Hang in there, Charlie
lucy_va...@my-deja.com
told to choose. You are being told that to love one person means you can't
love another and it looks to me like people are using emotional blackmail and
the normally very effective tag of having been abused as a reason for what
they are trying to do to you.
Well, you do what you need to do, Charlie. Either way. If you feel that the
only way to keep your 'friends' is to dump me, you know I'll understand that.
You also know I will say they aren't really 'friends' if they make you
choose or if they can dictate to you who can be your friends and who you can
think worthy of helping or hugging. (Personally rosee, you get so many hugs
that it strikes me as monumentally small minded to get pissed off at the few
Mark gives me).
I can understand how it is hard for people to watch a friend care about
someone they don't like very much. My closest friend and I just went through
this with eachother. He is good friends with one of the people who have
tried to hurt me so in another land. That hurt me *terribly* and I walked
away from him for a day because I just couldn't understand how he could be
nice to someone who had hurt me so.
Then I grew up.
I realized he had a right to have as friends people I wouldn't walk across
the street to pee on if they were on fire. He is a grown man, a good man.
He has the right to make his own choices and while they may sometimes be hard
for me to understand, I can't, if I really love him, tell him he can't make
his own choices or second guess him on what he believes is best for himself.
I can tell him how I feel, and I did. It has put a block there between us, a
dead zone we don't discuss. Our friendship is strong enough and SEPERATE
enough that we can be friends without everyone else he knows coming into it.
He and I, our friendship, is a seperate entity. Who else he knows and cares
for doesn't affect how we care for eachother, doesn't change how he loves me.
It doesn't change how we are together. We're still 'us' no matter who else
he likes. And are he and I really supposed to give eachother a resume of
others in our lives for the other's approval? Anyway, the way I see it is I
care about him enough that I can put up with that one dead zone. And if he
had dropped this other person in favor of me, I would have felt momentarily
triumphant, but in the end, I would have felt small and greedy and grubby.
It simply wasn't right to make him choose.
That's where I see you at right now, Charlie. On the one hand, I want to
apologize that it is on my behalf, but you know what? I am being more mature
and nicer than the people who are doing this to you, so I guess maybe I am
worth it after all. I hate to see you go through it though.
You know me, Charlie. I have always said that if a friend tells you how to
have other friends, or which ones to have, or that if you really loved THEM
you would be mean to x for them, they aren't a friend. That is true no
matter how you look at it, no matter what spin is put on it, no matter what
rationalizations ( I was abused so it is ok to ask for unfair things) are
used to justify it. Friends don't do that to eachother. They just don't.
Period. But I will understand if you need to choose. I will thank you for
the time you spent on me, and what you see in me. But I won't go underground
to be friends with you...I won't be bullied or shamed or guilted into not
needing you. I don't know, maybe they really do need you more. I feel alot
stronger than rosee's post to you suggests to me she is feeling today.
rosee, I'm not going anywhere. You are going to have to find a way to deal
with me. Are you going to get mad at *everyone* who dares to like me? Are
you going to claim that *anyone* who is my friend is being hurtful and
disloyal to you?
I thought you were better than that, and I am genuinely disappointed. Too,
you seem to be running too hot and cold with regard to me for me to trust you
at all right now. One minute I have a right to live and have Mark be my
friend, the next minute he is betraying you all for being my friend. I don't
have time for this, even if I do understand where you are coming from. Your
problems with me are yours, rosee. I hope they don't cause you too much
trouble, and I hope you one day get over them so you don't keep putting
Charlie in the unfair position of making him feel bad or guilty because his
opinion differs from you. But they are your problems and the truth is you
need to find a way to deal with them without making me or Charlie responsible
for fixing it.
Right now though, this last post from you to mark negates everything else you
said to me as Lucy, and makes me feel stupid for trusting you. That's my
problem.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Suzanne Foubert
lucy_va...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7nnnab$cd2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I notice you are once again in a position where you are being effectively
>told to choose.
This manipulation is what I was talking about. Notice how Liz has picked up
on Marks soft spot. How she is parrotting what he has just very recently
posted about and twisted it in to him in order to bring forth a feeling of
either anger or guilt. Thats good isn't it? But its been done so many
times before that it is pretty transparent.
You are being told that to love one person means you can't
>love another and it looks to me like people are using emotional blackmail
and
>the normally very effective tag of having been abused as a reason for what
>they are trying to do to you.
Sure and Lucy-Liz is the only one who truly understands what you are
feeling - and of course she is relating to the fact that you see
similarities in your past behavior with hers. Thus she bonds you to her.
It is far more effective than demanding loyalty. Understated. and shows
some talent. But we've all been there before.
>
>Well, you do what you need to do, Charlie. Either way. If you feel that
the
>only way to keep your 'friends' is to dump me, you know I'll understand
that.
Giggle........ this is almost amusing in light of allllllllllllll the other
times we have all read this very statement coming from this very person.
What is it with borderlines that they think they collect no history or that
people do not remember their behavior patterns?
> You also know I will say they aren't really 'friends' if they make you
>choose or if they can dictate to you who can be your friends and who you
can
>think worthy of helping or hugging.
Your friends aren't worthy of you Mark, only I (Liz) am. If they make you
choose. Actually no one has have they? This is playing right into your
insecurities Mark. You know it, I know it and Liz obviously knows it cause
she is using it. My only question is - does she think we are all that
stupid that we cannot see it. Or, worse yet, does she really believe that
you are that stupid and so easily manipulated? Personally I'd be insulted
for being judged as being so easy.
(Personally rosee, you get so many hugs
>that it strikes me as monumentally small minded to get pissed off at the
few
>Mark gives me).
Awwwww poor little Liz and big bad nasty Rosee. Mark do you see the
manipulation here. Rosee is begrudging poor little Liz the few small meager
hugs she manages to find around here and Rosee is so greedy to want them
all. How awfully small minded of her to want all the love.
>
>I can understand how it is hard for people to watch a friend care about
>someone they don't like very much.
She understands very well and is using it quite effectively actually. Mark,
are you tuning into this. Are you really this easily manipulated?
My closest friend and I just went through
>this with eachother. He is good friends with one of the people who have
>tried to hurt me so in another land. That hurt me *terribly*
awwwwww and you of course were blameless...... I know sweetie, there
there.......
and I walked
>away from him for a day because I just couldn't understand how he could be
>nice to someone who had hurt me so.
>
>Then I grew up.
Hope he wised up and stayed away....
gross silly manipulative stuff snipped
>
>
>That's where I see you at right now, Charlie. On the one hand, I want to
>apologize that it is on my behalf, but you know what? I am being more
mature
>and nicer than the people who are doing this to you, so I guess maybe I am
>worth it after all. I hate to see you go through it though.
Looks like she is the only good true one Mark, if I were you I would sure
drop all of your old good friends and hop in her wagon or not. Again this
is classic manipulation.
>>rosee, I'm not going anywhere. You are going to have to find a way to deal
>with me.
No actually none of of have to find a way of dealing with you at all. We
can chose to notice you or choose to ignore you - you have no control over
that.
Are you going to get mad at *everyone* who dares to like me?
More manipulation - this is designed to get a reaction from rosee, an angry
one which will then in turn make Liz the center of negative attention. She
will have anger leveled at her and then will act innocent and say "but all I
did was tell Rosee I wasn't leaving!!! and they are hurting me" and they
will have people pitted against each other fighting with each other over
her. Pretty nifty. Nice work if you want to take the time to get it. Me?
I'll opt out thanks. Mark is my friend and is going to continue to be my
freind for as long as we choose to be friends with each other no matter what
Liz,sim,Lucy, and lastest aol incarnations decide to do. The structure of
our friendship has nothing to do with a silly little psychotic stalker in
CA.
Are
>you going to claim that *anyone* who is my friend is being hurtful and
>disloyal to you?
She hasn't done that thus far and will not every probably, I've never known
her to say any such thing. But of course it is beneficial to your
manipulations to put those words in her mouth.
>
>I thought you were better than that, and I am genuinely disappointed.
Correction you are making up words - attributing them to her and reacting to
them like they are fact. That is a manipulator and an abuser.
Too,
>you seem to be running too hot and cold with regard to me for me to trust
you
>at all right now.
Reject before you can be rejected - thats a classic old one too. But you
were rejected a long time before now. You just keep replaying it.
One minute I have a right to live and have Mark be my
>friend, the next minute he is betraying you all for being my friend.
You better look again. I think what Mark is offering is a helping hand and
support - might not be actual friendship. You better clarify that.
Friendship denotes trust. I kinda think you don't have that from him.
I don't
>have time for this
Sweetie whatever do you mean? You don't have a job and spend all you waking
hours on the net. You stalk people on the net for Gods sake. Please think
of something better than you don't have time for this. If you didn't have
all this time on your hands and did something constructive maybe you would
be in so many jackpots all the time.
I hope you one day get over them so you don't keep putting
>Charlie in the unfair position of making him feel bad or guilty because his
>opinion differs from you. But they are your problems and the truth is you
>need to find a way to deal with them without making me or Charlie
responsible
>for fixing it.
Bond with Mark, call him a cute nickname, flirt with him and use him to hurt
another poster - preferably a friend of his. Thus separating them and
isolating him. This is really overused manipulation stuff Liz. Its old and
tired and we've all be the bond, divide and conquer route.
Yawn.....................
next...........
>
>Right now though, this last post from you to mark negates everything else
you
>said to me as Lucy, and makes me feel stupid for trusting you. That's my
>problem.
Awwwww poor poor Lucy - big bad people hurting her and destroying her trust.
Aren't you the person who said she trusts no one? How then could nothing be
destroyed. Sheeze..
Crisis
Tenacity9
relationship about anyone but Lucy and Charlie, it's you. And because of that
and because you continue to be as unable as ever to see things without that
bitter little cloak, I am no longer ineterested in nor will I read your
opinions.
With regard to hugs, you are more than welcome to your opinion. I find myself
grateful that your opinion about hugs between other people which has NOTHING to
do with you has no affects on the hugs at all.
Bye.
© Liz
http://www.geocities.com/wellesley/7368
A closed mind gathers no thoughts. -Anonymous friend
shardik
Suzanne Foubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
<7nnrep$i...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
> What is it with borderlines that they think they collect no history or
that
> people do not remember their behavior patterns?
What is it with redheads that they think they have all the answers?
Shar
Tenacity9
sfoubert
Tenacity9 <tena...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19990728211227...@ng-fz1.aol.com...
> So it's all twisted is it? It seems to me the only one trying to make the
> relationship about anyone but Lucy and Charlie, it's you. And because of
that
> and because you continue to be as unable as ever to see things without
that
> bitter little cloak, I am no longer ineterested in nor will I read your
> opinions.
getting this time are not those she got the last time. We are much more
into laughing at her this time. She simply has gained amusing troll status
at this point.
>
> With regard to hugs, you are more than welcome to your opinion. I find
myself
> grateful that your opinion about hugs between other people which has
NOTHING to
> do with you has no affects on the hugs at all.
>
> Bye.
Buh Bye.............
sfoubert
shardik <Mnemo...@xxxxxworldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:01bed966$3d7c4b00$71984d0c@sarkid...
> that
> > people do not remember their behavior patterns?
>
>
>
Its somehting about the sunlite reflecting offa the hair - creates an energy
field.
averti
>
> You know, I have never asked or expected any friend to have to choose
> between somebody else and myself. I'm not about to start now.
