[aida] Vision for Aida
Robert Calco
Robert Calco
Hi Bob,
You just inspired me to write down my vision and future plans for Aida,
so let me start with that:
Main *Aida vision* from the start is to extend the Smalltalk philosophy,
elegance, simplicity, power to the web applications as well while
preserving all those beauties of Smalltalk.
And to be on the *bleeding edge of web technology* with Smalltalk all
the time. Which we are. I'm most proud that initial architecture was set
good enough to be adaptable through all that time since 1996 and that we
are not stuck even now supporting the current HTML5 wave.
And here are the plans. Short-term, long-term? Well, we'll see :)
1. *Documentation*! It seems Aida core features are stable enough now
that we can document it and that this documentation will last for a
while without needing to update it constantly;
2. More *HTML5*! like FileSystem, DragDrop, Video and Audio etc etc;
3. More *realtime*, actually realtime anything, everywhere. WebSocket
standard is now de-facto complete and in a year all browsers will
support it. What I mean by realtime anything, everywhere? Any data
you show everywhere on your web page will be updated in realtime,
that is, immediately when data changes. And this will be switched on
by default!
4 More *client*! That is, more processing moved to web client with
Amber Smalltalk. Here the end goal is to partition your app in
runtime where to run. All on server as now, all on client (and
offline), or parts on server, parts on client. Client parts are
"emitted" to Amber Smalltalk and sent to a client for execution;
5. More *local updating* at the client. On server only data is
updated while all dependent views are refreshed locally on client;
6. *Automatic forms building* out of domain model, with help of
forthcoming AidaFields by Nicolas Petton;
7. More *relational domain model* support;
8. More *JavaScript libraries* supported as Aida Addons;
9. Aida as provider of *REST-full web services* accessible from other
web or mobile apps
10.*Cloud* support, Aida apps as both as client as service provider in
the cloud;
11.*Aida hosting*, both free and commercial.
Best regards
Janko
S, Robert Calco piše:
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Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
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Robert Calco
David Jacobs
> S, Robert Calco piše:
>
>> I think Aida needs a much better, much more in-depth tutorial, that
>> really highlights its best parts, and suggests where it's going to get
>> better over time.
>
> we have two articles:
>
> 1. Tutorial for a "traditional" Aida [1]
> 2. ToDo example in-depth description [2]
Indeed, Aida could use more tutorials.
> One solution would be to introduce another tutorial for a simple
> ajaxified web app, with widgets, realtime form validation etc. then
> continue with current one to shows the traditional Aida as well. and
> then ToDo example description.
>
> Any ideas, how to proceed?
I really like RoR tutorial http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ . Maybe a
translation to Aida? The beauty of that tutorial is also how it
explains the use of TDD (or BDD), git, ... , or how things work in
Ruby, not strictly only Rails.
But ofcourse, you need to decide what your audience for an Aida
tutorial is: experienced Smalltalk-users, newcomers, ...
Kind regards,
- david (new to Smalltalk & Aida)
Robert Calco
> I think Aida needs a much better, much more in-depth tutorial, that
> really highlights its best parts, and suggests where it's going to get
> better over time.
Ok, let we start improving documentation by improving a tutorial. So far
we have two articles:
1. Tutorial for a "traditional" Aida [1]
2. ToDo example in-depth description [2]
Tutorial has now at the bottom a link to the ToDo description.
Tutorial is probably not attractive enough for a first impression,
because it shows so called traditional web application in a sense that
there we have classical web pages and navigation between them
(graph-like control flow) but not more recent ajaxified style of
'single-page' web app development, which is shown in the ToDo example.
One solution would be to introduce another tutorial for a simple
ajaxified web app, with widgets, realtime form validation etc. then
continue with current one to shows the traditional Aida as well. and
then ToDo example description.
Any ideas, how to proceed?
--
Janko Mivšek
Aida/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si
Robert Calco
Hi guys,
Current tutorial seems to let the people develop an impression (as in
this Reddit comment [1]) of "Aida as being well-suited for writing
websites, and Seaside as being well-suited for writing web applications".
This is certaily not true, Aida is using mainly in business web
applications almost from the start. Well, from the start it was
developed for our main book publisher webshop, a public website
therefore, but since then it is with few exceptions used exclusively for
web apps.
