Late-term abortion of healthy son of healthy woman by Tiller
pnyikos
with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY, since the abortion
was done for no reason other than that her son (as she refers to him)
was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down Syndrome.
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
Excerpt:
She was not sure she could find joy in raising her son to such a
future. She didn't think she could cope with what she expected would
be a lifetime of sadness and struggle.
Giving her son up for adoption seemed even worse -- to wake each
morning not knowing where he was, imagining him scared and alone. "I
could not live with that fear all my life," Plazio said.
"I don't want anyone to think that I did this all for Matthew," she
said. "I was not just sparing him problems. I was sparing my daughter,
my husband, me and all those who depend on me
In March 2001, a week into her third trimester, she and her husband
flew to Tiller's clinic. They took the bunny blanket and a teddy bear
with a big red heart on its chest -- a gift to the baby from their
daughter, then 11.
------------ end of excerpt
The article is very sympathetic towards the woman (whose maiden name
is Plazio and whose married name is compassionately left untold)
towards Tiller, and towards abortion in general, so there is little
reason to doubt the story. I am sure lots of people reading this feel
the same way, but the following is undeniable: the oft-repeated crap
that "viable fetuses are never aborted" or that third trimester
abortions are done only when the woman's life is at risk or the baby
(well, the article calls it that!) has some lethal deformity just does
not hold water.
Peter Nyikos
Spartakus
> According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY,
Apparently NOT illegally. The article is dated May 31, 2005 and the
abortion had occurred in late 2001. Why didn't the Kansas authorities
prosecute?
> since the abortion was done for no reason other than that her son
> (as she refers to him) was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down
> Syndrome
> http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
And? Caring for children with Down's Syndrome can strain family
resources to the breaking point - mental and emotional as well as
financial. As Malapert used to say, that's because "Life - no matter
how horrible" is the watchword for anti-choicers.
> Excerpt:
> She was not sure she could find joy in raising her son to such a
> future. She didn't think she could cope with what she expected would
> be a lifetime of sadness and struggle.
Tellingly, PiNhead leaves out the first sentence in the paragraph
quoted above. Here's the whole thing:
"Plazio had studied special education in college; working
with adults with Down syndrome, she had seen their lives
as lonely, frustrating, full of hurt. She was not sure she
could find joy in raising her son to such a future. She
didn't think she could cope with what she expected
would be a lifetime of sadness and struggle."
[...]
> The article is very sympathetic towards the woman (whose maiden name
> is Plazio and whose married name is compassionately left untold)
> towards Tiller, and towards abortion in general, so there is little
> reason to doubt the story. I am sure lots of people reading this feel
> the same way, but the following is undeniable: the oft-repeated crap
> that "viable fetuses are never aborted" or that third trimester
> abortions are done only when the woman's life is at risk or the baby
> (well, the article calls it that!) has some lethal deformity just does
> not hold water.
Shorter PiNhead: "Life - no matter how horrible".
pnyikos
my first post, followed by the copy of the ones I did post, all from
an article in the Los Angeles Times:
>http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
Plazio asked to use her middle and maiden names to protect her
privacy. Many of Tiller's patients have not told their co-workers,
friends or even close relatives that they had terminated pregnancies.
Their abortions were verified by a review of clinic records they
supplied.
For Plazio, the heartache began with the unexpected. After a decade of
infertility, she was stunned to feel a kick to her ribs as she sat
through a meeting in February 2001. She had been dieting for weeks,
running five miles a day -- and wondering why she still couldn't
squeeze into her pants. She was six months pregnant.
Overjoyed, Plazio and her husband scheduled an amniocentesis. The
preliminary results were clean; bursting with excitement, Plazio, then
43, bought a baby blanket dotted with pale blue bunnies. Ten days
later, her doctor called with devastating news: More complete genetic
tests had determined that their son had Down syndrome.
Plazio had studied special education in college; working with adults
with Down syndrome, she had seen their lives as lonely, frustrating,
full of hurt. She was not sure she could find joy in raising her son
to such a future. She didn't think she could cope with what she
expected would be a lifetime of sadness and struggle.
> She was not sure she could find joy in raising her son to such a
> future. She didn't think she could cope with what she expected would
> be a lifetime of sadness and struggle.
>
> Giving her son up for adoption seemed even worse -- to wake each
> morning not knowing where he was, imagining him scared and alone. "I
> could not live with that fear all my life," Plazio said.
>
> "I don't want anyone to think that I did this all for Matthew," she
> said. "I was not just sparing him problems. I was sparing my daughter,
> my husband, me and all those who depend on me
>
> In March 2001, a week into her third trimester, she and her husband
> flew to Tiller's clinic. They took the bunny blanket and a teddy bear
> with a big red heart on its chest -- a gift to the baby from their
> daughter, then 11.
> ------------ end of excerpt
I find it very sad that Plazio apparently did not speak to the parents
of Down Syndrome children, many of whom would have told her that they
are full of love and a joy for them to raise despite all the extra
effort and special attention these children require. There are
support groups for people with Down Syndrome children, and I have seen
a very well written magazine published about the children and those
who care for them.
As for adults, well, the third child of Mary Ellen Rudin, has Down
Syndrome, and I got acquainted with him in 1974, when he was about 16
years old and it was a pleasure to converse with him despite his
somewhat limited vocabulary. Mary Ellen is the top researcher in my
field, set-theoretic topology, and an article about her in a leading
expository journal about two decades ago mentioned Mary Ellen saying
that her Down Syndrome son was gainfully employed. She said half-
seriously that while her other three children have performed to the
full extent of their abilities, this son performed beyond his
abilities.
One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
Syndrome. I think a competent adoption agency could have laid her
worries to rest about how he would have been treated by his adopotive
parents.
Peter Nyikos
Spartakus
on about marathons to demonstrate a point about taking on seemingly
impossible challenges. Well, a marathon can be an incredible, self-
actualizing experience, or a marathon can kill you. Similarly,
raising a special needs child can be an inspiring experience for the
whole family, or it can tear a family apart. I have known a family
that made such a commitment, with a deep faith that God would sustain
them. They all worked day and night to make it work. The end result
is that this family is in fragments - the parents are divorced and two
of the siblings are mortal enemies.
Here is a diary from Daily Kos where the author sharply criticizes
Sarah Palin for her ignorant glossing over the very real difficulties
of raising a Down's Syndrome child. Once you're past the poltical
polemics, you'll find a story that is heartwarming at first, but turns
heartbreaking by the end:
elizabeth
OK, fauxNy, again you lie. The fetus wasn't healthy, not by
definition.
> I find it very sad that Plazio apparently did not speak to the parents
> of Down Syndrome children, many
But not all. There are lots of parents of Down's Syndrome children
who have a terrible time, get divorced., and end up dumping the
child.
> of whom would have told her that they
> are full of love and a joy for them to raise despite all the extra
> effort and special attention these children require.
Which demonstrates that these children aren't by any definition
healty.
> There are
> support groups for people with Down Syndrome children, and I have seen
> a very well written magazine published about the children and those
> who care for them.
Which shows that it's very difficult to care for children who are not
healthy.
> As for adults, well, the third child of Mary Ellen Rudin, has Down
> Syndrome, and I got acquainted with him in 1974, when he was about 16
> years old and it was a pleasure to converse with him despite his
> somewhat limited vocabulary. Mary Ellen is the top researcher in my
> field, set-theoretic topology, and an article about her in a leading
> expository journal about two decades ago mentioned Mary Ellen saying
> that her Down Syndrome son was gainfully employed.
Yes, in subsidized jobs in protected environments; it costs more to
provide a job and support for such adults than can be afforded for
all.
> She said half-
> seriously that while her other three children have performed to the
> full extent of their abilities, this son performed beyond his
> abilities.
Well, bully for her. Plenty of perfectly normal children are
abandoned by parents, and by society. Just look at the homeless in
any city, they are dumped by a society that doesn't want to care for
all its members.
> One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> Syndrome.
That is a lie. There are no long waiting lists for children with
Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
care gulags.
> I think a competent adoption agency could have laid her
> worries to rest about how he would have been treated by his adopotive
> parents.
prove it. And there aren't adoption agencies out there, there are
state funded foster care and private adoption lawyers.
Stop lying, Oopsey. You still haven't demonstrated that healthy women
abort healthy fetuses. And FYI not all Down's Syndrome children are
as high functioning as the single case you mentioned. And you can bet
that the mother of that child had plenty of paid assistance to do the
actual work.
> Peter Nyikos
Adam A. Wanderer
news:99a812dd-1b01-48eb...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY, since the abortion
> was done for no reason other than that her son (as she refers to him)
> was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down Syndrome.
> http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
to stop or cure many of these defects, would like to raise a kid with Down's
Syndrome, and then tell us what it was like. Or, they might like to visit
Romania that has several institutions where Down's Syndrome kids and adults
are kept and tell us what it's like there. Better still, in the next
lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
it all from beginning to end.
Spartakus
> One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> Syndrome.
Say what? Do you really believe you can palm off such a wild-ass
claim without being called on it?
> I think a competent adoption agency could have laid her worry
> to rest about how he would have been treated by his adopotive
> parents.
Have you ever seen statistics on how much more abuse adoptive children
experience than biological children? What are they putting in the
water there in in Columbia, SC?
bjack...@yahoo.com
with this lady 100%. That baby should be aborted (and was). It's so
easy for you to sound 'holier-than-though' in casting judgement on her
since you aren't the one who has to raise a child with downs
syndrome. It's also cruel to bring such a child into this world.
I'm against abortion when it's done out of convenience because the
mother feels she's not in the mood to raise a child (when the child is
normal).
If you want proof I'm on the far right, read my blog:
http://immigration-globalization.blogspot.com/
pnyikos
> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> > trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY,
>
> Apparently NOT illegally. The article is dated May 31, 2005 and the
> abortion had occurred in late 2001. Why didn't the Kansas authorities
> prosecute?
Obviously, they couldn't start until they got wind of it, and it's a
pretty safe bet that they didn't get wind of it until after May 31,
2005. Despite what a fanatical ally of yours said, Tiller was never
under close scrutiny in any meaningful sense of the word. As for 2005
and thereafter...
It wasn't for want of trying, but Tiller and his lawyers kept up one
legal challenge after another until Phil Kline was defeated and the
guy who defeated him, Morrison, charged Tiller with a bunch of much
less serious breaches of the law. You can read a long article on the
subject by author Jack Cashill:
http://www.kfl.org/SiteResources/Data/Templates/templateb.asp?docid=971&DocName=The%20Man%20Behind%20the%20Curtain%20-%20June%203,%202008
> > since the abortion was done for no reason other than that her son
> > (as she refers to him) was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down
> > Syndrome
> >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
>
> And? Caring for children with Down's Syndrome can strain family
> resources to the breaking point - mental and emotional as well as
> financial.
Or not. See the case of Mary Ellen Rudin, who together with her
husband is a Professor Emeritus of the University of Wisconsin. I
wrote about her in the first post to the thread. Mary Ellen, as we
set-theoretic topologists all call her at topology conferences [ where
everyone knows who we are talking about if we don't give a last name]
certainly didn't think she was ruining the life of her two older
chidren when she decided to keep her third, her first son, a Down [not
Downs, twit--I've altered the thread title to reflect this and much
more] syndrome child.
She went on to have a fourth son, despite the old factoid that the
older you are, the more likely Down Syndrome is for your next child.
He is extremely intelligent and successful.
Another set-theoretic topologist and a close friend of mine has a
daughter, their only child, who has one son, who has Down Syndrome.
She and her husband are happy parents. If anyone reading this is
sincerely and compassionately interested, I can ask my friend whether
he would be willing to let me share more details about them.
> As Malapert used to say, that's because "Life - no matter
> how horrible" is the watchword for anti-choicers.
...which I am not, because I would like for it to be legal -- and I've
said this in direct follow-up to you, Lyman clone -- to abort AT ANY
stage in the pregnancy a child who is so horribly deformed or
pathological that to let it live is to consign it to a fate worse
than death.
But only an ignorant bigot would say that an otherwise healthy Down
Syndrome child falls into that category.
I take it you think Tiller did Christin, a healthy 19-year old with
Down Syndrome, a huge favor when he botched the abortion of her baby
and she (and her baby) died as a result:
http://www.justiceforchristin.com/
What you just said, as well as the bigoted and ignorant Subject: line
you used, (Only a PiNhead would characterize a Downs Syndrome child as
"healthy") certainly makes it seem that way.
