Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

[Norm Olson]

 

I was contacted "off forum" by a forum subscriber who took offense from my recent postings concerning killing cops. My mention of PTSD military being hired as LEO was interpreted as disrespect for the military.    Some of you may feel also feel like the postings were "over the edge."   The person who contacted me shall remain anonymous, and the identity of that individual shall remain confidential.    But since the bigger question of trusting Law Enforcement is actually the issue, I shall post this response. Before I do, however, please view a poll provided by Jews For The Preservation of Firearms Ownership, showing the response of more than a thousand who were asked,"

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/blue-crim-poll.htm

 Do you trust the police"    Having done so, please read on. . .


I certainly can understand your response to what I wrote.  You reflected your PERSONAL bias and that is to be expected!  Being a GI yourself, I would expect you to defend other soldiers.  But in trying to explain myself so that you can understand, you'll have to try to divorce yourself from being "you" and put in your place a LEO who has just read the postings.   If you were a LEO what would your response be:  Anger of a false accusation or concern that your image is being distorted.  Would you duck the accusation, ignore it, or defend yourself?   If I lie about the brutality and injustice exercised by some LEOs then you should be angry that I put forth a false witness. One the other hand, if what I say below makes you consider that you (as a LEO) do have an image problem, what then shall you say?   Read what I've written below as if you were a member of Law Enforcement.

   When I say that we (militia) "shake a gun in the face of tyrants," who do you suppose that applies to?  Why the patriot's constant open and veiled threat against tyrants?   If you were a kind and level-headed LEO such as those who once tended to your person needs in such a special way, what would say about the postings?  Would you defend yourself from the accusations, or would you admit that cops get a "bad rap" because of the behavior of SOME cops?

   Please don't underestimate  the power of peer pressure. Think of this:  The government controlled media has a duty to demonize the militia, thereby using manufactured consent distort its purpose and place in our society. The militia's response has been to try to "live down" the accusations and lies by changing their behavior, rhetoric, and public image. Now, if you were a LEO who has knowledge of abuses and crimes from others in the uniform, what would you do?  How would you go about changing the "image," or for that matter, how would you respond to my postings?  If you were honest, you'd agree that there is a Blue Code of Silence.  You'd agree that some, NOT ALL, cops violate  the rights of individuals without hesitation--not all, but it's not ALL that makes my criticisms necessary.

   When cops read these "extreme postings" they must have some opinion about how some people view them.  I can cite you many instances where cops murdered patriots...shot them down like dogs... without due process, without Miranda, without a chance to surrender, without calling on me or other militia leaders to work as intermediaries to de-escalate the standoffs.  These acts of injustice are well known in the Patriot community.

  My harsh and extreme words are directed TO THE TYRANT, but not the tyrant alone.  There is a reason that I speak to all Law Enforcement. You see, there are good cops who want be lawful.   Remember that, please.   Not every cop is a bad cop, but when good cops will not exert the pressure on abusive thugs in uniform to change, what does that say about the good cops?   If good cops remain silent about the abuses of bad cops, isn't that the same as silent approval?  Why do they condone the actions of bad cops by their silence?  Perhaps that's why the cops won't hold Town Hall meetings with the public because they don't want to answer that very question!

   Something too you need to remember about extreme rhetoric, it is a very useful tool in creating peace.   Does that statement surprise you?   Do you know the US Foreign Policy during the 50 and early 60s concerning MAD?  Why was the extreme rhetoric of Mutually Assured Destructive useful in keeping the peace?   Think it through.  We told the Russians that we had 2000 nukes ready to launch IF THEY ATTACKED.  The Russians said the same thing.  Neither the US nor the Soviets really knew how far to push their threats that may be interpreted as an attack.  Indeed,  the entire Cuban Missile Crisis was an exercise in extreme rhetoric. We finally scared the Russians enough to pull the offensive missiles
 out of Cuba.

   Such a mutual agreement that either side can annihilate the other actually brought peace and a desire to agree on nuclear disarmament.  Let me ask you, when you see cops in black Kevlar, with hardened  vehicles, and exotic weapons, wearing hoods  and masks to conceal their identity, what do you receive as the message they want to send?  Why do they look so powerful and frightening.  Why do they  look more like Storm Troopers than Peace Officers?  When there is a dynamic  entry/arrest taking  place, why all the yelling and screaming by the cops?   Do you realize that in those moments, these men become transformed by the adrenalin rush and the  anxiety of the event?  It is not peace officers who I defend against, but rather  those who become monsters when they are unleashed. You may remember the movie, "Hurt  Locker."   Why did young soldier go back into harm's way?   What was he addicted to that required his return to the war zone so that he could get his fix?

   As I mentioned before in the posting, I have never heard of a Law Enforcement  Town Hall meeting where LEOs talk with the public.   Why?   You say that I should be civil and non threatening, and yet, could it be that there is no  public dialogue because we the people will have some information that is best left unsaid?  How do you explain or interpret the Poll that I cited at  http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/blue-crim-poll.htm    Don't you think that in the atmosphere of  oppression and corruption by our government, that cops themselves should extend the olive branch to the public? Why haven't they?   Why is it that we the people must bow to the power and control of Law Enforcement when we know the amount of corruption behind their actions.  And, we haven't even discussed what happens in the court room when LEOs tell outright lies and/or withhold the truth!!   You cannot say this DOESN'T happen. IT DOES!!   Who then are the good cops and the bad cops?   When a good cop says nothing to stop an injustice, isn't that a cover-up?

   Also, after wearing the uniform for more than 20 years, I have earned the right to criticize the military.  To NOT speak out about the abusive mentality of ex-military who go to work in Law Enforcement is to say that I should cover-up their misdeeds. Should I be silent when men who SHOULD be receiving help are instead put in a uniform and released into the general public with lethal force as their primary tool to subdue us? Being silent about the wrongful actions of fellow soldiers is just as bad as cops remaining silent about the abusive actions of other LEOs.   What would you do if you had exclusive knowledge about the massacre at My Lai?

