused is claiming the victim was duped by the
> therapist into creating the memories. So even though you are a
victim of
> "false memories" it is "different".
>
> > That means.. ~investigating~.. that means asking the one making the
claims
> > all sorts of questions.. that means not drawing a conclusion before
> looking
> > carefully at all the people invovled..
> >
> > If you look deep enough.. Ask enough questions.. Don't pre-
determine
> > something is right and set out to prove it right...
>
> Couldn't have said it better. I didn't comment much on your story
because
> one simple statement says it all, "You were screwed by the system."
Dosen't
> one damn bit negate what happen to you but it reflects my opinion of
your
> story.
>
> I don't know how much balls you have but part of me would suggest you
> investigate charging the system with inept investigating and
treatment of
> your son and the case. It is a straight up-hill battle, you will
probably
> lose, but it is an idea.
>
> Another scarcastic comment I have is: "People do not question the
will of
> the medical gods for it is not our place to question but obey." Sound
> overly dramatic but that is the result many times, the medical
community,
> especially the psychartric community has been place in a semi-deity
postion.
> And many psychartist, never look in the mirror and question their own
> motives and act as if they are infailable. I despise that arrogance.
> Society only re-enforces their belief. So when one psychartist comes
along
> and say patient A is suffering from such and such, many psycharists
will
> assume it is valid and go from there. And now who is the lay
person's to
> question the high priest shrink? So the other professionals just re-
enforce
> what was originally said.
>
> > > But hey, just my opinion
> >
> > But hey... it's just my sons' lives.. it's just my life....
>
> I didn't mean any disrespect by that comment just acknowledging what
I say
> is *just my opinion*, that is all.
>
> Peace, Phoenix.
>
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> *** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> |
> * Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
> * SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
> * BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
> * SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
> * ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
> * MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
> * MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
> * 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
> |
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> **** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Pat...> news:8mke4q$1a2c$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...> > news:CFhj5.11822$V_2.6...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > I know...it happened, and is still happening to me...on my
own...by
> > > myself...
> > >
> > > Dee xxx
> >
> >
> > it did to me today too.. as i was writing that post... everytime i
tell
> the
> > story, something changes.. something is left out.. something else is
> > remembered...
> >
>
> I'm a tad confused...so False Memories are implanted by unethical
> therapists, this I understand...but what about the spontaneous
flashbacks
> that happen that are not implanted by a therapist? are they false or
not?
> what I was referring to was the fact that the flashbacks I had which
could
> *not* have been *put there*...I think that because I am further along
in my
> recovery, my protecter part of me thinks I am ready to face these
things one
> by one, deal with them and then put them away...
Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories (and
that's not always an easy determination), but I don't personally care
for the concept that our psyche holds memories from us until we are
ready to deal with them because it was a concept that contributed to my
believing my false memories for so long.
I have been attacked for the opinion I am going to express here.....I
believe that if something comes into our minds (whether via hypnosis,
flashback, vision or whatever) and the information comes as a *total*
shock (and I don't mean a detail of some event, I mean a whole
experience), then it does not represent a real memory. Real memories
feel familiar, like "oh yeah! I had forgotten that." But I admit this
is just my opinion based on my own experience and not supported by any
scientific studies.
Donna
>
> > it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events..
only as i
> > recall them..
> >
> I think Pat, that we are talking about two different things...we
started off
> talking about events which did not happen...the fact that remembered
events
> take on a different shape due to time or perception doesn't mean that
they
> didn't happen...
>
> Dee xxx
Phoenix
Donna, I have heard you say that you do not deny my experiences but...
I find it ironic that you are "arguing" (as in debate) for your side as you
are against using the same premise.
This is, "what happened to me, these are my experiences, therefore they
represent reality." That is, during therapy you experienced what are called
false memories and because that happen it represent your reality and as such
you are then implying that because of your experiences that others might me
experiencing them too.
One thing to play devil's advocate, and say, "Excuse me... but what
about..." Personally, I have been the lone voice myself being "shot down"
by the majority. But to then conclude that those experiences represent the
only reality, which you keep reasserting, is wrong.
Again I repeat there are two things being discussed, false memories and
recalled memories. And discussing them in black and white world it is so
easy to say "This is the way it is." Humanity is so ignorant of what
reality is and to say we got a handle on it, well, is arrogance. Just read
any thing on the history of science and you will discover how much reality
and the truth have changed. But that is another issue.
A couple of points...
1) Do we remember everything we experience? No... or else there would be no
need for repetition in schools. We are continually and selective
remembering things which are important to our *own* life. With that said I
do believe most (I said most.) traumatic events are recorded under a very
simple premise... such information is vital to your own survival. In the
bigger scheme of things it might not be important at all but we are not
talking about a group but an individual's experience. And at the time the
event we didn't have hindsight.
2) Do we remember everything mechanically? No... or else we would be
unemotional automotons... just a camera. Everything is filter through our
preceptions of reality, our experiences, our other memories, our feelings,
and so on. Life in the present cannot exist separate from the past.
Memories cannot be isolated, they are always in context of our experiences.
And the few who don't do this are truly living each day anew - the last one
no longer exists for them, literally. This is uncommon and most people's
memories are always in context.
3) Do we remember things objectively? No... if you have ever been mad at
someone then you will remember how that affected your memories. When you
had time to reflect isn't it amazing how what you remember changed over
time. Or have you had someone point out the "bigger picture". Do you know
people who are so affected by the emotions themselves that decades later it
still clouds their memories of events? I do.
4) Do we remember everything at once? I had one person recall a rape to
me, an adult experience and remembered quite a few details except the
penetration. It literally was "missing" from the story. Sort of like a
missing note. Only when you try to connect the dots do you realize it was
missing. The person was oblivious to it and when I made the connection for
them, they cried in my arms.
5) Do we recall everything in detail when asked about a memory? No... every
hear of something called the sub-conscious? Simple test... what do you
think about when I say apple and cinnamon. Dwell on it for a moment. You
were not aware of those memories before, were you? Most people say the
sub-conscious is this mysterious void but it is simple that which you are
not conscious of.
There are those that "reconstruct"... people who change events to suit
whatever. Completely rearranges them. One group of professionals like this
are lawyers - that is what they are paid to do.
There are those that "time-skewing"... people who rearrange the order of
events, usually to justify their emotions. Happened to me while talking to
someone here in this ng... said the reason she was "leary" about my inital
post was because I insulted her. Yet, that is impossible because I
"insulted" her after she responded to the intial post.
There are those that "deny"... best example is of a guy who shoots people
on a subway, numerous eye witness accounts. He believes he is innocent that
he defends himself in court. And then there is the story of the mother who
never saw the abuse at all, yet she was in the room at the time.
There are those "oblivious"... not so much denial but an unawareness of
their own history. Personal experience, of someone who has no reason why I
am upset with them.
There are those that "project"... funny how my sister can remember events
that are impossible for her to remember? She never was there in the first
place. Asked me once to give her information about places she never could
have been at to help her remember... um?
Memory is like nature... it is impossible to look at species of animal,
plant, or insect, without taking a look at the whole - the interconnections,
the interdependency, the primary, secondary, or tertiary causes and effects.
The point, you cannot separate memory from the whole and make conclusions
based on your isolated observations. Memory is a spider's web with so many
interdependent factors that to look at one thread is to miss the fact you
are looking a web.
Therefore use the above points to then conclude that recalled memories
cannot be, or because memories are subjective they cannot represent real
events is wrong. To make the opposite claim that false memories cannot be
because of the strength of recalled memories is also wrong.
Neither side of this "argument" is right. Somewhere floating between both
side is the truth. But in a black and white world we want to have
absolutes. To justify the medical treatment of people and the going
scientific perception of reality. To justify our feelings, anger, and
fears.
Life is neither black or white but a multitude of grays.
Peace, Phoenix
Willis
Hi Donna...
[...]
> Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories (and
> that's not always an easy determination),
nods...
but I don't personally care
> for the concept that our psyche holds memories from us until we are
> ready to deal with them because it was a concept that contributed to my
> believing my false memories for so long.
This doesn't make them untrue...had I remembereed everything at once, I
would have been completely overwhelmed and I would probably have killed
myself...Goddess knows I came close enough to it just remembering bit by
bit...
