> I have just added a page to the ADS wiki (http://sites.google.com/site/
> agileskillsprojectwiki/certification/agile-skill-badge) proposing a
> badge mechanism which I believe has the potential to overcome those
> concerns. Please take a look at it, and let me know if you think I'm
> on the right track, or if I'm completely off course.
I like the idea and prefer it to agileshout, which seems to me to be
focused on giving popular answers to questions, while we are, I
imagine, about skills.
I'm not sure about the expiration logic. On the one hand, we do want
people to keep their hand in. On the other hand, most of these
skills do not decline substantially over time (though one can of
course become rusty). On the gripping hand, people will have a
limited time to spend earning badges, and will probably only be
interested for a while. A Boy Scout badge is, as far as I know,
evidence of something done, and does not expire. Ours might be the
same.
Or I could be wrong. In any case, I like the idea ...
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Fear is the mindkiller. --Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear
The specifics seem a little fiddly, to me. Setting up a point system
that does what you want is terribly difficult. I don't think it's
possible to come up with a set of rules that will work. Human judgment
is essential.
Assuming that "the community" will have any sort of consistency is a bad
assumption, I think. And "the community" needs to be bootstrapped somehow.
The Boy Scouts use a "merit badge counselor" who ensures that the
requirements have been met. (See
http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Computers for example
requirements.) The quality of such counselors varies tremendously.
Also, it's very difficult to make something work with numbers of
nominations. Many people have relatively little opportunity to share
what they can do in a meaningful way to the people who could make the
nominations. If they already work in a company with a lot of badge
holders, they probably don't need the badge. If they're working to get
out of a non-agile company, they won't have the contacts.
These remarks aren't meant to discourage you. I hope you'll pursue
refining these ideas.
I've already started distributing an Agile Merit Badge
(http://idiacomputing.com/images/AgileMeritBadge.jpg) The requirements
are a bit subjective, and mostly indicate going out of the way to
participate in an Agile learning experience where I've been a part. Not
a high hurdle, but worth of recognition in my opinion.
- George
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
* George Dinwiddie * http://blog.gdinwiddie.com
Software Development http://www.idiacomputing.com
Consultant and Coach http://www.agilemaryland.org
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps I have been concentrating too much on the "how" when I should
have been thinking about the "what".
What specific Agile-related skills should we reward people for demonstrating?
Thanks for the feedback.
Regards,
Richard
> or even
> dated (and renewable, e.g., Pair Programming 2003)--it would be clear to a
> reader who may be getting rusty or not on what skills--or open the door to a
> conversation at interview time... "hmm, I see you did the Pair Programming
> badge 7 years ago--have you paired since?"
Lovely. A bit hard, perhaps, to have people always say "I hold the
Agile Developer Skills badge Pair Programming 2003" but if it were
part of the understood culture that it was the thing to do, it could
work rather nicely. People would know to do it, and people would
know to ask.
And one good answer might be "I pair program every day. I see no
particular reason to update the badge."
Nifty idea. And welcome back.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
The "rules" are ways of thinking, not ways to avoid thinking.
> Thanks again for your comments so far. Does this seem closer to what
> we want (and a more workable option)?
Richard, this is very nice IMO. I think it is pretty workable, and I
like that it is mostly self-sustaining as it grows.
I've started my art / web person thinking about making badges, which
I envision as coming in sticker form and a graphics file you can put
on your web site. I'm pretty confident that we can cover the cost of
making them one way or another.
I like that it's mostly nomination-based. One thing that I was
thinking was that the nominated person should justify their
receiving the badge, with a brief writeup describing why they
deserve it.
My original thoughts weren't quite so peer-oriented as this, and I
was thinking of a small cadre of reviewers who could look at things.
I was going to nominate myself and some other members of the
community to do it. There is, of course, the concern that the cadre
might become a cabal. Discuss?
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Ron Jeffries, speaking for Boskone ... Out.
--
________________________________________________________________
Much of the discussion in the group is predicated on several resources summarized on the wiki at http://www.agileskillsproject.org Please review this regularly. To request editing permissions for the wiki, send an email to either of these gmail addresses: richardjfoster or redhotglass .