I agree with you here. In fact, I associate this ''the enemy of'my
friend is my enemy'' stuff with adolescence or primitive social
structures.
Besides, it's lazy. Surely one can find enough disagreeable
things in another person to dislike them on their own merits...8).
a.
>
> Nothing in my post had anything to do with expecting mark to choose. If
> that is what you think it was about you are sadly mistaken. Mark and I have
> been friends for years. He has friends that I don't like, I have friends
> that he doesn't like.
>
> Personally, I think it's a good thing, that Mark seems to have actually
> gotten through to you, somehow made a connection. My only concern in that
> is my fear that you will follow your own pattern and really hurt him. That
> he will become just one more on the enormous list of people you have hurt or
> betrayed.
>
> But, he's a big boy, quite capable of protecting himself. It's not my job
> to try to make him choose and I'm not gonna do it.
>
> That is not what my post was about, liz and you know it. You are just
> trying to twist what I say.
>
> My post was addressing the bigger picture. It was discussing the philosophy
> and mindset that Mark was using. From your post here, I can assume that you
> agree with Mark's philosophy of Charlie Brown's behaviour? So....when you
> were a child, you chose to be abused? After it went on for a period of
> time, you chose to keep being abused?
>
> Maybe you did, I know I didn't. I didn't get to choose. I didn't ask my
> mother to come home drunk, drag me out of my bed by the hair, beat the shit
> out of me, then throw me down on her bed, crush my small body with her own,
> and piss all over me.
>
> Nope, not once did I choose to have that happen. But it did. In my constant
> search for my mother's love, my need to have faith in her and my need to
> believe she loved me, I would forever fall back into that trap. Not because
> I chose to, but because I did not know that there was a choice.
>
> That wasn't about you, liz, you can try to make it that, all you want. It
> was about how his philosophy on Charlie Browns "choice" to keep being
> abused, made me feel. You can substitute anyone for those characters, it
> doesn't matter. To me, it felt like the same 'abuse excuse' that I've heard
> for years.
>
> Now, the hug thing. I know I overreacted on that. I need to apologize to
> Mark about that. I don't care if he hugs you 600 times a day. I brought it
> up, because I know that if I had been the one in azure's postion in this
> thread. Not so much because he hugged you, but because he made it feel like
> you were deserving of that hug and azure wasn't. That one just squicked me.
> He was talking TO azure, not to you, yet you get the hug and azure gets....?
>
> I don't expect Mark to choose between friends. I didn't say that, and you
> can twist it however you like, I still didn't say that. However, the last
> time I checked, this was a discussion group and I have as much right as you
> to express my opinion.
>
> rosee
>
> ps - You know, liz, you and I have several friends in common. I would never
> ask or expect any of them to choose. Which you would know, if you bothered
> to ask them.
>
> <lucy_va...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:7nnnab$cd2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> --
> For more information about this posting service, contact:
> he...@asarian-host.org -- for all info about our server.
> If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
>
> http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html
shardik
sfoubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
<7novub$n...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
>
> shardik <Mnemo...@xxxxxworldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:01bed966$3d7c4b00$71984d0c@sarkid...
> >
> >
> > Suzanne Foubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
> > <7nnrep$i...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
> > > What is it with borderlines that they think they collect no history
or
> > that
> > > people do not remember their behavior patterns?
> >
> >
> > What is it with redheads that they think they have all the answers?
> >
>
> Its somehting about the sunlite reflecting offa the hair - creates an
energy
> field.
In this case, a very negative energy field! I was attempting to make a
point, albeit unsuccessfully, that your generalization can be extremely
hurtful to some.
Shar
averti
>
> sfoubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
> <7novub$n...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
> >
> > shardik <Mnemo...@xxxxxworldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> > news:01bed966$3d7c4b00$71984d0c@sarkid...
> > >
> > >
> > > Suzanne Foubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
> > > <7nnrep$i...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
> or
> > > that
> > > > people do not remember their behavior patterns?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Its somehting about the sunlite reflecting offa the hair - creates an
> energy
> > field.
>
> In this case, a very negative energy field! I was attempting to make a
> point, albeit unsuccessfully, that your generalization can be extremely
> hurtful to some.
Thanks for that.
I have to add here that just as there are varying degrees of
depression, psychosis, neurosis, and so on, ''borderline''
is a way elastic diagnosis. I only fit parts of the checklist,
and others I know fit different parts. ''That's just like
a borderline'' is not much more sensible than ''that's just
like a woman'' or any other wild generalization.
That (defensively) said, yes, it's often the case that we
''collect no history'' or lose the sense that other people
have greater historical continuity than we do. You think
these traits are chosen or exercised on purpose?
> Shar
a.
sfoubert
averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37A089...@hotmail.com...
> That (defensively) said, yes, it's often the case that we
> ''collect no history'' or lose the sense that other people
> have greater historical continuity than we do. You think
> these traits are chosen or exercised on purpose?
> > Shar
It is my opinion and need not be anyone else's.... I am not a psych., never
have been..... don't even play one on TV, that after watching Liz for the
past year - her outbursts ,her manipulations her rages, her calling people
in tears begging forgiveness and then attacking them again, her stalking,
her total lack of consideration for other people's feelings when considering
her own , her seeming inability to feel what would normally be appropriate
emotions in a given circumstance, her need to make even the remotest subject
matter all about her and then combining that with her childhood history and
her overall behavior on the net that Liz is a borderline. Most of all it
was the ever present rage that was the key for my opinion.
It is my opinion and only my opinion - if anyone wishes to discuss how I
arrived at it, fine. But I am not asking anyone to take it on as their
opinion. I was merely stating mine from my observations.
Liz lives by her own rules and in her own environment. The shame of it is
she doesn't have to remain there. There is help out there.
Crisis
>
> a.
sfoubert
>
> In this case, a very negative energy field!
I always figure that that is in the eye and brain of the beholder, if that
is what you are looking for and coming from - then that is what you are
going to see. You seem to come from a very negative place so naturally that
is what you see. No problem - just so I don't see it from that direction
and I don't.
I was attempting to make a
> point, albeit unsuccessfully, that your generalization can be extremely
> hurtful to some.
Oh I didn't miss that point at all just ignore it considering the source and
considered it pure troll.
Crisis
> Shar
averti
>
> averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:37A089...@hotmail.com...
> > That (defensively) said, yes, it's often the case that we
> > ''collect no history'' or lose the sense that other people
> > have greater historical continuity than we do. You think
> > these traits are chosen or exercised on purpose?
> > > Shar
>
> It is my opinion and need not be anyone else's.... I am not a psych., never
> have been..... don't even play one on TV, that after watching Liz for the
> past year - her outbursts ,her manipulations her rages, her calling people
> in tears begging forgiveness and then attacking them again, her stalking,
> her total lack of consideration for other people's feelings when considering
> her own , her seeming inability to feel what would normally be appropriate
> emotions in a given circumstance, her need to make even the remotest subject
> matter all about her and then combining that with her childhood history and
> her overall behavior on the net that Liz is a borderline.
OK.
> Most of all it
> was the ever present rage that was the key for my opinion.
>
> It is my opinion and only my opinion - if anyone wishes to discuss how I
> arrived at it, fine. But I am not asking anyone to take it on as their
> opinion. I was merely stating mine from my observations.
>
OK.
> Liz lives by her own rules and in her own environment. The shame of it is
> she doesn't have to remain there. There is help out there.
>
I suppose so. No cure, though.
> Crisis
> >
> > a.
a.
Jean
It is my opinion that my opinion on anyone else's psychiatric
*diagnosis* would be an opinion of an uneducated and pretentious
nature.
Only my opinion, though.
jean
Crisis gal
banshe...@my-deja.com (Jean) writes:
>s my opinion that my opinion on anyone else's psychiatric
>*diagnosis* would be an opinion of an uneducated and pretentious
>nature.
>
>Only my opinion, though.
>
>jean
>
>
It is my opinion that your opinion is a workable opinion for you and others
opinion would be working for them. I probably wouldn't use the word
pretentious because it might be a word that could hurt feelings or not. If
that would be your intention, but then maybe not.
Crisis
sfoubert
> I suppose so. No cure, though.
true but that doesn't mean that there are not workarounds and reality
checks. I have seen people with BPD live really wonderful productive lives
and with using some learned skills, keep the emotional thunderstorms under
control. Just because there is no cure, it is wasteful not to try. Some of
the borderlines I have known and loved have been extremely creative and
talented people.
>
> > Crisis
> > >
> > > a.
>
> a.
sfoubert
Prism Collective <sava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37a09ef...@news.earthlink.net...
> On 29 Jul 1999 16:49:32 GMT, "shardik"
> <Mnemo...@xxxxxworldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Shar,
> Thank you for this post. I got your point, and it was a great
> point.
>
> Kaitlyn
yeah............................. thanks kait.
Cri
> Visit my Website at:
> http://members.xoom.com/kaitlynw/
>
averti
>
> > I suppose so. No cure, though.
>
> true but that doesn't mean that there are not workarounds and reality
> checks.
You're right.
>I have seen people with BPD live really wonderful productive lives
> and with using some learned skills, keep the emotional thunderstorms under
> control. Just because there is no cure, it is wasteful not to try.
''Wasteful?'' I'm not sure I understand that part. Who is
wasting what?
> Some of
> the borderlines I have known and loved have been extremely creative and
> talented people.
Thank you 8).
Actually, the votes aren't in, but it begins to look like a lot
of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
people around are borderlines.
>
> >
> > > Crisis
> > > >
> > > > a.
> >
> > a.
sfoubert
> sfoubert wrote:
> >
> > > I suppose so. No cure, though.
> >
> wasting what?
wasting a really good chance at life. Just my opinion. I have experienced
a lot of the negative side of borderline behavior - but those individuals
were also
very very intelligent and talented individuals. It was their negative
behavior that
repelled people like bug spray. Its seems to be either terribly enchanting
behavior or
awful rage. Rarely any inbetween that is lasting. Unpredictability I guess
is the scary
part. That is what can be addressed.
>
> > Some of
> > the borderlines I have known and loved have been extremely creative and
> > talented people.
>
> Thank you 8).
Always love you Mr. a. But then I don't have to live with you 24/7. I
just get to enjoy
the wonderful wisdom you inject here.... not to mention the laughs.
My family tree has a few diagnosed borderlines and untreated, in it. Being
stuck there as a child was a nightmare.
>
> Actually, the votes aren't in, but it begins to look like a lot
> of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
> people around are borderlines.
Yep - it suppliles the intensity and the concentration of self to be able to
create amazing
and unique works but it also has its price.
The information filtering about how the disorder is formed is also sad and
lonely if it is in fact accurate
Cri.
> >
> > >
> > > > Crisis
> > > > >
> > > > > a.
> > >
> > > a.
James Tolson
I must differ with regards to the use the term "borderline". It seems
to me that "flat-out", "intense", "overboard", or a variety of other
terms indicative of being "way over the line" might be *much* more
appropriate. :o)
On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:20:25 -0500, "sfoubert" <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu>
wrote:
>
>averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:37A089...@hotmail.com...
>> That (defensively) said, yes, it's often the case that we
>> ''collect no history'' or lose the sense that other people
>> have greater historical continuity than we do. You think
>> these traits are chosen or exercised on purpose?