>
> I have been attacked for the opinion I am going to express here.....I
> believe that if something comes into our minds (whether via hypnosis,
> flashback, vision or whatever) and the information comes as a *total*
> shock (and I don't mean a detail of some event, I mean a whole
> experience), then it does not represent a real memory. Real memories
> feel familiar, like "oh yeah! I had forgotten that." But I admit this
> is just my opinion based on my own experience and not supported by any
> scientific studies.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you are wrong...in my
experience, real memories can be so traumatic that you forget for your own
good...real memories can be triggered by something, a word, a smell, a
sound, an action and then a whole lot of stuff can come pouring out...this
in my case was real stuff, verified by others...and this is not a detail,
but a whole experience...
Dee xxx
--
******but I can no longer
do the 'eggshell walk'-
there comes a time when
one has to speak out-or
self destruct
Dragon-June 2000*******
>
Willis
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8nfl4c$gdf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Thanks Dee. It *was* terrible. When my sister first came out of
> therapy and told me she had recovered these memories about our father,
> I had nightmares for weeks. She confronted my father within the next
> few months, and our family was torn apart. My mother didn't believe
> it, but her heart was broken and torn between her beloved husband and
> two daughters. I remember one phone conversation with my mother at the
> time (we live in different states) with us both sobbing. She was
> telling me that my then 6-yr-old daughter had told my Dad the last time
> we visited them that "I'll never forget you Grandpa," and it was as
> though she somehow knew something was going to happen. One brother
> disowned my sister and me. The other brother tried to walk the fence,
> saying he didn't know what to believe (hence, *everyone* was angry with
> the poor guy). My father developed an ulcer. Since I retracted, he
> confided in me that he thought it was going to kill my mother (my
> mother is a highly emotional person). I was afraid it was going to
> kill my sister who continued to recover memories for months and months,
> and they became more horrible and more bizarre.
Sounds awful...
>
> Our family was not perfect. There is no such thing since there are no
> perfect people. My mother struggled with alcoholism for 15+ years, and
> we all struggled with her alcoholism during that time. But we all
> loved each other and knew we were loved by each other. That's part of
> the reason her drinking hurt so much---because I loved her and wanted
> her to be happy. But the false sexual abuse memories put all of that
> love into question. How could he love us and do this? How could she
> love us and allow it? It felt like the whole world as I knew it no
> longer existed. And I'm sure everyone in the family had the same, or
> similarly strong emotions.
this sounds like usual stuff...
>
> The good part is that the love eventually got me out of it. I never
> gave up hope, even when I totally believed it all. I kept praying for
> God's will because I knew the current situation could not be His will.
> For years, I was happy in my immediate life with my husband and
> children; but my heart ached with a sadness about my parents and
> brothers. It felt like there was a place inside me that was empty. It
> felt empty, hollow, and just plain wrong. Anyway, I think that the
> love I still felt underneath all the anger (and my ability to pray
> about it) was what kept me open enough to finally listen and hear about
> false memories.
Okay, what interests me is the fact that you haven't told how you discovered
that your 'memories' were false...
>
> I can't get back the 6 years I and my children lost with my parents,
> but I can live the rest of my life better because of it. I do feel it
> has made me more understanding of some situations that other people
> find incomprehensible, like cults. I once would have thought I was way
> too strong-minded to be taken in by anything like this, but I now
> believe that knowledge of how easily our minds can be influenced is the
> best defense against being taken in, and I make sure to educate my kids
> about it whenever the opportunity arises. Our imaginations are very
> powerful, and our minds are more easily influenced than any of us want
> to admit. Hell, the advertising industry is built on the ability to
> influence. Then there's peer pressure--how many people have done
> things they never would do if it weren't for peer pressure (even rapes
> and killings)? Hitler, Jonestown, the Manson murders, and remember
> Patty Hearse? All of these involved mind control and the power to
> influence.
I would not deny that some have control over others...
keep rambling if you like, it is interesting stuff
Willis
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:398e...@post.newsfeeds.com...> <snipping again, follow thread >
>
> > > The two (three actually) different things are being discussed:
> > >
> > > 1) False memories "planted" by a therapist for various reasons which
is
> a
> > > kin to hyponosis and the power of suggestion. So receptive and
powerful
> > > that the patient starts to believe accept such suggestions as reality.
> >
> memory..
> > it can be peers, something you read.. something you've seen.. everything
> > you've experienced at one time or another can incorporated and become
part
> > of a memory.
>
*nods*
> I once had a very lucid dream and was an "eye-witness" to what you are
> talking about. The hotel in the dream came from a brief glance at an ad
> earlier that day. I was conscious as the dream was assembled out of
pieces
> of thought. Very bizarre experience. But I don't believe flashbacks can
be
> classified as such because, usually there is an intense emotional and
> physical element to it. That is the distinction I look for.
>
This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot be false
because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something that can
be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
Dee xxx
--
******but I can no longer
do the 'eggshell walk'-
there comes a time when
one has to speak out-or
self destruct
Dragon-June 2000*******
> > > The
> > > element of human nature is why double-blind research is more
creditable,
> > > because with knowing it the reasearch can influence the results. I
> believe
> > > that is what happens with "false memories".
>
> Actually that was a generally example of how easy it is to influence
others.
>
> > both the survivor community and the professional community are divided
> into
> > basically two camps.. those who believe recalled memories are accurate
and
> > reflect actual events and those who believe recalled memories can be
> > inaccurate..
>
> Do understand that I never said that recalled memories are 100% accurate
> because the same filtering process that creating the blocking is still in
> affect. Recalling memories not a simple thing. I think this is what we
are
> butting heads on - the black and white issue if the memories are true or
> false. Not that easy.
>
> > double-blind research is not possible.. you could not subject a control
> > group to the degree of trauma one assumes is necessary in order to
> 'repress'
> > a memory..
>
> Didn't mean to imply such research, the example was more a general
> observation.
>
> > > 2) Amnesia in various degrees are the mind's way of dealing with
intense
> > > trauma, childhood sexual abuse only be one of many forms of trauma.
One
> > > thing I never mentioned but most flashbacks are not just recalling
> memories
> > > but a "full" body experience. It is common to remember intense
> emotional
> > > and physical body sensations when recalling trauma. Personally, I
know
> how
> > > it feels to be raped as a child - it bloody torture. An important
> > > distinction when talking about recalling trauma in general, it the
> > > psycho-physical (mental/physical) response during recall. Rarely is
> it,"Oh
> > > yea, so-so rape me, what's for dinner". Many times you can't even
speak
> > > because the pain is so intense.
> >
> > Phoenix.. it sounds to me that you have always remembered what happened
to
> you.
>
> Absolutely *not*!... about five years ago I was under extreme emotional
> stress and the flood gates opened. I felt my ass ripping apart and my
> spirit tearing in pieces. Cried for hours on end. The pain was so
intense
> I dropped to the floor numerious times in agony, even past out a few
times.
> The assualt brought me to the point of suicide, which failed.
>
> Before that it was a vague single thought I might of been abused.
>
> There was one time I just started shaking from the "cold" (emotional
> coldness) and it literally came out of no where. Everything was okay then
I
> started to feel this strange coldness. The sensation kept building.
> Eventually the person I was with had 4 blankets on me, two of them wool
and
> I just kept shaking like I had a high fever. My health was fine, diet
okay,
> physical environment comfortable. The moment I started recalling memories
> from long ago these physical sensation disappeared.
>
> That is a description of a typical flashback.
>
> > I do know what you mean about recalling the abuse... Yes, I can feel
> > anxious, I can feel scared, confused.. I remember my body responding the
> to
> > sexual stimulus.. A normal reaction..
>
> Not normal for me... in my case it had nothing to do with a sexual
> experience. I was recalling absolute terror.
>
> Physical responses are "normal" for flashbacks but not "false memories"...
I
> cannot see anyway you can "plant" or suggest such a dramatic reaction into
> someone's memory. Also there are certain automatic responses few people
> have any conscious control over... like the fight or flight response,
> excellerated respiration, sweating, pupil dialation, vocal sounds, and so
> on. This is a very important distinguishing factor and is the key thing I
> look for.
>
> > but one that sometimes would bring
> > back feelings of guilt and shame when engaging in consentual sexual
> activity..
