What the Agile Alliance Australia should be
Mark Mansour
Agile Alliance Australia should be [http://stateofflux.com/2010/01/29/
what-the-agile-alliance-australia-should-be/]. I'd like to run the
discussion from the blogpost here so it reaches the broadest group of
interested people. I'm sure you guys will have an opinion!
I'm going to be at the Melbourne A3 meeting on Tuesday night. I'd
love to have the broad discussion here on the mailing list, but if
there is something you'd like to tell me in person, then please find
me on Tuesday night.
Finally, I believe both Sydney and Perth have had city meetups. I'd
love to know how they went and if there are any lessons we can learn
from those meetups.
Mark
--
Mark Mansour
Founder, Agile Bench
http://agilebench.com/
Chris
For memberships, what are the direct benefits that companies/
individuals will receive from paying a membership fee that would
otherwise not have or have access to via alternative zero cost means?
Whilst I understand the reasons stated on the blog post for the need
for money, I have found many types of paid memberships do no bring
value back to what is being paid. I find it hard to justify the cost,
especially when trying to get my company to pay for membership.
Chris
Mark Mansour
For memberships, what are the direct benefits that companies/
individuals will receive from paying a membership fee that would
otherwise not have or have access to via alternative zero cost means?
Whilst I understand the reasons stated on the blog post for the need
for money, I have found many types of paid memberships do no bring
value back to what is being paid. I find it hard to justify the cost,
especially when trying to get my company to pay for membership.
Chris
> Founder, Agile Benchhttp://agilebench.com/
On Jan 29, 1:04 pm, Mark Mansour <m...@agilebench.com> wrote:
> I've put a blog post together with my thoughts on what I think the
> Agile Alliance Australia should be [http://stateofflux.com/2010/01/29/
> what-the-agile-alliance-australia-should-be/]. I'd like to run the
> discussion from the blogpost here so it reaches the broadest group of
> interested people. I'm sure you guys will have an opinion!
>
> I'm going to be at the Melbourne A3 meeting on Tuesday night. I'd
> love to have the broad discussion here on the mailing list, but if
> there is something you'd like to tell me in person, then please find
> me on Tuesday night.
>
> Finally, I believe both Sydney and Perth have had city meetups. I'd
> love to know how they went and if there are any lessons we can learn
> from those meetups.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Mark Mansour
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Mark Mansour
ma...@agilebench.com
http://agilebench.com/
Andy Kelk
points have been covered before.
My comments:
- The board of AAA should be small. The way to reduce workload on the
board members would be to co-opt volunteers (from within or outside of
the board) to take on specific projects.
- I think the current proposed membership structure/rates are sound. I
agree that there needs to be benefit to an individual for membership.
For example, if there were a nominal charge for a local chapter
meeting, then members would get in free.
- Is there a plan to formally incorporate the AAA as an association?
This requires a body/committee in each state/territory that it's
incorporated in and could get unwieldy quite quickly.
- If no formalisation of local chapters exists then there needs to be,
at least, a nominated representative for each local chapter who could
be (but doesn't have to be) on the board.
Andy
ShaneH
I have some thoughts & comments I'd like to throw into the mix:
My feling is that the primary purpose of the A3/AAA should be to
"promote the takeup and adoption of software development approaches
based on Agile princilpes and values (a-la-the manifesto) by
individuals and organisations across Australasia" (I'm New Zealand
based) or something of this nature. Providing access to individuals
and knowledge/mentoring/discussions to assist with the attainment of
this goal.
I'm not so sure about the A3 running an annual conference - there are
already a number of Agile focused conferences across Australia and NZ
- adding more to the mix will reduce the numbers at any single event
and actually detract from the networking and sharing that happens. I
would rather see the A3 having a presence at all the events and
providing a common point of view. (Full disclosure - I work for
Software Education and we run some of these conferences).
The A3 should be a place for local groups to come to for advice and
assistance, the centre of a network of contacts and (perhaps) provider
of funding for venues, speakers travel etc. Just being another "user
group" won't add much value and again will probably detract from the
existing groups/events (attention dilution), but being a central place
to come to for help and advice could be of significant value to
potential members.
I am unsure about running online discussion groups etc - there are
already lots of them out there. The A3 might provide links to groups
& discussions that members have found interesting and useful.
As for membership fees, they might be hard to gather from orgaisations
and individuals. I am currently a member of two professional bodies
and four other organisations, some of whom require annual payment just
to be allowed to remain recognised - why should I pay more money to
belong to yet another group? The value proposition would need to be
really good for that.
As for the relationship with "the" Agile Alliance - they ty to keep
out f the hair of local groups, but they do have a programme that
offers funding for assisting local groups to run events. We could at
least tap into this.
These are my thoughts - I look forward to reading others'.
Unfortunately I can't get to the Melbourne event this week - I am sure
there will be lots posted about it.