>> > Shar
>
>
>It is my opinion and need not be anyone else's.... I am not a psych., never
>have been..... don't even play one on TV, that after watching Liz for the
>past year - her outbursts ,her manipulations her rages, her calling people
>in tears begging forgiveness and then attacking them again, her stalking,
>her total lack of consideration for other people's feelings when considering
>her own , her seeming inability to feel what would normally be appropriate
>emotions in a given circumstance, her need to make even the remotest subject
>matter all about her and then combining that with her childhood history and
>her overall behavior on the net that Liz is a borderline. Most of all it
>was the ever present rage that was the key for my opinion.
>
>It is my opinion and only my opinion - if anyone wishes to discuss how I
>arrived at it, fine. But I am not asking anyone to take it on as their
>opinion. I was merely stating mine from my observations.
>
>Liz lives by her own rules and in her own environment. The shame of it is
>she doesn't have to remain there. There is help out there.
>
>Crisis
>>
>> a.
>
shardik
sfoubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
<7nq61l$4...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
Nor am I a psych. Nor does anyone have to be a psych in order to figure
out a comment can hurt not just the one you *want* it to hurt, but innocent
bystanders as well.
Shar
banshee_howl
Yes, I see your point about the word pretentious. It shouldn't have
been in there, I was feeling a little bit irked but then again, I have
been known to be a little irksome, myself.
jean
>
> Crisis
>
--
Guns don't kill people, people throwing bowling
balls at other people kill people.
Tenacity9
out a comment can hurt not just the one you *want* it to hurt, but innocent
bystanders as well.
Shar<
And of course, you don't need to be a psych to know the difference between
something intended to help and something disguised in thick sugary syrup
DESIGNED to hurt.
I wonder too if some people understand yet that agreeing with me on any one
issue or several of them in fact does not automatically mean that person is my
best friend?
Jean
>sfoubert wrote:
>>
>> > I suppose so. No cure, though.
>>
>> true but that doesn't mean that there are not workarounds and reality
>> checks.
>
>You're right.
>
>>I have seen people with BPD live really wonderful productive lives
>> and with using some learned skills, keep the emotional thunderstorms under
>> control. Just because there is no cure, it is wasteful not to try.
>
>''Wasteful?'' I'm not sure I understand that part. Who is
>wasting what?
>
>> Some of
>> the borderlines I have known and loved have been extremely creative and
>> talented people.
>
>Thank you 8).
>
>Actually, the votes aren't in, but it begins to look like a lot
>of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
>people around are borderlines.
That would qualify me.
jean
>>
>> >
>> > > Crisis
>> > > >
>> > > > a.
>> >
>> > a.
sfoubert
>
> Nor am I a psych. Nor does anyone have to be a psych in order to figure
> out a comment can hurt not just the one you *want* it to hurt, but
innocent
> bystanders as well.
If you wish to go around reading posts and collecting hurt, be my guest. I
don't care
for Liz, but there have been several borderlines in my life that I cared for
very very much and
still do. When you only give the negative Shar, that is often all you are
able to see.
> Shar
averti
> > sfoubert wrote:
> > >
> > > > I suppose so. No cure, though.
> > >
> > wasting what?
>
I can relate. I suppose I have a certain latent resentment
against that line of talk, because I spent my entire younger
life ''wasting'' myself 8). According to whoever felt
empowered to offer an opinion.
>I have experienced
> a lot of the negative side of borderline behavior - but those individuals
> were also
> very very intelligent and talented individuals. It was their negative
> behavior that
> repelled people like bug spray. Its seems to be either terribly enchanting
> behavior or
> awful rage.
That's it. I'm not a terribly profound case (any more) but
I can testify from back experience that it DOES get to be
where, at the top of the swing, I love you so much I can't
think about anything else, and at the bottom, I could see you
shot down in the street and not bat an eyelash 8(.
>Rarely any inbetween that is lasting. Unpredictability I guess
> is the scary
> part. That is what can be addressed.
> >
> > > Some of
> > > the borderlines I have known and loved have been extremely creative and
> > > talented people.
> >
> > Thank you 8).
>
> Always love you Mr. a. But then I don't have to live with you 24/7. I
> just get to enjoy
> the wonderful wisdom you inject here.... not to mention the laughs.
>
Important point 8). (Not whay you like about me so much as
the ''live with'' part.) I've only ever had one ''live with''
relationship and that one is ususually elastic. it's almost
as if not being able to carry on long-term relationships
is a blessing in disguise. Keeps the investment low and the
clashes minimal.
> My family tree has a few diagnosed borderlines and untreated, in it. Being
> stuck there as a child was a nightmare.
> >
> > Actually, the votes aren't in, but it begins to look like a lot
> > of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
> > people around are borderlines.
>
> Yep - it suppliles the intensity and the concentration of self to be able to
> create amazing
> and unique works but it also has its price.
>
That about covers it.
> The information filtering about how the disorder is formed is also sad and
> lonely if it is in fact accurate
>
Today's information is ''accurate'' until tomorrow's re-writes
it 8).
> Cri.
>
a.
> >
> > > >
> > > > > Crisis
> > > > > >
> > > > > > a.
> > > >
> > > > a.
averti
>
> Hmmm....
>
> I must differ with regards to the use the term "borderline". It seems
> to me that "flat-out", "intense", "overboard", or a variety of other
> terms indicative of being "way over the line" might be *much* more
> appropriate. :o)
In behavorial terms, sure. In medical terms, it's a pretty good
fit, as it refers more to the condition that causes the
overboardedness than the acting-out itself.
a.
>
> On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 13:20:25 -0500, "sfoubert" <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:37A089...@hotmail.com...
> >> That (defensively) said, yes, it's often the case that we
> >> ''collect no history'' or lose the sense that other people
> >> have greater historical continuity than we do. You think
> >> these traits are chosen or exercised on purpose?
> >> > Shar
> >
> >
> >It is my opinion and need not be anyone else's.... I am not a psych., never
> >have been..... don't even play one on TV, that after watching Liz for the
> >past year - her outbursts ,her manipulations her rages, her calling people
> >in tears begging forgiveness and then attacking them again, her stalking,
> >her total lack of consideration for other people's feelings when considering
> >her own , her seeming inability to feel what would normally be appropriate
> >emotions in a given circumstance, her need to make even the remotest subject
> >matter all about her and then combining that with her childhood history and
> >her overall behavior on the net that Liz is a borderline. Most of all it
> >was the ever present rage that was the key for my opinion.
> >
> >It is my opinion and only my opinion - if anyone wishes to discuss how I
> >arrived at it, fine. But I am not asking anyone to take it on as their
> >opinion. I was merely stating mine from my observations.
> >
> >Liz lives by her own rules and in her own environment. The shame of it is
> >she doesn't have to remain there. There is help out there.
> >
> >Crisis
> >>
> >> a.
> >
sfoubert
>
> And of course, you don't need to be a psych to know the difference between
> something intended to help and something disguised in thick sugary syrup
> DESIGNED to hurt.
>
:-)
sfoubert
Jean <banshe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:37a2d2ab...@news.rchrd1.on.wave.home.com...
> >of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
> >people around are borderlines.
>
I see you as very creative, but never saw you as borderline material
Have you been diagnosed as that?
Cri
averti
[....]
> >Actually, the votes aren't in, but it begins to look like a lot
> >of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
> >people around are borderlines.
>
> That would qualify me.
Of course. We knew that all along 8).
>
> jean
> >>
> >> >
> >> > > Crisis
> >> > > >
> >> > > > a.
> >> >
> >> > a.
averti
>
> Jean <banshe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:37a2d2ab...@news.rchrd1.on.wave.home.com...
> > On Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:42:41 -0700, averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >of the extremely creative and talented (but troublesome)
> > >people around are borderlines.
> >
> > That would qualify me.
>
> Have you been diagnosed as that?
Yep. Sorry I didn't make that clear(er). That was part of what
I was ''processing'' when I dropped off the group for a few
months.
In my case the re-diagnosis has been very useful, because it
puts names and patterns to stuff that I have struggled with
since forever--and also places ''depression'' in better
perspective. Depression being more a symptom of something
else than a free-standing disease, so to speak.
I have also allowed myself some slack, insofar as blaming
myself for ''bad'' behavior (by my own standards, I mean; I
hope I still take proper responsibility for ''badness''
as it affects other people.)
Functionally speaking, this new information suggests that
having had sex with dozens and hundreds of people is not an
illness, per se, but more of an eccentricity arising out
of a recognized early trauma situation. An allowable
eccentricity, I still believe, where it doesn't harm other
people.
However, taking no chances, I have stopped fucking around
anyway 8). For the present.
>
Thanks for asking.
> Cri
a.
sfoubert
averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:37A1E1...@hotmail.com...
> sfoubert wrote:
> >
> > averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:37A0E6...@hotmail.com...
> > > sfoubert wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > I suppose so. No cure, though.
> > > >
> > > > ''Wasteful?'' I'm not sure I understand that part. Who is
> > > wasting what?
> >
> > wasting a really good chance at life. Just my opinion.
>
> I can relate. I suppose I have a certain latent resentment
> against that line of talk, because I spent my entire younger
> life ''wasting'' myself 8). According to whoever felt
> empowered to offer an opinion.
Yeah I think a lot of us endured that kind of talk for a lot of
reasons. What I experienced may or may not have been
wasteful who knows, but it did bring me to where I am now and
I am liking that spot. It works for me. I do at times wish it had
come a little sooner, but its good its here.
>
> >I have experienced
> > a lot of the negative side of borderline behavior - but those
individuals
> > were also
> > very very intelligent and talented individuals. It was their negative
> > behavior that
> > repelled people like bug spray. Its seems to be either terribly
enchanting
> > behavior or
> > awful rage.
>
> That's it. I'm not a terribly profound case (any more) but
> I can testify from back experience that it DOES get to be
> where, at the top of the swing, I love you so much I can't
> think about anything else, and at the bottom, I could see you
> shot down in the street and not bat an eyelash 8(.
Since I have evened out my life somewhat at this stage, I find
that swing hard to deal with but bearable, I don't feel responsible anymore.
But I do understand the dynamics. As a child it was devestating to deal
with.
It was one of the keys to my dissociative problems. Dealing with that as a
child
teaches you that love is not a consistent thing, that it can change on a
dime.
In my adult life, I find that a person with that swing can be the most fun
in the
world to be around most of the time. Life is never ever dull and you laugh
a lot. For me I have
to set up boundaries though and I have to keep them and not put that burden
on
them. When the downswing comes - I keep my distance until it swings back
> >
> > Always love you Mr. a. But then I don't have to live with you 24/7. I
> > just get to enjoy
> > the wonderful wisdom you inject here.... not to mention the laughs.
> >
>
> Important point 8). (Not whay you like about me so much as
> the ''live with'' part.) I've only ever had one ''live with''
> relationship and that one is ususually elastic. it's almost
> as if not being able to carry on long-term relationships
> is a blessing in disguise. Keeps the investment low and the
> clashes minimal.
I think it is important that you know that in yourself and have found
a mate who can deal with it and that you are dealing with it and not
denying it. Humans are such complex and unique individuals. No
one way of being seems wrong to me, I think the key is what you do
with what you have. I think denying that you have the capcity to inflict
pain makes it uncontrollable. If that makes sense.
> >
> > Yep - it suppliles the intensity and the concentration of self to be
able to
> > create amazing
> > and unique works but it also has its price.
