Re: Cat Stevens = Financial contributor to Hamas (Re:Thanks George for protecting us from Cat Stephens
BroJack
wrote:
>"Bobby Fischler" <franc...@yahoo.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:ae681794.04092...@posting.google.com...
>
>> Janet Reno and Clinton let Hamas raise over $20 million in the United
>> States during Clinton's reign. This was enough money to "buy" 800
>> Palestinian suicide bombers.
>
>Or more than a few secondhand jet airliners from sites like
>http://www.controller.com . After all, with all this "charity" money
>floating around, why go to hassle of hijacking an airliner for a kamikaze
>number when you can buy a flyable DC-10 for $600,000, a 727 for $400,000,
>etc. Akhmed wouldn't have too much trouble setting up a dummy "airfreight"
>company in the Caribbean or something.
Maybe Cat will take the "Peace Train" from now on.
Jack
Eric Cordian
>>> Janet Reno and Clinton let Hamas raise over $20 million in the United
>>> States during Clinton's reign. This was enough money to "buy" 800
>>> Palestinian suicide bombers.
There is both a political "Hamas" and military "Hamas," with a Chinese
Wall between them. This is similar to the the division between the Irish
Republican Army, and Shin Fein, the perfectly legal political arm of the
same movement.
This is necessary because the political Hamas has offices in many Arab
nations, and cannot be seen as launching military action from those
countries, which would violate local laws.
Accusing someone of "donating to Hamas," is deceptive, because one can
only donate to the charitable, political Hamas, not the one waging war
against the Zionist Entity from within the illegally occupied Palestinian
territories.
So the "donating to Hamas" issue, like most other issues of the
Neoconservatives, is yet another example of lying by omission and
innuendo.
--
Eric Michael Cordian 0+
O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
"Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
WayBackJack
<e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>BroJack <wind...@home.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Janet Reno and Clinton let Hamas raise over $20 million in the United
>>>> States during Clinton's reign. This was enough money to "buy" 800
>>>> Palestinian suicide bombers.
>
>There is both a political "Hamas" and military "Hamas,"
What a load of horseshit, Abdullah.
George Cox
>
> BroJack <wind...@home.net> wrote:
>
> >>> Janet Reno and Clinton let Hamas raise over $20 million in the United
> >>> States during Clinton's reign. This was enough money to "buy" 800
> >>> Palestinian suicide bombers.
>
> There is both a political "Hamas" and military "Hamas," with a Chinese
> Wall between them. This is similar to the the division between the Irish
> Republican Army, and Shin Fein, the perfectly legal political arm of the
> same movement.
Ha, ha. There is no "Chinese Wall" between the Irish Republican Army
and Sinn Fein. They work hand in glove.
Eric Cordian
> Ha, ha. There is no "Chinese Wall" between the Irish Republican Army
> and Sinn Fein. They work hand in glove.
They support the same goals. They may even approve of each others
activities.
However, in the final analysis, one is perfectly legal, and the other is
not, and there is sufficient sequestration of the illegal activities that
the legal entity can operate in the open without fear of being shut down
or arrested.
The same is true of Hamas, which with the exception of military activities
against the Zionist occupation carried out completely within the illegally
occupied territories, is an out in the open completely above board
charitable and political organization, which operates in a lot of Arab
countries, some of which have even made peace with the Zionist
Abomination.
The US definition of "terrorism" is sufficiently weasel-worded, that it
can be made to apply to pretty much anyone who exhibits hostility towards
the United States and its allies. Especially when you add in all the
"linked to", and "ties to" and other innuendo liberally applied to anyone
who criticizes US foreign policy.
It's not like those accused are given a day in court to defend themselves
against the allegations.
I've never held the view that people who strap explosives to themselves
and detonate in a crowded pizza shop are worse than people who fire
missiles into crowded civilian apartment buildings from helicopter
gunships. Even if the people with the better weapons also have the better
spin control.
I think it's silly that American citizens can join the Israeli army, serve
in the illegally occupied territories, and murder and torment Palestinians
with impunity, while someone giving a dollar to Hamas faces prosecution
and prison.
Eric Cordian
> Stand on the street and spout that in Jeruselem......please. Sometimes
> Eric you come off as a really niave net nut. Now is one of those times.
The fact that speaking the truth in Jeruselem would place ones safety at
risk is no more compelling than the fact that criticizing National
Socialism in front of Hitler and his generals would get you hanged with
piano wire.
Sometimes I wonder how people come up with this idea that truth is defined
by who wields the biggest club.
> I for one don't care. After 9/11 and all the rest of the stuff - I see
> a real threat and after having studied a bit about the various factions
> involved - I am very content with my government being politically
> incorrect and not sensitive. So sue me.
I'm sure it's all very entertaining. Until they come for you.
>> I've never held the view that people who strap explosives to themselves
>> and detonate in a crowded pizza shop are worse than people who fire
>> missiles into crowded civilian apartment buildings from helicopter
>> gunships. Even if the people with the better weapons also have the better
>> spin control.
> Which is why we are all blessed that you don't have any more political power
> than to rant on the internet.
True power is simply the ability to mold Matter, Energy, Space, and Time
according to ones Will.
All other forms of power flow from this basic one through various levels
of indirection. At the bottom of the long list is political power.
Political power only exists because those who wield power more directly
resist the urge to meddle. A fact politicians crossing the thin line
between oppressing the stupid, and threatening humanity itself, quickly
discover.
I am reminded of the amusing sentence in Robert Anton Wilson's
"Illuminatus" Trilogy. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was
something similar to "Do not force us to show you the kinds of weapons
enlightened minds can produce."
>> I think it's silly that American citizens can join the Israeli army, serve
>> in the illegally occupied territories, and murder and torment Palestinians
>> with impunity, while someone giving a dollar to Hamas faces prosecution
>> and prison.
> That be the breaks. But as I said - Cat's involvement goes beyond that
> of giving money to Hamas. I'm quite content for him to have his butt
> confined
> to London and not New York.
Well, his tribulations reek of political retaliation for his loud and
public non-support of the War in Iraq.
He is, after all, a long time peace activist. It's really no different
than the government trying to deport John Lennnon for his Vietnam
activities.
Eric Cordian
> For me it is also defined in the faces of the people who have lost so much
> and mourn and live in fear.
You know what they say in psychological circles. The major cause of
paranoia is guilt. You can't piss off the world without spending a lot of
time worrying about chickens coming home to roost.
>> > I for one don't care. After 9/11 and all the rest of the stuff - I see
>> > a real threat and after having studied a bit about the various factions
>> > involved - I am very content with my government being politically
>> > incorrect and not sensitive. So sue me.
>> I'm sure it's all very entertaining. Until they come for you.
> Old old old - net stuff there. Next you will be posting that tired old
> poem.
You mean Rev. Martin Niemoller's "tired old poem?"
> But hey - what do I expect from someone who mentions Hitler in posts.
There were lines even Hitler didn't dare cross. Napoleon spent a night
inside the Great Pyramid during his campaign in Egypt. He emerged pale
and shaken in the morning, and never spoke of his experiences.
>> True power is simply the ability to mold Matter, Energy, Space, and Time
>> according to ones Will.
> Like I said earlier - you have much to learn.
Perhaps, but not from you.
>> All other forms of power flow from this basic one through various levels
>> of indirection. At the bottom of the long list is political power.
>> Political power only exists because those who wield power more directly
>> resist the urge to meddle. A fact politicians crossing the thin line
>> between oppressing the stupid, and threatening humanity itself, quickly
>> discover.
> Well if this had anything to do with anything I said - I guess it might be
> interesting or not.
You were saying how wonderful it was that I did not wield "political
power."
>> I am reminded of the amusing sentence in Robert Anton Wilson's
>> "Illuminatus" Trilogy. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was
>> something similar to "Do not force us to show you the kinds of weapons
>> enlightened minds can produce."
> See above...
>> > That be the breaks. But as I said - Cat's involvement goes beyond that
>> > of giving money to Hamas. I'm quite content for him to have his butt
>> > confined
>> > to London and not New York.
>> Well, his tribulations reek of political retaliation for his loud and
>> public non-support of the War in Iraq.
> I am content - as I said - for anyone who studies and embraces Wahabi
> to be
> on a watch list.
You are content for travel by air to be controlled by a secret list, to
which anyone may be added at any time, for any reason, or for no reason at
all, which is not subject to any sort of review or due process given to
people inconvenienced by it, and smeared by public knowlege of their being
on it.
What's the difference between a secret "who can't fly" list, a "who can't
work" list, a "who can't open a bank account" list, or a "who can't own
property and stocks" list? Or for that matter, Nixon's "Enemies List?"
>> He is, after all, a long time peace activist. It's really no different
>> than the government trying to deport John Lennnon for his Vietnam
>> activities.
> Its been 30 some years since he wrote Peace Train. Wahabi - ain't peace
> train.
> I see it as kind of like Michael Corleone saying he was just a businessman
> and
> anyone who questions that hates Italians.
I see it as putting all Italians on a list, because you are worried about
Michael Corleone.
Eric Cordian
> Cat Stevens saga 'a spelling error'
> From correspondents in New York
> 26sep04
> CAT Stevens was deported from the United States because of a spelling
> error, with American officials confusing the former pop star with a
> man with a similar name on a "no-fly" list, Time magazine reported
> today.
Which is somewhat odd, because Homeland Security spokesrodents stated
after his deportation that they had recent specific intelligence that
indicated he was a threat.
For instance, according to CNN...
{Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge accused Yusuf Islam, the singer's
Muslim name, of having some unspecified relationship with terrorist
activity.
Ridge said the intelligence that put the singer's name on the list came
from outside the United States, but he would not reveal the source.
Homeland Security spokesman Garrison Courtney would only say "the
intelligence community has come into possession of additional information
that further heightens our concerns of Yusuf Islam."}
So it seems a bit late to do the "Oops, spelling error" bit.
Eric Cordian
> But hell, if I controlled the borders they would all be totally sealed - no
> way to sneak in and everyone checked one by one. The line would be so long
> that literally millions wouldn't bother. If *I ruled the world - there
> would be no "undocumented worker" problem and no other folks sneaking in.
So how exactly are these folks "sneaking in" different from you? What do
you think such absolute border control would accomplish in terms of
measurable social benefits? What problems in the United States do you
feel are due to illegal immigration?
In a world where places like Europe are moving towards open borders, what
makes you think your proposed solution is a better one.
Jack
<e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>BroJack <wind...@home.net> wrote:
>
>>>> Janet Reno and Clinton let Hamas raise over $20 million in the United
>>>> States during Clinton's reign. This was enough money to "buy" 800
>>>> Palestinian suicide bombers.
>Accusing someone of "donating to Hamas," is deceptive, because one can
>only donate to the charitable, political Hamas, not the one waging war
>against the Zionist Entity from within the illegally occupied Palestinian
>territories.
Ah yes, the charitable political Hamas that devotes much of its
estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services
network, which includes schools, orphanages, mosques, health care
clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.
It's know as winning the hearts and minds of the people AKA
propagandizing, to make suicide bombing of pizza parlors acceptable.
You leftists fall for the same bullshit as the Euro leftists of the
1930s, sitting in their coffehouses and asserting that appeasement of
Hitler was the appropriate course to follow.
Bro
Jack
<wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>But hell, if I controlled the borders they would all be totally sealed - no
>way to sneak in and everyone checked one by one. The line would be so long
>that literally millions wouldn't bother. If *I ruled the world - there
>would be no "undocumented worker" problem and no other folks sneaking in.
>
>Guess its good that I don't rule the world. ;-)
Don't know about the world, but it would be desirable if people with
your mindset would be controlling our borders.
Jack
Eric Cordian
>> You know what they say in psychological circles. The major cause of
>> paranoia is guilt.
> There is a world of difference between empathy and guilt. Like I said - you
> have a lot to learn.
So you keep telling me, in lieu of specific answers to the questions I
raise.
>> You are content for travel by air to be controlled by a secret list,
> (removal of those things which I didn't say and don't ascribe to the
> no fly list.)
> Yes definitely.
Whether you ascribe those things to the list is immaterial, as they are
certainly the rules of engagement presently in effect for it.