>
> The sexual activity was the catayst for the recalled memories. Something
> said, felt, heard, or done during the activity made the connection to the
> memory and it awaken into the present. The nature of flashbacks is you
> experience the traumatic event from the past in the present. *This is the
> distinction*: there is a physical and emotional element to the recalling
of
> traumatic events.
>
> > false memories.. of any kind, including those of a sexual abuse nature..
> can
> > occur anywhere.. therapy or a therapist is not necessary for such a
thing
> to occur..
>
> Granted.
>
> > all memory is falliable.. every story you tell.. everything you recall
> > something that happened previously, you are recalling a memory..
>
> You have created what is called circular logic. All memory is falliable
> therefore any recalled memory is falliable. You are making the
observation
> that because memory is fallablity and basing the premise that all recalled
> memories are falliable. Granted, it is a possiblity which should be taken
> into consideration.
>
> But it is wrong to state that all memory is falliable therefore any
recalled
> all memories ARE falliable. Because if that was true then you have just
> basically said no one knows what the "truth" is because their memories are
> suspect (falliable).
>
>
> I would like to point out I never claimed recalled memories are 100%
> absolutely accurate. Ask anyone who has a flashback and most are not so
> fast to say that their memories are the *whole* truth and nothing but the
> *truth*. Nor do I disagree with what is called "false memories".
>
> I want to make this point very clear... when recalling intense trauma that
> happened there are usually three kinds of memory being recalled: the
mental
> image, the emotional state, and the physical sensations. "False memories"
> are usually just the mental image. That is how I distinguish the two.
>
> There are TWO phenomena we are talking about - recalled memories and false
> memories. It is irresponsible to argue that there is only one.
>
> And that is my opinion and I am stickin to it. :)
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
> Donna, I have heard you say that you do not deny my experiences but...
>
> I find it ironic that you are "arguing" (as in debate) for your side
as you
> are against using the same premise.
>
> This is, "what happened to me, these are my experiences, therefore
they
> represent reality." That is, during therapy you experienced what are
called
> false memories and because that happen it represent your reality
This is true that what I experienced is *my* reality.
and as such
> you are then implying that because of your experiences that others
might me
> experiencing them too.
I have not said this. If you think that I imply this by discussing my
own experiences (which I have been requested here to do and have done),
how do you suggest I avoid such implications?
>
> One thing to play devil's advocate, and say, "Excuse me... but what
> about..." Personally, I have been the lone voice myself being "shot
down"
> by the majority. But to then conclude that those experiences
represent the
> only reality, which you keep reasserting, is wrong.
Would you please show me where I am asserting that my experiences are
the only reality? I sincerely do not know where I am doing this.
Agreed.
>
> 2) Do we remember everything mechanically? No... or else we would be
> unemotional automotons... just a camera. Everything is filter
through our
> preceptions of reality, our experiences, our other memories, our
feelings,
> and so on. Life in the present cannot exist separate from the past.
> Memories cannot be isolated, they are always in context of our
experiences.
> And the few who don't do this are truly living each day anew - the
last one
> no longer exists for them, literally. This is uncommon and most
people's
> memories are always in context.
Agreed.
>
> 3) Do we remember things objectively? No... if you have ever been
mad at
> someone then you will remember how that affected your memories. When
you
> had time to reflect isn't it amazing how what you remember changed
over
> time. Or have you had someone point out the "bigger picture". Do
you know
> people who are so affected by the emotions themselves that decades
later it
> still clouds their memories of events? I do.
Agreed.
>
> 4) Do we remember everything at once? I had one person recall a
rape to
> me, an adult experience and remembered quite a few details except the
> penetration. It literally was "missing" from the story. Sort of
like a
> missing note. Only when you try to connect the dots do you realize
it was
> missing. The person was oblivious to it and when I made the
connection for
> them, they cried in my arms.
>
This is certainly understandable. But if she had blocked out the
entire experience of being raped, there would be reason to seriously
question and corroborate any recovered memory. I always had a memory
of my brother crying at the kitchen table over our cat that had died,
asking my mom what he was crying about, and her telling me. She told
me recently that she always felt guilty that she made me promise not to
cry if she told me. I had no recollection of her saying that; however,
when she told me, I thought I had a vague memory of the exchange. Of
course, did I really remember it or just create the scene in my mind
after she told me about it?
I have no argument with the fact that memory is fragile, malleable, and
clouded by our emotions. Isn't that all the more reason to question
recovered memories of abuse since so much is at stake?
> 5) Do we recall everything in detail when asked about a memory?
No... every
> hear of something called the sub-conscious? Simple test... what do
you
> think about when I say apple and cinnamon. Dwell on it for a
moment. You
> were not aware of those memories before, were you? Most people say
the
> sub-conscious is this mysterious void but it is simple that which you
are
> not conscious of.
Again, no argument. And if I say picture an airplane going down a
runway with a clown standing on the tip of each wing. What happens? A
visual image comes to mind. What if that image were pictured
repeatedly in our minds, and others around us spoke about seeing this
same thing, and we read books about it, and we were told that people
who see such an image have been found by research to have problems just
like ours (whatever they might be), and that people often forget having
seen the airplane with the clowns until something triggers the memory.
Might we start to think that the image in our mind represents a real
event?
This is actually not all that uncommon. Sometimes people hear family
members tell repeated stories about events from years ago and become
convinced they were there or actually remember the event. Every time
someone hears and absorbs a story, it's pictured in the mind. Do that
often enough and it feels just like a real memory. This is why support
groups for people who have no abuse memories can be dangerous. By
hearing other's stories, powerful suggestions and images can begin.
And if someone has a few memories they think are recovered (but may
actually be false) and they tell about those images repeatedly, they
will become increasingly convinced that they are real --- and the
images will feel more like real memories with every telling.
I once read about a woman who was 100% heterosexual who was repeatedly
exposed to photos of lesbians engaging in sex. She said she began
dreaming about other women, and this convinced her she was bisexual. I
see this as similar to my own experience where I was repeated exposed
to thoughts about sexual abuse, had vague images and very strong
emotional and physical feelings come to me, and concluded that I was
sexually abused. It's like 1 + 1 = 5.
>
> Memory is like nature... it is impossible to look at species of
animal,
> plant, or insect, without taking a look at the whole - the
interconnections,
> the interdependency, the primary, secondary, or tertiary causes and
effects.
> The point, you cannot separate memory from the whole and make
conclusions
> based on your isolated observations. Memory is a spider's web with
so many
> interdependent factors that to look at one thread is to miss the fact
you
> are looking a web.
>
Agreed.
> Therefore use the above points to then conclude that recalled memories
> cannot be, or because memories are subjective they cannot represent
real
> events is wrong.
Agreed. I was talking to my sister-in-laws recently and they were
recalling childhood events, some of them abusive. I then told them
about something that had occurred in my childhood that I had not
recalled in a long time. I certainly don't think that their recalled
memories or mine do not represent real events.
To make the opposite claim that false memories cannot be
> because of the strength of recalled memories is also wrong.
>
> Neither side of this "argument" is right. Somewhere floating between
both
> side is the truth. But in a black and white world we want to have
> absolutes. To justify the medical treatment of people and the going
> scientific perception of reality. To justify our feelings, anger, and
> fears.
>
> Life is neither black or white but a multitude of grays.
>
Agreed.
And I'm sorry if anything I've said here has offended anyone.
Donna
> Peace, Phoenix
>
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> *** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> |
> * Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
> * SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
> * BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
> * SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
> * ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
> * MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
> * MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
> * 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
> |
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> **** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
Pat
> This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot be
false
> because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something that
can
> be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
>
> Dee xxx
>
Hi Dee...
I'm wondering how you know they are not false?
We are of a different mindset on this issue.. I, for one, do belive they can
be psychosomatic and just as powerful in intensity as the real thing..
probably more so..
What yardstick do you use to determine if they are real or not?
Phoenix
> > I once had a very lucid dream and was an "eye-witness" to what you are
> > talking about. The hotel in the dream came from a brief glance at an ad
> > earlier that day. I was conscious as the dream was assembled out of
> pieces
> > of thought. Very bizarre experience. But I don't believe flashbacks
can
> be
> > classified as such because, usually there is an intense emotional and
> > physical element to it. That is the distinction I look for.
> >
>
> This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot be
false
> because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something that
can
> be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
>
> Dee xxx
Dee... actually the term, I think it is a term, is psycho-physical, which
means mind *and* body experience. Psychosomatic is from the mind
My point concerning flashbacks it there are certain automatic responses
which are trigger which I don't even believe a deluded person can exhibit.
