New Outsourcing Destination (Good and Bad News for Bangladesh)
srayhan
published by CIO magazine 25 most dangerous cities for offshore
outsourcing. The good news is that Dhaka was not on the list.
http://www.cio.com/article/482404/The_25_Most_Dangerous_Cities_for_Offshore_Outsourcing.
Now the bad news. There was a follow on article in the same magazine
about 14 emerging offshore outsourcing markets. We did not make the
list.
Recently, there was another article in the, yes, you guessed it right,
same magazine on offshore outsourcing hotspots to watch out for in
2010. We guessed it right, we are still missing from the list. Well
not a surprise there. We could not have done anything that would have
made a difference between April and December. But, I am not sure we
have done anything that would make any difference in next couple
years.
http://www.cio.com/article/511522/6_Offshore_Outsourcing_Hot_Spots_for_2010?page=1
It is unfortunate that we are still struggling to make any of such
lists. This means we are not in the radar of anyone that is looking to
offshore. That creates a huge barrier to entry for all of us
individually. Obviously what we have been doing is not working. If we
continue to do more of the same, we will be in the same boat (which is
not going anywhere). In a few years, we will say even Vietnam is way
ahead of us and we have to wait for the 3rd wave of offshoring (don't
know when that would happen). We all know a shift in the offshore
outsourcing market is taking place in recent years. Companies are
looking for alternative destination for offshore outsourcing. This is
our chance of a lifetime. We should not let it pass by like we did for
internet connection back in early 90s'.
Let's make it a point in 2010 that we will change things around so
that we can say by 2011, we are on the emerging destination for
offshore outsourcing. Please refer to my article on how we could
proceed for a starter-
http://www.comjagat.com/home/articles/morearticles/4240
Also I would encourage you to read this article published on NASSCOM
(India's BASIS, only better...:-) no pun intended).
http://blog.nasscom.in/emerge/2008/06/04/smes-is-this-the-end-of-the-plain-vanilla-outsourcing/
Can we do that? What do you guys think?
Fahim Mashroor
Thanks for sharing the article. I have forwarded the article to a
number of persons including some BASIS people.
This ranking issue is one of the issue I have been constantly trying
to bring focus of our policy makers. Like you I am also frustrated
about the non-listing of BD in different International Outsourcing/
Offshoring country ranking. Last year, I saw one outsourcing ranking
of A.T. Kearney (Global Management Consultants), one of the most
referred raking used by corporate strategists. Unfortunately, that
list does not include BD within top 50 (though there are some
countries from Africa who are far behind than BD in all respects
including HR, Infra, Language). Recently, GLOBAL services and Tholons
has published another list on 50 emerging outsourcing cities and BD is
also not included (http://microsites.globalservicesmedia.com/research/
show.section.asp?id=65).
However, for people like you who would want to highlight Bangladesh's
capability to outside clients can use some other index to convince
them. For example, I suggest you to use one very interesting stats
that I have recently found at alexa.com (this is the site which is
used for web traffic monitoring worldwide). I will upload one
screenshot in the group where you can find out that in 2 of the most
used free-lancing sites (rentacoder.com and getafreelancer.com) ,
users/professionals from Bangladesh are within top 3/4. Right after
USA and India. It gives some indication about the capability and
interest of wide range of professioanals in countries who are
interested about outsourcing jobs. Interestingly, 7% of the regular
users of getafreelancer.com comes from BD (3rd among the whole
world)!!!
Take care.
Fahim
On Jan 12, 1:29 am, srayhan <sray...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK, let me start with the good news first. Early 2009 an article was
> published by CIO magazine 25 most dangerous cities for offshore
> outsourcing. The good news is that Dhaka was not on the list.
>
> http://www.cio.com/article/482404/The_25_Most_Dangerous_Cities_for_Of....
>
> Now the bad news. There was a follow on article in the same magazine
> about 14 emerging offshore outsourcing markets. We did not make the
> list.
>
> http://www.cio.com/article/490173/14_Emerging_Offshore_Outsourcing_Ma...
>
> Recently, there was another article in the, yes, you guessed it right,
> same magazine on offshore outsourcing hotspots to watch out for in
> 2010. We guessed it right, we are still missing from the list. Well
> not a surprise there. We could not have done anything that would have
> made a difference between April and December. But, I am not sure we
> have done anything that would make any difference in next couple
> years.
