Why cater to gamers?

[TradeHound]

I'm not sure, but I think I read that the AG was designed mainly for
gamers. If that is true, I wonder why? Because I think it should be
designed specifically for coders.

I think it should be for coders and not gamers because:

1. Gamers already have consoles for their games (right?).
Gamers don't even really type that much, they just use specific
keys anyway.

2. Coders are at the computers for long hours and we need something
like this.
But we need it to work good for coding.

3. The casual computer user doesn't usually type for long hours.
If they are sitting at the computer for long hours, they usually
aren't typing, just surfing around, viewing, etc.

To make it for coders, things like the "F keys" should be more easily
worked with Ctrl, Alt, etc.
Alt-tab, Ctrl-tab, etc, should be easier.
And I'm sure there are some other things that should be changed for
coders.

I bought my AG 2 years ago. I tried it a couple times when I first
got it. I thought I would use it when I have some time to learn it,
but I haven't got around to it yet.

[alber...@gmail.com]

I've never felt that it really catered towards gamers. Infact,
playing games like UnrealTournament and any kind of RTS really feels
awkward on the AG. I use it all the time, but it will never replace
my keyboard at work (which is writing code). I DO use it to code with
at home, it's a lot slower, but coding from a recliner more than
compensates.

-al

[Pat C.]

yea i agree.. this thing should be for coders, i just dont see the normal person relearning such a device which can take months. Normal computer users dont care about productivity. Coders would adopt this in a second if this was shown to be as competitive as the the 2 leading coding keyboards:

Kinesis($400) or the Datahand ($1000)

In my office us coders are passionate about coding comfortably and efficiently for long hours. i tried training on this thing but for me not to be able to do a simple line selection via keystrokes really kills it. i think it would be best to target the coding community instead of gamers as i cant see the trackball beating anyone that uses a mouse to control the direction of view in a fps game anyway. 

this keyboard needs to be hands down geared toward coders. once adopted everyone else will follow since it is definately more comfortable, but not as efficient as of now. 

[Pat C.]

great.. would love to test it out... i think it would be best to make a video tutorial on it

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Hermann Klinke <h.kl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree and as Mike has already mentioned I have developed a remap that enables one to easily code (keyboard navigation and selection is easy) and replace the full keyboard in general since it supports all keyboard and mouse combinations. I will post it soon on the wiki. Other highlights include support for media keys, function keys, easy scrolling, fast and easy typing of international characters (which are easy to remember). It also only uses those keys that are easy to reach and it the key layout is optimized (based on letter frequency analysis), the downside of that is that you would have to relearn the whole layout again since mine is completely different from the default. I am already done with the remap, I just need to do more testing to make sure everything is working as intended....

[Pat C.]

how to setup the keyboard.. cuz right now.. i have absolutely no clue how to set it up and in my head i think its complicated cuz i never did a remapping of a keyboard. and i guess a video tutorial of some sorta coding session.. i woudl do that once i get the hang of it to show the power of the alphagrip while coding. cuz right now there is no videos of it in action while coding.

On Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 5:13 PM, Hermann Klinke <h.kl...@gmail.com> wrote:

what exactly do you want to see in the video tutorial? i can't quite imagine what i would show there in a video since all you would see is text magically appearing.

[Mike Willner]

FYI, not being coders ourselves, we designed the first embodiment of our technology with the prolific writer of emails, memos, reports, and other documents in mind.  The letter layout is designed to allow users to regularly switch between touch typing on a standard QWERTY keyboard and an AlphaGrip without any relearning lag time.  It appears that remapping programs, such as Autohotkey, have made the AlphaGrip useable, though not ideal, for coders.  We hope to produce a version in the future that is itself programmable.  We’ve received feedback from a number of users who like to use their AlphaGrips to play MMORPG’s such as World of Warcraft.  The learning curve for playing a game with an AlphaGrip as compared to learning to touch type is shorter, and we’ve also heard from some of our users that playing these games speeds up the learning process for typing.  We’ve also received feedback that surfing the net with the AlphaGrip’s thumb-controlled trackball is very enjoyable.  We believe the most compelling use of our technology would be in a handheld computer, including a smartphone, because in addition to enabling comfortable computing, it would also dramatically increase productivity relative to a thumb keyboard.

 

Mike

 

---

[ka...@cas.mcmaster.ca]

"Mike Willner" <mi...@alphagrip.com> wrote:

> FYI, not being coders ourselves, we designed the first embodiment of our
> technology with the prolific writer of emails, memos, reports, and other
> documents in mind.

At least for me, prolific document production involves at least as many
modifier keys, braces, etc. as prolific coding
(I write mostly LaTeX, in Emacs, under Linux).

> We've also received feedback that surfing the net with the AlphaGrip's
> thumb-controlled trackball is very enjoyable.

My only concern about the trackball is its gravity sensitivity ---
it doesn't work very well if you hold the grip at non-standard angles...
(I just tilted my optical Logitech trackball by about 100 degrees to the
left --- it also feels far too loose, but it still moves appropriately.)

However, I now normally use a tabbed window manager (XMonad)
which replaces most mousing with modifier-heavy key combinations,
so I need easy access to those for doing anything.