  I was contacted by a dispatcher from one of the large Law Enforcement agencies in our area.  The dispatcher was pro-militia and a Constitutionalist. The individual told me that I am on a "cautionary stop" list, meaning that no one cop will attempt to stop me without another cruiser alongside.    Now, I don't know what that means to you or to anyone else, but to me it means freedom and peace. It means also that I have a greater responsibility to make sure I abide by traffic laws because I am a responsible motorist.  It also means that I won't be stopped for the amusement of bored cops or the training of newbie’s.  It also means that the cops KNOW that I am armed and that I am aware that a vast majority of cops are "good guys," but that some just want strut their stuff.   If I am stopped by multiple cops, it must also mean that they think I've done something very wrong. In that case, they need to talk with me.  You see, there's responsibility all around. The fact that we the people have parity with those who would violate our rights provides a safe environment for both.  You might consider gun control.   Do you believe that we the people should have the same weapons that Law Enforcement carry?  If not, why not?

   You can imagine the uneasiness of the Alaska Troopers who visited my home because of complaints from neighbors about the gunfire.   I treated them with the respect they probably WERE TOLD not to expect!    On two occasions, individual troopers came by. In each contact, they left very satisfied when I showed them my range, and also when we ceased shooting immediately when we found out that kids were having an outside birthday party a mile away and were nervous about the noise.  No hassle, no disrespect, and
 no threats.  Respect is a two way street.  If I'm treated with respect, I will give it, measure for measure.

   So, there's another reason for the extreme rhetoric.  It makes for far more reasonable and rational contacts.   Treat me with respect and I will treat you with respect, that's all I've ever asked from the cops.   Having a dozen patriot friends gunned down by SWAT teams, snipers, or shooters from helicopters, I've come to realize that to stop the growth of the police state and the unlawful controls being forced on the people by the central government, I must rely on the doctrine of Assured Mutual Destruction.  I may not like it, but what else can I do?    Do you think that you will stop a cop from arresting you by pleading your cause?  Do you think that by being buddies with LE, you'll turn the growing tide of oppression and the government increases its power over the people and the elimination of Constitutional protections?    I'm not asking to be a law breaker without consequences, but rather it is my responsibility to abide by the law as best I can.  I merely ask that Law Enforcement do the same.   Why is it, for example, that a cop can lie on the stand without fear, yet if I do it, I will be guilty of perjury?

   Patriots across the land wrestle with the question of "can you trust the cops?"   If I answer NO, does that become a condemnation against our fellow soldiers or some kind of an insult directed toward Law Enforcement?  (remember, I spent more than 20 years in the military).   If I say "I don't trust the cops and I will defend myself with lethal force if my life is threatened without lawful cause," and some of them happen to be ex-military who concealed their mental disorder, how can you logically apply that to all military who take jobs as cops?    It isn't logical or is it fair.

   As I said, the peer pressure of good cops OUGHT TO control the behavior of the bad ones, but the Blue Code of Silence PREVENTS that from happening. You and I and everyone else know it.   So just how to you protect yourself from the bad cops?

   If you have an answer for that, please let me (and all of us) know.

 

 

Cmdr

[ray southwell]

Norm,

The good cop is just like the rest of us. They need to keep their job.

 

When we see abuse in any job we have a choice. Turn a blind eye and protect your livelihood or take the risk of being a whistle.

 

Recently, I chose to be a whistle-blower. Other employees knew what was happening. They always said the same thing. I have bills, I need my job.

 

Do not expect anything different from the good cops as we do from any good person. The need to generate an income always outweighs the risk of exposing the truth.

 

Sad but true.

Ray

 

 

 

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[ray southwell]

[Christopher Waddell]

Ok, turn me into the bad guy Norm,

You mentioned that if vets with PTSD disclosed that they had the condition, they would not be hired, therefore it is not the fault of the police department for hiring the vet because he lied about his condition. Yes, bad cops do exist, as I gave you a personal story reinforcing that fact. But LEOs from that same department helped me and stood by me in a time of great need. Yes a "code of silence" also exists, as it does in the militia no doubt. If you were to find out that a Commander or anyone in his group had acquired illegal weapons or explosives, you would not have them arrested. This does not go just for you, but most militia members. LEO's do not hold meetings to the public this day in age because for several reasons. I can tell you that as a bar bouncer, that if I act like the bar's "friend" that people will try to slip in under age kids, smoke pot in the building or try to resist me while I am escorting them out for breaking a bar rule (like being over drunk, spitting on the floor or fighting) If I maintain professionalism, call them Sir or Ma'am, and avoid friendly contact, patrons act differently. They obey bar rules, expect to be escorted out if they break them, and are genuinely complaint. So I can relate to a LEO when he gives people a stone face and is overly professional. Overly friendly cops put themselves in danger to be taken advantage of.

It must be said that I do not support police brutality, nor them breaking any of the laws they are supposed to be enforcing, but most of the tactics and uniforms that they wear make their jobs easier, and arrests happen safer. A gang banger sees a police officer, alone eating donuts and chatting with the neighborhood, he wont give him much thought. However if that same gang banger sees two law officers in a decked out police SUV, wearing bullet proof vests, multiple types of weapons on their belts exc, he is less likely to fire on the pair or try to fight them in the future. As for SWAT teams raiding houses like soldiers entering an insurgent's house. Well yea, some of those "insurgents" here in the states would fire on a good-ol-boy cop trying to make an arrest themselves. "Good Cops" in many (not all) cases will not "rat" or be a whistle blower because they do not want to risk losing backup from those officers.

My point I am trying to make here Norm is that from birth we are told to accept cops, good or bad and weather we trust them or not. When we are in trouble, we call 911 so the cops can roll in with lights flashing and save the day. When the day comes and SHTF, local and state cops will be there. The militia will be there, and the people that need help will be there. If we do not try to build a relationship with both the other parties in the SHTF world, we risk being FIRED ON by both parties.

Quote legal crap all you want to, and talk about your former military service all you want to Norm, but we dont live back in the 50s and 60's any more. Not only have the cops changed, but the crime has changed. How the militia is viewed has changed. As much as you want to talk about "shaking rifles at tyranny" the media just tells the public we exist to take down the government by killing cops and judges. Cox did not help this at all. I am not saying we should just roll over and let LEO's do what they please, however building a relationship with those in your area could be beneficial. During peace time and during conflict. Yea, the cops got all the good gear, guns and are government backed. We got a bunch of volunteers made up of anarchists, military vets and the older generation. 