> Tellingly, PiNhead leaves out the first sentence in the paragraph
> quoted above.
Quoted in my second post, which I did before I saw yours, bigot. And
I quoted several more as well, and I had plenty to say about Plazio's
sadly misguided attitude.
[...]
> > the following is undeniable: the oft-repeated crap
> > that "viable fetuses are never aborted" or that third trimester
> > abortions are done only when the woman's life is at risk or the baby
> > (well, the article calls it that!) has some lethal deformity just does
> > not hold water.
>
> Shorter PiNhead: "Life - no matter how horrible".
Go crawl under a rock, bigot.
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> > One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> > lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> > Syndrome.
>
> That is a lie. There are no long waiting lists for children with
> Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
> care gulags.
I said babies, not children, you bait-and-switch artist. We've been
through this before.
I suspect that is what your staunch ally Spartakus had in mind, too,
when he did his Lyman-clone song-and-dance in response to the same
thing. You pro-abortion (at least for Down Syndrome babies) fanatics
just love to talk about children in foster care, who have been
"wounded" by their parents and would pose a far greater challenge to
adoptive parents than a Down Syndrome child a few months old.
Hell, even another victim of Tiller was deeply missed by her adoptive
family when she died at the age of five, and she was a lot more of a
challenge than all but the unhealthiest Down Syndrome babies:
http://www.nrlc.org/news/1998/NRL11.98/sarah.html
Peter Nyikos
Peter Nyikos
elizabeth
> On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> > pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> > > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> > > trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY,
So, now all of a sudden, the Kansas authorities are incompetent and
there was no supervision of Dr Tillers, is that what you are saying,
fauxNy?
> > Apparently NOT illegally. The article is dated May 31, 2005 and the
> > abortion had occurred in late 2001. Why didn't the Kansas authorities
> > prosecute?
>
> Obviously, they couldn't start until they got wind of it, and it's a
> pretty safe bet that they didn't get wind of it until after May 31,
> 2005.
ok, PROVE IT.
> Despite what a fanatical ally of yours said, Tiller was never
> under close scrutiny in any meaningful sense of the word. As for 2005
> and thereafter...
PROVE IT. He's been a target of the antiaborts for decades.
> It wasn't for want of trying, but Tiller and his lawyers kept up one
> legal challenge after another until Phil Kline was defeated and the
> guy who defeated him, Morrison, charged Tiller with a bunch of much
> less serious breaches of the law. You can read a long article on the
> subject by author Jack Cashill:http://www.kfl.org/SiteResources/Data/Templates/templateb.asp?docid=9...
Christ Almighty, dump the prolie sites, if you can't find any
mainstream proof, you don't have a case.
> > > since the abortion was done for no reason other than that her son
> > > (as she refers to him) was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down
> > > Syndrome
> > >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
More bullshit.
> > And? Caring for children with Down's Syndrome can strain family
> > resources to the breaking point - mental and emotional as well as
> > financial.
>
> Or not. See the case of Mary Ellen Rudin, who together with her
> husband is a Professor Emeritus of the University of Wisconsin.
Who have enough funds to pay for care. Are you saying that Mary Ellen
just locked up the kids when she went to work? Or did she have PAID
ASSISTANTS to do the work? And I was unaware that the position of
ProfEme was a tag team deal ... or are both ProfEmes?
> I
> wrote about her in the first post to the thread. Mary Ellen, as we
> set-theoretic topologists all call her at topology conferences [ where
> everyone knows who we are talking about if we don't give a last name]
"We" still don't have proof you are who you say.
> certainly didn't think she was ruining the life of her two older
> chidren when she decided to keep her third, her first son, a Down [not
> Downs, twit--I've altered the thread title to reflect this and much
> more] syndrome child.
I'd prefer to hear that from them, and know just how much actual time
the family spent together.
> She went on to have a fourth son, despite the old factoid that the
> older you are, the more likely Down Syndrome is for your next child.
> He is extremely intelligent and successful.
So what? So that woman got to make her own choices and they worked
out for her? Wonderful! but that is not the case in all cases,
perfesser. And since you have no way of really knowing this woman,
your story has no verfiability. Most folks put on a stiff upper lip
in public and don't air their troubles a la Jon and Kate Plus Eight,
you know.
> Another set-theoretic topologist and a close friend of mine has a
> daughter, their only child, who has one son, who has Down Syndrome.
But not you. Why not ask that daughter to speak for herself?
> She and her husband are happy parents.
Proof? You can't speak for people you haven't even met!
> If anyone reading this is
> sincerely and compassionately interested, I can ask my friend whether
> he would be willing to let me share more details about them.
I'd prefer that the DAUGHTER SPEAK FOR HERSELF. And what gives you
the ability to read minds and know how they really feel?
> > As Malapert used to say, that's because "Life - no matter
> > how horrible" is the watchword for anti-choicers.
>
> ...which I am not, because I would like for it to be legal -- and I've
> said this in direct follow-up to you, Lyman clone -- to abort AT ANY
> stage in the pregnancy a child who is so horribly deformed or
> pathological that to let it live is to consign it to a fate worse
> than death.
And here comes more lying and deceiving . ..
> But only an ignorant bigot would say that an otherwise healthy Down
> Syndrome child falls into that category.
Down Syndrome children are not healthy, otherwise or otherwise. With
about half of them with serious heart defects and a whole spectrum of
severity of disorders, THEY ARE NOT BY ANY DEFINITION HEALTHY
pnyikos
> "pnyikos" <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>
> news:99a812dd-1b01-48eb...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...> According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> > trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY, since the abortion
> > was done for no reason other than that her son (as she refers to him)
> > was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down Syndrome.
> >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
>
> Perhaps a few members of the "pro-life" community, who also oppose research
> to stop or cure many of these defects,
...because the result is amniocentesis followed by abortion. There
are far fewer Down Syndrome babies born since these search-and-destroy
missions began in earnest.
And the March of Dimes is in the doghouse with pro-life organizations
for promoting the "search" part.
>would like to raise a kid with Down's
> Syndrome, and then tell us what it was like.
I'll try and find out what the latest stats are on the adoption scene.
>Or, they might like to visit
> Romania that has several institutions where Down's Syndrome kids and adults
> are kept and tell us what it's like there.
Romania is backward in a lot of respects, including the defying of one
international organization after another that is trying to persuade
them to put an end to their ban on international adoptions. I know a
couple who was strung out for over three years, hoping they could
adopt a Romanian orphan, always hoping the next turn of events would
be the last--and then the last turn of events was a flat out NO.
> Better still, in the next
> lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> it all from beginning to end.
If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
How about you? would you prefer to be slowly dismembered alive,
without the benefit of anesthesia, in a D&E abortion? or would you
prefer to run the risk of a digoxin-induction abortion by a Tiller
type abortionist, and being one of the unlucky few who survived it?
See the following case:
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Peter,
This bitch is crazy. I've suspected it for a long time, but now the
evidence is just so overwelming.
I just ignore her completely now and it drives her absolutely crazy.
This bitch is so warped and hung up on me that she has created this
fantasy that you are supposed to be me. That's how damn warped this
chick is in the head. She is so crazy about me and misses my replies
to her so much that she has tried to make you into me. Now, that's
crazy. She can't tell the truth from fiction any longer.
The other day I saw through someone elses post, she started
complaining about how she needs to catch up to the 21st century and
she was leaving the newsgroup. It was all an act. She was looking for
responses and someone to ask her to stay. When she didn't get that,
she slowly crept her way back into this newsgroup.
Seriously Peter, this bitch is insane. She has been warned to stop
stalking me from officials in my state. She isn't allowed to have any
contact with myself, family, or anyone I work with. She knows if she
shows her crooked nose, 60's reject looking wicked witch of the west
face in my area she would regret ever minute of it. It would be the
sorriest day of her loser life. If she made it out in a vertical
position she would be lucky. Her posts are monitored though, I will
not say by whom. But she is known for radical moves and she has had
many problems in the past with law enforcement. All she is left with
is just her rants in this newsgroup and that's as far as she can go
and will ever go.
You're dealing with a lunatic Peter, she is absolutley mentally
insane.
Hey, maybe one day if you ignore her she will try to say someone else
is you.
She can't function unless she is bitching at someone. She needs some
strong meds.
elizabeth
> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Better still, in the next
> > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> > it all from beginning to end.
>
> If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
May you get your choice and be so reborn!
> How about you? would you prefer to be slowly dismembered alive,
> without the benefit of anesthesia, in a D&E abortion?
fauxNy, if the woman is anesthetized, so is the fetus. And that is
done in the second tri, because of the fact that the cervix is not
dilated and thus the fetus can't be removed intact. Damn hell, you
claim to be a mathematician, why don't you confine your statements to
math and not medicine?
> or would you
> prefer to run the risk of a digoxin-induction abortion by a Tiller
> type abortionist,
Prove Tiller used digoxin.
> and being one of the unlucky few who survived it?
> See the following case:
>
> http://www.nrlc.org/news/1998/NRL11.98/sarah.html
More prolie bullshit.
Here is a real case for you
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/18/14179/3279
What Sarah Palin Didn't (and probably couldn't) Tell that Crowd in
Indiana (updated 2X with thanks)
by CPT Doom
Sat Apr 18, 2009 at 12:24:47 PM PDT
Like most of you, I have repeatedly seen video and news coverage of
Sarah Palin's speech to the Vanderburgh County Right to Life dinner
last week. And, again like most of you, I have been appalled to watch
her sanctimoniously christen herself the high priestess of "family
values" because she decided not to abort her fifth child, Trig, who
has Down's Syndrome. During the snippets of her speech that I have
been able to stomach watching, Palin talked about how she prayed after
learning Trig would have Down's and how the love in her heart just
exploded after his birth, and she knew she made the right choice. The
implication of her speech, of course, is that if those godless
liberals just had a little love - and followed Palin's version/
perversion of Christianity - we'd all stop cavalierly killing our
babies.
Well, at the risk of ticking off every parent of a special needs
child, I'm going to call "bullsh*t" on that one. Trig's just a year
old, and the Palins haven't yet begun to learn the challenges of
raising a child with Trig's difficulties. As someone whose extended
family has faced those challenges, I know of the ramifications - the
effects, both positive and negative - of the choice Governor Palin has
made.
CPT Doom's diary :: ::
I'm not saying she made the right choice or the wrong choice, but her
speech, in fact her entire attitude since Trig's birth, ignore the
true complexities and complications of her decision. Social
conservatives like Palin like to claim that it just takes love, or
God, or both to do the "right thing" in situations like this, but
those of us who are grown-ups know that there is far more to it.
Like the Palins, my grandparents were in their mid-40s when their
fifth and final child, my Uncle Ab, was born; he too had Down's.
Because it was 1947, Gram and Gramps were told they should consign Ab
to a state institution and forget he'd ever been born; Gram simply
could not do that. Unlike Governor Palin, Gram had no option of
abortion, but she did have the option to raise her son or not, and she
simply could not fathom forgetting his existence.
It was very rare for families to keep special needs children at home
in those days, and there were pitifully few resources to help families
like my mother's. When I have related my grandparents' decision to
people nowadays, they seem to think Gram and Gramps were some kind of
minor saints for what they did. It is true that rather than being
abandoned in a state facility, Ab lived most of his 22 years
surrounded by a loving family who strived to give him as full a life
as possible, but that is only part of the story. The rest is the story
of a family nearly torn apart by the difficulties of raising a child
who would mentally stall around the age of 2.
I was just a baby myself when Ab died, so I have no memories of him,
but I grew up hearing about him and how the family coped. Ma used to
say that in situations like this you either laugh or cry, and her
family chose to laugh, so what we mainly heard growing up were what we
called the "Ab stories" - the wacky adventures and antics of living
with a perpetual toddler.
As children my sister and I, along with our younger cousins, would ask
to hear the Ab stories again and again, particularly when Ma, a
masterful storyteller, was the one doing the talking. We would laugh
'til we cried about the time Uncle Bob inadvertantly taught Ab to
drive, and he managed to understand the intricacies of an old-
fashioned three-speed, column-mounted manual transmission enough to
take off on Gramps one day when he left Ab in the car. The image of my
then 62-year-old Gramps running after the car (Ab never did manage to
get it into second, so he didn't get far) and then later bursting into
the house yelling "Who taught that kid to drive!" was simply priceles.
