-click on the file in the project bin, and use "interpret footage."
That changes the duration of the footage. Not what we're after here.
I thought 24p normal WAS 60i, since the pulldown is done in-camera...
You would think so, but have you actually tried this? Adobe removes the pulldown for you, and there's no way to force it to do otherwise. That has been covered in other threads.
It wouldn't be such a bad situtation, if the automatic, inflexible pulldown removal worked well for 24p Normal. But it doesn't.
(Mind you, this is all for 24p Normal. 24p Advanced works beautifully.)
I know next to nothing about 24P because I have no need of it, but there are several pages of information on it in the PPro online help. One of the items in the section "Capturing, importing, and playing back 24P footage" talks about two methods of frame pull-up for playback. It would be worth trying both settings to see which one produces the best results for you.
Cheers
Eddie
However, these are Preview settings and that is not the problem here. The strobing effect I am speaking of is introduced in Premiere's handling of the footage, and is even present when you export the timeline and open it in another app. (While if you open the original footage in another app, it's fine.)
There are no settings that let you choose how Premiere inteprets the footage, and the method chosed by Adobe is just plain wrong.
(Wrong for 24p Normal footage, that is. Again, for 24p Advanced, everything works great.)
This is not a camera problem.
This is not a capture problem.
This is not a preview-only problem.
This is an Adobe Premiere Pro implementation problem.
It is a 100% reproducable bug.
This bug is experienced not only by me, but also by other Panasonic DVX100/Premiere Pro users. (There are a few of us.)
Other programs that handle the footage (Vegas, Scenalyzer, Media Player) do not display the strobing. Premiere not only displays the strobing, but propigates it into rendered AVIs and MPEGs, and DVDs. With the smae footage, Vegas does not show the same strobing, and it's rendered output is fine.
Edit the 24p normal footagein a 60i timeline in Premiere Pro, but don't render the output in Pro because the output will be screwed up as described earlier in this thread. (Even in a 60i timeline, PPro will treat the footage as 24p, will botch the pulldown removal, and will insist on re-pulling down the botched footage. A red "render" bar will appear over the footage in the timeline.)
Instead, open the PremierePro project in After Effects. After Effects will interpret the footage from 60i, and you can render the timeline from there.
You can also edit in a 24p timeline within Premiere and import that into After Effects, but for each 24p clip you have to interpret footage.
But this doesn't let Adobe off the hook -- it's awkward and not all users have After Effects.
Adobe -- fix this bug!
> Rendering in AE is going to take a while!
That's why I'd really like Adobe to fix this bug!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not out to make trouble. I LOVE Adobe Premiere. I'm just tired of people on the DVX100 forums (the people towards whom this feature is aimed) saying "Use *Vegas* for 24p. It's the only program that handles it and handles in correctly."
Adobe, fix this problem!
In 24p Normal, it shows up on import, as soon as the 2-3 pulldown is removed.
In 24p Advanced, it shows up on EXPORT, when the 2-3 pulldown is added for dumping to tape.
Adobe, this big new feature is starting to look like a disaster.
So at what point do we assume that Adobe either doesn't know or doesn't care about fixing this problem?
Basically, I cannot edit on PPro 1.5. I have been editing on 1.0 even though I have paid for the upgrade and its just sitting there.
What are the chances that if Adobe does fix this, it will be called 2.0 and cost $200 for an upgrade????
Just a check box... just a simple little checkbox... ;)
lucas
The problem with Adobe is that their sales are still very strong, they are market leader in print and publishing and that's where they make their big money.
They are nowhere near as competent in digital video but because of good sales in print and publishing it doesn't bother them. It's a shame but as mentioned don't expect miracles to happen with any reported bugs.
I would hope that Adobe would have a downloadable patch available within
a few weeks.
as would i.
BabaG
I would guess they will indeed add a bug fix between versions if the defect
is that glaring.
If history repeats, the next bug fix will be in 8 months and cost $99.
Thanks for taking on this "actionable item" ;) I have been sitting on this problem for some time hoping it would solve itself... or someone would get through to support.
In any case, also check out dvxuser.com, plenty of people are trying to solve the same problem as well.