Cheers
Shane Hastie, MIM, CBAP
Chief Knowledge Engineer
Software Education Associates Ltd
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Korny Sietsma
I'm mixed about running conferences - I agree we have some big conferences already happening, but I'd love to see more small, affordable conferences, like the "ignite" events or other unconferences. If folks are balking at paying a $50 membership fee, what about $2000 conference fees? :-} Such conferences may be fine for senior employees of big corporates, but not particularly useful for the majority of developers.
If membership fees are a problem, possibly the A3 could have something like a "associate" membership, that is very cheap (or free) and gets you no rights, but gets you into the community, onto mailing lists, etc.?
- Korny
kornys on twitter/fb/gtalk/gwave www.sietsma.com/korny
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part
that wonders what the part that isn't thinking
isn't thinking of"
Mark Mansour
> Good article, Mark. I'm new to the AAA so excuse me if some of my
> points have been covered before.
We're all new here :)
> My comments:
>
> - The board of AAA should be small. The way to reduce workload on the
> board members would be to co-opt volunteers (from within or outside of
> the board) to take on specific projects.
Yep, sounds logical.
> - I think the current proposed membership structure/rates are sound. I
> agree that there needs to be benefit to an individual for membership.
> For example, if there were a nominal charge for a local chapter
> meeting, then members would get in free.
I wouldn't want to impose a price, but significantly discounted would
be the hope.
> - Is there a plan to formally incorporate the AAA as an association?
> This requires a body/committee in each state/territory that it's
> incorporated in and could get unwieldy quite quickly.
Yep. Let me expand on what I said in the blog post. I'm thinking
that we only need incorporation if we need money and we only need
money if we need to do something big, and the only really big thing I
can think of is to run a national conference. At least at this stage
of the game.
Does anyone else have opinions on this?
> - If no formalisation of local chapters exists then there needs to be,
> at least, a nominated representative for each local chapter who could
> be (but doesn't have to be) on the board.
A representative structure is a possibility. I haven't through
through the implications but it is definitely one option and I'm not
immediately against it. Anyone else got an opinion?
> Andy
Mark Mansour
> "promote the takeup and adoption of software development approaches
> based on Agile princilpes and values (a-la-the manifesto) by
> individuals and organisations across Australasia" (I'm New Zealand
> based) or something of this nature. Providing access to individuals
> and knowledge/mentoring/discussions to assist with the attainment of
> this goal.
I'd really like the local chapters to do that. I think they have
better access to the community. I want A3 to support the local
chapters in doing that (in whatever way support means).
> I'm not so sure about the A3 running an annual conference - there are
> already a number of Agile focused conferences across Australia and NZ
> - adding more to the mix will reduce the numbers at any single event
> and actually detract from the networking and sharing that happens. I
> would rather see the A3 having a presence at all the events and
> providing a common point of view. (Full disclosure - I work for
> Software Education and we run some of these conferences).
Can you list them?
I would like a conference that we can all, as a community, rally
around. If there is an A3, then I'd like this to be the place where
the AGM is held and the board is elected. Last year Agile 09 served
this purpose.
> The A3 should be a place for local groups to come to for advice and
> assistance, the centre of a network of contacts and (perhaps) provider
> of funding for venues, speakers travel etc. Just being another "user
> group" won't add much value and again will probably detract from the
> existing groups/events (attention dilution), but being a central place
> to come to for help and advice could be of significant value to
> potential members.
I don't see A3 as a user group. I think the local chapters are the
user groups. I just want the A3, if they have the resources, to
support the local chapters.
I see support as:
* a centralised place for co-ordination (like if there are
international speakers, when big issues are announced, etc)
* (given we have $$$) provide funds to local chapters to run events
that promote agile (and it's adoption)
> I am unsure about running online discussion groups etc - there are
> already lots of them out there. The A3 might provide links to groups
> & discussions that members have found interesting and useful.
I'll point to the ruby community. They have consolidated their
mailing lists to "rails-oceania" which has greatly solidified the
community. They are a great example of a thriving and vibrant
community that strengthened with consolidation of resource and kept
the local chapters as their focal points. (they don't have a body
like the A3 as a central point but they've co-ordinated their efforts
online)
> As for membership fees, they might be hard to gather from orgaisations
> and individuals. I am currently a member of two professional bodies
> and four other organisations, some of whom require annual payment just
> to be allowed to remain recognised - why should I pay more money to
> belong to yet another group? The value proposition would need to be
> really good for that.
You have to chose what group is important to you. If you see that an
agile body is the correct alignment for you, then great! It wont be
for everyone. If you did join, then we do have to make it worth your
while. I'm seeing mainly as discounts to local events and a national
conference. You'll also be kept in the loop with events that occur
that would contribute to your professional development. You can get
this all for free by doing the legwork yourself, but hopefully A3 can
save you the time and effort. You'll have to decide if that is worth
paying for.