When you talk about the militia not needing public support, you are wrong sir, very wrong. You cannot hope to help Alaskans if you do not try to help win their hearts and minds. Bashing cops and talking about vets with PTSD the way you have does not do that sir. You are crazy to believe that an organization that is viewed as a bunch of nuts now will be accepted with open arms once SHTF. They are terrified of the militia now, and if we do not worry about our image now they will be even more terrified of us when we are actually firing our weapons.

The colonial militias were accepted by the population because they had been formed by the British government to fight against the French and Natives. Therefore they already had a decent reputation. We have not fought any wars as a militia, the only things that the public knows about us is what the media tells them about us. That we are crazy crack pots hellbent on the distraction of this country, no matter how untrue that is. The pen is much mightier then the sword sir. "Back in the day" police brutality still happened. Hell remember the '60's when police AND firefighters unleashed dogs and fire hoses on peaceful demonstrators when blacks were fighting for civil rights? Your dream world of how the world has changed and how you are going to save it is completely false. By saying because good cops wont use peer pressure to make bad cops stop being bad, we should not try to maintain good relationships with at least the good cops is ridicules. By alienating those that could be an asset just by the uniform they wear and the badge on their chest you risk not just what people say about you, but lives down the line.

While working  today I witnessed several local cops pulling over a large pickup, I could not hear what was being said, but both parties involved seamed angry and confrontational. It was obvious that the pulled over occupants where from out of town and did not take kindly to being pulled over. On the other hand I personally knew both officers that did the pulling over. Both LEO's have served this town for years and have clean records and did not take kindly to being cussed at and poked in the chest. However when I talked to one of the Officers after I got off work (yes cops do drop by to visit me in my office, because they know my group is an asset, because I don't talk about "shaking rifles and not to trust cops" they told me they had pulled over the vehicle for swerving and were concerned for the driver being intoxicated. Even after finding out the real reason of them swerving, (picking up something off the floor) understanding the driver was not intoxicated, getting cussed out, getting a finger pushed into their chest and it even being implied to them that their life could be in danger if the driver saw them again, they let them go with just a warning.

This professionalism I feel could not be expressed by many of the members of the militias that I have talked to in the past. My message is this, do not alienate all of Law Enforcement and "PTSD burnouts" or you may find yourself in trouble in the future when you need their help.

I have talked to several LEO's in my area and their views on our government and the amount of money allocated to SWAT teams and indeed to their own department coffers is indeed obscene. However they put their boots on one at a time just like us. They are people just like us. They want to go to work, have a nice, smooth day just like us.

I understand that you served in the military, specifically the Air Force and left after 20 years as an NCO. Your leadership qualifications are non-disputable. What I have a problem with is your dream world that you live in where you think the public will just calmly let you take charge when SHTF. Take it from a man that has seen it pop off before here in the United States, Iraq and Haiti personally. You MUST have public support. You cannot be seen as the bad guys, the liberal media already paints us that way, talking about not trusting cops and even killing them makes us look worse.

The deeds of some LEO's have made you try and paint all LEO's badly. However the deeds of a few "patriots" have done the same for us. While police are government backed and people are taught to trust police since birth to solve their problems, they are told the opposite of us.

From my experience from Hurricane Katrina, Iraq and Haiti, groups of people that did not try to work with law enforcement, or already accepted groups were either shot down in the street like dogs, or their groups found it too difficult to make a difference and stopped operating. You can investigate yourself sir, or anybody else that is reading this, but after Katrina in the Gulf Coastline communities. armed neighborhood watch groups had small miniature wars with homeowners, lone police officers still doing their jobs, as well as other armed neighborhood watch groups. White neighborhoods were shot at by black neighborhoods because their groups were "racist" because they were full of "white gun totting rednecks" These groups, while having good intentions in mind (stopping looting, organizing emergency response, exc.) were not trusted be each other and therefore could not operate together to stop violence. On the contrary the were most of the problem.

I apologize if I am wrong sir, but while you are a former NCO, you do not have the experience I posses when it comes to SHTF and a public's response to government backed vs. regular joes trying to help. While our constitution backs us, those in DC and the media do not. It is up to us to change at least the public's view. We can not hope to achieve this by bashing cops, bashing vets diagnosed with PTSD, and taking about "shaking rifles at Washington." This behavior can be easily misquoted to make our good intentions look evil.

Additionally, it has peeved me to see you wear your Army Patrol Cap while indoors. While working for Uncle Sam, if I had seen a Private continue to wear their cover (hat for those of you who never served) while indoors I would have smoked or otherwise verbally disciplined them. When I noticed this behavior from you on YouTube (Senate Meetings) and again at the Spring Summit Meeting I was annoyed but did not approach you about it because of respect to your rank. Additionally, you wore your cap...while in uniform... in the Senate. I would expect anyone to remove their cover while in a Courthouse... much less the freaking Senate Building of the United States of America. It may be the southern born and bred into me that give me my "say what you want about me but respect my friends, my family and most importantly my country" attitude. While you have dealt with the stereotype of the militia that you no doubt have contributed to, I have dealt with stereotyping that my entire life that I have fought to get over.

Because I am white and southern I am a racist. False

Because I am small I will accept being beaten. False

Because I am a Veteran I have PTSD and cannot control my anger. False

Because I am Christian I do not respect people's individual rights to practice their own beliefs. False

Because I have many scars and a few tattoos I am an Outlaw and wish to break the law. False

Because I am the leader of a group defined by the Constitution as a militia I am a religious, racial, or terrorist fanatic. FALSE

You continue to alienate people by,

-Taking the actions by a few of a group and placing them on the shoulders of the entire group

-Questioning people's status as a patriot when they are non Christians, while supporting extremist, "head for the hills" types of people

-Annoying vets with obvious lack of respect for uniform or government buildings

I contacted you off-forum like a grown man, asking you to retract your dehumanizing of veterans with the condition of PTSD as well as retract your statement that we should not trust LEOs because they are all stone faced, law breaking mercenaries. Yes you can cite many instances of patriots being murdered by cops, but I can cite many more instances of cops being murdered by right wing extremist groups like the Aryen Brotherhood, Cults like the one from Waco and crack pots. Police and public views have been tainted by these groups and you cannot hope to gain respect by condoning cops and embracing your "patriots". It is obvious to me that there are 4 groups of people on this forum.