>
> http://www.cio.com/article/511522/6_Offshore_Outsourcing_Hot_Spots_fo...
>
> It is unfortunate that we are still struggling to make any of such
> lists. This means we are not in the radar of anyone that is looking to
> offshore. That creates a huge barrier to entry for all of us
> individually. Obviously what we have been doing is not working. If we
> continue to do more of the same, we will be in the same boat (which is
> not going anywhere). In a few years, we will say even Vietnam is way
> ahead of us and we have to wait for the 3rd wave of offshoring (don't
> know when that would happen). We all know a shift in the offshore
> outsourcing market is taking place in recent years. Companies are
> looking for alternative destination for offshore outsourcing. This is
> our chance of a lifetime. We should not let it pass by like we did for
> internet connection back in early 90s'.
>
> Let's make it a point in 2010 that we will change things around so
> that we can say by 2011, we are on the emerging destination for
> offshore outsourcing. Please refer to my article on how we could
> proceed for a starter-http://www.comjagat.com/home/articles/morearticles/4240
>
> Also I would encourage you to read this article published on NASSCOM
> (India's BASIS, only better...:-) no pun intended).http://blog.nasscom.in/emerge/2008/06/04/smes-is-this-the-end-of-the-...
Tim Abbott
Since I'm not Bengali and hopefully not biased, let's put 2 and 2
together to make 4. I'm not sure of the African countries you are
referring to in regards to language and infrastructure but outside of
Dhaka, I'm not sure there's much infrastructure that BD has. Also,
VOIP is illegal in BD which doesn't bode well for outsourcing or
communication. Additionally, as I have experienced, transportation
systems for late night work isn't in place and they would certainly
need to be if you are supporting western clients. I could go on, but
I won't because I'm not trying to bash the place that I want to see
improve since I've invested there. However, we shouldn't have
blinders on and groups such as this will help not hinder but if you
are patient and instead of looking for a solution for the gov't,
produce great work and talk about it, over time the perception will
change.
You did however point out the essential issue. Those freelance sites
are for the small shops looking to save money on development.
However, CIO magazine, A.T. Kearney, Global Services, and Tholons I'm
sure don't care about those sites and are looking for LARGE ENTERPRISE
outsourcing solutions. Pune and Colombo were on the unsafe list and
have huge outsourcing companies and multinationals placed there. As I
said when I was there, BD needs to adopt an Agile approach and not get
too worried about lists like these because they don't look at or
consider Agile companies, just slow behemoths.
At any rate, it may be because I'm American that I always believe the
best get noticed and the worst fall over. If we do great work, we'll
get noticed, I can assure you. For example, one of the sites we do
all the development and design for with our BD team was just in the
3rd largest newspaaper in the Kingdom. You can see the link here:
http://www.alriyadh.com/2010/01/11/article488905.html
Just do great work, talk about it, contribute to the community, and
you generally won't care about lists other than those that talk about
great places to work and Agile development hotspots or Agile
outsourcing. Every new or midsize dev shop in the US keeps saying
they want to go Agile (often abusing the term) so hit the big guys
where it hurts, NOT TRYING TO COPY THEM. If you take a startup
mentality to the problem, make your teams think like startups, make
your messaging more like a startup, you'll look more like a country
about to disrupt the outsourcing landscape and people will understand
if you make small mistakes.
--
Best Regards,
Tim Abbott
Chief Architect
tekSymmetry Interactive
t...@teksymmetry.com
www.teksymmetry.com
KSA - (+966).548182186
USA - (+1).678.682.9864
Fax - (+1).877.482.9533
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srayhan
work and companies that go there for sourcing are not what companies
with some significant work go. It is good for our developers to get
familiar with software work and dealing with customers, but it does
not give nowhere near the same experience or require skills you would
need to do work for any company (of all sizes) with a defined budget
for IT. If we are serious about being a player in this market, we
gotta get our acts together.