Thus by its nature is a flashback or partial recall.
Curious if anyone knows of any research in this area. People monitored for
vitals and a control test to see if a false memory can result in automatic
responses.
Phoenix
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dGyn5.2318$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
>
> Hi Donna...
>
> [...]
>
> > Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories (and
> > that's not always an easy determination),
>
> nods...
Actually there are some "signs"... one if you face whatever your flashback
is you are no longer scared of it. Literally, it fades like mist. And this
can happen within seconds. Also you get a mild sense of uphoria, at one
moment you are down and then you get this "everything will be okay" feeling.
Not mania like with someone who is bi-polar but being in a positive state.
A very common example of this experience is a good cry... you can be
miseriable, hurt, sad, but there comes a point when you can't cry anymore,
even if you try. The tears are gone. And you never will cry about that
experience okay. And before that "moment" you are down and once you past
that point, you feel better. And if you pay close attention to other people
who are upset you will literally see this change on their face.
Flashback and partial recall, imho, are the same thing but the scale and
degree of emotion are more intense.
>
> but I don't personally care
> > for the concept that our psyche holds memories from us until we are
> > ready to deal with them because it was a concept that contributed to my
> > believing my false memories for so long.
>
> This doesn't make them untrue...had I remembereed everything at once, I
> would have been completely overwhelmed and I would probably have killed
> myself...Goddess knows I came close enough to it just remembering bit by
> bit...
Well I almost succeed so personally can testify to that fact... almost three
months of continually bombardment of new sensation and memories. Talk about
who body experiences, pain felt in the tips of fingers. I can understand
what is meant by every cell in your body screaming. I have fallen off
chairs and "fainted" because the intensity of the memories were just too
strong for my consciousness to handle.
>
> >
> > I have been attacked for the opinion I am going to express here.....I
> > believe that if something comes into our minds (whether via hypnosis,
> > flashback, vision or whatever) and the information comes as a *total*
> > shock (and I don't mean a detail of some event, I mean a whole
> > experience), then it does not represent a real memory. Real memories
> > feel familiar, like "oh yeah! I had forgotten that." But I admit this
> > is just my opinion based on my own experience and not supported by any
> > scientific studies.
>
> You are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you are wrong...in my
> experience, real memories can be so traumatic that you forget for your
own
> good...real memories can be triggered by something, a word, a smell, a
> sound, an action and then a whole lot of stuff can come pouring out...this
> in my case was real stuff, verified by others...and this is not a detail,
> but a whole experience...
And that usually is another factor with flashbacks, they sort of come out of
the blue. Like someone sneaking up behind you and wacking in the back of
the head. The triggers can be so subtle but profound.
What I am describing is nothing more than the associations we make went
memories are stored. Blue suede shoes, crystal ball, ice cream... how many
memories were awakened with those words? It is just that painful memories
are more likely to be block from reaching the consciousness until we reach a
certain state of maturity and growth and then the "blocking" (I call it the
censor.) no longer works anymore. And BANG, whole experiences flood our
consciousness.
Just my opinion, but doesn't sound so complex to me.
Phoenix
> And I'm sorry if anything I've said here has offended anyone.
>
> Donna
Donna, you do understand why you trigger an emotional response by just
mentioning that the memories might be false?
Because part of the abuse, especially if it involves close family friends,
or family member included the denial... "It never happened." It is part of
the abuse. Just typing that give me a emotional charged response. So when
someone mentions your memories "might" be false you literally trigger a
defense mechanism which was created from without to deny it every happened
and from within to deal with what was happening.
I do believe your story is important, especially for the medical community
not to take recovered memories as the gospel truth. I believe this is the
real problem. If you talk to people who have had flashbacks and recalled
memories you will hear quite a bit of doubt. Sadly, your experience, the
"magic bullet, quick fix" mentality does more harm then good.
Also you will notice most people here are not so quick to dismiss your
experiences of false memories. It is because, I believe I can say this,
most people here know how it is to be constantly doubted and ridiculed.
Pat
> >
> > Donna
>
> mentioning that the memories might be false?
so? many things talked about freely in this newsgroup can trigger a
response.. some examples .. cutting, suicide ideation.. what makes the
issue of false memory and those how have fallen victim to this scam so much
worse..
> Because part of the abuse, especially if it involves close family friends,
> or family member included the denial... "It never happened." It is part
of
> the abuse. Just typing that give me a emotional charged response. So
when
> someone mentions your memories "might" be false you literally trigger a
> defense mechanism which was created from without to deny it every happened
> and from within to deal with what was happening.
your reaction could be from a true memory.. remembering abuse.. it could a
sympathic response to her pain.. it could be that deep down inside you also
suspect your memories might be false ..
> I do believe your story is important, especially for the medical community
> not to take recovered memories as the gospel truth. I believe this is the
> real problem.
and for the survivor community.. it's just as important to hear what she
has to say as it is to hear about the people who lie, with malice and
forethought, accusing people of doing harm when none occurred.. happens lots
especially in divorce cases..
> If you talk to people who have had flashbacks and recalled
> memories you will hear quite a bit of doubt. Sadly, your experience, the
> "magic bullet, quick fix" mentality does more harm then good.
i dont think donna is preaching a magic bullet or quick fix.. i've listened
to donna for some time now.. she is someone who has harmed by bad
therapeuatic practices.. she's not alone, by any means..
her story is just as valid an issue as the rest of us here.. in my opinion,
of course..
> Also you will notice most people here are not so quick to dismiss your
> experiences of false memories. It is because, I believe I can say this,
> most people here know how it is to be constantly doubted and ridiculed.
not accepting her story of her false memory .. insisting that she's been
suckered into the FMSF line of thinking... it's ridicule and doubting..
karmagrrl
...
> Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories (and
> that's not always an easy determination), but I don't personally care
> for the concept that our psyche holds memories from us until we are
> ready to deal with them because it was a concept that contributed to my
> believing my false memories for so long.
>
> I have been attacked for the opinion I am going to express here.....I
> believe that if something comes into our minds (whether via hypnosis,
> flashback, vision or whatever) and the information comes as a *total*
> shock (and I don't mean a detail of some event, I mean a whole
> experience), then it does not represent a real memory. Real memories
> feel familiar, like "oh yeah! I had forgotten that." But I admit this
> is just my opinion based on my own experience and not supported by any
> scientific studies.
>
> Donna
in my case, the "shock" part came in when i realized "yeah, i had forgotten
that ... oh my god, HOW could i have forgotten something like that?!" i've
never remembered anything that felt like a total shock, but i *did* feel
shocked that i'd forgotten. took me a while to sort out my feelings on that
issue. so there *is* shock, but not the "wow, where did that come from?"
kind of shock. there are a lot of studies about "traumatic amnesia" and
"dissociative amnesia" out there. i've learned that my kind of forgetting
is more along the lines of, "i am going to forget this ever happened
because i can't reconcile this awful experience with my daily life, and i
have to get up and act normal in front of everybody and go to school
tomorrow." a way of protecting oneself against both the shock of the abuse,
and the shock of remembering it in the short term. those memories return
with the "i had forgotten that, but how could i have forgotten something
like that??" shock, disbelief and self-questioning.
not sure if you'll get attacked for that opinion you express above ...
maybe a year or two ago it would have bothered me, but i've had time to
figure out why i felt so shocked about what had happened to me. i have so
many "oh yeah! i remember that ... oh, no ... nah, that couldn't have
happened ... but i remember it ... but why did i ever forget?!" memories.
i'm glad you're able to discuss this issue from an "I" level, it really
helps.
please remember, as much as abuse survivors need to maintain healthy
skepticism that some of our memories may not be real, you need to maintain
the same healthy skepticism, that some of your memories may be real. and
seek the support that you need, in either case.
peace,
susan
Phoenix
Pat I am going to point out a few things...
"Pat" <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8nmm06$1b0c$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:399ed865$1...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> > *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
> >
> > > And I'm sorry if anything I've said here has offended anyone.
> > >
> > > Donna
> >
> > Donna, you do understand why you trigger an emotional response by just
> > mentioning that the memories might be false?