________________________________________________________________
You received this message because you are subscribed to
the "Agile Developer Skills" group.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
agile-developer-s...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/agile-developer-skills?hl=en?hl=en
Does this seem closer to what we want (and a more workable option)?
If we see a need to recognize a particular skill, then a badge will be created for it.
Initially, it seems likely that a badge should be created for each of
the major Agile Pillars.
I believe it is much more about being aware that a practice gives you
value than "act like this and get a badge in reaction".
Looking at this, it would be based on a self evaluation.
If not, should we have metrics?
How many dojos I have to attend? Should I have to play/pair? Should I
prepare a kata? In how many different programming languages?
I don't think we need metrics.
I believe we need people who value the same things an Agile Community
believes. So we are looking for people with the same identity.
They need to understand why, not what or how a practice is played.
> --
> ________________________________________________________________
>
> Much of the discussion in the group is predicated on several resources
> summarized on the wiki at http://www.agileskillsproject.org Please review
> this regularly. To request editing permissions for the wiki, send an email
> to either of these gmail addresses: richardjfoster or redhotglass .
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> You received this message because you are subscribed to
> the "Agile Developer Skills" group.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> agile-developer-s...@googlegroups.com
>
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/agile-developer-skills?hl=en?hl=en
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Regards,
Daniel Wildt
http://danielwildt.com
> Yet I don't see how to evaluate an entire pillar-- what is a Gold-level
> Badge in Technical Excellence? Is there a pre-requisite for passing other
> badges, or is it that we just nominate a few people and let them figure it
> out from there? Is a pillar-level badge equivalent to becoming an Eagle
> Scout (sorry for the cultural reference--um, Eagle Scouts have earned a
> large number of badges and met certain requirements)?
I don't see that one either. On the other hand, it might be as
simple as acquiring all or 90 percent of the set of technical
badges. I'd like to see the community involved in defining the
criteria, and I'd be inclined to start with some lower level ones.
Would the current readership think that a Bronze might be had for
reading a TDD book, and a Silver for an article or video showing the
candidate's TDD session building something small?
Maybe if we try to define a few, something good will happen ...
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Design is the thinking one does before, during, and after
implementation. It works best for me with a little up front, most of
it during implementation, and very little after it's too late.
On Monday, August 2, 2010, at 5:35:33 AM, you wrote:
> I like that clean code green band.
> I believe it is much more about being aware that a practice gives you
> value than "act like this and get a badge in reaction".
> Looking at this, it would be based on a self evaluation.
> If not, should we have metrics?
> How many dojos I have to attend? Should I have to play/pair? Should I
> prepare a kata? In how many different programming languages?
> I don't think we need metrics.
> I believe we need people who value the same things an Agile Community
> believes. So we are looking for people with the same identity.
> They need to understand why, not what or how a practice is played.
So are you saying that anyone who thinks they deserve a Skill Badge
can just declare it and get one? If not, how would you have us
decide?
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Mentor/be mentored: the Agile Skills Project
http://www.agileskillsproject.com/
http://sites.google.com/site/agileskillsprojectwiki/
On 8/2/10 5:35 AM, Daniel Wildt wrote:
> I like that clean code green band.
>
> I believe it is much more about being aware that a practice gives you
> value than "act like this and get a badge in reaction".
This is an interesting observation. While much of the Agile Skill Badge
discussion has focused on external verification of an individual's
skills, you're quite right that the simple fact of a person thinking the
skill is valuable has considerable value, itself.
I certainly would hate to see the Agile Skill Badge become sought after
only by collectors who compete to own more than others. As soon as the
token of skill becomes the goal, instead of the skill itself, it loses
its value. Perhaps by reducing the control around receiving a badge,
the focus would stay on the skill that the badge represents.
Of course, this doesn't fulfill the desire to judge a person worthy by
the badges they own, but I've yet to be convinced that's a workable
proposition.
- George
>
> I can picture how to earn/award a badge on TDD: ... For the remote option, I
> could do a video (in the Haines/Martin code-kata style) and post it online.
A third remote option would be to demonstrate to an existing badge
holder over something like Skype.
> I certainly would hate to see the Agile Skill Badge become sought after
> only by collectors who compete to own more than others. As soon as the
> token of skill becomes the goal, instead of the skill itself, it loses
> its value. Perhaps by reducing the control around receiving a badge,
> the focus would stay on the skill that the badge represents.