>> What's the difference between a secret "who can't fly" list, a "who can't
>> work" list, a "who can't open a bank account" list, or a "who can't own
>> property and stocks" list? Or for that matter, Nixon's "Enemies List?"
> Like I said you have a lot to learn - both about life and argument.
Saying "you have a lot to learn" everytime you don't wish to answer a
direct question, is pretty transparent.
>> I see it as putting all Italians on a list, because you are worried about
>> Michael Corleone.
> And I would expect that you would see it that way.
So, is this a "Help me, I can't stop typing" problem on your part? :)
Do you follow any particular form of Organized Superstition? Knowing
which one might help me place your responses in their proper context.
Eric Cordian
>>Accusing someone of "donating to Hamas," is deceptive, because one can
>>only donate to the charitable, political Hamas, not the one waging war
>>against the Zionist Entity from within the illegally occupied Palestinian
>>territories.
> Ah yes, the charitable political Hamas that devotes much of its
> estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services
> network, which includes schools, orphanages, mosques, health care
> clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.
So if they perform no good works, they are bad people, and if they perform
millions of dollars worth of good works, they are still bad people because
they are doing it with an ulterior motive.
Sounds like a heads I win, tails you lose, argument to me.
> It's know as winning the hearts and minds of the people AKA
> propagandizing, to make suicide bombing of pizza parlors acceptable.
Israel could stop pizza parlor bombing tomorrow, if they would negotiate
in good faith, and stop trying to steal other peoples land to rebuild
their imaginary Biblical empire.
There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United States
re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in the
United States either.
Let a thousand pizza parlors explode.
WayBackJack
<e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>In a world where places like Europe are moving towards open borders, what
>makes you think your proposed solution is a better one.
Some of those "places like Europe" are beginning to close their
borders although I expect the Frogs and a few other Euro countries
within the next 10 years to be wearing towels around their heads,
facing East 6 times a day,and listening to mullahs on Friday nights
proclaim that the infidels are the reason that the Muslim world has
been kept in the 7th century.
WayBackJack
<e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>Jack <bro...@windswept.org> wrote:
>
>>>Accusing someone of "donating to Hamas," is deceptive, because one can
>>>only donate to the charitable, political Hamas, not the one waging war
>>>against the Zionist Entity from within the illegally occupied Palestinian
>>>territories.
>
>> Ah yes, the charitable political Hamas that devotes much of its
>> estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services
>> network, which includes schools, orphanages, mosques, health care
>> clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.
>
>So if they perform no good works, they are bad people, and if they perform
>millions of dollars worth of good works, they are still bad people because
>they are doing it with an ulterior motive.
>
>Sounds like a heads I win, tails you lose, argument to me.
They're performing millions of dollars of good works to carry out
their goal of conversion ... enslavement ... or death.
It's a religious war, fool.
If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
>> It's know as winning the hearts and minds of the people AKA
>> propagandizing, to make suicide bombing of pizza parlors acceptable.
>
>Israel could stop pizza parlor bombing tomorrow, if they would negotiate
>in good faith, and stop trying to steal other peoples land to rebuild
>their imaginary Biblical empire.
But, but, but, let's hear your criticize the religious motives of the
barbarous Islamites who strap TNT to their pre-pubescent children in
the name of ALLAH .... who perform "honor killings" on their teenaged
daughters for "allowing" themselves to be raped .... who take great
joy in stomping each other on their Holiest day of the year ... who
behead civilians.
Let's hear you address the typical Friday night sermon in the
neighborhood mosques that are springing up all ove the US as we speak:
The infidels are responsible for our miserable lives.
>There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United States
>re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in the
>United States either.
Geo. should bring the troops home to wipe out the Islamic terrorist
cells in the US.
>Let a thousand pizza parlors explode.
Spoken like a true terrorist.
Bro
Eric Cordian
> They're performing millions of dollars of good works to carry out
> their goal of conversion ... enslavement ... or death.
I see no sign that moderate Islam is pursuing an agenda of conversion,
enslavement, or death.
> If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
Close, though. :)
>>Israel could stop pizza parlor bombing tomorrow, if they would negotiate
>>in good faith, and stop trying to steal other peoples land to rebuild
>>their imaginary Biblical empire.
> But, but, but, let's hear your criticize the religious motives of the
> barbarous Islamites who strap TNT to their pre-pubescent children in
> the name of ALLAH .... who perform "honor killings" on their teenaged
> daughters for "allowing" themselves to be raped .... who take great
> joy in stomping each other on their Holiest day of the year ... who
> behead civilians.
You are confusing a large number of things, some of which are more
artifacts of the backward communities in which they occur, than of Islam.
India has a big problem with honor killings in rural areas, for instance,
so it's hardly a Moslem invention.
The "Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" tale is Israeli propaganda, created
when they managed to photograph some little boy dressed in militant garb
at a party.
Anyone who is in occupied Iraq who is not a citizen of Iraq, is a
legitimate target. Particularly the individuals charged with rebuilding
the oil infrastructure so the US can steal Iraq's natural resources.
That's not to say beheading is a nice thing to do, but with 20,000
innocent civilians dead in an illegal war of aggression based on lies,
after a decade of bombing all their infrastructure flat, games with
inspectors/spies, and other stage-managed antics created from whole cloth
by the United States, you can't blame the Iraqi people for being just a
little bit pissed off.
> Let's hear you address the typical Friday night sermon in the
> neighborhood mosques that are springing up all ove the US as we speak:
> The infidels are responsible for our miserable lives.
I wasn't aware Moslems in the US led miserable lives.
>>There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United States
>>re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in the
>>United States either.
> Geo. should bring the troops home to wipe out the Islamic terrorist
> cells in the US.
>>Let a thousand pizza parlors explode.
> Spoken like a true terrorist.
I think it's not strange that pizza parlors explode, but that people who
support illegal occupation and human rights violations should ever have
thought they deserved pizza parlor sanctuary to begin with.
The idea that civilian populations bear no blame for the behavior of the
governments they place in power and support with their labor and dollars,
and that civilians should not be the targets of military force, is a very
recent and convenient invention by the West, largely because precision
weapons and limited conflicts have made it a potent propaganda tool
against adversaries, who often don't have the same luxury.
Besides, it's not like US forces won't blow a hole in any civilian who
gets in the way of some objective they wish to accomplish.
Eric Cordian
> ooops - a bit of anti-Semitism here.
Sorry, my criticism was about behavior, not about religion or ethnic
origin.
It's a common mistake to confuse the two. Often deliberate, in fact.
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt the first time.
So what form of Vengeful Sky-God Organized Superstition did you say you
practiced?
I've always believed in the Jesse Ventura view of religion myself, that it
is a crutch for the weak-minded.
Eric Cordian
> Some day when you seriously are seeking some answers and not
> knocking around pontificating on the net - you might get some answers
> from me. Until then, I don't really consider opening up my beliefs or
> feelings to someone who presents himself on the net as you do.
Your posts are not exactly leak-proof with regard to either your politics,
or your spiritual ideology.
Of course, neither are mine, but then, I tell my beliefs to anyone who
wants to listen, and quite frequently to people who don't. :)
Kc
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:1d0f5d9b16adbe86f...@asarian-host.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> That gives a reason as to why he wasn't stopped on the London end. I saw
> that a little bit a go on another site. However, does that mean he is not
> on the list at all?
>
> My opinion is - he ain't on any peace train anymore. I leave him sit in
> London.
>
> But hell, if I controlled the borders they would all be totally sealed -
> no
> way to sneak in and everyone checked one by one. The line would be so
> long
> that literally millions wouldn't bother. If *I ruled the world - there
> would be no "undocumented worker" problem and no other folks sneaking in.
Like those nasty folks from England about 400 years ago?
>
> Guess its good that I don't rule the world. ;-)
>
> "sloopy" <slo...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
> news:9807b6236bd4.1dab...@asarian-host.net...
>
>>
>> Eric Cordian <e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >
>> >You are content for travel by air to be controlled by a secret list, to
>> >which anyone may be added at any time, for any reason, or for no reason
> at
>> >all, which is not subject to any sort of review or due process given to
>> >people inconvenienced by it, and smeared by public knowlege of their
> being
>> >on it.
>> >
>> >What's the difference between a secret "who can't fly" list, a "who
>> >can't
>> >work" list, a "who can't open a bank account" list, or a "who can't own
>> >property and stocks" list? Or for that matter, Nixon's "Enemies List?"
>>
>> this is interesting -- a spelling error....yeah...uh huh.
>>
>>
>> Cat Stevens saga 'a spelling error'
>> From correspondents in New York
>> 26sep04
>>
>> CAT Stevens was deported from the United States because of a spelling
>> error, with American officials confusing the former pop star with a
>> man with a similar name on a "no-fly" list, Time magazine reported
>> today.
>>
>> Stevens, 57, gave up his successful pop career in the late 1970s,
>> taking the name Yusuf Islam and converting to Islam.
>> He had been travelling from London to Washington on Tuesday when his
>> flight was diverted to Bangor, Maine, where he was detained on
>> "national security grounds".
>>
>> He was then put on a plane back to London, according to US security
>> officials.
>>
>> Asa Hutchinson, the US Department of Homeland Security's under
>> secretary for border and transportation security, refused to specify
>> the allegations against him.
>>
>> Time, in its online edition, quoted aviation sources with access to
>> the "no-fly" list as saying there was no entry on the list under the
>> name Yusuf Islam, but there was a Youssouf Islam listed.
>>
>> Because Islam's name was spelled Yusuf on his passport, said the
>> sources, he was allowed to board a plane in London bound for the
>> United States.
>>
>> Islam said on Friday he had begun legal action against US authorities.
>>
>> "We have now initiated a legal process to try to find out exactly what
>> is going on, and to take all necessary steps to undo the very serious,
>> and wholly unfounded, injustice which I have suffered," he said.
>>
>> "The amazing thing is that I was not given, and have still not been
>> given, any explanation whatsoever as to what it is I am accused of, or
>> why I am now deemed an apparent security threat - let alone given an
>> opportunity to respond to these allegations.
>>
>> "I was simply told that the order had come from on high."
>>
>>
>> peace
>>
>> d
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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Eric Cordian
> About that listening thing Eric. You might find it useful every once in
> a while to do it the other way. Like you listen. I rarely see you do
> that based on your answers to folks. Its like you have this preset
> rant that you want to go on and you bend their replies to meet that.
It's easier to accuse someone of "not listening" than "not agreeing."
Parents do this a lot, but that's another thread.
The reason, of course, is obvious. If you complain that someone doesn't
agree with you, then you have to explain your point, their point, and the
person you are telling it to might very well end up agreeing with your
adversary.
Calling it "not listening" evades all these embarrassing little nuances,
and automatically casts you into the role of the aggrieved party. It
completely avoids discussion of what the points of contention are, and
whose position is reasonable.
I assure you I have full command of the English language, and nothing in
your posts escapes my notice.
Eric Cordian
>> > ooops - a bit of anti-Semitism here.
>> Sorry, my criticism was about behavior, not about religion or ethnic
>> origin.
>> It's a common mistake to confuse the two. Often deliberate, in fact.
> Oh I didn't mistake anything Eric. I see it quite often in what you write.
> Along with that you don't like women much at all. all in all dude you
> are kind of scarey actually.
I criticize the US for the same things I criticize Israel for, and more
often. Arrogance, believing God has carved out a special place for you in
history, moral superiority, believing you can judge everyone else, but not
the reverse, and other related attitudes and behaviors.
I think the world functions best if everyone interacts with everyone else
as an individual. I believe the individual to be the fundamental unit of
sovereignty, and the fundamental unit of responsibility. I think that
governments exist to exercise on behalf of sovereign individuals those
actions they choose to exercise collectively, and that governments should
have no power that can't be thus described.
I therefore have a dim view of various schooling and herding behaviors
individuals engage in, whether cloaked in nationhood, religion, gender,
political ideology, skin color, or other group characteristic. I think
large numbers of people blindly following an agenda are dangerous, not
only to themselves, but to others, and most human misery stems from this
kind of groupthink.
I don't feel such views are either misogonist or anti-Semitic, or
constitute any other form of bias, and I support the absolute and
inviolable freedom of every sovereign individual to believe in whatever he
or she chooses to embrace, as long as I have the right to point at the
sillier things and laugh hysterically, and of course, I am more than happy
to allow others to point and laugh at my views as well.