We learned about how my Aunt Eileen taught the then 8-year-old Ab to
crawl on the morning of her college graduation; how Ab took an old
doll carriage and converted it into a carrier for his bat, glove and
baseball and would cruise down to the field at the end of the street
to play with the other kids (who were infinitely kind to the funny-
looking retarded kid);how Ma avoided a couple of speeding tickets when
Ab, full of love like many Down's kids, tried to hug the patrolman;
how Ab would try to order his favorite meal at Friendly restaurant and
completely flummox the waitresses who could not comprehend his speech
(Ma would serenely turn to the waitress and say "I believe the young
gentleman would like...").
As we matured, though, we also understood the darker side of those
stories, the stresses that raising Ab put on my grandparents and the
other 4 kids. We learned about the endless cycle of medical crises,
the late-night rides to the hospital, and the number of times Ab was
thought to be dying, only to rally. We learned about how Gramps,
already stressed from supporting a family on a mailman's salary (about
$80 every 2 weeks in the mid-50s) and dealing with another sick child
- my mother - "crawled into the bottle and pulled the cork in after,"
as my uncle would say. We were appalled to hear about how it would
take 8 or 9 full-grown adults, mainly family members, to hold Ab down
during painful medical procedures, and how he would lash out at them,
feeling understandably betrayed.
The funny Ab stories stop around 1967, although Ab lived another 2
years. That's when Gramps died, leaving Ab a lot less loving and
happy. His limited mind simply could not comprehend death - if Daddy's
car is in the driveway, where was he? His tantrums became worse and
more violent, and he would leave Gram, already coping with the heart
disease that would kill her, bruised and bloody. Ma and her siblings
faced the horrible choice of what to do with Ab - in the words of
Gram's doctor "it's your mother or your brother; you have to choose."
For a few months Ma and her siblings, all of whom had growing families
and jobs to handle, tried keeping Ab each for a few weeks (none of
them could afford to keep him full-time), but that just confused him
and caused stress in 4 more families. Had they continued, Ma would
say, there would have been 4 divorces.
So in 1969 the siblings made the horrible choice, and
institutionalized Ab. As part of the deal they were not allowed to see
him for 2 months, to let him "acclimate." He died within 6 weeks. The
official cause was pneumonia, but Ma always said it was really a
broken heart. One year after his death came the worst blow, a
newspaper expose that detailed the rampant abuse of residents of the
facility Ab was sent to. The resulting guilt and shame caused a wedge
among the siblings that has never really healed. I often wonder how
much of my Uncle Jack's alcoholism was due to genetics, and how much
was due to guilt about Ab; he was reportedly inconsolable at Ab's
funeral and began drinking more heavily soon after.
I understand that modern medical technology and social support systems
mean that the Palins will not face the same stresses as my
grandparents. I also understand that having a Down's child can be a
wonderfully fulfilling experience; Down's kids seem to be almost
perfectly innocent - the very best of humanity with little of the
worst.
But even with support, even with good medical care, which will only
ensure that Trig outlives his parents, the Palins are only beginning
the difficult journey of raising a Down's child. And that journey is
not one that Todd and Sarah Palin will take alone - all 4 of their
other children will also be there. Already their oldest two children,
who like my aunt and uncle were teenagers when their Down's brother
was born, have less education and fewer skills than my working-class
relatives; will they have the capability of caring for their brother
when their parents are gone, or too old? I really hope that Trig lives
his life in a loving and supportive family environment, but it is just
as likely that his family will suffer damage from the challenges of
raising him.
Social conservatives love to point to the 90% abortion rates of those
who learn they have a Down's child as evidence of moral decay, but I
simply can't see it that way. Whatever the reason, abortion is rarely
a decision made quickly or easily. When faced with the overwhelming
emotional, psychological and financial stresses that special needs
children bring to their entire families, can we really be shocked that
so many choose to abort? We may dislike their decisions, but I don't
believe we can consider them either cavalier or capricious.
The core of the abortion debate is a classic moral dilemna, one that
by definition has no "right" answer. Every decision about pregnancy
and abortion means balancing the human rights of the pregnant woman
and the developing human rights of the fetus - a balance the Supreme
Court clumisly tried to resolve in Roe v. Wade. It cannot be solved
with the simple arguments and political slogans of the social
conservatives, no matter how folksy the speaker.
Update: Here is the obligatory "Holy Cow" I'm on the rec list update!
I posted this and then went to run errands, never thinking anyone
would read it.
I have been thinking about writing this for a couple of days and the
words just came this morning. I never thought it would get such a
wonderful response. So many issues that the religious right believe
they have settled are actually just as complex - my uncle's case is
just one example. One of the things I truly appreciate about Daily Kos
is the thoughtful and intelligent (for the most part) discussions we
can have about a variety of issues. I can only imagine the Freeper
response to such a diary.
Update 2: I've addressed this in the comments, but want to make two
things clear. One is that I am not into eugenics; I don't believe that
any fetus that is not "normal" should be aborted. The second is that I
am not arguing that every family who faces a challenge like my
mother's family did will end up estranged, alcoholic or with broken
marriages. There are many families who have thrived when dealing with
a kid with special needs, including one who lived across the street
from my family when I was young.
My point with this diary is to demonstrate, through one example, that
the answers are not a simple as Sarah Palin and her ilk claim.
Progressives aren't pro-choice because we advocate killing babies or
because we lack love or faith in God (and even those of us who are
atheists still have a much higher faith in the inherent goodness of
humanity than the typical conservative). Rather, we are pro-choice
because we understand that every family, every woman, who faces the
question of abortion, for whatever reason, faces it with a specific
set of circumstances that no one but the individual can know and
assess. To even claim that we can, through legislation, make global
decisions about which of those circumstances should allow for a choice
of abortion and which cannot is so simplistic as to be laughable, if
it weren't such a serious issue.
james g. keegan jr.
<350bad61-a85a-44f1...@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
Ospr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 8, 3:52�pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> This bitch is crazy. I've suspected it for a long time, but now the
> evidence is just so overwelming.
wasn't i just reading a quote from you last night so the effect that
you'd not demean someone's mental health?
but it's not much of a surprise that you lied.
> I just ignore her completely now
which is why you wrote so much about her in a response to the person
posting as peter nyikos?
i'll bet you don't understand how people see that.
> and it drives her absolutely crazy.
o thought you just said she *was* crazy. how can you drive a crazy
person crazy?
> This bitch
i suspect that works in your family with your wife and daughter(s),
right?
[...]
> Seriously Peter, this bitch is insane.
you're repeating what the prisoners said about you when you were still
allowed to be a guard, aren't you?
> She has been warned to stop stalking me from officials in my state.
"If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
lied."
coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseah...@hotmail.com>
in news:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
> She isn't allowed to have any contact with myself, family, or anyone
> I work with.
"If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
lied."
coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseah...@hotmail.com>
in news:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
> She knows if she shows her crooked nose, 60's reject looking wicked
> witch of the west face in my area she would regret ever minute of it.
> It would be the sorriest day of her loser life. If she made it out
> in a vertical position she would be lucky.
is this the big, tough, coward former prison guard threatening a woman?
> Her posts are monitored
"If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
lied."
coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseah...@hotmail.com>
in news:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
> But she is known for radical moves and she has had many problems in
> the past with law enforcement.
"If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
lied."
coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseah...@hotmail.com>
in news:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
osprey will run away from each of his claims here, as he has run away
from so many hundreds of others. maybe he'll shriek "bitch" at the women
in his family to help him feel less inadequate.
--
"Note: NOWHERE...and I'll repeat..NOWHERE do you see me mentioning the New York Times. " --scumbag heishman posting as Ospre...@hotmail.com in news:9a845215-1896-47e0-acb9-fca427f2c...@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com
apprently forgetting he had previously written:
"New York Times has all ready sent me a response stating you have been warned." -- prison clerk heishman lying as "Osprey" <noneedtok...@mail.com> in news:2rCdnZNy7LA...@comcast.com
Ospr...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> nip
>
> > > Better still, in the next
> > > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> > > it all from beginning to end.
>
> > If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> > third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>
> May you get your choice and be so reborn!
Are you still smoking the weed?
I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
elizabeth
Better get Google to take this one down immediately, Oopsey, because
you just confirmed what I've been saying about you.
Now, all he has to do is prove any of this. Esp about the claim I've
had run ins with the law/.
You see, in my long life, I've never been arrested, never got so much
as a traffic ticket.
Which is why a real LEO would never have written what Oopsey just
wrote. Of course, no real agency would hire him, and that's his
problem.
Poor Oopsey, he seems to feel that even though he's been busted more
than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
fauxNy and Oopsey are . . well, that's how he outed himself as
Bystander and ObKY before.
Ordinarily I feel pity for the afflicted, but you know, there are
people who deserve to be treated as pariahs.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Hold your breath wench.
>
> Now, all he has to do is prove any of this. Esp about the claim I've
> had run ins with the law/.
Nope, you have to prove you didn't get in trouble. Just like you ask
others.
>
> You see, in my long life, I've never been arrested, never got so much
> as a traffic ticket.
And you know that's a lie..:o)
You've been in a lot of trouble, in fact you were regarded as anti-
government in the 70's and in trouble a lot. Didn't you lost some
jobs due to your rebel behavior?
I know more than you want me to know.
Go ahead, prove you were never arrested.
>
> Which is why a real LEO would never have written what Oopsey just
> wrote. Of course, no real agency would hire him, and that's his
> problem.
>
> Poor Oopsey, he seems to feel that even though he's been busted more
> than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
> time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
> PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
> fauxNy and Oopsey are . . well, that's how he outed himself as
> Bystander and ObKY before.
>
> Ordinarily I feel pity for the afflicted, but you know, there are
> people who deserve to be treated as pariahs.- Hide quoted text -
Aww, you're ashamed and don't want people to know your past and your
brush with the law.
Are you still smoking all that dope?
james g. keegan jr.
<761f4d23-4c55-405a...@21g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Ospr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Jun 8, 5:12�pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
> Go ahead, prove you were never arrested.
liar bobby, former corrupt prison guard gets caught lying again and,
since he cannot prove his false claims, he tries to have the target of
his stalking prove their innocence.
law enforcement officer indeed.
elizabeth
He's really over the points now, isn't he?
How long before he has to tell Google to take that one down?
> In article
> <350bad61-a85a-44f1-bbad-af9678da2...@j20g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 3:52 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > This bitch is crazy. I've suspected it for a long time, but now the
> > evidence is just so overwelming.
>
> wasn't i just reading a quote from you last night so the effect that
> you'd not demean someone's mental health?
LOL . . . the utter stupidity of Oopsey never fails to be tragically
amusing.
> but it's not much of a surprise that you lied.
>
> > I just ignore her completely now
>
> which is why you wrote so much about her in a response to the person
> posting as peter nyikos?
Right, and just did make a bizarre response to me? I am so amazed at
how little insight he has. I want to believe that it's someone who
really hates Oopsey impersonating him online to discredit him! I
just feel so sorry for anyone he has to deal with in real life. CAn
you imagine what he's like in person?
> i'll bet you don't understand how people see that.
>
> > and it drives her absolutely crazy.
>
> o thought you just said she *was* crazy. how can you drive a crazy
> person crazy?
Yeah, he insists he knows what everyone thinks, how sane everyone is,
etc ... which truly *is* a sign of mental illness ...
> > This bitch
>
> i suspect that works in your family with your wife and daughter(s),
> right?
Well, didn't his first wife dump him? And took one away with her, you
know, the one who had the child out of wedlock? I only know about
what he posts in here, and his stories do change. But his methods and
even the very insults he uses remain consistent. I've seen bots with
more creative writing skills.
> [...]
>
> > Seriously Peter, this bitch is insane.
>
> you're repeating what the prisoners said about you when you were still
> allowed to be a guard, aren't you?
That's just it, no real LEO would dare make such statements about
*anyone* in any sort of a public forum. You do that in my state and
you lose your badge! Conduct Unbecoming and all that.
> > She has been warned to stop stalking me from officials in my state.
I'd like to see some proof of that ... since I never stalked him, and
only took him up on his dare to report him to the DoC. Stalking?
He's the one who demanded that I, as well as other females over the
years from this ng, come to visit him so he could "prove" his
assertions about his identity, job, etc. And wasn't he the one who
used DoC resources to do an investigation on Patrick? If I've been
told to stop stalking him, I'd sure like to see some proof ... got no
emails, no phone calls since the incident a while back, which was well
documented in here, even though Oopsey did have to have Google take
down most of his posts.