> As for the relationship with "the" Agile Alliance - they ty to keep
> out f the hair of local groups, but they do have a programme that
> offers funding for assisting local groups to run events. We could at
> least tap into this.
I'm happy to ask them to help us spread the agile word, I just want to
make sure the A3 is setup and run by locals who represent the local
community.
> These are my thoughts - I look forward to reading others'.
Me too. Thanks for taking the time to get this all down Andy.
Mark Mansour
> I agree with most of that blog post - especially the stuff about being a
> "grassroots" agile organisation.
I think that part is very important. Some companies are part of that
grassroots (I just wanted people to understand that I'm not *anti*
company).
> I'm mixed about running conferences - I agree we have some big conferences
> already happening, but I'd love to see more small, affordable conferences,
> like the "ignite" events or other unconferences. If folks are balking at
> paying a $50 membership fee, what about $2000 conference fees? :-} Such
> conferences may be fine for senior employees of big corporates, but not
> particularly useful for the majority of developers.
I think there are room for both styles. I love the grass roots
conferences too and they satisfy the geek in me. I love the more
formal conference too as I get a chance to be introduced to new ideas
an mingle with a wide group of people. Maybe I'm just easily
pleased :)
> If membership fees are a problem, possibly the A3 could have something like
> a "associate" membership, that is very cheap (or free) and gets you no
> rights, but gets you into the community, onto mailing lists, etc.?
This is a detail, which I'm happy to discuss after we get the big
hitters out of the way. Namely, what is the A3 going to look like?
> >> agile-alliance-aus...@googlegroups.com<agile-alliance-austra lia%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/agile-alliance-australia?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > Mark Mansour
> >http://agilebench.com/
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Agile Alliance Australia" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > agile-allian...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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Andy Kelk
> Yep. Let me expand on what I said in the blog post. I'm thinking
> that we only need incorporation if we need money and we only need
> money if we need to do something big, and the only really big thing I
> can think of is to run a national conference. At least at this stage
> of the game.
Then it certainly makes sense to incorporate the A3 in a single state/
territory and to have that as the only incorporated bodies. Local
chapters are then free to run how they want without formalising the
structure for each one.
I think your shaping of the A3 sounds right.
Mike Allen
thing was handed off to a specialist company like Slattery to
organise. Am not sure if any potential losses were underwritten by
any of the sponsors in case they made a loss. However, given the
attendance, I'd expect future events to be profitable. So, why would
someone like Slattery need to involve the A3? I think that an A3
endorsement would increase the revenue from an event, conversely an A3
statement not backing an event would adversely impact revenue I'm
sure.
I don't perceive a daily need for a national organisation, but it does
feel right to me, operating the group in Perth that I have access to a
wider group of people / experience should I need it. Interesting
though that there is not a great deal of chatter on the A3 discussion
board.... something we've managed to get going on the Agile WA
board....
Sorry to not have any clear answers.... my view is that less is
definitely more... BUT... I would really like an A3 conference! (or
more importantly, I don't want all conferences to be run by software /
education vendors).
Mark Henery
valuable thing to have for any conference, meeting or even publication
for that matter. Especially if A3 has good membership from the
Australian Agile leaders. Also, having a national body will only
strengthen the presence of State based A3 chapters so I'm all for it.
I also feel that an A3 organised conference is a great idea, but would
potentially be at the earliest in 2011 - maybe it shouldn't be a
primary mandate for A3 right now.
As for membership, maybe that can be parked for now until some value
can be derived from holding membership. Especially if we can get the
meetups sponsored/catered. If we cant get sponsorship for each of the
meetups then membership can cover catering and the venue when needed -
non members can pay a nominal amount at the door to attend.
Perhaps that can get us started and we revisit the conference idea in
a few months.
Just my two bits.
Cheers,
Mark Henery.
Kevin Bone
which is structured along similar lines to being discussed here.
Small central committee, organises an annual conference, relatively
low membership fee. Has about 1000 members I think. Seems to work
well - the conference is particularly well regarded.
Mark Mansour
I haven't forgotten about the group, I've just been overwhelmed with
some other matters. I'll be back next week.
Mark
BKW
I've got a few thoughts based on my experience organising events for
the Australian Business Analysis Association (ABAA) a few years back.
1) Great to hear "certification" is not part of the plan for the Agile
Alliance Australia - perhaps I'm a little cynical, but I generally see
accreditation/certification (especially when talking about
certifications for Business Analysis) as a money making scheme that
provides minimal value to the individual. I'm much more interested in
networking a knowledge sharing, so great to see your thoughts are
focused on that for the AAA.
2) Getting people to come along to local events usually requires two
things - interesting guest speakers/topics and food/drinks. So agree
with your comments around money - you will need to consider discounts
or free attendance for members vs. an event fee for non-members (say
$20?) - this is really where members gain value over non-members.
Not sure how successful you'll be signing up companies, rather than
individuals, but it's an interesting thought.
Cheers Benn
----
Benn Wheeler
Senior BA, Sensis