>> So what form of Vengeful Sky-God Organized Superstition did you say you
>> practiced?
>> I've always believed in the Jesse Ventura view of religion myself, that it
>> is a crutch for the weak-minded.
> Nope - sorry.
Well, perhaps some other time.
Kc
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> At the present time 50% of the (is it - younger or just the general
> population) of Los Angeles cannot read. At least that what was announced
> all over the news last week, albeit not clearly. People who sneak over
> the
> borders don't go to school as a general rule, they don't go for proper
> health care, among many other things. But for being illegal, they would
> have these things and not be afraid to seek them out."
True... just as a large percentage of the elderly and homeless and single
moms (who are showing up at an alarming rate in the 'homeless' category) can
not afford health care coverage. But for being financially impoverished,
they would have these things and not be afraid to seek them out.
>
> This is one of the few countries in the world that has this problem. And
> its becoming overwhelming. I don't kid around about it. I think its a
> bit
> out of control and is causing a lot of dissent and problems in high
> traffic
> alien areas.
*What problem? An indigent population seeking refuge from a shitty
situation in their homeland? Of course we are one of the "few countries" in
the world with "that problem". We are a democracy, well... rather we are
supposed to be a democracy - not a dictatorship. Many countries in Europe
faced this same "problem" in the 1940's as many Jews (and other minorities)
fled Germany and German-occupied countries as refugees. I'm thankful those
countries didn't label that exodus from persecution as a "problem".
>
> Not to mention the literally thousands of people from other countries of
> the
> world besides this hemisphere. That is the scariest thing of all to me at
> least.
>
> I see it as a huge problem. Your mileage may vary and you are certainly
> free to make as much fun of my concern as you like. It doesn't lessen it
> or
> increase it - so its ok.
I wasn't "making fun" of you p.o.v. Suzanne. You know that. When the
"pilgrams" came to this country (that didn't belong to them), Native
Americans offered them food, shelter, and educated them on farming -
something that wasn't an issue in their "homeland" (all they had previously
grown was wheat - thus leading to famine and plague) - and in return we
killed them. We took their land from them, and rounded them up and
"assigned" them to reservations.
My point was, and is... that the very "founders" of this nation would not
have been here (nor would we) if "other people" had not come to the North
American continent and inhabited it.
Kc
>
>
> Kc" <KcIn...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:Afq5d.10061$gG4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>>
>> "windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
>> news:1d0f5d9b16adbe86f...@asarian-host.net...
>
>> >
WayBackJack
<e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
>WayBackJack <I...@home.net> wrote:
>
>> They're performing millions of dollars of good works to carry out
>> their goal of conversion ... enslavement ... or death.
>
>I see no sign that moderate Islam is pursuing an agenda of conversion,
>enslavement, or death.
You see no sign of "moderate" Islam condemning the militants. In
fact, MILLIONS of "moderates" support them.
Dan Rather and Palestine Pete Jennings have you brainwashed into
believing that it's just a few criminals who support terrorists.
>> If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
>
>No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
>
>Close, though. :)
No, it's the mullahs in the typical Friday night sermon.
>>>Israel could stop pizza parlor bombing tomorrow, if they would negotiate
>>>in good faith, and stop trying to steal other peoples land to rebuild
>>>their imaginary Biblical empire.
>
>> But, but, but, let's hear your criticize the religious motives of the
>> barbarous Islamites who strap TNT to their pre-pubescent children in
>> the name of ALLAH .... who perform "honor killings" on their teenaged
>> daughters for "allowing" themselves to be raped .... who take great
>> joy in stomping each other on their Holiest day of the year ... who
>> behead civilians.
>
>You are confusing a large number of things, some of which are more
>artifacts of the backward communities in which they occur, than of Islam.
>India has a big problem with honor killings in rural areas, for instance,
>so it's hardly a Moslem invention.
Oh well. in that case, if the Indians perform honor killings then
certainly it's OK for the Muslims to do it.
>The "Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" tale is Israeli propaganda, created
>when they managed to photograph some little boy dressed in militant garb
>at a party.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1446003.stm
School trains suicide bombers
A boy draws himself with explosives tied to his body
By Jeremy Cooke in Gaza
The Islamic Jihad is running a summer school - to teach boys the
benefits of becoming suicide bombers.
Teacher Mohammed el Hattab: Suicide bombers go to the highest state in
paradise
The militant group has a sworn mission to wage a holy war against
Israel.
The boys are told not only that it is good to kill, but also that it
is good to die.
(snip)
>Anyone who is in occupied Iraq who is not a citizen of Iraq, is a
>legitimate target. Particularly the individuals charged with rebuilding
>the oil infrastructure so the US can steal Iraq's natural resources.
Oh I believe that we should have used the neutron bomb in Iraq and
kept our kids at home where they could patrol the borders root out the
Islamic terror cells in our communities.
>That's not to say beheading is a nice thing to do, but with 20,000
>innocent civilians dead in an illegal war of aggression based on lies,
>after a decade of bombing all their infrastructure flat, games with
>inspectors/spies, and other stage-managed antics created from whole cloth
>by the United States, you can't blame the Iraqi people for being just a
>little bit pissed off.
Is that why they blow up night clubs in Indonesia and Australia?
>> Let's hear you address the typical Friday night sermon in the
>> neighborhood mosques that are springing up all ove the US as we speak:
>> The infidels are responsible for our miserable lives.
>
>I wasn't aware Moslems in the US led miserable lives.
I'm talking about their cousins in the desert.
>>>There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United States
>>>re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in the
>>>United States either.
>
>> Geo. should bring the troops home to wipe out the Islamic terrorist
>> cells in the US.
>
>>>Let a thousand pizza parlors explode.
>
>> Spoken like a true terrorist.
>
>I think it's not strange that pizza parlors explode, but that people who
>support illegal occupation and human rights violations should ever have
>thought they deserved pizza parlor sanctuary to begin with.
The twin towers went down before our "illegal occupation."
Not to mention a Scottish airplane.
Or slavery in the Sudan.
etc.
>The idea that civilian populations bear no blame for the behavior of the
>governments they place in power and support with their labor and dollars,
>and that civilians should not be the targets of military force, is a very
>recent and convenient invention by the West, largely because precision
>weapons and limited conflicts have made it a potent propaganda tool
>against adversaries, who often don't have the same luxury.
Yeah, I agree that the Muslim civilian population should bear a lot of
the blame.
>Besides, it's not like US forces won't blow a hole in any civilian who
>gets in the way of some objective they wish to accomplish.
War is hell, ain't it.
That's how come they called it war.
James
<KcIn...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
<qay5d.3605$zG1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> the
following:
I believe you misunderstood what was being said.
>> Not to mention the literally thousands of people from other countries of
>> the
>> world besides this hemisphere. That is the scariest thing of all to me at
>> least.
>>
>> I see it as a huge problem. Your mileage may vary and you are certainly
>> free to make as much fun of my concern as you like. It doesn't lessen it
>> or
>> increase it - so its ok.
>
>I wasn't "making fun" of you p.o.v. Suzanne. You know that. When the
>"pilgrams" came to this country (that didn't belong to them),
And some grim grams they were indeed, I've heard!
>Native
>Americans offered them food, shelter, and educated them on farming -
>something that wasn't an issue in their "homeland" (all they had previously
>grown was wheat - thus leading to famine and plague) - and in return we
>killed them. We took their land from them, and rounded them up and
>"assigned" them to reservations.
>
>My point was, and is... that the very "founders" of this nation would not
>have been here (nor would we) if "other people" had not come to the North
>American continent and inhabited it.
>
Lest we forget, some here are native descendants.
James
<slo...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
<7a42d58.869fe86a1...@asarian-host.net> the
following:
>X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>At the present time 50% of the (is it - younger or just the general
>>population) of Los Angeles cannot read. At least that what was announced
>>all over the news last week, albeit not clearly. People who sneak over the
>>borders don't go to school as a general rule, they don't go for proper
>>health care, among many other things. But for being illegal, they would
>>have these things and not be afraid to seek them out."
>>
>>This is one of the few countries in the world that has this problem. And
>>its becoming overwhelming. I don't kid around about it. I think its a bit
>>out of control and is causing a lot of dissent and problems in high traffic
>>alien areas.
>>
>>Not to mention the literally thousands of people from other countries of the
>>world besides this hemisphere. That is the scariest thing of all to me at
>>least.
>>
>>I see it as a huge problem. Your mileage may vary and you are certainly
>>free to make as much fun of my concern as you like. It doesn't lessen it or
>>increase it - so its ok.
>
>illegal immigrants is a horrific problem. I was neither making fun of
>it, nor belittling you. BUt you didn't start out commenting on
>illegal immigrants...your first post to this thread was regarding
>Yusuf Islam aka Cat Stevens --- those comments were:
>
>"I was curious about this when the news broke so I started reading a
>little - I think much more than him donating money to Hamas, my
>concern would be what end of the islam belief spectrum he falls on -
>that would tell far more about who he has associated himself with.
>The answer was there very clearly. It seemed a reasonable call for
>me. Wahabi makes me very nervous no matter how "peaceful" the person
>claims to be."
>
>As you can see...your comments above have little or nothing to do with
>illegal immigrants. My response where I quoted many comments
>regarding his work were in direct response to you comment stating "My
>opinion is - he ain't on any peace train anymore. I leave him sit in
>London".
>
>I was merely pointing out that your negative commentary doesn't seem
>to match his reality....and has nothing to do with illegal immigrants.
>
It appears you missed part of the flow of the conversation,
since you're responding to something that wasn't in response
to anything you said, nor anything addressed to you.
Dragonlady
"Eric Cordian" <e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote in message
news:4155ebff$0$98829$a726...@news.hal-pc.org...
> windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> > Stand on the street and spout that in Jeruselem......please. Sometimes
> > Eric you come off as a really niave net nut. Now is one of those times.
>
> The fact that speaking the truth in Jeruselem would place ones safety at
> risk is no more compelling than the fact that criticizing National
> Socialism in front of Hitler and his generals would get you hanged with
> piano wire.
The fact is, spouting your arab propaganda in Jeruselem would not get you
killed not by the government or military, because you wouldn't last long
enough for them to come and get you. Isreal isn't that big.
> Sometimes I wonder how people come up with this idea that truth is defined
> by who wields the biggest club.
>
> > I for one don't care. After 9/11 and all the rest of the stuff - I see
> > a real threat and after having studied a bit about the various factions
> > involved - I am very content with my government being politically
> > incorrect and not sensitive. So sue me.
>
> I'm sure it's all very entertaining. Until they come for you.
>
> >> I've never held the view that people who strap explosives to themselves
> >> and detonate in a crowded pizza shop are worse than people who fire
> >> missiles into crowded civilian apartment buildings from helicopter
> >> gunships. Even if the people with the better weapons also have the
better
> >> spin control.
>
> > Which is why we are all blessed that you don't have any more political
power
> > than to rant on the internet.
>
> True power is simply the ability to mold Matter, Energy, Space, and Time
> according to ones Will.
>
> All other forms of power flow from this basic one through various levels
> of indirection. At the bottom of the long list is political power.
Interesting assertion, yet it does rather seem to contradict your rants
about political power.
>
> Political power only exists because those who wield power more directly
> resist the urge to meddle. A fact politicians crossing the thin line
> between oppressing the stupid, and threatening humanity itself, quickly
> discover.
And those who "wield power more directly" are...?
> I am reminded of the amusing sentence in Robert Anton Wilson's
> "Illuminatus" Trilogy. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was
> something similar to "Do not force us to show you the kinds of weapons
> enlightened minds can produce."
>
> >> I think it's silly that American citizens can join the Israeli army,
serve
> >> in the illegally occupied territories, and murder and torment
Palestinians
> >> with impunity, while someone giving a dollar to Hamas faces prosecution
> >> and prison.
>
> > That be the breaks. But as I said - Cat's involvement goes beyond that
> > of giving money to Hamas. I'm quite content for him to have his butt
> > confined
> > to London and not New York.
>
> Well, his tribulations reek of political retaliation for his loud and
> public non-support of the War in Iraq.