As per your workaround of changing the "interperet footage" setting, I tried this some time ago and it did not work for me. It ended up playing my footage to at an incorrect speed (as if had increased the speed of the clip). I will try it again when i get back to my machine and hopefully provide a more detail.
Thanks,
lucas
My 24p-normal (F5) footage definately speeds up when I change the "interperet footage" to 29.97. The motion is fast and the audio is obviously at a higher pitch. When I lay down the footage without changing the "interperet footage" setting it is jerky (even more so after I render the area because premiere sees the footage as having a different rate than the project).
So, in other words, that workaround does not work for me. Now, if it works for you, this is strange.
lucas
oh, and the strobing is always there as well ;)
BabaG
I have to ask. How do I put in a bug report? All I can find is feature request.
Others should do it too, perhaps.
Thanks
lucas
It's very unfortunate, but I don't know what else to do.
Please note: You will not get a response to your bug submission.
----------------------------------------------
In otherwords....... don't hold your breath.
thanks,
BabaG
I'm using Ppro 1.0 to edit my footage because 1.5 is unusable in its current form because it cannot handle 24p correctly, and it won't even let me disable the pulldown function. If I didn' have version 1.0, I wouldn't be able to edit at all.
And we hear nothing from Adobe. How do you get a little 'hello' so we even think they may know about this.
I know we all complain (i do too) that they nailed us with a $99 dollar upgrade for a program we bought only months earlier.
But seeing the fix to this problem would at least be A FIX TO THIS PROBLEM ;)
I'd rather complain about a $99 dollar upgrade and be working, than complain about the fact that I cannot even use the program.
Lucas, I would be very interested to have a look at a 24P clip. Do you have one that is less than 100MB? If so I can give you details of where to upload it.
Cheers
Eddie
yes i do. I have been using this same clip to show other people too. Check out the strobing in the top left, in the sky.
<http://www.lucasmerino.com/premiere/strobe.mov>
thanks,
lucas
How can I get your email address?
Lucas, sorry, I meant I would like access to the actual file captured from your source, not a compressed export from PPro. That is I would like an uncompressed or DV AVI file to work with.
Cheers
Eddie
Lucas, go to GreatNow.com <http://greatnow.com> and log in with Username "app.greatnow.com" and password "appro". Click on the "HTML File Manager" link, then click on the "upload" button and upload the clip. There should be 100MB available.
Thanks
Eddie
thanks
Here's a little picture I made to illustrate the problem with the waveform monitor.
<http://www.southave.com/kevin/f5flickering.gif>
This shows the artifacts PPro introduces into 24p Normal footage. The "assembled" frames are clipped to 100 IRE.
24p Advanced footage also shows the problem, but only on Export to Tape when PPro introduces its own Pulldown.
Thanks
I'm wanting to get this version because of the DVX100 support, but not if it doesn't work right.
In the case of 24p Noraml, there is no way to avoid this problem.
In the case of 24p Advanced, Export to Tape is the EASIEST way to demostrate the problem, but it creeps up elsewhere as well -- anytime you output your 24p timeline as 29.97 NTSC.
So if you export your 24p video to a 23.976 Progressive MPEG for DVD, you will not see the strobing. But if you export to a 29.97 MPEG, you WILL see the strobing.
However, if you Export your file as an NTSC AVI or QuickTime, you WILL see the strobing.
And, as I've said before, if you Export to Tape, you will see the strobing.
ADOBE, FIX THIS PROBLEM!
Actually, this morning I had a daydream about telling you guys that I received my copy of Vegas today... it was weird.
BabaG
If I look at the YC Waveform display there is a green bar on the right hand side showing the min / max IRE values. By looking at each frame, here is what is reproduced for the TOP IRE level...
FRAME 1 - 110
FRAME 2 - 110
FRAME 3 - 110
FRAME 4 - 110
FRAME 5 - 106
FRAME 6 - 110
.
.
.
FRAME 10 - 106
By adding a Broadcast Colors filter and limiting the IRE to 106, the strobing is significantly reduced, but not entirely eliminated. This does not happen in my Avid system. (same footage)
It does not seem to matter whether the footage is captured in a "panasonic" template, or a straight 60i project. The strobing is still there. All 60i footage looks normal on the scopes.