I'm not following this thinking ... please say a bit more about the
reasoning behind it, and what might work, in your view, for
assigning / permitting / granting badges ...
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Find the simple path to what works and follow it,
always looking for a simpler path. -- Patrick D. Smith
The merit badge analogy never has worked for me. Merit badges are
optional things.
You can earn them in any field you like. The number you get gives you
various ranks
and there's no particular requirement - at least there wasn't in my
day - that they
all fit together in any particular way.
I've always used the analogy of the First class scout card. The card had a
specific list of things to master on it and a place to be "certified"
in that skill.
Generally, you had to actually do things to get an item checked off. I have
fond memories of building a fire (in the rain) and cooking a meal on it so I
could be signed off on that one.
Of course, either one is only an analogy, but the choice of analogy can drive
how something works and it's dangerous to use analogies when most folks
involved have only limited knowledge (I'm guessing) of the actual thing.
That said, I once built an entire training program on the model of the
first class
card and it was extraordinarily successful. In part this was because most of
the foremen using it had experience of my model. I'm not sure there is
anything quite as culturally pervasive today.
Charlie
On 8/2/10 9:18 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
> Hello, George. On Monday, August 2, 2010, at 8:43:29 AM, you
> wrote:
>
>> I certainly would hate to see the Agile Skill Badge become sought after
>> only by collectors who compete to own more than others. As soon as the
>> token of skill becomes the goal, instead of the skill itself, it loses
>> its value. Perhaps by reducing the control around receiving a badge,
>> the focus would stay on the skill that the badge represents.
>
> I'm not following this thinking ... please say a bit more about the
> reasoning behind it, and what might work, in your view, for
> assigning / permitting / granting badges ...
I'm just thinking out loud, here.
The reasoning behind it:
If receiving a badge is contingent on demonstrating to someone that
you've done certain things, then it's quite possible to do those things
only to the extent of that demonstration, and without regard to the
actual benefits of the skill you're demonstrating. We see this attitude
all the time when students "study for the test" rather than learn the
material.
Why would someone do this? It's because the benefits of the
demonstration have ceased to be a representation of the benefits of the
skill being demonstrated, and have become an end to itself for that
person. The student doesn't care about knowing the material, but about
receiving the good grade. In the same fashion, someone might seek
certification not because they intend to use the skill or knowledge, but
because the certificate is a ticket to a job.
I'm not yet convinced that Agile Skill Badges will be a ticket to a job,
but I can envision them becoming the goal, rather than an indicator, to
people who like to collect things. I notice people who, when
vacationing, visit as many countries as possible during a trip, or go to
as many "sites" as possible withing a city, without allowing themselves
time to understand and appreciate the places they visit. In effect,
collecting "been there" badges has replaced "being there" as the goal.
What might work?
That, I don't know. I'm still struggling with what "work" means in this
context. There are so many different things people want out of
badges/certifications, and in most of our discussions, these things are
not kept explicit. That's what leads to a lot of tangled conversations,
as participants talk with different implicit definitions of "to work"
but as if they were the same.
I don't recall that anyone has made a catalog of things a
badge/certificate might do, or why someone would seek one. Perhaps
someone with edit privileges would like to start such a catalog. As a
start:
* Someone hiring might use a badge/certificate to indicate competence.
* Someone hiring might use a badge/certificate to indicate awareness
and interest.
* Someone hiring might use a badge/certificate as a filter,
eliminating candidates without it.
* Someone hiring might use a badge/certificate as an indicator,
preferring candidates with it.
* Job candidates might use a badge/certificate to demonstrate competence.
* Job candidates might use a badge/certificate to qualify for a job
where it is required.
* Job candidates might use a badge/certificate to get through the
filters of first-line resume sorters.
* Job candidates might use a badge/certificate to demonstrate
awareness and interest.
* Job candidates might use a badge/certificate to differentiate their
credentials from those lacking the badge/certificate.
* People might use a badge/certificate to illustrate their competence.
* People might use a badge/certificate to demonstrate their
superiority over those lacking the badge/certificate.
* People might use a badge/certificate to demonstrate their
superiority over those with fewer badges/certificates.
* People might use a badge/certificate to document their learning
progress.
* People might use a badge/certificate to decorate their badge
sash/display case/wall.