>
>
> so? many things talked about freely in this newsgroup can trigger a
> response.. some examples .. cutting, suicide ideation.. what makes the
> issue of false memory and those how have fallen victim to this scam so
much
> worse..
Where is there any mention of comparison or judgement in my statement?
I was simply pointing out that just implying false memories can trigger an
emotional response for the reason I explained below...
> > Because part of the abuse, especially if it involves close family
friends,
> > or family member included the denial... "It never happened." It is part
of
> > the abuse. Just typing that give me a emotional charged response. So
when
> > someone mentions your memories "might" be false you literally trigger a
> > defense mechanism which was created from without to deny it every
happened
> > and from within to deal with what was happening.
>
> your reaction could be from a true memory.. remembering abuse.. it could a
> sympathic response to her pain.. it could be that deep down inside you
also
> suspect your memories might be false ..
You are playing the same bs game that you are accusing "corrupt" therapists
of doing. That last sentence implies a preconceive notion that my "emotion"
response "proves" the memories are false. Doesn't matter how you phrased it
the meaning is quite clear.
> > I do believe your story is important, especially for the medical
community
> > not to take recovered memories as the gospel truth. I believe this is
the
> > real problem.
>
> and for the survivor community.. it's just as important to hear what she
> has to say as it is to hear about the people who lie, with malice and
> forethought, accusing people of doing harm when none occurred.. happens
lots
> especially in divorce cases..
This is a completely different issue... you are describing downright lying,
a conscious action of deception.
For the survivor community it is a "buyer beware" issue. That is a naive
patient is quite vulnerable to corrupt, to dishonest, to ignorant, and to
abusive therapist.
> > If you talk to people who have had flashbacks and recalled
> > memories you will hear quite a bit of doubt. Sadly, your experience,
the
> > "magic bullet, quick fix" mentality does more harm then good.
>
>
> i dont think donna is preaching a magic bullet or quick fix.. i've
listened
> to donna for some time now.. she is someone who has harmed by bad
> therapeuatic practices.. she's not alone, by any means..
>
> her story is just as valid an issue as the rest of us here.. in my
opinion,
> of course..
Okay let's clarify... her experience was the result of a "magic bullet,
quick fix" mentality - recovered memories are the truth, let's fix it...
next.
> > Also you will notice most people here are not so quick to dismiss your
> > experiences of false memories. It is because, I believe I can say this,
> > most people here know how it is to be constantly doubted and ridiculed.
>
> not accepting her story of her false memory .. insisting that she's been
> suckered into the FMSF line of thinking... it's ridicule and doubting..
What has happened is that the issue of false memories has been politize and
the two opposing sides see the other side as the "enemy" and as such want to
attack them because their view oppose them. Making it into an either/or
argument. And it seems, IMO, that neither side, will or wants to admit both
views are valid. Both sides need to be researched. But in it is in neither
side's interest to make "peace". That is why when the opposing side (Donna)
enters the other camp (aar) they are attack for being one of "them".
From what I gather, don't personally know, but have seen a few people
commenting on it, that Donna came charging in and denied the right of any
one else to say their recovered memories were real. That is, because she
had false memories everyone else had to. And they retaliated. Now that she
is more civil, saying this is *my* experience, I hear more support than
ridicule.
Willis
Luckily I am having some of my experiences verified for me by others, but I
ask you how do you know that anything you do is real...you just do right? I
am sure that I already pointed out my yardstick below...however, I cannot
from experience know what a false memory feels like, nor can you know what a
real one feels like so never the twain and all that...I have already stated
that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen on their
own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
Dee xxx
Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8nmhbg$2idk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:MPyn5.2339$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot be
> false
> > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something that
> can
> > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> >
> > Dee xxx
> >
>
>
Willis
yep, I know what the terms are, I believe I used them correctly...my
reaction is body and mind and real, and not 'from the mind'...maybe
psychosomatic has a slightly different general usage here...but what I don't
believe can be faked are the all out physical reactions that occur...
Dee xxx
Phoenix <som...@home.com> wrote in message
news:399e...@post.newsfeeds.com...
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
> > > I once had a very lucid dream and was an "eye-witness" to what you are
> > > talking about. The hotel in the dream came from a brief glance at an
ad
> > > earlier that day. I was conscious as the dream was assembled out of
> > pieces
> > > of thought. Very bizarre experience. But I don't believe flashbacks
> can
> > be
> > > classified as such because, usually there is an intense emotional and
> > > physical element to it. That is the distinction I look for.
> > >
> >
> > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot be
> false
> > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something that
> can
> > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> >
> > Dee xxx
>
> Dee... actually the term, I think it is a term, is psycho-physical, which
> means mind *and* body experience. Psychosomatic is from the mind
>
> My point concerning flashbacks it there are certain automatic responses
> which are trigger which I don't even believe a deluded person can exhibit.
> Thus by its nature is a flashback or partial recall.
>
> Curious if anyone knows of any research in this area. People monitored
for
> vitals and a control test to see if a false memory can result in automatic
> responses.
>
Pat
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:w8Ln5.3419$UP2.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
> Hi Pat...
>
> Luckily I am having some of my experiences verified for me by others, but
I
> ask you how do you know that anything you do is real...you just do right?
I
> am sure that I already pointed out my yardstick below...however, I cannot
> from experience know what a false memory feels like, nor can you know what
a
> real one feels like so never the twain and all that...
excuse me?? I knew all too well what a real memory of being raped as a
young child feels like.. I was there..
> I have already stated
> that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen on
their
> own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
Lived it.. from a birth father who liked to play with knives and fire to a
step-father that liked to have sex with young girls..
Pat
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:w8Ln5.3419$UP2.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
> Hi Pat...
>
> Luckily I am having some of my experiences verified for me by others, but
I
> ask you how do you know that anything you do is real...you just do right?
I never "repressed" memories of what happened to me.. Not the knives.. not
the whuppings.. not the rapes..
My mother's back is scared from the top of her neck down to her spine..
there remains buckshot lodged right up against her spinal cord.. 50 years
since he shot her there's still a chance she could become paralized in an
instant... it was a year before I was born.. I always knew his meaness..
To this day, I can feel the blade of his knife at my throat..
I confronted my step-father in front of my mother, sister, and brother one
night coming home from the drive-in movie.. He told mom how much he loved
me.. he said he wanted to marry me..
> I
> am sure that I already pointed out my yardstick below...however, I cannot
> from experience know what a false memory feels like, nor can you know what
a
> real one feels like so never the twain and all that...
What I do know, is that I could take my 'real' memories and search for
more.. It's not hard to something simple.. like a torn bathing suit and make
it into something else.. like abuse..
I'm using Donna's example there simply because.. well, it triggers memories
of what happened with me.. My step-dad like me to wear dresses all the
time.. made access a little easier.. we had a dog at the time that had a
fetish for panties.. the ones the dog had chewed holes in where the ones he
prefered i wear... i could very easily forget about the dog and say that he
put those holes in my panties or made me put holes in my panties... most
likely.. it was tiny holes made by the dog made larger by his fingers when
we went to watch the planes land at the airport..
> I have already stated
> that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen on
their
> own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
I agree they dont happen on their own... I do, however, beleive that a
person can develop false memories on their own (without the help of a
therapist) books, movies, experiences from other people.. can and often do
contribute..
as in Donna's case.. she wanted so much to support the sister she loves..
it's why she went into therapy.. why she did the guided imagery thing.. she
wanted to validate what her sister was remember.. what she didn't remember..
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Pat...
>
> Luckily I am having some of my experiences verified for me by others,
but I
> ask you how do you know that anything you do is real...you just do
right? I
> am sure that I already pointed out my yardstick below...however, I
cannot
> from experience know what a false memory feels like, nor can you know
what a
> real one feels like so never the twain and all that...
Now I'm confused. Doesn't everyone know what a real memory feels like?
I have already stated
> that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen
on their
> own,
Does any memory happen on its own? Isn't there always something
external that puts a thought into mind and then a memory results?
Donna
but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
>
> Dee xxx
>
> Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8nmhbg$2idk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
> >
> > "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:MPyn5.2339$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it
cannot be
> > false
> > > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not
something that
> > can
> > > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> > >
> > > Dee xxx
> > >
> >
> >
> > Hi Dee...
> >
> > I'm wondering how you know they are not false?
> >
> > We are of a different mindset on this issue.. I, for one, do belive
they
> can
> > be psychosomatic and just as powerful in intensity as the real
thing..