What officials? Really, this does take the cake ... but he's being
monitored, I'm sure, and as I told the last person at the DoC I spoke
to, my concern was that he was bringing down a lot of disrespect upon
the department by constantly referring to them. They don't need the
bad publicity, and I felt it was my duty to just tell them what he
was doing in here. He's their responsibility, I don't care, because
it's not my state. If the taxpayers of Delaware want to fund his
lifestyle, fine.
> "If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
> lied."
> coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseahawk...@hotmail.com>
> innews:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
Well, no one from any agency in the state of Delaware has been in
contact with me for some time now. And I never was warned to stop
stalking Oopsey, because I never stalked him! Responding to his
bullshit in the ng isn't stalking.
> > She isn't allowed to have any contact with myself, family, or anyone
> > I work with.
Except that I have never tried to contact you, your family, or anyone
Oopsey works with. I merely took him up on his dare to contact the
DoC if I didn't like what he was saying. I did, he got busted, he got
booted from the computers, and he's so obsessed with me that he's now
publicly libeling me ... but since he's known as the most corrupt,
forging liar in the ng, it's not like anyone would take his rantings
as anything but more of his usual lies.
I guess bringing up the old taunt another poster called him, COMBOVER
FATASS LIAR, just pushed him right over the edge .... I sure hope he
was posting drunk, because that would excuse the absolute lunacy he's
now displaying. Like watching a trainwreck.
> "If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
> lied."
> coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseahawk...@hotmail.com>
> innews:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
>
> > She knows if she shows her crooked nose, 60's reject looking wicked
> > witch of the west face in my area she would regret ever minute of it.
> > It would be the sorriest day of her loser life. If she made it out
> > in a vertical position she would be lucky.
>
> is this the big, tough, coward former prison guard threatening a woman?
Yes, and considering how many times he's demanded I go to Delaware to
meet him, and if I don't, that meant that I was afraid of him and was
lying . .. well . .. . it's not the first time he's attacked women in
here, remember Flower Power and others?
> > Her posts are monitored
Then so are his ...
> "If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
> lied."
> coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseahawk...@hotmail.com>
> innews:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
>
> > But she is known for radical moves and she has had many problems in
> > the past with law enforcement.
OK, present my record ... how would you have access to the police data
bases anyway?
> "If you can't prove it on your next post, by default you admit you
> lied."
> coward bobby heishman posting as"SeahawkFan" <deseahawk...@hotmail.com>
> innews:xb6dnQH276BlFX_a...@comcast.com:
>
> osprey will run away from each of his claims here, as he has run away
> from so many hundreds of others. maybe he'll shriek "bitch" at the women
> in his family to help him feel less inadequate.
I think we're in for a repeat performance of huge spewage of more
bullshit, followed by Google take downs of the more egregious posts,
and him running away . .. how many times has he played that over the
years?
> --
> "Note: NOWHERE...and I'll repeat..NOWHERE do you see me mentioning the New York Times. " --scumbag heishman posting as Ospre...@hotmail.com innews:9a845215-1896-47e0-acb9-fca427f2c...@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com
elizabeth
> On Jun 8, 4:11 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > nip
>
> > > > Better still, in the next
> > > > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> > > > it all from beginning to end.
>
> > > If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> > > third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>
> > May you get your choice and be so reborn!
Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
> Are you still smoking the weed?
>
> I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
OK, present what you know and where you obtained it. Did you misuse
DoC computers again? Pay for a background investigation, like you did
Patrick?
And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
Ospr...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Jun 8, 4:11 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > nip
>
> > > > > Better still, in the next
> > > > > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> > > > > it all from beginning to end.
>
> > > > If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> > > > third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>
> > > May you get your choice and be so reborn!
>
> Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
>
> > Are you still smoking the weed?
>
> > I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
>
> OK, present what you know and where you obtained it.
Nope, you have to prove you were never in trouble.
Did you misuse
> DoC computers again?
I've never misused them in the first place.
Pay for a background investigation, like you did
> Patrick?
Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
>
> And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
Yes, you are a pot head.
> What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
> that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
Prove it.
> implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
Prove you don't have a criminal record.
elizabeth
Present your proof immediately, and provide contact information as to
the source.
You'd better speak to your supposed lawyer about this as soon as you
can. This is the sort of thing that has gotten you into trouble
before.
> > Better get Google to take this one down immediately, Oopsey, because
> > you just confirmed what I've been saying about you.
>
> Hold your breath wench.
Present any and all records of any criminal matters I have been
involved in. Since I have never been convicted of any crime in any
court, good luck finding any. And keep in mind that only convictions
are public record. I'd like the court case numbers immediately.
>
>
> > Now, all he has to do is prove any of this. Esp about the claim I've
> > had run ins with the law/.
>
> Nope, you have to prove you didn't get in trouble. Just like you ask
> others.
Nope. You made the accusations that I have been in legal trouble.
And as I keep schooling you, no one can prove a negative. Go ahead
and prove otherwise!
>
>
> > You see, in my long life, I've never been arrested, never got so much
> > as a traffic ticket.
>
> And you know that's a lie..:o)
I did get a couple of warnings in Minnesota, but no actual tickets.
> You've been in a lot of trouble, in fact you were regarded as anti-
> government in the 70's and in trouble a lot. Didn't you lost some
> jobs due to your rebel behavior?
Oh, I make no secret of my family's proud heritage of political
involvement. My father was disappointed he didn't make Nixon's
enemies list. Both my parents were University of Minnesota Parlor
Pinks. They were hanging out in West Bank and made it so cool Bob
Dylan got his start there. My maternal grandfather was a Wobbly,
Marxist, and Freemason, got run out of Torino because he was helping
unionize the Fiat plant, and back in those days you could get killed
for it.
Rebel behavior? Well, to be sure, I was a punk rocker in the
1970s . ... but that was the point ....
> I know more than you want me to know.
>
> Go ahead, prove you were never arrested.
>
Can't prove a negative. And it's up to you to prove I was.
>
>
> > Which is why a real LEO would never have written what Oopsey just
> > wrote. Of course, no real agency would hire him, and that's his
> > problem.
>
> > Poor Oopsey, he seems to feel that even though he's been busted more
> > than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
> > time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
> > PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
> > fauxNy and Oopsey are . . well, that's how he outed himself as
> > Bystander and ObKY before.
>
> > Ordinarily I feel pity for the afflicted, but you know, there are
> > people who deserve to be treated as pariahs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> Aww, you're ashamed and don't want people to know your past and your
> brush with the law.
> Are you still smoking all that dope?
What brush with the law? You mean the SFPD back in 1982?
elizabeth
> On Jun 8, 5:41 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 8, 4:11 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > nip
>
> > > > > > Better still, in the next
> > > > > > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> > > > > > it all from beginning to end.
>
> > > > > If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> > > > > third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>
> > > > May you get your choice and be so reborn!
>
> > Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
>
> > > Are you still smoking the weed?
>
> > > I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
>
> > OK, present what you know and where you obtained it.
>
> Nope, you have to prove you were never in trouble.
>
> Did you misuse
>
> > DoC computers again?
>
> I've never misused them in the first place.
>
> Pay for a background investigation, like you did
>
> > Patrick?
Present your proof, and how you obtained it. Document or retract.
> Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
>
You made it up?
>
> > And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
>
> Yes, you are a pot head.
>
> > What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
> > that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
>
> Prove it.
Can't prove a negative.
> > implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
>
> Prove you don't have a criminal record.
Prove you don't fuck your daughter.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
"yawn"
And you better talk to yours with all of the accusations and lies
you've told about me and my Department.
Oh yea, try something wench. You know your restrictions.
>
> > > Better get Google to take this one down immediately, Oopsey, because
> > > you just confirmed what I've been saying about you.
>
> > Hold your breath wench.
>
> Present any and all records of any criminal matters I have been
> involved in.
You have to prove you don't have a criminal history.
Just like you do to others.
Since I have never been convicted of any crime in any
> court, good luck finding any.
Prove it.
And keep in mind that only convictions
> are public record. I'd like the court case numbers immediately.
>
>
>
> > > Now, all he has to do is prove any of this. Esp about the claim I've
> > > had run ins with the law/.
>
> > Nope, you have to prove you didn't get in trouble. Just like you ask
> > others.
>
> Nope.
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Yep...yep you do have to prove you didn't
get in trouble, just like you ask others.
You made the accusations that I have been in legal trouble.
> And as I keep schooling you, no one can prove a negative. Go ahead
> and prove otherwise!
Nope, you have to prove you didn't get in trouble with the law.
>
>
>
> > > You see, in my long life, I've never been arrested, never got so much
> > > as a traffic ticket.
>
> > And you know that's a lie..:o)
>
> I did get a couple of warnings in Minnesota, but no actual tickets.
Ah, your story is changing..:o)
You know I know more than you want me to know.
That is an ugly mug shot of you too. But then again, looking at that
face of yours...I shudder...ugh.
>
> > You've been in a lot of trouble, in fact you were regarded as anti-
> > government in the 70's and in trouble a lot. Didn't you lost some
> > jobs due to your rebel behavior?
>
> Oh, I make no secret of my family's proud heritage of political
> involvement. My father was disappointed he didn't make Nixon's
> enemies list. Both my parents were University of Minnesota Parlor
> Pinks. They were hanging out in West Bank and made it so cool Bob
> Dylan got his start there. My maternal grandfather was a Wobbly,
> Marxist, and Freemason, got run out of Torino because he was helping
> unionize the Fiat plant, and back in those days you could get killed
> for it.
>
> Rebel behavior? Well, to be sure, I was a punk rocker in the
> 1970s . ... but that was the point ....
You're a punk, that's for sure..:o)
>
> > I know more than you want me to know.
>
> > Go ahead, prove you were never arrested.
>
> Can't prove a negative. And it's up to you to prove I was.
Nope, it's not up to me. I'm playing by your rules, the rules YOU made
up.
Remember?
You've accused me of many things that are untrue. When you were asked
to prove them, you told me to prove you were wrong.
So.....
You have to prove I am wrong.
It's your game, these are your rules. If you don't like the rules,
don't play the game.
You can stop lying about me and my Department for starters and just
jump off of the nearest cliff. No one is going to miss you.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Which is why a real LEO would never have written what Oopsey just
> > > wrote. Of course, no real agency would hire him, and that's his
> > > problem.
>
> > > Poor Oopsey, he seems to feel that even though he's been busted more
> > > than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
> > > time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
> > > PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
> > > fauxNy and Oopsey are . . well, that's how he outed himself as
> > > Bystander and ObKY before.
>
> > > Ordinarily I feel pity for the afflicted, but you know, there are
> > > people who deserve to be treated as pariahs.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Aww, you're ashamed and don't want people to know your past and your
> > brush with the law.
> > Are you still smoking all that dope?
>
> What brush with the law? You mean the SFPD back in 1982?-
<snicker>
The truth is slowly leaking out about you and you're giving up more
information than you want to.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
> On Jun 8, 2:48 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 8, 5:41 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > > > On Jun 8, 4:11 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > nip
>
> > > > > > > Better still, in the next
> > > > > > > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> > > > > > > it all from beginning to end.
>
> > > > > > If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> > > > > > third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>
> > > > > May you get your choice and be so reborn!
>
> > > Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
>
> > > > Are you still smoking the weed?
>
> > > > I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
>
> > > OK, present what you know and where you obtained it.
>
> > Nope, you have to prove you were never in trouble.
>
> > Did you misuse
>
> > > DoC computers again?
>
> > I've never misused them in the first place.
>
> > Pay for a background investigation, like you did
>
> > > Patrick?
>
> Present your proof, and how you obtained it. Document or retract.
Nope, I'm playing by your rules. You have to prove I'm wrong.
You will not retract on the lies you've told about me, don't ask me to
retract on anything wench.
>
> > Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
>
> You made it up?
You have to prove that.
>
>
>
> > > And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
>
> > Yes, you are a pot head.
>
> > > What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
> > > that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
>
> > Prove it.
>
> Can't prove a negative.
You're a zero, I already knew that.
>
> > > implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
>
> > Prove you don't have a criminal record.
>
> Prove you don't fuck your daughter.-
Oh you sick bitch, you're into that sick shit?
You are a sick one.