Tim, you are correct in saying that we need to focus on doing great
work and eventually people will notice. However, there are many things
(mostly internal, and you touched on some those issues) in our way to
do that. At the same time, part of it requires great marketing and
relationship building with the industry. In other words, we need to do
everything to "prime the engine" to a point- the tipping point where
it gets its own life. I think we are there when it comes to
freelancing.
First step to all these is to shake up the system and re-imagine by
asking a simple question- "what would we all do if we started from
scratch and did not have any thing in place?"
I look forward to that day when everyone talks about Bangladesh in the
same breath as they do about Vietnam, Philippines, and Eastern Europe.
Better yet, industry analysts use Bangladesh as an example to
follow...:-)
Fahim Mashroor
I think I could not successfully put my point in my last mail (though
the discussion that followed has been really interesting and helpful,
both in terms of operational as well as strategic aspect).
I know and believe that freelancing site jobs can in no way work as
capability proxy for serious enterprise level software jobs. But the
point I wanted to make was- the huge number of BD professionals
participating as the leading freelancing sites surely demonstrates
that the country has a potential youth talent pool that, if properly
nurtured, can turn the nation into a leading (or alternative)
outsourcing choice for lot of western countries where English is the
main/second language. I know that when the consulting companies rank
different countries they not only make the ranking only on surface
numbers, but also on the 'below the ground' numbers. By participating
in huge number at the freelancing sites, our young IT talents have
given a message to the outside clients that talent exists in numbers
(number is important, particularly for big companies who would like to
recruit 1,000+ resources as one go when they open up any ODC). Both of
you are right about the fact that these people need to be exposed to
high-end projects.
I know that a significant percentage of software programmers working
in different IT companies do regular works in their free time (from
home). There is an interesting dilemma on this issue. Management of
some companies encourage that on the point that this would help them
in sharpening their skill (both technical or individual client
management). Some companies discourage that by policy. I would like to
know the opinions of others in this regard.
Regarding your point that the companies should focus more on doing
great things on their own- surely it should. This is a 'Micro' or
'Individual Entrepreneurial' aspect of the whole strategy. But on
'macro' or 'country strategy' side (mainly to be dealt by Govt. or
policy makers) we need to be serious and sensitive about the rankings/
lists because there is a 'herd' mentality even among the top
outsourcing companies in the West. Most often, their decision is
guided by 'country perception' rather 'individual company' perception
(there are exceptions obviously, otherwise why would we have so many
good offshore set-ups currently running in the country). So, I think
that while our entreprenurs should focus heavily on buidling great
companies and workplace, the policy makers and strategists should try
seriously market on whatever positive data or success we have and
ensure that Bangaldesh is rightly listed at those lists/rankings.
Take care.
Fahim
> > > .- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
srayhan
I understand what you are saying about freelancers. Maybe we could
show that data as a proxy for potential talent pool. Freelancing is
good for students to get a feel for what the industry is like.
However, they would still lack the understanding of the framework and
structure needed to work on a comprehensive projects (even for small
and mid size businesses). There are so many dimensions to working on
such projects you just don't get exposed to. I am not even talking
about seizable enterprise systems.
In terms setting up a large ODC of even 100+, I don't think we have
that supply of experienced folks. It is not just headcount that is
needed to setup such a shop. We would need a strategic plan in place
at the industry level to enable that.
The other good point you brought about allowing developers do
freelancing on the side requires a separate thread of discussion in
itself...:-) I am in favor either or or. At Code71, it is our strict
policy of not allowing free lancing on the side. I have a few reasons
for that,
1) Conflict of interests. Software development is a different type of
work ( any creative work for that matter). You cannot just switch on
and off between two different projects even within the same company.
When a developer works on a side project, it would certainly take his
mind share from his project on the day job. I see that a conflict of
interests. I know it will impact the day project, which is not
acceptable. If you have the time and energy to work on a side project,
I would rather see you spend that time on your day project...:-)
2) Legal perspective. When you work for a company, you are
representing that company. We sign NDA with our clients. If a
developer is listed on a freelancing site, I am not sure what he/she
is sharing as a way to showcase his/her experience. There could be a
chance to misinterpret who is involved in the project, the individual
or the company that he works for. It may not be a big issue for a
company that is not present in the USA. But it is a potential avenue
for lawsuit for companies like ours.