> > probably more so..
> >
> > What yardstick do you use to determine if they are real or not?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
you are
> > > talking about. The hotel in the dream came from a brief glance
at an ad
> > > earlier that day. I was conscious as the dream was assembled out
of
> > pieces
> > > of thought. Very bizarre experience. But I don't believe
flashbacks
> can
> > be
> > > classified as such because, usually there is an intense emotional
and
> > > physical element to it. That is the distinction I look for.
> > >
> >
> > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot
be
> false
> > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something
that
> can
> > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> >
> > Dee xxx
>
which
> means mind *and* body experience. Psychosomatic is from the mind
>
responses
> which are trigger which I don't even believe a deluded person can
exhibit.
> Thus by its nature is a flashback or partial recall.
>
> Curious if anyone knows of any research in this area. People
monitored for
> vitals and a control test to see if a false memory can result in
automatic
> responses.
Since a person experiencing false memories usually believes they
represent real memories, the responses are the same. When I
experienced mine, I truly believed my father had abused me. There was
no need to "fake" my responses.
Are you suggesting that unless a person actually experiences something,
they will not respond emotionally or physically? What if you were
watching horrific footage of events that occurred in the holocaust.
Might your heart start to beat rapidly? Might you feel sick to your
stomach, or feel something approaching actual fear? Do these responses
mean that you experienced the holocaust? I don't think so.
Donna
>
> Peace, Phoenix
>
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> *** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> |
> * Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
> * SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
> * BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
> * SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
> * ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
> * MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
> * MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
> * 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
> |
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> **** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
What are your credentials to judge a real memory from a false memory?
Are you suggesting that this criteria you have theorized can be used
and applied to everyone? That if a person has an emotional or physical
response to an image, it must represent a real memory? That you can
make a judgment based on this theory better than the person
experiencing the memory himself or herself?
I have met or spoken on the phone to probably 100 people who have
experienced false memories. None of them would say they experienced
only a mental image with no emotional or physical response. Where are
you getting this?
Donna
In article <MPyn5.2339$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net>,
gogi...@my-deja.com
How I came to realize that my memories were false was in opening up to
the concept of false memories and reading about how they can occur. I
first saw a movie based on the true story of Paul Ingram, a police
officer who was accused of sexual abuse by his daughters after they
attended a "Christian" weekend retreat (during which the camp counselor
said she was receiving a sign from God that the girls had been abused --
or something to that effect). Paul knew his daughters would never
make up such a story, so he talked to his Pastor and a therapist who
convinced him that he must be repressing the memories of what he had
done. He (something like myself) began earnestly trying to recover
memories. And he did. And he was so convinced he was guilty and
should pay for his sins, he confessed in court. In the meantime, the
accusations of his daughters got more and more bizaare (ritual abuse,
dead babies etc,) and the police could find no physical evidence of any
of it. So they called in cult specialist, Richard Ofshe. Mr. Ofshe
spoke to the girls and Paul and began investigating. Because he is a
cult expert, he is familiar with mind control and influence. He began
to suspect that Paul was innocent, and that the girls had gone through
some kind of mind control exercise at the Christian retreat. To test
his theory, he made up an abuse story (I think it was that Paul's son
had been present during one abuse episode). He checked with the
daughters that this had never occurred. Then he told Paul that the
daughters had said that it had occurred and asked if he could remember
it. Paul said he would "work on" recalling the memory. He did
and "recovered" it, complete with details of things that were said and
done, etc.
Anyway, the story haunted me and I began to get this uncomfortable,
anxious feeling about my own memories (and my sister's memories which
were much more bizarre than my own). I went to the library and checked
out a number of books on the false memory phenomenon. I'll never
forget how my hands shook as I checked them out. Anyway, the more I
read, the more clear it became what had happened. That's really all
there is to it. Before I checked out those books (in 1996), I would
not even entertain the idea that false memories were possible. My mind
was completely closed. When I opened my mind and really listened to
what some experts were saying, everything made sense. It is difficult
to explain how wrong things felt when I believed, and how right they
feel now. When I believed, there was always this nagging sense of the
world being slightly off-kilter. Especially when I prayed, it was like
I needed to ask the Lord for something but I wasn't sure what in the
heck to ask for. So I prayed for His will, and IMO He granted it.
Donna
In article <pLyn5.2331$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net>,
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Donna...
Hi Dee
I'm so sorry you came close to killing yourself, and I'm sorry you were
abused.
Donna
>
> [...]
>
> > Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories
(and
> > that's not always an easy determination),
>
> nods...
>
> but I don't personally care
> > for the concept that our psyche holds memories from us until we are
> > ready to deal with them because it was a concept that contributed
to my
> > believing my false memories for so long.
>
> This doesn't make them untrue...had I remembereed everything at once,
I
> would have been completely overwhelmed and I would probably have
killed
> myself...Goddess knows I came close enough to it just remembering bit
by
> bit..
>
> >
> > I have been attacked for the opinion I am going to express
here.....I
> > believe that if something comes into our minds (whether via
hypnosis,
> > flashback, vision or whatever) and the information comes as a
*total*
> > shock (and I don't mean a detail of some event, I mean a whole
> > experience), then it does not represent a real memory. Real
memories
> > feel familiar, like "oh yeah! I had forgotten that." But I admit
this
> > is just my opinion based on my own experience and not supported by
any
> > scientific studies.
>
> You are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you are wrong...in
my
> experience, real memories can be so traumatic that you forget for
your own
> good...real memories can be triggered by something, a word, a smell, a
> sound, an action and then a whole lot of stuff can come pouring
out...this
> in my case was real stuff, verified by others...and this is not a
detail,
> but a whole experience...
>
> Dee xxx
> --
> ******but I can no longer
> do the 'eggshell walk'-
> there comes a time when
> one has to speak out-or
> self destruct
> Dragon-June 2000*******
> >
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
>
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dGyn5.2318$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
> >
> > Hi Donna...
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories
(and
> > > that's not always an easy determination),
> >
> > nods...
>
> Actually there are some "signs"... one if you face whatever your
flashback
> is you are no longer scared of it. Literally, it fades like mist.
And this
> can happen within seconds. Also you get a mild sense of uphoria, at
one
> moment you are down and then you get this "everything will be okay"
feeling.
> Not mania like with someone who is bi-polar but being in a positive
state.
I don't think these are signs of memories being real, but I am *not*
saying that they are signs of memories being false either. They are
feelings that I experienced with false memories though (and I'm sure
they are feelings that are experienced with real memories). I remember
feeling strong, like I had no fear. It was like "wow, I survived
*that.* I can survive anything.") I felt euphoria at times, even
strangely enough, after confronting my parents at times.
>
> A very common example of this experience is a good cry... you can be
> miseriable, hurt, sad, but there comes a point when you can't cry
anymore,
> even if you try. The tears are gone. And you never will cry about
that
> experience okay. And before that "moment" you are down and once you
past
> that point, you feel better. And if you pay close attention to other
people
> who are upset you will literally see this change on their face.
Again, these feelings are common with false memories, especially people
like myself who live with them for a number of years. You can't cry
for years about something and function. So you have to come to terms
with it at some level. And although I had the nagging feeling of
things being "off" somehow, I did reach a point where I decided that
the truth (of the abuse) would be finally known in heaven. My father
would not be able to continue to deny it. So I found a way to feel
some peace, and it was a feeling full of relief and even a mind
euphoria (after so much pain). But again, I'm sure this process is
true with real memories. It's just not something you can use as a
method to determine real from false memories.
IMHO, you should be careful to state that these are your opinions prior
to making the statements (rather than at the end). You have expressed
these opinions many times, and they seem to come across as having some
authority behind them. There is nothing in scientific proof to support
these opinions. In fact, most science says people tend to remember the
very good and the very bad experineces in their lives *more* than other
experiences. There are no holocaust survivors that forgot their
experiences that I know of. Contrary to popular belief, war veterans
have trouble forgetting the horror, not trouble remembering it
(although there was one man who had detailed stories of "repressed"
memories from Vietnam; but when investigated he had never served in the
military). Studies of kids who have witnessed a parent's murder show
that they remember these experiences all too well.
Donna
>
> Peace, Phoenix
>
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ****
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> *** Newsfeeds.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> |
> * Anonymous posting server! | * Totally Uncensored!