Spartakus
> Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > > According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> > > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> > > trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY,
> > Apparently NOT illegally. The article is dated May 31, 2005 and the
> > abortion had occurred in late 2001. Why didn't the Kansas authorities
> > prosecute?
> Obviously, they couldn't start until they got wind of it, and it's a
> pretty safe bet that they didn't get wind of it until after May 31,
> 2005. Despite what a fanatical ally of yours said, Tiller was never
> under close scrutiny in any meaningful sense of the word. As for
> 2005 and thereafter...
Even more obviously, the procedure WAS legal for that set of
circumstances, and your wishing it was illegal does not make it so.
> It wasn't for want of trying, but Tiller and his lawyers kept up one
> legal challenge after another until Phil Kline was defeated and the
> guy who defeated him, Morrison, charged Tiller with a bunch of much
> less serious breaches of the law. You can read a long article on the
> subject by author Jack Cashill:
> http://www.kfl.org/SiteResources/Data/Templates/templateb.asp?docid=9...
Kansans for Life? No thank you. But thanks for pointing out that
even after Kline left office, Tiller continued to be hounded by
trumped-up charges. This supports my point that Kansas *was* a
hostile poltical/legal environment for Tiller, and that he had to do
everything by the book, with "i"s dotted and "t"s crossed.
> > > since the abortion was done for no reason other than that her son
> > > (as she refers to him) was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down
> > > Syndrome
> > >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
> > And? Caring for children with Down's Syndrome can strain family
> > resources to the breaking point - mental and emotional as well as
> > financial.
> Or not. See the case of Mary Ellen Rudin, who together with her
> husband is a Professor Emeritus of the University of Wisconsin.
See where? There is lots of information about Ms. Rudin's
professional life, but I found nothing about her family life.
> I wrote about her in the first post to the thread. Mary Ellen, as we
> set-theoretic topologists all call her at topology conferences [ where
> everyone knows who we are talking about if we don't give a last name]
> certainly didn't think she was ruining the life of her two older
> chidren when she decided to keep her third, her first son, a Down [not
> Downs, twit--I've altered the thread title to reflect this and much
> more] syndrome child.
"Down", "Downs" and "Down's" are all accepted, twit.
> She went on to have a fourth son, despite the old factoid that the
> older you are, the more likely Down Syndrome is for your next child.
Do you even know what a "factoid" is? Here, I'll eliminate the
suspense and tell you - a "factoid" is a piece of information that
appears to be a true fact, but isn't. The term "factoid" is the new
"old wives' tale".
And guess what? It is a *fact* (not a factoid) that the risk of Down
['][s] Syndrome ramps up as the woman ages. And guess what else? The
risk of birth defects of all kinds ramps up as the *father* ages.
> He is extremely intelligent and successful.
Please post his SAT scores.
[...]
IAAH
> On Jun 8, 5:41 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 8, 4:11 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> nip
>>>>>> Better still, in the next
>>>>>> lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
>>>>>> it all from beginning to end.
>>>>> If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
>>>>> third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>>>> May you get your choice and be so reborn!
>> Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
>>
>>> Are you still smoking the weed?
>>> I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
>> OK, present what you know and where you obtained it.
>
> Nope, you have to prove you were never in trouble.
Uh, no, fuckstick - you have to prove your case.
Remember how the law goes? I mean, even though you've only
been on the wrong side of it, you should have learnt SOMETHING.
>
> Did you misuse
>> DoC computers again?
>
> I've never misused them in the first place.
Oh, yes, you have.
>
> Pay for a background investigation, like you did
>> Patrick?
>
> Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
>
>
>> And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
>
> Yes, you are a pot head.
>
>
>> What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
>> that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
>
> Prove it.
>
>> implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
No, actually. It isn't. Just like stating that you are,
undoubtedly and professionally an idiot isn't. I say
professionally because you've obviously progressed far
beyond amateur idiocy.
>
> Prove you don't have a criminal record.
Prove you don't, prat.
--
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because
if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more
than that of blindfolded fear.
- Thomas Jefferson
Ospr...@hotmail.com
> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 5:41 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>> On Jun 8, 4:11 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Jun 8, 1:02 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>>> nip
> >>>>>> Better still, in the next
> >>>>>> lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
> >>>>>> it all from beginning to end.
> >>>>> If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
> >>>>> third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
> >>>> May you get your choice and be so reborn!
> >> Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
>
> >>> Are you still smoking the weed?
> >>> I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
> >> OK, present what you know and where you obtained it.
>
> > Nope, you have to prove you were never in trouble.
>
> Uh, no, fuckstick - you have to prove your case.
Nope, I am playing her game. She has accused me from being
"restricted" to being on "probation" to being "fired" and not ONCE
proven her claims. When asked she always reverts back and says it's up
to me to prove she is wrong.
So turn about is fair play.
Don't cry about it.
And since you never ask your cohorts to prove their claims, your
request to me are basically ignored.
>
> Remember how the law goes? I mean, even though you've only
> been on the wrong side of it, you should have learnt SOMETHING.
You need to preach that to your cohorts who sit in this newsgroup and
lie about me on a daily basis.
But you'll never question them because the philosphy you idiots share
is "loyalty before honesty".
>
>
>
> > Did you misuse
> >> DoC computers again?
>
> > I've never misused them in the first place.
>
> Oh, yes, you have.
Oh? And I suppose you have evidence? Have you spoken with a
Department Tech?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Pay for a background investigation, like you did
> >> Patrick?
>
> > Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
>
> >> And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
>
> > Yes, you are a pot head.
>
> >> What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
> >> that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
>
> > Prove it.
>
> >> implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
>
> No, actually. It isn't. Just like stating that you are,
> undoubtedly and professionally an idiot isn't. I say
> professionally because you've obviously progressed far
> beyond amateur idiocy.
>
>
>
> > Prove you don't have a criminal record.
>
> Prove you don't, prat.
>
> --
> Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because
> if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more
> than that of blindfolded fear.
> - Thomas Jefferson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
IAAH
Don't forget Harleyman - who appeared as a slobbering
sycophant, fellating Bobby's every word from the same IP
address....
Ospr...@hotmail.com
IAAH,
You know how to read ISP Hosting numbers right?
She claims that I am Peter, which obviously I'm not.
I asked her for proof, she told me I had to prove it wasn't me.
Weren't you the one just preaching about proving claims just a while
ago.
Let me guess, you're going to ignore Elizabeths claims, right? You
wouldn't dare question her, would you?
Loyalty before honesty, eh?
IAAH
Oh noes! Bobby the Lying Princess won't talk to me!
Oh, how will I ever get through the day!
>
>
>> Remember how the law goes? I mean, even though you've only
>> been on the wrong side of it, you should have learnt SOMETHING.
>
> You need to preach that to your cohorts who sit in this newsgroup and
> lie about me on a daily basis.
> But you'll never question them because the philosphy you idiots share
> is "loyalty before honesty".
So far nothing they've said is out of the bounds of
plausibility and you have yet to show that they could be
wrong. So...suck it.
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Did you misuse
>>>> DoC computers again?
>>> I've never misused them in the first place.
>> Oh, yes, you have.
>
> Oh? And I suppose you have evidence? Have you spoken with a
> Department Tech?
>
I have seen the forged posts you sent out. Boy, I bet you
wish you hadn't done that, dingus.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Pay for a background investigation, like you did
>>>> Patrick?
>>> Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
>>>> And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
>>> Yes, you are a pot head.
>>>> What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
>>>> that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
>>> Prove it.
>>>> implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
>> No, actually. It isn't. Just like stating that you are,
>> undoubtedly and professionally an idiot isn't. I say
>> professionally because you've obviously progressed far
>> beyond amateur idiocy.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Prove you don't have a criminal record.
>> Prove you don't, prat.
>>
Oh, no proof. By your game, that means you have one.
IAAH
Google groups doesn't post IP addresses except for a bogus
localhost, you idiot.
Look, don't even try - I've spent part of the last year
getting a CCNA and I can say that without a doubt I know
more than you ever will about this.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
So you don't believe in evidence. When they claim I've been fired, you
believe it. When they claim I've been banned from computers, you
believe it.
Keep it up moron, like I said, with you it's always loyalty before
honesty.
You'll never question another liberal or pro-choicer, you can't.
>
>
>
> >>> Did you misuse
> >>>> DoC computers again?
> >>> I've never misused them in the first place.
> >> Oh, yes, you have.
>
> > Oh? And I suppose you have evidence? Have you spoken with a
> > Department Tech?
>
> I have seen the forged posts you sent out. Boy, I bet you
> wish you hadn't done that, dingus.
Once again, I'm asking you. Have you any evidence? Have you spoken to
anyone in any Department that would verify your claim?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> Pay for a background investigation, like you did
> >>>> Patrick?
> >>> Nope, don't worry about how I found it out. I just did..:o)
> >>>> And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
> >>> Yes, you are a pot head.
> >>>> What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
> >>>> that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
> >>> Prove it.
> >>>> implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
> >> No, actually. It isn't. Just like stating that you are,
> >> undoubtedly and professionally an idiot isn't. I say
> >> professionally because you've obviously progressed far
> >> beyond amateur idiocy.
>
> >>> Prove you don't have a criminal record.
> >> Prove you don't, prat.
>
> Oh, no proof. By your game, that means you have one.
Nope, we are playing by Elizabeths game. After all she said before
since this is usenet it's alright to make up accusations.
>
> --
> Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because
> if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more
> than that of blindfolded fear.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Moron,
Look at Peters posting host.
Look at mine.
We are hundreds of miles apart you idiot.
Obviouisly you don't know as much as you like to pretend.
So, do you swallow her claim and think I'm the same person as pnyikos?
Let the dancing begin.
IAAH
Forged posts, bucko. That's ancient history now, and you
were caught.
IAAH
Do you really think there's a way to tell where Comcast is
siting an IP?
Really?
Ever heard of VNC, by the way? Seriously, this is really
trivial. If I wanted, I could appear to be posting from
Kuala Lumpur.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
You've lied since day one, you're lying again, and you will lie
tomorrow.
I noticed you ducked my questions, thus proving that you can't support
your claim with evidence.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
So you're saying I'm the same person as pnyikos, is that correct?
james g. keegan jr.
IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
> elizabeth wrote:
[...]
> > Poor Oopsey, he seems to feel that even though he's been busted more
> > than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
> > time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
> > PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
> > fauxNy and Oopsey are . . well, that's how he outed himself as
> > Bystander and ObKY before.
>
> Don't forget Harleyman - who appeared as a slobbering
> sycophant, fellating Bobby's every word from the same IP
> address....
poor bobby is so dumb tat he rarely, if ever, realizes how he exposes
his lies and malice.
--
"Note: NOWHERE...and I'll repeat..NOWHERE do you see me mentioning the New York Times. " --scumbag heishman posting as Ospre...@hotmail.com in news:9a845215-1896-47e0-acb9-fca427f2c...@x38g2000yqj.googlegroups.com
IAAH
Why would you lie about what I'm saying?
(Notice that this is how YOU respond when the same question
is asked).
IAAH
Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
I asked you a question, are you afraid to answer it? Is it that
loyalty before honesty policy you have?
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Do you have evidence?
You're lying
The Chief Instigator
>On Jun 8, 2:05�pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 8, 4:11�pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > On Jun 8, 1:02�pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:> On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> > nip
>>
>> > > > Better still, in the next
>> > > > lifetime they might volunteer to be born with Down's Syndrome and experience
>> > > > it all from beginning to end.
>>
>> > > If it's a choice between that and being aborted over a week into the
>> > > third trimester, it's not contest where I am concerned.
>>
>> > May you get your choice and be so reborn!
>Oopsey, Oopsey, Oopsey, you really are out of control again.
>> Are you still smoking the weed?
>>
>> I know more than you want me to know, you nut case.
>OK, present what you know and where you obtained it. Did you misuse
>DoC computers again? Pay for a background investigation, like you did
>Patrick?
Look at all the good it did him, in my case.
>And I make no secret of the fact I am a medical marijuana patient.
>What's your point? That I smoke dope, and you are one? Already knew
>that ... BTW, since I've never gotten so much as a traffic ticket,
>implying that I have a criminal record is technically LIBEL ...
DelDoC's not doing themselves any favors by keeping him on the payroll, let
alone the taxpayers who are still having to contribute to his wages.