* People might use a badge/certificate to increase the size of their
badge/certificate collection.
These come to my mind at the moment. I'm afraid some of mine seem a bit
cynical, but they represent my fears about badge/certificate programs in
general. I'm sure there are many other goals, including some very noble
ones. I'd love it if others could add such goals to this list.
> That, I don't know. I'm still struggling with what "work" means in this
> context. There are so many different things people want out of
> badges/certifications, and in most of our discussions, these things are
> not kept explicit. That's what leads to a lot of tangled conversations,
> as participants talk with different implicit definitions of "to work"
> but as if they were the same.
Yes ...
I'd like the badges to be an indicator of competence. I say
indicator to keep it vague but have in mind that we'd have some
confidence about there being competence there.
I'd like some of the badges to be easy enough to get that lots of
people would get them.
I'd like all the badges to require at least some work to get.
I'd like the badges to become fairly well known.
I'd like the badges to begin to bring home to the world that such
things do not tell people much about people's competence. I have
this vague notion that if everyone had about 17 certificates and
badges after their name, people would get a clue.
I suppose that's silly ...
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
The model that really matters is the one that people have in
their minds. All other models and documentation exist only to
get the right model into the right mind at the right time.
-- Paul Oldfield
On 8/2/10 10:22 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
> I'd like the badges to be an indicator of competence. I say
> indicator to keep it vague but have in mind that we'd have some
> confidence about there being competence there.
OK, there's another goal (and another user) in that statement. The user
is someone interested in the success of the Agile Skill Badge program.
Let's call that user "sponsor." Let me know if I'm missing or
misrepresenting any of these possible goals:
* A sponsor might want a badge/certificate to be a good indicator
(though not a guarantee) that the holder has a particular competence.
> I'd like some of the badges to be easy enough to get that lots of
> people would get them.
* A sponsor might want a badge/certificate to have enough
desirability/usefulness that the effort in creating it is not wasted.
> I'd like all the badges to require at least some work to get.
I'll assume that you don't intend "some work" to include "cajoling the
badge awarder" or "finding loopholes in the system."
* A sponsor might want the badge/certificate to represent some minimum
effort, which presumably would require some learning of the skill.
> I'd like the badges to become fairly well known.
Hmmm... Is there a different goal here than "lots of people would get
them?"
> I'd like the badges to begin to bring home to the world that such
> things do not tell people much about people's competence. I have
> this vague notion that if everyone had about 17 certificates and
> badges after their name, people would get a clue.
* A sponsor might want a badge/certificate to represent only an
estimation of a small portion of a person's competence, so that people
will not rely too heavily on badges/certificates.
> I suppose that's silly ...
Not in my estimation, but perhaps I'm silly also.
- George
P.S. Would someone please start a page of potential goals on the wiki?
Thank you, Richard. Perhaps you could append the "sponsor" goals, also.
Do you think this catalog of goals might be worth a separate page?
--
> I just want to avoid another [C]SM / [C]SPO reaction by the community. Who
> needs tests that can't tell anything about it, since you should show real
> practice and not only theory?
> I think we need to work more focused on becoming an influence, not an
> authority.
> We need to find an identity with other people in the community.
> The market can tell who has authority or not. This is related to your
> question about having mentors in local communities or something. I think it
> is possible to create mentors, but not easy to scale.
Cool ... could you sharpen this up by saying more specifically what
you think should be done ... and what should NOT be done?
Thanks,
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
A long range weather forecast should be obtained before leaving,
as weather conditions are extremely unpredictable. --Natal Daily News
--
Monday, August 2, 2010, 7:36:07 AM, you wrote:
> On Aug 2, 3:25 am, D.André Dhondt <d.andre.dho...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yet I don't see how to evaluate an entire pillar-- what is a Gold-level
>> Badge in Technical Excellence? Is there a pre-requisite for passing other
>> badges, or is it that we just nominate a few people and let them figure it
>> out from there?
> I couldn't see how either, but it seemed from the feedback I had
> received at the time that a "pillar" badge was what people wanted. I'm
> not sure why - perhaps it's because 7 badges seems like a number that
> could be obtained quickly (and people are looking mostly for something
> to say "hire me" rather than something that says "my peers have
> recognized that I am skilled in the area of....").