1. Trained Veterans: People that have shown again and again their willingness to serve and protect by being in the military, former officers, EMS, and Fire Fighters.

2. Anarchists, Fascists and Racists: These extremists piss on our flag, our constitution and only seek to join the militia to maintain their own power hungry, aggressive lifestyles.

3. Federal Informants, CIA, media, or concerned LEO's that try to poke and prod us into doing something stupid so they can bust us, make us look like the bad guys and destroy us by making us act like a bunch of clucking chickens and feel good about doing it after reading some of the hate speech on this forum.

4. Regular people that hold blue and white collar jobs that fly the US flag in their front yards.

Your attitudes and what you write about do several things including piss off the Vets, strengthen the Extremists (making the militia look even worse) Make it easier for informants, CIA, and media to do their job while making them feel better at the same time and make the regular Joes and Janes distance themselves from us.

You speak of how "do gooder militia" force the destruction and the disbandment of our groups. But I think people like you do. You were not re-elected commander of the Michigan Militia because you do not think about what you say. A building blows up and you scream "It was the Japs!" making you look like a conspiracy nut and because you were the commander, all of the militia looking like conspiracy nuts. Additionally, I have noticed that you keep on trying to group all the militias in this state under your name, the "Alaskan Citizen's Militia". Sorry but no, I am not part of your group, I am part of another. So stop trying to put all the other groups under your flag. I will resist wearing your patch until my dying day, especially if you continue to talk the way to do, and support the idiots that break the law again and again that call themselves patriots and bring the rest of us down to their level. I did not know Cox, however I watched his entire courtroom appearance and was told of his "common law court" in a restaurant." By embracing him and pasting the word "patriot" on him again and again your attach other labels to the rest of us. Words like "extremist, terrorist, murder, kidnapper, bad guy, crack pot, outlaw" and more!

Cops shot down or arrested patriots in your unit or others because they did not trust you or other commanders to mediate or help, much the same way you do not trust them. Your "mutual destruction" argument is NOT valid. During peace time they will wittle us down to nothing if people like you talk the way you do and act the way you do. If a conflict between LEO's and militia arise, it does not matter who is at fault. They will win because the media will paint them as the good, us as the bad. Even good cops, seeing their friends cut down and watching the media representation will make them turn into bad cops.

I am part of this forum so that I can communicate with other leaders throughout the state so we can orchestrate events and indeed even our groups in a great time of need. I am not here, and indeed will not sit by watching a commander that is well known as you try to crudely paste words to us.

How dare you sir. How dare you drag the simple act of training to help our communities through the mud such as you have. I "shake my rifle" by calling and talking to my representatives personally. By emailing them weekly just as a concerned citizen. I use my rank as a commander to be known locally by all emergency agencies and armed forces in my area (National Guard and Coast Guard) The respect I am given and the shock that I hear from people once they find out I'm not a crack pot is given to me again and again. People here respect my group and trust them to help them from all emergencies, conflict or natural disaster because I reach out to them. The militia is only a department of my organization. There are others that refuse to raise arms that serve by being in natural disaster response units.

You have made a grave mistake by simply shrugging off my polite but stern, off forum email requesting that your fix your mistakes in another email. If you and others on this forum continue to act the way you are, I will remove myself. Yes I am a patriot. Yes I am against tyranny, and yes I am against the police state that we have become. But we are at a cross roads sir. Either alienate potential allies and continue to make the militia look like terrorists or try to reach out to your communities, gain their support and then it does not matter what the National News says. It is clear to me that you have not reached out and gained your community's support. The cops that came to your door after the children down the road became afraid makes that clear. Had your reached out, the people's parents would of showed up and asked you to cease fire until the party was finished. But because they were afraid they called the cops on you.

You are a preacher so I know you will understand this: Before pointing out the speck in another man's eye, first remove the plank from your own.

I am a born again christian. I put together a bible study in every army barracks my bunk was in. I love Jesus. However I do not force my men to carry my ideals on my religion nore my politics. My militia as well as the historical militia did and does not have a political view. The patriots at Lexington did not fire on the English initially because of their tyranny, they were just keeping the redcoats out of town after they (the redcoats) had fired on unarmed civilians throwing snowballs at them. My group adapts the same attitude. No matter who you are. No matter what flag is on your shoulder or lack there of, we will fire on you or otherwise protect our communities, friends and families from your if it is clear that you seek to harm us. Taxation, the Quartering of English Troops and other injustices did not start nor signal the militia to step in. They were formed years earlier to combat enemies that threatened their homes personally. They fought only after redcoats opened fire on them.

You have said that the Alaskan Continuation is "unconstitutional". That makes no sense sir. Plus the forming of this state in the first place was rushed and violated United States as well as International Law as established by UN. The forming of this state violated the Civil Rights of the Natives as well as the settlers that had been here for years because many of them did not know of the vote (interior) or could not read, write or recite English (many natives at the time) Additionally the military was encouraged to vote for statehood, even though UN treaty which the US helped to create described the military as an "occupying force" and therefore could not vote. That was in '59. The tyranny and police state attitude hasn't just happened in the last 20 years, it's been a re-occurring theme through the years of this country. The militia was well respected through those years until the actions of a few drug it's name through the mud. You help to support those false accusations of the militia. You label all LEO's as evil, faceless men and women, even when many of them are just regular people, outstanding people that just wish to keep their communities safe... just like us. Therefore they label as as evil, faceless law breakers.

Check your attitude before it is checked for you. Again I contacted to off forum so I could give you the respect I wished to give you, and have always given you as well as asking you to fix the mistakes you made in those emails. Failing to do so and sugar coating what you said while simply shrugging me off was a grave mistake. It's all about respect sir, I have tried to view you in a positive light, but that confidence is being shaken.