--
Patrick L. "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (pat...@io.com) Houston, Texas
www.io.com/~patrick/aeros.php (TCI's 2008-09 Houston Aeros) AA#2273
LAST GAME: Manitoba 3, Houston 1 (May 25: Moose advance, 4-2)
NEXT GAME: The 2009-10 opener in October, TBA
IAAH
Wow, is that the latest attempt at derailing away from your
own behaviour?
Is that the best you can do? It's pretty poor. But it is
good to see that it's as easy as ever to get you all wound
up in your own failures.
IAAH
I know for a fact it was already pointed out to you, more
than once. This repeated demand for evidence already
presented is just another facet of that pathology of yours;
the one that sublimates inability to admit deeds with
regression to demands already met.
I've decided to simply ignore demands that you and I know
were already satisfied. You know you forged posts and lied
about it later - man up and stop being such a baby.
The Chief Instigator
So, you're upset because she used your tactics upon you? Thanks for
confirming your stupidity and dishonesty, Blobby.
junegill
"pnyikos" <nyi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:99a812dd-1b01-48eb...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> was done for no reason other than that her son (as she refers to him)
> http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
So you don't think that Down's Syndrome is a good reason to abort? What do
you know about caring for a mentally handicapped child? You happen to know
someone who is doing a good job with one? Great. You should try it for
yourself before you tell others what they should endure. Read the following
for the merest inkling of what it's like and then tell me that you'd
volunteer to do it:
http://uk.geocities.com/june...@btopenworld.com/webpages/autism/autism.html
Down's Syndrome is not the same as severe autism, but certain things hold
true for both: you can never hold a meaningful conversation with your child,
although you claim to have done so (would you choose the kind of
conversation you had to be just about the only kind on a daily basis?), they
will never (or extremely rarely) marry and have a family of their own, and
they will need to be cared for in a physical sense their whole lives, never
becoming independent. Not only do they not lead normal lives, neither do
their parents and siblings. I could go on at length, but I'll just say one
more thing: the abortion of a severely disabled or mentally handicapped
foetus paves the way for other children to be born - my husband and I both
wanted to have more children, but it was out of the question ... they're the
ones that I mourn.
[snip]
--
June G
# 364
http://uk.geocities.com/june...@btopenworld.com/webpages/index.html.html
james g. keegan jr.
IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
what do you mean, "Why?" that's what osprey does. he lies.
elizabeth
> In article <fYWdnZeLE96zWbDXnZ2dnUVZ_gNi4...@giganews.com>,
>
> apprently forgetting he had previously written:
> "New York Times has all ready sent me a response stating you have been warned." -- prison clerk heishman lying as "Osprey" <noneedtok...@mail.com> innews:2rCdnZNy7LA...@comcast.com
What's really amusing is how he accuses me of stalking him, and yet,
he's the one who claims to be seeking out all sorts of information
about me . .. who's stalking who? Classic Oopsey, projection as a
lifestyle. He may well be that rarest of beings, one without a single
redeeming characteristic.
Ray Fischer
>On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
>> > trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY,
>>
>> abortion had occurred in late 2001. Why didn't the Kansas authorities
>> prosecute?
>
>Obviously, they couldn't start until they got wind of it, and it's a
>pretty safe bet that they didn't get wind of it until after May 31,
>2005. Despite what a fanatical ally of yours said, Tiller was never
The usual smears from the usual smear-monger.
>> > (as she refers to him) was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down
>> > Syndrome
>> >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
>>
>> And? Caring for children with Down's Syndrome can strain family
>> resources to the breaking point - mental and emotional as well as
>> financial.
>
>Or not. See the case of Mary Ellen Rudin, who together with her
Down's syndrome covers a range of symptoms, which may include severe
disability.
You, being a self-righteous and hypocritical asshole first lied abotu
the case, claiming that the fetus was healthy, and are now trying to
minimize your lie by pretending that all Down's syndrome cases are
minor.
You're a typical pro-liar asshole spewing filth.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>I am posting the paragraphs immediately preceding the ones I quoted in
>my first post, followed by the copy of the ones I did post, all from
>an article in the Los Angeles Times:
Because you're such an arrogant dumbshit that you think that people
will overlook your lie if you post enough evidence showing that you're
a liar.
>>http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
[...]
>I find it very sad that Plazio apparently did not speak to the parents
How many have YOU adopted, hypocrite?
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
>> > lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
>> > Syndrome.
>>
>> That is a lie. There are no long waiting lists for children with
>> Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
>> care gulags.
>
>I said babies, not children, you bait-and-switch artist.
Where's your evidence, pro-liar?
>I suspect that is what your staunch ally Spartakus had in mind, too,
I know you're a liar. There aren't "long waiting lists" of women
wanting to adopt babies with Down's syndrome. That's just another
example of you getting confused with the difference between what you
think should be reality and what is reality.
>when he did his Lyman-clone song-and-dance in response to the same
Smearing other people doesn't make you less of a lying sleazebag.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>On Jun 8, 3:06 pm, "Adam A. Wanderer" <m...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> news:99a812dd-1b01-48eb...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...> According to the following article
>in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
>> > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
>> > was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down Syndrome.
>> >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
>>
>> Perhaps a few members of the "pro-life" community, who also oppose research
>> to stop or cure many of these defects,
>
>...because the result is amniocentesis followed by abortion.
Because you pro-liars love to see people suffer.
> There
>are far fewer Down Syndrome babies born since these search-and-destroy
>missions began in earnest.
There are fewer doctors doing abortions since your search-and-destroy
missions ended up with the murders of doctors.
> >would like to raise a kid with Down's
>> Syndrome, and then tell us what it was like.
>
>I'll try and find out what the latest stats are on the adoption scene.
LOL! Apparently you spew bullshit first and then try to find evidence
later.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>Come on! Be reasonable! I'm a far right conservative and I agree
>with this lady 100%. That baby should be aborted (and was). It's so
>easy for you to sound 'holier-than-though' in casting judgement on her
>since you aren't the one who has to raise a child with downs
>syndrome. It's also cruel to bring such a child into this world.
>
>I'm against abortion when it's done out of convenience because the
>mother feels she's not in the mood to raise a child (when the child is
>normal).
So you're not a conservative at all. You're a big-government control
freak.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
elizabeth
> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >On Jun 8, 2:16 pm, Spartakus <sparta...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >> > According to the following article in the Los Angeles Times, a woman
> >> > with no health problems had an abortion over a week into the third
> >> > trimester at Tiller's clinic, apparently ILLEGALLY,
>
> >> Apparently NOT illegally. The article is dated May 31, 2005 and the
> >> abortion had occurred in late 2001. Why didn't the Kansas authorities
> >> prosecute?
>
> >Obviously, they couldn't start until they got wind of it, and it's a
> >pretty safe bet that they didn't get wind of it until after May 31,
> >2005. Despite what a fanatical ally of yours said, Tiller was never
>
> The usual smears from the usual smear-monger.
>
> >> > (as she refers to him) was revealed by amniocentesis to have Down
> >> > Syndrome
> >> >http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
>
> >> And? Caring for children with Down's Syndrome can strain family
> >> resources to the breaking point - mental and emotional as well as
> >> financial.
>
> >Or not. See the case of Mary Ellen Rudin, who together with her
The absolute idiocy of the so-called professor keeps expanding.
> Down's syndrome covers a range of symptoms, which may include severe
> disability.
No shit, often causing the need for continued, expensive care, like
heart surgery. I have never understood the mentality of people who
would choose to bring a child into the world, knowing that the child
will have a short miserable life. I can't imagine how anyone would do
that, modern medicine may be a great thing, but you can't completely
ignore how it does have its "down side," the more I know about it, and
the older I get, the more terrified I am of being forced to be
subjected to medical intervention, can't even try to imagine what the
terror must be like for someone unable to understand why and what is
going on. Thank god for the xian scientists . .. if I'm ever forced
to deal with a critical emergency, I can convert on the spot. Maybe
some folks don't mind needles in the arm, no ability to wipe their own
ass, being dependant on the kindness of others, but it's just not for
me. I couldn't force anyone I loved to go through that hell.
Plus, you really have to consider the needs of "the village" and since
we are already way overpopulated and can't take care of those here
now, it's just not right to expect the village to pay your tab if you
choose to breed and knowingly bring into existance children who will
never be "normal" and require that much care. Take OctoMom, virtually
all of her bills for procreating will be paid by the taxpayers of
California, and her children are all developmentally disabled.
Those children know they ain't right on some level. I remember a boy
in my grade school, he was some kind of disabled, we didn't have all
the categories back then, the kids used to torment that boy so
bad . .. I always felt terrible and didn't have the guts to tell
those assholes to shut the fuck up. Maybe that's where my hatred for
bullies began. I wasn't bullied, and didn't bother bullying, but I
was keenly aware of it.
I followed some of the links posted in here where family members tell
their stories of what hardships they endured, and that's why when
fucking jerkoffs like fauxNy here blithely explain that those
"special" children are no big deal for the families ... well, one
hopes karma strikes quickly.
> You, being a self-righteous and hypocritical asshole first lied abotu
> the case, claiming that the fetus was healthy, and are now trying to
> minimize your lie by pretending that all Down's syndrome cases are
> minor.
>
> You're a typical pro-liar asshole spewing filth.
I find it objectionable that fauxNy would bring in the personal,
family matters of a third party. I'm not sure they would appreciate
their privacy being invaded by that fatuous fuckwad using their
experience to prove something.
> --
> Ray Fischer
> rfisc...@sonic.net
elizabeth
> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> >> > lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> >> > Syndrome.
Now, this is another thing that pisses me off about the fauxNys of the
world.
> >> That is a lie. There are no long waiting lists for children with
> >> Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
> >> care gulags.
>
> >I said babies, not children, you bait-and-switch artist.
fauxNy here explains that because most children in foster care were
"damaged" by their breeders they didn't count, because no one wants a
child that requires that much work. Grrr. So, only infants
"deserve" a loving family, and those kids whose breeders were stupid
enough to breed and not immediately give up an adoptable infant (and
let's be clear, I don't think that most of these breeders should be
allowed to take a child home from the hospital. If you can't qualify
as an adoptive parent or a foster parent, why should "society" have to
fund your choice to breed? If you have no way to support yourself,
why on earth should you be subsidized to do so? If we ended welfare
as an entitlement to breeders, there would be no more foster children,
crime would be reduced in a generation. Etc), that child then should
rot in some nasty "group home" until being tossed on the streets at
age 18? Talk about adding insult to injury .. .
> Where's your evidence, pro-liar?
He has none, when has he ever?
> >I suspect that is what your staunch ally Spartakus had in mind, too,
>
> I know you're a liar. There aren't "long waiting lists" of women
> wanting to adopt babies with Down's syndrome. That's just another
> example of you getting confused with the difference between what you
> think should be reality and what is reality.
Very good way of putting it.
> >when he did his Lyman-clone song-and-dance in response to the same
>
> Smearing other people doesn't make you less of a lying sleazebag.
>
> --
> Ray Fischer
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Yes, others have lied just like you are lying now.
I'm used to you morons making up all of these accusations. I've got
tons of them saved on file so when the day comes and honest people
start chatting with you, I can let them know quickly just how
dishonest you are.
more
> than once. This repeated demand for evidence already
> presented is just another facet of that pathology of yours;
> the one that sublimates inability to admit deeds with
> regression to demands already met.
>
> I've decided to simply ignore ...
reality
Get it right.
IAAH
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/64a14d4098575d3c?dmode=source
Okay. There's only one prime example of you forging messages
from others.
Have a nice day, dingus. I know I will.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
>
> Okay. There's only one prime example of you forging messages
> from others.
>
> Have a nice day, dingus. I know I will.
Nope, not even close. That's not me moron.
You lied again.
IAAH
The IP matches in the same thread from a half-hour earlier,
as do all the client headers. It's you.
You're just going to lie about it, but it's really no use.
And the funny part is that Adam told you to go with
something more inventive and that is the best you could do!
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Wrong Jethro, that's not me. You're lying and probably forging
yourself.
According to you, just yesterday, IP's are not identifiers.
Remember, when I asked you to look at the IP's from Peter and
myself?
But then again, you lie all of the time, just like when you lied and
claimed I was a felon.
But you don't believe in supporting any of your claims.
IAAH
No Dingus, it's you. It's good to see you getting desperate
about it, though. A nice amusement to have with my coffee.