> * SUPER Servers! | * Over 80,000 Newsgroups!
> * BINARIES ONLY Servers! | * 16 seperate Newsgroup Servers!
> * SPAM FILTERED Server! | * Instant access!
> * ADULT ONLY Server! | * Multiple OC 3's and OC 12's!
> * MP3 ONLY Server! | * 99% Article Completion!
> * MULTIMEDIA ONLY Server! | * Months of Retention!
> * 7 UNCENSORED Newsgroup Servers | * Lightning FAST downloads!
> |
> http://www.newsfeeds.com | http://www.newsfeeds.com
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> **** Point your newsreader to post.newsfeeds.com ****
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
duplicate posts).
I'm going on vacation for a week. Camping, a couple dinner shows,
seeing "Savage Garden" in concert, going on a Tall Ship ride, an
amusement park for the kids, and maybe rent a dune buggy. Should be
fun. See ya!
Donna
In article <399ed48c$1...@post.newsfeeds.com>,
"Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
Phoenix
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8np3uq$t5t$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <399e...@post.newsfeeds.com>,
> "Phoenix" <som...@home.com> wrote:
> > *** post for free via your newsreader at post.newsfeeds.com ***
> >
> > > > I once had a very lucid dream and was an "eye-witness" to what
> you are
> > > > talking about. The hotel in the dream came from a brief glance
> at an ad
> > > > earlier that day. I was conscious as the dream was assembled out
> of
> > > pieces
> > > > of thought. Very bizarre experience. But I don't believe
> flashbacks
> > can
> > > be
> > > > classified as such because, usually there is an intense emotional
> and
> > > > physical element to it. That is the distinction I look for.
> > > >
> > >
> > > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it cannot
> be
> > false
> > > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not something
> that
> > can
> > > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> > >
> > > Dee xxx
> >
> > Dee... actually the term, I think it is a term, is psycho-physical,
> which
> > means mind *and* body experience. Psychosomatic is from the mind
> >
> > My point concerning flashbacks it there are certain automatic
> responses
> > which are trigger which I don't even believe a deluded person can
> exhibit.
> > Thus by its nature is a flashback or partial recall.
> >
> > Curious if anyone knows of any research in this area. People
> monitored for
> > vitals and a control test to see if a false memory can result in
> automatic
> > responses.
>
>
> Since a person experiencing false memories usually believes they
> represent real memories, the responses are the same. When I
> experienced mine, I truly believed my father had abused me. There was
> no need to "fake" my responses.
>
> Are you suggesting that unless a person actually experiences something,
> they will not respond emotionally or physically? What if you were
> watching horrific footage of events that occurred in the holocaust.
> Might your heart start to beat rapidly? Might you feel sick to your
> stomach, or feel something approaching actual fear? Do these responses
> mean that you experienced the holocaust? I don't think so.
Donna the feelings are not that "distant"... If you haven't seen "First
Blood" with Stalone rent it. There is the scene where Stalone is being
shave and he goes back in time to when he was tortured in Vietnam. They
keep switch back and forth. That is the *initial* stage of a full blown
flashback.
If I took your example of watching the footage of the holocaust as a trigger
for a real flashback memory. Then the person would start to loose track of
time... you would not know exactly where you are, then and now merge into
one time. You would start to flip back and forth from then and now. And
visually you would be seeing what happened to you, the abuser's face, the
room you were in, your clothes, etc. And if you are in a full blown
flashback, even a partial one, you are not sitting calmly on a couch, or
chair, and there is no way you are going to be talking... you are in gut
wrenching pain, odds are you are rolling on the floor because you cannot
stand.
Observing this as an "outsider" you think the person has just gone crazy.
So it is not as simple, as oh, this is making me sick response. No calm, "I
think I was abuse." You would be wailing in pain.
As for the emotional state... the only way I can describe it as that split
second when you wake from a nightmare and you not quite sure if it is a
dream or reality. With a flashback, the terror then extends as you remain
in a state of limbo. Reality starts "changing" on you but you are half-ass
conscious of it changing.
Anybody describe a false memory like that? I doubt it. That is what is
meant by a whole body experience and anyone who has experienced knows what I
am describing.
Willis
apologies...I remember now that whilst you were abused, your son
wasn't...again, my deepest apologies if I caused you distress..
Dee xxx
Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8noops$21g8$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
>
>
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:w8Ln5.3419$UP2.3...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > Hi Pat...
> >
> > Luckily I am having some of my experiences verified for me by others,
but
> I
> > ask you how do you know that anything you do is real...you just do
right?
> I
> > am sure that I already pointed out my yardstick below...however, I
cannot
> > from experience know what a false memory feels like, nor can you know
what
> a
> > real one feels like so never the twain and all that...
>
>
> excuse me?? I knew all too well what a real memory of being raped as a
> young child feels like.. I was there..
>
>
> > I have already stated
> > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen on
> their
> > own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
>
>
> Lived it.. from a birth father who liked to play with knives and fire to a
> step-father that liked to have sex with young girls..
>
>
>
>
>
> >
Willis
Hi Pat...
> What I do know, is that I could take my 'real' memories and search for
> more.. It's not hard to something simple.. like a torn bathing suit and
make
> it into something else.. like abuse..
we can all do this...whilst it wouldn't make a bathing suit proof of abuse,
there is already abuse there...is this not different to false memories?
Dee xxx
>
> I'm using Donna's example there simply because.. well, it triggers
memories
> of what happened with me.. My step-dad like me to wear dresses all the
> time.. made access a little easier.. we had a dog at the time that had a
> fetish for panties.. the ones the dog had chewed holes in where the ones
he
> prefered i wear... i could very easily forget about the dog and say that
he
> put those holes in my panties or made me put holes in my panties... most
> likely.. it was tiny holes made by the dog made larger by his fingers when
> we went to watch the planes land at the airport..
>
>
>
> > I have already stated
> > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen on
> their
> > own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
>
> I agree they dont happen on their own... I do, however, beleive that a
> person can develop false memories on their own (without the help of a
> therapist) books, movies, experiences from other people.. can and often
do
> contribute..
>
> as in Donna's case.. she wanted so much to support the sister she loves..
> it's why she went into therapy.. why she did the guided imagery thing..
she
> wanted to validate what her sister was remember.. what she didn't
remember..
>
>
> >
Willis
[...]>
> Now I'm confused. Doesn't everyone know what a real memory feels like?
Obviously not, or there wouldn't be false ones that people believed were
true...
>
>
> I have already stated
> > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't happen
> on their
> > own,
>
> Does any memory happen on its own? Isn't there always something
> external that puts a thought into mind and then a memory results?
No, something external will jog a memory that is already there...
Dee xxx
>
> Donna
>
>
> but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
> >
> > Dee xxx
> >
> > Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:8nmhbg$2idk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
> > >
> > > "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > news:MPyn5.2339$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > > > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it
> cannot be
> > > false
> > > > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not
> something that
> > > can
> > > > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> > > >
> > > > Dee xxx
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Dee...
> > >
> > > I'm wondering how you know they are not false?
> > >
> > > We are of a different mindset on this issue.. I, for one, do belive
> they
> > can
> > > be psychosomatic and just as powerful in intensity as the real
> thing..
> > > probably more so..
> > >
> > > What yardstick do you use to determine if they are real or not?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Willis
Dee xxx
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8np5ls$v20$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <dGyn5.2318$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net>,
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Donna...
>
> Hi Dee
>
> I'm so sorry you came close to killing yourself, and I'm sorry you were
> abused.
>
> Donna
>
>
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > Only you can determine if your flashbacks represent real memories
> (and
> > > that's not always an easy determination),
> >
> > nods...
> >
> > but I don't personally care
> > > for the concept that our psyche holds memories from us until we are
> > > ready to deal with them because it was a concept that contributed
> to my
> > > believing my false memories for so long.
> >
> > This doesn't make them untrue...had I remembereed everything at once,
> I
> > would have been completely overwhelmed and I would probably have
> killed
> > myself...Goddess knows I came close enough to it just remembering bit
> by
> > bit..
> >
> > >
> > > I have been attacked for the opinion I am going to express
> here.....I
> > > believe that if something comes into our minds (whether via
> hypnosis,
> > > flashback, vision or whatever) and the information comes as a
> *total*
> > > shock (and I don't mean a detail of some event, I mean a whole
> > > experience), then it does not represent a real memory. Real
> memories
> > > feel familiar, like "oh yeah! I had forgotten that." But I admit
> this
> > > is just my opinion based on my own experience and not supported by
> any
> > > scientific studies.