> We believe the most
> compelling use of our technology would be in a handheld computer, including
> a smartphone, because in addition to enabling comfortable computing, it
> would also dramatically increase productivity relative to a thumb
> keyboard.

I find that a very compelling scenario, too.
(But I haven't bought my Openmoko Freerunner yet. ;-) )

Somebody mentioned that one could take out the rubber weights ---
in the context of use with a mobile device,
it occurred to me that one might even want to replace them
with rechargeable batteries (can a smartphone take power from the
USB port while having it in host mode?).

Wolfram

[Scott]

Couldn't have said it better.

On Apr 2, 2009, at 10•57∆, Hermann Klinke wrote:

> Just my 2 cents:
>
> I don't feel any relearning lag even though my layout has no
> relation to QUERTY since the typing process is so different on the
> AG-5 from a standard keyboard.
>
> The future version of the AlphaGrip should be a complete replacement
> for the standard keyboard where every possible keyboard and mouse
> shortcut should easily be possible without requiring remaps although
> a programmable device is always nice.
>
> The future version of the AlphaGrip should come with modification
> accessories in all possible sizes and shapes (made out of plastic)
> that one could easily attach (e.g. plugs into the AlphaGrip) to suit
> everyone's hands. I just recently modified my AG-5 and it makes
> using it 10x more comfortable. But I also realized that this is a
> very hard task to enable easily for everyone.
>
> I work in the mobile phone business and in am pretty sure there
> would be no interest in an AlphaGrip for Mobile Phones unless it
> folds down to tiny size. And even then the process of unfolding it
> just to type a quick message would be too much of a hassle for most
> people. Combine that with the learning curve of the AlphaGrip and
> its uglyness in a world where everyone is obsessed with their style,
> it's almost guaranteed not to find any market. And this comes from
> someone who absolutely loves the AlphaGrip.
>
> Anyway, I would like to thank Mike again to think out of the box and
> develop such a wonderful product! I am sure that it will only become
> better over time.

[JSH]

alphagrip (igrip now?) would be nice with bluetooth and shift keys
that send standard keydown/up events. if all keys were reprogrammable
it would go a long way to making the igrip a better product without
increasing manufacturing costs.

[TradeHound]

Oh and it shouldn't cater to Mobile users either. Thumb texting....
well there really is no use designing a keyboard for that... they can
just type quick little acronyms, quick little blurbs, or whatever...
They don't need something like an AG.

[TradeHound]

Mke:

Well really your bottom line is money. Who is going to pay for this
thing? I think coders will pay for it. Coders really NEED something
like this, gamers don't. Gamers won't pay for something like this
because they already have something like this: their console! It
doesn't matter that gamers can adapt to your AG better than coders,
gamers don't care, gamers don't NEED this, they prrobably don't even
WANT this (because their console does a better job anyway), and they
probably won't spend any money on this. Am I making any sense?

[Steve Garritano]

Keep in mind that there are *many* gamers who don't use consoles (e.g. World
of Warcraft runs on PCs). I would like to see an improvement for the common
control sequences I use for word, powerpoint, photoshop, and just plain old
text email composition: ctrl-a, ctrl-c, ctrl-x, ctrl-v and I'm sure we'd all like to see
 a fix for SHIFT selecting (I do that frequently enough to notice the annoyance).
When browsing, I do miss the scroll wheel.

Steve

[TradeHound]

So Steve:
Do you think there is a big market of World of Warcraft gamers that
would pay $100 for an AG? I don't. I think the market is for
coders. I am a coder, I would (and already have paid) pay $100 for
something like an AG that would help me be more productive. But
unfortuately, I don't use my AG because it doesn't work very well for
coders. In fact I would pay ANOTHER $100 for an AG that DOES work for
me, a coder. I seriously doubt any gamer would do that.

So really, AG, you are going to make more money by catering directly
to coders, NOT gamers.

[Suraj Kurapati]

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 10:32 AM, TradeHound <Goo...@tradehound.com> wrote:
> In fact I would pay ANOTHER $100 for an AG that DOES work for
> me, a coder.  I seriously doubt any gamer would do that.
>
> So really, AG, you are going to make more money by catering directly
> to coders, NOT gamers.

I wholly agree with TradeHound. As a coder, I'm always looking for
(and willing to try) new keyboard/mouse technologies, and I am willing
to overlook the high price-tag if the device has merit. The AG5 has
been great in this respect: a fantastic device for a very reasonable
price.

Personally, I own two Kinesis keyboards (one for backup, in case the
company goes bankrupt or is bought out --- like the makers of the
fantastic TouchStream LP multi-touch keyboard who were bought out and
unfortunately silenced by Apple), an AG5 that I've taken apart and
hacked for a while, and several mainstream so-called "ergonomic"
keyboards which are minor improvements over the traditional IBM 104
keyboard.

The search for something better is never-ending for me -- and most
coders, I would say: we are constantly looking to improve our craft by
using better tools and methods. That's what makes us different from
regular "consumers" who are largely satisfied with the status quo.