Let's see you keep it up, okay? It's like having my very own
retarded monkey to do dances for me.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
You like to lie, don't ya?
Why? Are you that much of a loser?
IAAH
Dance, monkey! This confirmation (not that confirmation from
Dingus the Retarded Dancing Monkey was needed, mind you) is
delicious.
Gwen
> On Jun 8, 9:22 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > On Jun 8, 1:08 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Jun 8, 3:52 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > >>> On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> > >>>>> lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> > >>>>> Syndrome.
> > >>>> Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
> > >>>> care gulags.
> > >>> through this before.
You're obviously not... because even as dumb the fake Peter is, you
still can't emulate it.
Gwen
> On Jun 8, 9:45 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > >>> Weren't you the one just preaching about proving claims just a while
> > >>> ago.
> > >>> Let me guess, you're going to ignore Elizabeths claims, right? You
> > >>> wouldn't dare question her, would you?
> > >>> Loyalty before honesty, eh?
> > >> Google groups doesn't post IP addresses except for a bogus
> > >> localhost, you idiot.
>
> > > Moron,
>
> > > Look at Peters posting host.
> > > Look at mine.
>
> > > We are hundreds of miles apart you idiot.
>
> > Do you really think there's a way to tell where Comcast is
> > siting an IP?
>
> > Really?
>
> > Ever heard of VNC, by the way? Seriously, this is really
> > trivial. If I wanted, I could appear to be posting from
> > Kuala Lumpur.
>
> So you're saying I'm the same person as pnyikos, is that correct?
This is why you can't imitate the imposter; you're too fucking stupid.
Gwen
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
I answered it, pussy ex-prison clerk.
Gwen
> So you don't believe in evidence. When they claim I've been fired, you
> believe it. When they claim I've been banned from computers, you
> believe it.
> Keep it up moron, like I said, with you it's always loyalty before
> honesty.
I believe you got yourself in the mess in which are living, at the
present.
Ray Fischer
It's always somebody else's fault with you, isn't it? You have no
ability to actually take responsibility for your own screwups.
>I'm used to you morons making up all of these accusations.
And proving them.
> I've got
>tons of them saved on file
And you keep embarrasing yourself by posting them and proving that the
liar is, in fact, you.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
pnyikos
> Come on! Be reasonable! I'm a far right conservative and I agree
> with this lady 100%.
I don't think there is any correlation between being far right
conservative and being reasonable--or if there is, it's negative.
> That baby should be aborted (and was). It's so
> easy for you to sound 'holier-than-though' in casting judgement on her
> since you aren't the one who has to raise a child with downs
> syndrome. It's also cruel to bring such a child into this world.
Do you consider yourself to be a Christian? I hope not. It is most
un-Christian to tempt God by killing a child in the womb and expecting
God to make everything right for the child in the hereafter.
> I'm against abortion when it's done out of convenience because the
> mother feels she's not in the mood to raise a child (when the child is
> normal).
>
> If you want proof I'm on the far right, read my blog:http://immigration-globalization.blogspot.com/
Not just far right, but anti-semitic and probably racist as well.
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> Down's syndrome covers a range of symptoms, which may include severe
> disability.
Had there been any sign of severe disability in the Plazio's son, you
can bet your bottom dollar that it would have been mentioned in the
article by Stephanie Simon, a master of abortion-rights propaganda:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/dave-pierre/2007/09/18/yet-another-slanted-abortion-story-lat
The ONLY reason given was distress over the two alternatives, raising
her son or giving him up for adoption:
http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
Would that distress have exempted her or Tiller from your stated
policy, which you said has NOT changed since you posted the following
in 1992?
====begin repost
Newsgroups: talk.abortion
Path: rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!wupost!
csus.edu!netcom.com!ray
From: r...@netcom.com (Ray Fischer)
Subject: Re: Late-term abortion
Message-ID: <1992Nov17....@netcom.com>
Organization: Netcom, San Jose, California
References: <_=v1...@rpi.edu> <1992Nov15....@netcom.com>
<1992Nov16....@advtech.uswest.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1992 05:21:21 GMT
Lines: 29
ste...@advtech.uswest.com ( Steve Novak) writes ...
>I wouldn't mind hearing what restrictions you'd support, and what penalties
>for doctors/patients you'd like to see enacted.
Many people have made compelling arguments against banning late-term
abortions, and so I'm not going to propose any such thing. However,
neither do I see as justifiable any abortion which deliberately kills
a late term and viable fetus when alternatives exist.
What I would like to see are laws that allow a woman to terminate a
pregnancy at any time, but requires that an attempt be made to save
the life of the fetus when practical and when it does not place the
mother at great additional risk. Granted, this may not always be
possible, but when it is, it should be required.
What punishment? I'd consider a deliberate killing of a fetus to be
manslaughter, with the penalties appropriate to that crime. And yes,
that does mean throwing the would-be mother in jail should she be so
convicted. While putting mothers in jail sounds nasty, I don't think
that women should be treated like children just because they are
pregnant. I expect _equal_ justice under the law.
Of course this is only a sketch and there there are many exceptions
and caveats; should anyone feel like picking nits, please consider the
practicality of the intent first.
--
Ray Fischer "Convictions are more dangerous enemies
of truth
r...@netcom.com than lies." -- Friedrich Nietszsche
=====end repost
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >I am posting the paragraphs immediately preceding the ones I quoted in
> >my first post, followed by the copy of the ones I did post, all from
> >an article in the Los Angeles Times:
>
>
> >>http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
> [...]
> >I find it very sad that Plazio apparently did not speak to the parents
>
> How many have YOU adopted, hypocrite?
Depriving a responsible woman who is desperate for a baby to adopt,
by adopting myself when I have four wonderful daughters, is what would
be really hypocritical.
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> On Jun 8, 9:49 pm, rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>
> > pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> > >On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >> > One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> > >> > lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> > >> > Syndrome.
> > >> That is a lie. There are no long waiting lists for children with
> > >> Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
> > >> care gulags.
>
> > >I said babies, not children, you bait-and-switch artist.
>
> fauxNy here explains that because most children in foster care were
> "damaged" by their breeders they didn't count, because no one wants a
> child that requires that much work. Grrr. So, only infants
> "deserve" a loving family, and those kids whose breeders were stupid
> enough to breed and not immediately give up an adoptable infant (
As usual, you jump to conclusions on the basis of laughably meager
evidence. In the first place, I think every child on this planet
deserves a loving family, but cold realities stand in the way.
Secondly, you are guilty of a dirty debating trick I call the Black
and White Meltdown, seeing no alternative in what I say between much
older children being impossible to adopt ,and being sought after.
It's a difficult thing that few couples are capable of, but just the
other day I saw the following heartwarming exception to the rule--and
note, even this mother had her doubts at one point about being able to
stay the course:
http://catholicexchange.com/2009/01/26/115157/
And don't forget, we are arguing about the disposition of ONE baby,
the son of the woman who had the third trimestrer abortion, and you
are the one who dragged in foster care, as if that were somehow
relevant.
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 9:22 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
> >> elizabeth wrote:
> >>> Poor Oopsey, he seems to feel that even though he's been busted more
> >>> than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
> >>> time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
> >>> PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
> >>> fauxNy and Oopsey are
Howdy, "IAAH." I don't think our paths have ever crossed before, so I
assume you don't quite know what to make of the foregoing bizarre
claims of "ellizabeth," but I think you've noticed already on this
thread that Osprey's style and my style are very different, and if
you've read a good sample of my 1992-1997 posts you will see that they
bear a much closer resemblance to my present posts than either sample
does to Osprey's.
> >>> . . well, that's how he outed himself as
> >>> Bystander and ObKY before.
> >> Don't forget Harleyman - who appeared as a slobbering
> >> sycophant, fellating Bobby's every word from the same IP
> >> address....
What do you mean by IP address? I am familiar with the NNTP Posting
host numbers, but I can't make head or tail of them.
Perhaps you know that ObKY was said by Osprey to be his brother in
law, visiting them and using his computer. Does any of this not ring
true?
I am not familiar with the other two. Where's the evidence that they
are sock puppets of Osprey?
And what about this "Adam M." post to which you've posted a link?
Where's the evidence that it was posted by Osprey?
> > IAAH,
> > You know how to read ISP Hosting numbers right?
> > She claims that I am Peter, which obviously I'm not.
> > I asked her for proof, she told me I had to prove it wasn't me.
> > Weren't you the one just preaching about proving claims just a while
> > ago.
>
> > Let me guess, you're going to ignore Elizabeths claims, right? You
> > wouldn't dare question her, would you?
>
> > Loyalty before honesty, eh?
>
> Google groups doesn't post IP addresses except for a bogus
> localhost, you idiot.
What about that NNTP posting host?
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> >> Forged posts, bucko. That's ancient history now, and you
> >> were caught.
>
> > Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
>
> Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
Maybe for him, but not for me. I haven't seen any of the evidence
other than what I've already told you about in my preceding post.
I'm a little ticked off at both you and Osprey for the fruitless back-
and-forth that no casual reader could be expected to follow. You've
strung each other out through a lengthy chain of posts and I wish one
of you would stop playing with the cards held so close to the chest.
Peter Nyikos
pnyikos
> On Jun 8, 10:09 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
>
> > Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
>
> Do you have evidence?
> You're lying
Like I said to IAAH, I'm a little ticked off at both of you for all
the fruitless back and forth. Why don't you explain to us all what
he's driving at with that "Adam M." post-, why he thinks it came from
your machine-or is this the first time you've ever seen him claim that
it is supposed to have come from there?
One thing you CAN do is steer us to a thread where "elizabeth" playied
the "prove you aren't" game to the hilt--and see what the response
from IAAH will be.
Peter Nyikos
IAAH
Well, talk to Dingus about that - it's his way. This is what
he does when he feels the need to deny his own actions. He
decided once upon a time to try posting as other people,
juvenile shit like "I am a racist."
As for the other, I know for a fact that it's easy to post
from more than one IP address to appear as two people, but
much harder for two to post from one without being found out.
IAAH
These are the standards that Bobby has set for HIMSELF, and
he is being held to them. Whenever he accuses people of
something, he immediately falls back on saying that the
accused must prove that he is wrong.
So that's the way he has to play it from now on too.
pnyikos
> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On Jun 9, 9:16 am, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
> >> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Jun 9, 9:06 am, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
>>>>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/64a14d4098575d3c?
dmod...
> >>>> Okay. There's only one prime example of you forging messages
> >>>> from others.
> >>>> Have a nice day, dingus. I know I will.
You were off to a good start, IAAH, but now you've started to run
away
from something you said earlier, and now I am more ticked off at you
than I am at Osprey. That could easily change, of course.
> >>> Nope, not even close. That's not me moron.
> >>> You lied again.
> >> The IP matches in the same thread from a half-hour earlier,
> >> as do all the client headers. It's you.
> > Wrong Jethro, that's not me. You're lying and probably forging
> > yourself.
============== begin repost of text snipped by IAAH
According to you, just yesterday, IP's are not identifiers.
Remember, when I asked you to look at the IP's from Peter and
myself?
================= end of repost of Osprey's words
> No Dingus, it's you. It's good to see you getting desperate
> about it, though. A nice amusement to have with my coffee.
So if it isn't IP addresses, what IS the telltale evidence?
> Let's see you keep it up, okay? It's like having my very own
> retarded monkey to do dances for me.
I'm NOT having fun watch you do an evasion-and-sneering-bravado song
and
dance. I have always valued truth above scoring debating points.
Peter Nyikos
IAAH
> On Jun 9, 9:32 am, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
> > Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > > On Jun 9, 9:16 am, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
> > >> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > >>> On Jun 9, 9:06 am, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
> >
> >>>>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.abortion/msg/64a14d4098575d3c?
> dmod...
> > >>>> Okay. There's only one prime example of you forging messages
> > >>>> from others.
> > >>>> Have a nice day, dingus. I know I will.
>
> You were off to a good start, IAAH, but now you've started to run
> away
> from something you said earlier, and now I am more ticked off at you
> than I am at Osprey. That could easily change, of course.
Oh, well.
>
> > >>> Nope, not even close. That's not me moron.
> > >>> You lied again.
>
> > >> The IP matches in the same thread from a half-hour earlier,
> > >> as do all the client headers. It's you.
>
> > > Wrong Jethro, that's not me. You're lying and probably forging
> > > yourself.
>
> ============== begin repost of text snipped by IAAH
>
> According to you, just yesterday, IP's are not identifiers.
