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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 1:02 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:02:43 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 1:02 am
Subject: Story Point & Working Hours

我们使用story point来评估product backlog item的大小,然后在sprint
planning的时候,会对选择的item估出工作所需要的working hours。不知道大家是否也是同样的做法。

我的问题是,你们有否把story point和working hours联系起来,如一个story point大致表示100 working
hours,如果有的话,为什么?有的话,给个您的SWOT分析。

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ifire zhang  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 1:37 am
From: "ifire zhang" <junlin.zhang.l...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:37:45 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 1:37 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Story Point & Working Hours

我觉得没有太多必要吧。一般把sprint
backlog分解为1天的粒度就OK了。然后,如果这个sprint里backlog过多,则去掉一些,少了则增加一些。

在08-4-9,徐毅 <kaverj...@gmail.com> 写道:


 
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Wang Lijie  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 1:43 am
From: "Wang Lijie" <wanglijie9...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:43:21 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 1:43 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

出于更好的计算工作量,我们直接使用的就是Working Hour, one task no more than 12 hours(2 days).

个人觉得,使用Story Point 就不应该再用working hours,二者还是有冲突的。

在08-4-9,ifire zhang <junlin.zhang.l...@gmail.com> 写道:


 
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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 1:43 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:43:49 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 1:43 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

这个联系不是我(Scrum Master)或者team
member在关注的,我也是机缘巧合知道有这样的一个比较或者关联。貌似主要是upper用来进行resource
planning的,即部门有多少人头,按照历史的story point消耗速率,和汇报的相关人员的capacity总和(working
hours)来个除法,得到个系数,用这个系数来评估当前的资源状况等,如是否有足够的人力来完成项目。

在08-4-9,ifire zhang <junlin.zhang.l...@gmail.com> 写道:

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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 1:49 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:49:02 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 1:49 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

在08-4-9,Wang Lijie <wanglijie9...@gmail.com> 写道:

> 出于更好的计算工作量,我们直接使用的就是Working Hour, one task no more than 12 hours(2 days).

> 个人觉得,使用Story Point 就不应该再用working hours,二者还是有冲突的。

想知道,你用working hour是用于sprint backlog么,还是用于product backlog,或者两者都是?

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Gmark  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 1:59 am
From: Gmark <mark....@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 13:59:34 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 1:59 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Story Point & Working Hours

我们团队用xplanner跟踪过一段时间,得到过
大概的评估小时->实际工作小时 比率.

On Apr 9, 2008, at 1:02 PM, 徐毅 wrote:


 
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Liang Qiao  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:00 am
From: "Liang Qiao" <sagittatius.q...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:00:49 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:00 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

统计数据在大方向上是没错的,但不要在细粒度上直接联系在一起,否则你会失去一些真正的东西"工作热情"。

个人认为,这些数据可以用于宏观上做预算,但不要直接再细分到人头。

2008/4/9 徐毅 <kaverj...@gmail.com>:


 
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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:06 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:06:24 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:06 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

可以的话能否share下这方面的经验,这个比率你们怎么用它,然后有啥好处啊

在08-4-9,Gmark <mark....@gmail.com> 写道:

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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:09 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:09:28 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:09 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

说得没错。

我关注的重点是,story point更多的是讲求相对大小,和working
hour这种叫什么。。客观标准(?)的度量标准,究竟有没有必要或者有没有意义牵连到一起?这方面各位能否提供些意见。

在08-4-9,Liang Qiao <sagittatius.q...@gmail.com> 写道:

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Liang Qiao  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:09 am
From: "Liang Qiao" <sagittatius.q...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:09:30 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:09 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

请站在公司财务或者部门经理的角度,去试着做下一年的预算,你就知道你想要什么数据了。但这些数据用在个体上,显然不适用。

2008/4/9 徐毅 <kaverj...@gmail.com>:


 
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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:20 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:20:05 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:20 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

不好意思,从没接触过预算,这方面没经验。确实不知道这个"评估小时->实际工作小时 比率"如何影响到年度的预算。

在08-4-9,Liang Qiao <sagittatius.q...@gmail.com> 写道:

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blackanger  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:24 am
From: blackanger <blackange...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:24:29 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:24 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Story Point & Working Hours
不太会SWOT分析法,简单说下我们的做法。

可能是因为还不太会应用story point, 我们现在是把story point和working
hour挂钩的。也就是说,一个story point代表 1 hour, 然后根据实际花费hours
来评估团队生产力的值。 这样在一个迭代以后,可以评估团队的生产力。帮助计
算团队不断的进化的程度。

请各位同学指教。


 
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Jun Liu  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:28 am
From: "Jun Liu" <junli...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:28:09 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:28 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

我觉得牵连在一起也不准确。因为story point/working hours在不同项目不一定是等比的。

2008/4/9 徐毅 <kaverj...@gmail.com>:


 
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blackanger  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:38 am
From: blackanger <blackange...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:38:28 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:38 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours
预估小时和实际工作的比率,就是团队的生产力吧 ? 我的理解有错没有,请指
正。


 
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Wang Lijie  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:38 am
From: "Wang Lijie" <wanglijie9...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:38:35 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:38 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

两者都是,但是Product Backlog不会很精确,都是一个粗略值

在08-4-9,徐毅 <kaverj...@gmail.com> 写道:


 
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Jun Liu  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:43 am
From: "Jun Liu" <junli...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:43:49 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:43 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

Product Backlog比较粗略,只会用到story point,用sales部门提出的business value/story
point来作为优先级的依据之一。

2008/4/9 Wang Lijie <wanglijie9...@gmail.com>:


 
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Wang Lijie  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 2:43 am
From: "Wang Lijie" <wanglijie9...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 14:43:55 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 2:43 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

做预算的话,最好还是小时了!