> >
>
> That about covers it.
Yeah I think. The fear to excel in an area is not there. Because of the
unique focus inside.
I know I am not explaining my feelings well here, but I envy that ability,
it takes far more
focus for me to be sure that I am creating something that is good and that
lack of focus or
fear holds back my creativity.
>
> > The information filtering about how the disorder is formed is also sad
and
> > lonely if it is in fact accurate
> >
>
> Today's information is ''accurate'' until tomorrow's re-writes
> it 8).
Aint that the truth ............ like the weather down here, wait five
minutes and it
will change.
Nice talking with you Mr. a.
Cri.
sfoubert
banshee_howl <banshe...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7nspvg$q6b$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > It is my opinion that your opinion is a workable opinion for you and
> others
> > opinion would be working for them. I probably wouldn't use the word
> > pretentious because it might be a word that could hurt feelings or
> not. If
> > that would be your intention, but then maybe not.
>
> Yes, I see your point about the word pretentious. It shouldn't have
> been in there, I was feeling a little bit irked but then again, I have
> been known to be a little irksome, myself.
>
> jean
irksome be us. No prob. Keep reading the thread - you will see
that my thoughts on borderlines are not exactly what you probably
assumed at first blush.
Crisis
sfoubert
> > I see you as very creative, but never saw you as borderline material
> > Have you been diagnosed as that?
>
> Yep. Sorry I didn't make that clear(er). That was part of what
> I was ''processing'' when I dropped off the group for a few
> months.
ahhhhh........... ok. Crisis reads on..........
>
> In my case the re-diagnosis has been very useful, because it
> puts names and patterns to stuff that I have struggled with
> since forever--and also places ''depression'' in better
> perspective. Depression being more a symptom of something
> else than a free-standing disease, so to speak.
I found that with the dissociative disorder too. I never fit the mold
of depressed actually and I wasn't it seems. At least not chronically.
>
> I have also allowed myself some slack, insofar as blaming
> myself for ''bad'' behavior (by my own standards, I mean; I
> hope I still take proper responsibility for ''badness''
> as it affects other people.)
Yep me too..... being able to see the picture in its proper context
gives you reasons why you are the way you are - not excuses. Once
you have the reasons you can deal with the dynamics and change is
possible if that is what you choose.
Not blaming yourself and being able to at the same time accept
responsibility for your behavior is one (to me) of the most important
goals of therapy or recovery.
Man........ everyone does "bad" stuff. if you live your life trying to
avoid it, you stiffle yourself. But I think taking responsibility for the
pain you inflict also gives you tools to avoid it in the future. Denial
of the pain you have caused buries it and the lesson you might
learn from taking responsibility for it.
>
> Functionally speaking, this new information suggests that
> having had sex with dozens and hundreds of people is not an
> illness, per se, but more of an eccentricity arising out
> of a recognized early trauma situation. An allowable
> eccentricity, I still believe, where it doesn't harm other
> people.
I believe that also. One does have to take the harm factor
into consideration. But call me silly, I just never got all that
upset over anyone's sexual appetite.
>
> However, taking no chances, I have stopped fucking around
> anyway 8). For the present
That is a determination that we all have to make at one time or
other and in my little corner of the world is always up for change.
> >
>
> Thanks for asking.
How does one know if they don't ask. Not asking happens
a lot around here. Don't know exactly why that is.
Cri.
>
> > Cri
>
> a.
mary w. spencer
> > > > sfoubert wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose so. No cure, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > ''Wasteful?'' I'm not sure I understand that part. Who is
> > > > wasting what?
> > >
> > > wasting a really good chance at life. Just my opinion.
> >
> > I can relate. I suppose I have a certain latent resentment
> > against that line of talk, because I spent my entire younger
> > life ''wasting'' myself 8). According to whoever felt
> > empowered to offer an opinion.
>
> Yeah I think a lot of us endured that kind of talk for a lot of
> reasons. What I experienced may or may not have been
> wasteful who knows, but it did bring me to where I am now and
> I am liking that spot. It works for me. I do at times wish it had
> come a little sooner, but its good its here.
Hi all,
I feel a lot of what you said because of being the "dumb" one in the
family and marrying a man that kept telling me I was stupid. When I look
at half of my life being convinced that other people were right it does
make me feel like I was stupid. Then I think of what I finally
accomplished and what I finally get to do and I guess it just took that
long for me to wake up. That I made up my mind to prove to myself that I
was not dumb, I finally came alive. I have one class to go and have had
nothing less than a 4.00. (Just my own challenge to myself).
What is even more important I get to do what I love and work with
people. If I were to use one word, I guess I am an "encourager". I help
people believe in themselves. The thrill and gratification of finally
doing what I want makes the past just a bump in the road. I appreciate
life so much more than if it all came easy. I also know what it is like
to be human and make lots of mistakes. It sure helps in relating to
clients.
Blessings,
Mary
averti
[...clip stuff multiply seen...]
> Hi all,
> I feel a lot of what you said because of being the "dumb" one in the
> family and marrying a man that kept telling me I was stupid. When I look
> at half of my life being convinced that other people were right it does
> make me feel like I was stupid.
Tricky business. It takes strength to trust yourself when
all the ''authorities'' are running you down. More strength
than a lot of people can find, esp. at a young age.
>Then I think of what I finally
> accomplished and what I finally get to do and I guess it just took that
> long for me to wake up. That I made up my mind to prove to myself that I
> was not dumb, I finally came alive. I have one class to go and have had
> nothing less than a 4.00. (Just my own challenge to myself).
There you go. ''Self'' ends up being the one to prove stuff
to--self, after all, knows the most about you 8).
>
> What is even more important I get to do what I love and work with
> people. If I were to use one word, I guess I am an "encourager". I help
> people believe in themselves. The thrill and gratification of finally
> doing what I want makes the past just a bump in the road. I appreciate
> life so much more than if it all came easy. I also know what it is like
> to be human and make lots of mistakes. It sure helps in relating to
> clients.
>
That sounds great.
I heard once that it's not true that you can do anything you
put your mind to, but it IS true that you can find out what you
can do, by trying. Good for you for finding your things to do.
> Blessings,
> Mary
> >
a.
shardik
> > Nor am I a psych. Nor does anyone have to be a psych in order to
figure
> > out a comment can hurt not just the one you *want* it to hurt, but
> innocent
> > bystanders as well.
> If you wish to go around reading posts and collecting hurt, be my guest.
Ummmmm . . . this sounds just a tad bit manipulative.
I
> don't care
> for Liz,
then why keep responding to her?
>but there have been several borderlines in my life that I cared for
> very very much and
> still do.
Oh, . . . "some of my best friends are . . . "
When you only give the negative Shar, that is often all you are
> able to see.
Well, gee, please help me see the positive in this statement:
>> What is it with borderlines that they think they collect no history or
> that
> > people do not remember their behavior patterns?
This statement is extremely derogatory to many borderlines. The fact that
you are unable or unwilling to see/admit that tells me a lot about you.
I'm outta this thread. I believe I made my point and no need to keep
talking with you about it as I feel you're in flame-mode.
Shar
Tenacity9
talking with you about it as I feel you're in flame-mode.<
Yup, and you know what a friend said to me? She said walk away. There will
ALWAYS be another point to be made you forgot about or in answer to the next
from an opponent. Just let them have the last word and walk away. She said I
would be happier for it and I have been.
Take care.
mary w. spencer
>
> mary w. spencer wrote:
>
> [...clip stuff multiply seen...]
>
> > I feel a lot of what you said because of being the "dumb" one in the
> > family and marrying a man that kept telling me I was stupid. When I look
> > at half of my life being convinced that other people were right it does
> > make me feel like I was stupid.
>
> all the ''authorities'' are running you down. More strength
> than a lot of people can find, esp. at a young age.
>
> > accomplished and what I finally get to do and I guess it just took that
> > long for me to wake up. That I made up my mind to prove to myself that I
> > was not dumb, I finally came alive. I have one class to go and have had
> > nothing less than a 4.00. (Just my own challenge to myself).
>
> to--self, after all, knows the most about you 8).
>
> >
> > people. If I were to use one word, I guess I am an "encourager". I help
> > people believe in themselves. The thrill and gratification of finally
> > doing what I want makes the past just a bump in the road. I appreciate
> > life so much more than if it all came easy. I also know what it is like
> > to be human and make lots of mistakes. It sure helps in relating to
> > clients.
> >
>
>
> I heard once that it's not true that you can do anything you
> put your mind to, but it IS true that you can find out what you
> can do, by trying. Good for you for finding your things to do.
Thanks for commenting, Averti. You know what did make a difference for
me was getting tested at the career center on campus. It is a way for
anyone in the community to find out just where there abilities,
interests, ambitions, values stand. For $10 anyone can take a whole
bunch of fun tests (I got it free as a student) that would cost
$300-$500 if taken elsewhere. Most colleges have this service.
The tests made me feel a lot better about myself because I stopped
thinking of myself as having deficits. In my family of origin they were
more scientific, analytical and I simply didn't excell in Math, Physics,
etc. The others didn't value the abilities I did have so I just thought
of myself as not as good.
Now I know they can't do the things I am good at and I am not less than,
but different than. That made me so much more at ease with myself. I
would not dream of using them for therapy or even talk to about my
issues. They are much more "thing" oriented and not very people
oriented. They do great in the fields they are in and have enough people
skills to do well. We are just different. I really feel that everyone
has some area that is very useful and valuable and when you find it you
will find a way to feel good about yourself and help the rest of us at
the same time.
I am personally grateful for detail oriented people who can keep track
of things for me. I can get intensely involved with someone suffering
emotionally and even seem to find just the right thing to say. But, ask
me what someone said on AAR three months ago or what order this or that
happened, or where I put last semester's sylibus and I am lost. Trying
to keep track of detail only gives me a headache.
Blessings,
Mary
> > >
>
> a.
averti
>
> averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:37A1E1...@hotmail.com...
> > sfoubert wrote:
> > >
> > > averti <ave...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:37A0E6...@hotmail.com...
> > > > sfoubert wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > I suppose so. No cure, though.
> > > > >
> > > > > ''Wasteful?'' I'm not sure I understand that part. Who is
> > > > wasting what?
> > >
> > > wasting a really good chance at life. Just my opinion.
> >
> > I can relate. I suppose I have a certain latent resentment
> > against that line of talk, because I spent my entire younger
> > life ''wasting'' myself 8). According to whoever felt
> > empowered to offer an opinion.
>
> Yeah I think a lot of us endured that kind of talk for a lot of
> reasons. What I experienced may or may not have been
> wasteful who knows, but it did bring me to where I am now and
> I am liking that spot. It works for me. I do at times wish it had
> come a little sooner, but its good its here.
I'm on board with that. Besides, if we didn't have all that
backlog of mistakes, false trails, burns and scars, etc. ,
what would we have to contrast the present with?
>
> >
> > >I have experienced
> > > a lot of the negative side of borderline behavior - but those
> individuals
> > > were also
> > > very very intelligent and talented individuals. It was their negative
> > > behavior that
> > > repelled people like bug spray. Its seems to be either terribly
> enchanting
> > > behavior or
> > > awful rage.
> >
> > That's it. I'm not a terribly profound case (any more) but
> > I can testify from back experience that it DOES get to be
> > where, at the top of the swing, I love you so much I can't
> > think about anything else, and at the bottom, I could see you
> > shot down in the street and not bat an eyelash 8(.