> Remember, when I asked you to look at the IP's from Peter and
> myself?
> ================= end of repost of Osprey's words
>
> > No Dingus, it's you. It's good to see you getting desperate
> > about it, though. A nice amusement to have with my coffee.
>
> So if it isn't IP addresses, what IS the telltale evidence?
Because posting from two different IPs is easy. Claiming
that a post from an IP that was used by him both half an
hour earlier and later than the forged post is NOT his, is
almost certainly a lie. There is not a reasonable
explanation for how that happened except for the simplest -
he posted those forgeries.
That single thread I linked to has at least two posts from
him that he forged under other poster's names.
He will lie about it when confronted.
>
> > Let's see you keep it up, okay? It's like having my very own
> > retarded monkey to do dances for me.
>
> I'm NOT having fun watch you do an evasion-and-sneering-bravado song
> and
> dance. I have always valued truth above scoring debating points.
If true, that means that you're almost certainly NOT Osprey.
>
> Peter Nyikos
Ospr...@hotmail.com
> pnyikos wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 10:09 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
> >> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >>> On Jun 8, 9:40 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
> >>>> Forged posts, bucko. That's ancient history now, and you
> >>>> were caught.
> >>> Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
> >> Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
>
> > Maybe for him, but not for me. I haven't seen any of the evidence
> > other than what I've already told you about in my preceding post.
>
> > I'm a little ticked off at both you and Osprey for the fruitless back-
> > and-forth that no casual reader could be expected to follow. You've
> > strung each other out through a lengthy chain of posts and I wish one
> > of you would stop playing with the cards held so close to the chest.
>
> > Peter Nyikos
>
> Well, talk to Dingus about that - it's his way. This is what
> he does when he feels the need to deny his own actions. He
> decided once upon a time to try posting as other people,
> juvenile shit like "I am a racist."
Who said you are racist?
According to that posting, that was posted to someone named Adam H.
and I strongly recall you stating over and over, when I first
suspected you were Adam H., that you were not Adam H.
Now you're saying....you are?
Ospr...@hotmail.com
> pnyikos wrote:
> > On Jun 8, 10:22 pm, Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >> On Jun 8, 10:09 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
> >>> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >>>> Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
> >>> Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
> >> Do you have evidence?
> >> You're lying
>
> > Like I said to IAAH, I'm a little ticked off at both of you for all
> > the fruitless back and forth. Why don't you explain to us all what
> > he's driving at with that "Adam M." post-, why he thinks it came from
> > your machine-or is this the first time you've ever seen him claim that
> > it is supposed to have come from there?
>
> > One thing you CAN do is steer us to a thread where "elizabeth" playied
> > the "prove you aren't" game to the hilt--and see what the response
> > from IAAH will be.
>
> > Peter Nyikos
>
> These are the standards that Bobby has set for HIMSELF, and
> he is being held to them. Whenever he accuses people of
> something, he immediately falls back on saying that the
> accused must prove that he is wrong.
Nope, that's Elizabeth's standard and I'm playing it back. If you
don't like those rules, go talk to the one you're trying to buddy up
with right now. Ask her why she doesn't prove her claims true and ask
her when she is asked too, why she insist that the accused prove she
is wrong?
Oh wait...loyalty before honesty, right?
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Prove that a post was used by the same person with in a half hour.
Ever hear of public libraries and places like that that have internet
access.
It's EASY for two people, three, or more to post from the same exact
IP within a half hour.
There is not a reasonable
> explanation for how that happened except for the simplest -
> he posted those forgeries.
>
> That single thread I linked to has at least two posts from
> him that he forged under other poster's names.
But it's false, I didn't do that.
> He will lie about it when confronted.
I'm not lying. Speaking of lying, why don't you explain why you falsly
accuse people of being felons and when you are confronted to post
proof you run away.
>
>
>
> > > Let's see you keep it up, okay? It's like having my very own
> > > retarded monkey to do dances for me.
>
> > I'm NOT having fun watch you do an evasion-and-sneering-bravado song
> > and
> > dance. I have always valued truth above scoring debating points.
>
> If true, that means that you're almost certainly NOT Osprey.
>
>
>
> > Peter Nyikos
>
> --
> Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because
> if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more
> than that of blindfolded fear.
> - Thomas Jefferson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
pawa...@yahoo.com
> On Jun 8, 9:22 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > elizabeth wrote:
> > >> On Jun 8, 3:52 pm, pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > >>> On Jun 8, 2:57 pm, elizabeth <efran...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> One other thing Plazio may not have realized: there are long waiting
> > >>>>> lists for women who very much want to adopt babies with Down
> > >>>>> Syndrome.
> > >>>> That is a lie. There are no long waiting lists for children with
> > >>>> Down's Syndrome. Hell, even normal children end up dumped in foster
> > >>>> care gulags.
> > > than once for forgeries, that we have to prove he's forging "this
> > > time" and it's quite evident, if you read the posts of the original
> > > PiNhead from the 1990s, and note how similar in content and style
> > > Bystander and ObKY before.
>
> > Don't forget Harleyman - who appeared as a slobbering
> > sycophant, fellating Bobby's every word from the same IP
> > address....
>
> You know how to read ISP Hosting numbers right?
LOL!!! You aren't really going to go there, are you?
You were the one who claimed that a posting couldn't have come from
you simply because the server was in another country. That statement
of yours truely demonstrates that you haven't a clue about IP
addresses.
BTW, people who actually understand IP addresses call them by their
proper name - people who don't call them things like "ISP hosting
numbers".
<snip>
Ray Fischer
>> Down's syndrome covers a range of symptoms, which may include severe
>> disability.
>
>Had there been any sign of severe disability in the Plazio's son, you
You've already been caught lying your ass off about this case, asshole.
Now you expect other people to dispove your bullshit?
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>> fauxNy here explains that because most children in foster care were
>> "damaged" by their breeders they didn't count, because no one wants a
>> child that requires that much work. Grrr. So, only infants
>> "deserve" a loving family, and those kids whose breeders were stupid
>> enough to breed and not immediately give up an adoptable infant (
>
>As usual, you jump to conclusions on the basis of laughably meager
>evidence.
Like claiming that a fetus with Down's syndrome is "healthy"?
> In the first place, I think every child on this planet
>deserves a loving family, but cold realities stand in the way.
The rationalization of the pro-liar hypocrite.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
> rfisc...@sonic.net (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>> pnyikos <nyik...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >I am posting the paragraphs immediately preceding the ones I quoted in
>> >my first post, followed by the copy of the ones I did post, all from
>> >an article in the Los Angeles Times:
>>
>[...]
>>
>> >>http://articles.latimes.com/2005/may/31/nation/na-abortion31?pg=1
>> [...]
>> >I find it very sad that Plazio apparently did not speak to the parents
>>
>> How many have YOU adopted, hypocrite?
>
>Depriving a responsible woman who is desperate for a baby to adopt,
We'll take that as a "none". All you offer are excuses.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>On Jun 9, 4:43�pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>> pnyikos wrote:
>> > One thing you CAN do is steer us to a thread where "elizabeth" playied
>> > the "prove you aren't" game to the hilt--and see what the response
>> > from IAAH will be.
>>
>> he is being held to them. Whenever he accuses people of
>> something, he immediately falls back on saying that the
>> accused must prove that he is wrong.
>
>Nope, that's Elizabeth's standard and I'm playing it back.
Fuck you, I don't have to prove anything to you.
Asshole heishman in <8139f07d-582c-4b46...@k8g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
Ray Fischer
>On Jun 8, 10:09 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> > On Jun 8, 9:40 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>
>> >> Forged posts, bucko. That's ancient history now, and you
>> >> were caught.
>>
>> > Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
>>
>> Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
>
>Maybe for him, but not for me.
You lied. The evidence is unambiguous.
--
Ray Fischer
rfis...@sonic.net
IAAH
> On Jun 9, 4:41 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>> pnyikos wrote:
>>> On Jun 8, 10:09 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>>>> Ospre...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 8, 9:40 pm, IAAH <n...@email.exist> wrote:
>>>>>> Forged posts, bucko. That's ancient history now, and you
>>>>>> were caught.
>>>>> Moron, if you have evidence provide it.
>>>> Kiddo, you were already caught. End of story.
>>> Maybe for him, but not for me. I haven't seen any of the evidence
>>> other than what I've already told you about in my preceding post.
>>> I'm a little ticked off at both you and Osprey for the fruitless back-
>>> and-forth that no casual reader could be expected to follow. You've
>>> strung each other out through a lengthy chain of posts and I wish one
>>> of you would stop playing with the cards held so close to the chest.
>>> Peter Nyikos
>> Well, talk to Dingus about that - it's his way. This is what
>> he does when he feels the need to deny his own actions. He
>> decided once upon a time to try posting as other people,
>> juvenile shit like "I am a racist."
>
> Who said you are racist?
Did you see the quotation marks, Dingus?
> According to that posting, that was posted to someone named Adam H.
> and I strongly recall you stating over and over, when I first
> suspected you were Adam H., that you were not Adam H.
> Now you're saying....you are?
Did you see the quotation marks, Dingus?
My gods, but you're dumb.
IAAH
No, Dingus. This is what you've been doing for (literally)
years - so don't get whingy when it's turned around on you.
IAAH
Except that the block you (yes, YOU) posted from was and is
Comcast's residential block. Businesses are on different
subnets.
Awww, you didn't know there's a way to know that, did you?
Wow, are you *ever* out of your depth.
>
>
>
>
> There is not a reasonable
>> explanation for how that happened except for the simplest -
>> he posted those forgeries.
>>
>> That single thread I linked to has at least two posts from
>> him that he forged under other poster's names.
>
> But it's false, I didn't do that.
But yes, you did.
>
>> He will lie about it when confronted.
>
> I'm not lying. Speaking of lying, why don't you explain why you falsly
> accuse people of being felons and when you are confronted to post
> proof you run away.
No, you're lying. Just as always.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
You're nervous, it's way too obvious Adam. You slipped up, you are
able to lie at any time.
Ospr...@hotmail.com
Adam,
You lied and now you're busted. The only ones who will believe you
are your fellow liars.
You've proven me right in many areas
1) You'll lie
2) You will never ask a fellow left winger or pro-choicer to prove his
or her claims
3) You'll back up a fellow left winger or pro-choicer when he or she
lies
4) You live by the code "loyalty before honesty"
5) You are Adam, and I said that years ago
Ospr...@hotmail.com
No, that's not true.
>
> Awww, you didn't know there's a way to know that, did you?
> Wow, are you *ever* out of your depth.
>
>
>
> > There is not a reasonable
> >> explanation for how that happened except for the simplest -
> >> he posted those forgeries.
>
> >> That single thread I linked to has at least two posts from
> >> him that he forged under other poster's names.
>
> > But it's false, I didn't do that.
>
> But yes, you did.
No, I didn't. It appears you did.
>
>
>
> >> He will lie about it when confronted.
>
> > I'm not lying. Speaking of lying, why don't you explain why you falsly
> > accuse people of being felons and when you are confronted to post
> > proof you run away.
>
> No, you're lying. Just as always.
You did accuse me of being a felon. Are you denying that?
>
> --
> Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because
> if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more
> than that of blindfolded fear.
IAAH
Ah, so now even if you quote someone, it means that YOU
actually are the source of that statement, right?
Are you getting stupider? I think you are.
IAAH
Better prove that claim, Dingus. Just don't bother with that
quote thing, okay?
IAAH
It really is.
>
>> Awww, you didn't know there's a way to know that, did you?
>> Wow, are you *ever* out of your depth.
>>
>>
>>
>>> There is not a reasonable
>>>> explanation for how that happened except for the simplest -
>>>> he posted those forgeries.
>>>> That single thread I linked to has at least two posts from
>>>> him that he forged under other poster's names.
>>> But it's false, I didn't do that.
>> But yes, you did.
>
> No, I didn't. It appears you did.
Do explain how that works, then. Looked to me like I wasn't
in that thread at all. And, since I can see where you're
lumbering towards with this, do explain how "Adam H."
managed to post from YOUR IP address.
>>
>>
>>>> He will lie about it when confronted.
>>> I'm not lying. Speaking of lying, why don't you explain why you falsly
>>> accuse people of being felons and when you are confronted to post
>>> proof you run away.
>> No, you're lying. Just as always.
>
> You did accuse me of being a felon. Are you denying that?
How is an accusation a lie?