Hmmm. That "quickly" statement bothers me. I've been doing this agile
stuff for a decade, or so, and I think I still have quite a ways to go
to reach a Gold in the pillars.
Personally I've been on both the hiring and being hired side of the
equation. As a hiring authority, "my peers have recognized that I am
skilled in the area of...." is exactly what I'm looking for as one of
the "hire me" qualifiers.
I definitely think it makes sense to define the initial badges at a
smaller granularity than the pillars.
--
Doug Swartz
Out of curiosity, if there was a badge for each of the seven pillars,
which badge do you think would be most valuable to you? Do you believe
you already have the skills to earn it, or will you need a mentor?
...I've been trying to think about how these Agile badges relate to other merit systems. The three systems that work well and seem most analogous to me are: StackOverflow badges; Scout badges; and martial arts belts.
On 8/5/10 4:59 AM, D.André Dhondt wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:48 AM, Ben Fulton <benmar...@gmail.com
> <mailto:benmar...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> ...I've been trying to think about how these Agile badges relate to
> other merit systems. The three systems that work well and seem
> most analogous to me are: StackOverflow badges; Scout badges; and
> martial arts belts.
>
>
> All this really begs the question--can you have badges without making
> some sort of value judgement / implicit endorsement of the person's
> future potential? Isn't that certification? Isn't that what ASP is
> trying to avoid?
Certainly boy scout merit badges don't make that sort of
judgment/endorsement. They say that, to the satisfaction of some
mentor, you've done a small checklist of things. There is no claim that
you did them particularly well.
--
________________________________________________________________
> Certainly boy scout merit badges don't make that sort of
> judgment/endorsement. They say that, to the satisfaction of some
> mentor, you've done a small checklist of things. There is no claim that
> you did them particularly well.
Well, "made fire with two sticks" implies you got a fire going ...
so there's probably some minimum performance level ... :)
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Some things are impossible. And some things people say are
impossible -- because they don't know how to do them. -- Ron Loyd
> Scout Merit Badges are what I'd like to avoid. I'm not interested in helping
> to build the self esteem of practitioners by granting them tokens for
> completing specific tasks. I'm much more interested in a valid reliable
> means of assessing and recognizing competency.
I suspect this statement may be undervaluing two things:
1. the scouting program's system;
2. the value of doing specific tasks as a way of becoming
competent.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
To tolerate a problem is to insist on it. -- Software for Your Head
On 8/5/10 7:39 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
> Hello, George. On Thursday, August 5, 2010, at 6:41:17 AM, you
> wrote:
>
>> Certainly boy scout merit badges don't make that sort of
>> judgment/endorsement. They say that, to the satisfaction of some
>> mentor, you've done a small checklist of things. There is no claim that
>> you did them particularly well.
>
> Well, "made fire with two sticks" implies you got a fire going ...
> so there's probably some minimum performance level ... :)
Yes, but as I recall, it means I did it once, under supervision, with
advice... :-)
Certainly boy scout merit badges don't ... claim that you did them particularly well.
I'm much more interested in a valid reliable means of assessing and recognizing competency.
I could see an argument fordoing so in the future (if you want to improve your skills in a
certain area, try and get a job with one of the companies that is
recognized for practicing that skill).
1) At no point should any money change hands associated with the badgenomination.
2)...two people with the same set of badges will not be equal in skill.
I'm looking at a system where an aspirant would need to garner supportfrom (be sponsored by?) 3 people at a higher level.
> So, if you met a kid with a merit badge on knots, you wouldn't expect the
> kid to be able to recommend a usable knot for tying your boat to the shore,
> or for connecting a hammock to a tree? I certainly would. The particular
> knot may not be as suitable as a sailboat captain's advice, but I'd think it
> would be good enough to hold.
My recollection is that part of what one learns in the knots badge
is what they're good for. I still know how to hitch a boat and could
tie a bowline if I had to.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Analysis kills spontaneity.
The grain once ground into flour germinates no more. -- Henri Amiel
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Michael "Doc" Norton <
> michael...@leandog.com> wrote:
>> I'm much more interested in a valid reliable means of assessing and
>> recognizing competency.
> I think you're not alone. Yet I don't know if it's possible to do this in a
> trustworthy way.