>
> Since I have evened out my life somewhat at this stage, I find
> that swing hard to deal with but bearable, I don't feel responsible anymore.
That's good. Since you DO deal--which is no trivial thing--then
at least the guilt part is no longer valid.
One of my favorite answers to ''How could you DO this to me?!!''
is ''It takes a great effort NOT to do it.''
> But I do understand the dynamics. As a child it was devestating to deal
> with.
> It was one of the keys to my dissociative problems. Dealing with that as a
> child
> teaches you that love is not a consistent thing, that it can change on a
> dime.
Yep. Once engraved on your little soul, very hard to rectify.
>
> In my adult life, I find that a person with that swing can be the most fun
> in the
> world to be around most of the time. Life is never ever dull and you laugh
> a lot. For me I have
> to set up boundaries though and I have to keep them and not put that burden
> on
> them. When the downswing comes - I keep my distance until it swings back
>
That seems to be the way to go. You more or less HAVE to police
yourself because nobody else knows as much about you--firsthand--
as you do. (Other than in the case of delusions, of course 8)).
> > >
> > > Always love you Mr. a. But then I don't have to live with you 24/7. I
> > > just get to enjoy
> > > the wonderful wisdom you inject here.... not to mention the laughs.
> > >
> >
> > Important point 8). (Not whay you like about me so much as
> > the ''live with'' part.) I've only ever had one ''live with''
> > relationship and that one is ususually elastic. it's almost
> > as if not being able to carry on long-term relationships
> > is a blessing in disguise. Keeps the investment low and the
> > clashes minimal.
>
> I think it is important that you know that in yourself and have found
> a mate who can deal with it and that you are dealing with it and not
> denying it. Humans are such complex and unique individuals. No
> one way of being seems wrong to me, I think the key is what you do
> with what you have. I think denying that you have the capcity to inflict
> pain makes it uncontrollable. If that makes sense.
>
Sure does. And if I don't naturally ''care'' as much as I
maybe should, then I artificially care. If THAT makes sense.
> > >
> > > Yep - it suppliles the intensity and the concentration of self to be
> able to
> > > create amazing
> > > and unique works but it also has its price.
> > >
> >
> > That about covers it.
>
> Yeah I think. The fear to excel in an area is not there. Because of the
> unique focus inside.
> I know I am not explaining my feelings well here, but I envy that ability,
> it takes far more
> focus for me to be sure that I am creating something that is good and that
> lack of focus or
> fear holds back my creativity.
>
> >
> > > The information filtering about how the disorder is formed is also sad
> and
> > > lonely if it is in fact accurate
> > >
> >
> > Today's information is ''accurate'' until tomorrow's re-writes
> > it 8).
>
> Aint that the truth ............ like the weather down here, wait five
> minutes and it
> will change.
>
> Nice talking with you Mr. a.
>
Always Ms Cri
sfoubert
a particular issue and a particular disorder. If you wish to make it a
personal
attack on me feel free its a free net but I don't think I'm going to bother
to
read what you say anymore - its not really productive to the conversation
here and its awfully negative.
Crisis
shardik <Mnemo...@xxxxxworldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:01bedad6$a347c9c0$e7994d0c@sarkid...
> sfoubert <sfou...@bcm.tmc.edu> wrote in article
> <7nsg0v$d...@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu>...
>
> > > Nor am I a psych. Nor does anyone have to be a psych in order to
> figure
ar
sfoubert
> What is even more important I get to do what I love and work with
> people.
Yep I know what you mean - the way its turned out for me, I get to work
with computers,
food and people. Three of my favorite things. I've always love to paint
and sculpt and now
I am working with color and texture from food and flowers. A new approach
and fun. And
the neatest part is that people want them. Wow!!
Of course, anyone who knows me knows that I would love working with food.
But in this
instance I am not eating it but playing with it. And to think my mother
told me never to
play with my food. Heh - little did she know there was money to be made
there.
If I were to use one word, I guess I am an "encourager". I help
> people believe in themselves.
That is truly important and most people don't know how to do that.
It definitely is a learned thing. Good for you!
The thrill and gratification of finally
> doing what I want makes the past just a bump in the road.
yep you hardly feel the jolt at all huh?
I appreciate
> life so much more than if it all came easy. I also know what it is like
> to be human and make lots of mistakes. It sure helps in relating to
> clients.
Yeah I think making mistakes and being able to forgive yourself and go
on is a very good thing to be able to relate and pass on to others. On
the whole I think people handle mistakes very badly, like its an all or
nothing thing rather than a teaching tool. How do you know what works
if you don't experience what doesn't work. If you are'nt making mistakes
you aren't growing. Just my two cents on the issue.
Crisis
>
> Blessings,
> Mary
> >
> > >
> > > > > a.
sfoubert
> sfoubert wrote:
> > Yeah I think a lot of us endured that kind of talk for a lot of
> > reasons. What I experienced may or may not have been
> > wasteful who knows, but it did bring me to where I am now and
> > I am liking that spot. It works for me. I do at times wish it had
> > come a little sooner, but its good its here.
>
> I'm on board with that. Besides, if we didn't have all that
> backlog of mistakes, false trails, burns and scars, etc. ,
> what would we have to contrast the present with?
Yep - I have my share of those - sometimes I think more than
the average share. Its made me a bit wiser than the average Joe
or Joess. Easy to size up whether or not what you want to accomplish
will work.
> >
> > > That's it. I'm not a terribly profound case (any more) but
> > > I can testify from back experience that it DOES get to be
> > > where, at the top of the swing, I love you so much I can't
> > > think about anything else, and at the bottom, I could see you
> > > shot down in the street and not bat an eyelash 8(.
> >
> > Since I have evened out my life somewhat at this stage, I find
> > that swing hard to deal with but bearable, I don't feel responsible
anymore.
>
> That's good. Since you DO deal--which is no trivial thing--then
> at least the guilt part is no longer valid.
>
> One of my favorite answers to ''How could you DO this to me?!!''
> is ''It takes a great effort NOT to do it.''
I understand that my friend - I wonder about myself because I do - but I
do.... LOLOL
My response in my head to the "how could you do that to me" question
is often - "you don't really want to hear the answer to that"
>
> > But I do understand the dynamics. As a child it was devestating to
deal
> > with.
> > It was one of the keys to my dissociative problems. Dealing with that
as a
> > child
> > teaches you that love is not a consistent thing, that it can change on a
> > dime.
>
> Yep. Once engraved on your little soul, very hard to rectify.
It has been a lifetime challenge. Truely.
In matters of the heart I am a coward. I freely admit that. I'm getting
good at being a friend - thats progress, but the other stuff is still
scary territory for me after all the therapy.
>
> >
> > In my adult life, I find that a person with that swing can be the most
fun
> > in the
> > world to be around most of the time. Life is never ever dull and you
laugh
> > a lot. For me I have
> > to set up boundaries though and I have to keep them and not put that
burden
> > on
> > them. When the downswing comes - I keep my distance until it swings
back
> >
>
> That seems to be the way to go. You more or less HAVE to police
> yourself because nobody else knows as much about you--firsthand--
> as you do. (Other than in the case of delusions, of course 8)).
For me I had to determine exactly what I had control over or actually wanted
control over. The answer to that was me. So I went with it. One thing I
have
learned along this journey, as you know cause you have been there part of
the
way, is my limits and where I am in a situation. Local control and global
control
have been important things for me to learn.
> > I think it is important that you know that in yourself and have found
> > a mate who can deal with it and that you are dealing with it and not
> > denying it. Humans are such complex and unique individuals. No
> > one way of being seems wrong to me, I think the key is what you do
> > with what you have. I think denying that you have the capcity to
inflict
> > pain makes it uncontrollable. If that makes sense.
> >
>
> Sure does. And if I don't naturally ''care'' as much as I
> maybe should, then I artificially care. If THAT makes sense.
Yes I do. And I think that shows a great deal of inside kindness. It
is responding to a need that is there that you may not have but you
care on whatever level you can about the person who has that need
enough to do that.
People, it seems to me, care about each other and things in different
ways. None is better than the other. We do what we can with what
has formed in us from our experience - each being individual. Expecting
another to have the same feelings and reactions you do I think is folly.
>
.
> > Nice talking with you Mr. a.
> >
>
> Always Ms Cri
:-)
sfoubert
Prism Collective <sava...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:37a574ee...@news.earthlink.net...
>
> Gee Crisis I wish YOU would learn to us it. Killfile is a friend to
> all of us. Please learn to use yours.
kait you need to stop this here and on irc - its tiresome. Get a grip.
learn some control.
>
> Kaitlyn
>
> >
> >
> >:-)
> >
>
> Visit my Website at:
> http://members.xoom.com/kaitlynw/
>
mary w. spencer
>
> > What is even more important I get to do what I love and work with
> > people.
>
> with computers,
> food and people. Three of my favorite things. I've always love to paint
> and sculpt and now
> I am working with color and texture from food and flowers. A new approach
> and fun. And
> the neatest part is that people want them. Wow!!
I asked in another post for you to tell me about this, especially
playing in your food that end up being bought by customers.........errr,
ahhhhh, hmmmmmmmm. :)
Of course, anyone who knows me knows that I would love working with
food.
> But in this
> instance I am not eating it but playing with it. And to think my mother
> told me never to
> play with my food. Heh - little did she know there was money to be made
> there.
You will tell me and not keep me in suspense, won't you?
If I were to use one word, I guess I am an "encourager". I help
> > people believe in themselves.
>
> That is truly important and most people don't know how to do that.
> It definitely is a learned thing. Good for you!
It is a lot like watching children when they discover they can walk or
build with blocks or any other developmental task. It is just pure
delight when clients find they can make decisions, change circumstances,
get better jobs........
> The thrill and gratification of finally
> > doing what I want makes the past just a bump in the road.
>
> yep you hardly feel the jolt at all huh?
I had a lot of bitterness and blame to work out of.....toward my mother
mainly. It ended up accepting that I would not be part of the inner
circle of my family of origin. But, wouldn't you know, when I finally
gave up on them my own family and friends were there for me. My
mom-in-law has certainly been more of a mother than my original. We are
very different but she believes in me and that makes a big difference.
I appreciate
> > life so much more than if it all came easy. I also know what it is like
> > to be human and make lots of mistakes. It sure helps in relating to
> > clients.
>
> Yeah I think making mistakes and being able to forgive yourself and go
> on is a very good thing to be able to relate and pass on to others. On
> the whole I think people handle mistakes very badly, like its an all or
> nothing thing rather than a teaching tool.
That truth was a hard one for me to learn but I believe that mistakes
are very helpful as a way to learn and most mistakes are not even
disaesters. Even my failed two marraiges makes me more appreciative of
my present husband and I saw things in him I would have missed earlier
in life.
How do you know what works
> if you don't experience what doesn't work. If you are'nt making mistakes
> you aren't growing. Just my two cents on the issue.
No, that is really a 2 million dollar piece of truth. Did you know that
most millionaires had at least two bankruptcies before their successful
enterprise? I hope you make a success in your company.
You know, I was really glad when you wrote this time. I know we were not
very friends when I left and hoped you wouldn't hold it against me. I
have a very quick turnover on past anger. I forget differences and
fights overnite and am so glad you do to. It is good to have you to talk
to without worrying about saying something wrong. I hate living like
that. This has been a very interesting and worthwhile
conversation.....thanks.