>
> He is, after all, a long time peace activist. It's really no different
> than the government trying to deport John Lennnon for his Vietnam
> activities.
Dragonlady
> windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> > For me it is also defined in the faces of the people who have lost so
much
> > and mourn and live in fear.
>
> You know what they say in psychological circles. The major cause of
> paranoia is guilt. You can't piss off the world without spending a lot of
> time worrying about chickens coming home to roost.
Which does not address at all what she says, and is a complete misdirection.
It's entirely possible to live in fear and be completely innocent of any
wrongdoing. Ask any child who's been abused. Ask any adult who's been
abused.
Ask any citizen of Palestine who is not involved in one of the factions.
If you can find one anymore. :(
> >> > I for one don't care. After 9/11 and all the rest of the stuff - I
see
> >> > a real threat and after having studied a bit about the various
factions
> >> > involved - I am very content with my government being politically
> >> > incorrect and not sensitive. So sue me.
>
> >> I'm sure it's all very entertaining. Until they come for you.
>
> > Old old old - net stuff there. Next you will be posting that tired old
> > poem.
>
> You mean Rev. Martin Niemoller's "tired old poem?"
>
> > But hey - what do I expect from someone who mentions Hitler in posts.
>
> There were lines even Hitler didn't dare cross. Napoleon spent a night
> inside the Great Pyramid during his campaign in Egypt. He emerged pale
> and shaken in the morning, and never spoke of his experiences.
>
> >> True power is simply the ability to mold Matter, Energy, Space, and
Time
> >> according to ones Will.
>
> > Like I said earlier - you have much to learn.
>
> Perhaps, but not from you.
Closing your mind is a dangerous game, Eric.
> >> All other forms of power flow from this basic one through various
levels
> >> of indirection. At the bottom of the long list is political power.
>
> >> Political power only exists because those who wield power more directly
> >> resist the urge to meddle. A fact politicians crossing the thin line
> >> between oppressing the stupid, and threatening humanity itself, quickly
> >> discover.
>
> > Well if this had anything to do with anything I said - I guess it might
be
> > interesting or not.
>
> You were saying how wonderful it was that I did not wield "political
> power."
Is this supposed to imply you are one of those who "resist the urge to
meddle"?
> >> I am reminded of the amusing sentence in Robert Anton Wilson's
> >> "Illuminatus" Trilogy. I don't remember the exact wording, but it was
> >> something similar to "Do not force us to show you the kinds of weapons
> >> enlightened minds can produce."
>
> > See above...
>
> >> > That be the breaks. But as I said - Cat's involvement goes beyond
that
> >> > of giving money to Hamas. I'm quite content for him to have his butt
> >> > confined
> >> > to London and not New York.
>
> >> Well, his tribulations reek of political retaliation for his loud and
> >> public non-support of the War in Iraq.
>
> > I am content - as I said - for anyone who studies and embraces Wahabi
> > to be
> > on a watch list.
>
> You are content for travel by air to be controlled by a secret list, to
> which anyone may be added at any time, for any reason, or for no reason at
> all, which is not subject to any sort of review or due process given to
> people inconvenienced by it, and smeared by public knowlege of their being
> on it.
What makes you think this is something new?
>
> What's the difference between a secret "who can't fly" list, a "who can't
> work" list, a "who can't open a bank account" list, or a "who can't own
> property and stocks" list? Or for that matter, Nixon's "Enemies List?"
>
> >> He is, after all, a long time peace activist. It's really no different
> >> than the government trying to deport John Lennnon for his Vietnam
> >> activities.
>
> > Its been 30 some years since he wrote Peace Train. Wahabi - ain't peace
> > train.
>
> > I see it as kind of like Michael Corleone saying he was just a
businessman
> > and
> > anyone who questions that hates Italians.
>
> I see it as putting all Italians on a list, because you are worried about
> Michael Corleone.
Dragonlady
"Jack" <bro...@windswept.org> wrote in message
news:41561b0a...@news.prodigy.net...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 01:02:01 GMT, windswept
> <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> >But hell, if I controlled the borders they would all be totally sealed -
no
> >way to sneak in and everyone checked one by one. The line would be so
long
> >that literally millions wouldn't bother. If *I ruled the world - there
> >would be no "undocumented worker" problem and no other folks sneaking in.
> >
>
> your mindset would be controlling our borders.
I disagree. It would be yet another step toward totalitarianism - and away
from true democracy or any other desirable form of government. The true
reason there are controls on immigration and importing is to limit
competition, which raises prices and wages in this country, while keeping
them lower in other countries.
Dragonlady
> There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United States
> re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in the
> United States either.
Bush wasn't elected by an overwhelming landslide the first time. He wasn't
*elected* at all the first time. What makes you think this time will be any
different?
Dragonlady
"WayBackJack" <I...@home.net> wrote in message
news:41561def...@news.prodigy.net...
> >There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United
States
> >re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in
the
> >United States either.
>
> cells in the US.
He can't. He'd have a revolution on his hands if he tried to do here what
he's doing in Iraq. He'd actually have to *find* the terrorist cells here
before he could wipe them out, because he can't indiscrimately bomb entire
cities here and expect to continue as president, even with his brother
bringing him the state of Florida.
Eric Cordian
I said "if." Nevertheless, Bush has successfully cast his campaign as
"Who can keep America safer from America's victims," and Kerry isn't
really mounting any sort of successful response. So perhaps it will be a
landslide after all.
It will be interesting to see how far the Bushes get in their
multigenerational plan for "One World Order" before they are all hanged.
Things would be a whole lot different today if Prescott Bush had actually
gone on trial for "trading with the enemy" during World War II. The
Bushes just can't stay away from anything that looks like a worldwide
"Reich."
Dragonlady
> WayBackJack <I...@home.net> wrote:
>
> > They're performing millions of dollars of good works to carry out
> > their goal of conversion ... enslavement ... or death.
>
> I see no sign that moderate Islam is pursuing an agenda of conversion,
> enslavement, or death.
>
>
> No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
Can you offer proof of this statement, or are you just libeling the
president?
>
> Close, though. :)
>
> >>Israel could stop pizza parlor bombing tomorrow, if they would negotiate
> >>in good faith, and stop trying to steal other peoples land to rebuild
> >>their imaginary Biblical empire.
>
> > But, but, but, let's hear your criticize the religious motives of the
> > barbarous Islamites who strap TNT to their pre-pubescent children in
> > the name of ALLAH .... who perform "honor killings" on their teenaged
> > daughters for "allowing" themselves to be raped .... who take great
> > joy in stomping each other on their Holiest day of the year ... who
> > behead civilians.
>
> You are confusing a large number of things, some of which are more
> artifacts of the backward communities in which they occur, than of Islam.
> India has a big problem with honor killings in rural areas, for instance,
> so it's hardly a Moslem invention.
You're dodging the fact that there *are* Moslem's who practice this
particular form of child killing.
>
> The "Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" tale is Israeli propaganda, created
> when they managed to photograph some little boy dressed in militant garb
> at a party.
Can you prove this?
>
> Anyone who is in occupied Iraq who is not a citizen of Iraq, is a
> legitimate target. Particularly the individuals charged with rebuilding
> the oil infrastructure so the US can steal Iraq's natural resources.
>
> That's not to say beheading is a nice thing to do, but with 20,000
> innocent civilians dead in an illegal war of aggression based on lies,
> after a decade of bombing all their infrastructure flat, games with
> inspectors/spies, and other stage-managed antics created from whole cloth
> by the United States, you can't blame the Iraqi people for being just a
> little bit pissed off.
>
> > Let's hear you address the typical Friday night sermon in the
> > neighborhood mosques that are springing up all ove the US as we speak:
> > The infidels are responsible for our miserable lives.
>
> I wasn't aware Moslems in the US led miserable lives.
I want to know where he got the idea that sermons in a typical mosque are
about any such thing. You been going to Islamic services, Jack?
> >>There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United
States
> >>re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in
the
> >>United States either.
>
> > Geo. should bring the troops home to wipe out the Islamic terrorist
> > cells in the US.
>
> >>Let a thousand pizza parlors explode.
>
> > Spoken like a true terrorist.
>
> I think it's not strange that pizza parlors explode, but that people who
> support illegal occupation and human rights violations should ever have
> thought they deserved pizza parlor sanctuary to begin with.
Hate to burst your bubble, Eric, but most of the people who are killed in
"pizza parlor explosions" are common, everyday citizens who have no more say
in "public" policy than a bug in the window, and wouldn't support illegal
occupation *or* human rights violations.
> The idea that civilian populations bear no blame for the behavior of the
> governments they place in power and support with their labor and dollars,
> and that civilians should not be the targets of military force, is a very
> recent and convenient invention by the West, largely because precision
> weapons and limited conflicts have made it a potent propaganda tool
> against adversaries, who often don't have the same luxury.
You have, once again, forgotten that power corrupts, and absolute power
corrupts absolutely. And some people corrupt a lot faster than others,
particularly people who come from rich, greedy backgrounds to start with.
I also think trying to hold the civilian population responsible for the
actions of the elected government is the height of hypocrisy coming from
someone who advocates that voting is a useless practice and refuses to do
it.
Incidently, the fact that it's a recent "invention" does not make it wrong.
That's like saying that because for hundreds of years men were allowed to
beat their wives, it's ok for men to beat their wives.
In addition, there is the fact that killing civilian populations
accomplishes exactly one thing: prolonging the war. Unless, of course, your
true goal is genocide.
Kill the leaders, and you've got a whole different proposition.
> Besides, it's not like US forces won't blow a hole in any civilian who
> gets in the way of some objective they wish to accomplish.
Gee. Just like Islamic terrorists, you mean?
Dragonlady
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:f8cac3360155d6c78...@asarian-host.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> ooops - a bit of anti-Semitism here.
>
> "Eric Cordian" <e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote in message
> news:41561cb6$0$446$a726...@news.hal-pc.org...
> > Jack <bro...@windswept.org> wrote:
> >
> > >>Accusing someone of "donating to Hamas," is deceptive, because one can
> > >>only donate to the charitable, political Hamas, not the one waging war
> > >>against the Zionist Entity from within the illegally occupied
> Palestinian
> > >>territories.
> >
> > > Ah yes, the charitable political Hamas that devotes much of its
> > > estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services
> > > network, which includes schools, orphanages, mosques, health care
> > > clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues.
> >
> > So if they perform no good works, they are bad people, and if they
perform
> > millions of dollars worth of good works, they are still bad people
because
> > they are doing it with an ulterior motive.
> >
> > Sounds like a heads I win, tails you lose, argument to me.
> >
> > > It's know as winning the hearts and minds of the people AKA
> > > propagandizing, to make suicide bombing of pizza parlors acceptable.
> >
> > Israel could stop pizza parlor bombing tomorrow, if they would negotiate
> > in good faith, and stop trying to steal other peoples land to rebuild
> > their imaginary Biblical empire.
> >
> > There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United
States
> > re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in
the
> > United States either.
> >
> > Let a thousand pizza parlors explode.
> >
> > --
> > Eric Michael Cordian 0+
> > O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division
> > "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law"
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Dragonlady
> origin.
>
> It's a common mistake to confuse the two. Often deliberate, in fact.
>
> But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt the first time.
>
> So what form of Vengeful Sky-God Organized Superstition did you say you
> practiced?
>
> I've always believed in the Jesse Ventura view of religion myself, that it
> is a crutch for the weak-minded.
That depends a lot on whether you practice what you preach.
Would you consider Jesus weak-minded?
Dragonlady
> windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> > About that listening thing Eric. You might find it useful every once in
> > a while to do it the other way. Like you listen. I rarely see you do
> > that based on your answers to folks. Its like you have this preset
> > rant that you want to go on and you bend their replies to meet that.
>
> It's easier to accuse someone of "not listening" than "not agreeing."
>
> Parents do this a lot, but that's another thread.
There's another one of those global sweeping statement indicating that every
parent is this way and there are no exceptions.
>
> The reason, of course, is obvious. If you complain that someone doesn't
> agree with you, then you have to explain your point, their point, and the
> person you are telling it to might very well end up agreeing with your
> adversary.
Pot, kettle, black.