在08-4-9,Liang Qiao <sagittatius.q...@gmail.com> 写道:


 
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Gmark  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 3:54 am
From: Gmark <mark....@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 15:54:09 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 3:54 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours
基本上是这样.
其实我觉得跟徐毅说的story point是一个意思.假设2个人.

                     估算       实际         实际工作小时数
迭代1          80          85             120
迭代2          60          56             100
迭代3          45          50             80

类似意思,经过几个迭代以后就能大概知道这个团队或
者其中某个人的velocity了,比如以上数据,这个团队一周
(80个working hour)能完成45个估算小时.
只是很粗略的方法.

On Apr 9, 2008, at 2:38 PM, blackanger wrote:


 
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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 4:04 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 16:04:45 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 4:04 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

你这里的"估算小时"和我所言的story
point所想要起到的作用是一样的。不过我认为你这里,"估算小时"和"实际小时"两个词汇都用到"小时"这个词汇,小时可以是一个客观的度量标准,所以,从 粗颗粒角度衡量项目进度和细到sprint
backlog中某个task的大小,两个标准容易引起误解诶。。

感觉应该很容易把估算小时的小时当作是实际的小时,也即60分钟,而其实从你这里的统计看来,应该是80/45=1.78个小时。不如更换为另一个概念,比如说 story
point。

在08-4-9,Gmark <mark....@gmail.com> 写道:

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blackanger  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 4:32 am
From: blackanger <blackange...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 16:32:43 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 4:32 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours
老徐可否把你如何估算sotry points用实际数据或者说具体的虚拟数据拿出来说明
一下呢 ?


 
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徐毅  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 5:14 am
From: "徐毅" <kaverj...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 17:14:35 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 5:14 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

首先,我没有阅读过敏捷估计那本书。
其次,是所经历的一些grooming session得到的经验,然后自己思考消化的。参加过Bas主导的,也参加过Craig主导的。

比如说有一个product
backlog,内有若干item。在场的会大概扫描一下list,然后挑选一个size居中的item出来,分析其技术难度,及所需effort等,然后设为 3个story
point大小,为方便,称此item为"标杆item"。之后针对其他的item进行评估,以相比前面的"标杆item"的技术难度等,估出相对大小,比如i tem
b肯定比标杆item大,但肯定不到两倍那么多的effort,然后可以用planning
poker的方式,得出一个值,比如说5.然后循环评估其他item。

在sprint planning的时候,也许这个item b,通过team的详细分析,由sprint
backlog得到的数据发现,此item完成所需要的人工为500人.小时。

上面是我的所见,或实际数据。然后下面是我的思考:

将story point和working hours联系起来究竟是否有用呢?我看未必。在某个sprint
planning中,估计出需要完成任务的工作时间,受人员能力,工作环境,及其他相关因素的影响。而至少我们的情况是团队成员或多或少总会变化,这就导致多个 sprint中,team的整体能力其实是不等的。换个角度讲,即使team成员不变,其能力也是变化的,包括环境,和当时所能获取的资源,都会影响团队完成任 务所需要的时间。也就意味着,即使是同一个item,换在不同的sprint,可能就会有不同的工作时间估计值,更不要说换给不同的team。

在08-4-9,blackanger <blackange...@gmail.com> 写道:

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Anchuan Qian  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 8:19 am
From: "Anchuan Qian" <qiananch...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 20:19:11 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 8:19 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

"即使是同一个item,换在不同的sprint ,可能就会有不同的工作时间估计值"

既然是估算,我有两个问题:
1、估算的目的是什么?
2、估算的标准和单位是什么?

1、不可能每个人的目的都一样。我们的目的是更清楚的了解自己的开发能力和工作进度,然后科学的做下一步的计划,更好的控制项目。

2、既然是这样,那么估算就一定要客观和一致。而且毫无疑问,前提是在目前的团队和项目中进行(或者同等的团队和项目)。否则去比较这些数据就没有任何意义了。 下面是我用过的两种方式:

一、功能点数。比如说:1、2、5、8、16,这是按照一个功能的复杂度(一般是一张卡片,即User
Story)的大小给值。最重要的就是要保持一致,后面的评估,都是参照前面的相似或类似的功能。

难点就是Story的粒度,和评估时候保持一致。

二、真实天数。我们现在就用这个,并且用Mingle管理项目,很科学。在做计划的时候,开发者会评估每张Story的大小(真实天);然后开发者在开始开发之 前,会再评估一下Story的大小;然后Mingle也会记录一个开发者完成这张Story花费的真实时间(可以根据这些数据自动生成你需要的报表)。而且,真 正开发时间特别有价值,它不仅是最好的参考,还可以用来推算其它方面的成本。

On 09/04/2008, 徐毅 <kaverj...@gmail.com> wrote:


 
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Liang Qiao  
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 More options Apr 9 2008, 9:28 am
From: "Liang Qiao" <sagittatius.q...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2008 21:28:52 +0800
Local: Wed, Apr 9 2008 9:28 am
Subject: Re: [agilechina] Re: Story Point & Working Hours

真实天数很好,但这个数据的有效性受多方面因素的影响。

最大的因素就是:公司是否用它来衡量每个人的绩效,做考评。

这不仅仅是agile遇到的问题,CMMI也有同样的问题。

曾做过某个使用快速迭代的项目,公司想用它story point来考评我们团队成员的绩效,我的回答是可以记录,以便为公司积累数据,但不做为个人绩效考评。

2008/4/9 Anchuan Qian <qiananch...@gmail.com>:


 
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