Sincerely,

Christopher Waddell

Commander of the Alaskan Contingent Guard (ACG) Security Forces at Valdez Station

Pissed-off Patriot

---

From: Norm Olson <norma...@alaska.net>
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 6:47 PM
Subject: [AlaskaCitizensMilitia] Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

[Blake Sawyer]

I have not posted on this forum for nearly 8 months I believe. I have sat back, shut up, and just watched. I read the emails, not all of them, but most. I am not quite sure what to say. I think most everything that Mr. Waddell said is very valid. I felt inclined to the extent that I should back him up. I think the word militia has just about been painted as close to terrorist as possible. As far as the PTSD issue, for all the non vets on that read this, just so you are all aware, the military docs umbrella diagnose PTSD. I would guess maybe 25 percent of all of those who have been diagnosed with it, have it to an extent that would be dangerous. Also, I wave at the cops here all the time, they leave me alone, I have a Gun control is using both hands sticker on my ball hitch cover and USMC plates, never have had an issue. If you go out looking for a fight, i am sure you will find one. I myself will be trying to do what ever I think is best to help others which may include helping law enforcement when SHTF. For me its not where your allegiances are, its how competent you are and what you are trying to do. If the cops are good cops, and they are trying to help, and when I talk to them they seem sincere, then they have my full support. Same goes with the national guard. I still am on contract for another 6 months with the Marines, so if SHTF within that time frame there's a good chance I won't even be here. I love the fact there are proud patriots out there, that there is good men and women who are preparing for rough roads ahead. All I want to get across to who ever reads this, is do it smart, and be sincere with what ever choice it is you decide to make.

 

Semper Fi

[Norm Olson]

Ok, turn me into the bad guy Norm,

 

 

 

Chief Waddell,

 

     I did not identify you, but  I did want to get "out in front of this issue,"  that is, I wanted

to open this discussion to everyone and let everyone know where we all stand.  I know

that my postings have created some controversy and it's best to find out where we all

stand since we may be called upon to ally ourselves at some point in the future.  I certainly

don't want to be "blind-sided" later down the road.

 

I didn't make you into the bad by.  In fact, I asked you to look at my point of view

AS IF you were a member of Law Enforcement.  You would never have to 

identify yourself, but I'm glad that you did.   There was nothing personal

intended.   It is not "you" v. "me" but rather two totally different points of view that

are in contention and open for debate.   That is why all militia must choose NOW where to stand. 

    I've had this debate several times over the past 17 years. Historically, whenever the militia got a black eye

because of the actions of one of it's members, the entire militia shifted into damage

control.    Many of the things you've said below are misstated, historically inaccurate,

or distorted, but  I will not take the time to correct them all since it wouldn't make much

difference.  I just ask for a fair and accurate debate without rancor or disrespect for

another's point of view. 

  I do think it would be good to get these viewpoints out in the open and allow everyone

 to make his/her choice as to where they want to stand if they want to stand at all.  

It would be totally wrong for me to hide my feelings and difference of opinion. I want

everyone to know where I stand and that I've not strayed one degree from the initial

course I set back in April of 1994. 

   We all have the 1st Amendment and freedom to express ourselves without feeling

threatened for what we say.   I therefore invite all voices, dissenting or otherwise

to take part in this important discussion.

 

   If you have something to say, feel free to express it. If you end up disagreeing with

either point of view, that's okay.   Discussing the issue will help in making a clear

and educated choice.  I honor those who speak their mind.   There's an old saying

that "iron sharpens iron."  I believe that to be true.   Debates can help to know where

we all stand.

 

Norm Olson    

[Norm Olson]

Blake,

            I too will assist Law Enforcement AS LONG AS THEY ARE ACTING LAWFULLY.

Let's be clear that that which is lawful may not be legal and that which is legal may not be

lawful.   There is a huge difference there.    As long as the governmental authority, be it

the local LE, NG, or Troopers are staying within the limits of the Constitution, I will

respect and uphold them.   When they violate under the color of law, the lawful

ordinances of our social compact, I will not obey, nor assist, but will refuse and will

do everything I can to protect the people from such abuse.

     I do believe there is a real issue with the Blue Code of Silence.   It is the responsibility

of those in LE to make sure they EARN the respect of the people through lawful

behavior and not by forcing people to react based on fear.   Law Enforcement has

a long way to go to earn my respect.   But sadly, they've never tried.    I said earlier

that LE doesn't have Town Hall Meetings with ordinary citizens.   Even though the

polls show that people do not trust Law Enforcement, LE still does not make an effort

to communicate with the general public.

     Ray and I have put on several "meet the militia" public seminars over the years.

People in large numbers came. In one instance back in Michigan, while we and the

public were in the conference hall, the cops were in the parking lot taking down license numbers!

It made the press and became an embarrassment to LE because it proved that LE

were conducting surveillance on ordinary people for exercising their right to assemble without fear.

 

Norm

[blake.s...@gmail.com]

I understand what you are saying as far as the law vs legal issue that LE will interpert, thus enforce. I honestly can not say that I know every law or that i can even remember half of what the constituion says. All I need to know is what I think is just and what is not. So as long as LE is sincere and staying focused on keeping the peace and protecting those who need it, I will be behind them 100 percent. The minute Homeland security shows up with goon squads, thats when this guy has to start making some real tough choices.

[ray southwell]

Christopher,

You justify police behavior because of the threat of “gang bangers.” Unfortunately the police have been trained to believe the gang bangers are everywhere. So many police officers disrespect us because we are all a threat to them. You call their behavior professionalism. Some might call it racism.

 

You did help me understand why nurses have been hit, bit, spit on, had feces thrown at us, cussed out, shot at and threatened by State Troopers. We must be too friendly to our patients. We must change with the times and become professionals as the police, it is not the 50’s and 60’s..

 

This behavior, towards nurses, is not accepted by the police. They will return the abuse or arrest you, because they are professionals.

 

When it happens to nurses the local prosecutor is not interested.

Ray

[ray southwell]

Blake,

I was pulled over a few years ago by a police officer. It was 0200 the day after super bowl Sunday. He said I was speeding.

 

 I fear the police. It was dark and I was alone. I refused to roll my window all the way down. I accepted that he would write me a ticket.

 

He ordered me to roll my window down, I refused. I gave him my license through the one inch open area of my window.

 

When he came back he started to question me about whether I had been drinking and what prescription medications I was taking. He wanted to know, why I refused to obey his command to roll the window down.  I refused to answer those questions. Just give me the ticket.

 

He then started to bang his metal clip board/box on my window stating he couldn't’t get it through the window for me to sign.

 

My point is this-If we submit to the police, all of our rights, everything will be fine, maybe. If we do not, we will be terrorized by them.