BTW- I didn't come up with clipping on my own - I think I read something like this on DVXuser. The difference is some people seem to be having the problem every 4 frame (mine is consistently every fifth), and they seem to have different IRE levels that work best for them (110, 100, etc.)
Whatever particulars for your project, this is a bug that makes me look less than my best in front of clients. Adobe needs to address this before their next major release.
-axel
I have been able to reduce or eliminate strobing on several clips by adding the Brightness Contrast Filter and changing the contrast by a very small amount (like 1).
Suddenly the strobing stops.
It just gets curiouser and curiouser.
-axel
The reason the strobing is reduced when applying the Brightness & Contrast video filter is because Brightness & Contrast is an RGB effect. RGB effects clip highlight and shadow information from the range of possible Y values (native YUV video data can extend above and below 0..100IRE). Once every frame's pixel values fall within 0..100 IRE, the strobing is reduced, although if you were to view the frames using the YC Waveform display mode (accessed using the Output popup menu in the transport controls along the lower edge of the Monitor window), you would still be able to make out some clipping.
To better illustrate this clipping, try applying the ProcAmp video filter on a video clip with no other effects, and adjust the brightness and contrast parameters in the ProcAmp video filter such that the highlight and shadow values extend above and below 0..100 IRE (using the YC Waveform display mode to see your results).
Then apply an RGB effect (such as Brightness & Contrast) and scrub through the clip while viewing it with the YC Waveform display mode.
If you turn the Brightness & Contrast video filter on and off (using the Filter switch to the left of the Filter name in the Effect Controls window) while viewing the YC Waveform display, you should be able to see the extent of the clipping when switching between YUV and RGB representations of the video.
Regards,
David Vasquez
Premiere Pro Team
If Brightness & Contrast isn't the best workaround, can you recommend another?
Thanks
Kevin
Please use the ProcAmp video filter to bring your highlights and shadows within range, because it is able to process input frames that use the full range of YUV values, without the pre-clipping caused by the conversion to RGB that is required when using RGB video filters.
Although you will have slightly reduced dynamic range, processing your video using ProcAmp to bring highlights and shadows within 0..100IRE will allow you to avoid the clipping which is introduced whenever RGB-only effects or processing takes place.
Please note that the above described ProcAmp processing is only necessary when your video has highlights or shadows outside of 0..100IRE. If your video does not have pixels which extend into that range, then ProcAmp processing is not necessary.
What the hell? I think I might have to return this product and consider pirating the previous versions of the software, which I've used before with no problems.
I have printed out the most informative posts about this issue to show to various folks on the team.
However, my employer prohibits me from commenting on fixes or future releases.
I hope your team also knows that users of DVX100 24p Normal (as opposed to 24p Advanced) footage may *not* want the pulldown removed at all. So I hope that a useful "Interpret Footage" command is somewhere in the future as well.
If you need any testing assets or beta testers for DVX100-related fixes or features, please don't hesitate to ask.
Some 24p users are occaisionally having a problem with PPro's pulldown removal getting the cadence wrong and starting on the wrong frame, resulting in bad interlacing artifacts in what should be progressive footage.
This is another argument for an "Interpret Footage" command that works with 24p.
If you are not familiar with the Premiere forum on DVX100User.com, you probably should check it out.
Thanks
Kevin
Maybe I'm just thick, but I can't seem to get this filter to reduce the strobing at all. Is there a setting I'm missing here?
-axel
My employer has an accounting policy which prohibits me from giving away a filter preset that would accomplish this task, so I will walk you through the steps that are required to create it yourself. (If anyone could post this filter preset to share with others, I'm sure other users would appreciate it.)
If you take a look at the screenshot Kevin Corcoran made of the waveform monitor (in posting #53 in this thread) to illustrate the strobing issue, you can see that one of the frames is clipped, while the other frames are not.
By bringing the shadows and highlights of the unclipped frames within the range of the clipped frame (somewhere around 0..100IRE) the strobing effect should be reduced (although not completely eliminated - there is likely to still be some subtle chroma strobing as well).
To fix an entire clip of video in this manner requires keyframing to only process the unclipped frames, and not the clipped frames.