The way I see how freelancing helping countries like ours is that it
is an initial breeding ground for young (during student life
primarily) developers to get a taste of professional life. Building a
service company requires years of experience working for other
companies (either the companies you would provide services to, or
companies that have been providing services to these companies). Only
then you would understand the context. I cannot see how a person
without that experience can build a successful IT services company.
There might be exceptions.
Good discussion. I wish policy makers were participating here on the
forum. I guess that is too much to ask or the technology has not
reached them yet...:-)
Thanks,
Syed H. Rayhan
company: http://www.code71.com
product: http://www.ScrumPad.com
blog: http://blog.syedrayhan.com
twitter:http://twitter.com/srayhan
M:+1-804-306-5111
"Excellence is not an act, but a habit"
--Aristotle
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nhm tanveer hossain khan (hasan)
i saw several freelancers, most of them working on renowned
freelancing sites.
actually it is fun thing for them to get quick money. because money is
sweet and tasty.
personally i've one issue, guys those who get involved in freelancing
they tend
to concentrate only on earning not improving their software
engineering practice,
thus it creates huge knowledge gap.
if you ask few of your known people you might get the scenario.
freelancer used to work under high client pressure and with in very
limited time,
usually they don't care how to produce better code or how to solve
problem in better way
rather they only focus on earning money. (we call it জোর তালি সলিউশন)
so whenever they get recruited in any company because of their huge
portfolio (they used to have big portfolio),
company used to get in trouble. usually most of them are not team
player (since they used to work alone and work fast).
software development always is a team work, it's not impossible to
build a software by a single person,
but to build the better one you need a team.
i agree with sayed bhai's opinion, company should not encourage their
talent to focus on split projects (personal and official).
personally i'd suggest more internship model, our companies should
take more inter student, involve them in real project.
train them, encourage them and help them to see the bigger picture.
best wishes :)_)
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Mahbub
BD programmers are doing freelancing. There're Pros and Cons of
Freelancing and at the same time working for a company.
Let's take a look at the salary of a fresh programmer in BD. It
averages below 20K. Some exceptional companies offer more than 25-30K.
And in the current situation, it's hard for people to manage living
with that amount. So people do freelancing to reach to a living
standard and not only to EARN more money.
From a manager's perspective, hardly anyone would want his people to
work on outsourcing projects. BUT i know freelancers where they raised
their overall standards by freelancing. I can quote a lot of renowned
companies ( I took a lot of interviews) in BD who don't even give room
to breath. As a result, the programmers of most of the companies don't
get to practice latest tools & technologies and they blame their PMs
for this. The skillsets of those programmers stay within the scope of
the project only. Most PHP programmers don't know what's even the
current Stable Release. That hurts.
It's true that freelancing can disrupt attention from the job but it
can raise the standards because he has to manage a good number of
things by himself. Some leadership can pop out for sure. And it's also
true that complex projects are hardly posted on freelancing sites
where people have to play with scalability and other things. But more
and more people coming into the freelancing and earning their living
is not a BAD trend i would say. If we discourage of make a barrier on
this, the supply of professionals will likely to go down. We all know
that there's a crisis of "very good programmers" in Market. If i need
100 quality programmers and i'm ready to give 50K + , i simply can't
get them. The market fails to supply such amount of professionals.
It's because students were driven to other disciplines than studying
computer science for last 4-5 years ( Major reason is the telecom
craze). And now, a huge Gap is created.
So we have to come to a balance. Neither we can strictly discourage
freelancing nor we should too much appreciate it. All we need is to
raise our standards of doing things and make ourselves visible more on
the WWW. I've come across many Indian programmers, and they are not
from a different planet. In fact i found our avg standard better than
theirs in lot of cases. They can market themselves more than we can
because of good communication skills. And they have some good people
who are guiding a big herd. We really need to become some of those
guiding people.
And yes, we need to develop a culture where IT can run 24/7. We're
trying to start a night shift but there're just too many obstacles.
The security, transportation, food - all are against the demand when
thinking of a night shift which can work closely with US working hour.
Let's some of us take some risks of doing that instead of waiting for
some magic from Govt.
Thanks
M. Mahbubur Rahman
On Jan 15, 12:52 am, "nhm tanveer hossain khan (hasan)"
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Tim Abbott
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