 

A nurse friend was threatened, to be arrested, while at work because she refused to give up a patient’s rights.

 

We are living in a police state and I am frightened of most police officers. I believe most people are.

Ray

From: Blake Sawyer <blake.s...@gmail.com>
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:14 PM

[ray southwell]

Norm,

I believe it was in the winter of 1993-94. One of the State Police officer's (Michigan) who were taking license numbers was married to a nurse friend of mine.

 

When he found out I was there, he had a meeting with me. He told me how dangerous the underground militia was and attempted to convince me not to become involved.

 

By April of 1994 not only did I become involved, we went public.

Ray

From: Norm Olson <norma...@alaska.net>
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:26 AM

[Justin Nusunginya]

Ray's example of nurses not recieiving the same treatment as police officers when dealing with unruly people is a good example of why most people do not trust law enforcement. They have become a gang, they are a gang. They look after themselves before anyone or anything else, I realized this even before I was aware of the Blue Code.
 
Take for example, a prostitute gets killed, the police will treat it as business as usual. Now, imagine a police officer/FBI agent gets killed, even if the investigators did not know this individual, the case is taken VERY seriously, just watch the fireworks fly. Law Enforcement has become a force of tribalism, they have repeatedly overstepped their bounds even when people knew their rights.
 
I have actually heard police officers whining about such things as the 'Miranda Law', and other conditions that limit their ability to do as they will.
 
They have also shifted into a hard line position of showing force, wearing full combat gear, assault weapons, riot shields and the like. They wish to indimiate us and have us fear them. But I will not be intimidated. I do not fear them so much as I distrust them. Here we are living in the 21st century and we still have government forces with a dark ages mentality. All they're doing is proving us right when we state that government only knows force.
 
Government does not negotiate, it does not level with you, it does not care how you feel about something, what you do/did for a living, or even if you have lived you life completely crime free without so much as a traffic ticket. Government IS force, that's all it knows and will ever know. They have no desire to portray themselves as your best friends or even that they're the good guys because there's no incentive to.
 
Consider that every nickle and dime these people make come from your pocket. You NEVER said they could have it, you are told at gun point to just hand your earnings over, and if you fail to do so they simply lock you up. They do not work for this money, it is simply stolen from you. Even as they encroach more and more on your rights you are forced to pay the bill for it.
 
Why then should they feel compelled to win your hearts and minds when their income is guaranteed? They're not a business where they absolutely must treat you with respect and kindness to keep their doors open, there's absolutely no incentive to treat you with dignity or respect because that income will always be there. They may claim to be 'public servants' or whatever else makes them look good in the public eye, but you are enslaved to them, you work hard at your jobs everyday so you can line their pockets with money you never agreed to fork over to them.
 
My next statement is one that we should all consider with the most sincere amount of logic that we can.. In the event that we are living in a time where the government is busting down your doors, your Constitutional rights are an afterthought, they're holding people without trial and indefinately and practically everything required a government stamped liscence of approval, who do you think is going to be enforcing this?? This is not a conspiracy or paranoia, this has been the policy of the previous and current administrations and Obama has been on record for wishing to establish prolonged detention without trial.
 
Regardless of how much respect you have for the military, the police, and other government 'heroes', you must come to terms with the fact that they are nothing less than tools of the state, yes some will defect but the vast majority will not. You must understand that these very people that so many people adore so much will be the very same people you may find yourself protecting the lives and livelihoods of you and yours from.
 
I have said in the past that my family has encountered an extremely anti gun mentality from the local police and troopers in our area and I stand by that statement, I will also point out that if a government fears your gun, it fears not having control.. so by their very actions, their very behavior, they have shown us that they DO NOT trust us. Why then should we turn around and trust them?
 

---

Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 11:25:18 -0700
From: rai...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [AlaskaCitizensMilitia] Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

[Norm Olson]

Well said.   You don't have to know much about the Constitution to determine what is right and what is wrong.

Start with the Bill of Rights. The reason that the central government can violate the Bill of Rights is that

we the people allow it to happen.   Since these rights are inalienable they cannot be taken away.  The only

way that we lose them is that we freely give them up without a struggle.

 

Norm Olson

 

 

 

 

 ----- Original Message -----

--

[Norm Olson]

 

Amen, Ray.    We as THE PEOPLE have only two options.  Either we submit to the

growing tyranny (see my posting about Dual Tyranny) or we stand as free men and

women and try to resist the growing police state as best we can.

 

When you were warned to not become involved with the militia, you made your

choice and decided that you would.   History will record how important that act

of defiance was.   

[Norm Olson]

 

We've heard it over and over, "You can't condemn all because of the actions of a few."   I have repeatedly said

that I stand against tyranny, that is, the tyrants IN government, not the government itself.   I come down hard

of LEOs knowing that among them are some decent and honorable people.  In the case of the cops, because

of the reality of the Blue Code of Silence, I must condemn the bad cops for their actions and the rest for their

failure to police themselves.   How else will LE ever be perceived to be law abiding?    Justin suggests that

they don't have to present themselves as law abiding seeing that their loyalty to the tribe is far greater than

their loyalty to the Constitution.  I agree.   Then it must be that if a good cop remains silent to the abuses

of his comrades, he must be a coward of the highest degree, seeing that he has no honor, no loyalty to the higher

standard, and no loyalty to the people he is supposed to serve.    By the constant, and increasing abuses of LE,

I must logically conclude that there are only two groups of people in Law Enforcement, the thugs and the cowards.

   Ya sure, it's easy to beat down a civilian, but what about taking on the rest of tribe when they beat down 

a genuinely good cop.   Remain silent.  Get your paycheck.   Use extreme measures to keep silent.

A nice, neat package!  

   So, let's turn the tables and say, "You CAN and SHOULD condemn all because of the actions of a few,

especially when we're talking about Law Enforcement. 

 

Norm Olson

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Justin Nusunginya

To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

[Justin Nusunginya]

I should also add that a huge reason one officer may not whistleblow the bad behavior of another is based on their own livelihood. As a father of a toddler in my own life I can imagine the burden one must go through knowing that to become the whistleblower is to risk the living conditions of yourself and your family, it would seem to make the option of turning a blind eye and a deaf ear the most sensible one if the health of your family is at stake. This obviously makes the issue more complicated and not so black and white and perhaps a tragic one.
 