> >
> > You are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you are wrong...in
> my
> > experience, real memories can be so traumatic that you forget for
> your own
> > good...real memories can be triggered by something, a word, a smell, a
> > sound, an action and then a whole lot of stuff can come pouring
> out...this
> > in my case was real stuff, verified by others...and this is not a
> detail,
> > but a whole experience...
> >
> > Dee xxx
> > --
> > ******but I can no longer
> > do the 'eggshell walk'-
> > there comes a time when
> > one has to speak out-or
> > self destruct
> > Dragon-June 2000*******
> > >
> > > Donna
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > it doesnt, however, necessarily reflect the accuracy of events..
> > > only as i
> > > > > recall them..
> > > > >
> > > > I think Pat, that we are talking about two different things...we
> > > started off
> > > > talking about events which did not happen...the fact that
> remembered
> > > events
> > > > take on a different shape due to time or perception doesn't mean
> that
> > > they
> > > > didn't happen...
> > > >
> > > > Dee xxx
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
Willis
thanks for this....I am sorry that you and your family had to go through
something so horrific...
Dee xxx
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8np5eq$uvk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Pat
<gogi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8ocnp6$vhd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <t8ho5.6619$UP2.8...@news1.cableinet.net>,
> "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Pat...
> >
> > > What I do know, is that I could take my 'real' memories and search
> for
> > > more.. It's not hard to something simple.. like a torn bathing suit
> and
> > make
> > > it into something else.. like abuse..
> >
> > we can all do this...whilst it wouldn't make a bathing suit proof of
> abuse,
> > there is already abuse there...is this not different to false
> memories?
> >
> > Dee xxx
>
>
> If I am understanding Pat correctly, I think she is saying that she
> could "find" more memories if she tried; but they wouldn't necessarily
> be real memories, even though she has all too many real abuse memories.
I dont know if "find" is exactly right.. I think 'fill in the missing bits
and pieces' to make the story flow more smoothly fits a bit better.. There
are missing bits and pieces.. sometimes I see something or hear something
and I think it's me, or maybe something like that happened.. like today,
watching a movie on tv.. watching the kissing game.. i knew what would
happen next.. i knew when he put her bike in the car to give her a ride
home.. so similiar.. it could easily have been me..
> This is an important and sad point. Many people who have experienced
> false memories were really abused. They already had that to deal
> with. Then they experience false memories -- sometimes involving
> people they thought loved them, sometimes of much more severe abuse
> than what occurred --- which only compounds their problems.
last week on tv (i listen to lots of tv while i work), on A&E's Unexplained,
they had the story of a young woman who was multiple.. was abused.. who
under therapy 'recovered' memories of satanic abuse.. her final comments
were.. not only was she dealing with the ramifications of being abused in
her childhood but she had the false memories to deal with as well..
> Donna
pat
>
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > I'm using Donna's example there simply because.. well, it triggers
> > memories
> > > of what happened with me.. My step-dad like me to wear dresses all
> the
> > > time.. made access a little easier.. we had a dog at the time that
> had a
> > > fetish for panties.. the ones the dog had chewed holes in where the
> ones
> > he
> > > prefered i wear... i could very easily forget about the dog and
> say that
> > he
> > > put those holes in my panties or made me put holes in my
> panties... most
> > > likely.. it was tiny holes made by the dog made larger by his
> fingers when
> > > we went to watch the planes land at the airport..
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have already stated
> > > > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't
> happen on
> > > their
> > > > own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse
> happens?
> > >
> > > I agree they dont happen on their own... I do, however, beleive
> that a
> > > person can develop false memories on their own (without the help of
> a
> > > therapist) books, movies, experiences from other people.. can and
> often
> > do
> > > contribute..
> > >
> > > as in Donna's case.. she wanted so much to support the sister she
> loves..
> > > it's why she went into therapy.. why she did the guided imagery
> thing..
> > she
> > > wanted to validate what her sister was remember.. what she didn't
> > remember..
> > >
> > >
> > > >
Pat
> Donna
pat
> > > > I have already stated
> > > > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't
> happen on
> > > their
> > > > own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse
> happens?
> > >
> > > I agree they dont happen on their own... I do, however, beleive
> that a
> > > person can develop false memories on their own (without the help of
> a
> > > therapist) books, movies, experiences from other people.. can and
> often
> > do
> > > contribute..
> > >
> > > as in Donna's case.. she wanted so much to support the sister she
> loves..
> > > it's why she went into therapy.. why she did the guided imagery
> thing..
> > she
> > > wanted to validate what her sister was remember.. what she didn't
> > remember..
> > >
> > >
> > > >
gogi...@my-deja.com
Yes, absolutely.
Donna
I doubt it. That is what is
> meant by a whole body experience and anyone who has experienced knows
what I
> am describing.
>
> Peace, Phoenix
>
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Donna
> [...]>
> > Now I'm confused. Doesn't everyone know what a real memory feels
like?
>
> Obviously not, or there wouldn't be false ones that people believed
were
> true...
> >
> >
> > > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't
happen
> > on their
> > > own,
> >
> > external that puts a thought into mind and then a memory results?
>
> No, something external will jog a memory that is already there...
>
> Dee xxx
> >
And something external can cause a false memory.
Donna
> > Donna
> >
> >
> > but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse happens?
> > >
> > > Dee xxx
> > >
> > > Pat <pat...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:8nmhbg$2idk$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
> > > >
> > > > "Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > > > news:MPyn5.2339$UP2.2...@news1.cableinet.net...
> > > > > This is a very imortant point...when I flashback, I know it
> > cannot be
> > > > false
> > > > > because my whole body and mind get involved...this is not
> > something that
> > > > can
> > > > > be faked, nor do I believe is it psychosomatic...
> > > > >
> > > > > Dee xxx
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Dee...
> > > >
> > > > I'm wondering how you know they are not false?
> > > >
> > > > We are of a different mindset on this issue.. I, for one, do
belive
> > they
> > > can
> > > > be psychosomatic and just as powerful in intensity as the real
> > thing..
> > > > probably more so..
> > > >
> > > > What yardstick do you use to determine if they are real or not?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
gogi...@my-deja.com
"Willis" <cwi...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Hi Pat...
>
> > What I do know, is that I could take my 'real' memories and search
for
> > more.. It's not hard to something simple.. like a torn bathing suit
and
> make
> > it into something else.. like abuse..
>
> we can all do this...whilst it wouldn't make a bathing suit proof of
abuse,
> there is already abuse there...is this not different to false
memories?
>
> Dee xxx
If I am understanding Pat correctly, I think she is saying that she
could "find" more memories if she tried; but they wouldn't necessarily
be real memories, even though she has all too many real abuse memories.
This is an important and sad point. Many people who have experienced
false memories were really abused. They already had that to deal
with. Then they experience false memories -- sometimes involving
people they thought loved them, sometimes of much more severe abuse
than what occurred --- which only compounds their problems.
Donna
>
> >
> > I'm using Donna's example there simply because.. well, it triggers
> memories
> > of what happened with me.. My step-dad like me to wear dresses all
the
> > time.. made access a little easier.. we had a dog at the time that
had a
> > fetish for panties.. the ones the dog had chewed holes in where the
ones
> he
> > prefered i wear... i could very easily forget about the dog and
say that
> he
> > put those holes in my panties or made me put holes in my
panties... most
> > likely.. it was tiny holes made by the dog made larger by his
fingers when
> > we went to watch the planes land at the airport..
> >
> >
> >
> > > I have already stated
> > > that I do believe that false memories occur, IMHO they don't
happen on
> > their
> > > own, but that is just my opinion...do you believe that abuse
happens?
> >
> > I agree they dont happen on their own... I do, however, beleive
that a
> > person can develop false memories on their own (without the help of
a
> > therapist) books, movies, experiences from other people.. can and
often
> do
> > contribute..
> >
> > as in Donna's case.. she wanted so much to support the sister she
loves..
> > it's why she went into therapy.. why she did the guided imagery
thing..
> she
> > wanted to validate what her sister was remember.. what she didn't
> remember..
> >
> >
> > >