So, we need to improve a tutorial to show its strengths for building web
apps ASAP. Specially that natural transition from a classical webpage
approach to so called Single-Page web application.
Really what Aida is trying to do (correct me if I'm wrong) is to let the developers actually define the semantics for themselves. A site is a root URL, an application is a chunk of functionality available at a site, and widgets are complex elements that are grouped for functional reuse within 'applications.' So, actually, Aida is trying not to impose very many constraints on how the developer organizes his/her design.
Best regards
Janko
[1]
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/pjggx/vision_and_plans_for_aida_smalltalk_web_framework/
Robert Calco
The other pain area that I don't think either framework deals with well yet is styling, layouts, look feel and JavaScript integration. If you're coming from a template based web development paradigm, nothing makes you feel woozier and less confident than the manner in which both frameworks deal with that. (Well, not counting the questions of RDMBS vs OODMS, in-memory persistence vs. ...etc.)At least, I have not found that aspect to be as intuitive as it could be.
- Bob
Nicholas Moore
I think a major challenge here is to address who a tutorial might be aimed at. If we had unlimited resources :-) we could have a number of different tutorial entry points, according to the intended users background and desire.
Given that Aida's tutorials need to develop, I suggest that we think in terms of use-cases, start simple and add features as we go. For instance we might decide to build an interactive, membership-based web application - something that would allow a user to log on, post messages, subscribe to RSS, download from a secure site etc.
If we identify several stages in the creation of such an app and build a tutorial around each stage, new users will be able to complete each stage while also seeing a greater context. More sophisticated aspects of Aida and Smalltalk could be introduced at each stage.
Is the intended audience experienced in Smalltalk, or web design/html or both, or neither? We might address this by designing the stages of the tutorials such that a person could select tutorials as appropriate to their background.
It seems to me that the design of the tutorial programme and it's content is the first item on the agenda.
My two-pennyworth.
Nicholas
On 13/02/12 11:09, Janko Mivšek wrote:
Hi guys, Current tutorial seems to let the people develop an impression (as in this Reddit comment [1]) of "Aida as being well-suited for writing websites, and Seaside as being well-suited for writing web applications". This is certaily not true, Aida is using mainly in business web applications almost from the start. Well, from the start it was developed for our main book publisher webshop, a public website therefore, but since then it is with few exceptions used exclusively for web apps. So, we need to improve a tutorial to show its strengths for building web apps ASAP. Specially that natural transition from a classical webpage approach to so called Single-Page web application. Best regards Janko [1] http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/pjggx/vision_and_plans_for_aida_smalltalk_web_framework/ S, Janko Mivšek piše:Hi David, Let me first welcome to the list and in the Aida world!
I really like RoR tutorial http://ruby.railstutorial.org/ . Maybe a translation to Aida? The beauty of that tutorial is also how it explains the use of TDD (or BDD), git, ... , or how things work in Ruby, not strictly only Rails. But ofcourse, you need to decide what your audience for an Aida tutorial is: experienced Smalltalk-users, newcomers, ...
Wow, this tutorial is a whole book! We certainly don't have resources for something like that but we can be inspired with the structure and ideas of that tutorial. Like how it is gradually improving your knowledge from chapter to chapter. So current tutorial is too short? What is your feeling when you finish it? Do you have some "aha" moment? Do you want more but you don't know where to proceed? Best regards Janko S, David Jacobs piše:
Nicholas Moore
Offray Vladimir Luna Cárdenas
Is nice to see this new year activity with the new year and is nice to
see this focus in documentation. Making the connection with the
greetings message from Janko apropos of the last year, 2011 was the year
I discover Aida and made the decision of learning web development. I
like a lot Aida, but because of the lack of comprehensive newbie
oriented documentation and my lack of knowledge to help filling the gaps
on this matter, my choice was to learn Seaside (which I like also, by
the way). Now I want to comment on the documentation matter a little
more, and if this mail gets too long (and is probable), I will try to
publish parts as supporting material in other places.