As a time saver, Premiere Pro 1.5 has a preset filter capability that allows you to make a copy of your keyframes that you can use over and over again on additional clips.
1. Apply the ProcAmp filter onto the strobing clip.
2. Scrub the CTI to the first frame that has its values clipped to approx. 0..100IRE.
3. In the Effect Controls window, click the small watch switch buttons to the left of the Brightness and Contrast parameters in the ProcAmp filter.
4. Right click each of the keyframes and choose "Hold" interpolation mode.
5. Step one frame forward to the adjacent unclipped frame (it should have values with more dynamic range - that extend vertically a greater distance than the clipped frame's values do).
6. Adjust the Brightness and Contrast parameters in the ProcAmp filter such that the unclipped frame's values fall within approx. 0..100IRE. (The dynamic range, or vertical extent of the values of the frame should now look similar to that of the previous frame.)
7. Right click each of the keyframes you created in step 6 and choose "Hold" interpolation mode.
8. Click and drag out a marquee with the mouse to select all four of the keyframes you have made.
9. Right-click anywhere in the keyframe view in the Effect Controls window and choose "Copy" from the contextual menu that appears.
10. Move the CTI down to the next clipped frame position.
11. Right click anywhere in the keyframe view in the Effect Controls window and choose "Paste" from the contextual menu.
12. Repeat steps 9 through 11, doubling the number of keyframes you copy and paste each time, until you have enough keyframes to fill your entire clip.
13. Right-click on the title of the ProcAmp effect in the Effect Controls window and choose "Save Preset...".
14. In the "Save Preset" dialog, choose the "Anchor to In Point" option. (You don't want the "Scale" option because the strobing is at a fixed frequency that doesn't change from clip to clip.)
15. Name your preset with an easy to remember name, such as "Destrobe", and click OK.
16. The preset you just created should now appear in the Effects window ready for you to use on other clips.
You can now apply this filter preset to other clips that have super white highlights and super black shadows without having to repeat the above process.
Please post again if any of the above steps are unclear. If you still cannot get satisfactory results, please consider posting a very short snippet of the problematic video (just a few seconds will do) on a web page or FTP site, and we can walk through this issue in more detail using a portion of your specific clip.
I understand Adobe's policies mentioned in this thread regarding restrictions over employees announcing pending fixes and such. These rules make a lot of sense to help protect the corporation. I appreciate whenever Adobe team members stick their neck out on this (sometimes brutal) forum to help inform the user base. There are obvious personal risks taken whenever you and others speak up here. In taking these risks, you demonstrate a dedication to the products you work on and your companies customers. I have encountered this attitude from most of the Adobe employees that I have had contact with and this is, in part, why I continue to primarily work in the Adobe product space.
However, I would like to see Adobe management amend their policies moderately to officially acknowledge significant bugs and to let the users know that they aware of the problem and what their strategy is for remedying the issue or not. The user base gets significantly frustrated simply over the lack of acknowledgment and this causes much ill will of many users against Adobe.
I would suggest the following management responses to known issues with a product's advertised feature set:
Issue list:
We aware that an issue exists under the following circumstances / scenarios _____. We are aware that that it results in ____.
Workarounds:
The following explains a suggested workaround to this issue: _____. The workaround is limited in the following ways _____.
Adobe action:
1. We have no plans to address this issue at this time.
2. We will address this issue in a future release of the product.
3. We are investigating the possibility of releasing a bug fix patch but have not established a timeframe for doing so.
4. We are planning on releasing a bug fix patch within the following time frame _____.
I realize that implementing this type of communication policy would be a big step for Adobe. But I think that it would go a long way toward improving the perception of the company with existing and potential customers. With other Adobe products, we have seen recent bug fixes and release patches. Every reputable software company releases patches from time to time. Releasing a patch is in affect an addition that there was an issue. Certainly if Adobe is planning to release a patch, a policy ammendment that allows stating that a patch will be released is no worse than the current policy. You will obviously not fix every issue found and people will complain about it when you decide not to. But you will eliminate so many more complaints for issues that you state that you will address even before they are fixed.
For now, the problem is avoidable in some workflows (for example, shoot 24p Advanced, export to 24p DVD) and for cases where it's unavoidable (shooting 24p Normal, exporting to tape) there are workarounds.