> Calling it "not listening" evades all these embarrassing little nuances,
> and automatically casts you into the role of the aggrieved party. It
> completely avoids discussion of what the points of contention are, and
> whose position is reasonable.
More pot, kettle, black.
> I assure you I have full command of the English language, and nothing in
> your posts escapes my notice.
*bwahahahahahahahaha* Since she really hasn't said much other than that she
doesn't agree with you, I'd actually have to agree with you here.
Unfortunately, I could not say the same of the other people you have argued
with.
Luna
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>My opinion is - he ain't on any peace train anymore. I leave him sit in
>>London.
>
>
>
> call it.....
I wonder if Salman Rushdie would agree with this.
Yusef Islam said (from http://catstevens.com - incredibly shitty website btw)
"Under Islamic Law, the ruling regarding blasphemy is quite clear; the
person found guilty of it must be put to death. Only under certain
circumstances can repentance be accepted."
"On 21st February, I was speaking to a group of students at the Kingston
Polytechnic, and in response to a question, I simply stated the Islamic
ruling on the Rushdie affair....
"My only crime was, I suppose, in being honest. I stood up and expressed my
belief and I am in no way apologizing for it."
He then goes on to talk in terms of political action as being an alternative
to extralegal action in Rushdie's case.
In spite of the last paragraph I somehow feel that he *should* be apologizing -
according to muslim extremists (of which there are many, I know you know that),
non-believers are blasphemers.
Jean's solution and I know this is not doable: US stops supporting Israel. It's
why they hate us. Leave Iraq as soon as possible. Not going to happen so
prepare for more death. Much more.
Jean
.
>
> ***********************************************************************************
>
> These are charities that Yusuf Islam, AKA, Cat Stevens began:
>
> SMALL KINDNESS
> Small Kindness is a registered UK charity (no. 1079579) and operates
> worldwide for the purpose of humanitarian relief. Established by Yusuf
> Islam in February 2000 the charity has, among other things, supported
> over 2,500 orphans in Kosova and initiated home building projects in
> Turkey following the recent devastating earthquakes.
>
> ISLAMIA SCHOOLS' TRUST
> The Islamia Schools' Trust, a registered UK charity (no. 326042), was
> founded in February 1982 by Muslims, including Yusuf Islam, concerned
> about the identity of their children in England. Its aims and
> objectives have always been to raise children according to the highest
> educational standards guided by the principles of Islam. This vision
> was implemented with the opening of the Islamia Primary School in 1983
> and then later the Islamia Girls' Secondary (1989) and the Islamia 6th
> Form (1997). Its school centre in North-West London caters for the
> needs of over 400 pupils.
>
> WAQF AL BIRR EDUCATIONAL TRUST
> The Waqf Al Birr Education Trust, a registered UK charity (no.
> 1008803), was founded by Yusuf Islam in 1992 to promote educational
> research and development as well as scientific or medical research for
> the increase of human knowledge and the alleviation of poverty. Aside
> from its many other activities it currently manages the Brondesbury
> College for Boys.
>
> These are Yusuf Islams' aka Cat Stevens comments on various issues:
>
> Yusuf Islam, the former Cat Stevens, has released a statement
> vigorously denouncing the terrorist attacks against New York and
> Washington, D.C.
> "I wish to express my heartfelt horror at the indiscriminate terrorist
> attacks committed against innocent people of the United States
> yesterday," Islam said. "While it is still not clear who carried out
> the attack, it must be stated that no right thinking follower of Islam
> could possibly condone such an action: The Qur'an equates the murder
> of one innocent person with the murder of the whole of humanity. We
> pray for the families of all those who lost their lives in this
> unthinkable act of violence as well as all those injured; I hope to
> reflect the feelings of all Muslims and people around the world whose
> sympathies go out to the victims of this sorrowful moment."
>
> Cat Stevens: 'They have hijacked my religion'
> The events of 11 September were the fruit of 'blind irreligious
> hatred': Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, explains why
> the attacks had nothing to do with Muslim beliefs
>
> Yusuf Islam - the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens - plans to
> donate a portion of the royalties from his upcoming box set to the
> September 11th Fund, with the rest going to orphans and homeless
> families in underdeveloped
>
>
> Yusuf Islam - the artist formerly known as Cat Stevens - plans to
> donate a portion of the royalties from his upcoming box set to the
> September 11th Fund, with the rest going to orphans and homeless
> families in underdeveloped countries.
>
> "I feel this is my duty," Islam said in a statement from his label. "I
> hope that this donation will bring some comfort." The four-disc box,
> to be released October 30, will include material spanning the artist's
> career, from demos recorded in 1965 through his '70s hits and work he
> recorded in the '90s under his Muslim name. The title of the set and
> track list have not been finalized.
>
> Islam supervised the re-release of much of his '70s catalog last year,
> royalties from which benefit children's charities such as Small
> Kindness, which helps families in Kosovo, Bosnia and other nations
> torn apart by war.
>
> "The Peace Train I still pray will one day arrive," Islam said,
> referring to his 1971 hit.
>
> The singer recently condemned the terrorist attacks on the U.S. on his
> official Web site (see "Yusuf Islam Expresses 'Heartfelt Horror' Over
> Terrorist Attacks").
>
> In 1989, Islam became embroiled in controversy when, while giving a
> lecture, he was asked to comment on the death sentence the Iranian
> government had ordered for author Salman Rushdie for perceived
> blasphemy in his book "The Satanic Verses."
>
> Islam was blasted in the Western world for what was interpreted as
> condoning the death sentence. Many radio stations stopped playing his
> music and still don't to this day.
>
>
> Yusuf Islam speaks out against the horrific Beslan school siege and
> its brutal ending:
>
> "Nothing is more precious to a parent than the love of their
> offspring, but for the parents of Beslan we can only share the tears
> and convey our deepest sympathies, though no words or effort could
> ever bring those children back into the violent world they so
> tragically left behind. There is no vocabulary fit to describe the
> gruesome cruelty of this event; watching helplessly as hundreds of
> children were mercilessly utilized as negotiating tokens in a
> political game, which they had absolutely nothing to do with, makes us
> ponder what kind of inhumane mentality the perpetrators had.
>
> The fact that the hostage takers were reportedly Muslim makes it
> difficult for some to avoid the conclusion that the religion of Islam
> must be the cause of this demented act, however, perceptions like that
> are maintained only if the majority of right minded believers stand
> back and say and do nothing. In reality, the whole masquerade being
> played out is purely political without any reference to spiritual
> truth: one thing is for sure, this action had as much connection with
> Islam as those innocent children had to do with the ferocious battle
> for Chechnya.
>
> The religious premise of the oft-repeated accusation disappears when
> you look closer at the facts: how opposed to the teachings of Islam
> this kind of act is. Even the most unlearned of Muslims know that the
> Prophet of Islam was always so merciful to children and their mothers.
> Once when he visited his daughter whose baby was dying, tears flowed
> from the eyes of the Prophet. Someone said to him, 'What is this, O
> Messenger of God?' He said. 'This is Mercy which God has embedded in
> the hearts of whomever He wished of His slaves. And God does not
> bestow His Mercy except on the merciful among His slaves.'1
>
> Islam eradicated infanticide which was sometimes performed in ignorant
> societies. The Qur'an specifically warns the murderers about this on
> the Day of Judgement, '.and when the girl-child who was buried is
> asked for what sin she was killed.'2
>
> Even if the torment of the oppressor reaches the unbearable, Muslims
> are commanded to restrain themselves, '.and do not let your hatred of
> a people incite you to act unjustly. Be just! That is closer to
> righteousness, and fear God!'3
>
> Crimes against innocent bystanders taken hostage in any circumstance
> have no foundation whatsoever in the life of Islam and the model
> example of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. The concept that Islam
> allows the taking of one person's life in exchange for another
> person's sin is absolutely warped, the Qur'an in fact put an end to
> the concept of sins being passed on from generation to generation,
> father to son, or from one soul to another. God says, '.And every soul
> earns not [blame] except against itself, and no bearer of burdens will
> bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He
> will inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.'4
>
> Also, 'Whoever takes a life without due justice, it will be as if he
> has killed the whole of mankind.'5 and, 'Do not take the life which
> God has made sacred except through (due process of) law.'6
>
> The whole belief system in Islam is based on ultimate responsibility
> and a final Day of Accounting for every individual soul. People will
> seek to take shelter behind others on that day but will be left
> exposed to answer for their own deeds, 'And whoever has done an atom's
> weight of good shall see it; and whoever has done an atom's weight of
> evil, shall see it.'7 There is no collective responsibility in Islam;
> neither in Natural Justice, another reason why both sides in the
> political games and conflicts we are witnessing are way beyond the
> borders of God's sacred law.
>
> ******************************************************************************************
> yes...a bad bad man indeed --- sheesh, but you know....I actually like
> to be educated with regard to topics lest I form an opinion based
> solely in ignorance and fear of that of which I do not know...but
> that's just me.
>
> d
Luna
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> "Dragonlady" <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> Hiya dragon:)
>
>>I disagree. It would be yet another step toward totalitarianism - and away
>>from true democracy or any other desirable form of government. The true
>>reason there are controls on immigration and importing is to limit
>>competition, which raises prices and wages in this country, while keeping
>>them lower in other countries.
>
>
> Nation. Part of that....aside from folks coming here for a better
> life and all...is that most (not all) Americans don't really want to
> perform the intensly physical farm tasks, at a very small wage
> etc.....immigrants are willing to do it...which makes them an asset to
> the agricultural business.
Heh, exactly Deb. I doubt you see many middle aged white men selling oranges
out of a bag on varuious sunny So Cal Blvds.
>
> Part of the difficulty with border control is that many americans
> don't *really* want it controlled because that would negate their
> ability to get the work done....cheaply.
>
> the issue of border control and illegal immigrants is such a difficult
> one to be on one side or the other, at least for me --- there are pros
> and cons to both sides.....
I heard they recently outlawed hand weeding? Is that true? Too backbreaking.
Jean
>
> d(eb)
Eric Cordian
>> Parents do this a lot, but that's another thread.
> There's another one of those global sweeping statement indicating that every
> parent is this way and there are no exceptions.
No, that's not what it means. If I say "police officers write a lot of
traffic citations", it does not mean that every single police officer
writes a lot of traffic citations personally.
>> The reason, of course, is obvious. If you complain that someone doesn't
>> agree with you, then you have to explain your point, their point, and the
>> person you are telling it to might very well end up agreeing with your
>> adversary.
> Pot, kettle, black.
>> Calling it "not listening" evades all these embarrassing little nuances,
>> and automatically casts you into the role of the aggrieved party. It
>> completely avoids discussion of what the points of contention are, and
>> whose position is reasonable.
> More pot, kettle, black.
>> I assure you I have full command of the English language, and nothing in
>> your posts escapes my notice.
> *bwahahahahahahahaha* Since she really hasn't said much other than that she
> doesn't agree with you, I'd actually have to agree with you here.
> Unfortunately, I could not say the same of the other people you have argued
> with.
--
Dragonlady
> windswept <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote:
>
> >> > ooops - a bit of anti-Semitism here.
>
> >> Sorry, my criticism was about behavior, not about religion or ethnic
> >> origin.
>
> >> It's a common mistake to confuse the two. Often deliberate, in fact.
>
write.
> > Along with that you don't like women much at all. all in all dude you
> > are kind of scarey actually.
>
> I criticize the US for the same things I criticize Israel for, and more
> often. Arrogance, believing God has carved out a special place for you in
> history, moral superiority, believing you can judge everyone else, but not
> the reverse, and other related attitudes and behaviors.
*chuckle* Neither America nor Isreal believes any such thing. Both America
and Isreal are countries - concepts created to unite groups of people into a
coherent group so they can be more easily manipulated by blind rhetoric.
And here you are, falling for it.
>
> I think the world functions best if everyone interacts with everyone else
> as an individual. I believe the individual to be the
Changed your mind, did you? When I said this to you, you arrogantly informed
me that social positions could not be ignored.
fundamental unit of
> sovereignty, and the fundamental unit of responsibility. I think that
> governments exist to exercise on behalf of sovereign individuals those
> actions they choose to exercise collectively, and that governments should
> have no power that can't be thus described.