Mary
Crisis
> >
> > Blessings,
> > Mary
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > > a.
sfoubert
mary w. spencer <st...@caller.infi.net> wrote in message
news:37A282...@caller.infi.net...
> sfoubert wrote:
Actually I reread what I wrote and I wasn't clear I fill the fruit and
veggie and herb bottles
with vinegar and the flower bottles with oil. They are not for human
consumption but are
decoration or art. I described the process in the other post and won't bore
folks with
it here again.
>
> Of course, anyone who knows me knows that I would love working with
> food.
> > But in this
> > instance I am not eating it but playing with it. And to think my mother
> > told me never to
> > play with my food. Heh - little did she know there was money to be made
> > there.
>
> You will tell me and not keep me in suspense, won't you?
I did I did!!! but you have to look in the other post. ;-)
>
> If I were to use one word, I guess I am an "encourager". I help
> > > people believe in themselves.
> >
> > That is truly important and most people don't know how to do that.
> > It definitely is a learned thing. Good for you!
>
> It is a lot like watching children when they discover they can walk or
> build with blocks or any other developmental task. It is just pure
> delight when clients find they can make decisions, change circumstances,
> get better jobs........
yeah........... I remember when I took hold of my personal power. It was
an elightening and empowering moment. I still pinch myself.
>
> > The thrill and gratification of finally
> > > doing what I want makes the past just a bump in the road.
> >
> > yep you hardly feel the jolt at all huh?
>
> I had a lot of bitterness and blame to work out of.....toward my mother
> mainly.
Me too..... its rough when the one person who is supposed to be in
your corner is not. Makes the work kinda off kilter.
It ended up accepting that I would not be part of the inner
> circle of my family of origin. But, wouldn't you know, when I finally
> gave up on them my own family and friends were there for me. My
> mom-in-law has certainly been more of a mother than my original. We are
> very different but she believes in me and that makes a big difference.
I found when I let go of them - other doors opened ..... it was amazing. I
think it wasn't until I did that that I was ready to see the other open
doors.
> > Yeah I think making mistakes and being able to forgive yourself and go
> > on is a very good thing to be able to relate and pass on to others. On
> > the whole I think people handle mistakes very badly, like its an all or
> > nothing thing rather than a teaching tool.
>
> That truth was a hard one for me to learn but I believe that mistakes
> are very helpful as a way to learn and most mistakes are not even
> disaesters. Even my failed two marraiges makes me more appreciative of
> my present husband and I saw things in him I would have missed earlier
> in life.
I believe that too. I made a lot of bloopers that were major, but it
taught me a lot, and I have retained the lessons and used them.
> How do you know what works
> > if you don't experience what doesn't work. If you are'nt making
mistakes
> > you aren't growing. Just my two cents on the issue.
>
> No, that is really a 2 million dollar piece of truth. Did you know that
> most millionaires had at least two bankruptcies before their successful
> enterprise? I hope you make a success in your company.
Oh no you mean I have to fail twice??? I don't know if I have the time!!!
>
> You know, I was really glad when you wrote this time. I know we were not
> very friends when I left and hoped you wouldn't hold it against me. I
> have a very quick turnover on past anger. I forget differences and
> fights overnite and am so glad you do to. It is good to have you to talk
> to without worrying about saying something wrong. I hate living like
> that. This has been a very interesting and worthwhile
> conversation.....thanks.
I kinda judge people on how they act at the time we are interacting.
Grudges
seem so wasteful and time consuming. I have enjoyed this thread a lot and
hope we
can continue it and hope some people can join in.
We don't have to agree on every issue to find areas of agreement that can
bring
us together. If I lived my life finding it necessary to agree with
everything everyone
said it would be turmoil. People have so many sides it is fun to explore
and see
your similarities.
Cri.
mary w. spencer
>
> mary w. spencer <st...@caller.infi.net> wrote in message
> news:37A282...@caller.infi.net...
> > sfoubert wrote:
>
> Actually I reread what I wrote and I wasn't clear I fill the fruit and
> veggie and herb bottles
> with vinegar and the flower bottles with oil. They are not for human
> consumption but are
> decoration or art. I described the process in the other post and won't bore
> folks with
> it here again.
One question, how do you arrange things in the bottles in even patterns?
I see these creations with rows that swirl and wonder how you keep them
in place? Do you use long tweezers? I usually get vinegar and put chili
peppers in it or garlic. Not for show, but for flavor.
SNIP SNIP SNIP........BUSY SCISSORS......
> yeah........... I remember when I took hold of my personal power. It was
> an elightening and empowering moment. I still pinch myself.
I think there is a book with a title, "Surprised by Joy" and that is how
I feel. I never thought life could be this fulfilling.
> I had a lot of bitterness and blame to work out of.....toward my
mother
> > mainly.
>
> Me too..... its rough when the one person who is supposed to be in
> your corner is not. Makes the work kinda off kilter.
What is hard to get to is that a lot of it was abuse, but for most of my
life I thought I deserved it. Now I know it isn't right to force enemas
on a child or never say to her, "I love you". How much I yearned to hear
those words. No wonder I turned to a boy for that. There will always be
that underlying need for approval and that is what has been a hangup
here. I really did want EVERYONE to like me. Sigh.........
I have done a lot of thinking and some of the insightful criticisms
helped me understand that my effort to be all things to all people felt
like betrayal to others. What a mess it created. That mother in their
lives pretended the torture and abuse wasn't happening either and they
suffered in the hands of abusers with no one protecting them. I was that
mother reincarnate to some of the people here. THat is very painful to
see.
> I found when I let go of them - other doors opened ..... it was amazing. I
> think it wasn't until I did that that I was ready to see the other open
> doors.
That is a real mystery........you have to shut the one door before the
other will open....I would love to have someone expand on that!!!!
> > > Yeah I think making mistakes and being able to forgive yourself and go
> > > on is a very good thing to be able to relate and pass on to others. On
> > > the whole I think people handle mistakes very badly, like its an all or
> > > nothing thing rather than a teaching tool.
>
> > How do you know what works
> > > if you don't experience what doesn't work. If you are'nt making
> mistakes
> > > you aren't growing. Just my two cents on the issue.
> >
> > No, that is really a 2 million dollar piece of truth. Did you know that
> > most millionaires had at least two bankruptcies before their successful
> > enterprise? I hope you make a success in your company.
>
> Oh no you mean I have to fail twice??? I don't know if I have the time!!!
Naw.....you already did all the major failing in other areas of your
life so now you are ready to flat-out succeed.
> You know, I was really glad when you wrote this time. I know we were
not
> > very friends when I left and hoped you wouldn't hold it against me. I
> > have a very quick turnover on past anger. I forget differences and
> > fights overnite and am so glad you do to. It is good to have you to talk
> > to without worrying about saying something wrong. I hate living like
> > that. This has been a very interesting and worthwhile
> > conversation.....thanks.
>
> I kinda judge people on how they act at the time we are interacting.
> Grudges
> seem so wasteful and time consuming. I have enjoyed this thread a lot and
> hope we
> can continue it and hope some people can join in.
AMEN-Mary
mary w. spencer
> > sfoubert wrote:
> > >
> >
> > One question, how do you arrange things in the bottles in even patterns?
> > I see these creations with rows that swirl and wonder how you keep them
> > in place? Do you use long tweezers? I usually get vinegar and put chili
> > peppers in it or garlic. Not for show, but for flavor.
> >
> > SNIP SNIP SNIP........BUSY SCISSORS......
>
> feel for how it lands in the bottle or how you dry them and how
> they reabsorb the vinegar as to how they end up placed in the
> bottle. you can make them free form or geometric depending
> on how you cut the fruit or veg before you dry it and how you layer it
> in the bottle.
I am not one to buy too many kitchen decorations but those kind all add
to the adventure in cooking. Someday we will redo the whole area,
knocking out walls, expanding the cooking area, putting in an island,
etc. I would like to have my garden just off the kitchen so I can go out
and snip parsley, herbs, and veggies. I have a lot of old cookbooks and
enjoy trying new things. When you expand your marketing area you can
tell me where I can get your creations?
> > > yeah........... I remember when I took hold of my personal power. It
> was
> > > an elightening and empowering moment. I still pinch myself.
> >
> > I think there is a book with a title, "Surprised by Joy" and that is how
> > I feel. I never thought life could be this fulfilling.
>
> Great title - I will have to take a look at that one, but it is a surprise
> when
> it falls together and you all of a sudden are accomplishing the things
> you had longed to. And of course great joy.
One of the men in the offender group was a loser in all catagories but
now grows butterflies and has invented some things. He is so thrilled
that he now is producing and living a clean life he is a joy to listen
to. My son invented a brake kit that is being marketed, another son has
several ideas that he wants to manufacture. I think those of you who
create your own things have a special joy in seeing it come alive.
> > I had a lot of bitterness and blame to work out of.....toward my
> > mother
> > > > mainly.
> > >
> > > Me too..... its rough when the one person who is supposed to be in
> > > your corner is not. Makes the work kinda off kilter.
>
> >
> > What is hard to get to is that a lot of it was abuse, but for most of my
> > life I thought I deserved it.
>
> That is always the truth - that is how abuse is given usually - under the
> light of rightiousness. Isn't it. I am doing this for your good. To
> enlighten
> you. To make you see what is right or wrong. Usually it is to justify
> "bad"
> behavior, behavior used to control another and make them feel responsible
> for their own abuse and absolve the abuser of responsibility. After all
> they are "helping"
>
> Now I know it isn't right to force enemas
> > on a child
>
> Yuck - that was a big part of my childhood. Why? What was that
> about??? Looking back it seems somehow sickly sexual.
It propably was according to all the studies I read on child abuse. I
don't think my mother would have recognized it, but I remember her smile
as I squirmed and begged for mercy. In later years she complained about
my father's lack of interest in sex.
The justification for doing it was that we were suppossed to have a
bowel movement everyday and we might get toxins built up if we kept it
inside. My family was very anal retentive and both parents took
Metamucil every day................. THey are still anal retentive and
it is written on their tight-lipped faces......my sisters and brother,
my mother. My husband said that was the first thing he noticed when he
saw their picture. They have never met him and we have been married 11
years. I think they gave up on me after my second divorce?
> or never say to her, "I love you". How much I yearned to hear
> > those words. No wonder I turned to a boy for that. There will always be
> > that underlying need for approval and that is what has been a hangup
> > here. I really did want EVERYONE to like me. Sigh....
>
> They are just not going to. That if nothing else is a given. Its hard when
> people don't like you. I guess how they present it to you is what can hurt.
> Here recently for me it has been particularly painful, but I understand the
> dynamics. Finally at long last I know the only person I can adjust is me
> and
> I have to know when to step back and look elsewhere for support in my life
> and not endlessly try to convince people you are a viable human when they
> are screaming otherwise at you. I guess its the hatred and the need to
> totally crush an opponent verbally here that confuses me. But then a lot in
> life confuses me, I don't have to understand it, just know when its best for
> me to move back..
That has been rough on you. There was a time I might have said similar
things to you, but I don't feel that way anymore. We were both testy
with each other before.
> I have done a lot of thinking and some of the insightful criticisms
> > helped me understand that my effort to be all things to all people felt
> > like betrayal to others.
>
> Yep sometimes our best intentions can be painful to someone or other.