[Bill Sun]

I must echo the sentiments of my fellow programmers.  The keyboards we use aid us in making a living and/or pursue our passions, thus it makes sense for us to invest in a quality keyboard that can make our coding environment more comfortable and enjoyable.

What AlphaGrip needs to fix with the current AG-5 is to make the next version programmable and include a better integrated pointing device.  And by "programmable" I mean it in a cross-platform way.  Many of us don't use Windows and thus it would be better if the AG can be easily remapped without being platform-dependent.

-Bill

[JSH]

if you are hell bent on catering to gamers, i recommend upgrading to
an optical trackball and using better quality keys. these cheap rubber
membrane keys really suck. also might want to consider adding a scroll
wheel or 2. come to think of it, these would help everybody...

[Pat C.]

same sediments as the above posters coming from a coding perspective. as  coder i think the price doesnt matter as long as its not ridiculously expensive. 

coders that are even interested in these type of keyboards shows a passion for productivity no matter what the cost. Please take into account that coders having even consider using a different kind of keyboard means they are not your average 30-50k salary employee's. And even a $300-$1000 would justify its cost being that it can increase productivity. i would imagine that most of the top end ergonomic keyboards are purchased by coders. and most of them are at least $300+. Take data hand for example, i actually considered buying it but it wasnt sold anymore. i think it was due to marketing....

[Steve Garritano]

I don't know about the market size; it's a good question that would require some serious
research, but clearly it's not limited WoW players. By the way, Blizzard claims over 10
million WoW players so there's obviously a huge pool of *potential* buyers there (none
of them use consoles).

I'm not seeing why gaming and coding requirements have to be incompatible. I still want to
see a fixes for things like ctrl-a, ctrl-c, ctrl-x, ctrl-v and SHIFT selectiion.

Steve

On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 10:32 AM, TradeHound <Goo...@tradehound.com> wrote:

[Bill Sun]

I think by making the AG programmable and using a better pointing device (better trackball, or something else) will make the AG a better device for both gaming and coding.  It's just that I think coders are more likely to buy the AG because it is something that they have a need for.  Many WoW players have the alternative to use voice chat nowadays, so investing in something like the AG for type chatting isn't necessary, while coders still have to code by typing.

Although, being both a coder and a gamer, I'd definitely welcome any changes that benefits one or the other.

-Bill

[Mi...@alphagrip.com]

What's your opinion on making the next version Bluetooth? Is the lag
time an issue for gamers? We'd like to make it wireless, but with a
USB connection as a back-up.

-Mike

On Apr 4, 12:47 pm, Bill Sun <billk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think by making the AG programmable and using a better pointing device
> (better trackball, or something else) will make the AG a better device for
> both gaming and coding.  It's just that I think coders are more likely to
> buy the AG because it is something that they have a need for.  Many WoW
> players have the alternative to use voice chat nowadays, so investing in
> something like the AG for type chatting isn't necessary, while coders still
> have to code by typing.
>
> Although, being both a coder and a gamer, I'd definitely welcome any changes
> that benefits one or the other.
>
> -Bill
>
> On Sat, Apr 4, 2009 at 7:41 AM, Steve Garritano

> <steve.garrit...@gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
>
> > I don't know about the market size; it's a good question that would require
> > some serious
> > research, but clearly it's not limited WoW players. By the way, Blizzard
> > claims over 10
> > million WoW players so there's obviously a huge pool of *potential* buyers
> > there (none
> > of them use consoles).
>
> > I'm not seeing why gaming and coding requirements have to be incompatible.
> > I still want to
> > see a fixes for things like ctrl-a, ctrl-c, ctrl-x, ctrl-v and SHIFT
> > selectiion.
>
> > Steve
>
> > On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 10:32 AM, TradeHound <Goo...@tradehound.com> wrote:
>
> >> So Steve:
> >> Do you think there is a big market of World of Warcraft gamers that
> >> would pay $100 for an AG?  I don't.  I think the market is for
> >> coders.  I am a coder, I would (and already have paid) pay $100 for
> >> something like an AG that would help me be more productive.  But
> >> unfortuately, I don't use my AG because it doesn't work very well for
> >> coders.  In fact I would pay ANOTHER $100 for an AG that DOES work for
> >> me, a coder.  I seriously doubt any gamer would do that.
>
> >> So really, AG, you are going to make more money by catering directly

> >> to coders, NOT gamers.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Bill Sun]

I have never tried wireless Bluetooth input devices, due to the concern with the responsiveness of the devices. However, with USB connection as the back-up, I would say that the Bluetooth lag becomes a non-issue, since I can always use the wired connection whenever I want to.

One way that I can imagine the design and use of this, is that, the Bluetooth/charger base would have an USB connection receptacle to that I can connect the AG to and the AG would automatically switch to wired mode, without me making an additional USB connection to the computer.  The AG may appear to be an USB input device to the host computer all along, just that the communication between the Bluetooth/charger base can be switched between wired pass-through and wireless Bluetooth mode.

While I'm used to wired input devices, I'd definitely welcome an input device that can free me from my desktop but still allow me to use it for some enjoyable gaming sessions.

-Bill