>
> I therefore have a dim view of various schooling and herding behaviors
> individuals engage in, whether cloaked in nationhood, religion, gender,
> political ideology, skin color, or other group characteristic. I think
> large numbers of people blindly following an agenda are dangerous, not
> only to themselves, but to others, and most human misery stems from this
> kind of groupthink.
And yet you exhibit the symptoms of the very behavior you claim to abhor,
continuously. The only difference is, you (apparantly deliberately) exhibit
it in places where you know it will cause arguments, and allow you to be the
"underdog". Seriously, perhaps you need to consider this.
It's a form of victimhood in which the victim continues to victimize
themselves.
> I don't feel such views are either misogonist or anti-Semitic, or
> constitute any other form of bias, and I support the absolute and
> inviolable freedom of every sovereign individual to believe in whatever he
> or she chooses to embrace, as long as I have the right to point at the
> sillier things and laugh hysterically, and of course, I am more than happy
> to allow others to point and laugh at my views as well.
Good thing too, in view of what you post here. :P
> >> So what form of Vengeful Sky-God Organized Superstition did you say you
> >> practiced?
>
> >> I've always believed in the Jesse Ventura view of religion myself, that
it
> >> is a crutch for the weak-minded.
>
> > Nope - sorry.
>
> Well, perhaps some other time.
Eric Cordian
> Would you consider Jesus weak-minded?
Jesus, like Elvis, was an individual whose life story underwent certain
"writer's embellishments" after his death, because his followers wished
to build a permanent legacy.
He's not coming back, and if he did, he probably wouldn't even recognize
the fictionalized version of his life as portrayed by various religious
movements.
Well, maybe with the exception of the Monty Python rendition. :)
Dragonlady
> On 26 Sep 2004 02:15:45 GMT, Eric Cordian
> <e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote:
> >> If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
> >
> >No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
> >
>
> No, it's the mullahs in the typical Friday night sermon.
You've been attending Friday night sermons in mosques, Jack?
Kc
"James" <Ja...@RemoveThis.whocares.org> wrote in message
news:pvfdl0dchtbnjerjh...@4ax.com...
Oh, probably. Being that I live in So Cal and went thru the fabulous
LACSD - I very aware of what the factors are that going into that 50%
quote... I took the one Windy landed on (illegal immigrants) and went off on
a tangent about it =x
>
>>> Not to mention the literally thousands of people from other countries of
>>> the
>>> world besides this hemisphere. That is the scariest thing of all to me
>>> at
>>> least.
>>>
>>> I see it as a huge problem. Your mileage may vary and you are certainly
>>> free to make as much fun of my concern as you like. It doesn't lessen
>>> it
>>> or
>>> increase it - so its ok.
>>
>>I wasn't "making fun" of you p.o.v. Suzanne. You know that. When the
>>"pilgrams" came to this country (that didn't belong to them),
>
> And some grim grams they were indeed, I've heard!
>
>>Native
>>Americans offered them food, shelter, and educated them on farming -
>>something that wasn't an issue in their "homeland" (all they had
>>previously
>>grown was wheat - thus leading to famine and plague) - and in return we
>>killed them. We took their land from them, and rounded them up and
>>"assigned" them to reservations.
>>
>>My point was, and is... that the very "founders" of this nation would not
>>have been here (nor would we) if "other people" had not come to the North
>>American continent and inhabited it.
>>
> Lest we forget, some here are native descendants.
Yup, that's why I put "founders" in quotation marks. Because it is of
course, the duty of every white Euro-American to "educate" all the other
lost souls on "how" *they should be living life.
Yuck.
Kc
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>> <KcIn...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> <qay5d.3605$zG1....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> the
>> following:
>>
>> >
>> >"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
>> >news:ca900115184.a4d9d...@asarian-host.net...
>
>> >>
> but...but...but........suffice it to say I'm studying Spanish a couple of
> evenings a week and spending a good deal of time trying to help manage the
> situation in any small way I can.
I think that's an excellent idea. As I mentioned when I visited you in
Houston, the homeless/indigent/illegal alien "problem" is far worse where
you live than it is in So Cal. Have you guys started posting street signs
in dual languages? (In some areas, we have).
Kc
Eric Cordian
>> > If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
>> No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
> Can you offer proof of this statement, or are you just libeling the
> president?
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- There is no room for neutrality in the war against
terrorism, and the international coalition against terror will "fight this
evil and fight until we are rid of it," President Bush said Tuesday.
He would deliver that message in a speech Saturday to the United Nations,
Bush said.
"A coalition partner must do more than just express sympathy, a coalition
partner must perform," Bush said.
"Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be
held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or
against us in the fight against terror."
> You're dodging the fact that there *are* Moslem's who practice this
> particular form of child killing.
Some people who practice it are Moslems, others aren't. The factor here
is backward societies that regard children as their parents' property, not
which religion people practice.
The Pilgrims thought it was ok to kill children who defied them. It's a
common thread through many cultures.
>> The "Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" tale is Israeli propaganda, created
>> when they managed to photograph some little boy dressed in militant garb
>> at a party.
> Can you prove this?
I've never heard of a suicide bomber under 15. People in their middle
teens are considered adults in Arab society. THe Israelis photographing
some little kid in a suicide bomber costume at a party, and then trying to
circulate it as an alleged real suicide bomber was widely reported at the
time.
Saying to school children that suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic is
sometimes equated for propaganda purposes with "training children to be
suicide bombers," but of course, this is not the case.
It seems to me that the burden of proof here is on those making the
"Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" claim. A single news clipping of an
exploding 12 year old would be more than satisfactory.
>> Anyone who is in occupied Iraq who is not a citizen of Iraq, is a
>> legitimate target. Particularly the individuals charged with rebuilding
>> the oil infrastructure so the US can steal Iraq's natural resources.
>> That's not to say beheading is a nice thing to do, but with 20,000
>> innocent civilians dead in an illegal war of aggression based on lies,
>> after a decade of bombing all their infrastructure flat, games with
>> inspectors/spies, and other stage-managed antics created from whole cloth
>> by the United States, you can't blame the Iraqi people for being just a
>> little bit pissed off.
>> > Let's hear you address the typical Friday night sermon in the
>> > neighborhood mosques that are springing up all ove the US as we speak:
>> > The infidels are responsible for our miserable lives.
>> I wasn't aware Moslems in the US led miserable lives.
> I want to know where he got the idea that sermons in a typical mosque are
> about any such thing. You been going to Islamic services, Jack?
>> I think it's not strange that pizza parlors explode, but that people who
>> support illegal occupation and human rights violations should ever have
>> thought they deserved pizza parlor sanctuary to begin with.
> Hate to burst your bubble, Eric, but most of the people who are killed in
> "pizza parlor explosions" are common, everyday citizens who have no more say
> in "public" policy than a bug in the window, and wouldn't support illegal
> occupation *or* human rights violations.
I would venture a guess that the majority of Israeli citizens, and
probably most American Jews as well, believe that they have a Biblical
right to the historical lands of "Judea" and "Samaria", known in the rest
of the world as the "Illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories," through
any means necessary. They support wholeheartedly the occupation and
oppression of the Palestinian people by the IDF, and feel themselves to be
the "poor victims of terrorism" when pizza parlor retaliation occurs.
>> The idea that civilian populations bear no blame for the behavior of the
>> governments they place in power and support with their labor and dollars,
>> and that civilians should not be the targets of military force, is a very
>> recent and convenient invention by the West, largely because precision
>> weapons and limited conflicts have made it a potent propaganda tool
>> against adversaries, who often don't have the same luxury.
> You have, once again, forgotten that power corrupts, and absolute power
> corrupts absolutely. And some people corrupt a lot faster than others,
> particularly people who come from rich, greedy backgrounds to start with.
> I also think trying to hold the civilian population responsible for the
> actions of the elected government is the height of hypocrisy coming from
> someone who advocates that voting is a useless practice and refuses to do
> it.
Well, I wasn't suggesting voting was the only way citizens could remove
out-of-control leaders.
Explosives have uses beyond pizza parlor destruction.
> Incidently, the fact that it's a recent "invention" does not make it wrong.
> That's like saying that because for hundreds of years men were allowed to
> beat their wives, it's ok for men to beat their wives.
You may recall during the Second World War, bombing to demoralize the
civilian population was considered a perfectly good military tactic. The
bombing of London, and the firebombing of Dresden, being two excellent
examples.
"On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and
barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of
the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within
less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming
ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants,
possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in
what was the worst single event massacre of all time."
> In addition, there is the fact that killing civilian populations
> accomplishes exactly one thing: prolonging the war. Unless, of course, your
> true goal is genocide.
> Kill the leaders, and you've got a whole different proposition.
That isn't necessarily true. Lifestyle reduction often causes the
civilian population to turn against the leaders who got them into the
mess.
Dragonlady
> Dragonlady <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> > "Eric Cordian" <e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote in message
> > news:41561cb6$0$446$a726...@news.hal-pc.org...
> >> There are no civilians in Israel, and if the citizens of the United
States
> >> re-elect George W. Bush in an overwhelming landslide, probably none in
the
> >> United States either.
>
> > Bush wasn't elected by an overwhelming landslide the first time. He
wasn't
> > *elected* at all the first time. What makes you think this time will be
any
> > different?
>
> I said "if." Nevertheless, Bush has successfully cast his campaign as
> "Who can keep America safer from America's victims," and Kerry isn't
> really mounting any sort of successful response. So perhaps it will be a
> landslide after all.
I'm afraid we disagree on the success of Bush's campaign strategy. How
successful it is won't really be known until election day. There are a hell
of a lot of people who will vote for Kerry just because he *isn't* Bush.
Even then, we won't know how much of it is successful pulling the wool over
the voter's eyes, and how much is just voting for him because they agree
that America should rule the world.
> It will be interesting to see how far the Bushes get in their
> multigenerational plan for "One World Order" before they are all hanged.
More likely to be shot, don't you think? Or maybe blown up?
> Things would be a whole lot different today if Prescott Bush had actually
> gone on trial for "trading with the enemy" during World War II. The
> Bushes just can't stay away from anything that looks like a worldwide
> "Reich."
Don't know anything about that. Don't believe in condemning the son for the
sins of the father. At least, not until he proves himself to be cut from
the same cloth.
Eric Cordian
>> I criticize the US for the same things I criticize Israel for, and more
>> often. Arrogance, believing God has carved out a special place for you in
>> history, moral superiority, believing you can judge everyone else, but not
>> the reverse, and other related attitudes and behaviors.
> *chuckle* Neither America nor Isreal believes any such thing. Both America
> and Isreal are countries - concepts created to unite groups of people into a
> coherent group so they can be more easily manipulated by blind rhetoric.
> And here you are, falling for it.
Just as cells can form into an organism with an agenda, people can form
into a nation with an agenda. Denying it doesn't make it go away.
>> I think the world functions best if everyone interacts with everyone else
>> as an individual. I believe the individual to be the
> Changed your mind, did you? When I said this to you, you arrogantly informed
> me that social positions could not be ignored.
Not at all. I prefer a world without social classes, but I acknowlege
their reality.
>> I therefore have a dim view of various schooling and herding behaviors
>> individuals engage in, whether cloaked in nationhood, religion, gender,
>> political ideology, skin color, or other group characteristic. I think
>> large numbers of people blindly following an agenda are dangerous, not
>> only to themselves, but to others, and most human misery stems from this
>> kind of groupthink.
> And yet you exhibit the symptoms of the very behavior you claim to abhor,
> continuously.
I'm not a member of any groups, and my views are entirely my own. So your
logic here escapes me.
> The only difference is, you (apparantly deliberately) exhibit
> it in places where you know it will cause arguments, and allow you to be the
> "underdog".
I state my views. I don't care whether some of them cause arguments.
I'm certainly not going to alter my analysis of issues depending on the
fickle and often-changing mood of the public.
You seem to feel one has an obligation to not say things to people they
don't enjoy hearing. Perhaps this is true at tea parties, but it
certainly isn't true on Usenet.
Dragonlady
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> "Dragonlady" <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> Hiya dragon:)
Hi Deb! Good to see you!