The almighty dollar is a very powerful force indeed, if not the most powerful force in the world. It can turn men who otherwise have principle and morals immeasurable into quiet and obedient subjects.
 
Where do we differ? Our path is voluntary, we don't get paid for being in the militia, we are often hated and scorned for having joined one, but we have accepted that. We believe what we're doing is moral and in fact the right thing to do. I don't believe anyone is here because they expected the opposite to be the case. It would take an individual of extreme courage and moral principle to stand up for and defend the rights of a society that treats them as though they are insignificant, crazy, or even 'the bad guys'.
 
They (LEOs) get a paycheck, we do not. The world isn't always pretty and it's almost never black and white, but we aren't here for pretty. Our very existence is to hopefully put off a worse world than the one we were born into. That LEO may not feel like he has a choice in whether or not he should do the right thing, but it is our duty to keep them in check, and our obligation to defend the helpless against their possible tyrannical abuses.
 
 

---

From: norma...@alaska.net
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [AlaskaCitizensMilitia] Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:59:52 -0800

[blake.s...@gmail.com]

'It would take an individual of extreme courage and moral principle to stand up for and defend the rights of a society that treats them as though they are insignificant, crazy, or even 'the bad guys.'

Justin in that sentence alone you just described the Marine Corps. Though we did get a pay check, there was often times where we felt as if we were the group that no one wanted to even admit existed unless life or liberty was at stake, then they would unlock the cage, point in the direction of what ever or who ever it was threatening our homeland, and would say get it done.

I think that if SHTF there will be a multitude of prior and current mitary members who wiill stand up for what they believe. It may take some time to let the dust settle and the mass confusion to dicipate, but I truely believe that it will not be just the "militia" that will be in the fight. The American people in general are a strong people and pull together when the time calls for that. I think that having an active militia is a good thing and I support the ideas of the constituion and will hold my oath till the end. I would assume that most everyone in the militia would say the same.

I think that what you siad about LE is true to extent, but they too often feel like they are only wanted or accepted when it benifits the needs of those who call them. There will always be bad apples in a bushel, I hope that we can use our gut when the time comes and weed out the bad apples where ever they may be. LE, Military, Militia, General public, DOD contractors, all people.

Just some thoughts on the issue.

On Oct 12, 2011 6:52pm, Justin Nusunginya <hal...@live.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I should also add that a huge reason one officer may not whistleblow the bad behavior of another is based on their own livelihood. As a father of a toddler in my own life I can imagine the burden one must go through knowing that to become the whistleblower is to risk the living conditions of yourself and your family, it would seem to make the option of turning a blind eye and a deaf ear the most sensible one if the health of your family is at stake. This obviously makes the issue more complicated and not so black and white and perhaps a tragic one.
>  
> The almighty dollar is a very powerful force indeed, if not the most powerful force in the world. It can turn men who otherwise have principle and morals immeasurable into quiet and obedient subjects.
>  
> Where do we differ? Our path is voluntary, we don't get paid for being in the militia, we are often hated and scorned for having joined one, but we have accepted that. We believe what we're doing is moral and in fact the right thing to do. I don't believe anyone is here because they expected the opposite to be the case. It would take an individual of extreme courage and moral principle to stand up for and defend the rights of a society that treats them as though they are insignificant, crazy, or even 'the bad guys'.
>  
> They (LEOs) get a paycheck, we do not. The world isn't always pretty and it's almost never black and white, but we aren't here for pretty. Our very existence is to hopefully put off a worse world than the one we were born into. That LEO may not feel like he has a choice in whether or not he should do the right thing, but it is our duty to keep them in check, and our obligation to defend the helpless against their possible tyrannical abuses.
>  
>  

[Norm Olson]

What is a mercenary?   Look it up.  It's someone who fights for pay rather than for a cause.

Does anyone really believe the cops are in it to uphold the Constitution and the oath that

many of them took when they joined the US Military?  

   Think about this:  If the fear of loss of employment keeps a cop quiet about the abuses

of his fellow cops, isn't he admitting that he is a paid mercenary giving more attention

to the paycheck than to the Constitutional protections of the Bill of Rights?  Isn't he saying

in fact that he is more concerned about his paycheck and job than about the rights of those

HE IS SUPPOSE TO PROTECT?

    That's why I say the only two groups of people in Law Enforcement are the thugs and

the cowards.   There are NONE who are honorable men/women of true integrity standing

as protectors of the people AGAINST the tyranny of central government power.

 

    Diogenes searched the streets of Athens for one honest man.  He never found one.

Society has painted Law Enforcement with a silvery brush.  Any criticism of LEOs

is interpreted as gross disrespect, and those cops who are ex-military expect a special

pass because they've served their country.    That being the case, next time you're

stopped and have a chance to speak to a LEO, ask him/her if he/she is honest and

a person of integrity.   Then proceed to ask about the Blue Code of Silence and the

protection of other cops who are wrongdoers BECAUSE the paycheck has more

influence on them than doing what is right.

 

As Justin point out below, the militia are unpaid and unfinanced.  We buy our own gear,

buy the fuel to travel in our own vehicles, etc.   We ask nothing from anyone but we

are prepared to defend our liberty and our property with our life.   I'd say there is a vast

difference between the militia and Law Enforcement.  

 

It's time we recognize it.

[ray southwell]

Justin,

You have expressed your thoughts clearly. I cannot disagree with you. I hope someone else can.

 

Our opinions are usually based on experience and observation. It is sad that a young man like yourself has given up on government because of the current state it is in.

 

Soon anarchy will be the dominant form of government. It is my hope, at that time; you will start to believe how government is a necessary evil that must be maintained with proper checks and balances.

 

Be patient, change is coming. We need you to rebuild.

Ray  

 

 

From: Justin Nusunginya <hal...@live.com>
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 12:07 PM

Subject: RE: [AlaskaCitizensMilitia] Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

Ray's example of nurses not recieiving the same treatment as police officers when dealing with unruly people is a good example of why most people do not trust law enforcement. They have become a gang, they are a gang. They look after themselves before anyone or anything else, I realized this even before I was aware of the Blue Code.
 