> Instead of just a calm discussion a stream of hatred comes out and it
> is more a transferrence process I think than about you really. No one here
> (or
> not many) have seen the smile in our eyes when we are glad nor seen the
> glow happiness can put on our face. They haven't seen our homes or what
> we create or even the expression on our faces when we see something sad.
> They have not seen into us. They merely see what they picture us to be
> based
> on what our words trigger in them based on their experiences and react to us
> accordingly -
> do you see how much margin for error there is there? We are guilty of it
> too. I guess its
> human.
Yes, this medium is frought with opportunities to misjudge. I don't
think I realized how much I depend on the facial expressions, tone
inflections, and body language until after very positive, from the heart
statements were read exactly opposite when posted here. After they show
up on the screen they were magnified into a major crime. That is why it
was such a shock. I never get that reaction in real life.
> What a mess it created. That mother in their
> > lives pretended the torture and abuse wasn't happening either and they
> > suffered in the hands of abusers with no one protecting them. I was that
> > mother reincarnate to some of the people here.
>
> That was brave and foolish of you at the same time. That transference
> thing can be a powerful force and sometimes a dangerous one. There
> is a lot of anger boiled up in some folk and I guess its good that it can
> come out here but years and years of pain can make it very ugly when
> it emerges and very hard to deal with when you are not the cause of it.
With what we talk about in this post may help people to realize I carry
no grudges and wish no retaliation on ANYONE. I feel at peace with what
happened in the past and want to engage anyone who is interested in
sharing.
I admire you for trying and I kind of feel that you will have more
success
> in real life with it with the young children you are working with rather
> than
> here. Bless your heart for what you are doing with your career.
I am the one benefiting because the kids are transparently opening up.
That look of trust and love is worth any effort.
THat is very painful to
> > see.
> > > I found when I let go of them - other doors opened ..... it was amazing.
> I
> > > think it wasn't until I did that that I was ready to see the other open
> > > doors.
>
> >
> > That is a real mystery........you have to shut the one door before the
> > other will open....I would love to have someone expand on that!!!!
> I have found that when I shut that other door - the one with all the
> messed up signals and twisted logic, the silence allowed me to
> think clearly about where I needed to go and what I wanted to do.
> I didn't close the door on the wisdom I had gain from the experiences
> I had had, just the twisted judgments of me and life in general. I looked
> for my own
> interpretations of those things. I found they were more trustable and
> workable.
That's good, I like that! When I let go of the bitterness and blame I
felt like I was walking on water. In fact, I had a dream that I really
did walk on water and it seemed so easy. Recently I had another dream
and it also was lovely and uplifting.
> > > Oh no you mean I have to fail twice??? I don't know if I have the
> time!!!
> >
> > Naw.....you already did all the major failing in other areas of your
> > life so now you are ready to flat-out succeed.
>
> Cool!!! I like the sound of that, mind if I hold on to it a while and run
> with it???
You go girl.........I will cheer you on.......where's the pom-poms?
> > > I kinda judge people on how they act at the time we are interacting.
> > > Grudges
> > > seem so wasteful and time consuming. I have enjoyed this thread a lot
> and
> > > hope we
> > > can continue it and hope some people can join in.
Good deal, I would like to hear from others too.
AMEN-Mary
>
> Back attcha
>
> Cri
mary w. spencer
>
> In <37A34D...@caller.infi.net>, mary w. spencer <st...@caller.infi.net>
> said:
>
> > I have done a lot of thinking and some of the insightful criticisms
> > helped me understand that my effort to be all things to all people felt
> > lives pretended the torture and abuse wasn't happening either and they
> > suffered in the hands of abusers with no one protecting them. I was that
> > see.
>
> Posted & Emailed
>
> I cannot ... NOT respond to this.
>
> *tears*
>
> ((((((((((( mary ))))))))))))))) hugs if accepted and i will understand if
> they are not
Yes, of course they are accepted from you, Azure. I care that I hurt you
and reach out an return that hug..((((((((((Azure))))))))))))))).
>
> You said in a previous post that i had made false witness against you. It
> is true in a very real way: what i told was not the full truth about you.
Thank you for that gift of healing. I am overwhelmed and very much in
awe that you would offer that up.
>
> I had the perception that you knowingly backed Liz in a lie that hurt some
> people, and i was hurting for them... but also hurting for myself, because I
> didn't know if people would even tell the truth for me, much less lie for
> me. I hurt for me, because I felt so much less loved.
That was an awful wound to carry around and I hope I can make up for
it.There is so much I did and said that put you outside the circle of
love.
The one who doesn't
> matter. The forgotten one in the corner, again.
Please, please, let me know if you feel that way again. I will not do
that to you on purpose. You were never meant to be shoved aside.
> The full truth about you... is obvious, in your post here, your posts to
> celeste, your posts all over.
Whew, I am glad you heard and could believe that I care about you.
> You have the gift of making people feel heard. Furthermore, you gave me a
> huge chunk of healing and freedom from the nightmarish mindfuck shit that
> happened with my mother... simply by listening and being "you."
Then, if nothing else happened on this ng, that makes it worthwhile. You
bore needless pain for too long and you did not deserve to be set free
of that.
> You gave me that. And that is the truth about you that i didn't say.
>
> And for that ... and for causing you pain ... i'm sorry.
Apology accepted and thank you for telling me. I am filled with emotion
and the tears of joy come. That you would even share this is awesome.
Your words are one of the best things that has ever happened to me.
Blessings and full acceptance,
Mary
> Welcome back.
>
> azure
> ______________________________________________________
> The sweetest thing in all my life has been the longing--
> to reach the Mountain,
> to find the place where all the beauty came from.
> -- C. S. Lewis, "Till We Have Faces"
>
> --
> For more information about this posting service, contact:
> he...@asarian-host.org -- for all info about our server.
> If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
>
> http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html
mary w. spencer
>
> Mary,
> It's good to see you and crisis talking like this. And it's
> interesting too.
Thank you for noticing and it is good to find a common ground we share.
I hope you will join in at any time, in this or another topic.
Blessings,
Mary
>
> Kaitlyn
banshee_howl
>The full truth about you... is obvious, in your post here,
>your posts to celeste, your posts all over.
hi azure.
it's such a complicated emotional labyrinth we live in
sometimes, isn't it?
I was out today and i observed an older gentleman bringing
his tiny dog up to a much larger one, an introduction type
of thing. I immediately thought...what a fool, doesn't he
know the bigger dog might regard the smaller one as nothing
more than a hors d'oeuvre?
It reminded me of this guy - is it maslow? - anyway he
develped a theory based on the hierarchy of needs, the
point being that we need to supply our basic needs first,
before we are free to begin going about fulfilling the ones
not as necessary for day to day survival. In other words,
if you have an empty belly that will be #1 on your short
list of things to resolve...if you do, then it might be
shelter, have that then it might be love, and have love, it
might be spirituality, and so on.
He also said we develop a basic trust, or mistrust, of the
world around the age of two-three. It defines how we view
the world...as a hospitable or inhospitable place.
So I watched this guy trying to introduce little dog to big
dog and the first thing that came to my mind was that it
was putting little dog in the vulnerable position of being
attacked.
The man who did it obviously thought he was giving his
little guy an opportunity - maybe he even had an
expectation that there would be a positive outcome!! Egads!!
I think we tend to make expectations on others based on
what our feeling about the *world out there* is.
Some of us are always en garde for attack. I'd fit into
that category. I see sinister and dangerous overtones to
many interactions. I expect to be used.
It hampers my ability to trust, to forgive, to allow others
to be human as I want to allow myself to be.
I guess the point is that acceptance is the greatest gift i
can give or i can get....it isn't about me being perfect at
all. It's about someone loving me in spite of myself.
That would have to be my cardinal rule with people in the
hopes that one day i learn it and internalize it for my own
self, as well.
The heart that was wounded long ago has long since been
wounding others, or something like that. Betrayal,
neglect, violence, being left naked by those who are
supposed to protect us...it isn't easy to live through. It
leaves a mark. It's easy to be reminded.
Don't be so hard on yourself. Sometimes friends disagree,
misinterperate, they attribute things that belong to
others. That's why intimate relationships are so much more
potentially hurtful. They matter more.
I would hope that any disagreement we would EVER have would
be immediately regarded as a bump in the road as opposed to
the edge of a cliff, you know? You are worth it, so am i,
and so is mary and many others......
love jean
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
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sfoubert
> azure wrote:
> > > And for that ... and for causing you pain ... i'm sorry.
>
> Apology accepted and thank you for telling me. I am filled with emotion
> and the tears of joy come. That you would even share this is awesome.
> Your words are one of the best things that has ever happened to me.
>
> Blessings and full acceptance,
Awwwww............. shucks............................. I just love a happy
ending!!!
Crisis - snuffling a little. Grabs a hanky.
mary w. spencer
> > sfoubert wrote:
> . When you expand your marketing area you can
> > tell me where I can get your creations?
>
> appropriately colored
> veggies and make a couple up for you. Just tell me what you want and how
> tall you
> want the bottle. Or you could choose the bottles yourself and ship them to
> me and I
> will design something. No problem
> >
That would be great! I love reds, purples, blues, green accents.
Surprise me! email me your address so I can pay you up front. I can
hardly wait to see them.
Thank you,
Mary
mary w. spencer
> > celeste, your posts all over.
>
>
> > You have the gift of making people feel heard. Furthermore, you gave me a
> > huge chunk of healing and freedom from the nightmarish mindfuck shit that
> > happened with my mother... simply by listening and being "you."
>
> Then, if nothing else happened on this ng, that makes it worthwhile.
You
> bore needless pain for too long and you did
> of that.
>
> > You gave me that. And that is the truth about you that i didn't say.
> >
>
> Apology accepted and thank you for telling me. I am filled with emotion
> and the tears of joy come. That you would even share this is awesome.
> Your words are one of the best things that has ever happened to me.
>
> Blessings and full acceptance,
>
mary w. spencer
> > sfoubert wrote:
> >
> > One of the men in the offender group was a loser in all catagories but
> > now grows butterflies and has invented some things. He is so thrilled
> > that he now is producing and living a clean life he is a joy to listen
> > to. My son invented a brake kit that is being marketed, another son has
> > several ideas that he wants to manufacture. I think those of you who
> > create your own things have a special joy in seeing it come alive.
>
> what you evisioned. Sometimes
> I can't stop looking at them, I don't want to have them leave the house.
I think that is one of the charactoristics of a creative person. They
fall in love with their creation. I knew artists like that and they
would just about starve before they could bear to sell a painting. My
son has another thing to say about it. He said that once he creates he
does not want to bother with the details, it is in the creating that he
gets his satisfaction.
> >
> > > Now I know it isn't right to force enemas
> > > > on a child
> > >
> > > Yuck - that was a big part of my childhood. Why? What was that
> > > about??? Looking back it seems somehow sickly sexual.
> >
> > It propably was according to all the studies I read on child abuse. I
> > don't think my mother would have recognized it, but I remember her smile
> > as I squirmed and begged for mercy. In later years she complained about
> > my father's lack of interest in sex.
>
> I don't know what one has to do with the other, but now that you mention it
> my
> mother used to talk at length about my father's lack of interest in sex.
Okey, lets explore this angle. Enemas used in abuse are considered
sexual. Both of our mothers complained about the lack of sex in their
relationships. Women of that time would not dream of masturbating....it
was a big taboo. They did not have an outlet for their sexual
frustrations.