> >I disagree. It would be yet another step toward totalitarianism - and
away
> >from true democracy or any other desirable form of government. The true
> >reason there are controls on immigration and importing is to limit
> >competition, which raises prices and wages in this country, while keeping
> >them lower in other countries.
>
>
> I live in a state that has one of the highest immigrant groups in the
> Nation. Part of that....aside from folks coming here for a better
> life and all...is that most (not all) Americans don't really want to
> perform the intensly physical farm tasks, at a very small wage
> etc.....immigrants are willing to do it...which makes them an asset to
> the agricultural business.
Not to mention things like driving taxis, picking up your trash, digging
ditches and sewers, etc.
> Part of the difficulty with border control is that many americans
> don't *really* want it controlled because that would negate their
> ability to get the work done....cheaply.
Yes.
> the issue of border control and illegal immigrants is such a difficult
> one to be on one side or the other, at least for me --- there are pros
> and cons to both sides.....
The cons, however, usually involve safety issues. My problem is that they
are used to scare people into complying with arbitrary rules that really
have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with control.
In addition, of course, there is the fact that truly open borders would
bring down wages, and people tend to ignore the fact that lower wages mean
lower prices as well. Who's better off, the guy who makes $1/hr and pays
25% of it for his room and board, 10% for clothing, and uses the rest for
whatever he pleases, or the one who makes $10/hr and pays 50% of it for his
room and board, another 25% for clothing, and uses the rest for whatever he
pleases?
Dragonlady
But it's also expensive, and we have nothing if not a greed problem at the
highest levels of government.
"windswept" <wind...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:1765fc2f9.87b0444...@asarian-host.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> I'd just be content if they exactly *who was coming and going through our
> borders. To me it seems like a huge unmonitored hole or series of holes
and
> I'm not real crazy about having those right now.
>
> I think that there can be some arrangement made that meets everyone's
needs.
> But there I am - ever the optimist.
>
>
> "Dragonlady" <drago...@cableone.net> wrote in message
> news:2rob26F...@uni-berlin.de...
Dragonlady
> Dragonlady <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> >> Parents do this a lot, but that's another thread.
>
> > There's another one of those global sweeping statement indicating that
every
> > parent is this way and there are no exceptions.
>
> No, that's not what it means. If I say "police officers write a lot of
> traffic citations", it does not mean that every single police officer
> writes a lot of traffic citations personally.
Actually, that's exactly what it says. You have to modify the subject in
order for it not to say that.
There is a world of difference between "Some parents" and "Parents", and
there is a world of difference between "Police officers" and "Some police
officers". The first implies the word all. The second specifies only a
portion.
Dragonlady
> Dragonlady <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> > Would you consider Jesus weak-minded?
>
> Jesus, like Elvis, was an individual whose life story underwent certain
> "writer's embellishments" after his death, because his followers wished
> to build a permanent legacy.
>
> He's not coming back, and if he did, he probably wouldn't even recognize
> the fictionalized version of his life as portrayed by various religious
> movements.
>
> Well, maybe with the exception of the Monty Python rendition. :)
None of which answers the question asked. Would you consider Jesus
weak-minded?
Dragonlady
> Dragonlady <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> >> > If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
>
> >> No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
>
> > Can you offer proof of this statement, or are you just libeling the
> > president?
>
> WASHINGTON (CNN) -- There is no room for neutrality in the war against
> terrorism, and the international coalition against terror will "fight this
> evil and fight until we are rid of it," President Bush said Tuesday.
>
> He would deliver that message in a speech Saturday to the United Nations,
> Bush said.
>
> "A coalition partner must do more than just express sympathy, a coalition
> partner must perform," Bush said.
>
> "Over time it's going to be important for nations to know they will be
> held accountable for inactivity," he said. "You're either with us or
> against us in the fight against terror."
I might have known. I always did think that man was an idiot.
> > You're dodging the fact that there *are* Moslem's who practice this
> > particular form of child killing.
>
> Some people who practice it are Moslems, others aren't. The factor here
> is backward societies that regard children as their parents' property, not
> which religion people practice.
>
> The Pilgrims thought it was ok to kill children who defied them. It's a
> common thread through many cultures.
None of which makes it right.
> >> The "Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" tale is Israeli propaganda, created
> >> when they managed to photograph some little boy dressed in militant
garb
> >> at a party.
>
> > Can you prove this?
>
> I've never heard of a suicide bomber under 15. People in their middle
> teens are considered adults in Arab society. THe Israelis photographing
> some little kid in a suicide bomber costume at a party, and then trying to
> circulate it as an alleged real suicide bomber was widely reported at the
> time.
Do you have any idea what goes into convincing a 15 year old that becoming a
suicide bomber will get him into heaven and provide him with x number of
virgins? Those kids are indoctrinated from the time they are old enough to
understand spoken language to believe this bullshit. I'm not arguing that
small children become suicide bombers, but I don't find it at all hard to
beleive that the teens who do become suicide bombers have been indoctrinated
into it. And you rant about *American* parents.
> Saying to school children that suicide bombing is a legitimate tactic is
> sometimes equated for propaganda purposes with "training children to be
> suicide bombers," but of course, this is not the case.
Unfortunately, there's a hell of a lot more going on that that.
> It seems to me that the burden of proof here is on those making the
> "Pre-Pubescent Suicide Bomber" claim. A single news clipping of an
> exploding 12 year old would be more than satisfactory.
See above.
> >> I think it's not strange that pizza parlors explode, but that people
who
> >> support illegal occupation and human rights violations should ever have
> >> thought they deserved pizza parlor sanctuary to begin with.
>
> > Hate to burst your bubble, Eric, but most of the people who are killed
in
> > "pizza parlor explosions" are common, everyday citizens who have no more
say
> > in "public" policy than a bug in the window, and wouldn't support
illegal
> > occupation *or* human rights violations.
>
> I would venture a guess that the majority of Israeli citizens, and
> probably most American Jews as well, believe that they have a Biblical
> right to the historical lands of "Judea" and "Samaria", known in the rest
> of the world as the "Illegally Occupied Palestinian Territories," through
> any means necessary. They support wholeheartedly the occupation and
> oppression of the Palestinian people by the IDF, and feel themselves to be
> the "poor victims of terrorism" when pizza parlor retaliation occurs.
>
You have, of course, interviewed large numbers of Isrealis, which is how you
know this to be true?
> >> The idea that civilian populations bear no blame for the behavior of
the
> >> governments they place in power and support with their labor and
dollars,
> >> and that civilians should not be the targets of military force, is a
very
> >> recent and convenient invention by the West, largely because precision
> >> weapons and limited conflicts have made it a potent propaganda tool
> >> against adversaries, who often don't have the same luxury.
>
> > You have, once again, forgotten that power corrupts, and absolute power
> > corrupts absolutely. And some people corrupt a lot faster than others,
> > particularly people who come from rich, greedy backgrounds to start
with.
>
> > I also think trying to hold the civilian population responsible for the
> > actions of the elected government is the height of hypocrisy coming from
> > someone who advocates that voting is a useless practice and refuses to
do
> > it.
>
> Well, I wasn't suggesting voting was the only way citizens could remove
> out-of-control leaders.
>
> Explosives have uses beyond pizza parlor destruction.
You have just moved from socialist to communist. :P
> > Incidently, the fact that it's a recent "invention" does not make it
wrong.
> > That's like saying that because for hundreds of years men were allowed
to
> > beat their wives, it's ok for men to beat their wives.
>
> You may recall during the Second World War, bombing to demoralize the
> civilian population was considered a perfectly good military tactic. The
> bombing of London, and the firebombing of Dresden, being two excellent
> examples.
>
> "On the evening of February 13, 1945, an orgy of genocide and
> barbarism began against a defenseless German city, one of
> the greatest cultural centers of northern Europe. Within
> less than 14 hours not only was it reduced to flaming
> ruins, but an estimated one-third of its inhabitants,
> possibly as many as a half a million, had perished in
> what was the worst single event massacre of all time."
>
> > In addition, there is the fact that killing civilian populations
> > accomplishes exactly one thing: prolonging the war. Unless, of course,
your
> > true goal is genocide.
>
> > Kill the leaders, and you've got a whole different proposition.
>
> That isn't necessarily true. Lifestyle reduction often causes the
> civilian population to turn against the leaders who got them into the
> mess.
You have, either deliberately or obdurately, once again missed the point.
The fact that it was (and even is) so, does *not* make it right.
Dragonlady
> Dragonlady <drago...@cableone.net> wrote:
>
> >> I criticize the US for the same things I criticize Israel for, and more
> >> often. Arrogance, believing God has carved out a special place for you
in
> >> history, moral superiority, believing you can judge everyone else, but
not
> >> the reverse, and other related attitudes and behaviors.
>
> > *chuckle* Neither America nor Isreal believes any such thing. Both
America
> > and Isreal are countries - concepts created to unite groups of people
into a
> > coherent group so they can be more easily manipulated by blind rhetoric.
> > And here you are, falling for it.
>
> Just as cells can form into an organism with an agenda, people can form
> into a nation with an agenda. Denying it doesn't make it go away.
The agenda here does not belong to the people. It belongs to the people in
power, and whole different and much smaller group.
> >> I think the world functions best if everyone interacts with everyone
else
> >> as an individual. I believe the individual to be the
>
> > Changed your mind, did you? When I said this to you, you arrogantly
informed
> > me that social positions could not be ignored.
>
> Not at all. I prefer a world without social classes, but I acknowlege
> their reality.
So...you advocate one thing and practice another?
> >> I therefore have a dim view of various schooling and herding behaviors
> >> individuals engage in, whether cloaked in nationhood, religion, gender,
> >> political ideology, skin color, or other group characteristic. I think
> >> large numbers of people blindly following an agenda are dangerous, not
> >> only to themselves, but to others, and most human misery stems from
this
> >> kind of groupthink.
>
> > And yet you exhibit the symptoms of the very behavior you claim to
abhor,
> > continuously.
>
> I'm not a member of any groups, and my views are entirely my own. So your
> logic here escapes me.
Yet you spout the same propaganda as Al Quaida (sp?) and Hezbollah. If it's
not groupthink, it certainly sounds like it is.
> > The only difference is, you (apparantly deliberately) exhibit
> > it in places where you know it will cause arguments, and allow you to be
the
> > "underdog".
>
> I state my views. I don't care whether some of them cause arguments.
> I'm certainly not going to alter my analysis of issues depending on the
> fickle and often-changing mood of the public.
What I see, though, is that you only spout views of things that are going to
cause argements. You have nothing to contribute here otherwise, which
worries me, and not for my sake. You see, I like to argue too. I just
don't feel a need to do it all the time.
> You seem to feel one has an obligation to not say things to people they
> don't enjoy hearing.
Heh. You clearly didn't think this through, as if I felt any such thing, I
wouldn't be sitting here answering your post in the manner in which I am.
In fact, I wouldn't have answered any of your posts at all.
Luna
<snip>
Hi Honey!
>
> yes...I read it...so...how is his statement any different than a
> x-tian quoting the bible with regard to, biblical law, but not
> supporting the actual implementation of that law?
Yes, point taken - but (there's always one, eh?) western society doesn't do that
much anymore, it's certainly not sanctioned by the mainstream. This appears not
to be the case in the middle east. It's like peering in to the Christian Middle
Ages.
>
> I honestly think...that when it comes to viewpoints -- we americans
> are completely biased against Islam --- regardless -- because of our
> fear.
There's plenty of reason to be scared, especially since 9/11, especially since
we have become more familiar with the rhetoric of Islamic fundamentalists. It's
scary shit. They want us dead.
>
> To me, xtian's quoting the biblical law when an issues crops up that
> they find deplorable, is no different than other religions quoting
> their holy books. The scary part is when those extremist ---
> regardless of the religion-- put into action their interpretation of
> those holy books.......
Exactly. Beheading videos with the murderers scraming Allah Akbar...pretty
freaky.
>
> I'm constantly reminded of that compassionate, peace-loving book the
> bible when I'm told that x-tian's shall ". . . not suffer a witch to
> live".....
Yeah. It's not that our religion is any better than anyone else's, it's just
that we seem to have developed some level of tolerance over time. Our bloody
past does not collide with modern life *much. Not including the fringe
elements, but 99.99999% of westerners would never dream of killing you, Deb!