I have these main objectives with this stuff:
- set forth a map of all the things one needs to know to be good.
- encourage people to try to learn things, in the hope that they'll
discover the joy of learning and doing.
- blanket the world with trinkets, certificates, and badges, in the
hope that people will learn not to over-value them.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Improvement stops when we start believing that
ideas about how to improve are insulting.
On 8/5/10 8:25 AM, Richard J Foster wrote:
> most
> certifications have a single point of control they will (in my
> opinion) be more homogeneous than the proposed badge system.
I'm not sure that's true other than where a standardized test is
administered, and even then there can be variances in how it's given.
Can you give examples of certifications with a single point of control?
I mostly concur.
On 8/5/10 9:29 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:
> Hello, D.André. On Thursday, August 5, 2010, at 9:02:23 AM, you
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Michael "Doc" Norton<
>> michael...@leandog.com> wrote:
>
>>> I'm much more interested in a valid reliable means of assessing and
>>> recognizing competency.
>
>> I think you're not alone. Yet I don't know if it's possible to do this in a
>> trustworthy way.
Doc, trust is never absolute. I'd rather shoot for "good enough" and
let people decide for themselves how much they trust it. They'll do
that anyway, and you'll never gain everyone's trust.
> I have these main objectives with this stuff:
>
> - set forth a map of all the things one needs to know to be good.
s/all/a bunch/
> - encourage people to try to learn things, in the hope that they'll
> discover the joy of learning and doing.
In addition to "try to learn," also "learn to try."
> - blanket the world with trinkets, certificates, and badges, in the
> hope that people will learn not to over-value them.
- George
In addition to "try to learn," also "learn to try."- encourage people to try to learn things, in the hope that they'll
discover the joy of learning and doing.
On 8/5/10 9:01 AM, D.André Dhondt wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 12:41 PM, George Dinwiddie
> <li...@idiacomputing.com <mailto:li...@idiacomputing.com>> wrote:
>
> Certainly boy scout merit badges don't ... claim that you did them
> particularly well.
>
>
> So, if you met a kid with a merit badge on knots, you wouldn't expect
> the kid to be able to recommend a usable knot for tying your boat to the
> shore, or for connecting a hammock to a tree? I certainly would. The
> particular knot may not be as suitable as a sailboat captain's advice,
> but I'd think it would be good enough to hold.
Maybe, maybe not.
When I got my merit badge on knots, I still tied a bowline wrong more
than 50% of the time. It wasn't until I learned to tie one with one
hand that I learned to reliably make the first loop the right way. And
I knew kids who still ended up with granny knots when they intended a
square knot.
I would expect that they know that there are different types of knots
and that some are better than others for a given application. And isn't
that enough? A 13-year-old with an awareness of knots is ahead of the
typical 13-year-old.
I wouldn't, however, expect that they know an appropriate knot for /my/
application, any more than I'd expect a programming candidate to know
how to program /my/ application. I'd expect them to know that there are
choices to be made, to have made reasonable choices on projects in the
past, and to have some idea how to learn to make reasonable choices on
my project in the future.
On 8/5/10 9:47 AM, D.André Dhondt wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 3:39 PM, George Dinwiddie
> <li...@idiacomputing.com <mailto:li...@idiacomputing.com>> wrote:
>
> - encourage people to try to learn things, in the hope that they'll
> discover the joy of learning and doing.
>
>
> In addition to "try to learn," also "learn to try."
>
>
> There is no try. Do, or do not.
I know you intend that as a joke, but it saddens me. I'm dealing with a
client right now where the managers are spending lots of time deciding
the "right way" to move in test automation, with no experiments to give
them data. <sigh/>
> There is no try. Do, or do not.
From my cookies file ...
In programming, do, or undo. There is always try. --Yoda
A lot of preconceptions can be dismissed when you actually try
something out. -- Bruce Eckel
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail
better. --Samuel Beckett
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
I know you intend that as a joke, but it saddens me. I'm dealing with a client right now where the managers are spending lots of time deciding the "right way" to move in test automation, with no experiments to give them data. <sigh/>
On 8/5/10 10:14 AM, D.André Dhondt wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 3:51 PM, George Dinwiddie
> <li...@idiacomputing.com <mailto:li...@idiacomputing.com>> wrote:
>
> I know you intend that as a joke, but it saddens me. I'm dealing
> with a client right now where the managers are spending lots of time
> deciding the "right way" to move in test automation, with no
> experiments to give them data. <sigh/>
>
>
> So the comment, "learn to try" is in the context of learning to use the
> scientific method? Interesting, because I had read it as encouraging
> curiosity and experimentation--not exactly the same.