First a little of context: I'm a teacher of Information and
Communication Technologies (ICT) seminars on a postgraduate studies in
Science Didactics, in Bogotá - Colombia, South America. My students are
mostly school teachers without prior knowledge of programming and the
more we deal with the social aspects of digital culture, the more I see
the need of learning programming properly, despite of not being a
developer myself (I made some cognitive models using algorithms, but
that's not developing). So I'm in a context where I teach adult science
teachers about digital technology and I think that we all need to
program, specially in the context of web related technologies, because
that's a place where of political struggle is more evident (power
dynamics always related with technology since the mastering of the fire).
As Paulo Freire said, the problem teaching adults is that the usual
teaching for younger people is not enough related with "real life" for
them, and mostly they need get out of illiteracy for "real life"
reasons. Me and my students want to get out of our ICT illiteracy for
reasons like that and most of the examples in tutorials, including the
To Do example, are too artificial for us (ruby tutorial is a remarkable
exception, but we don't want recreate twitter). We want to create
something like a personal site, but connected with social networks.
Some, like Tantek Celik[1] have pioneered the idea and have call it DiSo
(for Distributed Social) making emphasis on microformats, but I want to
emphasize infrastructure and programming environments and that's where
Smalltalk environments excels others easily with its integration and
portability. We call the idea a "Digital Identity Router" (napkin first
draft here [2]). The idea is to build a kind of p2p social network where
you can connect with other people, using also monopoly privative ones
(Twitter, Facebook, etc) or the federates free open source ones
(Identica, Diaspora, etc), without depending _only_ on them for being
connected. They're kind of a second option. This is how it works:
You have a personal place where you put your data _first_, and then you
route the info where you want it to be _replicated_ (Twitter/identica,
facebook/Diaspora, flickr, and so on). The router can bring back the
interaction on that places (comments, stars, favs, and so on), so your
information _and_ the infrastructure behind it is at your control. If
you and your peers use the same model, you can be connected directly to
them by connecting the routers, without keep tracking on every contact
on the next new social network. Sensitive information can be available
only to your peers using the router and your site, so it never became
part of the Big Brother's data.
With this idea we're trying to get out of the sick merchandising
tendency of Web <Next ordinal number> dot "Ohhh", and instead of asking
ourselves about the next big thing in the next big "version" of the web,
we're trying to get an answer about how small can be the web?, can it
fit in your pocket? may be in a USB thumb drive, where you have (vía
Smalltalk/web2py) a multi-platform on-click server/IDE for a p2p social
architecture? May be it can work on/off-line, synchronizing this thumb
drives with some servers on the web and with other peers.
This is the project I would like to do with my students, using Aida or
Seaside. For the moment I have opted by the last because of the
extensive documentation and libraries, like JQuery Mobile, but we're
going to start small. First by some bookmarking site (like p2p delicious
in your pocket) then, connecting this with microblogging, like
identica/twitter, then a personal url shorter, a blog/wiki engine and
finally with some bigger media, like photo, audio and video. The
documentation will be primary done in Spanish first, but if this idea is
worth about how to remake/refocus the current documentation I would be
glad of sharing inquiries and experiences.
Cheers,
Offray
Notes:
======
[1] http://tantek.com/
[2] http://hackbo.co/home/webframeworks/ubakye/ubakyeZacatecas.png/
On 10/02/12 13:15, Janko Mivšek wrote:
> S, Robert Calco piše:
>
>> I think Aida needs a much better, much more in-depth tutorial, that
>> really highlights its best parts, and suggests where it's going to get
>> better over time.
>
> Ok, let we start improving documentation by improving a tutorial. So far
> we have two articles:
>
> 1. Tutorial for a "traditional" Aida [1]
> 2. ToDo example in-depth description [2]
>
> Tutorial has now at the bottom a link to the ToDo description.
>
> Tutorial is probably not attractive enough for a first impression,
> because it shows so called traditional web application in a sense that
> there we have classical web pages and navigation between them
> (graph-like control flow) but not more recent ajaxified style of
> 'single-page' web app development, which is shown in the ToDo example.
>
> One solution would be to introduce another tutorial for a simple
> ajaxified web app, with widgets, realtime form validation etc. then
> continue with current one to shows the traditional Aida as well. and
> then ToDo example description.
>
> Any ideas, how to proceed?
>
> Janko
>
> [1] http://www.aidaweb.si/tutorial.html
> [2] http://www.aidaweb.si/todo-description
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________