Another thing I ran across was an old medical doctors book on the
marital relationship. Masturbation was attributed to all kinds of
diseases. Husbands, in his book, were to place their wives on a pedestal
and not corrupt their purity with thier vile habits! I mean this is
almost word for word.
My mother said that my father was glad when he hit his 40's because he
no longer had the sex drive. What a way to be short changed. My
daughter-in-law from Australia sent me some of the country's magazines
on request. They are so much bolder about sexuality. When she was a girl
she said there were articles about masturbation in the Junior Miss
magazine. She said it was common knowledge that the girl could satisfy
herself and didn't need a male to do it.
The man
> went literally for years without touching her or so she said. And the emema
> thing too, are
> these connected?
What do you think? It connects with what I have read on women abusing
their daughters. That is another area where sexual abuse is undereported
according to professionals in the field.
> The justification for doing it was that we were suppossed to have a
> > bowel movement everyday and we might get toxins built up if we kept it
> > inside. My family was very anal retentive and both parents took
> > Metamucil every day................. THey are still anal retentive and
> > it is written on their tight-lipped faces......my sisters and brother,
> > my mother. My husband said that was the first thing he noticed when he
> > saw their picture. They have never met him and we have been married 11
> > years. I think they gave up on me after my second divorce?
>
> Amazing isn't it??? How much pictures can tell you. And how people
> once entrenched in a way of thinking just don't move from there.
I think it is possible to get stuck along the way at almost any age. I
know 20's people who are rigid in their thinking. It is suppossed to be
the old folk who are no longer flexible, but it can happen at any age.
One psychologist told me that it was easy to get people to realize there
thinking error (stuck place) but difficult for them to leave the place
of habit and comfort.
> > > They are just not going to. That if nothing else is a given. Its hard
> when
> > > people don't like you. I guess how they present it to you is what can
> hurt.
> > > Here recently for me it has been particularly painful, but I understand
> the
> > > dynamics. Finally at long last I know the only person I can adjust is
> me
> > > and
> > > I have to know when to step back and look elsewhere for support in my
> life
> > > and not endlessly try to convince people you are a viable human when
> they
> > > are screaming otherwise at you. I guess its the hatred and the need to
> > > totally crush an opponent verbally here that confuses me. But then a
> lot in
> > > life confuses me, I don't have to understand it, just know when its best
> for
> > > me to move back..
> >
> > That has been rough on you. There was a time I might have said similar
> > things to you, but I don't feel that way anymore. We were both testy
> > with each other before.
>
> Yeah - thanks for that ...... I am a lot of things - short tempered at
> times, I have
> a sharp tounge that I need to watch, but I'm not mean and I am not how I
> have
> been assessed here by people who have never met me. Its amazing to me, but
> I guess we have all be guilty of it at some time or another. Just makes you
> very
> cautious about who you approach or what posts you answer anymor
I think that inspite of what has been happening it will bring some
clearer thinking and that this will have a sobbering effect. When all of
the air is cleared it should leave people with the desire to step back
and look at what was going on. Kind of a leveling or balancing. I am
hoping that those who are angry and or hurt will realize that they are
still welcome and if they feel like they don't want to talk to some,
there is no reason they have to.
> > > Yep sometimes our best intentions can be painful to someone or ther.
> > > Instead of just a calm discussion a stream of hatred comes out and it
> > > is more a transferrence process I think than about you really. No one
> here
> > > (or
> > > not many) have seen the smile in our eyes when we are glad nor seen the
> > > glow happiness can put on our face. They haven't seen our homes or what
> > > we create or even the expression on our faces when we see something sad.
> > > They have not seen into us. They merely see what they picture us to be
> > > based
> > > on what our words trigger in them based on their experiences and react
> to us
> > > accordingly -
> > > do you see how much margin for error there is there? We are guilty of
> it
> > > too. I guess its
> > > human.
>
> > Yes, this medium is frought with opportunities to misjudge. I don't
> > think I realized how much I depend on the facial expressions, tone
> > inflections, and body language until after very positive, from the heart
> > statements were read exactly opposite when posted here
>
> Yes I have experienced that a lot lately too. It is confusing at best and
> painful also
>
> . After they show
> > up on the screen they were magnified into a major crime. That is why it
> > was such a shock. I never get that reaction in real life.
>
> Me neither. Never. I generally have a day full of smiles and laughter in
> my interactions with people. I'm kinda the office clown - there are always
> weird talking and dancing toys and chocolate candy at my desk - its a
> place that is visited often by everyone. Sometimes things here are a shock
> yes, I understand that.
One of the things that I try for constantly is to see myself honestly. I
don't want to be so dense that I ignore how people are reacting to me.
Hopefully I will become better at seeing things through the eyes of
other people and not just depend upon my own judgements.
> > > That was brave and foolish of you at the same time. That transference
> > > thing can be a powerful force and sometimes a dangerous one. There
> > > is a lot of anger boiled up in some folk and I guess its good that it
> can
> > > come out here but years and years of pain can make it very ugly when
> > > it emerges and very hard to deal with when you are not the cause of it.
>
In this ng it is probably going to go on long after we lay our heads
down on our pillows for the last time. It is part of that nature that
drives the abused to turn around and become an abuser. What has happened
I think is the desire for power corrupted and this has shaken up people
to that realization. Less any of us get cocky, we only need to look at
history. Any of us can miss use power in certain situations. We need to
be tender and forgiving, not looking for fault or vengence.
> With what we talk about in this post may help people to realize I
carry
> > no grudges and wish no retaliation on ANYONE. I feel at peace with what
> > happened in the past and want to engage anyone who is interested in
> > sharing.
>
> I agree - some of my impressions of people have profoundly changed this
> time, but I don't think that that would preclude me from having a
> conversation
> with them or anyone and not have it be of benefit to me. I think exchanging
> information is always a chance for growth on my part.
There will always be posts I will stay away from for different reasons,
if for no other reason that the person may have shown they dislike me
and I don't want to be imposing on them. There are others that I will
probably seek out because I have followed with interest since I first
came. There is no reason to be lonely. The quieter ones can also do that
and address a post to those of us who enjoy a good conversation.
> >
> > I admire you for trying and I kind of feel that you will have more
> > success
> > > in real life with it with the young children you are working with rather
> > > than
> > > here. Bless your heart for what you are doing with your career.
> >
> > I am the one benefiting because the kids are transparently opening up.
> > That look of trust and love is worth any effort.
>
> The man who hired me in the job I have now told me that working within
> your passion often is far more beneficial to you than to others. I have
> found
> that to be true. Being able to excel at technical stuff, has done wonders
> for
> my self esteem and my outlook in general.
And how I envy that ability. You are much more employable than I am. The
technical skills are in such demand and I have zilch. Besides, I would
go crazy doing what you do, although you seem to have a wonderful
creative side that gives you balance.
> > > I have found that when I shut that other door - the one with all the
> > > messed up signals and twisted logic, the silence allowed me to
> > > think clearly about where I needed to go and what I wanted to do.
> > > I didn't close the door on the wisdom I had gain from the experiences
> > > I had had, just the twisted judgments of me and life in general. I
> looked
> > > for my own
> > > interpretations of those things. I found they were more trustable and
> > > workable.
> >
> > That's good, I like that! When I let go of the bitterness and blame I
> > felt like I was walking on water. In fact, I had a dream that I really
> > did walk on water and it seemed so easy. Recently I had another dream
> > and it also was lovely and uplifting.
>
> It can be a euphoric experience thats for sure. As for walking on water,
> you
> can get in trouble for saying stuff like that around here!!! ;-)
I know it sounded "messianic" but that is not what I experienced. It was
like nothing could stop me and nothing was too hard. It felt like solid
ground and there really wasn't any heaven/angels or other symbals in
that dream. I thought it might mean I could stay above the problems
instead of drowning in them like I had in the past. In fact, in the past
I have explained the problems as "drowning" and getting head pushed
under water every time I came up for air!
hee hee
Go ahead and laugh, I'll invite you into my dream and see if you can
walk on water! :)
> > You go girl.........I will cheer you on.......where's the pom-poms?
>
> Buffster has those - I wonder where she put them - HEY BUFF YOU GOT
> THE POM POMS????
I haven't heard from her in an awfully long time, she is another gifted
lady.
> > > can continue it and hope some people can join in.
> >
> > Good deal, I would like to hear from others too.
>
> me too!!!
>
> Cri
> >
Mary
> > >
> >
sfoubert
>
> One question, how do you arrange things in the bottles in even patterns?
> I see these creations with rows that swirl and wonder how you keep them
> in place? Do you use long tweezers? I usually get vinegar and put chili
> peppers in it or garlic. Not for show, but for flavor.
>
> SNIP SNIP SNIP........BUSY SCISSORS......
Mary - I'm gonna take a break from here. Seems like its similar to
stepping through the looking glass around here lately and I don't need
all the craziness, e-yelling and paranoia that seems to have taken over
I would however like to continue this discussion with you. Please email
me and add anyone else to the list that would like to be included. That
way I don't even have to open up the newsgroup.
Oh oh oh!!! I just found out I sold 8 peices so far this weekend. Cool
huh!!!
and I don't have the figures from today yet. All the pieces that went to
Fort
Worth sold. Amazing!!! They like them they really really like them. This
is fun!!!
See ya in email I hope.
Cri.
Jean
Collective) wrote:
>Mary,
> It's good to see you and crisis talking like this. And it's
>interesting too.
>
>Kaitlyn
>
Yeah, i'll chime in with my own "way to go guys" thoughts here too.
One never knows in life what will happen next! One of the reasons i'm
such a big fan of it. Life, i mean:)
jean
mary w. spencer
>
> >
> > One question, how do you arrange things in the bottles in even patterns?
> > I see these creations with rows that swirl and wonder how you keep them
> > in place? Do you use long tweezers? I usually get vinegar and put chili
> > peppers in it or garlic. Not for show, but for flavor.
> >
> > SNIP SNIP SNIP........BUSY SCISSORS......
>
> stepping through the looking glass around here lately and I don't need
> all the craziness, e-yelling and paranoia that seems to have taken over
> I would however like to continue this discussion with you. Please email
The craziness will calm down, I hope, but I will be glad to switch to
email.
> me and add anyone else to the list that would like to be included. That
> way I don't even have to open up the newsgroup.
>
> Oh oh oh!!! I just found out I sold 8 peices so far this weekend. Cool
> huh!!!
> and I don't have the figures from today yet. All the pieces that went to
> Fort
> Worth sold. Amazing!!! They like them they really really like them. This
> is fun!!!
Good for you......that must be exciting to see your creations fly out of
your hands to a new home.
See you in Etime.
Mary
mary w. spencer
>
> On Sun, 01 Aug 1999 23:18:31 GMT, sava...@earthlink.net (Prism
> Collective) wrote:
>
> >Mary,
> > It's good to see you and crisis talking like this. And it's
> >interesting too.
> >
> >Kaitlyn
> >
>
> Yeah, i'll chime in with my own "way to go guys" thoughts here too.
>
> One never knows in life what will happen next! One of the reasons i'm
> such a big fan of it. Life, i mean:)
You bet, some of the twists and turns in life end up taking us down
paths of discovery. THanks for your comments...........both Jean and
Prism Collective.
Blessings,
Mary