No, I hadn't thought about the scientific method at all. I do think it
worthwhile to get a practice to work before making it the standard,
though.
http://blog.gdinwiddie.com/2007/01/16/make-it-work-before-you-make-it-standard/
I presume that there's no subjective component to the grading of these
tests?
> Your words strike me with something that hasn't occurred to me before. In
> martial arts, it takes a long time to acquire skill, but the sensei is there
> the whole time, leading students on, bit by bit. The sensei knows, even
> without the performance at the test itself, whether the student is deserving
> of the new level. The test is more about ceremony, acknowledging the person
> has worked hard at acquiring the appropriate skills.
Yes. It is bad form in many arts to let a student try for a belt
that he cannot attain. (I suppose one might do it sometimes to teach
a lesson.)
> The point I'm trying to make is that MAYBE the only way we can have reliable
> rankings/certifications (and I know that's not what ASP is about), is
> through a significant and personal mentoring relationship. Not very
> scalable, but I think some of it could be done online for some skills.
Even then, it would be subject to drift and to the possibility of
conflict of interest. As we are human, we may be doomed to that.
> All this really begs the question--can you have badges without making some
> sort of value judgement / implicit endorsement of the person's future
> potential?
You could certainly have badges that you just declare yourself ready
for. That would be free of judgment on the part of another. It would
also allow anyone to collect all the badges without any ability at
all.
Even unscrupulous people aside, this is risky. In the TDD classes
that Chat and I recently taught, our host had asked the participants
to self-classify on TDD skill level, so that he could assign pairs.
A number of people assessed themselves High. It took us a couple of
hours to identify which ones were mistaken.
> Isn't that certification? Isn't that what ASP is trying to avoid?
That is one model we have talked about, just providing the map and
the definitions. I was talking with someone the other day who is
engaged in defining an Agile "curriculum", with intention to make it
free to copy but owning it in an organization that does and endorses
training. I believe that approach is inherently corrupt, and that
more than one organization will do it.
It's a puzzlement. I'm not even sure what to want any more.
Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
www.xprogramming.com/blog
Thousands of years ago, the first man discovered how to make fire.
He was probably burned at the stake he had taught his brothers to
light - Howard Roark (The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand)
Revolutionary development of mathematics was possible without any kind of
certificates (including badges).
Offer to the (software or mathematics) comunity a relevant problem to be
solved and wait for the applied solutions. Some of them enhance current
techniques (and current skills). Others, just combine some known
techniques.
Like in mathematics, it's better to share valuable known solutions than to
enumerate a list of skilled developers... World is dynamic and new
problems arise everyday. It's not a good idea to be so conservative and
choose to put in the hands of "the best ones" the future. Why not just to
share the problem (the harder ones, the more relevant ones) and put the
solutions in evidence? Almost any developer/mathematician can evaluate
individual solutions. Customers can choose solutions according to their
contexts.
As an alternative to certificates, I heard the term "reputation" for the
first time from Dr. Tore Dyba. I like this concept, specially if we make
the solutions shine, in name of continuous scientific and craft
improvement.
> Software developer skills are very similar to mathematician skills.
That's an interesting claim. I think you need to justify it.
-----
Brian Marick, independent consultant
Mostly on agile methods with a testing slant
Author of /Programming Cocoa with Ruby/
www.exampler.com, www.exampler.com/blog, www.twitter.com/marick
Same here. This is what I am looking for, I don't care about the means,
only the result. Badges might work. Keep on discussing, it's extremely
interesting.
--
- Agile Poodle
- http://www.jussimononen.info/
- http://www.twitter.com/agilepoodle
Hi Ian,
For example, if one blogs or tweets often, participates in mailing list
discussions and is otherwise visible it might indicate that they have
real interest in agile stuff. If you are willing to spend your
/precious/ time writing and discussing agile stuff and how you do it
must be worth /some/ credit.
That could be a beginning.