Take for example, a prostitute gets killed, the police will treat it as business as usual. Now, imagine a police officer/FBI agent gets killed, even if the investigators did not know this individual, the case is taken VERY seriously, just watch the fireworks fly. Law Enforcement has become a force of tribalism, they have repeatedly overstepped their bounds even when people knew their rights.
 
I have actually heard police officers whining about such things as the 'Miranda Law', and other conditions that limit their ability to do as they will.
 
They have also shifted into a hard line position of showing force, wearing full combat gear, assault weapons, riot shields and the like. They wish to indimiate us and have us fear them. But I will not be intimidated. I do not fear them so much as I distrust them. Here we are living in the 21st century and we still have government forces with a dark ages mentality. All they're doing is proving us right when we state that government only knows force.
 
Government does not negotiate, it does not level with you, it does not care how you feel about something, what you do/did for a living, or even if you have lived you life completely crime free without so much as a traffic ticket. Government IS force, that's all it knows and will ever know. They have no desire to portray themselves as your best friends or even that they're the good guys because there's no incentive to.
 
Consider that every nickle and dime these people make come from your pocket. You NEVER said they could have it, you are told at gun point to just hand your earnings over, and if you fail to do so they simply lock you up. They do not work for this money, it is simply stolen from you. Even as they encroach more and more on your rights you are forced to pay the bill for it.
 
Why then should they feel compelled to win your hearts and minds when their income is guaranteed? They're not a business where they absolutely must treat you with respect and kindness to keep their doors open, there's absolutely no incentive to treat you with dignity or respect because that income will always be there. They may claim to be 'public servants' or whatever else makes them look good in the public eye, but you are enslaved to them, you work hard at your jobs everyday so you can line their pockets with money you never agreed to fork over to them.
 
My next statement is one that we should all consider with the most sincere amount of logic that we can.. In the event that we are living in a time where the government is busting down your doors, your Constitutional rights are an afterthought, they're holding people without trial and indefinately and practically everything required a government stamped liscence of approval, who do you think is going to be enforcing this?? This is not a conspiracy or paranoia, this has been the policy of the previous and current administrations and Obama has been on record for wishing to establish prolonged detention without trial.
 
Regardless of how much respect you have for the military, the police, and other government 'heroes', you must come to terms with the fact that they are nothing less than tools of the state, yes some will defect but the vast majority will not. You must understand that these very people that so many people adore so much will be the very same people you may find yourself protecting the lives and livelihoods of you and yours from.
 
I have said in the past that my family has encountered an extremely anti gun mentality from the local police and troopers in our area and I stand by that statement, I will also point out that if a government fears your gun, it fears not having control.. so by their very actions, their very behavior, they have shown us that they DO NOT trust us. Why then should we turn around and trust them?
 

[Norm Olson]

 

I believe we need to do our best fighting now to show the difference between paid mercenaries

of the central government and true patriots.    There are millions of men and women who have

left the military service of their country.  Many of them live in cardboard boxes and in flop houses

and must struggle to get the help they rightly deserve.   While politicians are giving themselves

pay raises, the central federal government wants to cut benefits for service members.  Read

it for yourself,

 

http://militaryadvantage.military.com/2011/07/president-republicans-eye-23-billion-benefits-cut/

 

Someone once said that if you want to measure the quality of a country's government, simply

measure it's care for those who fought for it.

 

It is time now to stand behind our veterans.  Many veterans fill the ranks of the militia.  Those

militia members will not renounce the oath they took to protect and preserve the Constitution

of the United States against all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC!!!

 

So when ex-military law enforcement abuses you and denies you of your rights, do you count

them friends of the Constitution or enemies?    Just because they are ex-military does NOT

mean they still hold to the oath they took.   Indeed, when they or others in the LE tribe

violate the protections of the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and other amendments (articles of the Bill of Rights)

are they obeying their oath or denying it?

 

It cannot be both ways.  

 

Norm Olson

 

--

[Justin Nusunginya]

Undoubtedly some of you have heard of this group, for those that have not, read about the Oathkeepers. They are comprised of both former and current military and law enforcement and have my sincere respect.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_Keepers 

---

From: norma...@alaska.net
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: RE: [AlaskaCitizensMilitia] Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 21:13:41 -0800

[Mary Morgan]

I used to believe I would uphold anyone upholding the law.
No Longer.
There is a huge difference between some of those laws, and what the Constitution clearly says.ex, the laws to turn over your weapons for your own safety, vs, the God given Constitutional right to protect yourself.
I will uphold anyone who is standing firm with the Constitution.
 
I did a google search to see if I could find a cops oath of office.  I'm going to contact the police academy to see if they would send it to me.  The google search turned up an oath that merely says they will obey the directives of their higher authorities.  I could find nothing in the google searches where a cop swears to uphold the Constitution. 
 
I had a couple of local harassers stop me earlier this summer, they did so totally against the Constitution as well as many laws.  I refused to roll my window down until they threatened to break it with their clubs. (find that law!) then when they gave me their filthy ticket, my hand was over the window, the male started to draw his gun and demanded I put my hand back inside, I refused until he told me why I had to put my hand back inside, "because I was jeopardising their safety".... I can hardly wait to see how that one comes out in court!
 
Several of us have repeatedly gone to the doors of the court house and asked for Constitutional entry.  We have been denied every time.  As long as we give up our papers and person to an unreasonable search we can go in. We refuses.  One of those troopers doing door guard duty told us it is our duty to give up our rights.
We reminded him of our duty to overthrow an unconstitutional tyrannical government, he said he hopes he never has to stop us in his patrol car.  You know, that really sounded like a threat to me.
The hard part of going to court is that the court system is run by the British Accredited Registery.  They don't follow the Constitution.  I stood in a court room a few weeks back while they processed about 20 people.  I was flat disqusted.  With just the bail amounts alone they accumulated close to $32,000. That was just one day.  The court system is nothing more than a way to make money.  If truth was being established and followed, would you have to pay for truth?
 
I was feeling a whole lot of lost until I started meeting militia members.  Others who are like minded and courageous, who can think for themselves and who challenge the govts BS.
I cant help but wonder how my life would have been better if I had known militia members in my earlier years!
Mary
 

---

From: hal...@live.com
To: alaska-citi...@googlegroups.com

Subject: RE: [AlaskaCitizensMilitia] Do You Trust The Police To Respect Your Rights?

Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:15:51 -0800