I hope Adobe takes their time and gets 24p right, rather than rush another half-implemented version to users.
Is the Broadcast Colors filter a good choice? For this problem I find it more intuitive than the ProcAmp filter, because it deals with IRE numbers rather than percentages.
Or is it, too, an RGB effect? How can we tell the RGB effects from the YUV?
Thanks,
Kevin Corcoran
Smileys aside, at this point I have downloaded Sony Vegas and am using it to edit my 24p footage seeing that PPro 1.5 does not work with with 24pNormal. I have 25 more days to decide......
lucas
You know you might be seeing a flicker of overstauration from the monitors. It might not be a software problem. It might be a refresh problem.
If you want great info on 24 check out Adamwilt.com
Jason
www.jetstreamer.com
What concerns me is 1) how adobe handles this problem (they should have seen this coming -don't they test for this stuff prior to release?), and 2) if adobe again replaces the word "fix" with the word "fee", then I'm walking.
So there's actually more to this than just fixing a promised 24p issue here. It had a lot to do with customer loyalty. I wonder if the premiere marketing reps are reading this thread - if they did, they should be banging on the engineers doors to get this fixed.
This is a bug reported by many users who have had trouble with PPro's 24p support. It has been acknowledged by Adobe representatives in this forum.
Anyone who tries to use 24p is going to run into these problems. A thread on the user forums is insufficient support.
Adobe, please create a knowledge base article on this topic, and add it to the top issues list on the PPro support page.
This makes me feel Adobe doesn't respect their customers. I keep hearing the word Vegas from other editors, many of whom are other Adobe users.
I just spent $2100 on Adobe products. Yet, when I spend $21 at a restaurant, lets say, I receive more respect, and when a problem arises it fixed in due order.
I thought for certain Adobe would be addressed this issue by now.
It makes me disappointed in being so loyal to Adobe products.
I sincerely want to have the Premiere team fix this problem - as I'm not looking to jump ship to Vegas or Final Cut. I'm willing to help out in whatever way possible.
Please make this right.
I emailed Panasonic tech support and explained this situation in the hopes of some kind of response. i know this is not their problem, but if Adobe claims to support their camera specifically, yet we know it has these problems, perhaps there is something to be gained here.
If I was Panasonic and I read this thread, I would consider this pretty bad pr for possible dvx100 customers.
> Can it be done???
So you are saying you want to convert a 60i timeline to a 24p? I'm not sure it can be done automatically, but you could try cutting and pasting your clips from the old timeline to the new.
BabaG warns about the bugs, but to be fair -- If you shot in 24p Advanced and will be going out to a progressive 24p DVD, PPro 1.5 will generally give you good results.
If you shot in 24p Normal, from the start you will possibly encounter the strobing bug described in this long thread.
If you export to tape, with either 24p advanced or 24p Normal, your output tape may have strobing problems as well.
With either 24p format, you MUST turn on Scene Detection when you capture (or carefully manually log your scenes), otherwise you will encounter bad interlacing artifacts, since PPro automatically applies the pulldown removal based on the first few frames and you cannot change the cadence it applies.
In some cases, even if you scene detect, PPro may get it wrong and introduce interlacing artifacts into what should be progressive footage. This can happen if the break between shots on your tape was rough, perhaps because of dirty heads. In such a case there's nothing you can do other than manually log and capture your footage, making sure your in point is several frames into the shot.
(For me, the interlacing artifacts are the most frustrating part of PPro's 24p problems -- you can get around the strobing issues by using effects to limit the luminance of your footage. But dealing with the pulldown removal problems can be very time-consuming.)
Oh, and PPro 1.5 ALWAYS applies the pulldown removal, so if for some reason you wanted to use your 24p footage in a 60i timeline -- for example to mix with standard NTSC footage -- you are in for long render times, and are better off in PPro 1.0.
And Finally, while other programs (like Vegas) include 24p MPEG-DVD export presets, Adobe neglected to include 24p presets in the Adobe Media Encoder, so most users have trouble getting a good 24p DVD. Some settings are obvious (Frame Rate: 23.976, Progressive) while others are not (N Frames should be "12".)
That summarizes the issues with PPro and 24p. I hope it is helpful.