One thing that bothers me about what's going on in the mideast is the lack of
outcry - however, we know what happens when people dissent in a brutal
environment. Still. I'd like to see more (there have been some) decry the
sacrifice of youth to suicide bombing missions, the kidnappings and beheadings,
the terrorist murders.
I saw this documentary recently that helped explain the psychology of the people
that live in these places - it was called Death in Gazaa. The quote that got to
me went something like this - when you're surrounded by death all your life it's
only natural to transform death into victory.
Death as victory. It's not something that us westerners could hope to
comprehend.
Jean
gardenia
>> Do you have any idea what goes into convincing a 15 year old that
> becoming a suicide bomber will get him into heaven and provide him
> with x number of virgins? Those kids are indoctrinated from the time
> they are old enough to understand spoken language to believe this
> bullshit. I'm not arguing that small children become suicide
> bombers, but I don't find it at all hard to beleive that the teens
> who do become suicide bombers have been indoctrinated into it. And
> you rant about *American* parents.
This story caught my eye this weekend... It doesnt matter where you live...
or what religion you practice...
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/neo_nazi_rally
Luna
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> "Luna" <jean_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Heh, exactly Deb. I doubt you see many middle aged white men selling oranges
>>out of a bag on varuious sunny So Cal Blvds.
>
>
> the middle aged white man....owns the fields, but you rarely see them
> working 'em.
Immigrants do the shit work and they do it for very, very little. If there
wasn't a market for maids named Rosaria and gardeners named Jose, they wouldn't
be here.
>
>
>
>>I heard they recently outlawed hand weeding? Is that true? Too backbreaking.
>
> hmmm hadn't heard that.....I do know that, dependant upon the crop and
> availabe machinery, it's back breaking work.....asparagus is
> grueling......egads.
I read recently that it literally is backbreaking work - people suffer serious
injury doing it.
Jean
>
> d
Luna
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
<snip>
>
> It was a mistake that he was denied entry --- and I'm always baffled
> when people form opinions about a person or situation without all the
> information ---
I agree with you Deb (about it was a mistake that he was denied entry). It's a
free speech issue, imo.
After the whole Cat Stevens kerfuffle occurred, I was sorta pro Cat Stevens
until I read about the Ayotollah/Rushdie thing. I think it should've been
denounced by him, to me that's a moral certainty. So I'm left with a lack of
respect for Mr. Father & Son. I think there should be much denouncing within
the muslim community about so many things that are going on, and I'm just not
seeing it.
But I did see this, a tiny trickle, and that was heartening. (It's a good
article, worth the read).
The Associated Press
CAIRO, Egypt - Muslims worldwide are the main perpetrators of terrorism,
a humiliating and painful truth that must be acknowledged, a prominent
Arab writer and television executive wrote Saturday, as Middle East
media and officials expressed horror at the bloody rebel siege of a
Russian school.
Unusually forthright self-criticism followed the end of the hostage
crisis, along with warnings that such actions inflict more damage to the
image of Islam than all its enemies could hope. Arab leaders and Muslim
clerics denounced the school seizure as unjustifiable and expressed
their sympathy.
Russian commandos stormed the school Friday in Beslan, Russia; it had
been taken over by rebels demanding independence for Chechnya. Russian
officials said Saturday that the death toll was at least 250, with twice
as many wounded. Many of the casualties were children.
Images of terrified young survivors being carried from the scene aired
repeatedly on Arab TV stations. Pictures of dead and wounded children
ran on front pages of Arab newspapers Saturday.
"Holy warriors" from the Middle East long have supported fellow Muslims
fighting in Chechnya, and Russian officials said nine or 10 Arabs were
among militants killed.
"Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture,"
Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television wrote in
his daily column published in the pan-Arab Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It
ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are
Muslims!"
'Humiliating, painful' picture
Al-Rashed ran through a list of recent attacks by Islamic extremist
groups - in Russia, Iraq, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Yemen - many of which
are influenced by the ideology of Osama Bin Laden, the Saudi-born leader
of the al-Qaida terror network.
"Most perpetrators of suicide operations in buses, schools and
residential buildings around the world for the past 10 years have been
Muslims," he wrote. Muslims will be unable to cleanse their image unless
"we admit the scandalous facts," rather than offer condemnations or
justifications.
"The picture is humiliating, painful and harsh for all of us," al-Rashed
wrote.
Contributors to Islamic Web sites known for their extremist content had
mixed reactions on the hostage crisis, with some praising the
separatists. Others wrote that people should wait until the militants
had been identified before implicating Arabs in the drama.
Ahmed Bahgat, an Egyptian Islamist, wrote in his column in Egypt's
leading pro-government newspaper, Al-Ahram, that hostage-takers in
Russia as well as in Iraq are only harming Islam.
"If all the enemies of Islam united together and decided to harm it ...
they wouldn't have ruined and harmed its image as much as the sons of
Islam have done by their stupidity, miscalculations, and
misunderstanding of the nature of this age," Bahgat wrote.
'A new low'
The horrifying images of the dead and wounded Russian students "showed
Muslims as monsters who are fed by the blood of children and the pain of
their families."
An editorial in the Saudi English-language Arab News put some blame for
the bloody end to the school siege on Russian President Vladimir Putin,
saying he couldn't afford to lose his "tough-man image." But it added
that "the Chechens, with the choice of their targets, had put themselves
in a position where no one would shed tears when the punishment came.
They reached a new low when they chose toddlers as bargaining chips."
Heads of state from Egypt, Lebanon and Kuwait offered their sympathy
Friday to Russian officials and to the families of people caught up in
the hostage drama. A prominent Muslim cleric also denounced it.
"What is the guilt of those children? Why should they be responsible for
your conflict with the government?" Egypt's top Muslim cleric, Grand
Sheik Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, was quoted as saying during a Friday
sermon in Banha, 30 miles north of Cairo.
"You are taking Islam as a cover and it is a deceptive cover; those who
carry out the kidnappings are criminals, not Muslims," Tantawi, who
heads Al-Azhar University, the highest authority in the Sunni Islamic
world, was quoted by Egypt's Middle East News agency as saying.
© 2004 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may
not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed
>
>>
>>I was never discussing mainstream modernized islam - and if that is what
>>you wish to discuss or actually anything to do with islam or muslim, I'm
>>sure, as I said, you can find someone much more learned in it than I.
>
> I don't wish to discuss Islam --- mainstream or otherwise
>
>>
>>We do not agree regarding your outlook on islam being islam and its various
>>forms.
>
> huh? it's not an outlook...it just is......one doesn't need to
> "support" a belief system, or religious doctrine in order to be able
> to point out the misperceptions, or non-facts of that system.
>
>>And I've been down this road with you before and actually it was a
>>very unpleasant trip which I would not like to do again. You don't
>>understand what I am taking about most of the time and I don't much like
>>your tone. So lets pass on it this time.
>
> I don't have a *tone*.....I provided information regarding Yusuf Islam
> --- that's all...you can appreciate it or dis it....that's up to you
> --- as I said before, I am always boggled when folks have opinions on
> a given issue that have been formed in a vaccuum or are based on very
> one-sided, biased information....but ymmv and all that.
>
> However, I will respect your desire of not wanting to be bothered with
> the facts.
Eric Cordian
>> No, that's not what it means. If I say "police officers write a lot of
>> traffic citations", it does not mean that every single police officer
>> writes a lot of traffic citations personally.
> Actually, that's exactly what it says. You have to modify the subject in
> order for it not to say that.
No I don't. It means that lots of traffic citations are written by the
class of people called police officers. Ten officers could write all of
them, and it would still be a true statement.
> There is a world of difference between "Some parents" and "Parents", and
> there is a world of difference between "Police officers" and "Some police
> officers". The first implies the word all. The second specifies only a
> portion.
It's like saying "Poor people represent a large fraction of the homeless."
One does not imply every poor person is homeless, even if one does not say
explicitly "some poor people."
"Class A does B" means B is done by members of class A. Nothing is
implied about how B is distributed over members of class A. It could be
evenly. It could be unevenly.
I hope this clears things up.
Luna
<snip>
Howzabout you fix yer system clock? It's so annoying for those of us (most of
us) who sort by date. Please fix it.
Jean
>
Alan B. Mac Farlane
wind...@home.net wrote on 9/24/04 12:31 PM:
> Maybe Cat will take the "Peace Train" from now on.
>
> Jack
Nope ...can not ... he and Ted Kennedy are on the terror watch list made up
by Ashcroft and Bush doing such a superb job getting Ossama Ben Forgotten in
Iraq hiding in the massive underground garages with WMDs.
No go any where in the USA thanks to Bush.
sumbuddie not making disup
:)
Eric Cordian
> None of which answers the question asked. Would you consider Jesus
> weak-minded?
That's like asking "What color is serendippity?" It's not anywhere near a
well-formed question.
Jesus was a student of the Essenes, one of the original Mystery Schools.
He didn't resist the urge to meddle, pissed off the Romans, and got nailed
to a tree. The rest is public relations and organization building.
Jesus is dead. He's not God, or one-third of God. I do not presume to
judge whether he was a great thinker who was ahead of his time, or a
Charles Manson-like kook. If you consider the body count from
Christianity, it's probably the latter.
He's not coming back, and he has zero chance of ever bothering me, so I
really consider speculation about his motivation and mental state to be
wasted motion.
Eric Cordian
>> Not at all. I prefer a world without social classes, but I acknowlege
>> their reality.
> So...you advocate one thing and practice another?
This is really a stretch on your part. Practicing what one believes in no
way implies that one should refuse to see things as they are.
>> I'm not a member of any groups, and my views are entirely my own. So your
>> logic here escapes me.
> Yet you spout the same propaganda as Al Quaida (sp?) and Hezbollah. If it's
> not groupthink, it certainly sounds like it is.
Everything that can be said was probably said at least once by someone who
was unpopular. That's really irrelevant. Even the most loathesome
organizations tell the truth some of the time. That's like attacking Bush
by comparing his speeches to Hitler's.
Besides - do you really think there is an "Al Qaeda"? The term was once
use by Islamic fighters against the Soviets in Afghanistan, but I am not
aware of any group presently using it, except the US and its allies
labeling everything with it.
The worldwide structure of anti-US sentiment is far more complicated than
a single terrorist organization named "Al Qaeda" that everyone joins, and
gets the laminated membership card and cool decoder ring.
>> I state my views. I don't care whether some of them cause arguments.
>> I'm certainly not going to alter my analysis of issues depending on the
>> fickle and often-changing mood of the public.
> What I see, though, is that you only spout views of things that are going to
> cause argements. You have nothing to contribute here otherwise, which
> worries me, and not for my sake. You see, I like to argue too. I just
> don't feel a need to do it all the time.
No, I say lots of things that don't cause arguments. They just aren't the
memorable hundred post threads you so love replying to. :)
Eric Cordian
> Howzabout you fix yer system clock? It's so annoying for those of us (most of
> us) who sort by date. Please fix it.
I second that. It's very annoying to have ones replies before the post
one is replying to.
Luna
> Luna <jean_c...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Howzabout you fix yer system clock? It's so annoying for those of us (most
>> of
>> us) who sort by date. Please fix it.
>
> I second that. It's very annoying to have ones replies before the post
> one is replying to.
Yeah. It makes that particular poster's SHIT all float up to the top. Very
annoying.
Jean
astri
>"Eric Cordian" <e...@artifact.psychedelic.net> wrote in message
>news:41562651$0$448$a726...@news.hal-pc.org...
>> WayBackJack <I...@home.net> wrote:
>>
>> > If you ain't with us, you're agin us, so sayeth the mullahs.
>>
>> No, actually, it was George W. Bush who said that right after 9/11.
>
>Can you offer proof of this statement, or are you just libeling the
>president?
i seem to recall him conveying exactly that message a number of times.
whether he used exactly those words is moot.
-- astri
azure
news:db7c7ee1f452d26.e...@asarian-host.net...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Aside from all that - my big problem with it is
> one of safety at this point.
i agree. it's a wild world, and i don't want to be followed by a moon
shadow, nor to wake up and realize that morning is broken.
azure
(sorry, couldn't resist ... )